BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1926

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1926 Guide
There are 35 candidates on the 1926 ballot – 24 holdovers and 11 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1921 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (11)
Ping Bodie
Ray Caldwell
Johnny Evers (Age Rule)
Ed Konetchy
Duffy Lewis
Dots Miller
Dode Paskert
Slim Sallee
Lefty Tyler
Hippo Vaughn
Ossie Vitt

Holdovers (24)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support
Chief Bender 5th 41.67% 44.83% (1924)
Bill Bradley 7th 12.50% 16.13% (1921)
Ray Chapman 2nd 4.17% 4.17% (1925)
Frank Chance 8th 50.00% 65.38% (1920)
Jack Coombs 2nd 12.50% 12.50% (1925)
Gavvy Cravath 2nd 37.50% 37.50% (1925)
Lave Cross 15th 33.33% 38.46% (1920)
Mike Donlin 8th 20.83% 25.93% (1919)
Larry Doyle 2nd 54.17% 54.17% (1925)
Ray Fisher 2nd 4.17% 4.17% (1925)
Clark Griffith 12th 62.50% 62.50% (1925)
Claude Hendrix 2nd 4.17% 4.17% (1925)
Buck Herzog 2nd 4.17% 4.17% (1925)
Miller Huggins 6th 20.83% 20.83% (1925)
Hughie Jennings 13th 66.67% 69.23% (1923)
Fielder Jones 14th 16.67% 19.23% (1920)
Addie Joss 12th 54.17% 74.07% (1919)
Benny Kauff 2nd 4.17% 4.17% (1925)
Johnny Kling 9th 16.67% 26.92% (1920)
Tommy Leach 5th 33.33% 41.38% (1924)
Ed Reulbach 5th 8.33% 17.24% (1924)
Jimmy Sheckard 9th 29.17% 42.31% (1920)
Roy Thomas 11th 8.33% 25.00% (1917)
Joe Tinker 6th 25.00% 25.00% (1925)

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (4)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support
Harry Davis Lack of Support 4 11.54% (1923)
John McGraw Eligibility Expired 15 47.83% (1912)
Terry Turner Lack of Support 2 3.45% (1924)
Hooks Wiltsie Lack of Support 6 7.69% (1923)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Lave Cross 38.46% (1920)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Fielder Jones 19.23% (1920)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
Player 1925 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Hughie Jennings 66.67% 11
Clark Griffith 62.50% 3
Larry Doyle 54.17% 1
Addie Joss 54.17% 11
Frank Chance 50.00% 6

Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919) 2
Hardy Richardson* 69.57% (1912) 3 1915
Hughie Jennings 69.23% (1923) 2
Jimmy Ryan 67.86% (1922) 1 1922

* = Elected by Veterans Committee


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (63)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Living – Age 72 53
Roger Bresnahan 1925 79.17% 6 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1897, 1900-1915 17 Living - Age 47 46
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Living – Age 68 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 50 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 58 42
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 58 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 56 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Living – Age 69 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 46 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 56 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 56 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 60 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 50 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 69 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 69 52
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 60 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Living – Age 71 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 69 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 55 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 52 47
Herman Long* 1925 (VC) 75.00% VC Shortstop Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1889-1904 16 Deceased (1866-1909) Deceased
Sherry Magee 1924 86.21% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1904-1919 16 Living – Age 42 40
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Deceased (1880-1925) 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Living – Age 55 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 67 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Deceased (1849-1926) 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 66 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 57 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Deceased (1875-1926) 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 71 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 55 30
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Living - Age 84 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 70 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 60 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 52 48
Bobby Wallace 1925 75.00% 3 Shortstop St. Louis Browns (AL) 1894-1918 25 Living - Age 53 52
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 45 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Deceased (1860-1925) 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 67 61
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 79 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 50 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 79 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 59 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (5): Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (5): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner, Joe Start
Second Base (5): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (2): Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (9): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Dickey Pearce, John Ward, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, George Wright
Left Field (7): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (7): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (18): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):
1924 (1): Sherry Magee
1925 (2): Roger Bresnahan, Bobby Wallace
- 1925 VC (1): Herman Long

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (15): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Joe Kelley, Herman Long, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (17): Roger Bresnahan, Mordecai Brown, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell , Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young
1910s (1): Sherry Magee

