What about Ichiro???

[digglahhh]

As for Rickey,
Well Rickey would probably be the best catcher of all time or best SS of all time or best 2B of all time if we just put him there too. We can say that Babe Ruth would have been the best lead-off hitter of all time if he just played there. But the point is he didn't. Rickey did play that position, and the lead-off isn't some artificial distinction. Batting first is very important, and getting the lead runner on base is extremely important. Rickey could do that.

C'mon Ubiq, you are intentionally ignoring or misrepresenting my point just to make some rhetorical argument that isn't even remotely analogous. Why waste your time and mine?

Rickey could not have caught, if he was put there it would significantly decrease his value because he would be terrible and his hitting and SPEED would obviously suffer.

Rickey could have easily batted third or fourth and been productive if his manager decided to put him there. Barry could and would have easily been the best lead off hitter of all time if he was used that way. The point is, on offense the skills requirements remain relatively similar from slot to slot. On defense that is not the case, a good 3B would not automatically be a good CF. In fact the reason Rickey was the best leadoff hitter off all time was because it was like having a middle of the order leading off (with freakish speed).

Oh and by the way, all walks are not created equal. Walking doesn't automatically mean you got nothing to hit, it just meant you chose not to swing- ask Vlad...

[Ubiquitous]

Yes not all walks are created equally never said they were. Some walks come about because of the failure to hit what is hittable or not wanting to hit what is hittable while other walks come about because nothing came that was hittable and everything in between. But that is all besides the point when talking about singles and walks. Most Sabr-bashers dislike walks and think that statheads over-rate them and that we value to highly players that amass many of them. The problem at least the one I see is that these same people tend to worship at the altar of high batting average singles hitters like Ichiro. When if they actually look at what Ichiro is doing they will find a guy who is basically racking up a lot of "walks" but is lacking in power and extra base hits that the statheads love in these type of hitters.

As for Rickey is more then just merely the best lead-off hitter of all time, he is a great player and would be a great had he batted #2 or #5. He is in the top 25 for me not because he batted first but because of what he did in his plate appearances and on the basepaths. If Babe Ruth was a lead-off hitter then Rickey would not be the best lead-off hitter of all time but I would still have him in my top 25.

[digglahhh]

Fair, I was just testing the waters on the issue on how staunchly the belief is held that "leadoff hitter" in an actual distinction amongst offensive players.

I don't downplay the value of the walk. I was just responding to your comment about a guy walking being completely absolved from "blame" because he had no choice in the matter.

I wonder, does anybody actually have the data for how many times Ichiro led off an inning. I mean, obviously at least 162 times.

So I will grant you that those leadoff singles are really just "double counted" or glorified walks. But then you have to grant me the concession that since he averages 38 SB per season, some of those singles that could be considered walks, could also be considered doubles. I suppose the same could be said for the walks, but Ichiro's career ratio is almost 5:1 hits to walks.

Oh, and if those walks are singles when there's nobody on- then those bunt singles with runners in RISP can be considered walks- this is one big semantic/statisical circle.

The bottom line is that anyway Ichiro gets on base is good for him. He was told to take more pitches last year and he wound up posting his lowest BA and OBP and OPS of his career. The guys still has a career .377 OBP after all.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Fair, I was just testing the waters on the issue on how staunchly the belief is held that "leadoff hitter" in an actual distinction amongst offensive players.

I don't downplay the value of the walk. I was just responding to your comment about a guy walking being completely absolved from "blame" because he had no choice in the matter.

I wonder, does anybody actually have the data for how many times Ichiro led off an inning. I mean, obviously at least 162 times.

So I will grant you that those leadoff singles are really just "double counted" or glorified walks. But then you have to grant me the concession that since he averages 38 SB per season, some of those singles that could be considered walks, could also be considered doubles. I suppose the same could be said for the walks, but Ichiro's career ratio is almost 5:1 hits to walks.

Oh, and if those walks are singles when there's nobody on- then those bunt singles with runners in RISP can be considered walks- this is one big semantic/statisical circle.

The bottom line is that anyway Ichiro gets on base is good for him. He was told to take more pitches last year and he wound up posting his lowest BA and OBP and OPS of his career. The guys still has a career .377 OBP after all.

A .377 OBP for a career .332 hitter is kind of weak for me. I have a rule of thumb, a "great" hitter is someone with a BA around .300 and an OBP around 100 points over their batting average.

[Ubiquitous]

I don't downplay the value of the walk. I was just responding to your comment about a guy walking being completely absolved from "blame" because he had no choice in the matter.
I never said he was absolved of blame, in fact I talked about the risk of striking out and not be able to get a hit even with the pitch you want.


I wonder, does anybody actually have the data for how many times Ichiro led off an inning. I mean, obviously at least 162 times.
I've looked at it some and I would bet that at least doubled that. Because of the lineup I saw him batting leadoff in the third a lot. But we really don't need to get that deep all we have to know is how many times he batted with the bases empty. He did that 497 times, roughly 65% of the time. He had 151 singles with bases empty so 151 of his singles had the same exact value as a walk. Then what we would need to see is his pbp data for men on, because he has 74 singles and those are the singles we need to see if he actually moves the runners over more then a walk would. If he doesn't then his single has the same value as a walk again.

So I will grant you that those leadoff singles are really just "double counted" or glorified walks. But then you have to grant me the concession that since he averages 38 SB per season, some of those singles that could be considered walks, could also be considered doubles. I suppose the same could be said for the walks, but Ichiro's career ratio is almost 5:1 hits to walks.
Yes we have to factor in steals but steals are not the same as doubles. Part of the doubles value is in the moving of runners over. A steal does not do that normally. So a single and a steal will not have the same value as just a double. Unless that is both the double and the single happened with no one else on base


Oh, and if those walks are singles when there's nobody on- then those bunt singles with runners in RISP can be considered walks- this is one big semantic/statisical circle.
Yes they should be considered walk as long as no runner is moved over by more then a walk would do. Its not a circle because this is what I have been saying from the beginning. Normally if you looked at his line you would say "oh he hit a single with RISP well thats better then a walk. I'd rather have him up then somebody who walks in that situation" But the truth of the matter is if all he does is bunt himself on and doesn't move the runner over by more then a walk then what he did is the same as a walk. He shouldn't get more credit then a guy who walks. The stat-basher think he should because all they care about is that he got a hit instead of a walk.


The bottom line is that anyway Ichiro gets on base is good for him. He was told to take more pitches last year and he wound up posting his lowest BA and OBP and OPS of his career. The guys still has a career .377 OBP after all.

We are not simply talking about getting on base, but the value of those actions. The stat-bashers thinks he is better then he really is because he has all those hits, which they love. The truth of the matter is that a lot of his hits were no better then walks, which they don't like.

[Tigerfan1974]

If Ichiro keeps going at the same rate he is going,will he be in the hall? and how long will it take for him to get there?

It takes at least a 10 yr playing career. So until he has that, it is irrelevant to discuss anything else.

[digglahhh]

Gotcha, and to that extent I agree with you.

I'm not all that interested in dissecting his season to go extremely deeply either. I just wanted to toss around a couple of considerations. I must say that I agree with a lot of things you said.

When I said the thing about semantics, I was actually saying the same thing you are that in terms of values some singles are actually walks, some are like some doubles, some walks are like singles and so on and so forth.

But the "stat bashers" don't think he's great just because of the hits, they think he is great beyond his numbers because of the composite of skills he has. I mean nobody is calling him top 20 of all time or anything.

[Ubiquitous]

I seriously doubt we would be having a discussion about Ichiro and his 2004 season if he hit 202 hits, 109 BB, and a .314/.414/.404 line. That would be his line if we took 60 of his bases empty hits and moved them over to walks. A good player yes but nobody would be trumping Ichiro as the hero against the big bad boring sluggers.

[csh19792001]

I seriously doubt we would be having a discussion about Ichiro and his 2004 season if he hit 202 hits, 109 BB, and a .314/.414/.404 line. That would be his line if we took 60 of his bases empty hits and moved them over to walks. A good player yes but nobody would be trumping Ichiro as the hero against the big bad boring sluggers.

Right, as you say, "a good player, yes". That sounds about right. Probably even "very good", even, with that line. But nothing out of the ordinary that hasn't been done god knows how many times.

People wouldn't be trumping him because he'd no longer be unique, nor would many of his accomplishments over the past 5 years be records.

But factors like skill (not only exhalted skill but possessing a variety of exhalted skills), uniqueness, and excitement are ethereal strawmen, in the end, no? The fact that Ichiro can beat out a pretty hard grounder btw short and thrid that almost nobody else in history could beat out (or, the fact that he's one of the fastest player from home-1st in history) doesn't carry any intrinsic merit/greatness?

Myself, Diglahh, and others here consider these types of things in assessing "greatness", and a few of our most ardent (and frequent) posters do not. That's seems to be the root of the ongoing schism.

[Ubiquitous]

What is this uniqueness and why should I care about it in terms of wanting my team to win? If I have no team to root for and merely want to watch a game it can be factored in but then again I could just watch reruns of MTV celebrity softball and be entertained as well. In terms of winning it doesn't matter if Ichiro is unique or entertaining. Being unique doesn't make you great it makes you unique. Okay Ichiro beats out an infield dribbler, that has value but it doesn't have any more then what is, an infield single. Theres no reason to give Ichiro extra points because he weakly hits groundballs to the left side and is not punished for it as often as another player. I'll take 8 boring non-unique players (90's Yankees) who rack up the wins and win a world series any day then 8 unique players who don't. Is that the only choices? NO, would I perfer to have 8 Ty Cobb or Vince Coleman/Eric Davis types and win the world series? Yes I would but the bottom line to me is winning the world series. I don't care that if a guy looks good in a baseball uniform, or if he donates time and money to charities, or if he hustles, if makes contact or whatever I only care if my team wins. That is how I measure greatness. Who helps their team win the most, not who is the most unique.

[RuthMayBond]

NO, would I perfer to have 8 Ty Cobb or Vince Coleman/Eric Davis types and win the world series? Yes I would You just put Vince Coleman and Ty Cobb in the same sentence :D (Coleman can't steal first base)

[Ubiquitous]

As for schisms I think it has more to do with the fact that you tend to bash stat-head whenever and where-ever you can, and you tend to do it in the most broadest untrue way.

You will find very very few conversations that start with a stathead bashing you guys because you don't follow baseball or don't care about it or don't understand it. While practically every single conversation is started with someone saying statheads don't follow baseball, don't watch baseball, don't understand baseball, and or are somehow inferior to you guys who so very clearly (at least to yourselves) do while we do not.

[Ubiquitous]

You just put Vince Coleman and Ty Cobb in the same sentence :D (Coleman can't steal first base)

Well you could say that an infield single is stealing first base.

[dl4060]

To those being critical of Ichiro for bunting singles when there are runners in scoring position: Aren't you the same guys who told me, in the Jimmy Wynn discussion and many others, that the bottom line is not making an out? Well which is it? If Ichiro shouldn't have settled for those bunt singles and tried to drive in the runs, shouldn't Wynn have not settled for the walks and tried to drive in runs too?

I'll grant some legitimacy to your argument provided you apply it consistently.

As for Rickey, I love him, but I doubt I would rate him quite as high as you many here would- for one specific reason. I might get blasted for this but, the leadoff batter is a contrived distinction. Just like being the best DH is nothing more than being the best hitter who doesn't play the field. The best leadoff hitter is just the best hitter who hits first, seeing how most teams don't put their best hitter first, the distinction sounds more impressive than I believe it is. This should resonate especially well with the sabermetricians who wouold be more inclined to agree that the narrow mainstream defintion of a leadoff hitter is rather limiting. Now Rickey could do it all, and would still be the best "leadoff hitter" but what does that really mean. As opposed to defensive positions that correspond directly to specific skill sets, the offensive "positions" are more artificial in their distinction- not completely, but much more so. Rickey is the best leadoff hitter of all time, well Bonds would obliterate him, if he hit leadoff... I don't think offensive comparisons are particularly batting order sensitive at all, IMO you have to compare Rickey to all hitters. Of course he still fares rather well.


Where exactly did I say that about Wynn?

[digglahhh]

Where exactly did I say that about Wynn?

The "you" or "those" I was refering to were the staunch sabermetricians and not any one poster in specific. That's why I didn't quote anybody. The points were made, I just don't remember by whom and didn't feel like looking it up.

[leecemark]

--I think it was mostly one staunch (but misguided) stat lad. Most posters, regardless of how much they like the new fangled stats wouldn't call Wynn anything but an underrated good player. He is, at best, a very marginally HoF candidate. Unless he falls off a cliff, Ichiro is going to be much more deserving.

[538280]

Right, as you say, "a good player, yes". That sounds about right. Probably even "very good", even, with that line. But nothing out of the ordinary that hasn't been done god knows how many times.

People wouldn't be trumping him because he'd no longer be unique, nor would many of his accomplishments over the past 5 years be records.

But factors like skill (not only exhalted skill but possessing a variety of exhalted skills), uniqueness, and excitement are ethereal strawmen, in the end, no? The fact that Ichiro can beat out a pretty hard grounder btw short and thrid that almost nobody else in history could beat out (or, the fact that he's one of the fastest player from home-1st in history) doesn't carry any intrinsic merit/greatness?

Myself, Diglahh, and others here consider these types of things in assessing "greatness", and a few of our most ardent (and frequent) posters do not. That's seems to be the root of the ongoing schism.

But Chris, you're still not answering my question. All of your thoughts about uniqueness/record setting could also apply to Rickey Henderson, and yet you have repeatedly said that he is worse than his "value", while Ichiro is so much greater than his.

And Eric Davis? He was very unique and exciting, perhaps even more so than Ichiro, and he also had more value. Do you think he belongs in the HOF?

[Goofy]

I have, and Davis was far more exciting. It is not even close. With Eric Davis you always had the possibility of him robbing someone of a homerun and then knocking one out of the park in the same ining. Do you even remember watching Eric Davis play?



I did when he was playing for Baltimore and I agree with you. I like Davis and his abilities to do the things you mentioned alot more than Ichiro who barely hits anything but a single. To me that's not impressive no matter how many you hit. If everyone went for singles in their careers then where would that leave us? Not sure if Davis belongs in the Hall though.

[dl4060]

I do not think Davis belongs in the hall either. With him it is a durability issue. When he was healthy, however, he certainly played at a hall of fame level. Remember 1987? That year he was one of the greatest baseball players I have ever seen. By the way 583280, I love that Pete Rose quote you had about Davis being like having a bomb sitting next to you in the dugout. That sums it up perfectly.

[DoubleX]

I think just on skill, Ichiro is making a good case for himself already, but I think he also is a symbol for the growing globalization of the game.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The point is, on offense the skills requirements remain relatively similar from slot to slot. On defense that is not the case, a good 3B would not automatically be a good CF.

Are you implying that all hitters, 1-9 take the same approach and essentially have the same abilities? That a hitter who makes more contact than another, has more bat control than another, is a smart hitter, goes the other way well.... isn't better suited to be a #2 hitter than a #5 hitter?

[digglahhh]

What I'm saying is that a highly productive hitter is a highly productive hitter in whatever spot you put him in the line-up, what varies is the extent to which his productivity helps his overall team. All in all, the qualities needed to be a potent offensive force are stable, while the pre-requisites to be an effective defender change based upon the position one plays.

You can simply say that Rickey was the best leadoff hitter of all time because Alex Rodriguez doesn't hit lead off.

You can't simply say that Keith Hernandez was the best defensive 1B of all time because Ozzie Smith didn't play first base.

Comparitively speaking the offensive skill required for prodcutivity set varies less based on position in the order than the defensive skill set varies for position in the field. Tony Gwynn may not have been the best clean-up batter because of his approach and "game" but he still would have been highly productive simply because he was a great hitter.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

You can simply say that Rickey was the best leadoff hitter of all time because Alex Rodriguez doesn't hit lead off.

Tony Gwynn may not have been the best clean-up batter because of his approach and "game" but he still would have been highly productive simply because he was a great hitter.

Defensive positions certainly don't translate as well as different batting order slots do, with few exceptions.

For instance if we take one extreme of one, coupled with the opposite extreme of the other, batting average slots are tougher.

Extreme batting order slot adjustment: Cleanup to leadoff, leadoff to cleanup.

Opposite extreme defensive adjustment: SS to 2b, 2b to SS

In that case, the batting average adjustment is much tougher, but you'd concede on that. I agree with you in general though.

Your last paragraph proves that you understand certain hitters bring something special to the table, and that they are better suited for certain slots in the batting order. A team could survive with Gwynn hitting leadoff, but it wouldn't be optimal.

[RuthMayBond]

What I'm saying is that a highly productive hitter is a highly productive hitter in whatever spot you put him in the line-upSomeone who may be productive for the 9th spot may not be fairly productive for the 3rd/4th spot

[digglahhh]

Someone who may be productive for the 9th spot may not be fairly productive for the 3rd/4th spot

Yeah because he is not a productive hitter, only productive in relation to the other poor hitters that hit ninth. Being a productive ninth place hitter is an oxymoron, essentially. If you were a productive hitter, you wouldn't be hitting 9th.

[538280]

Someone who may be productive for the 9th spot may not be fairly productive for the 3rd/4th spot

But that's not the point. The point is that a productive hitter will still be productive whether he's batting 3rd or 9th.

And the above isn't true either. If you're not productive in one spot, you're not productive in another one either. Is the guy with the 90 OPS+ batting 9th more valuable than the guy with the 100 OPS+ batting 3rd?

[RuthMayBond]

But that's not the point. The point is that a productive hitter will still be productive whether he's batting 3rd or 9th.OK, although early in '94, Thome sometimes batted 9th :eek:

<And the above isn't true either. If you're not productive in one spot, you're not productive in another one either. Is the guy with the 90 OPS+ batting 9th more valuable than the guy with the 100 OPS+ batting 3rd?>

FOR THEIR RESPECTIVE SPOTS, very possibly

[leecemark]

--Leadoff is really the only lineup spot I regard differently. At leadoff I can overlook (to some degree) a lack of power, if you're getting on base enough. I credit speed a little higher in a leadoff man too. For the most part a hitter is what he is though and his spot in the lineup is a reflection of his skill (at least in relationship to his team).
--That is not true by position though. In the above example, the 9th hitter with the 90 OPS+ is clearly not better than the cleanup guy with the 100 OPS+ (the latter guy just plays for an awfull team). However, a SS or C with a 90 OPS+ IS better than a 1B with a 100 OPS+ (who is as much a liability as the 100 OPS+ cleanup hitter).

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Leadoff is the only obvious one Mark, but for an optimal lineup, it pays for players to have specific skills at the 2 hole and the 8 hole (in the NL) as well.

[Ubiquitous]

There is a theory out there right now that the special skill the #8 hitter in the NL needs is to be able to pitch. It seems LaRussa wasn't too crazy to do that with McGwire in 1998.

[the pyromaniac]

Ichiro is a great player, but I don't believe you can waive the 10-year service requirement for eligibility for any player who had the choice to play in the majors. If he can stick around for ten years & produce sufficient stats, then I think one would have to at least consider him. Until then I say it's a moot point.


Agreed. He's halfway there, and I think he's going to make it. In my opinion, he's going to need about 3 more 200-hit years, 3-4 more Gold Gloves, and about 50-60 more stolen bases to be a bona fide first ballot HOFer.

[the pyromaniac]

Rickey set some of those records with longevity too.

