1936 Best of Baseball Project

[jalbright]

This thread will officially kick off the Best of Baseball Project. The whole set of rules will follow, but please note that for this election and this election only, ballots of 20 (twenty) players are required. However, the contributor ballot will only be five names deep. You must also rank the candidates on each ballot you participate in, providing the number at which you have ranked them.

This election will run until 11:59:59 PM EST, December 12, 2008.

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance, or only the first vote will be counted. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, I request that you PM me (jalbright) to ensure that I am aware of the change(s) or make a separate posting in the voting thread. You must let me know the players involved in the changes at a minimum, but it would also help if you added their rankings (before and after). I cannot agree to be responsible for monitoring the thread for any changes voters might make. If I catch them, fine, but if I don't and am not notified, the official count will be what I have been notified of, not what is on the thread.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or death, whichever comes first. The early death rule applies here as well.

9) Each election will run for two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is ineligible, nor are players from any league ineligible. Please note, however, that the standard for including a player is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project. Candidates will not lose eligiblity after becoming eligible except by being elected as either a contributor or player. However, voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

11) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

12) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however.

13) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

14) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

15) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

16) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

17) For any ties straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, take those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

18) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

19) I reserve the right to hold both 19th century and Negro League special elections in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in those categories by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that those groups received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the numbers I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from each group.

20) I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing this standard, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

Players list

The players eligible for this election::


Adams Babe 1936
Alexander Pete 1936
Altrock Nick 1936
Anson Cap 1936
Archer Jimmy 1936
Austin Jimmy 1936
Baker Frank 1936
Bancroft Dave 1936
Barnes Ross 1936
Barry Jack 1936
Battin Joe 1936
Beaumont Ginger 1936
Beckley Jake 1936
Bender Chief 1936
Bennett Charlie 1936
Bergen Marty 1936
Bodie Ping 1936
Bond Tommy 1936
Bradley Bill 1936
Breitenstein Ted 1936
Bresnahan Roger 1936
Brouthers Dan 1936
Brown Mordecai 1936
Browning Pete 1936
Burkett Jesse 1936
Burns George 1936
Bush Donie 1936
Cadore Leon 1936
Camnitz Howie 1936
Carey Max 1936
Carrigan Bill 1936
Caruthers Bob 1936
Chance Frank 1936
Chapman Ray 1936
Chase Hal 1936
Chesbro Jack 1936
Childs Cupid 1936
Cicotte Eddie 1936
Clarke Fred 1936
Clarkson John 1936
Coakley Andy 1936
Cobb Ty 1936
Collins Eddie 1936
Collins Jimmy 1936
Collins Shano 1936
Connor Roger 1936
Conroy Wid 1936
Coombs Jack 1936
Coveleski Stan 1936
Crandall Doc 1936
Cravath Gavvy 1936
Crawford Sam 1936
Creighton Jim 1936
Criger Lou 1936
Cross Lave 1936
Cruise Walt 1936
Cummings Candy 1936
Dahlen Bill 1936
Daubert Jake 1936
Davis George 1936
Davis Harry 1936
Delahanty Ed 1936
Dinneen Bill 1936
Doak Bill 1936
Donlin Mike 1936
Donovan Bill 1936
Dooin Red 1936
Doyle Jack 1936
Doyle Larry 1936
Duffy Hugh 1936
Dunlap Fred 1936
Elberfeld Kid 1936
Ens Jewel 1936
Evers Johnny 1936
Ewing Buck 1936
Faber Red 1936
Falkenberg Cy 1936
Fletcher Art 1936
Flick Elmer 1936
Foster Eddie 1936
Foster Rube 1936
Fraser Chick 1936
Galvin Pud 1936
Glasscock Jack 1936
Gleason Kid 1936
Gonzalez Mike 1936
Gore George 1936
Gowdy Hank 1936
Grant Eddie 1936
Grant Frank 1936
Griffith Clark 1936
Groh Heinie 1936
Hahn Noodles 1936
Hamilton Billy 1936
Herzog Buck 1936
Hill Pete 1936
Hinchman Bill 1936
Hines Paul 1936
Hooper Harry 1936
Huggins Miller 1936
Irwin Charlie 1936
Jackson Joe 1936
Jennings Hughie 1936
Johnson Home Run 1936
Johnson Walter 1936
Jones Charley 1936
Jones Fielder 1936
Jordan Tim 1936
Joss Addie 1936
Keefe Tim 1936
Keeler Willie 1936
Kelley Joe 1936
Kelly King 1936
Killefer Bill 1936
Kilroy Matt 1936
Kling Johnny 1936
Knabe Otto 1936
LaJoie Nap 1936
Lange Bill 1936
Larkin Henry 1936
Latham Arlie 1936
Leach Tommy 1936
Leever Sam 1936
Lewis Duffy 1936
Lloyd Pop 1936
Lobert Hans 1936
Long Herman 1936
Lowe Bobby 1936
Luque Dolf 1936
Lyons Denny 1936
Magee Sherry 1936
Maranville Rabbit 1936
Marquard Rube 1936
Mathews Bobby 1936
Mathewson Christy 1936
Mays Carl 1936
McAleer Jimmy 1936
McCarthy Tommy 1936
McCormick Jim 1936
McGinnity Joe 1936
McGraw John 1936
McInnis Stuffy 1936
McLean Larry 1936
McPhee Bid 1936
McVey Cal 1936
Mendez Jose 1936
Milan Clyde 1936
Miller Dots 1936
Moran Pat 1936
Mullane Tony 1936
Murphy Danny 1936
Murray Red 1936
Nichols Kid 1936
O'Leary Charlie 1936
O'Neill Tip 1936
O'Neill Steve 1936
O'Rourke Jim 1936
Orr Dave 1936
Pabor Charlie 1936
Paskert Dode 1936
Pearce Dickey 1936
Peckinpaugh Roger 1936
Peitz Heinie 1936
Perdue Hub 1936
Phillippe Deacon 1936
Pike Lip 1936
Plank Eddie 1936
Poles Spotswood 1936
Quinn Jack 1936
Radbourn Charlie 1936
Raymond Bugs 1936
Redding Dick 1936
Remsen Jack 1936
Rice Sam 1936
Richardson Hardy 1936
Ritchey Claude 1936
Rixey Eppa 1936
Robertson Dave 1936
Rucker Nap 1936
Rudolph Dick 1936
Rusie Amos 1936
Ryan Jimmy 1936
Santop Louis 1936
Schaefer Germany 1936
Schang Wally 1936
Schreckengost Ossie 1936
Schulte Frank 1936
Severeid Hank 1936
Seymour Cy 1936
Sheckard Jimmy 1936
Shocker Urban 1936
Smith Sherry 1936
Sparks Tully 1936
Spaulding Al 1936
Speaker Tris 1936
Stahl Jake 1936
Start Joe 1936
Steinfeldt Harry 1936
Stovey Harry 1936
Street Gabby 1936
Sutton Ezra 1936
Sweeney Bill 1936
Tannehill Jesse 1936
Taylor Ben 1936
Tenney Fred 1936
Thomas Ira 1936
Thompson Sam 1936
Tiernan Mike 1936
Tinker Joe 1936
Toney Fred 1936
Turner Terry 1936
Van Haltren George 1936
Vance Dazzy 1936
Veach Bobby 1936
Waddell Rube 1936
Wagner Honus 1936
Wallace Bobby 1936
Walsh Ed 1936
Ward John M. 1936
Warfield Frank 1936
Welch Mickey 1936
Wheat Zack 1936
White Deacon 1936
White Sol 1936
White Will 1936
Williams Cy 1936
Williams Ken 1936
Williams Smoky Joe 1936
Williamson Ned 1936
Willis Vic 1936
Wood Joe 1936
Wright George 1936
Yerkes Steve 1936
Young Cy 1936
Youngs Ross 1936
Zimmer Chief 1936