Players Elected by Primary Organization
Baltimore Canaries (NA) (1): Lip Pike
Baltimore Orioles (NL) (2): Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley
Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) (NL) (6): John Clarkson, Hugh Duffy, Herman Long, Kid Nichols, Ezra Sutton, Vic Willis
Boston Red Sox (fka Americans) (AL) (2): Jimmy Collins, Cy Young
Boston Red Stockings (NA) (4): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Al Spalding, George Wright
Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) (1): Dickey Pearce
Buffalo Bisons (NL) (4): Dan Brouthers, Pud Galvin, Hardy Richardson, Deacon White
Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) (NL) (5): Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Bill Dahlen, George Gore, King Kelly
Chicago White Sox (AL) (1): Ed Walsh
Cincinnati Reds (NL, AA) (2): Bid McPhee, Tony Mullane
Cleveland Blues (NL) (1): Jack Glasscock
Cleveland Indians (fka Naps) (AL) (2): Elmer Flick, Napoleon Lajoie
Cleveland Spiders (NL) (2): Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs
Detroit Tigers (AL) (1): Sam Crawford
Detroit Wolverines (NL) (1): Charlie Bennett
Louisville Colonels (NL, AA) (1): Pete Browning
New York Giants (NL) (12): Roger Bresnahan, Roger Connor, George Davis, Buck Ewing, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Jim O’Rourke, Amos Rusie, George Van Haltren, John Ward, Mickey Welch
Philadelphia Athletics (AL) (2): Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell
Philadelphia Athletics (AA) (1): Harry Stovey
Philadelphia Phillies (NL) (4): Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Sherry Magee, Sam Thompson
Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) (3): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke, Honus Wagner
Providence Grays (NL) (3): Paul Hines, Charley Radbourn, Joe Start
St. Louis Browns (AL) (1): Bobby Wallace
St. Louis Cardinals (fka Browns) (NL, AA) (1): Bob Caruthers


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 28
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 17
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 83.93%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years: 5
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.89 Years
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 8
- Average Electees per Veterans Committee Election: 4
- Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss – 74.07% (1919)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.20
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 31 (1921)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 25
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 12
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters) - 6
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 15.76 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 48.53
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 12
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 40
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Joe Start – Age 84
- Deceased in Past Year: Cal McVey, Eddie Plank

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25
1924: 29
1925: 24

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)
1924 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84423)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84552), 1925 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)

[jjpm74]

Congrats to both Bresnahan and Wallace for getting elected. It'll be interesting how next year pans out.

I see a few who could definitely benefit from some discussion and/or clarification:

Chief Bender
Frank Chance
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Larry Doyle
Johnny Evers
Miller Huggins
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard

There are four within the above group who had a significant impact off the field as well as on the field that helps catapult them over the top if considering these achievements:

Frank Chance--Frank Chance as a player was the best player on the best team in baseball. In addition, he also managed the team while playing. This role as manager and leader should definitely be taken into consideration when looking at Chance's case.

Clark Griffith--In addition to being an outstanding pitcher, Griffith was also a player-manager for much of his career and put together an impressive 20 year career as a manager, compiling almost 3000 wins before moving into the position of team president. Griffith continues to be a big presence in baseball now as an executive.

Miller Huggins--As a player, he may have been the best at his position. As a manager, he's finished 1st 3 times already and with the young talent he has, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were to win many more.

Hughie Jennings--As a player, Jennings was possibly the best in baseball at his position. As a manager over a 16 year span, including 4 years as a player-manager, Jennings just won 4 league titles which puts him in very elite company.

Our hall is one where we look at the whole player. Why not extend this approach to these five candidates, all of whom deserve a place there when looking at their full picture?

[BlueBlood]

1. Bender, P
2. Doyle, 2B
3. Jennings, SS
4. Joss, P

Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

Thirteen (1914 onward) - Hughie Jennings
Twelve (1915 onward) - Addie Joss
Five (1922 onward) - Chief Bender
Two (1925) - Larry Doyle


For what they lack in career standards, both Jennings/Joss had inarguable HOF quality peaks. Did they really need extra padding in order to be pushed into HOF territory?

Doyle seems like a lock for a 2B, especially if you're approaching this project from a 1926 perspective.

I've started reading Chief Bender's Burden which I recently checked out from the library. Very well written, illuminating biography that puts a lot of things in perspective. Bender was certainly a groundbreaking player in certain regards.

[DoubleX]

I went with 6 this time:

Frank Chance
Lave Cross - This is mostly a sympathy vote given it's his last year and I think 3B is very under represented.
Larry Doyle
Clark Griffith (I had to add a vote for him because I forgot to check him off, and thus you won't see my name next to him, but the vote is there)
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss

Doyle and Joss are the only ones I really feel strongly about though. Doyle had a pretty good showing in his first year, so I think with some discussion, he could get there. He's been one the very best offensive 2Bmen we've seen.

[jjpm74]

Please add a Vote for Larry Doyle. I just noticed that I forgot to check off his box. :blush:

Chief Bender--New addition. Bender had an impressive career on closer look. He's assured a permanent slot on my ballot.

Frank Chance--The best player on the best team deserves to be there. His managerial work is just icing on the cake.

Lave Cross--15th year of eligibility. He's close enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Larry Doyle--A shining star among second basemen

Johnny Evers--A great second baseman

Clark Griffith--When looking at the whole picture, this guy deserves a permanent slot on my ballot.

Miller Huggins--Voting for him this year in the hopes that someone will compare Huggins and Evers.

Hughie Jennings--As stated, his peak was amazing. Why punish a guy for not having the padding to go with it?

Addie Joss--A short career, but an amazing pitcher.

Johnny Kling--The best catcher on the board.

Tommy Leach--Amazing defense, great offense. I'm not sure why he's struggling here.

Hippo Vaughn--Joss supporters take note. Vaughn was as impressive if not more so.

Ossie Vitt--His defensive ability gives him a free pass for me this round. I'm not likely to vote for him again next year.