...and he had to be pretty great and awfully valuable to play 25 seasons too...;)

[1905 Giants]

Just interested in an opinion, if he has at least a good year this year I could go either way

[dl4060]

This is based on whether I think he will get voted in or not, not whether I think he should get voted in. Unless he has afew more .350-.370 years I do not think he deserves induction. The three most important offensive elements are the ability to make contact, plate discipline, and power. Ichiro is weak in two of the three. I do not think defense in right field is enough to make up for that. His OPS+ is only 121 and he has not even entered his decline phase yet. However, sports writers tend to be more interested in pretty plays and batting average than metrics, so I would imagine he will go if he keeps up his pace. He was also something of a landmark player, which will mean something to the voters. If Ichiro were a shortstop I could see arguments, but as a rightfielder his defense is more spectacle than value. There are certain players who trascend OPS+, but a right fielder with no power and a poor batting eye is not one of them.

[Pghfan987]

I think he gets in with just a few more good years (which I fully expect that he will do). In comparison to Tony Gwynn, he is a slightly worse hitter, but a considerably better fielder and baserunner. He won't end up with the big career numbers (such as 3,000 hits), but he is already a 5 time all star, has 2 batting titles, a ROY, MVP, and 5 GGs. Not a bad start. Factor in those batting titles from Japan (however much weight you think they should hold- I think at least some), and Ichiro looks like a sure-fire bottom-tier first ballot HOFer.

If he had played his entire career in MLB, you have to figure something like 12 GGs, 7 batting titles, and 500+ SBs, and 3,500 hits would not have been out of reach for him at all when it was all said and done. He won't end up with those HOF totals, but he has HOF talent. Let him in.

Mark

[leecemark]

--I think all he needs is 5 more fairly decent years to get to the required 10 without embarassing himself. His value is probably going to be pretty low for a Hall of famer (it was low for an MVP when he won that too), but his fame and impact on the game make him a very strong candidate. That without giving him any crdit for what he did in the Japanese Leagues. If you factor that in he is going to be way over the Hall of Fame line.

[KCGHOST]

If he has five more seasons just like the five he has completed he will have 2260 hits. That usually isn't enough to get a singles hitter elected. Normally he would need 5 more decent year of decline to get that number up to an acceptable.

But, the question here is "will he make it" not "would I vote for him". My opinion is that if he has five more good seasons, regardless of decline, the voters will put him in. Too many people see him as a dominant player and will cut him some slack for his late arrival to the majors.

[leecemark]

--I think he deserves some "slack" since be arrived late to the majors due to dominating the 3rd best league on the planet before he got there. I do agree he is overrated by many. There are many players I'd choose before Ichiro if I were building a team from scratch. He is the best at what he does though and one of the best of his type player ever.

[jalbright]

If he has five more seasons just like the five he has completed he will have 2260 hits. That usually isn't enough to get a singles hitter elected. Normally he would need 5 more decent year of decline to get that number up to an acceptable.

But, the question here is "will he make it" not "would I vote for him". My opinion is that if he has five more good seasons, regardless of decline, the voters will put him in. Too many people see him as a dominant player and will cut him some slack for his late arrival to the majors.

Actually, you're not correct in all respects on this. I did a piece on Ichiro's status for the HOF, and a key finding is that outfielders with over 2100 hits and a .300 or better career average have done very well in reaching the Hall In fact, 12 out of the 16 outfielders who met these requirements despite having relatively low slugging percentages (under .450) have made it. Thus, if Ichiro plays 10 years in the majors, records at least 2000 major league hits, and has a career MLB average over .300, I think he makes it easily. At that point, he's clearly made a case for himself without considering his Japanese play--and he will get some benefit on that score. Personally, I regard that scenario as quite likely.

The article I am referring to can be found at : http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright31.html

Jim Albright

[Fry]

Is Ichiro gonna be HOF at the end of his career?

[jalbright]

We've looked at this issue in this 2003 thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=8497 , it was at least touched on in this discussion http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=512531&highlight=ichiro#post512531 and in this thread from this spring: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41677

Jim Albright

[brett]

1) Ichiro will get in. He will reach 2000 hits with a .320+ average and with the impact of being the first everyday player from Japan he will absolutely get in.

2) He is extremely overvalued. His on-base and slugging percentages are nothing by today's standards. He was one of the 5 worst MVP picks in history. He is not as good a hitter as Bill Madlock, Al Oliver, Keith Hernandez.

[brett]

1) Ichiro will get in. He will reach 2000 hits with a .320+ average and with the impact of being the first everyday player from Japan he will absolutely get in.

2) He is extremely overvalued. His on-base and slugging percentages are nothing by today's standards. He was one of the 5 worst MVP picks in history. He is not as good a hitter as Bill Madlock, Al Oliver, Keith Hernandez.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

1) Ichiro will get in. He will reach 2000 hits with a .320+ average and with the impact of being the first everyday player from Japan he will absolutely get in.

2) He is extremely overvalued. His on-base and slugging percentages are nothing by today's standards. He was one of the 5 worst MVP picks in history. He is not as good a hitter as Bill Madlock, Al Oliver, Keith Hernandez.
You convienently forgot to mention his outstanding defense and baserunning as well. If he was just a hitter and was a mediore defensive players and poor baserunner then it would be a close call as to his HoF credentials. But adding his defense and baserunning, it changes everything. He needs to age well and continue his pace. The 2010 season will be his 10th major league season.

[538280]

Perhaps the most overrated player in baseball today. His batting average is great and he racks up a ton of hits, but his aversion to walks and his minimal power make his value very questionable. He'll get in for sure, and probably deserves it too (it isn't the Hall of Value), but if it were the Hall of Value he would certainly never make mine.

[538280]

Perhaps the most overrated player in baseball today. His batting average is great and he racks up a ton of hits, but his aversion to walks and his minimal power make his value very questionable. He'll get in for sure, and probably deserves it too in a Lou Brock sort of way (it isn't the Hall of Value), but if it were the Hall of Value he would certainly never make mine.

Ichiro has been an elite fielder/baserunner, but this is a corner OF we're talking about here. No amount of fielding and baserunning can make up for his complete lack of power. Ichiro is just simply NOT a tremdously valuable player. There's no way you can make him into that.

[SABR Matt]

I flat out don't agree there Chris. And this is coming from soneone who bases his judgments of players on a strict analysis of their value and peak abilities. If Ichiro had played in America his whole career instead of spending 9 years in Japan, he'd have 2800-2900 hits by now and would be on pace for a Pete Rose-esque career hit total. Yes he has flaws in his game, but 2900 hits by age 32 has an enormous value...especially when it comes attached with one of the finest gloves in the game and outstanding foot speed.

When he had 262 hits in 2004, PCA rated him as the most valuable player of the AL and he was third in 2001, his rookie season.

[538280]

I flat out don't agree there Chris. And this is coming from soneone who bases his judgments of players on a strict analysis of their value and peak abilities. If Ichiro had played in America his whole career instead of spending 9 years in Japan, he'd have 2800-2900 hits by now and would be on pace for a Pete Rose-esque career hit total. Yes he has flaws in his game, but 2900 hits by age 32 has an enormous value...especially when it comes attached with one of the finest gloves in the game and outstanding foot speed.

When he had 262 hits in 2004, PCA rated him as the most valuable player of the AL and he was third in 2001, his rookie season.

Really, you had him as the MOST valuable player in 2004? That's a result very different from what other metrics (similar to yours in most results) have come up with. Why exactly is that?

The hit total is nice, but it has to come with other things. Here's a good comparison to Ichiro-Sam Rice. Rice didn't start his ML career until he was in his late 20s (for different reasons than Ichiro-his familiy got killed in a tornado accident when he was younger I believe, this delayed his progress), but playing basically half of what his career should have been, he got to 29871 hits-only 13 shy of 3000. If he had gotten a chance to play the first half of his career, it is not unreasonable to say he would be up there in the top 10 all time on the hits list.

This does NOT make Rice a very valuable player. Like Ichiro, he was a very good fielder/baserunner, and he hit for a very high average. But, also like Ichiro, his power was very much lacking, and he hardly ever took a walk. He did not provide the offensive production that you'd want from a corner OF, despite all the hits.

[dl4060]

You convienently forgot to mention his outstanding defense and baserunning as well. If he was just a hitter and was a mediore defensive players and poor baserunner then it would be a close call as to his HoF credentials. But adding his defense and baserunning, it changes everything. He needs to age well and continue his pace. The 2010 season will be his 10th major league season.

Adding defense and baserunning does not change all that much. He is a corner outfielder, not a shortstop or a catcher. Baserunning and defense help, it might get him over the top, but defense from a corner outfielder does not turn a "maybe" into first ballot. He is more spectacular than valuable.

[jalbright]

I flat out don't agree there Chris. And this is coming from soneone who bases his judgments of players on a strict analysis of their value and peak abilities. If Ichiro had played in America his whole career instead of spending 9 years in Japan, he'd have 2800-2900 hits by now and would be on pace for a Pete Rose-esque career hit total. Yes he has flaws in his game, but 2900 hits by age 32 has an enormous value...especially when it comes attached with one of the finest gloves in the game and outstanding foot speed.

When he had 262 hits in 2004, PCA rated him as the most valuable player of the AL and he was third in 2001, his rookie season.

In this article http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright31.html , I had Ichiro with 2244 hits through 2004 when combining my major league equivalents of his Japanese play with his major league record. Add in 2005 and this year's total from MLB, and he'd have 2603 through 7/30/2006.

Jim Albright

[SABR Matt]

In this article http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright31.html , I had Ichiro with 2244 hits through 2004 when combining my major league equivalents of his Japanese play with his major league record. Add in 2005 and this year's total from MLB, and he'd have 2603 through 7/30/2006.

Jim Albright

No disrespect to your efforts Jim, but he's got like 1300 major leauge hits now from age 27 to age 32...if he started ni the bigs at the same time he started in Japan, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him to have gotten 1600 hits in his first 9 seasons.

[Wade8813]

Ichiro has been an elite fielder/baserunner, but this is a corner OF we're talking about here. No amount of fielding and baserunning can make up for his complete lack of power. Ichiro is just simply NOT a tremdously valuable player. There's no way you can make him into that. There's no hard and fast rule stating that the corner OF needs to provide power. It's not important that a team gets power from a particular position; it's important that the team gets power from somewhere. Plus the Mariners play in a bad power park, which should be considered at least somewhat.

[jalbright]

My guess is the problem is easy to explain: you're assuming Ichiro was a polished product when he got in the top Japanese league. Unfortunately, Japan doesn't have a real minor league system outside of colleges and high school (teams have one farm club), so often talents come to the big club in need of polish. Ichiro might have been more ready than his club thought, as they tried to mess with his hitting style. Whatever the reason, in 1992 and 1993, Ichiro hit .253 and .188 in a total of 159 AB. I simply omitted those seasons from my projection. It's a heck of a lot easier to sell.

Jim Albright

[SABR Matt]

I would guess he'd have developed better in the American minor leagues and come into his game by age 19/20 and been immediately productive.

[brett]

You convienently forgot to mention his outstanding defense and baserunning as well. If he was just a hitter and was a mediore defensive players and poor baserunner then it would be a close call as to his HoF credentials. But adding his defense and baserunning, it changes everything. He needs to age well and continue his pace. The 2010 season will be his 10th major league season.

If he had played in the 70s and early 80s he would have been extremely valuable. Baserunning/stealing just is not worth as much in today's game, and neither is defense. It is valuable, just not particularly so.

[jalbright]

I would guess he'd have developed better in the American minor leagues and come into his game by age 19/20 and been immediately productive.
As he basically left high school to go to splitting time between the major club and the minor league club, you're giving him at least one season too many IMO. He might have blazed through the minors in a year, but I can't see him doing it any faster than that.

Jim Albright

[brett]

There's no hard and fast rule stating that the corner OF needs to provide power.

In today's game, a corner outfielder HAS to be a dynamic offensive player to be great. It need not be homeruns, but I would want at least 30 HRs OR a .400 on base% OR PHENOMINAL base stealing numbers in today's game (and nobody in todays game is a good enough base stealer to make up for lacking the other two).

Anyway, what's interesting is that he has homerun power. He could hit 20 homeruns a year without question and still hit .310 and probably draw more walks. I get the impression that he wants hits and that is all.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Perhaps the most overrated player in baseball today. His batting average is great and he racks up a ton of hits, but his aversion to walks and his minimal power make his value very questionable. He'll get in for sure, and probably deserves it too in a Lou Brock sort of way (it isn't the Hall of Value), but if it were the Hall of Value he would certainly never make mine.

Ichiro has been an elite fielder/baserunner, but this is a corner OF we're talking about here. No amount of fielding and baserunning can make up for his complete lack of power. Ichiro is just simply NOT a tremdously valuable player. There's no way you can make him into that.

I can only imagine what you think of Tony Gwynn.

Ichiro's a HOFer, and deservedly so.

[538280]

I can only imagine what you think of Tony Gwynn.

Ichiro's a HOFer, and deservedly so.

Actually Gwynn was a considerably better power hitter than Ichiro has been. Gwynn's OPS+ is 132, Ichiro's in 121. And Ichiro's is a mid career figure, which will go down. Gwynn was actually a much more valuable hitter than Ichiro.

[Williamsburg2599]

Ichiro is the greatest fielder of this decade, has the greatest arm of this decade, and one of the greatest baserunners of this decade. Add in his hitting, he's a HOF, maybe first-ballot, and I'll be sitting on the Cooperstown grass listening to his speech when he gets there. Cobb didn't need power.Gywnn didnt need power, and Ichiro doesn't need it either. You can win ballgames without hitting it over the fence everytime.

[538280]

There's no hard and fast rule stating that the corner OF needs to provide power. It's not important that a team gets power from a particular position; it's important that the team gets power from somewhere. Plus the Mariners play in a bad power park, which should be considered at least somewhat.

Ichiro comes out with a whopping 70 relative isolated slugging (SLG-BA) when park context is taken into account. :rolleyes:

In order for a corner OFer to be extremely valuable, he needs to hit for power. A team is expecting power from the corner outfield positions. If they don't get it from there, they need it from a place where is doesn't normally come from. We don't change the HOF standards just because a player is of a different style.

Certainly Ichiro is regarded to be a tremendous player today, and certainly he is a joy to watch. But I find him to be a completely selfish and purposely one dimensional player. You hear people on radio and TV talking all the time about how Ichiro could change his approach if he wanted, how he could hit for power and be more patient a draw walks. If this is true, and Ichiro INTENTIONALLY goes by the style he has now, that easily qualifies him for the title of the most selfish and self consumed player in baseball history. He's purposely making himself less valuable so that he can keep up his "excitement" and break hit records. And this is the guy who's supposed to have awesome value outside of the statistics?

Ichiro also bunted for a few base hits when he was trying to get the record, to hurt the team (leecemark, who watches the Mariners every day, has said this numerous times). That's really a great team guy. :rolleyes:

[538280]

Ichiro is the greatest fielder of this decade, has the greatest arm of this decade, and one of the greatest baserunners of this decade. Add in his hitting, he's a HOF, maybe first-ballot, and I'll be sitting on the Cooperstown grass listening to his speech when he gets there. Cobb didn't need power.Gywnn didnt need power, and Ichiro doesn't need it either.

Relative SLG
Cobb-140
Gwynn-115
Ichiro-106

You can win ballgames without hitting it over the fence everytime.

Not in the game in which Ichiro has played. Today, you NEED to be able to hit HRs to have a great offense.

[jalbright]

Not in the game in which Ichiro has played. Today, you NEED to be able to hit HRs to have a great offense.

Maybe as a team. But guys who get on base without making outs a la Ichiro are quite valuable, especially when they have the speed to take advantage of hits the sluggers behind them get. Ichiro's a heck of a leadoff man, which is quite valuable in itself. My only beef with him is I think he wouldn't lose much in average and would increase his overall effectiveness if he took more walks. Another 20 walks a year would be a big plus.

Jim Albright

[538280]

Maybe as a team. But guys who get on base without making outs a la Ichiro are quite valuable, especially when they have the speed to take advantage of hits the sluggers behind them get. Ichiro's a heck of a leadoff man, which is quite valuable in itself. My only beef with him is I think he wouldn't lose much in average and would increase his overall effectiveness if he took more walks. Another 20 walks a year would be a big plus.

Jim Albright

I would agree with you that Ichiro is an effective leadoff man, but he is quite clearly NOT one of the best in the history of the game. He isn't on Rickey Henderson or Tim Raines' caliber, he wouldn't be as good as Billy Hamilton, and probably a ton of others.

I think Ichiro probably will deserve the HOF like I said, in a Lou Brock sort of way. But I just don't see how he's a very valuable player. His style should NOT play a part in evaluating him as a ballplayer.

Bobby Abreu is getting rejected as a HOF candidate on the other thread. Here's a question for you-if you're buildng a team, who do you want, Ichiro or Bobby Abreu? I think you're delusional about value in a player if you'd take Ichiro.

[jalbright]

Bobby Abreu is getting rejected as a HOF candidate on the other thread. Here's a question for you-if you're buildng a team, who do you want, Ichiro or Bobby Abreu? I think you're delusional about value in a player if you'd take Ichiro.
If you're talking about the time they've been in the majors together, I'd agree. But, I'm not sure at this moment if Abreu isn't going into decline while Ichiro is still going. I'd think hard about Abreu over Ichiro today, to be sure. And if we're talking about their whole careers, assuming Ichiro would come to the majors as soon as he was ready instead of nine years into his professional career, I'd rather have Ichiro because I believe he would have had three or four more productive years than Abreu had. To me, the greater career length and the fact I suspect Ichiro is aging better would outweigh Abreu's advantages.

Jim Albright

[Wade8813]

Ichiro comes out with a whopping 70 relative isolated slugging (SLG-BA) when park context is taken into account. But wouldn't it make sense to have a playing style that isn't dependent on HRs, if your home park is bad for hitting them in?

Not in the game in which Ichiro has played. Today, you NEED to be able to hit HRs to have a great offense. How is it that you need HRs today, and didn't in the past?

Ichiro also bunted for a few base hits when he was trying to get the record, to hurt the team (leecemark, who watches the Mariners every day, has said this numerous times). That's really a great team guy. Ok, maybe I'm just displaying my ignorance here, but how is getting base hits by any means possible a bad thing? And why don't more people do it? We're talking about actual hits here - not a fielder's choice.

[538280]

But wouldn't it make sense to have a playing style that isn't dependent on HRs, if your home park is bad for hitting them in?

Other players have been able to hit HRs at Safeco. Let's not act like it's impossible. If you're an elite power hitter, there's no reason why you can't hit some at Safeco.

How is it that you need HRs today, and didn't in the past?

The game has changed today. Now everyone can hit HRs, and every team does. You're not going to win playing a deadball style game today, it's just not going to work.

Ok, maybe I'm just displaying my ignorance here, but how is getting base hits by any means possible a bad thing? And why don't more people do it? We're talking about actual hits here - not a fielder's choice.

You can be more valuable if maybe sacrifice a few hits to take a different approach that includes walking and hitting for power. That IS provably true in any era, and especially this one. You always hear people say that if Ichiro wanted to, he could take that approach (which is provably more valuable). That's a very selfish move on his part not to take it, since he apparently can.

[538280]

If you're talking about the time they've been in the majors together, I'd agree. But, I'm not sure at this moment if Abreu isn't going into decline while Ichiro is still going. I'd think hard about Abreu over Ichiro today, to be sure. And if we're talking about their whole careers, assuming Ichiro would come to the majors as soon as he was ready instead of nine years into his professional career, I'd rather have Ichiro because I believe he would have had three or four more productive years than Abreu had. To me, the greater career length and the fact I suspect Ichiro is aging better would outweigh Abreu's advantages.