[jalbright]

Contributors list

The contributors eligible for the 1936 election:


Lname Fname yr eligible
Abe Iso 1936
Adams Doc 1936
Anson Cap 1936
Bancroft Frank 1936
Barrow Ed 1936
Bulkely Morgan 1936
Cartwright Alexander 1936
Chadwick Harry 1936
Chance Frank 1936
Commiskey Charlie 1936
Conlan Charles 1936
Connolly Tom 1936
Creighton Jim 1936
Cummings Candy 1936
Dreyfuss Barney 1936
Dunn Jack 1936
Foster Rube 1936
Gleason Kid 1936
Griffith Clark 1936
Hanlon Ned 1936
Huggins Miller 1936
Hulbert William 1936
Johnson Ban 1936
Landis Kenesaw 1936
Lardner Ring 1936
Leavitt, Jr. Charles W. 1936
Mack Connie 1936
McCarthy Tommy 1936
McGraw John 1936
Mendez Jose 1936
Moran Pat 1936
Mutrie Jim 1936
Osborn Frank 1936
Reach A. J. 1936
Richter Francis 1936
Robinson Wilbert 1936
Selee Frank 1936
Shibe Ben 1936
Spalding Al 1936
Taylor C. I. 1936
Thayer Ernest 1936
Ward John M. 1936
Warfield Frank 1936
White Sol 1936
Wilson Horace 1936
Wright George 1936
Wright Harry 1936

[jalbright]

Since 1936 is so loaded with candidates, I've tried to put together a list of those who made the BBF HOF (hopefully, I've got them all, but if there's errors, let me know and I'll fix it):

Alexander , Pete
Anson , Cap
Baker , Frank
Barnes , Ross
Bennett , Charlie
Bresnahan , Roger
Brouthers , Dan
Brown , Mordecai
Burkett , Jesse
Carey , Max
Caruthers , Bob
Childs , Cupid
Clarke , Fred
Clarkson , John
Cobb , Ty
Collins , Eddie
Collins , Jimmy
Connor , Roger
Coveleski , Stan
Crawford , Sam
Dahlen , Bill
Davis , George
Delahanty , Ed
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Ewing , Buck
Faber , Red
Flick , Elmer
Galvin , Pud
Glasscock , Jack
Gore , George
Grant , Frank
Griffith , Clark
Groh , Heinie
Hamilton , Billy
Hill , Pete
Hines , Paul
Jackson , Joe
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Walter
Keefe , Tim
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kelly , King
LaJoie , Nap
Lloyd , Pop
Magee , Sherry
Maranville , Rabbit
Mathewson , Christy
Mays , Carl
McGinnity , Joe
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Mendez , Jose
Mullane , Tony
Nichols , Kid
O'Rourke , Jim
Plank , Eddie
Radbourn , Charlie
Redding , Dick
Richardson , Hardy
Rixey , Eppa
Rusie , Amos
Santop , Louis
Speaker , Tris
Start , Joe
Stovey , Harry
Sutton , Ezra
Thompson , Sam
Van Haltren , George
Vance , Dazzy
Waddell , Rube
Wagner , Honus
Wallace , Bobby
Walsh , Ed
Ward , John M.
Wheat , Zack
White , Deacon
Williams , Smoky Joe
Willis , Vic
Wright , George
Young , Cy

[jalbright]

The 1936 contributor eligibles contain the following BBF HOFers, which may help people make their selections:

Adams , Doc
Barrow , Ed
Cartwright , Alexander
Chadwick , Harry
Chance , Frank
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Dunn , Jack
Foster , Rube
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Huggins , Miller
Hulbert , William
Johnson , Ban
Landis , Kenesaw
Mack , Connie
McGraw , John
Pearce, Dickey
Richter , Francis
Selee , Frank
Spalding , Al
Taylor , C. I.
Ward , John M.
Wright , Harry

About the only guy not on this list I could see earning many votes in the top five would be Jim Creighton.

[jalbright]

My Ballot:

Players
1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Cy Young
4. Walter Johnson
5. Tris Speaker
6. Eddie Collins
7. Pete Alexander
8. Nap LaJoie
9. Smoky Joe Williams
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Kid Nichols
12. Cap Anson
13. Sam Crawford
14. Pop Lloyd
15. Dan Brouthers
16. Jim O’Rourke
17. Roger Connor
18. Ed Delahanty
19. Frank Baker
20. Deacon White

Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Connie Mack
3. Rube Foster
4. Harry Wright
5. William Hulbert

[jjpm74]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't Creighton eligible? He definitely would be one of my 5 for the contributors and did get support in the last BBFHOF election, so isn't he eligible?

[jalbright]

Just out of curiosity, why isn't Creighton eligible? He definitely would be one of my 5 for the contributors and did get support in the last BBFHOF election, so isn't he eligible?

He is. See post #4. The later listing in post #6 is limited to those in the BBF HOF, as a means of helping people sort through the quite large candidate list for 1936. As you know, Creighton has not been elected there, and thus doesn't make that list. Nevertheless, I do mention him as a worthy candidate in post #6. You are free to vote for him. He'll get my vote down the road if he's not elected earlier.

[jjpm74]

Thanks for clearing up the confusion for me. I misunderstood that list.

[jalbright]

Given the confusion jjpm74 highlighted, I should reiterate/make plain the fact that post #5 is not a comprehensive list of eligible candidates. That is in post #3. Post #5 contains members of the BBF HOF, who I think should contain the top 20 for almost all voters at this point. I did this solely to ease the selection process given the large number of eligible candidates right now, especially since we don't have the benefit of a voting history to help guide us.

[BlueBlood]

The initial hurdle is ranking so many players right off the bat, but future years will be easier since we'll most likely be either adding guys that narrowly missed our Top 20 on this ballot and/or the newbies. Cobb, Wagner, Johnson....then I really need to think it over. Ugh, and right now my gut's saying "Cobb" when I've listed Honus ahead of him very often in the past given the positions played...this could take a while and I don't plan to be hasty with my ballot. Sure, you can always edit later, but I don't want distractions or idleness to lead to me voting in a order I completely disagree with a few weeks down the road.

Are we allowed to be strategic? Can I put some 19th century guy at the top so he'll gain more points? In that case, I would only be basing my list on assumptions on how people will vote (or have) rather than being a cheater and weighting my list a certain way based on everybody else's...

[jjpm74]

I may revise this, but this ballot is pretty much set:

Players:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Eddie Collins
5. Tris Speaker
6. Smoky Joe Williams
7. Cap Anson
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Dan Brouthers
10.Cy Young
11.Christy Matthewson
12.Buck Ewing
13.Pop Lloyd
14.Frank Baker
15.Roger Connor
16.Kid Nichols
17.Ezra Sutton
18.Pete Alexander
19.Ross Barnes
20.Joe Start

Contributors:

1. Connie Mack
2. Alex Cartwright
3. Henry Chadwick
4. Jim Creighton
5. Harry Wright

Not yet on my ballot, but high in my consideration set:

Collins , Jimmy
Dahlen , Bill
Davis , George
Delahanty , Ed
Gore , George
Groh , Heinie
Hines , Paul
Kelly , King
McPhee , Bid
O'Rourke , Jim
Rusie , Amos
Walsh , Ed
White , Deacon

[dgarza]

Players
1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Cy Young
5. Tris Speaker
6. Napoleon LaJoie
7. Christy Mathewson
8. Eddie Collins
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Cap Anson
11. Pete Alexander
12. Ed Delahanty
13. Sam Crawford
14. Kid Nichols
15. Roger Connor
16. Tim Keefe
17. John Clarkson
18. Sam Thompson
19. Pop Lloyd
20. Jesse Burkett


Contributors
1. John McGraw
2. Connie Mack
3. Harry Wright
4. Al Spalding
5. Kenesaw Landis

[Paul Wendt]

[Rule 3]
>> We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election, have voters rank their top 20, taking 10. After that go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. Top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
<<

I understand this means that we will proceed down these four rows
- voter ranks top 20, induct 10
- voters rank top 12, induct 5
- voters rank top 12, induct 3
- voters rank top 12, induct 2
I believe this implies in practice that "any ties straddling the in/out line of selections" (Rule 17) will involve candidates that appear on many ballots.
Within a few years, if fifteen people vote, a tie that straddles is more likely to be a tie with ten votes each than a tie with one vote each.