[jalbright]

Doyle
Leach

[philkid3]

Bill Bradley
Frank Chance
Hughie Jennings
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard
Joe Tinker

[jjpm74]

Hippo Vaughn vs. Addie Joss

CWS:

Vaughn 205
Joss: 191

5 year peak WS:

Vaughn: 24-24-28-30-22
Joss: 23-25-26-26-21

ERA+:

Vaughn: 120
Joss: 142

ERA:

Vaughn: 2.49
Joss: 1.89

20+ Win seasons:

Vaughn: 5
Joss: 4

W-L Pct.

Vaughn: 178-137 .565
Joss: 160-97 .623

Career length:

Vaughn: 13 yrs.
Joss: 9 yrs.

IP:

Vaughn: 2730
Joss: 2327

SHO:

Vaughn: 41
Joss 45

Hippo Vaughn had a peak similar to Joss. The big difference between the two was that Vaughn was a late bloomer whereas Joss died prematurely.

[philkid3]

Smallest ballot in a while. I'm very happy Bresnahan finally got in.

I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate to me on the improtance of second base defense in this era. Is it as valuable as other eras, or is it just another spot for a bat?

I've kept Doyle off my ballot for this reason, but the support he's getting has made me want to explore this a little more. For the same reason, I'm also keeping Evers off my ballot for now, and, to be fair, pulled Huggins off. This is unusual, as, typically, when I only vote for someone after I've made up my mind, but I'm having second thoughts about Huggins. Some or all of them will probably go back on later.


So, what can you tell me about how I should look at second base defense in these players eras as opposed to other eras?

[henrich]

Bender
Coombs
Cross
Doyle
Reulbach

Probably no slam dunks, but I'd like to see Bender and Cross make it.

[Cowtipper]

Bender
Cravath
Cross
Donlin
Doyle
Griffith
Jennings
Joss
Reulbach

I'm adding Hughie Jennings to my ballot this election.

[philkid3]

Jennings might actually have a chance!

[jjpm74]

Some of the top infielders on the board:

2B:

Larry Doyle

5 year peak: 27-25-28-29-21
Top WS: 33
CWS: 289
Fielding: C+
OPS+: 126

Excellent peak, good offense, average defense at a defensively demanding position.

Johnny Evers

5 year peak: 20-22-28-27-22
CWS: 201
Top WS: 28
Fielding: A-
OPS+: 106

Decent peak, decent offense, excellent fielder at a defensively demanding position.

Miller Huggins

5 year peak: 20-27-22-19-17
CWS: 222
Top WS: 27
Fielding: B-
OPS+: 107

Good fielder, at a defensively demanding position.

SS:

Hughie Jennings

5 year peak: 24-29-36-29-32
Top WS: 36
CWS: 214
Fielding: A+
OPS+: 117

Pretty impressive whether or not he gets bonus points for his managerial career. Arguably the best player on the ballot and the player most overdue for election.

Joe Tinker

5 year peak: 32-24-22-21-19
Top WS: 32
CWS: 258
Fielding: A+
OPS+: 95

Excellent fielder, good peak, good career length.

3B:

Bill Bradley:

5 year peak: 19-26-29-28-22
Top WS: 29
CWS: 191
Fielding: B+
OPS+: 108

Above average defensively, short career, but good peak, good offensively.

Lave Cross

5 year peak: 17-17-16-19-26
Top WS: 26
CWS: 278
Fielding: A+
OPS+: 100

Excellent defensively, not much of a peak, but an unusually long and consistent career.

Tommy Leach

5 year peak:17-19-29-31-26
Top WS: 31
CWS: 328
Fielding: A+(3B) A+(CF)
OPS+: 109

Great peak, excellent career, possibly one of the best defensive players in the history of the game at 2 defensive positions, good offense. Along with Jennings, he's probably the strongest candidate on the ballot.

C:

Johnny Kling

3 year peak: 21-19-22
Top WS: 22
CWS: 155
Fielding: B
OPS+: 100

Kling's career was on the short side and he had no 5 year peak to speak of. However, as a catcher, he was actually one of the top players in the history of the game in terms of longevity. His offense was good for a catcher and he was one of the most valuable overall catchers of his generation when taking into consideration fielding and offense.

[bambambaseball]

Leach is the best player there. Why arent people voting for him:confused:

He's even better then Jennings, Joss and Doyle!

[philkid3]

Leach is the best player there. Why arent people voting for him:confused:

He's even better then Jennings, Joss and Doyle!

You should present your argument.

[Freakshow]

Bresnahan and Wallace were elected. McGraw exired. Taking their places are newbie Evers and first-timers Doyle and Huggins.

Chance
Cravath
L. Cross
Doyle
Evers
Griffith
Huggins
Jennings
F. Jones
Joss
Kling
Leach
Sheckard
Thomas
Tinker

[dgarza]

Chief Bender
Frank Chance
Gavvy Cravath
Mike Donlin
Larry Doyle
Johnny Evers
Hugh Jennings
Addie Joss
Joe Tinker


1. Larry Doyle
2. Addie Joss
3. Gavvy Cravath
4. Chief Bender
5. Mike Donlin
6. Hugh Jennings
7. Johnny Evers
8. Joe Tinker
9. Frank Chance

[bambambaseball]

You should present your argument.

My English is bad but Ill try.