Jim Albright

What makes you think Abreu is wearing down? His power has been gong down a bit, but he's walking even more. Generally, players like Abreu who have MANY strong skills age very well, since if they lose one skill to old age they still have the other skills to work off of. Ichiro is actually a type of player who doesn't always age well-since his game is so dependant on speed, and many (most?) players lose that as they get older.

[jalbright]

What makes you think Abreu is wearing down? His power has been gong down a bit, but he's walking even more. Generally, players like Abreu who have MANY strong skills age very well, since if they lose one skill to old age they still have the other skills to work off of. Ichiro is actually a type of player who doesn't always age well-since his game is so dependant on speed, and many (most?) players lose that as they get older.

See if you spot the trend:


Year avg HR/season slg
2004 0.301 30 0.544
2005 0.286 24 0.474
2006 0.277 13* 0.434

*-extrapolated to full season

Did you know that Abreu has 14 or 15 HR since the all-star break last year? Yeah, he's walking even more, but that is often a sign of a guy slowing down, especially when combined with a broad based decline trend elsewhere like this. He might recover, but right now, I think there's reason to question it.

Jim Albright

[baseball junkie]

Ichiro and the Hall of Fame seems like a done deal. I just wish he could have played his whole career in MLB. If he had, I think he realistically could have challenged Rose for the all-time career hits record.

If I'm not mistaken, he already owns Sisler's old single season mark. He'll be our first Japanese MLB player in the HOF. Thing is, there doesn't seem to be a steady stream of talent coming from Japan. Hideki Matsui is good but by no means great. Other than Ichiro and Hideki (and Nomo in the past) I can't think of any Japanese players in the MLB that are reaching "star" status.

I realize Tadahito Iguchi, Akinori Otsuka & Kenji Johjima are all contributing to their teams this year but none of them are exactly star players. I hope this trend reverses and more talent starts to arrive from Japan.

It seems like for every Ichiro there is a So Taguchi and for every Tadihito Iguchi there is a Kaz Matsui and for every Hideo Nomo there is a Hideki Irabu.

[brett]

Maybe as a team. But guys who get on base without making outs a la Ichiro are quite valuable, especially when they have the speed to take advantage of hits the sluggers behind them get. Ichiro's a heck of a leadoff man, which is quite valuable in itself. My only beef with him is I think he wouldn't lose much in average and would increase his overall effectiveness if he took more walks. Another 20 walks a year would be a big plus.

Jim Albright

I suspect that Ichiro has led the major in "making outs" over his first 5 seasons.

Here is Net Aggregate Bases by hit, walk, hbp or steal

versus out by out at bat, time caught stealing and grounding into double play.

Ichiro
Season---01---02---03---04---05
NAB------410--379--372--409--382
Out------467--462--478--459--486

Five Year NAB=1952
Five Year Outs=2352
NAB per out=0.830

Abreu
Season---01---02---03---04---05
NAB------462--436--403--484--444
Out------445--419--426--411--436

Five Year NAB=2229
Five Year Outs=2137
NAB per out=1.043

I forgot to remove a NAB for a time caught stealing, but they both would be quite similar over that span.

[538280]

See if you spot the trend:


Year avg HR/season slg
2004 0.301 30 0.544
2005 0.286 24 0.474
2006 0.277 13* 0.434

*-extrapolated to full season

Did you know that Abreu has 14 or 15 HR since the all-star break last year? Yeah, he's walking even more, but that is often a sign of a guy slowing down, especially when combined with a broad based decline trend elsewhere like this. He might recover, but right now, I think there's reason to question it.

Jim Albright

You are right, it seems Abreu may be heading downhill. But, the move to YS should be good for him, and it is true that players of his skill set tend to age very well. So, only time will tell.

[yankillaz]

What makes you think Abreu is wearing down? His power has been gong down a bit, but he's walking even more. Generally, players like Abreu who have MANY strong skills age very well, since if they lose one skill to old age they still have the other skills to work off of. Ichiro is actually a type of player who doesn't always age well-since his game is so dependant on speed, and many (most?) players lose that as they get older.

Ummmm....

Let me tell you a nice story.

Back in 1992, at season's end, Tony Gwynn wasn't regarded as the best hitter in the game. Wade Boggs took advantage of Fenway like nobody, with a whopping lifetime BA. at the time of .342. Puckett was hitting in the .320's. Mattingly was hitting .311 with power, although he had back problems. Gwynn wa hitting .318-.319 at the time. But someone saw he had it in him...that someone was Ted Williams himself!!! He tought Gwynn to pull the ball more, since he already achieved mastery in the small ball. Gwynn did just that...and guess what??? He's the greatest hitter in the game post-Ted Williams.

Ichiro is hitting .332 lifetime!!! People thought he was done by 2003, and he came up and broke an old season record!!! The guy started hitting in the lows .200 by may, and he's third in BA!!! The guy's a robot!!!

He's smart enough to know when his skills will diminish, so he will take the walk, that's just not in his game. OK, so you will come up with no taking the walk he hurts his team...he helps his team way more than say the aforemention Bobby Abreu did to his!!! And Abreu has more power!!!

God!!! Ichiro is the best fielding corner outfield in all baseball. Only Crawford and Reyes are quicker...i think. The guy has a great bat control. Penny struck him out in the ASG...that was the first time i saw him striking out, and i've seen some games. He knows his strengths and takes advantage of them.

BTW...why is Ichiro a corner outfielder? The guy has a great glove, covers lots of ground, has good speed...shouldn't he be a centerfielder...he has played it, not? NOPE!!! The guy has a CANNON arm!!! And he's 5'9"!!!!

He's not overrated, he's going to the HOF. And whoever says otherwise must be on medication...to not say the worse.

[jalbright]

You are right, it seems Abreu may be heading downhill. But, the move to YS should be good for him, and it is true that players of his skill set tend to age very well. So, only time will tell.

The other issue with Abreu (and I like the guy--he was one of the few reasons to watch my home area Phillies for several years) is he is thin skinned. If he doesn't produce at a level of at least last season overall, he'll get more than his share of criticism in the Big Apple. That might be his undoing. I thought the tail off in the second half of last year was due to injury, and it's possible he's been distracted by being trade bait this year. But if he's that thin skinned and doesn't quickly produce, he might wish he was back in Philly. If all that comes to pass, he could be done really fast. I hope not, but I can't pretend it's not a reasonable scenario.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Ichiro and the Hall of Fame seems like a done deal. I just wish he could have played his whole career in MLB. If he had, I think he realistically could have challenged Rose for the all-time career hits record.

If I'm not mistaken, he already owns Sisler's old single season mark. He'll be our first Japanese MLB player in the HOF. Thing is, there doesn't seem to be a steady stream of talent coming from Japan. Hideki Matsui is good but by no means great. Other than Ichiro and Hideki (and Nomo in the past) I can't think of any Japanese players in the MLB that are reaching "star" status.

I realize Tadahito Iguchi, Akinori Otsuka & Kenji Johjima are all contributing to their teams this year but none of them are exactly star players. I hope this trend reverses and more talent starts to arrive from Japan.

It seems like for every Ichiro there is a So Taguchi and for every Tadihito Iguchi there is a Kaz Matsui and for every Hideo Nomo there is a Hideki Irabu.

So long as the Japanese rules remain that a player can't leave his team (unless the team allows it) until he's put in 9 years with the top club and the majors don't actively pursue Japanese high schoolers and collegians (as is the case now), the pool each year will be limited and at or past its peak when it comes stateside. There are lots more Iguchi, Jojima, and Otsuka caliber players, as Japan's performance in the World Baseball Cup demonstrated. There are few if any who can be counted on to produce more than 30 HR a year, which means pitchers and leadoff types at key infield spots are the best chances for MLB stardom--and pitchers are frequently overused in Japan, so by the time they can come over, they're near the end of the line.

Jim Albright

[Williamsburg2599]

Ummmm....

Let me tell you a nice story.

Back in 1992, at season's end, Tony Gwynn wasn't regarded as the best hitter in the game. Wade Boggs took advantage of Fenway like nobody, with a whopping lifetime BA. at the time of .342. Puckett was hitting in the .320's. Mattingly was hitting .311 with power, although he had back problems. Gwynn wa hitting .318-.319 at the time. But someone saw he had it in him...that someone was Ted Williams himself!!! He tought Gwynn to pull the ball more, since he already achieved mastery in the small ball. Gwynn did just that...and guess what??? He's the greatest hitter in the game post-Ted Williams.

Ichiro is hitting .332 lifetime!!! People thought he was done by 2003, and he came up and broke an old season record!!! The guy started hitting in the lows .200 by may, and he's third in BA!!! The guy's a robot!!!

He's smart enough to know when his skills will diminish, so he will take the walk, that's just not in his game. OK, so you will come up with no taking the walk he hurts his team...he helps his team way more than say the aforemention Bobby Abreu did to his!!! And Abreu has more power!!!

God!!! Ichiro is the best fielding corner outfield in all baseball. Only Crawford and Reyes are quicker...i think. The guy has a great bat control. Penny struck him out in the ASG...that was the first time i saw him striking out, and i've seen some games. He knows his strengths and takes advantage of them.

BTW...why is Ichiro a corner outfielder? The guy has a great glove, covers lots of ground, has good speed...shouldn't he be a centerfielder...he has played it, not? NOPE!!! The guy has a CANNON arm!!! And he's 5'9"!!!!

He's not overrated, he's going to the HOF. And whoever says otherwise must be on medication...to not say the worse.
Could not agree more. Everyone year people talk about him losing a step, and every year he proves those people wrong.

[Sliding Billy]

Against the Red Sox I saw Ichiro try to score when the ball was there waiting for him. He ran full-tilt at the catcher (Tek or Mirabelli, I forget), then as the catcher reached out for the tag, he came to a dead stop, out of reach, and then dove completely over the sprawling catcher, onto the plate. He was called out, but looking at the replay I thought he was safe.

[538280]

Ummmm....

Let me tell you a nice story.

Back in 1992, at season's end, Tony Gwynn wasn't regarded as the best hitter in the game. Wade Boggs took advantage of Fenway like nobody, with a whopping lifetime BA. at the time of .342. Puckett was hitting in the .320's. Mattingly was hitting .311 with power, although he had back problems. Gwynn wa hitting .318-.319 at the time. But someone saw he had it in him...that someone was Ted Williams himself!!! He tought Gwynn to pull the ball more, since he already achieved mastery in the small ball. Gwynn did just that...and guess what??? He's the greatest hitter in the game post-Ted Williams.

Ichiro is hitting .332 lifetime!!! People thought he was done by 2003, and he came up and broke an old season record!!! The guy started hitting in the lows .200 by may, and he's third in BA!!! The guy's a robot!!!

He's smart enough to know when his skills will diminish, so he will take the walk, that's just not in his game. OK, so you will come up with no taking the walk he hurts his team...he helps his team way more than say the aforemention Bobby Abreu did to his!!! And Abreu has more power!!!

God!!! Ichiro is the best fielding corner outfield in all baseball. Only Crawford and Reyes are quicker...i think. The guy has a great bat control. Penny struck him out in the ASG...that was the first time i saw him striking out, and i've seen some games. He knows his strengths and takes advantage of them.

BTW...why is Ichiro a corner outfielder? The guy has a great glove, covers lots of ground, has good speed...shouldn't he be a centerfielder...he has played it, not? NOPE!!! The guy has a CANNON arm!!! And he's 5'9"!!!!

He's not overrated, he's going to the HOF. And whoever says otherwise must be on medication...to not say the worse.

I think we're getting ourselves confused here. Great and exciting talent and style do not make a ballplayer that truly does things for his team. It is nice that Ichiro has a style to match anyone in history, it's a joy to watch him slap singles all over the field and make tremendous throws from right field. Certainly there are very few players who have the true talent for the game that Ichiro has.

My contention is that this should have close to nothing with evaluating Ichiro as a ballplayer. We should look at what he actually does for his team, and I think looking at it that way you'll see his contributions are thin. Bobby Abreu may not have the excitement, the appealing style, or be a true fan favorite. He may not be breaking records or being on Sportscenter every night. Again, that has nothing to do with the way we should evaluate him.

I really think that when people look at Ichiro, they talk about his unbelieveable raw talents. The measure of a player is not how fast he can, not how far he can throw the ball, not how far he can hit the ball. It is not based on whether he has an appealing style. It is based on what a player does for his team. I think we've lost sight of that, here, Ichiro is a perfect example.

His raw talent can lead you to believe he helps his team more than less aesthetically impressive player like Bobby Abreu. That doesn't make him a better ballplayer. Let's focus on actual accomplishments here.

There are many examples like this, Joe Morgan was always hampered by his not as awesome raw talent. Ted Williams vs. Joe DiMaggio would be a classic debate here. DiMaggio had more talent, he was NOT the better player.

[yankillaz]

I like the DiMaggio-Williams comparison. But does this means Bobby Abreu did more to his team than Ichiro to his for the past 5 seasons?

Are you measuring the effects, non-statistical that a player like Ichiro has, and we can also bring stats to the table. I recall sending you an article as how Jose Reyes has made clear this season that his speed in the paths clearly makes up for the OBP differential that other players have above him. An OBP does not guarantee a run scored, but sb's, speed when running in a hit and run situation...those things score runs nowadays. For some reason Ichiro has scored 100+ runs in the past 5 seasons, in an anemic lineup such as Seattle's. Ichiro averages a run scored every 6.58 PA's while Abreu does it in 6.80 PA's, prior to this season. And isn't the goal of an on base machine to score runs...not DRIVE in. Ichiro's "lack" of patience (something he will be doing better with age, believe me) fares best than Abreu's. Ok, you might say, a leadoff hitter should score more than a Third Hitter. Is that true? Go check on the recent leaders on the department, you might get surprises. Sometimes the best hitter on the team hits in the cleanoff spot or in the fifth spot.

Then we go to RAW Power. Ichiro stands 5'9" and 160 lb. Bobby Abreu has PED Issues according to some. End of conversation. We cannot expect Ichiro to have towering power.

Deffense: Ichiro.

Speed: Ichiro.

Average: Ichiro.

What are we talking here???

I like Bill James's system and all, but sometimes these things go beyond stats...(i have Abreu over Ichiro as an All-Time Right Fielder BTW). Is an in game situation. Things a player can create...and DOES create.

[Mariano_Rivera]

10.0, 8.3, 7.9, 9.8, 9.0, 8.3. Those are Ichiro's WARP 3 numbers since he joined the MLB. He has 53.3 over his career over 6 years. If he had started his career in the MLB over a short career at this pace it would have taken about 12 years to reach the milestone 100 WARP 3. This is him over his prime alone.

[brett]

For some reason Ichiro has scored 100+ runs in the past 5 seasons, in an anemic lineup such as Seattle's.



Try to find a player who batted leadoff for roughly this many at-bats and didn't score at least CLOSE to as many runs:

692, 647, 679, 704 and 679

What about OUTS per run scored. He has averaged 4.184 OUTS (at the plate or CS, not counting double plays) over his first 5 years.

Abreu has average 3.860 outs per run scored over the last 5.

Rickey Henderson averaged only 3.591 outs per run for his entire 25 year career in a run-deficient era.

Wade Boggs average 4.101 outs per run and he was no speedster.

Kenny Lofton 3.791 career (granted a potent lineup behind him)

Damon 4.159 career

Raines 4.082 career

[538280]

I like the DiMaggio-Williams comparison. But does this means Bobby Abreu did more to his team than Ichiro to his for the past 5 seasons?

Are you measuring the effects, non-statistical that a player like Ichiro has, and we can also bring stats to the table. I recall sending you an article as how Jose Reyes has made clear this season that his speed in the paths clearly makes up for the OBP differential that other players have above him. An OBP does not guarantee a run scored, but sb's, speed when running in a hit and run situation...those things score runs nowadays. For some reason Ichiro has scored 100+ runs in the past 5 seasons, in an anemic lineup such as Seattle's. Ichiro averages a run scored every 6.58 PA's while Abreu does it in 6.80 PA's, prior to this season. And isn't the goal of an on base machine to score runs...not DRIVE in. Ichiro's "lack" of patience (something he will be doing better with age, believe me) fares best than Abreu's. Ok, you might say, a leadoff hitter should score more than a Third Hitter. Is that true? Go check on the recent leaders on the department, you might get surprises. Sometimes the best hitter on the team hits in the cleanoff spot or in the fifth spot.

Ichiro has scored a whopping 10 more runs per 162 games than Abreu. That's despite him batting leadoff to ABreu's third, and despite Ichiro having 59 more PAs in that time and making 58 more outs. Going from a runs scored/PA, which is MUCH more fair to Abreu, he's been the more prolific run scorer. And of course, unlike Ichiro, Abreu drives in almost as many as he scores.

The SB advantage is not nearly as big as you're making it out to be. Abreu has stolen quite a few bases himself, 29 per 162 versus 39 for Ichiro.



Then we go to RAW Power. Ichiro stands 5'9" and 160 lb. Bobby Abreu has PED Issues according to some. End of conversation. We cannot expect Ichiro to have towering power.

Deffense: Ichiro.

Speed: Ichiro.

Average: Ichiro.

What are we talking here???

We cannot give Ichiro a break on power simply because of his size. With you physique comes certain strengths and weaknesses, if Ichiro's physique brings less power, that is a detriment to him. We can't just toss that aside, it is something Abreu does and Ichiro does not that brings him more value.

Evaluating players on their tools is exactly what I'm talking about here. That is just not a legitimate way to evaluate them. Rather than saying "Ichiro has a better average, more speed, and is a better fielder-so he has to be better!", why not check what those skills actually do for his team, versus what Abreu's skill set does. Look past raw talent and ability, focus on what actually helps the team. In all the baseball games I've watched, I've once seen an extra run awarded because a player was so exciting or had an appealing style. Those things have no value in the game of baseball. We owe it to all players to evaluate them minus those natural biases.

I like Bill James's system and all, but sometimes these things go beyond stats...(i have Abreu over Ichiro as an All-Time Right Fielder BTW). Is an in game situation. Things a player can create...and DOES create.[/QUOTE]

[Brad Harris]

I was doing some research this afternoon on Ichiro Suzuki and noticed that his 1,331 hits (coming into today) are the all-time record for hits over any six-consecutive year period of time. The previous record holder was Jesse Burkett (with 1,313). And the season's not even over yet! Wow!

Ichrio has also had his sixth consecutive 200-hit season. Only Wee Willie Keeler (8) and Wade Boggs (7) have more.

Anyone who doesn't believe Ichiro is a future Hall-of-Famer needs to take another look at what he's done in his 6 seasons here.

Simply amazing.

If he plays 10 seasons in the majors, there's no way you can keep him out.

[overhandgas53]

I agree with you coop. 200 hits in 6 straight (and starting the streak in his rookie year!:D) is simply amazing. He also has a great glove with 4 or 5 consecutive gold gloves, ROY, and the single season hits record. HOF once he gets on the ballot.

[LouGehrig]

I was doing some research this afternoon on Ichiro Suzuki and noticed that his 1,331 hits (coming into today) are the all-time record for hits over any six-consecutive year period of time. The previous record holder was Jesse Burkett (with 1,313). And the season's not even over yet! Wow!

Ichrio has also had his sixth consecutive 200-hit season. Only Wee Willie Keeler (8) and Wade Boggs (7) have more.

Anyone who doesn't believe Ichiro is a future Hall-of-Famer needs to take another look at what he's done in his 6 seasons here.