--
If I understand correctly, a valid ballot in the 1936 Contributors election is a completely ranked list of four or five candidates, ranked 1-2-3-4-(5), to be tallied 5-4-3-2-(1).

If fewer than four candidates, it is invalid.
If four or more candidates but incompletely ranked, the manager reserves the right to tally the ballot by some consistent method, or to inform by PM and await revision, or to rule the ballot invalid.
That is all fine with me.

--
I will try to cast a contributors ballot now, but probably no valid players ballot for more than ten days (December).

[Paul Wendt]

Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Dock Adams
4. William Hulbert
5. Ban Johnson

Rube Foster is the strongest alternate, I suppose.
Mack and Comiskey
Spalding
Cartwright and the original Knickerbockers
Francis Richter
John McGraw

[AstrosFan]

Players:

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Tris Speaker
5. Cy Young
6. Eddie Collins
7. Pop Lloyd
8. Pete Alexander
9. Nap Lajoie
10. Dan Brouthers
11. Smoky Joe Williams
12. Christy Mathewson
13. Buck Ewing
14. Ed Delahanty
15. Sam Crawford
16. Kid Nichols
17. Roger Connor
18. George Davis
19. Cap Anson
20. Tim Keefe

Contributors:

1. Connie Mack
2. John McGraw
3. Rube Foster
4. Harry Wright
5. Henry Chadwick

[leecemark]

--Shouldn't Al Spaulding be on the players ballot?

[STLCards2]

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Tris Speaker
5. Eddie Collins
6. Cy Young
7. Nap Lajoie
8. Smokey Joe Williams
9. Pete Alexander
10.Cap Anson
11.Christy Matthewson
12.Dan Brouthers
13.Pop Lloyd
14.Kid Nichols
15.Sam Crawford
16.Ed Delehanty
17.Buck Ewing
18.Frank Baker
19.Eddie Plank
20.Roger Connor



Contributors:

1. Connie Mack
2. Alex Cartwright
3. Henry Chadwick
4. Rube Foster
5. Harry Wright

[bambambaseball]

Players:

1. Wagner , Honus
2. Cobb , Ty
3. Anson , Cap
4. Brouthers , Dan
5. Collins , Eddie
6. Johnson , Walter
7. Speaker , Tris
8. Connor , Roger
9. LaJoie , Nap
10. Pop Lloyd
11. Mathewson , Christy
12. Nichols , Kid
13. Ewing , Buck
14. Young , Cy
15. Alexander , Pete
16. Baker , Frank
17. Bennett , Charlie
18. Delahanty , Ed
19. Williams , Smoky Joe
20. O'Rourke , Jim

Contributers:

1. Creighton, Jim
2. McGraw, John
3. Chadwick, Henry
4. Adams, Doc
5. Wright, Harry

[leecemark]

Players
1. Honus Wagner
2. Cap Anson
3. John Henry Lloyd
4. Cy Young
5. Walter Johnson
6. Pete Alexander
7. George Wright
8. Buck Ewing
9. Ross Barnes
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Nap Lajoie
12. Eddie Collins
13. Sam Crawford
14. Luis Santop
15. Kid Nichols
16. Frank Baker
17. Billy Hamilton
18. Paul Hines
19. John Clarkson
20. Dan Brouthers

1. Alexander cartwright
2. Harry Wright
3. Henry Chadwick
4. Ban Johnson
5. William Hulbert

[jjpm74]

Leecemark-- No Ty Cobb???

If that's not an oversight, I'd like to hear why Cobb is not one of the top 20 from this list of candidates.

[leecemark]

--I am boycotting both Cobb and Speaker in the first election due to their game fixing incident. If either of them fail to make it then they will make my ballot next year.

[jjpm74]

Fair enough. I'm glad I'm not the only one listing Ross Barnes and it's nice to see Luis Santop show up on a ballot.

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4, Tris Speaker
5. Eddie Collins
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Cy Young
8. Nap Lajoie
9. Pete Alexander
10. Pop Lloyd
11. Smoky Joe Williams
12. Dan Brouthers
13. Buck Ewing
14. Mordecai Brown
15 Sam Crawford
16. Kid Nichols
17. Roger Connor
18. Eddie Plank
19. Tim Keefe
20. Luis Santop

Contributors:

1. Connie Mack
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Doc Adams
4. Rube Foster
5. Henry Chadwick

[jalbright]

Are we allowed to be strategic? Can I put some 19th century guy at the top so he'll gain more points? In that case, I would only be basing my list on assumptions on how people will vote (or have) rather than being a cheater and weighting my list a certain way based on everybody else's...

If you think strategic voting will affect votes in later elections, I can't prohibit you from doing that. However, the way this project is structured, that's the only possible effect of strategic voting. Only a fixed number will be elected in any event, and it has no effect on eligibility. In general, I wonder how much of a difference trying to push a candidate this way will make without an accompanying post of an argument for him. The class of new eligibles for the next year will have some impact, so someone isn't guaranteed a climb up the voting ladder. In short, I think strategic voting will be of limited value in this project. I certainly hope so, as I've tried to design a project which limits the value of such shenanigans.

[jalbright]

--Shouldn't Al Spaulding be on the players ballot?

He should have been, and has been added. He still won't show up in the BBF HOF list of players (post #5) as he was elected as a contributor.

[jalbright]

The initial hurdle is ranking so many players right off the bat, but future years will be easier since we'll most likely be either adding guys that narrowly missed our Top 20 on this ballot and/or the newbies. Cobb, Wagner, Johnson....then I really need to think it over.

Well, next election may bring mainly reductions in ballot sizes, as we drop to a 12 man ballot in 1937 (and for the rest of the project). So, if you've got eight to ten elected candidates in your 20, you won't have many new slots next election--but the only member of the BBF HOF in the 1937 class is Wilbur Cooper, and I doubt he'll draw many votes immediately. He's more of a down-the-road-a-bit candidate, I'd say.

[jalbright]

I'm pleased to see Smoky Joe Williams and Pop Lloyd getting significant support immediately, though they may not get elected this year. I have them right near the edge of electability this year, so I certainly can't fuss if they don't make it in 1936. I will concede I will be disappointed if we don't have at least one of them in at the end of the 1937 election.

[jalbright]

I don't wish to make this a rule, but I may have to do so if people do not voluntarily help me out here: please list the ranking with your candidates. It makes my job considerably easier, especially in double-checking that I have recorded them properly. Thank you.

[jalbright]

A nice response in the first day. We're already near our quorum of 10 (8 player ballots and 9 contributor ballots) on both sides.

Any voter may do as Paul Wendt has, submit one part of the ballot now and then the other part later, providing of course that the later ballot comes while the election is open.

[leecemark]

I don't wish to make this a rule, but I may have to do so if people do not voluntarily help me out here: please list the ranking with your candidates. It makes my job considerably easier, especially in double-checking that I have recorded them properly. Thank you.

--I think it should be a rule. How hard is it to number your ballot? You can still count the ballots of people who break the rule if you wish, but it is hardly an unreasonable expectation.

[jjpm74]

--I think it should be a rule. How hard is it to number your ballot? You can still count the ballots of people who break the rule if you wish, but it is hardly an unreasonable expectation.