Tommy Leach was a homer hitter during his time. He also had a lot of speed. He had a lot of triples in his career and was one of the best ever. He also had a lot of inside the park homers. He was in the top 10 when he was done. He also could field. This made him very valuble. He could play multiple places and because he could, he played 3B and CF. He was possibly the best defensive CF until Mays. He was the best 3B until Brooks Robinson. He was a star from the beginning. He was the best player on his team many times.

The win share posted by jjpm76 shows just two good he was. I dont have his win shares around but he was the best or one of the best on his team many times. He was also very good for very long even when losing his wife and his second wife to illness during his time.

[dgarza]

The big difference between the two was that Vaughn was a late bloomer whereas Joss died prematurely.What about career ERA, ERA+, & % ? (last 8 keystrokes = +, & % ?)???

[jjpm74]

What about career ERA, ERA+, & % ? (last 8 keystrokes = +, & % ?)???


1. Joss' career was very short; 4 years shorter than Vaughn.

2. Joss played in an era where there was much less offense than when Vaughn played.

3. Joss had no decline stage. Had he, his stats wouldn't be as inflated as they are.

4. Their win shares comparison shows that the two are very similar and is a much more accurate stats to analyze than ERA and ERA+.

[Cowtipper]

1. Joss' career was very short; 4 years shorter than Vaughn.

2. Joss played in an era where there was much less offense than when Vaughn played.

3. Joss had no decline stage. Had he, his stats wouldn't be as inflated as they are.

4. Their win shares comparison shows that the two are very similar and is a much more accurate stats to analyze than ERA and ERA+.

Even in a less offensive era, Joss' ERA was still nearly a point below league average.

[jjpm74]

Even in a less offensive era, Joss' ERA was still nearly a point below league average.

Best 5 ERA minimum 20 games:

Vaughn: 2.05, 2.01, 1.83, 1.79, 1.74
Joss: 1.83, 1.72, 1.71, 1.59, 1.16

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that there is not a significant separation between Joss and Vaughn and that Joss supporters should take a closer look at Vaughn because he is being underrated. Not that Joss is not a good candidate for election. Both had equally impressive best 5 ERAs. Here are their best 5 ERA+ minimum 20 games:

Vaughn: 161, 161, 145, 144, 136
Joss: 205, 160, 151, 149, 137

IMO, Joss is getting as much support as he is because he is in the NBHofM and Vaughn is getting shafted because he's not in the NBHofM and doesn't have the benefit of being touted as a major oversight by the uberstat crowd. I challenge anyone to argue against the merits of Vaughn at his best from a 1926 standpoint.

[DoubleX]

I think Vaughn has a decent case, but he's not on the same level as Joss, IMO. The 400 extra innings that Vaughn pitched don't make up for Joss' 22 point lead in ERA+. Had Joss lived and continued to pitch, he would have had to drop off quite a bit for a number of seasons to get his ERA+ down around 120, and even if it did get down there, he almost certainly would have pitched significantly more innings than Vaughn. A 120 ERA+ in 2700 innings like Vaughn is good, but it doesn't really strike you like Joss' 142 in 2300 innings.

EDIT: I'm starting to be swayed by the discussion around Leach. I'd like to hear a little more on his defensive abilities at the two positions though.

[PVNICK]

Bender
Chance
Cross
Doyle
Joss
Kling
Leach
Sheckard

I almost voted for Evers but I would rather stack up his defense vs. chis contemporaries before doing so. Ultimately I'll pul the trigger. I did add Leach, who may well have suffered from playing in the giant shadow of Wagner along with those cast by Clarke and, ever so briefly, Beaumont.

I took a look at Griffith again but don't see it. Not that he's not good but as a pitcher he really had one year at or about the top of the league and at most two more near it, one of which was that 1st year of the AL when it was still a bit haphazard. Also his win total is 230 something which is not close to 300 which was the notation that made me look twice to begin with. If you tell me definitively that we are including what men have done within the game since retirement then I would vote otherwise. But I thought this was just for playing career only.

Vaughn was close for me. He was arguably the best pitcher, or close to it , in the NL during the second half of the last decade. But that was it for him. He did not rise as high as Joss to get my vote.

[dgarza]

IMO, Joss is getting as much support as he is because he is in the NBHofM and Vaughn is getting shafted because he's not in the NBHofM and doesn't have the benefit of being touted as a major oversight by the uberstat crowd. I challenge anyone to argue against the merits of Vaughn at his best from a 1926 standpoint.Vaughn has a very stong HOF case, but he is just shy for me. Joss has a strong case, but he is over the line for me. Neither had a long career, so most all they had was peak. There's not much of a distance between them, but there is a line between them.

Here, yes, Joss's being a member of the real-world HOF is most likely an important factor for voters, whether they are aware of it or not I cannot say.

[dgarza]

A 120 ERA+ in 2700 innings like Vaughn is good, but it doesn't really strike you like Joss' 142 in 2300 innings.

Through about the same number of innings, Vaughn's ERA+ is 125.

If you want to look at WHIP through those 23?? innings, it's 0.968 (Joss) vs. 1.169 (Vaughn).