Simply amazing.

If he plays 10 seasons in the majors, there's no way you can keep him out.


You are correct, without a doubt, but those fans who believe the David Ortiz concept that home runs and power wins championships will hesitate.

Of course, it is difficult for those fans to explain how teams that hit few home runs often score as many runs in a season as those who do hit home runs.

[EvanAparra]

You are correct, without a doubt, but those fans who believe the David Ortiz concept that home runs and power wins championships will hesitate.

Of course, it is difficult for those fans to explain how teams that hit few home runs often score as many runs in a season as those who do hit home runs.


Yeah, well give me David Ortiz, Ryan Howard, Manny Ramirez, and Albert Pujols and i'll give you Ichiro, Michael Young, Derek Jeter, and Grady Sizemore and we'll see who scores more runs. Power scores runs, however way you look at it. HR is just one facet of power numbers, and id say that they team that hits the most HR and 2B will score more than the singles hitters.

Although im still an Ichiro fan, thats not a very good arguement.

[Williamsburg2599]

I was doing some research this afternoon on Ichiro Suzuki and noticed that his 1,331 hits (coming into today) are the all-time record for hits over any six-consecutive year period of time. The previous record holder was Jesse Burkett (with 1,313). And the season's not even over yet! Wow!

Ichrio has also had his sixth consecutive 200-hit season. Only Wee Willie Keeler (8) and Wade Boggs (7) have more.

Anyone who doesn't believe Ichiro is a future Hall-of-Famer needs to take another look at what he's done in his 6 seasons here.

Simply amazing.

If he plays 10 seasons in the majors, there's no way you can keep him out.
He'll be in some day, and I'll be sitting there in my lawn chair at his induction:).
http://www.d-units.net/blog/archives/images/ichiro.jpg
http://www.doubledogmusic.com/images/2005/ichiro_catch_large.jpg
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20011020/ichirocatch20a.jpg

[SamtheBravesFan]

Ichiro would be a very interesting case if he keeps this up. :)

[EvanAparra]

Ichiro would be a very interesting case if he keeps this up. :)


Since its the baseball HOF, will his Japan stats count for anything?

[Williamsburg2599]

Since its the baseball HOF, will his Japan stats count for anything?
According to the HOF they shouldn't, but who knows if the writers who actully make the discisons will consider them?

[Seattle1]

He also broke the AL record for most consecutive stolen bases without being caught yesterday. Broke Willie Wilson's record in Kansas City. How d'ya like that! Watch out Vince Coleman, here comes Ichiro!

:clapping

[Fuzzy Bear]

Since its the baseball HOF, will his Japan stats count for anything?

Ichiro has had a great short career, and while his Japanese stats shouldn't really count, Ichiro IS a player of historical significance. He'll go in.

[mac195]

According to the HOF they shouldn't,
Really? Has someone at the HOF made a statement about this?

[Williamsburg2599]

Really? Has someone at the HOF made a statement about this?
Well there the National Hall of Fame(which I oppose to, I beleve that they should change thier name to the Internationl Hall of Fame), so one would assume they won't count international stats, I beleve they have made some statement like that before, but the fact that he has to play 10 years here before coming elgiable makes it hard for him to get in in the first place.

[Edgartohof]

I was doing some research this afternoon on Ichiro Suzuki and noticed that his 1,331 hits (coming into today) are the all-time record for hits over any six-consecutive year period of time. The previous record holder was Jesse Burkett (with 1,313). And the season's not even over yet! Wow!

Now I'm pretty sure that Burkett is the former record holder, but in my own counting, I can only seem to come up with 1301 for his best 6 consecutive years (he also has 1300 in a six consecutive year run as well). Not a big issue but I thought I would mention it.

I also believe that Burkett holds the record for most hits in a 7 consecutive year span as well (1526 hits I believe). And with Ichiro getting another 2 hits today, bringing his total to 1333, he only needs 193 more to reach that record. With the pace he is on, he should get about another 18 hits this season, which would leave him with only 175 to tie the record, and he should have that done by early September next year, if not sooner, leaving him plenty of time to demolish the record.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Really? Has someone at the HOF made a statement about this?

The requirement for enshrinement into the National Baseball HOF is 10 years in the MAJOR LEAGUES in America.

If writers want to give weight to Ichiro's Japanese years, that's up to them.

I personally wouldn't mind if Sadaharu Oh were inducted into the HOF, but I'm afraid that it would set a precedent that would induct Kaz Matsui. Yeeech.

[Williamsburg2599]

http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright31.html

Here's a great article on Ichiro and the HOF, written by BBF's own Jim Albright.

[mac195]

Well there the National Hall of Fame(which I oppose to, I beleve that they should change thier name to the Internationl Hall of Fame), so one would assume they won't count international stats,

I don't see any problem with maintaining it as a "National" Hall of Fame. They could establishing guidelines which specify that voters should only consider MLB stats. But as far as I know, this has not been done. Voters will be free to consider the whole of Ichiro's career when they decide about inducting him into the HOF.

[JimAbbott]

Yep, He's a HOFer. 1st Asian to be inducted, and 1st ballot no doubt

[leecemark]

I don't see any problem with maintaining it as a "National" Hall of Fame. They could establishing guidelines which specify that voters should only consider MLB stats. But as far as I know, this has not been done. Voters will be free to consider the whole of Ichiro's career when they decide about inducting him into the HOF.


--Once he gets his 10 MLB years in the voters can consider whatever they want. Basically I think playing the 4 more years required to be eligible is the ONLY thing Ichiro has to do to get elected. They don't even have to be especially good ones.

[SABR Matt]

The question is...who'll be the first Mariner in the HOF...Edgar Martinez or Ichiro? :) It's going to take the voters a while to get over their purist dogma and take their blinders off and realize that Edgar is a slam dunk HOFer...so Ichiro probably has time to play 8 more years or so, retire, and get inducted 5 years later before Edgar gets in. :(

[leecemark]

--I don't want to side track this thread by focussing on Edgar, but it isn't ONLY his being a DH that will cause him trouble with the voters. His counting stats are not overwhelming. Pretty similar to Albert Belle, who could play the field and run the bases reasonably well - and did not fare well his first time up before the voters.

[SABR Matt]

Albert Belle did not fair well because he was an ass to the media who just happen to be voting for him. Edgar was a saint. There will only be one major issue facing Edgar, really...the voters have put in short-career guys before when they demonstrated a dominance over their position...the voters will see Martinez as without a position to dominate and vote accordingly.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The requirement for enshrinement into the National Baseball HOF is 10 years in the MAJOR LEAGUES in America.

If writers want to give weight to Ichiro's Japanese years, that's up to them.

I personally wouldn't mind if Sadaharu Oh were inducted into the HOF, but I'm afraid that it would set a precedent that would induct Kaz Matsui. Yeeech.
Ichiro's Japanese stats will probably carry some weight but he will get into the HoF without them IMO. It's a good bet that Ichiro will have well over 2000hits. The voters wil see that he had a late start in the majors and not hold it against him

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Albert Belle did not fair well because he was an ass to the media who just happen to be voting for him. Edgar was a saint. There will only be one major issue facing Edgar, really...the voters have put in short-career guys before when they demonstrated a dominance over their position...the voters will see Martinez as without a position to dominate and vote accordingly.
Edgar is a easily a HOFer IMO. If only he had played a few more seasons at 3B. If Edgar had played most of his career at 3B his HoF induction would be a forgone conclusion. Amongst third baseman I'd probably rank him with Frank Baker I guess. Where would you rank Edgar amongst third basemen, Matt?

[DoubleX]

Yeah, well give me David Ortiz, Ryan Howard, Manny Ramirez, and Albert Pujols and i'll give you Ichiro, Michael Young, Derek Jeter, and Grady Sizemore and we'll see who scores more runs. Power scores runs, however way you look at it. HR is just one facet of power numbers, and id say that they team that hits the most HR and 2B will score more than the singles hitters.

Although im still an Ichiro fan, thats not a very good arguement.

How exactly is the defensive alignment going to work on that team? A DH, 2 1Bman, and a LFer.

Power and slugging does not always win - pitching, defense, athleticism, and fundamental play is a better recipe for winning. Look at the power numbers of the Yankees in the late 90's, only one 40 homerun season, and that was the only year since 96 that the team didn't win the division (but won the Wild Card before losing in the division series). Look at the '02 Angels. The '03 Marlins. The Braves for most of their long run were not a power team either.

The team you put together sounds a lot like the Rangers of a few years back - A-Rod, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, I-Rod, and that team stunk (and that team had the advantage of talent at SS and C, whereas your team is almost entirely a lead-footed 1B team).

Sound fundamental baseball with multi-talented, athletic, and smart players, has always been a winning recipe.

[jalbright]

I personally wouldn't mind if Sadaharu Oh were inducted into the HOF, but I'm afraid that it would set a precedent that would induct Kaz Matsui. Yeeech.

Even if you elected Oh, K. Matsui's not in his class in Japan, and never would have been. Oh's selection wouldn't devolve down to Kaz in Cooperstown.

And thanks for the notice of the article on Ichiro. I just preferred not to repeat myself at BBF in posting that link.

Jim Albright

[hubkittel]

it's not just the numbers-ichiro is a player of historical significance. while not the first japanese player in mlb, he is the first great player to come over from japan and continue playing at a high level. correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't ichiro the first everyday player to come over from japan? he dispelled the idea that everyday players from japan couldn't play in the majors. he's a pioneer and, when you combine that with the numbers, a hall of famer.

[Brad Harris]

All of you have made great points!

Ichiro is, indeed, a player of historical significance, in addition to his on-field accomplishments.

For the record, the previous leader in hits over a six-year span was Wee Willie Keeler who had 1,313 from 1894-1899.

Ichiro will be the first Mariner inducted unless Randy Johnson goes in with a Seattle cap (which is a good possibility.)

Edgar Martinez belongs, as does Belle. Neither will be elected by the BBWAA.

As for Ichiro, I think leecemark summed it up best; we're just counting down the seasons at this point.

[mtortolero]

Ichiro is becoming with each year passing in a hitter more depedent of his speed to get on base. 170 of his 207 hits are singles and a lot of them infield hits. And this year he is one of the worst M´s hitters with runners on scoring possition or inclusive with runners on base.
I am afraid that we will see in the next two or three years the loose of one step in his speed by aging and then those +200 hits will dissapear. I hope this happens after he gets at least 2000 hits.

[mwiggins]

He'll get in because he's flashy and famous and because he has an MVP, but he should be very borderline. Edgar has a much better case, and I'm very much against the DH. But Ichiro's defense and baserunning aren't enough to make up a Martinez's 26 point advantage in OPS+. Among current OF's, guys like Vlad Guerrero and Brian Giles have had much better careers so far. Even with all Ichiro's hits, both players still get on base more than he does, esp. Giles, and both hit for a lot more power. Baserunning and steals and defense can only do so much.

BUT, the voters have never been known for their smart voting, so he'll get in without much a problem.

[leecemark]

--Ichiro has qualifications beyond his actual value. He was the first Asian position player to crossover to MLB and his success opened the door for a new wave of talent. His talents are also far more unique than somebody like Brian Giles, even though Giles may well be the better player. It is the hall of FAME after all and uniqueness and historical significance are almost (and sometimes more) important to who makes (and deserves) induction than sheer stat sheet value.

[EdmondsFan#1]

How many people think that Ichiro will make the HoF? I think the obvious answer would definetly be "yes" but you have to consider that he started his career late because he was playing japanese ball. I'm kind of neutral on the subject because he (most likely) won't have a long career so he might not put up as big of numbers as other HoFers'. If I had to choose between yes or no I would choose yes though. Because although he may not have the career totals that are HoF material (assuming his career only lasts 6 more years or so) he will look excellent in comparison. Also he is a very good defensive right fielder, won a Silver Slugger, Mvp, and Rookie of Year award, and he has stayed away from injuries in his career. It definetly helps that every year he has played he has been an all star and he was playing for them when they had the 116 win season.

So basically the question is will he be a HoF or will his career not last long enough. Who knows, he could even get injured and end in 2 years (keep in mind that man is 33 now...)

[AlecBoy006]

Yes, yes, yes.

He has had 200 hits every season. Including his 04 signature season for one of the worst teams of all time.

[milladrive]

For my tastes, it's still a little early to tell after only six MLB seasons. However, I see no signs of him slowing up, or any reason for his talent to just disappear. If he keeps up the numbers for another few seasons, I think he'll be a sure thing.

[tearforamariner]

Yes, yes, yes.

He has had 200 hits every season. Including his 04 signature season for one of the worst teams of all time.

Whaaa? The Mariners were bad in 2004. They sucked. But to call them the worst team of all-time? They weren't even the worst team in the AL that year. The Royals lost 104 games. Since 2001, 12 teams have lost 100 games, something the 2004 Mariners did not do. How is this even one of the worst 10 teams of this decade?

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I think that it will be an issue with some writers that he didn't play a "full" career. Who knows, but I have a feeling that there will be some who won't vote for him at all because of it. Personally, I don't think he'll get in. Just a gut feeling, but I'm going with it.

[jalbright]

If Ichiro gets over 2100 hits in the majors, he'll have met the standards usually set for major league outfielders to make the HOF as he'll almost certainly have a .300 career average in the majors to boot. This gives him absolutely no credit for his 7 consecutive Japanese batting titles. He'll have the single season hit record, several gold gloves, at least 7 or 8 all-star appearances, an MVP and several batting titles. That should be more than enough.

Jim Albright

[cutchemist42]

I still think for Ichiro's case, his greatness in Japan shoud be considered slightly for his HOF chances. His numbers only dropped slightly across the board which should perhaps what he could have done in MLB if his whole career was spent there.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Not to mention the great defense and baserunning.

[Edgartohof]

he'll almost certainly have a .300 career average in the majors to boot.

He could hit .269 for the next 6 seasons and STILL have a .300 BA :)

And out of his Professional career (both Japan and US), he already has over 2600 hits, not to bad for a 32 year old!!!

[Fuzzy Bear]

No player has accrued hits at the rate Ichiro has accrued them in some time.

Despite his late start, Ichiro has a chance for 3,000 hits.

His career will be enough to put him in the HOF, even though he played up through his early prime years in Japan.

[538280]

I totally agree with Mwiggins. Ichiro is not as good as guys like Brian Giles or Bobby Abreu. It's not so hard to pick out the most overrated player in baseball today-it's Ichiro. Despite all those hits, he gets on base less than both of those guys, and his power is nothing. I totally agree with Mwiggins when he says that baserunning, defense, and steals can only take you so far, and they clearly don't take Ichiro far enough, with his offense being well below HOF levels for a corner OF.

However, I also agree with leecemark that Ichiro has qualifications outside his numbers and that it is the Hall of FAME, so I probably would support Ichiro. But he does not deserve it IMO strictly on his playing merits.

[Edgartohof]

No player has accrued hits at the rate Ichiro has accrued them in some time.

Despite his late start, Ichiro has a chance for 3,000 hits.


Well he will pass the half way mark next season, so we will see how far he goes.

What amazes me, is that his best years may have been in Japan. I mean his best season in Japan was in '94, when he hit .385 and had 210 hits in only 130 games (on pace for 262 hits in 162 games :) ). I mean if he was winning batting titles over there (7 consecutive BA titles in fact), and has won a couple over here, it just points to the idea that he would at least have been in the hunt for a couple more if he had played his whole career over here. I mean we all know he hit .372 a couple years ago, so who's to say that he couldn't have hit.385 over here as well, like he did in Japan? Now I know that he didn't actually hit .385 over here, but do you know how many players in the MLB (post 1900), have hit .380+ and are NOT in the HOF? Three - Joe Jackson (we all know about him), Babe Herman, and Lefty Odoul.

He has been able to perform amazingly well at both levels, so I do feel that if he doesn't meet the 10 years (which he could still do), then some consideration should be given. In fact, I would personally vote him in right now for everything he has done.

I know we all know this, but he WAS the first Japanese position player, helped to open up the market over there. Has put up several great seasons already, including his '01 campaign, with the ROY and MVP, setting a couple records that year, and helping to lead his team to 116 wins!!! And his '04 record setting season, with the Hits Record. All in all, I say that he has done enough. I'm not saying that he's the greatet player in the game, but like Chris said, it's the Hall of FAME, and he sure is famous. He's done a lot for the game, and deserved to be recognized for it.

[Colorado Express]

He needs either a few more GREAT years or a lot more good years.

[dre1614]

6 seasons

6 time all-star
6 time gold glove winner
1 mvp award
1 rookie of the year award
1 Silver Slugger
2 time batting champion
3 time hit champion
1 time stolen base champion
6 time singles champion

career .332 batting average
1450 career hits in the MLB
254 career stolen bases
80% stolen base %



If he keeps up this pace this season he will have

7 seasons
7 gold gloves
7 time all-star
possible 4 time hit champion
possible 3 time batting champion

1500+ hits in the Majors.


Best defensive CF in the game today



Its a lock he makes the hall assuming he stays healthy.

[brett]

6 seasons

6 time all-star
6 time gold glove winner
1 mvp award
1 rookie of the year award
1 Silver Slugger
2 time batting champion
3 time hit champion
1 time stolen base champion
6 time singles champion

career .332 batting average
1450 career hits in the MLB
254 career stolen bases
80% stolen base %



If he keeps up this pace this season he will have

7 seasons
7 gold gloves
7 time all-star
possible 4 time hit champion
possible 3 time batting champion

1500+ hits in the Majors.


Best defensive CF in the game today



Its a lock he makes the hall assuming he stays healthy.


I think Ichiro will get 3000 hits, and he will go to the hall of fame, and I'd even vote for him because its the hall of FAME and he is a pioneer who proved that a transition could be made.

Personally, if he stays 10-12 years and has 2000+ hits he probably gets in and I would rate him about equal to Kirby Puckett (if he stays in centerfield) but that won't put him in the top 100 players of all time. He did not deserve an MVP and he should not ever have been an all star starter based on value.

[dre1614]

I think Ichiro will get 3000 hits, and he will go to the hall of fame, and I'd even vote for him because its the hall of FAME and he is a pioneer who proved that a transition could be made.

Personally, if he stays 10-12 years and has 2000+ hits he probably gets in and I would rate him about equal to Kirby Puckett (if he stays in centerfield) but that won't put him in the top 100 players of all time. He did not deserve an MVP and he should not ever have been an all star starter based on value.
Doesn't matter, he has a MVP award don't matter it was fair or not.

[Williamsburg2599]

I think Ichiro will get 3000 hits, and he will go to the hall of fame, and I'd even vote for him because its the hall of FAME and he is a pioneer who proved that a transition could be made.

Personally, if he stays 10-12 years and has 2000+ hits he probably gets in and I would rate him about equal to Kirby Puckett (if he stays in centerfield) but that won't put him in the top 100 players of all time. He did not deserve an MVP and he should not ever have been an all star starter based on value.

Who would you pick, in his place, for the AL ASG RF position from 2001-2006?

[Edgartohof]

6 seasons

6 time all-star
6 time gold glove winner
1 mvp award
1 rookie of the year award
1 Silver Slugger
2 time batting champion
3 time hit champion
1 time stolen base champion
6 time singles champion

career .332 batting average
1450 career hits in the MLB
254 career stolen bases
80% stolen base %



If he keeps up this pace this season he will have

7 seasons
7 gold gloves
7 time all-star
possible 4 time hit champion
possible 3 time batting champion

1500+ hits in the Majors.


Best defensive CF in the game today



Its a lock he makes the hall assuming he stays healthy.