So far, I think everyone has numbered their ballots, but I still think this is a reasonable rule to add. Especially if you get any newcombers to the project.

[jalbright]

So far, I think everyone has numbered their ballots, but I still think this is a reasonable rule to add. Especially if you get any newcomers to the project.

I did insert the numbers on one ballot (the only change I made to it), which prompted the comment. With your and leecemark's encouragement, I think I shall add the rule, but I will probably not enforce it until next election. I will also make it such that if a ballot is submitted without numbering, doing so makes it a ballot I can choose to invalidate or include at my discretion. I might be willing to cut a newbie a break, but not a repeat offender, for instance.

[jalbright]

Bump. I guess the initial rush was to get things done before the Thanksgiving holiday/end of the semester crush.

[Domenic]

01. Honus Wagner
02. Ty Cobb
03. Walter Johnson
04. Tris Speaker
05. Eddie Collins
06. Cy Young
07. Nap Lajoie
08. Christy Mathewson
09. Pete Alexander
10. Frank Baker
11. Kid Nichols
12. Dan Brouthers
13. Pop Lloyd
14. Cap Anson
15. Buck Ewing
16. Smokey Joe Williams
17. Eddie Plank
18. Ed Delehanty
19. Roger Connor
20. Sam Crawford

Contributors:

01. Connie Mack
02. Alex Cartwright
03. Henry Chadwick
04. Rube Foster
05. Harry Wright

[henrich]

Players ballot

1. SP Walter Johnson 24,549
2. CF Ty Cobb 20,706
3. SP Cy Young 20,493
4. SP Pete Alexander 19,609
5. SP Christy Mathewson 18,937
6. SP Eddie Plank 16,831
7. 2B Eddie Collins 16,075
8. SS Honus Wagner 16,015
9. CF Tris Speaker 15,300
10. SP Mordecai Brown 13,659
11. RF Sam Crawford 12,802
12. SP Pud Galvin 12,739
13. 1B Cap Anson 12,823
14. LF Ed Delahanty 11,083
15. SP Tim Keefe 11,552
16. SS George Davis 10,773
17. 3B Frank Baker 9927
18. CF Billy Hamilton 9243
19. C King Kelly 8462
20. C Buck Ewing 6982

I tried to hit every position grabbing 1 from each position and still accommodating the turn of the century guys. The numbers are of course H-factor rating. I list them for those who are curious and for myself to make sure I don't make clerical errors. Kindly, ignore if it doesn't interest you.

*Note, I'm not sure if it would be easier or not for Jim, but maybe flipping our ballots 20 points in rank for first place, 19 for 2nd place would be easier to tally. Just a thought for next election.

I don't know enough about the contributors to confidently vote in this area.

[jalbright]

Players ballot

*Note, I'm not sure if it would be easier or not for Jim, but maybe flipping our ballots 20 points in rank for first place, 19 for 2nd place would be easier to tally. Just a thought for next election.

Thanks for the thought, but:

1) it's easier for voters to do it 1 through 20 (or 12, in the next and all subsequent elections). That means less confusion, and

2) I've already set up a spreadsheet to use the places of 1 through 20 (all you've got to do is be able to go 21 minus the place for this player election to yield the proper point value, which isn't hard to do). That spreadsheet will be the model for future elections.

[jalbright]

We have achieved a quorum on both elections at this point.

[jalbright]

With 10 votes in, here are the top 20 players so far:


Wagner , Honus 188
Cobb , Ty 176
Johnson , Walter 176
Young , Cy 149
Collins , Eddie 147
Speaker , Tris 142
Mathewson , Christy 120
LaJoie , Nap 116
Alexander , Pete 114
Anson , Cap 99
Brouthers , Dan 86
Lloyd , Pop 83
Williams , Smoky Joe 67
Nichols , Kid 65
Ewing , Buck 60
Crawford , Sam 47
Connor , Roger 41
Baker , Frank 39
Delahanty , Ed 35
Plank , Eddie 23


It's pretty much down to the top nine should be in (through Alexander), and three guys chasing the final spot.

The top 5 contributors so far:


Mack , Connie 33
Cartwright , Alexander 21
Chadwick , Harry 21
Wright , Harry 19
McGraw , John 18


Mack has a rather large lead, which surprises me, even though he was a close second on my ballot. The next four, if this trend holds up, may have a really tight battle for 1937. Cartwright and Chadwick didn't make my ballot, but one will for 1937, I'd say.

[jalbright]

I'll do a little preliminary campainging for 1937 for Smoky Joe Williams and Pop Lloyd. I can't argue with where they're at in this election since I personally didn't put either one in the first ten spots. That said, I've been through enough with guys outside the 20th century MLB to know they've got a tougher road with at least a few voters particularly if no one campaigns for them. That's why I'm going to campaign for them. First, we'll look at Lloyd, who's doing better in the voting so far:

Pop Lloyd
Years played: 1906-1932 (13 winters in Cuba)
Main position: shortstop
All star selections: Holway 13
MVP selections: Holway 4, ESPN 5, James 1 (remember, James’ season by season picks begin in 1920)
League champions on: 16 American summer, 1 California Winter, 6 Cuban Winter
League leading performances: In American summer play, he was in the top two in average three times (led twice) and led in steals once. In California, he led in average once. In Cuba, he has the fourth best career average at .329 and led once in hits and once in homers.
Expert rankings: top shortstop in CPDD historian’s poll, 1st team shortstop in Courier poll, tied for fifth in SABR poll, third shortstop in Museum poll, James’ best Negro league shortstop, 2d best shortstop of all time and 27th overall, second team shortstop in Clark selections, and on Team #1 in the All World selections.

He’s frequently compared to Honus Wagner, and while I can’t quite rate him that highly, he probably comes as close as any retired shortstop ever has. Shades of Glory’s data begins when Lloyd was 36, but their data has him with a .343 average, .393 OBP and .450 slugging with 18.9 steals per 550 AB. That’s flat out impressive for someone from that point of his career on. The fragmentary records from 1919 and earlier suggest the Shades of Glory numbers are not out of line with his earlier play. He certainly had a long career toiling for many winners and garners a lot of respect from experts in all star and MVP picks.

Lloyd got a lot of praise for his defense, and the length of time he played at short would seem to confirm that his defense was top shelf. While I don’t think he comes close to catching Wagner, I don’t see any other retired shortstop as being particularly close to Lloyd, either.

For what it’s worth, I’ll add this comparison to actual major leaguers based on the projections by the BBTF guys. Guys who are as good as Lloyd are hard to find comps for because there just aren't many guys that good. The best I can do is to take Nap LaJoie, make him a lefty and a good defensive SS, and deduct 27 singles and 2 triples (29 hits in all) but add 25 walks per 162 games to bring everything into line.


hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years
Lloyd...... L ss 11668 292 352 414 1907-30
LaJoie..... R 2b 10460 338 380 467 1896-1916
adjusted.. L ss 10843 292 353 417 ………..


It certainly appears we'll elect LaJoie this time, and while Lloyd doesn't appear to be quite the hitter LaJoie was, a top notch defensive shortstop should have some edge on LaJoie defensively.

[jalbright]

Now, the pitch for Smoky Joe Williams:

Smokey Joe Williams
Years played: 1905-1932
Main position: Pitcher
All-Star selections: since Holway only picked one pitcher per year, this is unfair for a guy like Williams.
MVPs/ Pitcher of the Year: 3 time Holway MVP and 5 time Holway Pitcher of the Year, 1 time ESPN MVP and 4 time ESPN Pitcher of the Year, No selections by James at least in part because James’ yearly selections begin in 1920
League champions on: 8 American summer, 2 California Winter and 1 Cuban Winter.
League leading performances: In American summers, he was in the top four in wins ten times (led six), led Cuba in wins once, and led California in strikeouts once.
Expert rankings: third pitcher in CPDD historian’s poll, top pitcher in Courier poll, tied for 13th in SABR poll, 4th pitcher in Museum poll, James’ second best Negro League pitcher and 52nd overall, Clark 2d team right hand pitcher and on Team #1 of All World selections.

Shades of Glory leaves out the first 16 years of his career in the stats they present, but those stats demonstrate excellent control, with 1.11 walks per 9 IP and a 3.8 strikeout to walk ratio. Holway says he had a .652 career winning percentage, and Shades of Glory shows him with a 3.31 ERA from age 35 on. In California, he had a 8.9 strikeout per 9 IP rate in the deadball era, when it was a mortal sin in hitting to strike out.

Williams obviously had one heck of a fastball along with nice control. He pitched a long time for a lot of winners. I think if we had better pre 1920 data, his list of league leaderships would look more impressive than it presently does. Even so, he was a consistent winner. He did very well in expert selections for MVP and pitcher of the year. I think he justifies the high marks he gets overall from the experts.

I can’t put him ahead of Paige but will concede he could have been better, so he’s got to be behind Grove. But among LHP, that’s about the only guy I’d put him behind. I think halfway between Grove and Spahn is about right.

For what it’s worth, I’ll add this comparison to actual major leaguers based on the projections by the BBTF guys. He's so darned good, I have to reach to two (contemporary) all-time righty greats to compare him to: Walter Johnson and Pete Alexander. Give him Johnson's durability and Pete's ERA+ in a left handed package, and you've just about got it.


pitcher.... hand ERA+ IP W L years
Williams... L 139 6090 422 296 1910-32
Johnson... R 147 5915 417 279 1907-27
Alexander.. R 135 5190 373 208 1911-30


Johnson and Alexander are well on their way to election, and Williams shouldn't be far behind IMHO.

[Freakshow]

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Walter Johnson
4. Tris Speaker
5. Eddie Collins
6. Cy Young
7. Pete Alexander
8. Nap LaJoie
9. Pop Lloyd
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Cap Anson
12. Dan Brouthers
13. Ed Delahanty
14. Kid Nichols
15. Smoky Joe Williams
16. Roger Connor
17. Buck Ewing
18. Sam Crawford
19. George Wright
20. Jim O’Rourke

[PVNICK]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Pop Lloyd
5. Cy Young
6. Tris Speaker
7. Eddie Collins
8. Smokey Joe Williams
9. Nap Lajoie
10. Pete Alexander
11. Cap Anson
12. Christy Mathewson
13. John Clarkson
14. Tim Keefe
15. Sam Crawford
16. Buck Ewing
17. Kid Nichols
18. King Kelly
19. George Davis
20. Ed Delehanthy

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Harry Chadwick
3. Harry Wright
4. Rube Foster
5. Jim Creighton

[henrich]

Thanks for the thought, but:

1) it's easier for voters to do it 1 through 20 (or 12, in the next and all subsequent elections). That means less confusion, and

2) I've already set up a spreadsheet to use the places of 1 through 20 (all you've got to do is be able to go 21 minus the place for this player election to yield the proper point value, which isn't hard to do). That spreadsheet will be the model for future elections.

Cool. Just thinking, thinking as my wife would say. Sounds good to me.

[Erik Bedard]

Players:

1. Honus Wagner
2. Walter Johnson
3. Ty Cobb
4. Tris Speaker
5. Eddie Collins
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Nap Lajoie
8. Pete Alexander
9. Cy Young
10. Smokey Joe Williams
11. Kid Nichols
12. Pop Lloyd
13. Dan Brouthers
14. Cap Anson
15. Sam Crawford
16. Buck Ewing
17. King Kelly
18. Ed Delahanty
19. Frank Baker
20. George Davis

Contributors:

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Connie Mack
3. John McGraw
4. William Hulbert
5. Harry Wright

[jalbright]

We've gotten 14 people to submit their votes, so far, though one has submitted a contributor ballot but hasn't yet completed the player ballot (Take your time, Paul! ;) :waving :thumbsup: ). We've still got almost two weeks to go, and the following folks who have expressed an interest in the project yet to be heard from (folks who haven't previously expressed such an interest are also welcome):

philkid3
Captain Cold Nose
BlueBlood
AG2004
J W
Mike 90

Just a friendly reminder to get your vote in when you get a chance in the next 12 days.

[STLCards2]

After much thought, I have changed my ballot. Please note.

[jalbright]

After much thought, I have changed my ballot. Please note.

Please specify the changes, or they will not count. I'm not going to go through "figure out the changes on my ballot" for 20 names. Sorry.

[STLCards2]

I added Sam Crawford at #15, dropped Ed Walsh, and reshuffled Delahanty, Plank, Baker, and Connor. Sorry, I did not save exactly how they were placed before. Sorry if I casued you trouble!

[jalbright]

I can deal with what you've just given me, though it would be easier if you (and future vote changers) could be more specific. The key thing, though, is knowing which names have changed. If I have that, it makes it doable. Otherwise is a royal pain in the rump I don't care to deal with. Hope that clears up what I'm looking for. There's a learning curve for us all with a new project with new rules. We'll figure it out. Thanks.

Jim

[jjpm74]

I can deal with what you've just given me, though it would be easier if you (and future vote changers) could be more specific. The key thing, though, is knowing which names have changed. If I have that, it makes it doable. Otherwise is a royal pain in the rump I don't care to deal with. Hope that clears up what I'm looking for. There's a learning curve for us all with a new project with new rules. We'll figure it out. Thanks.

Jim

Is it okay with you to do what I did when we first started posting ballots where I added a large disclaimer stating that the order of my ballot wasn't finalized yet and not to count it until the disclaimer was removed? I did that mainly so that I could go back to it and revise it (which I did about a day after posting it). It could be a good way to not make more work for you while potentially encouraging some discussion.

[Paul Wendt]

Tue -11-25
> Bump. I guess the initial rush was to get things done before the Thanksgiving holiday/end of the semester crush.
Sun -11-30
> We've gotten 14 people to submit their votes, so far, though one has submitted a contributor ballot but hasn't yet completed the player ballot (Take your time, Paul!)

I did go to college on a trimester system years ago, with the first term nominally ending Friday before Thanksgiving. Is anyone on that schedule today? This year I was working nearly fulltime on a research project whose biggest deadline was that same Friday. Thanks to Boston hosting the North American Bridge Championships, last ten days of November, and my family's making Thanksgiving the annual occasion for all-together now, I was overwhelmed, or simply without decent internet connection* for most of the last fortnight.
(*) "it would be indecent to use this internet connection during a bridge tournament or a family gathering"

Contributors
1. Harry Wright
2. Henry Chadwick
3. Dock Adams
4. William Hulbert
5. Ban Johnson

Rube Foster is the strongest alternate, I suppose.
That Contributors ballot should be good for a few years!

On the Players side there is a compelling Big Sixteen. I see no reasonable alternative to voting for all of them this year, probably in slots 1 to 16, and voting for six of them again next year in slots 1 to 6.

Anson, Brouthers, Connor, Delehanty (4)
Lajoie, Wagner, Lloyd, Cobb, Speaker, Collins (6)

Is it true that our greatest ballplayers during the 1880s-90s were primarily firstbasemen and corner outfielders, and our greatest during the 1900s-10s were throwing infielders and centerfielders?

Kid, Cy, Matty, Walter, Smoky Joe, Pete (6)

This Big Sixteen leaves room for four others this year and room for six others next year, because we will elect ten of them and cut eight slots from the ballot.

Jim,
What is the expected time of arrival for Oscar Charleston, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente? (Over at the Hall of Merit, based on their playing careers not their birthdays, they were all in the class of '34.)