[KCGHOST]

Doyle
Griffith
Jennings
Joss

[DoubleX]

If you want to look at WHIP through those 23?? innings, it's 0.968 (Joss) vs. 1.169 (Vaughn).

I'd have to see some kind of WHIP+ number to better appreciate that. :)

Joss has come as close to election as a player can get - over 74%. I'm surprised he's not only regressed, but so dramatically in recent years. He has three years left, so if there are strong Joss supporters out there, now is the time to build up his candidacy.

[jjpm74]

With 3 days left on this one, Larry Doyle and Hughie Jennings are hanging on for dear life.

Next year, we do have a no brainer coming up for eligibility in Frank Baker. Smoky Joe Wood will also probably have his share of supporters, though not enough to get elected. Here's who I have for 1927. Any age rule candidates?

Frank Baker
Bill Bailey
Phil Douglas
Art Fletcher
Del Gainer
Jack Graney
Hal Janvrin
Doc Johnston
Clyde Milan
Otto Miller
Les Nunamaker
Ferdie Schupp
Possum Whitted
Smoky Joe Wood
Ralph Young

I would definitely cut Bill Bailey, Del Gainer, Hal Janvrin, Les Nunamaker, and Ferdie Schupp. Phil Douglas and Otto Miller didn't have have significant careers and could be cut as well.

[Brooklyn]

Larry Doyle and Adie Joss

[DoubleX]

Next year, we do have a no brainer coming up for eligibility in Frank Baker. Smoky Joe Wood will also probably have his share of supporters, though not enough to get elected. Here's who I have for 1927. Any age rule candidates?

Frank Baker
Bill Bailey
Phil Douglas
Art Fletcher
Del Gainer
Jack Graney
Hal Janvrin
Doc Johnston
Clyde Milan
Otto Miller
Les Nunamaker
Ferdie Schupp
Possum Whitted
Smoky Joe Wood
Ralph Young

I would definitely cut Bill Bailey, Del Gainer, Hal Janvrin, Les Nunamaker, and Ferdie Schupp. Phil Douglas and Otto Miller didn't have have significant careers and could be cut as well.

I have the same list and the same likely cuts. So next year's class will likely just be:

Frank Baker
Art Fletcher
Clyde Milan
Joe Wood

Also, voter turnout has been down. Is it because of the string of weak years we've been having?

[jjpm74]

I have the same list and the same likely cuts. So next year's class will likely just be:

Frank Baker
Art Fletcher
Clyde Milan
Joe Wood

Also, voter turnout has been down. Is it because of the string of weak years we've been having?

There isn't much in the pipeline between now and 1933. Maybe it's time to impliment freakshow's idea of going bi-annual so we can get past the next few elections.

These are the only legitimate candidates for 1928 (not counting the red area candidates):

Jim Bagby
Donie Bush
George Cutshaw
Eddie Foster
Burt Shotton
Fred Toney
Tilly Walker

IMO, the 2 years should be combined into 1 and I can't see myself even throwing a token 1st ballot vote the way of anyone in the second group except for possibly Tilly Walker.

[Domenic]

I voted Doyle, Jennings, and Joss - Griffith and Leach get honorable mentions this year.

[jjpm74]

Freakshow provided some great information on Tommy Leach here:

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...postcount=2364

To paraphrase, Leach was the only player in the history of the game to log over 900 games at 3B and 900 games at CF. Leach was a truly unique player in that he not only played both postions, but played them better than anyone else on the league. He also put up good offensive numbers over the course of his career and was one of the most dominant players of his era.

We elected John Ward and Bob Caruthers as 2 position players. Why are we struggling with Leach when he was a better player than both of them?

[Domenic]

I feel that Leach was close, but missed by a comfortable margin. For the record, I would not have voted for John Ward, but I would have voted for Bob Caruthers, albeit with a bit of thought, due to the brevity of his career.

Tommy Leach was impressive, with his defensive prowess, but I find his bat to be a bit lacking. He spent most of his career in hitter's parks, and spent a great deal of time batting in the same line-up as Honus Wagner, Fred Clarke, and Ginger Beaumont. While it is not necessarily the best argument to make, Leach did not have much of a peak, and he was never really the best player on his team, let alone the league. A Hall of Famer does not necessarily have to rank that highly, but, as Leach was rather unimpressive in several areas, this further hurts him.

Still, Leach was close for me... but not close enough.

[DoubleX]

Tommy Leach was impressive, with his defensive prowess, but I find his bat to be a bit lacking. He spent most of his career in hitter's parks, and spent a great deal of time batting in the same line-up as Honus Wagner, Fred Clarke, and Ginger Beaumont. While it is not necessarily the best argument to make, Leach did not have much of a peak, and he was never really the best player on his team, let alone the league. A Hall of Famer does not necessarily have to rank that highly, but, as Leach was rather unimpressive in several areas, this further hurts him.

Still, Leach was close for me... but not close enough.

Leach is very close for me, and I think I'll put him in the "yes" column for next time, but my hesitancy to this point has been for the exact reasons you mentioned. Still, we've been terrible at electing 3Bmen (I say this realizing that Leach was also a CFer), we have just 2, easily the most underrepresented. The question for me is whether there were truly just not that many notable players at 3B or whether we're having trouble putting the position into perspective. I'm increasingly believing it's the latter, and I don't think this just in a 1925 perspective, I think 3B in general is a very hard position to estimate, and I believe it's reflected in how muddled Cooperstown's actual representation is. How much offense do we expect from 3B? More than from SS and 2B, but less than 1B - but where's the line? Then defensively, what do we expect? More than at 1B but likely less than at 2B and SS, but again, where's the line?