Just to add a few things:

AL record for most consecutive successful Stolen Bases in single season (39), AND the AL record for most consecutive successful Stolen Bases alltogether (over multiple seasons (45)

Most hits by a Rookie (242)

Most hits in a League Division Series (12) - (also has best BA in a division series - .600)

The most 20+ game hit streaks by an active player (5 - and possibly soon to be 6)

By seasons end will have 7 consecutive seasons (to start his career), with 200+ hits - 2nd best all-time, behind Keeler (8)

His 6 consecutive OF GG's are only behind Griffey, Jones, and Bonds for active players (he is better than Bonds, and Griffey, and certainly rivals Jones)

And to think that most of the best defensive seasons are by players in their early 20's, yet here is Ichiro in his 30's, still plugging away, while Griffey, and Jones and the like are fading...fast I might add. Only Granderson and Sizemore can really compare to Ichiro, and they are ages 26 and 24 respectively (compared to age 33 for Ichiro). And if he can still stand toe to toe with them now, imagine what he was doing when he was REALLY good, not after he has lost a step or two.

[mtortolero]

Is not Ichiro a bit overated? I mean, someone who needs 230 hits to get .378 of obp and only .439 slugging having a batting average of .332, looks as a huge effort for a not very amazing output. But still is very funny to see,

[Seattle1]

Whaaa? The Mariners were bad in 2004. They sucked. But to call them the worst team of all-time? They weren't even the worst team in the AL that year. The Royals lost 104 games. Since 2001, 12 teams have lost 100 games, something the 2004 Mariners did not do. How is this even one of the worst 10 teams of this decade?


Very well said, tearforamariner.

:clapping

[538280]

I think Ichiro is overrated. He is a good hit-getter, but his OBP is more good than great and he has very little power. In the context of this era he is far from a great hitter, especially for a guy who's mostly a corner OF. He would be better from CF but even from there he's only borderline HOF type hitting. His defense and baserunning are big bonuses which make him a big asset to any team, but still not really great. I'd put him in the HOF for the same reasons as Brett, being a pioneer and one of the most popular players in the game, being exciting, it is the Hall of FAME, but on a strict value basis he'd need to play a while longer to reach my HOF.

[Williamsburg2599]

I think Ichiro is overrated. He is a good hit-getter, but his OBP is more good than great and he has very little power. In the context of this era he is far from a great hitter, especially for a guy who's mostly a corner OF. He would be better from CF but even from there he's only borderline HOF type hitting. His defense and baserunning are big bonuses which make him a big asset to any team, but still not really great. I'd put him in the HOF for the same reasons as Brett, being a pioneer and one of the most popular players in the game, being exciting, it is the Hall of FAME, but on a strict value basis he'd need to play a while longer to reach my HOF.

BTW, he has shifted to CF this year.

[538280]

BTW, he has shifted to CF this year.

I am well aware of that, but still for his career to this point he is manly a RFer. I was speaking as an evaluation of his career. Still, though, as I said, he's not really all that great a hitter on a historical level even from the standards of a CF.

[dre1614]

I am well aware of that, but still for his career to this point he is manly a RFer. I was speaking as an evaluation of his career. Still, though, as I said, he's not really all that great a hitter on a historical level even from the standards of a CF.

I think this is the 50th time you have said the same thing. Just an observation

[dre1614]

Is not Ichiro a bit overated? I mean, someone who needs 230 hits to get .378 of obp and only .439 slugging having a batting average of .332, looks as a huge effort for a not very amazing output. But still is very funny to see,

You lost me at "Is"

[mtortolero]

You lost me at "Is"
Sorry, i try my best in english.
When I say he is overrated my point is why Ichiro and not Luis Gonzalez, for example, who after 18 seasons is a 121 OPS+ hitter, with the same obp and still playing trying to reach 600 2XB and 400 Hrs.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I guess this means that the only way that Ichiro gets into the Hall of Fame is if he gets 3,000 hits.

[Yankwood]

You lost me at "Is"Sounds right to me. Very well said. The politically correct thing to do would be to put him in so I guess that's the way it's gonna be.

[Seattle1]

The politically correct thing to do would be to put him in so I guess that's the way it's gonna be.

Why would it be considered "politically correct" to induct Ichiro Suzuki into the HoF? Because he is a Japanese person? Was it politically correct to induct Babe Ruth? Ozzie Smith? Cal Ripken? Etc.? If a player is a superstar and deserves to go in, why then he'll be inducted.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Sounds right to me. Very well said. The politically correct thing to do would be to put him in so I guess that's the way it's gonna be.

Who said that this had to do with politicial correctness? :confused: Ichiro's a singles hitter with a high, but very lean batting average (no meat of OBP or SLG), who also defends pretty well. There's no question that people will debate his merits when the time comes.

[dre1614]

Who said that this had to do with politicial correctness? :confused: Ichiro's a singles hitter with a high, but very lean batting average (no meat of OBP or SLG), who also defends pretty well. There's no question that people will debate his merits when the time comes.

Don't want to sound rude, but defends pretty well?

Most consider him one of the best defensive rf of all time right beside Clemente. and now that he has moved to cf, he has not lost a beat. Is rated the best defensive cf in the game today by some.

I think that's better than "pretty good". JMHO obviously

[Yankwood]

In this day and age, the Hall of Fame really doesn't need anymore "banjo hitters". The Ty Cobb's and such, lack of power was understandable, but most of this guy's hits stop rolling before they get to the outfielders.

[Seattle1]

...most of this guy's hits stop rolling before they get to the outfielders.

Not true, but even if it was so what? A hit is a hit is a hit. A single is a single, a double is a double, a triple is a triple, and a homerun is a homerun. You don't get more points if the ball goes further.

[Yankwood]

Not true, but even if it was so what? A hit is a hit is a hit. A single is a single, a double is a double, a triple is a triple, and a homerun is a homerun. You don't get more points if the ball goes further.Not true. If it goes over the fence you get one plus everyone who's on base.

[tearforamariner]

Not true. If it goes over the fence you get one plus everyone who's on base.

What Seattle1 is saying is that in your previous post, you seem to be saying that it's okay to be a singles hitter like Cobb if you hit singles to the outfield but it's less okay to be a singles hitter like Ichiro, hitting ball to the infield and beating out the throw. Both are scored the same way, what's the difference? And no, I am not saying Ichiro is Ty Cobb. Ty Cobb is far better and I only bring him up because you did.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Don't want to sound rude, but defends pretty well?

Most consider him one of the best defensive rf of all time right beside Clemente. and now that he has moved to cf, he has not lost a beat. Is rated the best defensive cf in the game today by some.

I think that's better than "pretty good". JMHO obviously

Well, you know what I mean.

[dre1614]

Well, you know what I mean.

i do, was just making sure, because there are a few that don't think he is that great an outfielder. Don't know why they think that.

[538280]

I think Yankwood's point (if I'm looking at it correctly) is a valid one. According to FanGraphs, 18.6% of Ichiro's hits have been infield hits. Infield hits go down as singles but really have more of the value of walks. They almost never advance runners more than one base. That may be a legit thing to consider if you're using Linear Weight values or such to evaluate Ichiro.

[Westlake]

I think Yankwood's point (if I'm looking at it correctly) is a valid one. According to FanGraphs, 18.6% of Ichiro's hits have been infield hits. Infield hits go down as singles but really have more of the value of walks. They almost never advance runners more than one base. That may be a legit thing to consider if you're using Linear Weight values or such to evaluate Ichiro.

Well, if 18% of his hits are infield hits, then lets take the amount of times there are runners on, which is smaller than everyone else on the team (since he's a lead off hitter), and then lets take the times that he fails to move the runner from 1st to 3rd out of THAT group, because his hit was of the infield variety, and that small little percentage of the hits he gets makes him NOT a HOFer.

[Seattle1]

What Seattle1 is saying is that in your previous post, you seem to be saying that it's okay to be a singles hitter like Cobb if you hit singles to the outfield but it's less okay to be a singles hitter like Ichiro, hitting ball to the infield and beating out the throw. Both are scored the same way, what's the difference?

Thank you! :clapping

By the way, anyone else see Ichiro manufacture a run out of thin air all by himself last night against the Pirates? Infield single, stole second, stole third, scored on a ground out. Nobody else in the game creates that kind of havoc. He drives opposing pitchers absolutely batty. That's what you call a real baseball player.

:dance

[SamtheBravesFan]

i do, was just making sure, because there are a few that don't think he is that great an outfielder. Don't know why they think that.

Peak-Clemente at his best and pretty dang good at his "worst".

[dl4060]

I think this is the 50th time you have said the same thing. Just an observation

Perhaps the reason he says it so much is that this issue comes up quite often. When issues like how great Ichiro really is or whether or not Derek Jeter is overrated come up, posters will usually bring up points they have brought up before. The problem that I have with Ichiro is the same as most of his other detractors, lack of power, no walks. I still think he is an excellent player, but I do not look at him as great. He needs to hit at least .330 to be a star level player, below that and he is merely very good. Even when he hit .372, his OPS+ was only 135. I think his 2001 MVP was probably the worst selection of my lifetime, worse than Andre Dawson in 1987. Arod was the only player other than Giambi who had an argument, I would have taken Jason in a heartbeat, ignoring of course, the elephant in the room.

[538280]

Well, if 18% of his hits are infield hits, then lets take the amount of times there are runners on, which is smaller than everyone else on the team (since he's a lead off hitter), and then lets take the times that he fails to move the runner from 1st to 3rd out of THAT group, because his hit was of the infield variety, and that small little percentage of the hits he gets makes him NOT a HOFer.

I wasn't suggesting that that makes him not a HOFer. It was just a general point that a good amount of his hits don't advance runners as effectively as most singles because they're infield hits. Infield hits are of about the same value overall as walks, not singles. You're correct that he's a leadoff hitter and that makes there be less of an impact but still overall an infield single is of less value than a regular single, and a significant amount of his hits (18.6%) are infield hits.

[Yankwood]

Thank you! :clapping

By the way, anyone else see Ichiro manufacture a run out of thin air all by himself last night against the Pirates? Infield single, stole second, stole third, scored on a ground out. Nobody else in the game creates that kind of havoc. He drives opposing pitchers absolutely batty. That's what you call a real baseball player.

:danceYou made my point. He had to do all that and then hope somebody else comes through behind him to score 1 run. A better player takes 1 swing and then trots around the bases to score AT LEAST 1 run.

[Seattle1]

You made my point. He had to do all that and then hope somebody else comes through behind him to score 1 run. A better player takes 1 swing and then trots around the bases to score AT LEAST 1 run.


You're missing the point because Ichiro manufactures & creates runs that otherwise simply wouldn't exist. That's what the sport of baseball is all about. Home runs are nice, but they're a very small part of the overall game. They just happen to be attention-grabbers when they do occur.

[tearforamariner]

You made my point. He had to do all that and then hope somebody else comes through behind him to score 1 run. A better player takes 1 swing and then trots around the bases to score AT LEAST 1 run.

So only players who hit a great number of home runs should be in the Hall of Fame? You've lost me.

[Lin_Kuei_Fighter]

I voted for few more good years. He's about 60% in. But I have a feeling that if he retired today, he'd be like Joe Gordon- A deserving candidate who gets hardly any love.

[Yankwood]

So only players who hit a great number of home runs should be in the Hall of Fame? You've lost me.No, he's just not as good as a player who plays the game in a more "manly" fashion. He's kind of plays like a chick.

[Padday]

No, he's just not as good as a player who plays the game in a more "manly" fashion. He's kind of plays like a chick.

Define how one "plays like a chick".

[Williamsburg2599]

No, he's just not as good as a player who plays the game in a more "manly" fashion. He's kind of plays like a chick.

:hp You've just degraded women and Ichiro in the same sentence. Manly? If your looking for Manly, Maucho, bullcrap, go Canton, Ohio. If your looking for great BASEBALL players, go to Cooperstown, NY. Was Pete Rose "manly"? Was Ty Cobb "manly"? Was Tony Gwynn "manly"? None of these guys put up huge HR numbers, yet there all in the HoF. Should they not be in because they didn't score high enough on the manly scale?:confused: :noidea

[Erik Bedard]

If the question was "Would you put Ichiro in the Hall?", I would vote no. However, the question was "Will Ichiro make the Hall", in which case I was forced to vote "Few More Good Years", because, as it is, he'll probably get in as soon as he retires (granted that he's played ten MLB seasons). However, I would not put him in, because I just don't think he's really all that great of a player. Nothing against the guy, I just wouldn't put him in my HoF.

BTW, Seattle1, all singles are not created equal. There are singles that drive the runner in from second, and there are singles that don't even advance the runner at second. I've watched him play for most of my life, and he's never struck me as someone who was a particularly great player. Talented? Sure. But you can't make the Hall based on talent. Exciting? Unquestionably. But plenty of players were exciting that have no place in the Hall. Great? Not so much.

[Seattle1]

:hp You've just degraded women and Ichiro in the same sentence. Manly? If your looking for Manly, Maucho, bullcrap, go Canton, Ohio. If your looking for great BASEBALL players, go to Cooperstown, NY. Was Pete Rose "manly"? Was Ty Cobb "manly"? Was Tony Gwynn "manly"? None of these guys put up huge HR numbers, yet there all in the HoF. Should they not be in because they didn't score high enough on the manly scale?:confused: :noidea

Not to mention Rod Carew. (Probably don't really need to point it out but as we all know Rose isn't in the HoF because of gambling, but he would be otherwise.)

[Williamsburg2599]

Not to mention Rod Carew. (Probably don't really need to point it out but as we all know Rose isn't in the HoF because of gambling, but he would be otherwise.)

True, but he obviously was a HoF caliber player.

[Seattle1]

No, he's just not as good as a player who plays the game in a more "manly" fashion. He's kind of plays like a chick.

With a statement like that, I think you just lost all credibility in this debate Yankwood.

By the way, Ichiro is going to go right on racking up 200-hit, 100-run seasons while stealing dozens, if not hundreds, of bases for the rest of his career. Then, five years after he retires he'll waltz into the HoF on the first ballot with 95+% of the vote. How do ya like them apples?

:D

[Seattle1]

Great? Not so much.

Well, I don't know what more you could ask a guy to do.

[Erik Bedard]

Hmmm... draw a few more walks? He certainly has the ability to do that. Hit for more power? He's shown the ability to do that. Rely on his bat more than his legs? He can do that as well. However, he doesn't do any of them, which is part of the reason why I'm not that high on Ichiro for the HoF.

[Yankwood]

With a statement like that, I think you just lost all credibility in this debate Yankwood.

By the way, Ichiro is going to go right on racking up 200-hit, 100-run seasons while stealing dozens, if not hundreds, of bases for the rest of his career. Then, five years after he retires he'll waltz into the HoF on the first ballot with 95+% of the vote. How do ya like them apples?

:DThat's OK. I went there last year and they alrady have a Woman's League exhibit already set up for her.

[Padday]

That's OK. I went there last year and they alrady have a Woman's League exhibit already set up for her.

Just keep digging that hole of yours.

[tearforamariner]

I'm not going to get into this sexist line of discussion, but I would like to point this out: The top 10 home run hitters have a combined 12 World Series Rings (7 of which come from Babe Ruth, 5 from the other 9 guys) . Five of the top 10 HR guys have rings. The top 10 singles hitters also have 12 rings with none of those players having more than 4 (Collins). 6 of the top 10 singles guys have rings. If the game is about winning, then the singles hitters seem to do it as well or better than the power guys.

[Williamsburg2599]

That's OK. I went there last year and they alrady have a Woman's League exhibit already set up for her.

How many Major League homers you got? I'm predicting 66 less than Ichiro.(Who BTW, is projected for 12 this year, just like Jeter)

[Williamsburg2599]

And I guess he "throws like a girl" too, right?:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/245412/ichiro_laser_beem/

[Yankwood]

How many Major League homers you got? I'm predicting 66 less than Ichiro.(Who BTW, is projected for 12 this year, just like Jeter)That's all he has? 66? Wow, there's pitchers that have almost ta many.

[Williamsburg2599]

That's all he has? 66? Wow, there's pitchers that have almost ta many.

In 7 seasons? So, were Cobb and Rose and Carew and Gwynn "chicks" too?

[tearforamariner]

That's all he has? 66? Wow, there's pitchers that have almost ta many.

Name 'em. For the record, Wes Ferrell has the most HR as a pitcher with 37, not what I call almost 66.

[Seattle1]

So get this, last night Pirates pitcher Van Benschoten was cruising along with a relatively low pitch count and a shut-out, going pretty much toe-to-toe with Felix Hernandez (who was also pitching a shut-out). Until he came up against Ichiro in the fifth inning that is.

With Sexson on second base, Ichiro had an 11-pitch at-bat, fouling off pitch after pitch, even a couple that were outside and would have given him a walk. Ichiro was obviously just playing with the guy at will, tormenting him until he got the pitch he wanted which he promptly knocked for a base hit, bringing in Sexson and breaking up the shut-out.

Well, that was pretty much the end of Van Benschoten's night. Ichiro chased him. Mariners went on to win. That's the kind of intangible thing Ichiro does to opposing pitchers. How do you quantify "harried pitchers"? There's no stat for that, lol. That's how you play the sport of baseball, you don't just swing for the fences all the time.

Ichiro chases Van Benschoten (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070621&content_id=2041846&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=pit)
Van Benschoten gave up three in five innings of work on Thursday. He matched Hernandez nearly pitch for pitch through the first four innings, but couldn't make it out of the fifth unscathed.

The key hit came with two on and one out in the fifth when the ever-pesky Ichiro Suzuki came to the plate and put on a clinic on how to stay alive with two strikes. He fouled off seven pitches in a row before dropping an RBI single in front of Pirates left fielder Jason Bay to give the Mariners their first run.

Looking back at that at-bat, all Van Benschoten could do was shake his head.

"I should have just thrown the ball right down the middle and gotten [the at-bat] over," Van Benschoten said jokingly. "Maybe I'll get that on film and play it out as a movie. That was pretty impressive. That's all I've got to say about that. I threw everything, a slider, four-seamer, two-seamer. I guess it's one of those, best man won."


:clapping

[Seattle1]

Hmmm... draw a few more walks? He certainly has the ability to do that. Hit for more power? He's shown the ability to do that. Rely on his bat more than his legs? He can do that as well. However, he doesn't do any of them, which is part of the reason why I'm not that high on Ichiro for the HoF.

Picky, picky, picky...:rolleyes:


;)

[Seattle1]

I threw everything, a slider, four-seamer, two-seamer. I guess it's one of those, best man won.


:nod:

You reading Yankwood?

:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[csh19792001]

Notes: Ichiro on hit-record pace

06/22/2007

SEATTLE -- What might be lost amid the anticipation over the return of former Mariners center fielder Ken Griffey Jr. is the fact that the Mariners' current center fielder potentially is having a season unlike any other.

Ichiro Suzuki, who set the single-season hit record with 262 in 2004, is actually well ahead of that pace. Through 69 games entering Friday's game against Cincinnati, Ichiro had 105 hits. He had just 97 hits through 69 games in 2004 when he broke George Sisler's 84-year-old record for hits in a season.

He's second in the American League in hitting at .358, having raised his batting average 98 points since May 6. He has hit .415 in June with a 16-game hitting streak. This followed a career-high 25-game hit streak through most of May. He had hit safely in 54 of his last 63 games.

Who gets the credit for Ichiro's exceptional numbers after a slow start? Not hitting coach Jeff Pentland.

