BBF VC Progressive HoF Contributors Election: 1925

[jjpm74]

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[jjpm74]

My ballot:

[jalbright]

Ballot #2

Adams
Cartwright
Chadwick
Commiskey
Creighton
Hulbert
Hanlon
Selee
Ward
Wright

I'm not closing the door on others, but I want to emphasize who I see as the leading candidates first. I might add someone close to election this time, though.

[DoubleX]

Are people aware that Pearce was elected as a player by the 1920 VC? He was the only pioneer-player elected, and the pioneer-players have since been integrated either into the regular player VC or the contributor VC. I suppose one could vote for him separately as a contributor as well (for his umpiring), but I think most of his contributions would be encompassed in his playing career.

[jalbright]

Are people aware that Pearce was elected as a player by the 1920 VC? He was the only pioneer-player elected, and the pioneer-players have since been integrated either into the regular player VC or the contributor VC. I suppose one could vote for him separately as a contributor as well (for his umpiring), but I think most of his contributions would be encompassed in his playing career.

I missed/forgot that given that one has to search out that information. Perhaps a notation (an asterisk, perhaps?) in the eligible list that a candidate has already been elected in another capacity?

[jjpm74]

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[DoubleX]

I could add him to our master list for the next election if you want, but IMO, he was more of a player who played during an early era in the sport than a contributor.

I'm confused. He is on your master list and so far both you and Jim have voted for him (Jim has since removed Peace). I'm questioning whether he should be on the contributors list given that he has already been elected as a player? If people think he did enough to merit induction as a contributor distinct from his his accomplishments as a player, that's fine by me, but I think his basis for election mostly rests on his playing career and we've honored that. I don't think he's like Spalding or Ward who have stronger arguments to be elected in each capacity.

I'm also a little concerned about Candy Cummings. There's a chance he could be elected this time as a both a player and a contributor. He's already guaranteed a spot on the final ballot of the VC Players election. Cummings may very well be worth honoring, but I don't think he should be honored twice. I personally think Cummings would be better suited being elected as a player. He did have a 120 ERA+ in 2150 innings after 1871 (plus his pre-1871 play) and he did popularize the curveball as a player. Beyond that, I don't see what he contributed to the game in a non-player capacity that would merit induction as a non-player. This is why I decided to include Cummings among other pioneer-players on the players VC while letting others, such as Jim Creighton and Al Reach go to the contributors VC.

I'm guessing this confusion probably stems from a lack of communication between the two of us. I probably should have better discussed what I was planning on doing with the former pioneer-players so we could be on the same page.

[jjpm74]

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[DoubleX]

Comiskey and Ferguson are on both. If we are only to allow a person to appear on one of the VC ballots, they're probably better suited for the contributors.

[jjpm74]

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[henrich]

Doc Adams
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Albert Goodwill Spalding
John Ward
Harry Wright

criterion here is a bit of a challenge. Listening to others' opinions on this subject should be enlightening to develop some sort of measuring stick for this honor.

[Paul Wendt]

Probably it would have been better to run these veterans committee elections in different years rather than simultaneously. Then every candidate would be simply a member or a non-member rather than a two-way candidate.

I'm also a little concerned about Candy Cummings. There's a chance he could be elected this time as a both a player and a contributor. He's already guaranteed a spot on the final ballot of the VC Players election. Cummings may very well be worth honoring, but I don't think he should be honored twice. I personally think Cummings would be better suited being elected as a player. He did have a 120 ERA+ in 2150 innings after 1871 (plus his pre-1871 play) and he did popularize the curveball as a player. Beyond that, I don't see what he contributed to the game in a non-player capacity that would merit induction as a non-player.
pre-1872

He taught the curve to pitchers at Yale (near home) and maybe Princeton (not far).

He was the International Association president in 1877. Maybe he worked in other off-field roles as a young man but they were not commitments, iirc. He wasn't truly retired as a pitcher but more or less "on call" iiuc. Like some umpires.

historical clarification:
Cummings was so-to-speak "on call" as a player and he returned to the field for part or full seasons,
like some regular umpires were on call as players.