[jalbright]

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1348788&postcount=3
Jim,
What is the expected time of arrival for Oscar Charleston, Turkey Stearnes, Cristobal Torriente? (Over at the Hall of Merit, based on their playing careers not their birthdays, they were all in the class of '34.)

The entire list of names I have (which includes all BBF HOF, Hall of Merit, Cooperstown enshrinees plus all players receiving at least a single vote from the BBWAA is here. (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1348788&postcount=3) This is an alphabetical listing, so it is easy enough to find whomever you are seeking. In this case, Torriente comes up in 1938, Oscar in 1942, and Turkey in 1946.

[jalbright]

Is it okay with you to do what I did when we first started posting ballots where I added a large disclaimer stating that the order of my ballot wasn't finalized yet and not to count it until the disclaimer was removed? I did that mainly so that I could go back to it and revise it (which I did about a day after posting it). It could be a good way to not make more work for you while potentially encouraging some discussion.

It's a pain in the butt to keep track of what ballots are provisional and which ones aren't. I can deal with changes in the ballot due to discussion or simple changes of mind so long as you tell me the players or contributors involved in the changes. If you can do that, I can work with it. If not, please don't post the ballot, because the changes won't be recorded. If you can't meet me that far, I might as well erase the ballot and start over, which is a waste of my time. I'm willing to serve, but not to be abused in that way. In my book, my approach delineates when/where the line is crossed.

[Paul Wendt]

Pop Lloyd
Years played: 1906-1932 (13 winters in Cuba)
Main position: shortstop
All star selections: Holway 13
MVP selections: Holway 4, ESPN 5, James 1 (remember, James’ season by season picks begin in 1920)
League champions on: 16 American summer, 1 California Winter, 6 Cuban Winter
(my emphasis)
Is Jim Riley your source for championships, Jim Albright?

Who has systematically named "champion" teams for all or most seasons of the 1890s to 1910s?
Anyone who knows about this and anyone interested in some more carefully stated questions and examples, please visit
"champions - world, national, eastern, western" in the Negro Leagues forum (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85261)

[jalbright]

I can't parse out whether it's Riley or Holway's Complete Book of the Negro Leagues, or whatever the exact title is. Of course, Holway's book is anything but complete because the record isn't, but he made a herculean effort to put together what he did. That's just for the American Negro Leagues. There's a book dedicated to the California Winter League by Bill McNeil, so that's the source there, and the Figueredo books on the Cuban Leagues are the source there. Putting that aspect of some of the thumbnails I did on Negro Leaguers was a pain (as in, what player was really a part of which team, besides the issue of who won the championship).

[philkid3]

This was hard with so many people.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Tris Speaker
5. Eddie Collins
6. Pete Alexander
7. Cy Young
8. Nap LaJoie
9. Christy Mathewson
10. Dan Brouthers
11. Cap Anson
12. Kid Nichols
13. Roger Connor
14. Ed Delahanty
15. Frank Baker
16. Jim O’Rourke
17. Deacon White
18. Sam Crawford
19. Smoky Joe Williams
20. Pop Lloyd

Contributors
1. Harry Chadwick
2. William Hulbert
3. Connie Mack
4. John McGraw
5. Harry Wright

[jalbright]

Status with inside one week to go

We've had fourteen player ballots so far, and thirteen contributor ballots. We've got one voter who's voted for the contributors who has promised a player ballot, and five others who expressed interest in the project when it was proposed but who have yet to vote. I will follow up with them Sunday night or Monday if they haven't voted by then. Anyway, the point totals:

The players with more than 20 points (one first place vote) are:


Wagner , Honus 267
Cobb , Ty 252
Johnson , Walter 249
Collins , Eddie 209
Speaker , Tris 208
Young , Cy 206
LaJoie , Nap 168
Alexander , Pete 167
Mathewson , Christy 167
Anson , Cap 136
================================
Lloyd , Pop 122
Brouthers , Dan 114
Williams , Smoky Joe 99
Nichols , Kid 95
Ewing , Buck 72
Crawford , Sam 71
Delahanty , Ed 56
Connor , Roger 53
Baker , Frank 45
Keefe , Tim 21
Plank , Eddie 21


The line separates the top ten (how many will be elected in this election) from the rest. The top nine are almost certainly in, and I'd guess Anson will beat Lloyd for tenth.

No need for a dividing line for the Contributors, who take only one. Their results so far are (six point minimum, again, more than one first place vote):


Mack , Connie 40
Cartwright , Alexander 31
Chadwick , Harry 30
Wright , Harry 24
McGraw , John 23
Foster , Rube 14
Hulbert , William 11
Adams , Doc 8
Creighton , Jim 8


Connie Mack is in a strong position to be our first contributor elected.

[BlueBlood]

1. Pop Lloyd
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Smokey Joe Williams
4. Kid Nichols
5. Buck Ewing
6. Sam Crawford
7. Ed Delahanty
8. Roger Connor
9. Frank Baker
10. Tim Keefe
11. Cap Anson
12. Christy Matthewson
13. Pete Alexander
14. Nap Lajoie
15. Cy Young
16. Tris Speaker
17. Eddie Collins
18. Walter Johnson
19. Ty Cobb
20. Honus Wagner

1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Harry Chadwick
3. Connie Mack
4. Harry Wright
5. John McGraw

[jalbright]

1. Pop Lloyd
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Smokey Joe Williams
4. Kid Nichols
5. Buck Ewing
6. Sam Crawford
7. Ed Delahanty
8. Roger Connor
9. Frank Baker
10. Tim Keefe
11. Cap Anson
12. Christy Matthewson
13. Pete Alexander
14. Nap Lajoie
15. Cy Young
16. Tris Speaker
17. Eddie Collins
18. Walter Johnson
19. Ty Cobb
20. Honus Wagner



This player ballot is all about something I had hoped we wouldn't have--someone trying to manipulate the system. I tried to make it clear that I did not want "strategic balloting", much less on this scale, but obviously either my message did not get through or this voter knowingly disregarded my intent. I'll accept this ballot if necessary, but hereafter, there will be changes:

1) I will no longer publish interim results. This ballot demonstrates I cannot rely on the good faith of all participants not to manipulate the system. I will not make it easier for the manipulators by publishing interim results.

2) Hereafter, I will reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. Honus Wagner 20, Walter Johnson 18, and Eddie Collins 17 are an excellent case that the above ballot fails to meet this standard.

3) Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual for the above reason, they will forever lose the right to have their ballots counted. I am PMing this voter and asking him to revise his vote. I will count it if he does not revise it, but I will make it clear that I will also count this against him as a ballot I would have invalidated if I could have if he makes me count this ballot in its current form.

[BlueBlood]

Truthfully, I thought my ballot was fair play and was an honest attempt to get as many people elected as possible. Continue posting the interim counts, Jim and I'll amend my ballot accordingly.

The truth? I mistakenly thought there was some sort of percentages factor at play here and I was trying to get the largest amount of people inducted. I completely drew a blank and forgot that it was basically a Hall of Merit type situation where we're taking a set number at the top. That ballot is a complete mistake and it was intended to be the exact reverse of obstructionism.

Anyway, disregard it for now and I'll post a real one with actual rankings, of whom Honus Wagner would surely be first, followed by Cobb. Again, total mistake on my part as I thought I could help the project and despite looking over the rules ended up forgetting about the election standards right away.

[jalbright]

Apology accepted, and there will be no adverse consequences for you, Blue Blood. I won't count your ballot until revised, so you will not have any black mark against you. I will retain the rules on requiring that ballots must at least appear to be a reasonable attempt to rank players. That leaves a good deal of room. leecemark omitted Speaker and Cobb, but had a reasonable explanation which comports with the rules. One can reasonably put Pop Lloyd and Smoky Joe Williams very high indeed, but putting them first and third but Wagner 20th and Walter Johnson 18th is neither reasonable nor intelligent, IMHO. An "idiot ballot" really can't do much damage in this approach, but I now see that if someone wishes to game the system, there still is significant potential for mischief. The rules I have added will address this issue.

Anyway, the only way to increase the number of candidates elected in a single election is to create a tie which includes an 11th player and which cannot be broken under our tiebreakers. Not impossible, but exceedingly difficult.


That leaves only one question: should I forego the updates during the voting (realizing that except for around Christmas, I'm likely to have only one because of the two week interval starting January, 2009), or not?

[jjpm74]

That leaves only one question: should I forego the updates during the voting (realizing that except for around Christmas, I'm likely to have only one because of the two week interval starting January, 2009), or not?

In the BBFHOF elections, the interim reports served a purpose. Here, they serve no purpose. Their main use is to bump this topic back into the active topic section. There are other ways to accomplish this such as a simple bump reply to some discussion pieces about players like Pop Lloyd.

[J W]

Players' Ballot
1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Eddie Collins
5. Tris Speaker
6. Pete Alexander
7. Christy Mathewson
8. Cap Anson
9. Kid Nichols
10. Nap Lajoie
11. Smokey Joe Williams
12. Cy Young
13. Ed Delahanty
14. Dan Brouthers
15. Pop Lloyd
16. Sam Crawford
17. Joe Jackson
18. Buck Ewing
19. Frank Grant
20. Eddie Plank

Contributors' Ballot
1. John McGraw
2. Henry Chadwick
3. William Hulbert
4. Harry Wright
5. Rube Foster

?!? there are some ten names I could throw in a hat and select at random here.

[Mike90]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Smoky Joe Williams
5. Tris Speaker
6. Eddie Collins
7. Pete Alexander
8. Cy Young
9. Kid Nichols
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Nap LaJoie
12. Pop Lloyd
13. Sam Crawford
14. Frank Baker
15. Dan Brouthers
16. Eddie Plank
17. Roger Connor
18. Ed Delahanty
19. Cap Anson
20. Deacon White

[Paul Wendt]

All things considered, I prefer no updates.
In the BBFHOF elections, the interim reports served a purpose. Here, they serve no purpose. Their main use is to bump this topic back into the active topic section. There are other ways to accomplish this such as a simple bump reply to some discussion pieces about players like Pop Lloyd.
I suppose that you, Jim, want to promote participation in a neutral way, as appropriate by the administrator or moderator, rather than to bump the thread as a participant, where you presumably advocate someone or other. Is that right?

He, jjpm74, may be right that you can get away with bumping as a participant. Well, I'm sure you can get away with it. The issue is whether anyone will privately, grudgingly object.

[bambambaseball]

I didnt even look at the interim report. It doesnt matter. :)

[jalbright]

All things considered, I prefer no updates.

I suppose that you, Jim, want to promote participation in a neutral way, as appropriate by the administrator or moderator, rather than to bump the thread as a participant, where you presumably advocate someone or other. Is that right?

He, jjpm74, may be right that you can get away with bumping as a participant. Well, I'm sure you can get away with it. The issue is whether anyone will privately, grudgingly object.

I had gotten used to doing them, and, at least in the other project, I think the interim reports helped maintain interest. I don't know that it's useless in this format, but the idea that the interim reports are less important here is valid. When one adds in the potential it gives for mischief, it's not hard to forego doing it. I can give it a bump by stating when we meet our quorum of 10, and commenting on current/soon to appear candidates.

[BlueBlood]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Eddie Collins
5. Cy Young
6. Tris Speaker
7. Pete Alexander
8. Pop Lloyd
9. Nap Lajoie
10. Christy Matthewson
11. Smoky Joe Williams
12. Dan Brouthers
13. Buck Ewing
14. Sam Crawford
15. Kid Nichols
16. Ed Delahanty
17. Roger Connor
18. Frank Baker
19. Eddie Plank
20. Tim Keefe

No Cap Anson for his, ahem, sentiments. Went through the list of top vote earners and couldn't find any body on my list of names (about 70) that I support for induction in this project that were better than the ones receiving most of the support. So, here it is.

[Paul Wendt]

1. Honus Wagner
. . .
13. Buck Ewing
14. Sam Crawford
15. Kid Nichols
16. Ed Delahanty
17. Roger Connor
18. Frank Baker
19. Eddie Plank
20. Tim Keefe

No Cap Anson for his, ahem, sentiments. Went through the list of top vote earners and couldn't find any body on my list of names (about 70) that I support for induction in this project that were better than the ones receiving most of the support. So, here it is.
I think that means he passed over Anson but otherwise simply rearranged the 21 leaders in the standings.

That ballot lists 15 of the big sixteen whose prompt election I anticipate (#53), plus five others whom I have marked bold.

Ewing, Crawford, and Baker are three of the strongest candidates outside the sixteen but I suggest that Plank and Keefe do not belong in the conversation. Beside naming John Clarkson ahead of Keefe, which seems clear to me,
[continued as a footnote to my ballot, #78]

[jalbright]

Blue Blood,

Unless you say otherwise, I'm assuming you want the contributor ballot you submitted earlier to be used.

[jalbright]

I don't expect to post interim results again, but it probably didn't hurt to get people on the same page in the first election. After this, though, the past election results can serve that function.

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Cobb , Ty
2. Wagner , Honus
3. Speaker , Tris
4. Johnson , Walter
5. Young , Cy
6. Lloyd , Pop
7. Alexander , Pete
8. Mathewson , Christy
9. Anson , Cap
10. Collins , Eddie
11. LaJoie , Nap
12. Nichols , Kid
13. Delahanty , Ed
14. Ewing , Buck
15. Brouthers , Dan
16. Williams , Smoky Joe
17. Brown , Mordecai
18. Walsh , Ed
19. Kelly , King
20. Hamilton , Billy

Contributors

1. Henry Chadwick
2. John McGraw
3. Connie Mack
4. Alexander Cartwright
5. Al Spalding

[mwiggins]

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. Tris Speaker
4. Walter Johnson
5. Cy Young
6. Eddie Collins
7. Nap Lajoie
8. Pop Lloyd
9. Pete Alexander
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Dan Brouthers
12. Sam Crawford
13. Kid Nichols
14. Buck Ewing
15. Ed Delahanty
16. Smokey Joe Williams
17. Mordecai Brown
18. Billy Hamilton
19. Frank Baker
20. Cap Anson

[BlueBlood]

Blue Blood,

Unless you say otherwise, I'm assuming you want the contributor ballot you submitted earlier to be used.


Yep, I forgot to write that in.

And yes, I did rearrange the top names but I did put together a list of everybody I supported by chopping down Jim's master list. I did that well before I posted the failed "strategic" list. I honestly couldn't find a single name not in the Top 21 that stuck out more than those in it. But, my own personal preferences will become more apparent once we clear out the top half of this bunch and introduce some others. I think there's obviously no clear-cut answer in Hugh Duffy vs. George Van Haltren, etc.

[bambambaseball]

After thinking about it I moved Pop Lloyd to number 10 from number 14. I hope that doesnt mess things up. :party::hide:

[Paul Wendt]

Gaps have the usual meaning. Further, with 10 players to be elected this year, and the number of votes to decrease from 20 to 12, the big sixteen represent those who will certainly be on my ballot next year if not elected this year. In other words, 1 to 16 include a rough draft for six slots at the top of my ballot next year.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Eddie Collins
5. Walter Johnson
6. Cy Young
7. John Lloyd

8. Roger Connor
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Pete Alexander
11. Ed Delahanty
12. Nap Lajoie
13. Cap Anson
14. Christy Mathewson
15. Joe Williams
16. Kid Nichols

17. George Wright
18. George Davis
19. Billy Hamilton
20. Sam Crawford

Note.
(moved here from not far above)

This election will put the big sixteen somewhere in the top twenty along with Crawford, Buck Ewing, Frank Baker, and another. The official preliminary report shows Tim Keefe and Eddie Plank as front runners for that 20th place.

There must be at least ten non-pitchers whom I would name ahead of any pitcher.

Ewing and White at catcher. maybe Santop?
Baker alone at third.
Davis, Dahlen, and Wright at short. maybe Johnson? Jennings? Pearce? Wallace?
(yes, I think there is some case even for Wallace over Plank)
There may be a case for Barnes at second.
There may be a case for Start at first.
O'Rourke at left (in his baseball old age) or center (his Hall of Merit position).
Hamilton and Hines at center.
Crawford and Kelly at right.

Bold marks eleven good ones, the three electoral favorites (underline) named by BlueBlood plus eight! others.

Blue marks the four of eleven whom I put in slots 17-20 today. I expect to have and to take the opportunity to add two of the remiaining seven next year. The Hall of Merit elections suggest O'Rourke and Dahlen, in my interpretation. It's possible that I will replace someone, such as George Wright if he appears to be a lost cause.

[jalbright]

After thinking about it I moved Pop Lloyd to number 10 from number 14. I hope that doesnt mess things up. :party::hide:

Taken care of . I assumed, apparently correctly, that you moved the prior 10 through 13 down a slot each.

[AG2004]

My rankings for 1936 are as follows.

PLAYERS
1) Honus Wagner
2) Walter Johnson
3) Ty Cobb
4) Tris Speaker
5) Cy Young
6) Eddie Collins
7) Kid Nichols
8) Pete Alexander
9) Nap Lajoie
10) Smoky Joe Williams
11) Sam Crawford
12) Pop Lloyd
13) Ed Delahanty
14) Christy Mathewson
15) Dan Brouthers
16) Buck Ewing
17) Cap Anson
18) Jim O'Rourke
19) Billy Hamilton
20) Paul Hines

I think Baker would have made the top 20 if he hadn't retired twice. But he did retire, and that cost him too much career value and two many top seasons.

Williams did pitch a lot of innings, but the BBTF discussion indicates that his ERA+, had he been a major leaguer, might have been lower -- perhaps significantly lower -- than Alexander's. I decided to split the difference.

Incidently, I would give Alexander 189 win shares for his best stretch of five consecutive seasons (1915-17 and 1919-20). Since he was drafted early in 1918, skipping over that year when determining consecutive-season totals is only fair: he was physically able to play baseball, but couldn't because of circumstances beyond his control.

Nichols has an ERA+ of 140 in 5056-1/3 IP; Alexander, 135 in 5190 IP. Nichols started when pitching distances were shorter, which increased his IP numbers. On the other hand, Alexander was rarely involved in pennant races, while Nichols was a key player in many of them.

1891: Nichols went 30-17, with a 152 ERA+ (top in the league). Boston won by 3.5 games.

1892: Boston won the first half of the season by 2.5 games. Nichols went 35-16 overall that year, but I don't have his statistics split by season halves. Boston swept Cleveland, 5-0-1, in the championship series; Nichols went 2-0 with a 1.00 ERA.

1893: Nichols went 34-14, with a 141 ERA+ (4th in the league). Boston won by 5 games.

1897: Nichols went 31-11, with a 170 ERA+ (top in the league). Boston won by just 2 games.

1898: Nichols went 31-12, with a 172 ERA+ (2nd in the league). Boston had a bit more breathing room, as they won by 6 games.

In the end, I had to put Nichols ahead of Alexander.


Anson slipped down a few notches due to character issues. Ewing had impressive rate stats, and, as being a catcher limited his playing time, both in career games played and in single-season appearances, he gets some compenation for that.


CONTRIBUTORS
1) Rube Foster
2) John McGraw
3) Doc Adams
4) Harry Wright
5) Connie Mack

Foster was a great player, a great manager, and an extremely great executive and organizer. That combination puts him on top here.

[jalbright]

We're in the final hours of the first BOB project election, with a little over 10 1/2 hours to go as I write.

[BlueBlood]

Players-wise...it's obviously going to be a duke-out between Anson & Lloyd for the tenth spot. The other 9 seem to have a far enough gap above the others.

[jalbright]

It's possible that I will replace someone, such as George Wright if he appears to be a lost cause.

Given that Wright made it to the BBF HOF with many of the same voters, I think he'll make it eventually. I doubt he'll make my ballot before the 1940's, and depending on how things go, I'm not certain he'll make it then. He's not a borderline guy for me, but it will take a while to get through those I put above him. Whether you want to change a vote and go back to him later is entirely up to you.

[jalbright]

The 1936 final results:

Players (above the ====== line are elected) 21 votes cast

Player…………………….. # votes points
Wagner , Honus…… 21 405
Cobb , Ty……………….. 20 386
Johnson , Walter…… 21 372
Speaker , Tris………… 20 326
Collins , Eddie………… 21 316
Young , Cy…………... 21 306
Alexander , Pete…….. 21 260
LaJoie , Nap…………. 20 246
Mathewson , Christy 21 240
Lloyd , Pop…………. 20 205
=================== ====== ======
Anson , Cap………….. 19 176
Brouthers , Dan……… 19 170
Williams , Smoky Joe 18 163
Nichols , Kid…………. 20 160
Crawford , Sam…….. 18 111
Delahanty , Ed ………. 18 104
Ewing , Buck………… 16 101
Connor , Roger………. 13 74
Baker , Frank………… 12 57
Plank , Eddie…………. 6 29
Brown , Mordecai…… 4 26
Keefe , Tim…………… 6 22
Wright , George……… 3 20
Hamilton , Billy……….. 6 15
O'Rourke , Jim……….. 5 15
Barnes , Ross……….. 2 14
Clarkson , John ……… 3 14
Davis , George………. 5 14
Kelly , King…………… 4 11
Galvin , Pud………….. 1 9
Santop , Louis………. 2 8
White , Deacon ……… 3 6
Bennett , Charlie…….. 1 4
Hines , Paul…………. 2 4
Jackson , Joe……….. 1 4
Sutton , Ezra………… 1 4
Poles , Spotswood 1 3
Thompson , Sam…….. 1 3
Walsh , Ed…………….. 1 3
Grant , Frank………… 1 2
Burkett , Jesse……… 1 1
Start , Joe…………… 1 1


Contributor (top point getter is elected) 17 votes cast

Contributor…………… # votes points
Mack , Connie……….. 12 47
Chadwick , Harry……. 13 43
Cartwright , Alexander 9 38
McGraw , John……… 10 37
Wright , Harry……….. 15 30
Foster , Rube……….. 8 20
Hulbert , William…….. 6 14
Adams , Doc………… .... 4... 11
Creighton , Jim……… 3 8
Johnson , Ban………. 2 3
Spalding , Al………… 2 3
Landis , Kenesaw….. 1 1


I decided to include the number of people voting for each candidate to help folks guage the support they're getting. Overall, someone who's getting supported by voters has an edge on candidates with similar point totals but less supporters. The only candidate named on at least all but one ballot not elected was Kid Nichols.

[dgarza]

Maybe I read the rules wrong, but I thought just the Top 5 would be elected. Is 1936 different due to the backlog?

[jalbright]

Maybe I read the rules wrong, but I thought just the Top 5 would be elected. Is 1936 different due to the backlog?

Yup. That, and the fact Cooperstown intended to elect 10 in 1936, but botched it. From 1937-40, we'll take 5 a year, and from 1941-2010, we'll take 3 a year, and 2 a year thereafter.

The actual text of the rule (emphasis mine):
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players.

I couldn't see electing 10 people on a 12 person ballot, so that's why 1936 alone will have a 20 player ballot. Hereafter, it will be a 12 person ballot.