"I don't say much to him anyway," Pentland said. "We've probably had two conversations in my two years here. You tend to watch over all the hitters like a mother hen, but obviously, when you have to do very little -- in Ichiro's case, nothing -- it makes it a lot easier."

What makes this season perhaps his best ever, in America or Japan, is his production. He is on a pace for a career-high 87 RBIs. His best season with the Mariners was 2001 when he had 69 RBIs. He had just 49 last season. He has a .422 average with runners in scoring position, a .455 average with runners in scoring position and two outs, and is batting .667 with the bases loaded.

"More than anything else, he's really trying to help the ballclub any way he can," Pentland said. "He's been very selective -- for him. I say that because he can hit anything you throw up there. It's amazing what pitches he can get to where other people can't.

"He's the full package. He's an MVP-type player."

He also is contributing on the basepaths. Ichiro is tied for second in steals with 22, with eight in June.

"He's been good ever since he's been in this league," Pentland said. "If there's a better player in the league, I want to know who it is."

Side Note: In his career, Ichiro is a .471 hitter with a .700 slugging percentage with the bases loaded.

[Seattle1]

My only complaint about Ichiro is his choice of jersey number. 51 doesn't suit him, imo. It's too large, too bulky of a number to suit a speed demon, a great player, like Ichiro. He should probably be wearing a single-digit number. Number 1 would suit him very well on several different levels.

:baseball:

[Edgartohof]

My only complaint about Ichiro is his choice of jersey number. 51 doesn't suit him, imo. It's too large, too bulky of a number to suit a speed demon, a great player, like Ichiro. He should probably be wearing a single-digit number. Number 1 would suit him very well on several different levels.

:baseball:

Actually, I have to disagree.

#51 is great for him. As the best defensive outfielder in the game right now, it works, as it's like the balls are being hit to "Area 51", where flyballs go to die!

[Seattle1]

As the best defensive outfielder in the game right now, it works, as it's like the balls are being hit to "Area 51", where flyballs go to die!

Lol, I see what you mean, that's a good one! ;) :clapping

But, I guess we might have to agree to disagree on this minor item. I just feel like a single-digit uni number would fit Ichiro so well. It's a moot point anyway I'm sure. Ichiro probably won't change numbers at this point in his career.

[Seattle1]

Well, Ichiro has now added a couple more "feathers" to his Hall of Fame credentials "hat." Last night he hit the only inside-the-park home run in All-Star Game history! Think of all the speedy superstars who have played in that game over the years but did not hit an inside-the-parker. He also was voted All-Star Game MVP. He certainly got even a little more famous last night with the whole country watching! He is such a cool baseball player.

:clapping

[Brad Harris]

Well, Ichiro has now added a couple more "feathers" to his Hall of Fame credentials "hat." Last night he hit the only inside-the-park home run in All-Star Game history! Think of all the speedy superstars who have played in that game over the years but did not hit an inside-the-parker. He also was voted All-Star Game MVP. He certainly got even a little more famous last night with the whole country watching! He is such a cool baseball player.

:clapping

...all in all, it's just another
brick in the wall...

[iPod]

Well, Ichiro has now added a couple more "feathers" to his Hall of Fame credentials "hat." Last night he hit the only inside-the-park home run in All-Star Game history! Think of all the speedy superstars who have played in that game over the years but did not hit an inside-the-parker. He also was voted All-Star Game MVP. He certainly got even a little more famous last night with the whole country watching! He is such a cool baseball player.

:clapping

All star MVP might help a little, but don't you think having the first inside the park HR is just useless trivia? Who holds the record for inside the park home runs? I don't know. It doesn't matter.

[brewcrew82]

Well, Ichiro has now added a couple more "feathers" to his Hall of Fame credentials "hat." Last night he hit the only inside-the-park home run in All-Star Game history! Think of all the speedy superstars who have played in that game over the years but did not hit an inside-the-parker. He also was voted All-Star Game MVP. He certainly got even a little more famous last night with the whole country watching! He is such a cool baseball player.

:clapping

If/when he gets in the HoF I don't think his performance in this years All-Star game will be much of a factor. After all, Fred Lynn's All-Star grand slam in '83 didn't help him in the balloting for the hall.

[iPod]

So get this, last night Pirates pitcher Van Benschoten was cruising along with a relatively low pitch count and a shut-out, going pretty much toe-to-toe with Felix Hernandez (who was also pitching a shut-out). Until he came up against Ichiro in the fifth inning that is.

With Sexson on second base, Ichiro had an 11-pitch at-bat, fouling off pitch after pitch, even a couple that were outside and would have given him a walk. Ichiro was obviously just playing with the guy at will, tormenting him until he got the pitch he wanted which he promptly knocked for a base hit, bringing in Sexson and breaking up the shut-out.

Well, that was pretty much the end of Van Benschoten's night. Ichiro chased him. Mariners went on to win. That's the kind of intangible thing Ichiro does to opposing pitchers. How do you quantify "harried pitchers"? There's no stat for that, lol. That's how you play the sport of baseball, you don't just swing for the fences all the time.

Ichiro chases Van Benschoten (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070621&content_id=2041846&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=pit)
Van Benschoten gave up three in five innings of work on Thursday. He matched Hernandez nearly pitch for pitch through the first four innings, but couldn't make it out of the fifth unscathed.

The key hit came with two on and one out in the fifth when the ever-pesky Ichiro Suzuki came to the plate and put on a clinic on how to stay alive with two strikes. He fouled off seven pitches in a row before dropping an RBI single in front of Pirates left fielder Jason Bay to give the Mariners their first run.

Looking back at that at-bat, all Van Benschoten could do was shake his head.

"I should have just thrown the ball right down the middle and gotten [the at-bat] over," Van Benschoten said jokingly. "Maybe I'll get that on film and play it out as a movie. That was pretty impressive. That's all I've got to say about that. I threw everything, a slider, four-seamer, two-seamer. I guess it's one of those, best man won."


:clapping

Holy ****, Ichiro got a single off of John Van Benschoten?! Are you kidding me?!

On a side note to everyone, could we all stop referring to Ty Cobb as a singles hitter? It's like a rusty nail on a chalkboard to me. Here's a guy who is 4th all-time in doubles (led league 3 times), 2nd all-time in triples (led league 4 times), 10th all-time in extra base hits (led league 3 times), was in the top ten in his league in home runs 11 times, leading the league once, and won 8 slugging titles, and we're calling him a singles hitter?

[Erik Bedard]

All star MVP might help a little, but don't you think having the first inside the park HR is just useless trivia? Who holds the record for inside the park home runs? I don't know. It doesn't matter.

Sam Crawford. And given that he holds the record for triples as well, I think it does matter.

Anyway, here's some of Ichiro's company as an All-Star MVP.

Michael Young
Alfonso Soriano
Garret Anderson
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Jeff Conine
Julio Franco
Bo Jackson
Terry Steinbach
La Marr Hoyt
Fred Lynn
Dave Concepcion
Ken Griffey
Dave Parker
Steve Garvey
George Foster
Bill Madlock
Jon Matlack
Bobby Bonds
Johnny Callison
Maury Wills
Leon Wagner

Being the MVP of one game didn't help any of these guys' cases. Why should it help Ichiro?

[Seattle1]

All star MVP might help a little, but don't you think having the first inside the park HR is just useless trivia? Who holds the record for inside the park home runs? I don't know. It doesn't matter.

People are going to remember Ichiro's MVP performance on Tuesday, including his inside-the-park home run which has never been done before in the history of the game. He just made himself that much more famous. Remember, it is called the Hall of Fame. Also, I didn't say the ASG made him a lock for the Hall of Fame, just that it's another feather in his cap, of which he already has many, and which he'll add many more in the years to come.

[Seattle1]

Being the MVP of one game didn't help any of these guys' cases. Why should it help Ichiro?

Oh yeah, it's such a liability to a player's Hall of Fame credentials to earn the All-Star MVP. What was Ichiro thinking? :rolleyes:

;)

[Captain Cold Nose]

Oh yeah, it's such a liability to a player's Hall of Fame credentials to earn the All-Star MVP. What was Ichiro thinking? :rolleyes:

;)

It won't help his case. It might go on his plaque, though.

[Erik Bedard]

I'm going to try and run Ichiro through the Keltner List. It's not a great tool for active players, but I think it works serviceably. I will treat his case as though he retired today, rather than try and project what he'll do in the future.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

He was probably mistakenly regarded as the best player in baseball, but he never was. 2004 is the only year that he really has a case, but Barry Bonds was far, far, far, far, far, far, far better that year. Ichiro was only sixth among AL players in WS that year. He only finished in the top ten in OPS+ once, in 2004, when he finished tenth.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

From 2004-06, he led Seattle in Win Shares only once, in 2004. That was also the only year he led his team in OPS.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

No to both. His best finish among AL OFs was fourth, and eleventh among major leaguers, in 2004.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

The Mariners won the AL West and 116 games in 2001, Ichiro's RoY and MVP (albeit undeservingly) season.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

That has yet to be determined.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Absolutely not.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

By similarity scores: Mike Donlin, Dale Mitchell, Bake McBride, Bug Holliday, Rip Radcliff, Barney McCosky, Freddy Leach, Benny Kauff, Ron LeFlore, Billy Southworth. Only Donlin and Southworth have any kind of case, and Southworth's rests largely on his managing career.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Yes, but both the ink scores and the HoF Standards and Monitor rely heavily on BA, which has proven to be not all that good at showing greatness.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

He has a reputation as a great defensive outfielder, but playing RF, it really doesn't make all that much difference, as RF is one of the least challenging defensive positions in the game.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

Absolutely not.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

He has not had an MVP-type season up to this point in his career. However, he did win the MVP award in 2001.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

He has made the AL All-Star team in each of his seven MLB seasons.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

No. In 2004, when he was the best player on his team by WS, Seattle went 63-99. The only time his team made the playoffs during his MLB tenure was in 2001, when Edgar Martinez and Bret Boone put up outstanding years.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He was one of the first players to come over from Japan and perform well, and that may have unnecessarily inflated his HoF case, though it is worth mentioning.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Yes.

[Chisox]

I don't really think Ichiro has any case for the best player in 2004. For all those hits, he still was 1 shy of the 50 in times on base with 315, while Bonds had 376, 20 more than the NL record he set 2 years prior, and only 3 shy of Ruth's record of 379. That and he did it with an OBP 200 points higher and a slugging 350 points higher. That and he didn't even have a top 5 OPS+ in his own league that year, 10 points off the pace in 10th, and only fourth in Runs created. If comparing to the NL, he would have been 14 points away from 10th in OPS+, and 8th in Runs Created. Not much claim, in my opinion.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Only way he gets in with any kind of merit is probably 3,000 hits and some kind of stolen base mark. I think he's talented enough batting-wise that he can easily get 3,000 hits, but then the debate would start on whether or not he's the "worst" player to ever have 3,000 hits.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm going to try and run Ichiro through the Keltner List. It's not a great tool for active players, but I think it works serviceably. I will treat his case as though he retired today, rather than try and project what he'll do in the future.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

He was probably mistakenly regarded as the best player in baseball, but he never was. 2004 is the only year that he really has a case, but Barry Bonds was far, far, far, far, far, far, far better that year. Ichiro was only sixth among AL players in WS that year. He only finished in the top ten in OPS+ once, in 2004, when he finished tenth.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

From 2004-06, he led Seattle in Win Shares only once, in 2004. That was also the only year he led his team in OPS.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

No to both. His best finish among AL OFs was fourth, and eleventh among major leaguers, in 2004.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

The Mariners won the AL West and 116 games in 2001, Ichiro's RoY and MVP (albeit undeservingly) season.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

That has yet to be determined.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

Absolutely not.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

By similarity scores: Mike Donlin, Dale Mitchell, Bake McBride, Bug Holliday, Rip Radcliff, Barney McCosky, Freddy Leach, Benny Kauff, Ron LeFlore, Billy Southworth. Only Donlin and Southworth have any kind of case, and Southworth's rests largely on his managing career.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Yes, but both the ink scores and the HoF Standards and Monitor rely heavily on BA, which has proven to be not all that good at showing greatness.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

He has a reputation as a great defensive outfielder, but playing RF, it really doesn't make all that much difference, as RF is one of the least challenging defensive positions in the game.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

Absolutely not.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

He has not had an MVP-type season up to this point in his career. However, he did win the MVP award in 2001.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

He has made the AL All-Star team in each of his seven MLB seasons.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

No. In 2004, when he was the best player on his team by WS, Seattle went 63-99. The only time his team made the playoffs during his MLB tenure was in 2001, when Edgar Martinez and Bret Boone put up outstanding years.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

He was one of the first players to come over from Japan and perform well, and that may have unnecessarily inflated his HoF case, though it is worth mentioning.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Yes.

Your Keltner lists comes across as very biased against Ichiro. You are supposed to answer the questions, not give commentary or try to explain away Ichiro's strengths. Whether Ichiro deserved the 2001 MVP award is completely irrelavent. Ichiro did win the 2001 MVP award. The HoF voters will not be thinking "Yes, Ichiro won the 2001 MVP award but he didn't deserve it!" And you are underestimating his great defense in right field.

Historically, singles hitters have done well in HoF voting. HoF voters love high BAs, 200 hit seasons, and Gold Gloves. Ichiro excels in these things. Pete Rose had 10 200 hit seasons and Ichiro may break that record. Also, Ichiro's Similarity Score list is meaningless. Ichiro didn't reach the majors until he was 27 years old. Of his 10 most similar players only Ron LeFlore was older than 24. The other nine were from 19-24 years old when they debuted in the majors.

[SamtheBravesFan]

So in that sense, Ichiro can't really have a legitamate Similarity Score comparison because he started so "late" in Major League Baseball.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

It won't help his case. It might go on his plaque, though.

You nailed it. It WILL go on his plaque.

Ichiro is a no-doubt HoFer, first ballot, even if he doesn't accumulate 10 seasons in the Majors, and it is highly likely that he will play 10 years here, and more.

The man has 1500 hits in under 7 seasons, bangs out 200+ hits every season that he plays here and is a Gold Glove outfielder, every season that he plays here.

You don't even have to count his seasons in Japan to see that what he has done here is unprecedented.

[jalbright]

Erik,

The decision to do the list as though he retired today is defensible, but it skews the discussion against him. There are several other points at which I would suggest your analysis is biased unfairly against him:

1) for question one, you ignore/miss Ichiro's 36 win share rookie season. It may not have been the best that year, but 36 win shares will win an MVP a lot of the time.

2) for question two, why limit it to 2004-2006, instead of his major league career? I'm sure he was best on Seattle in 2001, at least, if not some of the other seasons.

3) Fourth among all OF is darned near starting quality--and might he have been the best choice for RF/CF on one or more occasions? I suspect he can claim that distinction.

4) In question 8, you can't even resist taking a shot at Ichiro when you concede he has stats which traditionally have been HOF worthy. Enough said.

5) In question 9, you've ignored his late career move to CF, which strongly suggests he had that kind of defensive ability for quite some time. Also, here you have refused to even recognize his play in Japan. He was a major league caliber player for some time before 2001, but was contractually obligated to stay with his Japanese team. I submit those facts are at least relevant to discussing this question.

6) Again, 2001, while it may or may not have deserved the MVP that year definitely an MVP caliber year at 36 win shares.

7) He has never had a season of less than 22 win shares in the majors, and 20 is all-star quality play. It seems that is relevant to the discussion as well.

8) You deliberately underplay Ichiro's time in Japan in question 14, including the fact he won seven batting titles there. Also, why does your analysis ignore the single season hit record and never mention his major league performance in batting average? People may or may not give undue importance to those things, but it undermines the credibility of your analysis to ignore them.

Jim Albright

[2Chance]

originally posted by Erik Bedard
1. ...Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

He was probably mistakenly regarded as the best player in baseball....
This much sounds like a yes, but the rest of that answer sounded like a no. :noidea

[SamtheBravesFan]

This much sounds like a yes, but the rest of that answer sounded like a no. :noidea

He thinks that some people say that Ichiro is the best player in baseball at some point in his career.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

So in that sense, Ichiro can't really have a legitamate Similarity Score comparison because he started so "late" in Major League Baseball.

Sure he can, it just takes a lil work.

Forget his starting age (27), and just look at his stats in his first six seasons in the big leagues, then see who is most comparable in their first six seasons:

Ichiro: 6 Yrs / 957 G / 4444 PA / 671 R / 1354 H / 235 SB / .331 BA / .375 OBA.

Who is comparable in their first six seasons? Really, no one over the course of six seasons. No one comes close to that consistency, so you have to pick the very best seasons of some other hitters.

Ichiro's average season is almost as great as Willie McGee's MVP campaign in '85, just about. And Ichiro does that every single year.

Ichiro is as great a hitter, every year, as Willie Wilson was in his spectacular 1980 campaign. Wilson never really came close to that again.

Lloyd Waner was spectacular in his first four full seasons (he missed most of 1930 due to appendicitis), but he had only a few other blasts of glory after that and never again equalled his terrific start. Waner is very comparable to Ichiro, if for only four seasons.

Admittedly, Ichiro has drawbacks as a hitter. He doesn't draw a lot of walks and has only doubles power to go with his good speed. He was born to play 100 years ago. But he is so consistently great at what he does it is unprecedented. That is a HoFer.

[Erik Bedard]

Erik,

The decision to do the list as though he retired today is defensible, but it skews the discussion against him.

I understand, but those who voted for the first option imply that he would make the HoF if he retired today, which I think is preposterous.

There are several other points at which I would suggest your analysis is biased unfairly against him:

1) for question one, you ignore/miss Ichiro's 36 win share rookie season. It may not have been the best that year, but 36 win shares will win an MVP a lot of the time.

I don't have access to either WS prior to 2004, since I don't have James' book. I use the THT version instead, which only goes from 2004-present. I'm not including 2007 since it isn't over yet.

2) for question two, why limit it to 2004-2006, instead of his major league career? I'm sure he was best on Seattle in 2001, at least, if not some of the other seasons.

See above.

3) Fourth among all OF is darned near starting quality--and might he have been the best choice for RF/CF on one or more occasions? I suspect he can claim that distinction.

According to THT, among AL players at the same position, he was third among AL RFs in 2004, behind Guerrero and Sheffield. Same in 2005. In 2006, he was third among RF and CF. That's all the years that I have WS data for.

4) In question 8, you can't even resist taking a shot at Ichiro when you concede he has stats which traditionally have been HOF worthy. Enough said.

I'll concede that.

5) In question 9, you've ignored his late career move to CF, which strongly suggests he had that kind of defensive ability for quite some time. Also, here you have refused to even recognize his play in Japan. He was a major league caliber player for some time before 2001, but was contractually obligated to stay with his Japanese team. I submit those facts are at least relevant to discussing this question.

It's not exactly a late-career move. He's only 32. And he's not exactly setting the world on fire so far in CF, ranking 16th among MLB CFs in DWS in 2007.

6) Again, 2001, while it may or may not have deserved the MVP that year definitely an MVP caliber year at 36 win shares.

Again, I don't have the data for 2001, so I'm just going off of OPS+ totals, where Ichiro failed to crack the top ten.

7) He has never had a season of less than 22 win shares in the majors, and 20 is all-star quality play. It seems that is relevant to the discussion as well.

I've said that he made the ASG in each of his seven seasons already. Again, I don't have WS data pre-2004, which makes it awfully hard to determine how many WS he got in 2001, 2002, and 2003.

8) You deliberately underplay Ichiro's time in Japan in question 14, including the fact he won seven batting titles there. Also, why does your analysis ignore the single season hit record and never mention his major league performance in batting average? People may or may not give undue importance to those things, but it undermines the credibility of your analysis to ignore them.