Anyway, I've come around to Leach because 1) 3B is grossly underrepresented and while he played there, he was about as good as anyone both offensively and defensively during the past 50 years; 2) He played a great defensive CF, and I think it's pretty notable for a player to exceed at two important defensive positions (albeit not quite 2B or SS); 3) He had good longevity and counting statistics for his career, especially considering his positions. Couple that with his great defense, and I think it might be just enough.

[jjpm74]

I feel that Leach was close, but missed by a comfortable margin. For the record, I would not have voted for John Ward, but I would have voted for Bob Caruthers, albeit with a bit of thought, due to the brevity of his career.

Tommy Leach was impressive, with his defensive prowess, but I find his bat to be a bit lacking. He spent most of his career in hitter's parks, and spent a great deal of time batting in the same line-up as Honus Wagner, Fred Clarke, and Ginger Beaumont. While it is not necessarily the best argument to make, Leach did not have much of a peak, and he was never really the best player on his team, let alone the league. A Hall of Famer does not necessarily have to rank that highly, but, as Leach was rather unimpressive in several areas, this further hurts him.

Still, Leach was close for me... but not close enough.


He was the second best on his team several times. It's kind of hard to be the best player on a team that has Honus Wagner. Wagner was arguably the best player in the history of the game. Being second to him is no small feat.

I think you're underrating him because of the fact that Wagner was on the team.

[Paul Wendt]

How much offense do we expect from 3B? More than from SS and 2B,
why more?
Lajoie, Collins, and now Hornsby are three of the best batsmen in this history of the game. Ross Barnes was the best fifty years ago. Fred Dunlap was one of the best for a few years in the 1880s. Larry Doyle was a very strong batter.

[DoubleX]

why more?
Lajoie, Collins, and now Hornsby are three of the best batsmen in this history of the game. Ross Barnes was the best fifty years ago. Fred Dunlap was one of the best for a few years in the 1880s. Larry Doyle was a very strong batter.

They are the rare examples. The average SS or 2Bmen is not counted on for much offense. If we are to hold those positions to the lofty offensive standards of the likes of Wagner and Lajoie, then we'd have no business elected someone like Herman Long, as the VC just did. Plus, either way it doesn't change the fact that 3B is very under represented. Even if SS and 2B are considered at least on par offensively with 3B, then why haven't we elected more 3Bmen?

[Paul Wendt]

Here on my virtual desktop I have the 1924 tally in my "XXballot" table.
Let me repeat the 1924 report and provide the same for 1925.

1924
196 votes for 22 players who returned to the ballot in 1925.
+25 votes for Sherry Magee, elected
+ 0 votes for "holdovers dropped from the ballot", Jeff Tesreau alone
----
221 votes for 23 players who earned a vote, or for 28 nominees on the ballot

There were 29 ballots cast including none blank.

=> 7.6 votes per ballot
7.9 votes per nominee
9.6 votes per nominee with at least one vote


1925
150 votes for 24 players who returned to the ballot in 1926.
+37 votes for Roger Bresnahan and Bobby Wallace, elected
+10 votes for "holdovers dropped from the ballot", Harry Davis (1), John McGraw (9), Terry Turner (0), Hooks Wiltse (0)
----
197 votes for 28 players who earned a vote, or for 33 nominees on the ballot

There were 24 ballots cast including none blank.

=> 8.2 votes per ballot
6.0 votes per nominee
7.0 votes per nominee with at least one vote

[philkid3]

why more?
Lajoie, Collins, and now Hornsby are three of the best batsmen in this history of the game. Ross Barnes was the best fifty years ago. Fred Dunlap was one of the best for a few years in the 1880s. Larry Doyle was a very strong batter.

The average EqAs at the three positions in 1920. . .

2B: .262
3B: .253
SS: .250

This is just one year, but at brief glanes over the last 15 years, second has become less important defensively and managers have been able to put bigger bats there. We've had years with second base in the 270s and third base in the 240s. I will probably be stricter on 2B going forward unless something changes, and I think we've been too strict on third basemen.

[Paul Wendt]

Evers, Konetchy, Doyle, and Kling
replace
Bresnahan, Wallace, McGraw, and Kauff.

Bill Bradley
Frank Chance
Gavy Cravath
Lave Cross
Larry Doyle
Johnny Evers
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Ed Konetchy
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Joe Tinker


--unless someone else seems to merit and need the first-year support that went to Kauff last year
. . . Under the circumstances --no time to write an appreciative blurb and no needy first year who is so interesting as Kauff-- that stands as my ballot. Ray Chapman is the most attractive possibility but I really should spend the time elsewhere. So let me close with

Four Cheers,
for careers
Ray Chapman, Duffy Lewis, Dode Paskert, Slim Sallee.

[Paul Wendt]

Last year we mentioned Ray Fisher,
longtime baseball coach at the University of Michigan (1921-1958). "During the 1940s he was hailed by Esquire Magazine as a close second to Jack Barry of Holy Cross as the top college baseball coach in the country." --BB-Ref Bullpen

This year we have Jack Coombs,
"After retiring from the majors, Jack Coombs became a successful college coach at Williams College, Rice University (1918), and Duke (1929-1952)." --BB-Ref Bullpen

[Domenic]

He was the second best on his team several times. It's kind of hard to be the best player on a team that has Honus Wagner. Wagner was arguably the best player in the history of the game. Being second to him is no small feat.

I think you're underrating him because of the fact that Wagner was on the team.

I think Clarke and Beaumont were better for the most part, albeit not for his entire run in Pittsburgh. That is, though, without adjusting for Leach's positional flexibility, which is a slight on my part.

[DoubleX]

Bill Bradley
Frank Chance
Gavy Cravath
Lave Cross
Larry Doyle
Johnny Evers
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Ed Konetchy
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Joe Tinker

Given many of the names on this ballot, I don't quite understand how there isn't room for someone like Addie Joss?

[philkid3]

Spending more time looking at the state of second base in the era, I think I'm going to no longer be voting for Miller Huggins, and he'll be the first person I have supported and then changed my mind.

I will also vote for Larry Doyle next year if he doesn't get in.

[jjpm74]

What's it going to take for this group to rally behind Hughie Jennings? He's once again below the 75% threshold. It's his 13th year on the ballot. He had a better peak than about a dozen players we have elected. He was also a significant manager. Why does he continue to struggle here?

I see that someone in particular voted for Chief Bender, Frank Chance, Ray Caldwell, Johnny Evers, Miller Huggins, Ed Konetchy, Joe Tinker but not Hughie Jennings or Larry Doyle. I'm very curious what makes Frank Chance and Joe Tinker better choices than Hughie Jennings and what makes Miller Huggins and Johnny Evers better choices at second base than Larry Doyle :confused:

[philkid3]

What?! Jennings dropped below?!

****! I was so excited thinking he might get in.


I'll have a lot to say about him next year I think. I'm going to be more upset if Jennings doesn't get in than anything else happening thus far.

[leecemark]

--Jennings and Doyle just need one more person to come along and vote yes to make it. Here's hoping:crossfingers:

[philkid3]

If Doyle doesn't get in here I'm adding him to my ballot next year, anyway, so there's that chance.

[henrich]

I'm not a Jennings fan, but if you include coaching as a criterion, which I have not previously, I could be swayed. I will listen on this guy before the next ballot, but he falls so far below my line-perhaps longevity?

[jjpm74]

Doyle
Leach

You state here that you support both Hughie Jennings and Frank Chance as player-managers:

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=361231&postcount=16

DoubleX already stated in an earlier thread that we can take managerial work into consideration for players during their playing career. Did something change where you no longer support Hughie Jennings and Frank Chance as player-managers?

[jjpm74]

I'm not a Jennings fan, but if you include coaching as a criterion, which I have not previously, I could be swayed. I will listen on this guy before the next ballot, but he falls so far below my line-perhaps longevity?

I listed some extra credit for consideration on 4 players here:

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1352350&postcount=2

I already know that player-managers were deemed acceptable at the beginning of the project. IMO, Jennings and Chance are both well over the line as player-managers.

Huggins is also very close. I'm giving Huggins the benefit of the doubt because he was statistically similar to Johnny Evers defensively, was one of the best second basemen of his generation and through 1926, he's done quite a bit as a manager. What might help in the case of Huggins is DoubleX defining the difference between player-manager and manager-player if there is a difference.

While Jennings' playing career was winding down when he started managing, he managed his team to three straight titles. Frank Chance's success was while he was still in his prime as a player so he has an even stronger case. Either way, both earned enough extra credit as managers to push their playing careers over the top. IMO, if we exclude them solely because we ignore one of their strong points, we are setting a dangerous precedent for future elections.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Chief Bender
Frank Chance
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Larry Doyle
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard

[jjpm74]

--Jennings and Doyle just need one more person to come along and vote yes to make it. Here's hoping:crossfingers:

Jennings has no shot. Someone voted against him. It'd now take 4 ballots all naming him for him to make it. Only Doyle has a shot this election and 1 more vote against and he's under the line as well.

[DoubleX]

I'm not a Jennings fan, but if you include coaching as a criterion, which I have not previously, I could be swayed. I will listen on this guy before the next ballot, but he falls so far below my line-perhaps longevity?

I would say his managerial career doesn't make much of a difference here because it started after his playing career was essentially over. We're looking at what occurred during playing career here, thus someone like Frank Chance can get credit, perhaps considerably, for his job as a player-manager, but much less for guys like Jennings and McGraw that became managers really after they were done playing. In Jennings case, he had only 5 ABs once he became manager, so I'd say his managerial career is very distinct from his playing career. That being said, I think he has just enough as a player to make it over the line. Then again, we have elected 9 shortstops, more than any other position (not counting pitcher) so perhaps, contrary to earlier concerns, we have already been to welcoming for the position.

[leecemark]

--I have campaigned for Jennings in the past and will continue to vote for him until his time expires. That said, if he slips to the VC that will not be so bad. There we can consider his total contributions and he is virtually a sure thing in that election.

