BBF VC Progressive HoF Contributors Election: 1925 Preliminary

[jjpm74]

Let's see how this goes. Here is the list of VC Contributors for the 1925 election. This is open to anyone on the VC players committee unless they state that they do not want to participate in this aspect of the Progressive project, plus the first 2 people who are not participating in that end of this project who express an interest in the VC Contributors end of the Progressive HoF Project.

Note: Contributors and pioneers will only be added if a participant or outsider suggests them to the master ballot. The person suggesting a contributor does not need to be a participant in the project.

Contributors:

Doc Adams
Cap Anson
Frank C. Bancroft
John T. Brush
Morgan Bulkeley
Charlie H. Byrne
Alex Cartwright
O.P. Caylor
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Candy Cummings
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Garry Herrmann
A.G. Mills
Frank Osborn
Dickey Pearce
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Arthur Soden
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
Harry Stevens
Chris von der Ahe
John Ward
Harry Wright

If there is someone left off, please make a case for them and they will be added within the next 5 days. If not, please choose 15 contributors for the final ballot. Please note that I will not be adding new contributors every 5 years. I will leave it up to the participants to nominate new contributors each election.

Anyone appearing on 50% of the preliminary ballots will appear on the final ballot. If 9 participants vote yes for a particular candidate, that candidate is elected.

If anyone would like to join this part of the project who is not part of the VC Players end of the project, please speak up. AFAIK, there are at least 2 slots open.

[leecemark]

--I thought the pioneers was a one time thing for the first VC election and we are considering all candiates strictly as contributors now?

[leecemark]

Doc Adams
Frank Bancroft
Alex Cartwright
O.P. Caylor
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Candy Cummings
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Harry Wright

[jjpm74]

--I thought the pioneers was a one time thing for the first VC election and we are considering all candiates strictly as contributors now?

I changed it accordingly.

[jjpm74]

Doc Adams
Frank C. Bancroft
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Candy Cummings
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
A.G. Mills
Al Reach
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

1. Doc Adams.
2. Frank C. Bancroft
3. Alex Cartwright
4. Henry Chadwick
5. Charlie Comiskey
6. Jim Creighton
7. William Hulbert
8. Ned Hanlon
9. Dickey Pearce
10. Al Reach
11. Francis Richter
12. Frank Selee
13. Ben Shibe
14. Alfred H. Spink
15. Harry Wright

[DoubleX]

Since we are at least considering players we've already elected to acknowledge their non-playing contributions, does John Ward deserve to at least appear on the preliminary ballot?

[jjpm74]

Since we are at least considering players we've already elected to acknowledge their non-playing contributions, does John Ward deserve to at least appear on the preliminary ballot?

Any contributor can be added to the preliminary ballot by request. I just added his name to the master list.

[jjpm74]

So far we only have 3 preliminary ballots. This isn't looking good.

[DoubleX]

So far we only have 3 preliminary ballots. This isn't looking good.

I don't know if we need two rounds of voting for contributors. It's tough to get everyone together. I decided on two rounds with the players because the players list is much larger and will grow much faster than the contributors list, but here I think one round is probably sufficient.

[jjpm74]

I don't know if we need two rounds of voting for contributors. It's tough to get everyone together. I decided on two rounds with the players because the players list is much larger and will grow much faster than the contributors list, but here I think one round is probably sufficient.

It'd be helpful if we at least knew who was on the contributor committee. This is what I have so far:

Leecemark
Jalbright
JJPM74
Double X
dgarza
Blueblood
Paul Wendt
Philkid3?
AG2004

[DoubleX]

Try sending out a PM?

[philkid3]

So am I voting for 15 or who I think belongs?

[jjpm74]

So am I voting for 15 or who I think belongs?

For this first go around, let's stick with the preliminary ballot then vote approach. If we get to the 1925 regular ballot and haven't gotten a good turnout, we can always scrap it.

[jjpm74]

Try sending out a PM?

I just did, but I'm not a moderator here so I had to open 3 windows and break up the sending list to do so. I'd rather not communicate via PM for this project in the future.

[jalbright]

Due to the PM, I'll note that I've already submitted my 15 for the preliminary vote.

[BlueBlood]

The 1920 process didn't require us to list a 15 name minimum. I don't mind doing it this way, but if you're going for consistency from one election to the next...

Doc Adams
Frank Bancroft
John T Brush
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Candy Cummings
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Harry Wright

[Paul Wendt]

The 1920 election was abandoned with official results null. Right?

Doc Adams
Frank C. Bancroft
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
Ned Hanlon
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
John Ward
Harry Wright

At least four more in the consideration set:

Cartwright
Caylor
Creighton
Cummings

I considered relegating Chadwick and Comiskey to mere Consideration, because their surnames also being with 'C'. But then I would have only Stevens to add, and that at a stretch.

Regarding Harry M. Stevens, tell me more before 1930. It isn't enough for me that he established the Harry M. Stevens Company.

[dgarza]

:noidea
So what's the difference between the 1920 election and this one?
Did the 1920 results carry over?