But some people were on call as umpires too. And in 1877 when Cumming was IA president there were no staff umpires; in a sense all umpires were hired from people on call.

[DoubleX]

Probably it would have been better to run these veterans committee elections in different years rather than simultaneously. Then every candidate would be simply a member or a non-member rather than a two-way candidate.

That might be a good idea.

[Cowtipper]

Doc Adams
John T. Brush
Alex Cartwright
O. P. Caylor
Henry Chadwick
Charles Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Garry Herrmann
William Hulbert
Francis Richter
Ben Shibe
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
Harry Wright

[leecemark]

Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
William Hulbert
Harry Wright

[Paul Wendt]

There were 20 in my consideration set, less Cummings leaves 19.
Bold marks those who seem to me the strongest candidates, those I would now support in a "vote for four", although I would deliberate longer if this were a vote for four.


Doc Adams
Frank C. Bancroft
Alex Cartwright
O.P. Caylor
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Frank Osborn
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
John Ward
Harry Wright


I am not closing the door with all of these men on the inside. If/when I check back in the next few days I will read any comment, and I will try to trim this list within several days or not at all, ie not in the last few days. Wednesday is a good target.

This is my prelim ballot from a few days ago but who studied that one?
This is also 2/3 of the master ballot so it may be useful or must be more comprehensible to post the shorter list, the other 1/3 of the master ballot. Perhaps there is a pattern.

Cap Anson
John T. Brush
Morgan Bulkeley
Charlie H. Byrne
Garry Herrmann
A.G. Mills
Arthur Soden
Harry Stevens
Chris von der Ahe

[philkid3]

Doc Adams
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Frank Selee
Al Spalding
John Ward
Harry Wright

Okay, contributors are hard for me, but I feel comfortable with this ballot at this point.

[BlueBlood]

Doc Adams
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Frank Selee
Harry Wright

I think this is a fair compromise between a larger ballot & a less inclusive one.

[DoubleX]

Doc Adams
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Frank Selee
Al Spalding
Al Spink
Harry Wright

[jjpm74]

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[dgarza]

Doc Adams
Cap Anson
Morgan Bulkeley
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
A.G. Mills
Dickey Pearce
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
Harry Wright

[jjpm74]

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[PVNICK]

Doc Adams
Mogan Bulkeley
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
A.G. Mills
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Arthur Soden
Alfred Spink
John Ward
Harry Wright

I see Pearce has been removed so this is my ballot from teh other thread minus Pearce.

[BlueBlood]

So, it really just comes down to Selee. He's at eight votes once Paul finalizes his ballot which means he would need AG2004's vote in order to reach 9 of 12 and be elected.

Inaugural list:

Doc Adams
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Frank Selee
Harry Wright

Glad we weren't too stingy, nor did we go overboard.

Edit: AG voted for Selee last time, so we can practically call it. The above list is our complete set of inductees once he chimes in and Mr. Wendt edits down his list.

[jjpm74]

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[BlueBlood]

Ah. I didn't know you had included Paul's totals with those numbers. Then it's a wrap, I guess. :dance

[Paul Wendt]

Hello, All
I have a new research job since late September. So I am not keeping up as usual during the summer (way too many hours on some days).(chagrin)
I have not kept up the Also-Rans as I anticipated (announce winners after 10 voters and 48 hours) and I have missed the BBFHOF election for the first time since joining last Dec 1.

On Friday we finally got "all data" ha-ha and suddenly there is infinitely much to do, instead of a large finite much, with one deadline before Thanksgiving.

I was operating on the assumption that Paul wouldn't want to remove any contributor he supported who was close.
Correct, of course. I felt comfortable posting my extra-large prelim ballot. Indeed, I expect that in five years I will again vote for all four candidates who reaped 6 or 7 votes this time.

Paul

[AG2004]

My ballot:

Doc Adams
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Bob Ferguson
William Hulbert
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Albert Goodwill Spalding

[jjpm74]

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