[AG2004]

I'm going to adjust the win shares for the shorter seasons prior to 1904, as well as for the 1918 and 1919 seasons. Years from 1892 onward, as well as the 1890 PL and 1891 NL, will be adjusted to a 154-game schedule; years before 1890, as well as the 1890 NL and 1890-91 AA, will be adjusted to 140-game schedules.

Some of the top infielders on the board:

2B:

Larry Doyle

5 year peak: 27-25-28-29-21
Top WS: 33-29-28
CWS: 294

Johnny Evers

5 year peak: 20-22-28-27-22
CWS: 202
Top WS: 28-27-27


Miller Huggins

5 year peak: 20-27-22-19-17
CWS: 222
Top WS: 27-23-22

SS:

Hughie Jennings

5 year peak: 28-34-42-34-32
Top WS: 42-34-34
CWS: 239


Joe Tinker

5 year peak: 32-24-22-21-19
Top WS: 32-24-22
CWS: 262


3B:

Bill Bradley:

5 year peak: 21-29-32-28-22
Top WS: 32-29-28
CWS: 201


Lave Cross

5 year peak: 16-19-28-16-21
Top WS: 28-26-21
CWS: 301

Tommy Leach

5 year peak:17-19-29-31-26
Top WS: 31-30-29
CWS: 335




My ballot consists of:
Frank Chance
Larry Doyle
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard

[jalbright]

--I have campaigned for Jennings in the past and will continue to vote for him until his time expires. That said, if he slips to the VC that will not be so bad. There we can consider his total contributions and he is virtually a sure thing in that election.

Once we start considering his managing, Jennings definitely belongs. I happen to see him as short of the mark based on his play alone. My main problem is his career is short. Compared to other HOF SS, he's got less PA than any other HOF SS has AB (T Jackson has 6086 AB, Jennings 5639 PA) Even among shortstops before 1926, he's only 23rd--and guys like Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Tommy Corcoran, Monte Ward, Ed McKean, Jack Glasscock and Germany Smith all started at the same time or before Jennings did, so they can't be accused of benefitting from changes in the schedule. Also, Monte Cross started a year later and Bobby Wallace three years later. I'm more a career value guy than most, and that's a heavy burden for Jennings to overcome in my book.

[jjpm74]

Once we start considering his managing, Jennings definitely belongs. I happen to see him as short of the mark based on his play alone. My main problem is his career is short. Compared to other HOF SS, he's got less PA than any other HOF SS has AB (T Jackson has 6086 AB, Jennings 5639 PA) Even among shortstops before 1926, he's only 23rd--and guys like Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Tommy Corcoran, Monte Ward, Ed McKean, Jack Glasscock and Germany Smith all started at the same time or before Jennings did, so they can't be accused of benefitting from changes in the schedule. Also, Monte Cross started a year later and Bobby Wallace three years later. I'm more a career value guy than most, and that's a heavy burden for Jennings to overcome in my book.

The big problem we will be running into in the near future is figuring out which VC ballot these players belong on. Do John McGraw, Hughie Jennings, Miller Huggins belong on the VC players ballot or the VC contributors ballot?

On a separate note, do we really even need 2 separate ballots? Why can't we just declare that we can consider a player's entire career be it on or off the field including contributions when we get the the VC ballot and instead of having 2 rounds and 2 divisions, have 1 round where participants can list up to 15 players and/or contributors? It's not like we are going to have a logjam of eligible strong VC candidates. I'm honestly surprised we even selected a player this time around.

[leecemark]

--I like Jennings more as a player than a manager. McGraw more as a manager. Hughie definatley had a Hall of fame peak as a player, but I can see where a career oriented voters would pass on him. He is NOT a Hall of Fame manager IMO, but he is at least half a one. The combination is a winner with VC voters I'm pretty sure.
--McGraw's playing career is similar to Jenning's but not quite as good. He is right on the border and did make my ballot at times. By this point though he is obviously a Hall of Famer as a manager - with a strong argument for best manager ever. Thats the role I intend to vote for him in for the VC.
--That is the separation point for me. If a person's non-playing resume is stronger than their playing one then they are a contributor. If their playing career is the strongest part of the package they are a player. Still I'd be agreeable to having only one ballot if not for the fact we are going to elect guys who didn't play at all or whose playing career adds very little to their package.

[DoubleX]

I don't really understand how Ray Caldwell got a vote and will survive to next year's ballot.

[jjpm74]

I don't really understand how Ray Caldwell got a vote and will survive to next year's ballot.

Must've been that bolt of lightning that struck him back in '19 comin' back to haunt us. :rofl:

[Paul Wendt]

I would say his managerial career doesn't make much of a difference here because it started after his playing career was essentially over. We're looking at what occurred during playing career here, thus someone like Frank Chance can get credit, perhaps considerably, for his job as a player-manager, but much less for guys like Jennings and McGraw that became managers really after they were done playing.
During his regular playing career, John McGraw had 1899, which made his reputation and certainly would have won him Manager of the Year, and 1901-1902.

Hugh Jennings was the baseball coach at Cornell but in the majors he was merely an anticipated future field manager.