[Paul Wendt]

If there is someone left off, please make a case for them and they will be added within the next 5 days. If not, please choose 15 contributors for the final ballot.
That is not a 15-vote minimum, it is 15 precisely. Right?

Anyone appearing on 50% of the preliminary ballots will appear on the final ballot. If 9 participants vote yes for a particular candidate, that candidate is elected.
9 votes on the final ballot, right?
There is no way to be elected directly off prelim ballots, right?

[jjpm74]

:noidea
So what's the difference between the 1920 election and this one?
Did the 1920 results carry over?

In the 1920 election, quorum was 12 cast ballots. We only had 10 cast ballots so no quorum was reached. From here forward, the only requirement for quorum is for 9 ballots to be cast (the minimum number of votes required for election).

So far, we have 1 confirmed no via PM so we have at least 1 open slot for anyone interested. (Henrich? Anyone else?)

We also don't need to do two rounds of voting if the consensus is that we only need 1 round of voting.

Regarding adding players to the ballot, I will not be adding anyone on my own since this is far removed from my area of knowledge. Only contributors named by someone will be added.

[jjpm74]

That is not a 15-vote minimum, it is 15 precisely. Right?

This is also open to discussion. What's the consensus here if we do go with 2 rounds of voting?

[jjpm74]

9 votes on the final ballot, right?
There is no way to be elected directly off prelim ballots, right?

Correct.....

[dgarza]

Doc Adams
Cap Anson
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Comiskey
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
A.G. Mills
Dickey Pearce
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
Harry Wright

[AG2004]

I'd prefer one round of voting.

Also, could we add the late Frank Osborn to the candidate list? While several different designers were involved in the building of ballparks in 1909 and 1910, Osborn's firm emerged as the leader in the field, and has built or renovated over half the ballparks now in use in the major leagues, as well as some new parks in the high minors. I understand Ruppert personally asked Osborn to design his new ballpark in the Bronx.

[jjpm74]

I'd prefer one round of voting.

Also, could we add the late Frank Osborn to the candidate list? While several different designers were involved in the building of ballparks in 1909 and 1910, Osborn's firm emerged as the leader in the field, and has built or renovated over half the ballparks now in use in the major leagues, as well as some new parks in the high minors. I understand Ruppert personally asked Osborn to design his new ballpark in the Bronx.

Noted and added.

[Paul Wendt]

I'd prefer one round of voting.

I agree with both. One round of final voting plus whatever we are doing now. Preliminary voting may be a good way to get people to look at the list seriously and to make suggestions, which they otherwise postpone and belatedly omit.
Also, could we add the late Frank Osborn to the candidate list? While several different designers were involved in the building of ballparks in 1909 and 1910, Osborn's firm emerged as the leader in the field, and has built or renovated over half the ballparks now in use in the major leagues, as well as some new parks in the high minors. I understand Ruppert personally asked Osborn to design his new ballpark in the Bronx.
Because AG has recently stumped for Osborn elsewhere, I thought of him here this week. But is he old enough now, or retired?

Anyway, what do we do now, those of us who have posted preliminary ballots? In fact some will do nothing, but by design of the system should we consider Osborn and then either edit or decline to edit the prelim? If so, is there a deadline?
There are some troubling logistics, which I have in mind when I say that we need something like this rather than simply one round of voting.

[jjpm74]

Since most people who have weighed in have expressed an interest in 1 round of voting instead of two, how does this sound?

--Preliminary ballot discussion ends Tuesday November 4 and voting commences.

--Once a contributor is permanently added to the ballot, they stay eligible and do not fall off the ballot without some discussion

--Participants cast their votes between November 4 and 11th (12 midnight EST).

--Any contributor named on 9 ballots is elected. We will stick with a set number of votes yes rather than a percentage.

--Participants can vote for a maximum of 20 contributors in the first election with a smaller TBD maximum set for future elections

We have these people participating so far:

Leecemark
Jalbright
JJPM74
Double X
dgarza
Blueblood
Paul Wendt
Philkid3?
AG2004
henrich
cowtipper

Philkid3 is unconfirmed. We need at least 3 and ideally somewhere between 3-6 other people involved in this end of the project for this to work.

If anyone is interested, in joining, please post to this thread. Don't PM me. I have no Internet access at home and won't be back up and running until Saturday or Sunday and would rather not go back to the library again to access this.

[Cowtipper]

Since most people who have weighed in have expressed an interest in 1 round of voting instead of two, how does this sound?

--Preliminary ballot discussion ends Tuesday November 4 and voting commences.

--Once a contributor is permanently added to the ballot, they stay eligible and do not fall off the ballot without some discussion

--Participants cast their votes between November 4 and 11th (12 midnight EST).

--Any contributor named on 9 ballots is elected. We will stick with a set number of votes yes rather than a percentage.

--Participants can vote for a maximum of 20 contributors in the first election with a smaller TBD maximum set for future elections

We have these people participating so far:

Leecemark
Jalbright
JJPM74
Double X
dgarza
Blueblood
Paul Wendt
Philkid3?
AG2004
henrich

Philkid3 is unconfirmed. We need at least 3 and ideally somewhere between 3-6 other people involved in this end of the project for this to work.

If anyone is interested, in joining, please post to this thread. Don't PM me. I have no Internet access at home and won't be back up and running until Saturday or Sunday and would rather not go back to the library again to access this.
I'm just posting here to say that I accept your invitation to participate in this project.

[AG2004]

Because AG has recently stumped for Osborn elsewhere, I thought of him here this week. But is he old enough now, or retired?



Frank C. Osborn died in 1922.

[OOC - See http://www.rpi.edu/about/hof/osborn.html for information. Kenneth H. Osborn will turn 60 in 1946.]

Cummings edged out Osborn for the fifteenth slot on my preliminary ballot. Yankee Stadium is a very impressive edifice, but will the designs stand the test of time? Looking back over the last half-century, it's easy to see that inventing the curveball was an important innovation.

Will we be saying the same things about these new ballparks during the 1960s? They might incorporate lighting by then. Maybe they will figure out how to roof the fields so that the sport can be played in December and January, and people will be praising those designs. Perhaps a twentieth-century Filippo Brunelleschi will arrive, and turn his attention to stadium engineering as Frank Osborn did; if so, the dome will be hailed far and wide as the ideal ballpark for centuries afterward.

Here's my preliminary list of fifteen, in alphabetical order.

Doc Adams
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charles Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Candy Cummings
Bob Ferguson
William Hulbert
Dickey Pearce
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Frank Selee
Ben Shibe
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

I still hold that Bancroft's role in spreading base ball in the Caribbean has been greatly exaggerated and, that even if it weren't, the region's contribution to the game has thus far been too limited to warrant consideration. As for Hanlon, I still have doubts about how good his teams of the 1890s would have been if (a) syndicate ownership had been banned, and (b) they had been forced to play clean. That keeps him out of the top fifteen for now.

[PVNICK]

Doc Adams
Mogan Bulkeley
Alex Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
William Hulbert
Bob Ferguson
A.G. Mills
Dickey Pearce
Al Reach
Francis Richter
Arthur Soden
Alfred Spink
John Ward
Harry Wright

[jjpm74]

Assuming philkid3 is in, we now have a group of 12 participating in this end of the project:

Leecemark
Jalbright
JJPM74
Double X
dgarza
Blueblood
Paul Wendt
Philkid3
AG2004
henrich
cowtipper
pvnick

Preliminary discussion will continue until Tuesday then we'll have a week to submit ballots. Ballots can list as many as 20 names for this first election. Any contributor that receives a minimum of 9 votes is elected. This will hold true whether we have 9 ballots cast or 15 (if we go up to a committee of 15).

[DoubleX]

Are we actually voting now are just sorting out logistics? If it hasn't been decided, I still much prefer one round of voting here.

[jjpm74]

Are we actually voting now are just sorting out logistics? If it hasn't been decided, I still much prefer one round of voting here.

We're going with 1 round of voting that will commence on Tuesday and run for 1 week. Unless we're finished ironing out the main ballot. Participants can vote for anyone who appears on the master list on the first page.

[philkid3]

Sorry I didn't get a preliminary list together.

[Cowtipper]

Doc Adams
John T. Brush
Alex Cartwright
O. P. Caylor
Henry Chadwick
Charles Comiskey
Jim Creighton
Garry Herrmann
William Hulbert
Dickey Pearce
Francis Richter
Ben Shibe
Albert Goodwill Spalding
Alfred H. Spink
Harry Wright

When I vote for contributors, I vote for the ones who I believe contributed to baseball as a whole. That's why I'd rather not vote for managers, because they contributed a lot to single teams, but not to baseball as a whole.

[PVNICK]

I specifically didn't vote for the managers either for the same general reason.

[Paul Wendt]

jjpm closed the initial article in this thread:
If there is someone left off [the master ballot], please make a case for them and they will be added within the next 5 days.
That would be sometime November 1 but I doubt that it is intended to be in effect now. Just what is in effect now, I admit that I don't know.
If not, please choose 15 contributors for the final ballot. . . .
Anyone appearing on 50% of the preliminary ballots will appear on the final ballot.
Are we still doing that, naming precisely 15 each? (I would call that voting, round one.) AG2004 believes we are still doing that, and he has complied, just above. (He prefers one round of voting after that, which I also prefer but I call the process two rounds of voting.)

"preliminary ballots" - does that mean our lists of 15, posted in this thread?

Part of the communications problem, I believe, is that we have different purposes. We readers are looking for what to do whereas jjpm74 really considers himself caretaker of this part of the project and he is looking to involve us in deciding what to do.:hp
Please note that I will not be adding new contributors every 5 years. I will leave it up to the participants to nominate new contributors each election.
That is fine by me, the voting committee is the nominating committee (same as Cooperstown's new veterans election for executives & pioneers).

[jjpm74]

Part of the communications problem, I believe, is that we have different purposes. We readers are looking for what to do whereas jjpm74 really considers himself caretaker of this part of the project and he is looking to involve us in deciding what to do.:hp


I'll make it easy and start a new thread. :-)