OK, I just found a page with NPB stats. I guess I should have clicked on the BBF link when I searched for it on Google. Now that I've found them, I'm not sure how much credence to give them, especially given that Kaz Matsui finished in the top ten every year from 1997-2002.

Jim Albright

Your Keltner lists comes across as very biased against Ichiro. You are supposed to answer the questions, not give commentary or try to explain away Ichiro's strengths. Whether Ichiro deserved the 2001 MVP award is completely irrelavent. Ichiro did win the 2001 MVP award. The HoF voters will not be thinking "Yes, Ichiro won the 2001 MVP award but he didn't deserve it!" And you are underestimating his great defense in right field.

Historically, singles hitters have done well in HoF voting. HoF voters love high BAs, 200 hit seasons, and Gold Gloves. Ichiro excels in these things. Pete Rose had 10 200 hit seasons and Ichiro may break that record. Also, Ichiro Similarity Score list is meaningless. Ichiro didn't reach the majors until he was 27 years old. Of his 10 most similar players only Ron LeFlore was older than 24. The other nine were from 19-24 years old when they debuted in the majors.

But isn't the point of the Keltner List not to see whether someone will be inducted, but rather if they are worthy or not?

As for his defense, for all the years I have data for, as I said, his best finish was fifth. He was probably better when he first came into the league, but from the data I've seen, his rep seems to be a little overblown.

Also, if Ichiro started late, that would make him peak start out with his peak seasons, ignoring the adjustment period, and thus make him better than his similarity scores?

Anyway, here are his ten most similar players thru 2004, including his NPB stats translated to MLB: Earle Combs, Bing Miller, Kiki Cuyler, Edd Roush, Minnie Minoso, Ken Griffey, Sr., Jack Tobin, Ben Chapman, Dixie Walker and Gee Walker. Still not definite HoF territory.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

But isn't the point of the Keltner List not to see whether someone will be inducted, but rather if they are worthy or not?

As for his defense, for all the years I have data for, as I said, his best finish was fifth. He was probably better when he first came into the league, but from the data I've seen, his rep seems to be a little overblown.

Also, if Ichiro started late, that would make him peak start out with his peak seasons, ignoring the adjustment period, and thus make him better than his similarity scores?

Anyway, here are his ten most similar players thru 2004, including his NPB stats translated to MLB: Earle Combs, Bing Miller, Kiki Cuyler, Edd Roush, Minnie Minoso, Ken Griffey, Sr., Jack Tobin, Ben Chapman, Dixie Walker and Gee Walker. Still not definite HoF territory.

Why would any players playing in a weaker league not need an adjustment period? Your whole argument is based on win shares. You asked if he worthy of HoF induction? That is a good question. Ichiro has other credentials that most of his top 10 don't have. With all due respect to Combs, Miller, Rouch, Tobin, none of these players are historically significant ballplayers the way Ichiro is. Ichiro was the first position player to make the jump form the NPB to the majors. He has excelled. And whether you refuse to accept it or not many considered him the MVP in 2001 regardless what Win Shares says. He was regarded as one of the best players in 2001. The magnitude of the impression he made on thew world of baseball was incredible. So you really don't thing Ichiro is a HOF caliber player?

[Erik Bedard]

If he had been the first player to come to MLB from Japan, and put up the stats that he did, I would have no problem with him being a HoFer. However, he wasn't the first, he was the tenth. And he wasn't the first star, that being Hideo Nomo.

[Williamsburg2599]

If he had been the first player to come to MLB from Japan, and put up the stats that he did, I would have no problem with him being a HoFer. However, he wasn't the first, he was the tenth. And he wasn't the first star, that being Hideo Nomo.

He was the first position player....

[jalbright]

Erik

At the very least, you should have spelled out what data you had (and what you lacked) at the outset. I don't think you intentionally tried to mislead anyone here, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to think so under the circumstances. Of course, such admissions would undercut the credibility of your Keltner list, but you've now made those admissions anyway, with perhaps greater discredit to your argument. Don't hide the weaknesses when they're easily found is something I learned in trying cases--the weaknesses are coming out anyway, so volunteer them, to reduce their impact.

Jim Albright

[iPod]

People are going to remember Ichiro's MVP performance on Tuesday, including his inside-the-park home run which has never been done before in the history of the game. He just made himself that much more famous. Remember, it is called the Hall of Fame. Also, I didn't say the ASG made him a lock for the Hall of Fame, just that it's another feather in his cap, of which he already has many, and which he'll add many more in the years to come.

Really? You honestly think Ichiro hitting an inside-the-park home run in an all-star game is going to be "remembered"? Because it just strikes me as the worst, most absolutely useless grade of trivia. If you didn't know the answer and someone asked you "Who was the first person to hit an inside-the-park HR in the all-star game?" wouldn't it strike you as a stupid question, something like "Why the hell should I know that?"

I didn't write that you wrote the All-star MVP makes Ichiro a lock for the Hall of Fame. I wrote it "helps a little." Maybe. All-star MVP is an award I don't particularly care about.

[Seattle1]

Really? You honestly think Ichiro hitting an inside-the-park home run in an all-star game is going to be "remembered"?

Yes, everybody is going to remember it forever, sort of like when Neil Armstrong said "this is one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind." Here is a pretty good take on the profound significance of Ichiro's inside-the-parker Tuesday night. This guy really seems to understand the lasting importance of what Ichiro did:

Ichiro takes round-trip to All-Star history (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2932445)
By Jayson Stark

SAN FRANCISCO -- It was just one flight of the baseball. Just one swoosh of Ichiro Suzuki's magic bat. Just one laser beam streaking off toward the place where batted balls live on forever.

But when everything else fades from one more All-Star Game victory for the American League -- in what is beginning to feel like a never-ending series of American League victories -- this was the moment that all the Wite-Out in California won't be able to erase.

This was the tale of the amazing Ichiro, gliding around the bases on a journey into All-Star history.

This was the tale of a suddenly defenseless outfielder by the name of Junior Griffey, watching a baseball that was determined to pinball around the funkiest right field in America until the man who hit it had orbited the bases.

This was the tale of the first inside-the-park home run ever hit in an All-Star Game -- a round-tripper that would become the defining moment Tuesday night in a 5-4 game that was won by the team that always wins the All-Star Game.

Think of all the sprint champs who have played in this game. How could Rickey Henderson never have hit an inside-the-parker in an All-Star Game? Or Maury Wills? Or Lou Brock?

Think of all the ballparks this game has been played in. Think of all the baseballs that have clattered off the walls in the most misshaped outfields in history. In Fenway. And Wrigley. And the Polo Grounds.

How could it be possible that none of those parks had ever manufactured the one classically goofy bounce it takes to produce a moment like the one we witnessed Tuesday night at AT&T Park?

We have no idea how events can conspire like that to keep something like this from happening for more than 70 years -- and then, in one fluky collision of events, it happens right before your eyes.

But we're grateful now, because the sight of this man legging out this inside-the-parker was one we'll never forget.

But this hit -- the third hit -- would be the one that would keep on traveling for the rest of his career.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Seattle, I think it's cool your favorite player had a good game and all, but please lay off the extreme hyperbole. To compare his inside the park home run to the first moon walk is insulting, not to mention seriously reaching. Not everyone is a Mariner fan or an Ichiro fan. It simply doesn't have that much impact and is as much a fluke as anything else. I'd still take Fred Lynn's AS Game Grand Slam.

[Erik Bedard]

Yes, everybody is going to remember it forever, sort of like when Neil Armstrong said "this is one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind." Here is a pretty good take on the profound significance of Ichiro's inside-the-parker Tuesday night. This guy really seems to understand the lasting importance of what Ichiro did:

Ichiro takes round-trip to All-Star history (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2932445)
By Jayson Stark

SAN FRANCISCO -- It was just one flight of the baseball. Just one swoosh of Ichiro Suzuki's magic bat. Just one laser beam streaking off toward the place where batted balls live on forever.

But when everything else fades from one more All-Star Game victory for the American League -- in what is beginning to feel like a never-ending series of American League victories -- this was the moment that all the Wite-Out in California won't be able to erase.

This was the tale of the amazing Ichiro, gliding around the bases on a journey into All-Star history.

This was the tale of a suddenly defenseless outfielder by the name of Junior Griffey, watching a baseball that was determined to pinball around the funkiest right field in America until the man who hit it had orbited the bases.

This was the tale of the first inside-the-park home run ever hit in an All-Star Game -- a round-tripper that would become the defining moment Tuesday night in a 5-4 game that was won by the team that always wins the All-Star Game.

Think of all the sprint champs who have played in this game. How could Rickey Henderson never have hit an inside-the-parker in an All-Star Game? Or Maury Wills? Or Lou Brock?

Think of all the ballparks this game has been played in. Think of all the baseballs that have clattered off the walls in the most misshaped outfields in history. In Fenway. And Wrigley. And the Polo Grounds.

How could it be possible that none of those parks had ever manufactured the one classically goofy bounce it takes to produce a moment like the one we witnessed Tuesday night at AT&T Park?

We have no idea how events can conspire like that to keep something like this from happening for more than 70 years -- and then, in one fluky collision of events, it happens right before your eyes.

But we're grateful now, because the sight of this man legging out this inside-the-parker was one we'll never forget.

But this hit -- the third hit -- would be the one that would keep on traveling for the rest of his career.

Wow. You managed to compare something as insignificant as a home run caused by a lucky bounce to man walking on the moon. :crazy :crazy :crazy

Think about it. There have been 78 ASGs. There has been one inside-the-park HR. If it had happened in 1946, would you know who had hit it? No. Who hit the first WS inside-the-park HR? Could you tell me that? That is far more significant than one in the ASG. The ASG is one game, one game that should be meaningless, and was, up until four years ago. It means nothing. An unforgettable moment in baseball is something like Maz's HR, a UGS, a record-breaking hit or strikeout, but not one lucky bounce in one meaningless game.

[Seattle1]

Hey I didn't write the article, Jayson Stark did. But I agree with him.

The point is it's a memorable moment that no one will ever forget. If you want a baseball example there's Carlton Fisk using body language to keep the ball fair in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series, or Kirk Gibson pumping his fist after his home run in the 1988 World Series. Or, if you want an ASG example there's Pete Rose running over Ray Fosse in the 1970 game. Some things people never forget, just like Neil Armstrong's words.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Hey I didn't write the article, Jayson Stark did. But I agree with him.

The point is it's a memorable moment that no one will ever forget. If you want a baseball example there's Carlton Fisk using body language to keep the ball fair in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series, or Kirk Gibson pumping his fist after his home run in the 1988 World Series. Or, if you want an ASG example there's Pete Rose running over Ray Fosse in the 1970 game. Some things people never forget, just like Neil Armstrong's words.

Stark didn't mention the moon landing or Neil Armstrong. The impact of a fluky ASG event isn't even in the same continent.

You're letting your bias cloud your judgment. ASG memories will be just that, and while the Ichiro home run will be remembered every July, it's not as dramatic as Ted Williams's home run off of Rip Sewell's eephus, or Rose barreling Fosse over, or A-Rod pointing Cal Ripken Jr. to short or even Fred Lynn's grand slam. Not by an objective audience, which the great, great majority is.

[digglahhh]

Hey I didn't write the article, Jayson Stark did. But I agree with him.

The point is it's a memorable moment that no one will ever forget. If you want a baseball example there's Carlton Fisk using body language to keep the ball fair in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series, or Kirk Gibson pumping his fist after his home run in the 1988 World Series. Or, if you want an ASG example there's Pete Rose running over Ray Fosse in the 1970 game. Some things people never forget, just like Neil Armstrong's words.

People will forget about it NEXT YEAR!

Go into a bar (not in Seattle) on the day of next year's ASG and ask the people there what the most memorable moment of last year's ASG.

Let us know how it goes.

Who was the first player to hit an inside the parker in a spring training game?

I can't even begin to describe how insignificant that homer is. It is a novelty that happened in an exhibition game.

[Erik Bedard]

Wow. I completely forgot about Pete Rose running over Fosse. Why? Because it was a MEANINGLESS GAME. Fisk and Gibson's HRs actually meant something, they won a WS game. They were walk-off shots. Ichiro's came in the fifth inning, and if it wasn't for Victor Martinez's HR, the AL would have lost.

Anyway, since you think an ASG first is something that will be remembered forever, who was the first to do all of these? Without looking it up, I bet you can't tell me half of them.

Who had the first ASG...

Hit?
HR?
Double?
Triple?
Double play?
Strikeout?
Inning pitched?

If you think Ichiro's HR is any more memorable than any of those, you're gravely mistaken.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Ok, quick can you name the first player to hit a grand slam in ASG history? I think most baseball fans remember this HR even after all this time. So why wouldn't they remember Ichiro's inside-the-park HR?

[Erik Bedard]

I don't know. Unless it's Johnny Callison in 1964, I have no clue.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Ok, quick can you name the first player to hit a grand slam in ASG history? I think most baseball fans remember this HR even after all this time.

See post #404 and 407. ;)

Part of what made it memorable was how excited he was while rounding the bases, pumping his fist with an expression of absolute jubilation. I remember reading the article in the subsequent SI about it, where two players, teammate Doug Decinces and someone else, were talking about it as Lynn took to the plate. The other player commented how pitcher Atlee Hammaker "better not throw an inside slider," and DeCinces's reply was "If he does, Freddy will belt it out of the park."

Poor Hammaker. He gave up a home run earlier that inning to Jim Rice. How's that for a memory?

[Erik Bedard]

Oh :o. Just goes to show how non-memorable ASG events are. The only ones that jump out at me are Carl Hubbell striking out five HoFers in a row and... hmmmm... well, nothing else.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Oh :o. Just goes to show how non-memorable ASG events are. The only ones that jump out at me are Carl Hubbell striking out five HoFers in a row and... hmmmm... well, nothing else.

There are plenty of memorable ASG moments. The fact it is an exhibition game does not lessen the events of the game. Ichiro's HR will be remembered in all-star lore as the crowning moment of a performance that won him the MVP of the game. The game sure isn't meaningless to the players who are there, or who didn't make it and complain about it, or to the millions who watched or read about it.

If the Lynn grand slam was not memorable, how come I remember it so well? Non-memorable to you doesn't necessarily make it non-memorable, just as Ichiro's home run being as memorable as Neil Armstrong's words on the moon to Seattle1 doesn't make it so.

[digglahhh]

Okay, we are getting sidetracked by semantics a little bit.

Memorable or not, it was insignificant - and that is the main point.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Okay, we are getting sidetracked by semantics a little bit.

Memorable or not, it was insignificant - and that is the main point.

The home run was fairly insignificant, a matter of trivia as he did become to first to get an inside the park HR in an ASG. That is what trivia is all about, after all, a celebration of the significant and insignificent.

I could see "Took home 2007 All-Star Game MVP by going 3-3 including inside-the-park home run" going on his HOF plaque. I don't think that's unreasonable as the plaques are usually highlights of the career, not the case of why the player has a plaque. But I think the hits, batting titles, stolen bases and defense would take precedent.

[digglahhh]

As paradoxical as it sounds, it is something that is insignificant to his Hall of Fame resume, even if it ultimately appeared on his Hall of Fame plaque.

Do you agree, CCN?

[Captain Cold Nose]

As paradoxical as it sounds, it is something that is insignificant to his Hall of Fame resume, even if it ultimately appeared on his Hall of Fame plaque.

Do you agree, CCN?

It's a dash of pepper on a $50 dinner.

[iPod]

The point is it's a memorable moment that no one will ever forget. If you want a baseball example there's Carlton Fisk using body language to keep the ball fair in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series, or Kirk Gibson pumping his fist after his home run in the 1988 World Series. Or, if you want an ASG example there's Pete Rose running over Ray Fosse in the 1970 game. Some things people never forget, just like Neil Armstrong's words.

Seattle, you really need to look at this through the eyes of a person who doesn't worship Ichiro. An inside-the-park HR in an All-Star Game? Is on par with this stuff? Seriously, you think that?

CCN, if "Took home 2007 All-Star Game MVP by going 3-3 including inside-the-park home run" appeared on some guy's plaque in Cooperstown, and you knew nothing about him beforehand, wouldn't your first impulse be to grab the nearest employee and demand to know who this guy bribed to get in? That would look just so completely ridiculous and silly on a Hall of Fame plaque I'm confident even they wouldn't put it on Ichiro's, assuming he gets in.

[Rennie Stennett]

It is amazing that no one ever did it. All the great ballplayers that played in the mid-summer classic and none of them did it. Mays, Hammerin' Hank, Teddy Ballgame, Rod Carew, Jackie Robinson, Pistol Pete, Lou Brock, Curt Flood, Pete Rose...and on and on and on...Little Ichiro did it. The little engine that could...faster than a speeding bullet, More powerful than a locomotive, abile to leap tall buildings with a single bound...he's superman !

[Seattle1]

Seattle, you really need to look at this through the eyes of a person who doesn't worship Ichiro. An inside-the-park HR in an All-Star Game? Is on par with this stuff? Seriously, you think that?

The truth is, I am being 100% objective as an observer of the sport of baseball. All of the events I have mentioned I have done so for one reason: because they are iconic events that people don't forget about. Just like Jayson Stark said, everybody is going to remember Ichiro's inside-the-park homerun. It doesn't really matter that it wasn't a walk-off homerun that won the World Series, it's still one of those iconic events.

Another point about the play: it became an inside-the-park homerun largely because of Ichiro's speed, and not just because of a 'lucky bounce.' Imagine if David Ortiz or Dmitri Young had gotten the exact same hit. They would have been doing good to get a double or maybe a triple out of it. But Ichiro gets a piece-of-cake stand-up inside-the-park home run. Maybe the only other player in the game Tuesday night who could have done that under the same circumstances was Jose Reyes. That's why Torii Hunter was joking about Ichiro circling the bases in "5.2 seconds," lol.

[STLCards2]

It is amazing that no one ever did it. All the great ballplayers that played in the mid-summer classic and none of them did it. Mays, Hammerin' Hank, Teddy Ballgame, Rod Carew, Jackie Robinson, Pistol Pete, Lou Brock, Curt Flood, Pete Rose...and on and on and on...Little Ichiro did it. The little engine that could...faster than a speeding bullet, More powerful than a locomotive, abile to leap tall buildings with a single bound...he's superman !

Just out of curiosity... one inside-the-park-homerune in 78 years (all-star games) projects to about two for a normal 162 game season, obviously. How is this compared to an average MLB season the past 10 years? If the average number of inside-the-park homeruns is 2-4, than Ichiro's feat isn't that amazing or rare at all. If the average is like 7-8, than at least Ichiro's homer is rare (although still not meaningful or remarkably rememberable to anyone outsdie of Seattle in a few years.)

[Rennie Stennett]

Just out of curiosity... one inside-the-park-homerune in 78 years (all-star games) projects to about two for a normal 162 game season, obviously. How is this compared to an average MLB season the past 10 years? If the average number of inside-the-park homeruns is 2-4, than Ichiro's feat isn't that amazing or rare at all. If the average is like 7-8, than at least Ichiro's homer is rare (although still not meaningful or remarkably rememberable to anyone outsdie of Seattle in a few years.)

They have played the mid summer classic for 78 years. Some of these years (4) they played two. Eighty years ago, they had ballparks that were more indusive to the inside the parker. Not these shrunk up stadiums today made to take advantage of the steroid age and all these weak homers. Guys back then hit more in side the park er's, as they did doubles and triples, particularly triples. Going back ten years does not cut it. Go back eighty years. Check out some of these ball parks. Old Comiskey. Polo Grounds. Cleveland Muni. Yankee Stadium. Fenway Park. Sportsman's Park. Shibe Park. Forbes Field. Ebbets Field. Why didn't they hit any inside the park home runs back then ?

The book by Bill Jenkinson, about Babe Ruth is a great read. It talks about these old ballparks.

[dre1614]

Eric Bedard-

"It's not exactly a late-career move. He's only 32. And he's not exactly setting the world on fire so far in CF, ranking 16th among MLB CFs in DWS in 2007."

He is the best defensive outfielder in the game today bar none.

IMO its not even a question.

here is some zr data, form THT
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/d-fence/

[dre1614]

Wow. I completely forgot about Pete Rose running over Fosse. Why? Because it was a MEANINGLESS GAME. Fisk and Gibson's HRs actually meant something, they won a WS game. They were walk-off shots. Ichiro's came in the fifth inning, and if it wasn't for Victor Martinez's HR, the AL would have lost.

Anyway, since you think an ASG first is something that will be remembered forever, who was the first to do all of these? Without looking it up, I bet you can't tell me half of them.

Who had the first ASG...

Hit?
HR?
Double?
Triple?
Double play?
Strikeout?
Inning pitched?

If you think Ichiro's HR is any more memorable than any of those, you're gravely mistaken.

The difference is that, those you mentioned are all very common.

What Ichiro did is VERY uncommon

[Edgartohof]

There are not many firsts left out there, and that was one of them. It may not be remembered forever by everyone, but Mariner's fans sure will remember it. Just because you are pissed that someone from your own team wasn't able to do it, doesn't mean you have to get all pissy about it - and many of you are.

[Edgartohof]

"Who was the first person to hit an inside-the-park HR in the all-star game?" wouldn't it strike you as a stupid question, something like "Why the hell should I know that?"


Just because you may not have the facutlies to remember such events (can you remember anything?), doesn't mean others can't and won't. What, just because you don't care for it, means no one else should? Do you not think the hit was impressive and exciting?

I may be a Mariner's fan and an Ichiro fan to the extreme, but I'm also a baseball fan first, and can respect the game and ALL of the players in it, whether they play for the Mariner's or not.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Just because you may not have the facutlies to remember such events (can you remember anything?), doesn't mean others can't and won't. What, just because you don't care for it, means no one else should? Do you not think the hit was impressive and exciting? No? Well then who is the stupid one here?

I may be a Mariner's fan and an Ichiro fan to the extreme, but I'm also a baseball fan first, and can respect the game and ALL of the players in it, whether they play for the Mariner's or not. Maybe you ought to try it some time.

I thought Ichiro had a home run on that hit and then it took the weird hop off the wall. So it was going to be another home run anyway. Crazy.

[csh19792001]

There are not many firsts left out there, and that was one of them. It may not be remembered forever by everyone, but Mariner's fans sure will remember it. Just because you are pissed that someone from your own team wasn't able to do it, doesn't mean you have to get all pissy about it - and many of you are.

Edgar, do you know how many records Ichiro has or have a list of them? I had it at one time but can't locate it....

P.S.- Regarding this poll question...Ichiro is a lock for the HOF after 3 more seasons. Anyone who disagrees hasn't seen the guy play enough and/or doesn't understand the historical significance of what he's accomplished in only 6 years (and change) in the Major Leagues.

"There's nobody like Ichiro in either league—now or ever. He exists strictly within his own world, playing a game 100 percent unfamiliar to everyone else. The game has known plenty of 'slap' hitters, but none who sacrifice so much natural ability for the sake of the art. Maury Wills wasn't going to do anything but hit singles. Matty Alou wasn't a slugger in disguise. Ichiro, a man of wondrous strength, puts on impressive power-hitting displays almost nightly in batting practice. And he'll go deep occasionally in games, looking very much like someone who could do it again, often. Mostly, though, Ichiro is death by handkerchief. In the first inning, with lefty Mark Redman nibbling on the outside corner, Ichiro sliced a groundball single between third and short. Next time up, with the A's perhaps leaning that way again, he singled through the other side of the diamond. The man lives for hits, little tiny ones, and the glory of standing atop the world in that category. Every spring, scouts or media types write him off, swearing that opposing pitchers have found the key, and they are embarrassingly wrong."

- Bruce Jenkins in The San Francisco Chronicle (July 28, 2004)

[iPod]

Just because you may not have the facutlies to remember such events (can you remember anything?), doesn't mean others can't and won't. What, just because you don't care for it, means no one else should? Do you not think the hit was impressive and exciting?

I may be a Mariner's fan and an Ichiro fan to the extreme, but I'm also a baseball fan first, and can respect the game and ALL of the players in it, whether they play for the Mariner's or not.

Wait, what were we talking about? Edgar who?

Seriously, though, Rennie Stennett summed this up perfectly. The amazing thing is not what Ichiro did, but the fact that no one else had ever done it. 3 home runs in an all-star game would have been impressive regardless of what happened in the past. The impressiveness of Ichiro's HR rests on what is essentially just an accident of history. Firsts are only impressive because of the presumption that the feat is especially difficult; after all, no one had done it before. But there's no reason to believe it's especially difficult to hit an inside-the-park HR in an ASG, at least any moreso than a normal game.

[dre1614]

Wait, what were we talking about? Edgar who?

Seriously, though, Rennie Stennett summed this up perfectly. The amazing thing is not what Ichiro did, but the fact that no one else had ever done it. 3 home runs in an all-star game would have been impressive regardless of what happened in the past. The impressiveness of Ichiro's HR rests on what is essentially just an accident of history. Firsts are only impressive because of the presumption that the feat is especially difficult; after all, no one had done it before. But there's no reason to believe it's especially difficult to hit an inside-the-park HR in an ASG, at least any moreso than a normal game.

Well the players are alot better in an all-star game then in a normal game.

and also all inside the park home runs are luck, to be able to round all the bases, it takes incredible speed, and bad play by the defense.

[Williamsburg2599]

Well the players are alot better in an all-star game then in a normal game.

and also all inside the park home runs are luck, to be able to round all the bases, it takes incredible speed, and bad play by the defense.

I wouldn't say that all ITP HRs are good luck or bad D. If Ichiro hits a liner over the CF at Fenway and it slowly rolls into the back of the triangle, Ichiro would be able to get all the way around. The only reason they're aren't more ITP HRs is the symmetrical ball parks of modern day.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Edgar, do you know how many records Ichiro has or have a list of them? I had it at one time but can't locate it....

P.S.- Regarding this poll question...Ichiro is a lock for the HOF after 3 more seasons. Anyone who disagrees hasn't seen the guy play enough and/or doesn't understand the historical significance of what he's accomplished in only 6 years (and change) in the Major Leagues.

"There's nobody like Ichiro in either league—now or ever. He exists strictly within his own world, playing a game 100 percent unfamiliar to everyone else. The game has known plenty of 'slap' hitters, but none who sacrifice so much natural ability for the sake of the art. Maury Wills wasn't going to do anything but hit singles. Matty Alou wasn't a slugger in disguise. Ichiro, a man of wondrous strength, puts on impressive power-hitting displays almost nightly in batting practice. And he'll go deep occasionally in games, looking very much like someone who could do it again, often. Mostly, though, Ichiro is death by handkerchief. In the first inning, with lefty Mark Redman nibbling on the outside corner, Ichiro sliced a groundball single between third and short. Next time up, with the A's perhaps leaning that way again, he singled through the other side of the diamond. The man lives for hits, little tiny ones, and the glory of standing atop the world in that category. Every spring, scouts or media types write him off, swearing that opposing pitchers have found the key, and they are embarrassingly wrong."

- Bruce Jenkins in The San Francisco Chronicle (July 28, 2004)

Great quote Chris. :clapping I suspect Ichiro is one of those athletes who is freakishly strong for his size. There was a long distancer runner, named Joe Falcon, back in the early 1990s who weighed about 125 pounds but could bench press 225 pounds. The NBA player Earl Boykins, who weighs 135 pounds, have been known to bench press over 300 pounds. I think Ichiro might be this kind of athlete.

[STLCards2]

There are not many firsts left out there, and that was one of them. It may not be remembered forever by everyone, but Mariner's fans sure will remember it. Just because you are pissed that someone from your own team wasn't able to do it, doesn't mean you have to get all pissy about it - and many of you are.

Pissed? I am not sure where you are coming from. First of all, I have not seen one poster say anything mean-spirited or "pissy" regarding Ichiro and the All Star Game. Several have said that since it is an exhibition game it was less meaningful and will be forgotten most likely as have the other "great moments" in ASG history, but I don't remember where somebody said that in a "pissy" way. Also, I don't know anybody who cares enough or is emotionaly attatched to the ASG enough to become pissed that it wasn't "their guy". Heck, I can't specificaly remember a single Cardinals' ASG AB in the 20 years I've watched the thing - save Ozzie's last ASG AB in '96. All I remember is Pujols not batting.:laugh

[Edgartohof]

Edgar, do you know how many records Ichiro has or have a list of them? I had it at one time but can't locate it....


Well, here's a start:

First Japanese born Position Player in the MLB

most hits by a rookie - 242 (2001)
most hits in a single season - 262 (2004)
most hits in 6 consecutive seasons - 1354 (2001-2006)

200+ hits in 6 consecutive seasons (2001-2004) - only behind Boggs (7), and Keeler (8)
200+ hits in FIRST 6 consecutive seasons
Led the AL (and MLB) in hits 3 times (2001, 2004, 2006)
Top 2 in hits all 6 seasons

most singles in a single season - 225 (2004)
has led in singles 6 consecutive years

AL record for consecutive stolen bases in a single season- 39
AL record for consecutive stolen bases - 45

5 (soon to be 6) consecutive OF GG's
6 consecutive All-Star appearances - led in voting twice(?)

Tied for most hits in a single League Division Series - 12 (2001) - Tied with Edgar Martinez (as a side note, Mariner's players hold 3 of the top 4 positions here - Buhner is tied for 3rd with 11).
He is also tied for 1st in BA in a single League Division Series - .600 (2001)

Four 20+ game hit streaks
Five 6 hit games (Boggs only had 3)

I'm not sure of this one, but I believe he holds the record for most AB's in a 5 and 6 year span, if not a couple more (i.e 3 and 4 year spans as well).

First player in AL history to win a GG, ROY, batting championship, MVP and stolen base championship in one season

1st player to have an Inside-The-Park HR in the All-Star Game
All-Star game MVP

Active Leader in BA - .3324 (29th all-time; min. 3000 PA)

[iPod]

Well, here's a start:

First Japanese born Position Player in the MLB

most hits by a rookie - 242 (2001)
most hits in a single season - 262 (2004)
most hits in 6 consecutive seasons - 1354 (2001-2006)

200+ hits in 6 consecutive seasons (2001-2004) - only behind Boggs (7), and Keeler (8)
200+ hits in FIRST 6 consecutive seasons
Led the AL (and MLB) in hits 3 times (2001, 2004, 2006)
Top 2 in hits all 6 seasons

most singles in a single season - 225 (2004)
has led in singles 6 consecutive years

AL record for consecutive stolen bases in a single season- 39
AL record for consecutive stolen bases - 45

5 (soon to be 6) consecutive OF GG's
6 consecutive All-Star appearances - led in voting twice(?)

Tied for most hits in a single League Division Series - 12 (2001) - Tied with Edgar Martinez (as a side note, Mariner's players hold 3 of the top 4 positions here - Buhner is tied for 3rd with 11).
He is also tied for 1st in BA in a single League Division Series - .600 (2001)

Four 20+ game hit streaks
Five 6 hit games (Boggs only had 3)

I'm not sure of this one, but I believe he holds the record for most AB's in a 5 and 6 year span, if not a couple more (i.e 3 and 4 year spans as well).

First player in AL history to win a GG, ROY, batting championship, MVP and stolen base championship in one season

1st player to have an Inside-The-Park HR in the All-Star Game
All-Star game MVP

Active Leader in BA - .3324 (29th all-time; min. 3000 PA)

A lot of these aren't records, and some of them that are records seem contrived. And others that don't sound contrived sound less impressive when you look at them in a bigger context, like, how the average AL player in 2004 got 1.60 bases per hit, whereas Ichiro only got 1.22, and that despite having 50 more hits than anyone in the AL that year he was only 6th in total bases. But come on, even in that context, you don't feel the least bit silly including "first player to hit an inside-the-park HR in the ASG" in that list? Let me ask you this: were you even aware that an inside-the-park HR had never been hit in the ASG until Ichiro hit one? Did it ever even enter your head that "inside-the-park HR during the ASG" trivia was something that you should bone up on? If the lack of an inside-the-parker wasn't important enough to point out before this year's game, why does it become important when he hits one?

[iPod]

The truth is, I am being 100% objective as an observer of the sport of baseball. All of the events I have mentioned I have done so for one reason: because they are iconic events that people don't forget about. Just like Jayson Stark said, everybody is going to remember Ichiro's inside-the-park homerun. It doesn't really matter that it wasn't a walk-off homerun that won the World Series, it's still one of those iconic events.


Comparing hitting a freaking inside-the-park home run in a freaking All-Star Game to Gibson's home run, Fisk's home run, or, God forbid, the MOON LANDING, is not being objective. Nobody is going to be tempted to create "SportsCentury: The All-Star Game Inside-The-Park Home Run Story" 20 years from now. Come on... how would that even go?

Fat ex-baseball scout in a windbreaker: "Hit an inside-the-park HR in the All-Star Game? They said it couldn't be done..."
Maury Wills: "I thought I'd had one back in 1962, but by God, Mays ran full tilt and made a throw so good it kept me at third base, so I only got a triple. I just knew... that was my one chance to get an inside-the-park home run in the All-Star game. It was a once in a lifetime shot and I just missed it. I swore that day no one would ever do what I just said. You know, hit an inside-the-park home run in the All-Star game. It's impossible..."
Voiceover of Chris Fowler: "...And for years, it was impossible. Until one man came along..."

[SamtheBravesFan]

That is hardly an iconic event. I'm having trouble remembering it right now. :p

[Honus Wagner Rules]

That is hardly an iconic event. I'm having trouble remembering it right now. :p
Remember what? What are you talking about? :shrug:

[STLCards2]

It is obviously common for fans from a particular region to support their favorite sons, even sometimes counterintuitively to what fact say. Frisco fans will come to Barry Bonds defense moreso than other fans no matter what happens. The same can be said for any star in any city. The anti-McGwire backlash here is nowhee near as bad as it is elsewhere. It is not suprising that those who saw Koufax pitch in L.A. are mostly the ones who put him in theri top 5-10's of all time. However, I have never seen a group of fans who are more defensive of any player than Mariner fans and Ichiro. If you say anything less-than-flattering towards him-even if there is some truth involved (like Ichiro's lack of Slugg. in comaprison to the Pujols and Ramirez' of the world can't be fully made up by Ichiro's defense and baserunning) it is treated like an attack against the entire cultural fabric of the Seattle community. If this is the kind of connection the town has with Ichiro, than his contract is a bargain!

Pleas don't take my comments the wrong way, I am just making an observation. I could be totaly wrong. I happen to like Ichiro, and feel he is a Hall of Famer - just not quite as good as his extraordinary loyal fans believe. I have a feeling most at BBF agree with my standpoint.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Remember what? What are you talking about? :shrug:

Oh, it was something about a really fast guy and a ball taking a weird hop off of a wall... can't remember anything else...

:laugh ;)

[csh19792001]

and also all inside the park home runs are luck, to be able to round all the bases, it takes incredible speed, and bad play by the defense.

As to the "bad play" component of your comment, that's not implicitly true, even in this era of tiny, symmetrical, mainly cookie-cutter parks.

If the outfielders are playing in for a single and Ichiro hits one to the wall in SF out to the 420 mark, or were he to hit one in a park like Houston or Florida to the deep parts of the park, it'd be an inside the park HR. He's still that fast on the bases, and still gets that kind of jump.

That ISPHR was luck, but all are not. The further back you go in history, the more it was testament to power hitting combined with at least a modicum of speed.

[csh19792001]

Great quote Chris. :clapping.

Thank you, Adam! :waving

[Edgartohof]

A lot of these aren't records, and some of them that are records seem contrived. And others that don't sound contrived sound less impressive when you look at them in a bigger context, like, how the average AL player in 2004 got 1.60 bases per hit, whereas Ichiro only got 1.22, and that despite having 50 more hits than anyone in the AL that year he was only 6th in total bases. But come on, even in that context, you don't feel the least bit silly including "first player to hit an inside-the-park HR in the ASG" in that list? Let me ask you this: were you even aware that an inside-the-park HR had never been hit in the ASG until Ichiro hit one? Did it ever even enter your head that "inside-the-park HR during the ASG" trivia was something that you should bone up on? If the lack of an inside-the-parker wasn't important enough to point out before this year's game, why does it become important when he hits one?

yes, they are all contrived - in fact, I made them all up - you caught me!

Someone asked for a quick list, so I did a quick COPY/PASTE from another thread of some of Ichiro's more notable accomplishments (which I all made up of course).


That is except for:


most hits by a rookie - 242 (2001)
most hits in a single season - 262 (2004)
most hits in 6 consecutive seasons - 1354 (2001-2006)

Those are records aren't they?

200+ hits in 6 consecutive seasons (2001-2004) - only behind Boggs (7), and Keeler (8)
200+ hits in FIRST 6 consecutive seasons
Led the AL (and MLB) in hits 3 times (2001, 2004, 2006)
Top 2 in hits all 6 seasons

The first one will most likely be his record in another couple seasons, the second one IS a record, and I'm sorry if I decided to add a couple more points of interest - is EVERYTHING Ichiro does BAD or something? Just because he doesn't hit 30+ HR's a season, does that make him a bad player and a bad person?

most singles in a single season - 225 (2004)
has led in singles 6 consecutive years

Again, another record, and another point of interest.

AL record for consecutive stolen bases in a single season- 39
AL record for consecutive stolen bases - 45

Sure sounds like a RECORD to me

6 consecutive OF GG's
7 consecutive All-Star appearances - led in voting twice
1st player to have an Inside-The-Park HR in the All-Star Game
All-Star game MVP

How pathetic - he's only been to what, 7 all-star games? Heck, Hank Aaron was in 21!!!

Tied for most hits in a single League Division Series - 12 (2001) - Tied with Edgar Martinez (as a side note, Mariner's players hold 3 of the top 4 positions here - Buhner is tied for 3rd with 11).
He is also tied for 1st in BA in a single League Division Series - .600 (2001)


seeing as how this post was originally in the MARINER'S forum, and I just copy and pasted it from there, a couple pieces of info that might seem more interesting to Mariner's fans did make it in there (sorry that I wasted your time by not taking it out :( )

Five 20+ game hit streaks
Six 5 hit games (Boggs only had 3)

Again, pathetic - I know, barely worth mentioning

I'm not sure of this one, but I believe he holds the record for most AB's in a 5 and 6 year span, if not a couple more (i.e 3 and 4 year spans as well).

Maybe not the most impressive feat, but another note of interest (which apparently doesn't interest you (what does - Home Runs? Steroids? Hmmm....?)

First player in AL history to win a GG, ROY, batting championship, MVP and stolen base championship in one season

What WERE they thinking? He is just a pathetic player - who barely deserves to live, let alone play baseball...

Active Leader in BA - .3324 (29th all-time; min. 3000 PA)

Yeah, It would only be impressive if he was #1 all-time, but since he isn't...