BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1925 Preliminary

[DoubleX]

Below is a suggested Master Ballot for the 1925 VC election. Feel free to make any suggested additions. The next few days should also be used to start discussing the candidates.

The list is comprised of players whose eligibility in the regular elections expired prior to 1925. For the most part, as a matter of administrative convenience I have not included players that were one and done in the regular election, but feel free to suggest any players you feel might deserve another look. I've also incorporated a number of the "Pioneer Players" from the 1920 VC election into the list. The players I did incorporate played relatively significantly after the 1871 beginning of the professional era. The players I have not included (Asa Brainard, Jim Creighton, Al Reach, Charlie Smith, Jimmy Wood, and Harry Wright), played almost entirely prior to 1871, and/or much more stand out as and contributors rather than players. Thus, these players I feel would be a better fit for the contributors ballot, if and when we continue with that aspect.

Also, just to remind everyone of the process, after our preliminary discussion and finalization of the master ballot, we'll each submit a list of the 15 best players on the master ballot. All players receiving at least 50% support will appear on the final ballot, at which point 75% will be required for election. Finally, this is a players election, if you feel someone should be in based on a combination of their playing career and other roles (i.e. manager, owner, innovator, etc.), it would be more appropriate to vote for that person in the contributors election rather than here as a player.

Suggested Master Ballot
Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
Oyster Burns
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Charlie Comiskey
Larry Corcoran
Bill Craver
Nig Cuppy
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalyrmple
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Cherokee Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
George Hall
Ned Hanlon
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Arlie Latham
Andy Leonard
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
John Peters
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Will White
Jim Whitney
Ned Williamson
Tom York
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

Bold = Appeared on 1920 Final Ballot
Italics = Newly Eligible for VC

[DoubleX]

If there are no suggested additions, then we might as well start the first round voting in the next day or two.

[jjpm74]

No suggestions on newbies. I think you have them all covered. This is my 15:

Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Dave Foutz
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Herman Long
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

Of them, I'm only considering 8 and only 4 are definites voting wise for me: Charley Jones, Herman Long, Jimmy Ryan, Mike Tiernan. Outside of them, I'm also considering Candy Cummings, Dummy Hoy, Tommy McCarthy, and Chief Zimmer for innovations/other contributing factors. The rest are just filler.

[philkid3]

I don't see anyone missing.

[leecemark]

Tommy Bond -1
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
Oyster Burns
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Charlie Comiskey - better qualified as a contributor
Larry Corcoran
Bill Craver
Nig Cuppy
Candy Cummings -2
Abner Dalyrmple
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap -3
Frank Dwyer
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson - also better as contributor
Cherokee Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint -
Davy Force - 4
Dave Foutz - 5
Mike Griffin - 6
George Hall
Ned Hanlon - another contributor
Dummy Hoy - 7
Charley Jones -8
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Arlie Latham
Andy Leonard
Herman Long - 9
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick - 10
Ed McKean -11
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
John Peters
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Jimmy Ryan - 12
Mike Tiernan - 13
Will White
Jim Whitney
Ned Williamson - 14
Tom York
George Zettlein - 15
Chief Zimmer

--Most of my 15 I have no intention of voting for. I'm not positive I'll vote for any, although I support LOng and Ryan in their last years on the regular ballot.

[Paul Wendt]

delete: opening paragraph including coverage of Cy Seymour, per #7

add:
For now this is a selection of 19 plus an addition of one, Deacon McGuire.

Charlie Comiskey
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalrymple
Fred Dunlap
Bob Ferguson
Mike Griffin
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Arlie Latham
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Tom York
Chief Zimmer

[jjpm74]

This is a list of 19. There are some others whom I would put in my own top 15 such a Cy Seymour, maybe Deacon McGuire. But if suggestions mean serious candidates for election then no. On the other hand if you Mikek mean a minor honor here for people who were on the main ballot a few years, then you should have listed Seymour yourself (1918-1922).

Charlie Comiskey
Candy Cummings
Abner Dalrymple
Fred Dunlap
Bob Ferguson
Mike Griffin
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Arlie Latham
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Tom York
Chief Zimmer

Seymour isn't there because his eligibility time hasn't expired. He won't be eligible for VC election until the 1935 cycle. ;)

[DoubleX]

And Deacon McGuire won't be eligible until the 1930 VC election as his initial year of eligibility in the regular election was 1913.

[BlueBlood]

Tommy Bond
Charlie Buffinton
Candy Cummings
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Silver King
Herman Long
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

The casual electorate has done a much better job recently. I think Ryan's the only possibility this election, depending on how many feel he's in the same circle with Van Haltren/Duffy, etc.

Edit: Replaced Corcoran with Dick McBride...see discussion below.

[jjpm74]

The casual electorate has done a much better job recently. I think Ryan's the only possibility this election, depending on how many feel he's in the same circle with Van Haltren/Duffy, etc.

Herman Long is the only player on this list who is in the BBFHOF. He stands a better chance of election than Ryan.

[DoubleX]

Herman Long is the only player on this list who is in the BBFHOF. He stands a better chance of election than Ryan.

I'm not sure about that. Looking at how the VC members voted for Long and Ryan in their last year of regular election eligibility, