BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1924

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1924 Guide
There are 28 candidates on the 1924 ballot – 22 holdovers and 6 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1919 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (6)
Red Ames
Jack Barry
Larry Cheney
Sherry Magee
Red Smith
Terry Turner

Holdovers (22)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support
Chief Bender 3rd 42.31% 42.31% (1923)
Bill Bradley 5th 15.38% 16.13% (1921)
Roger Bresnahan 5th 65.38% 65.38% (1920, 1923)
Frank Chance 6th 61.54% 65.38% (1920)
Lave Cross 13th 30.77% 38.46% (1920)
Harry Davis 3rd 11.54% 11.54% (1923)
Mike Donlin 6th 11.54% 25.93% (1919)
Clark Griffith 10th 46.15% 52.00% (1917)
Miller Huggins 4th 11.54% 16.23% (1921)
Hughie Jennings 11th 69.23% 69.23% (1923)
Fielder Jones 12th 15.38% 19.23% (1920)
Addie Joss 10th 65.38% 74.07% (1919)
Johnny Kling 7th 19.23% 26.92% (1920)
Tommy Leach 3rd 34.62% 34.62% (1923)
John McGraw 14th 34.62% 47.83% (1912)
Ed Reulbach 3rd 7.69% 10.71% (1922)
Jimmy Sheckard 7th 34.62% 42.31% (1920)
Jeff Tesreau 2nd 3.85% 3.85% (1923)
Roy Thomas 9th 15.38% 25.00% (1917)
Joe Tinker 4th 19.23% 22.58% (1921)
Bobby Wallace 2nd 61.54% 61.54% (1923)
Hooks Wiltse 5th 7.69% 7.69% (1923)

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (1)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support
Herman Long Eligibility Expired 15 56.52% (1913)

Last Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
John McGraw 47.83% (1912)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
Player 1920 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Hughie Jennings 69.23% 9
Roger Bresnahan 65.38% 4
Addie Joss 65.38% 9
Frank Chance 61.54% 5
Bobby Wallace 61.54% 1

Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919) 2
Hardy Richardson* 69.57% (1912) 3 1915
Hughie Jennings 69.23% (1923) 1
Jimmy Ryan 67.86% (1922) 1 1922

* = Elected by Veterans Committee


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (59)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Living – Age 70 53
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Living – Age 66 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 48 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 56 42
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 56 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 54 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Living – Age 67 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 44 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 54 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 54 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 58 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 48 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 67 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 67 52
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 58 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Living – Age 69 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 67 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 53 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 50 47
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Living – Age 44 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Living – Age 53 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 65 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Living – Age 75 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 64 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 55 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Living – Age 49 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 69 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 53 30
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Living - Age 82 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 68 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 58 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 50 48
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 43 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Living – Age 64 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 65 61
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 77 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 48 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 77 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 57 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (4): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (5): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner, Joe Start
Second Base (5): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (2): Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (7): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce, John Ward, Honus Wagner, George Wright
Left Field (6): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (7): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (18): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh
1923 (0):

Players Elected by Primary Decade
1870s (9): Ross Barnes, Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Deacon White, George Wright
1880s (21): Cap Anson, Charlie Bennett, Dan Brouthers, Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, Pud Galvin, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Paul Hines, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Tony Mullane, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn, Hardy Richardson, Harry Stovey, John Ward, Mickey Welch
1890s (14): Jake Beckley, Jesse Burkett, Cupid Childs, Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Billy Hamilton, Joe Kelley, Bid McPhee, Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren
1900s (15): Mordecai Brown, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Sam Crawford, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Eddie Plank, Rube Waddell , Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh, Vic Willis, Cy Young


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 27
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 17
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 84.15%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years: 5
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.92 Years
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 7
- Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss – 74.07% (1919)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912, 1923)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.26
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 31 (1921)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 24.87
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 11
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters), Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) - 5
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 15.58 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 48.69
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 11
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 41
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Joe Start – Age 82
- Deceased in Past Year:

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28
1923: 25

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697), 1920 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)
1923 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257)

[jjpm74]

My Ballot:

Roger Bresnahan (Best catcher of the era)
Frank Chance (best player and manager of the best dynasty in baseball)
Lave Cross (To date one of the best hitters of all time)
Hughie Jennings (amazing short stop with a lot of extra credit)
Addie Joss (Great peak pitcher with durability issues)
Johnny Kling (most durable catcher of the era)
Tommy Leach (great player with a lot of defensive value)
Sherry Magee (no brainer)
Terry Turner (gets extra credit for inventing a special kind of slide)
Bobby Wallace (great SS)

Dropped from my ballot (I'd gladly readd any of them if persuaded to do so):

Bill Bradley
Harry Davis
Miller Huggins
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas

I'd also be willing to consider any of the holdovers as I have the space on my ballot for them, but need to hear a compelling argument in favor of them.

[DoubleX]

I'm going to take a stab at making arguments for some players because I'd hate to see us not elect someone for the second year in a row (and possibly longer given that the biggest new name in the next two years is Larry Doyle):

Roger Bresnahan: He made progress last year, but he should be a no-brainer at this point. He's easily the best catcher in the last 30+ years, and is really the prototype for the modern catcher. He was also an offensive force at catcher, with an impressive 126 career OPS+, at a time when almost all catchers struggled to get close to a league average 100 for a season, let alone a career. Moreover, the equipment innovations he introduced have become commonplace greatly enhanced a catcher's durability and productivity. Whenever we think of what a modern catcher looks like, garbed in his armor, we can thank Bresnahan for creating that image.

Frank Chance: His career was relatively short, but he certainly showed he can play. During his 6 year peak, it was hard to argue that he wasn't the best 1Bman in the game, and by a considerable margin over that period. He probably would have been even more productive if he hadn't been busy simultaneously managing the first dynasty of this Century and the World Series era. He may very well be the finest player/manager the game has seen, and that should be credited here.

Addie Joss: Joss has twice come within 1% of election. Given that he's come so close, it would be a shame if he's not elected. Admittedly, he had some issues with innings, but he wasn't a slouch, and was able to complete an amazing 90% of his starts (about 8% more than first ballot electee Iron Joe McGinnity). Joss' 142 ERA+ over 9 seasons makes for a very impressive peak. I have a feeling that some would be more comfortable with Joss if he had a few filler seasons added to his career, even if they were mediocre. But that doesn't make sense to me, because we'd still be judging him on his peak. The reason he doesn't have those filler seasons is that he abruptly died and that should not be held against him, IMO. Any way you slice it, he has a nice peak, so why would it matter if he lived to pitch 2 or 3 mediocre seasons?

Hughie Jennings: In electing OFers like Hugh Duffy and George Van Haltren, how can we not extend our standards for IFers as well? He had a tremendous 5 year peak which ranks among the very best we've seen from a middle IFer.

Sherry Magee: I'm not going to spend much time on Magee at this point given that this is his first year, but given our OF standards, Magee should be a no-brainer, as he is easily better than a number of our OF electees.

Bobby Wallace: Good initial year for Wallace, but again, if Hugh Duffy and George Van Haltren are in, I cannot understand why our standards would not encompass Wallace. His longevity and consistency at perhaps the most important defensive position, are both rare and impressive. He might not be in Wagner's class, but a 105 OPS+ in 9600+ plate appearances from a surehanded SS, is pretty impressive and worthy of a HoF honor.

[Paul Wendt]

To the masses who read and vote early, then never return, check out coverage of Tommy Leach "last year" including today.

(today) (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1343215&postcount=49)
(today) (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257&page=3)
Tommy Leach (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84257) #15-16, 18-19, 21

[Paul Wendt]

Lave Cross (To date one of the best hitters of all time)
:rolleyes:
Johnny Kling (most durable catcher of the era)
George Gibson, who collected a goose egg last year?
Tommy Leach (great player with a lot of defensive value)
Sherry Magee (no brainer)
yes, yes
Terry Turner (gets extra credit for inventing a special kind of slide)
?
Dropped from my ballot (I'd gladly readd any of them if persuaded to do so): [list of five]
That standard is too high for me but I'll quietly continue voting for some of them.

Here is a non-compelling reason to vote for Miller Huggins:
keep him on the ballot until Johnny Evers gets here.
(I haven't voted for him yet but I will now because he is barely on the ballot.)


tidbit:
I learned today that the honorable Bill Bradley served as manager for a year, Brooklyn in the Federal League 1914. He was succeeded by the dishonorable Lee Magee.

Bradley was well done as a major league player although he played in a few games. Fielder Jones also returned to the bench in the majors in the Federal League, when he replaced Morde Brown as manager in St Louis (and occasional player). Bradley & Co. picked up Brown to finish the season in Brooklyn.

[Paul Wendt]

Bobby Wallace: Good initial year for Wallace, but again, if Hugh Duffy and George Van Haltren are in, I cannot understand why our standards would not encompass Wallace. His longevity and consistency at perhaps the most important defensive position, are both rare and impressive. He might not be in Wagner's class, but a 105 OPS+ in 9600+ plate appearances from a surehanded SS, is pretty impressive and worthy of a HoF honor.
Here may be a better credential for many voters:
Bobby Wallace, OPS+ 110 in 7300 plate appearances through 1910, age 36. That endpoint lops off one full-time season as a miserable batter and he "played forever", through WWI, with the chief role of coach iirc.

Wallace was a good major league pitcher, too, for two seasons as the sidekick-kick of Cy Young and his sidekick Nig Cuppy. Or is that side-sidekick? Either way, contrast young George Van Haltren, a mediocre pitcher in about 600 v Wallace's 400 innings.
The very strong, albeit lopsided 1895 Cleveland Spiders (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLV/1895.shtml)
The very strong, albeit even more lopsided 1896 Cleveland Spiders (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLV/1896.shtml)

Regarding consistency and standards, I concur that it would be inconsistent and incomprehensible to bypass Wallace. He was a more valuable player than GVH, I agree, and he was similar to our honored shortstop Jack Glasscock.


Hugh Jennings is another matter because we haven't yet elected a anyone much like him. Even by consideration delayed until 1871, Ross Barnes was both a bright star for a longer timespan and a productive player for a longer timespan than Jennings. And from 1866 Barnes played for the leading club in Rockford IL, a major team by 1868 and one of the fully professional teams in 1870.

Jennings was much more loudly and widely acclaimed than Wallace --among perhaps of the dozens we have now honored. Fans and writers loved the freckled redhead and latched upon him as both one of the brainiest and one of the great leaders, as well as simply one of the best ballplayers.

Jennings was one officer of the players union during its one important season, and thus one leader of the players for that organization was led by its officers (Chief Zimmer with sidekicks Jennings, Clark Griffith, and Bill Clarke). Jennings also coached full season at Cornell. That was unusual, as most collegiate ballclubs were able to hire major league players only for January to March or early April at latest. Although he was still in great demand as a player-leader and player-entertainer, ie drawing card, Hughie signed a long-term contract to coach full-season and he enrolled in the law school. From that position of bargaining strength he was able to play the latter four months of the major league season, for a while.
(? enrolled 1900/1901 to 1902/1903?)


Do we have a reader of this biography? If so, what kind of biography is it? And how well done?
* Jack Smiles: "Ee-Yah": The Life and Times of Hughie Jennings, Baseball Hall of Famer, McFarland, Jefferson, NC, 2005.

I have read this one, a combination biography of Keeler and of the old Orioles.
* Burt Solomon, "Hit 'Em Where They Ain't": The Fabled Life and Ultimely Death of the Original Baltimore Orioles, the Team that Gave Birth to Modern Baseball (1999) (http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.cfm?tab=6&pid=479538)
Hit 'Em is serious but not scholarly. In my opinion it works and Keeler would not carry a straight biography, either. (He was less important a pro ballplayer, declined opportunities to captain and maybe even manage in New York or Brooklyn, and died young.)

The Baltimore Orioles club would carry a full-length scholarly treatment, I believe. So would one of its managers, Ned Hanlon.

[Cowtipper]

My ballot:

Bender
Bresnahan
Cross
Donlin
Griffith
Joss
Magee
Reulbach
Wallace

[philkid3]

Easy ballot. Magee goes on, no one else really gets much consideration. Only Long is lost from my last ballot.

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Hughie Jennings
Miller Huggins
Tommy Leach
Sherry Magee
Jimmy Sheckard
Joe Tinker
Bobby Wallace

[jalbright]

Leach
Magee
Wallace

[henrich]

Chief Bender
Reulbach
Harry Davis
Lave Cross
Sherry Magee
Tommy Leach

[DoubleX]

Anyone care to offer some counter arguments to Bresnahan and Wallace?

[Cowtipper]

When we are voting, do you want us just to consider their playing careers or their careers in baseball as a whole (like in the case of Jennings, McGraw, etc)?

[DoubleX]

When we are voting, do you want us just to consider their playing careers or their careers in baseball as a whole (like in the case of Jennings, McGraw, etc)?

What they accomplished while playing. For example, Frank Chance being a manager of a dynastic team while simultaneously being a star player, is something to consider. However, in the cases of McGraw and Jennings, they really didn't have success as managers until their playing careers were essentially over, so they wouldn't get much of a boost for being a player/manager.

[gman5431]

Huggins, Jennings, McGraw.

G Man

[KCGHOST]

Bresnahan
Griffith
Joss
MaGee
McGraw
Wallace

[Brooklyn]

Maggie, Joss

[Freakshow]

No one was elected. Long expired. Taking his place is newbie Magee.

Bresnahan
Chance
L. Cross
Griffith
Jennings
F. Jones
Joss
Kling
Leach
S. Magee
McGraw
Sheckard
Thomas
Tinker
Wallace

[BlueBlood]

1. Bender, P
2. Bresnahan, C
3. Jennings, SS
4. Joss, P
5. Magee, LF
6. Wallace, SS

Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

Eleven (1914 onward) - Hughie Jennings
Ten (1915 onward) - Addie Joss
Five (1920 onward) - Roger Bresnahan
Three (1922 onward) - Chief Bender
Two (1923) - Bobby Wallace
One (1924) - Sherry Magee

[dgarza]

Chief Bender
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Mike Donlin
Hugh Jennings
Addie Joss
Sherry Magee
John McGraw
Joe Tinker
Bobby Wallace

1. Sherry Magee
2. Addie Joss
3. Chief Bender
4. Mike Donlin
5. John McGraw
6. Hugh Jennings
7. Bobby Wallace
8. Roger Bresnahan
9. Joe Tinker
10. Frank Chance

[philkid3]

So. Since it seems pretty obvious it's gonna be McGee or no one, who do we have next year?

[jjpm74]

So. Since it seems pretty obvious it's gonna be McGee or no one, who do we have next year?

Not much:

Ray Chapman
Jack Coombs
Gavvy Cravath
Larry Doyle
Ray Fisher (Is he eligible? His banishment doesn't seem just.)
Claude Hendrix
Buck Herzog
Benny Kauff
Lefty Leifield
Fred Luderus
George McBride
Carl Weilman

Looking at our current voting trends, Cravath will probably muster just enough votes to linger on the ballot for the next 10-15 years, Larry Doyle will hover around 40-50% and may spike as high as 60% around the 12 year mark, and Ray Champan and Ray Fisher may get a tocken courtesy vote thrown their way once or twice. Otherwise, it's looking pretty gloomy.

Edit, things don't look particularly interesting in 1926-1931 either. Here are the prospects of which, only Baker stands a chance of getting enough votes to get elected:

1926--Johnny Evers (age rule), Hippo Vaughn, Duffy Lewis
1927--Frank Baker, Joe Wood
1928--No One!
1929--Jake Daubert, Del Ennis
1930--Harry Hooper, Bobby Veach
1931--Fred Merkle, Ross Youngs, Wilbur Cooper, Hooks Dauss

[philkid3]

What is the opinion on Cravath from our voters?

[jjpm74]

What is the opinion on Cravath from our voters?

Cravath is a tough case. AG2004 does a great job looking at the complete picture in these 2 posts:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1091492&postcount=108

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1091500&postcount=109

[DoubleX]

With lean years ahead, it could be a time to build support for some of the holdovers. I personally cannot see how Roger Bresnahan and Bobby Wallace do not fit well within the standards we've set, and I hope they are aided by the weak competition of the next few years.

Larry Doyle is someone else that I foresee struggling to get over that final hump, but I feel he also fits well within our standards.

[Paul Wendt]

. . .
Ray Fisher (Is he eligible? His banishment doesn't seem just.)
Claude Hendrix [also banished]
Buck Herzog
Benny Kauff [also banished]
. . .

. . .
1929--Jake Daubert, Del Ennis
I know Del Ennis . . .
The only other match that I find is quite a melange of names and he was eligible in 1920.

Rebel Oakes
Ennis Telfair Oakes

:eek:

[Paul Wendt]

Huggins has more than one vote so this will do.

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Lave Cross
Clark Griffith <= pitcher alert
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Sherry Magee
John McGraw
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Joe Tinker
Bobby Wallace

[DoubleX]

Ray Chapman
Jack Coombs
Gavvy Cravath
Larry Doyle
Ray Fisher (Is he eligible? His banishment doesn't seem just.)
Claude Hendrix
Buck Herzog
Benny Kauff
Lefty Leifield
Fred Luderus
George McBride
Carl Weilman

I also have Bill Hinchman, Bill McKechnie, and Bill Rariden, but I don't think they'll be on the ballot.

1925 is more interesting than it seems given the number of "banned" players who would otherwise be eligible.

In addition to Fisher, Kauff, and very questionable circumstances are Hendrix, there are also the remaining Black Sox - Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, Buck Weaver, Lefty Williams, Happy Felsch, Swede Risberg, and Fred McMullin (Williams, Felsch, Risberg and McMullin would not be eligible anyway).

I hope that Commissioner Landis has cleaned up the game and we will not have to deal with this issue going forward. Still, I can't help but wonder what might players might not have been caught and might never be caught? Are we honoring players that unbeknowst us, undermined the integrity of the game?

Also, I do feel that Commissioner Landis has been heavy handed in a couple of these cases, notably that of Kauff and Fisher. I understand his actions with Fisher, as he wanted to discourage other players from dishonoring contracts and essentially becoming "free agents," but from the available information, I don't believe Fisher has disgraced the integrity of the game, akin to Hal Chase or the Black Sox, that would merit not considering him here.

Benny Kauff reportedly engaged in an auto theft ring and that is the basis of his banishment. While such activities do not speak well of Kauff's character in general, he has not disgraced the game in particular (though, it wouldn't take a huge leap to believe that with the level of corruption in the game during his career, that Kauff's moral turpitude could have extended into the game). I believe this is a matter of justice for the courts (which did acquit), and would say that unless other information becomes available, he should be eligible here.

Put this all together, and I would say that players banned for acts specifically against the game, such as the Black Sox, will not be considered here. Players unfortunately banned for outside activities, may be eligible. I don't believe we need to implement Judge Landis' heavy handiness here, unless there are any objections?

[PVNICK]

Bender
Bresnahan
Chance
Cross
Joss
Kling
Magee
Sheckard
Wallace

I added Joss. Wallace is on as well and I never should have omitted him last year. I'm leaning on Leach based on last year's colloquy but still not sold. Magee goes from the first timers.

[DoubleX]

Anyone else think it's interesting that Sherry Magee is sailing in on the first ballot while Joe Kelley took 8 years and really had to face an uphill climb? Was there really that much difference between the two.

To break from the perspective for a moment, if Magee were in the real Hall and Kelley were out, might things be different? Is this another example of us being over eager to correct an apparent oversight by the Hall, but when it comes to a similar player in the Hall, we seem to lack the same fervor?

[jjpm74]

Anyone else think it's interesting that Sherry Magee is sailing in on the first ballot while Joe Kelley took 8 years and really had to face an uphill climb? Was there really that much difference between the two.

To break from the perspective for a moment, if Magee were in the real Hall and Kelley were out, might things be different? Is this another example of us being over eager to correct an apparent oversight by the Hall, but when it comes to a similar player in the Hall, we seem to lack the same fervor?

I think it's more that Kelley first appeared on the ballot at a time when a lot of us had a log jam of eligible good candidates in our queue whereas Magee comes to us on a ballot that features Wallace, Bresnahan, Joss + a bunch of outliers likely one and done's.

[Paul Wendt]

I would say that players banned for acts specifically against the game, such as the Black Sox, will not be considered here. Players unfortunately banned for outside activities, may be eligible. I don't believe we need to implement Judge Landis' heavy handiness here, unless there are any objections?
I don't know enough to judge Kauff morally, one way or the other. But it doesn't matter here. I concur that Kauff and Fisher (where I do know enough) should be eligible here. So should anyone else expelled or blacklisted on grounds other than involvement in manipulating the play of the game for gambling end$. "involvement" covers all of the arrangements to manipulate, not only direct manipulation.

Regarding anyone expelled or blacklisted on grounds of involvement in manipulating the game, consider the circumstances. Do we have any intermediate cases.

Regarding Claude Hendrix and anyone else where there is some dispute about whether he was expelled or blacklisted on those grounds, or even whether he was expelled or blacklisted at all, put them on the ballot and state that there is dispute about those facts.

[Domenic]

Bresnahan
Chance
Leach
Magee
Wallace

[Captain Cold Nose]

Chief Bender
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Lave Cross
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Jimmy Sheckard
Bobby Wallace

[jjpm74]

Unless there are 4 more ballots cast and they all name Bresnahan, he will once again fall short. We elected Bennett. What does he have that Bresnahan lacks? Bresnahan seems to be at least on par with Bennett if not better.

[PVNICK]

My guess is years of having heard these players like Bresnahan, Kelley, etc. don't belong in the hall or are marginal is a culprit.

[Paul Wendt]

(I expect to vote for Bresnahan every year.)

Unless there are 4 more ballots cast and they all name Bresnahan, he will once again fall short. We elected Bennett. What does he have that Bresnahan lacks? Bresnahan seems to be at least on par with Bennett if not better.
Bennett was maybe the second best defensive catcher. Certainly he was good.

Bennett was both a good batter and a regular catcher for more years than Bresnahan.

A measure such as career OPS+ includes more "decline" for Bennett not only because he declined more than Bresnahan as a batter, but also because he played longer than Bresnahan.
(After 1908 Bresnahan was his own manager. While I know that that curtailed his playing time, I know too that that diminished the impact of his batting decline on his career rates.)

Speaking for one of us who give some credit to Clark Griffith and Frank Chance for the captain and manager roles while they were active players, we do not give Bresnahan credit for similar work with the St Louis Cardinals.

In my opinion, only consideration as a pioneer may boost Bresnahan up to or above Bennett's lofty place in the baseball pantheon.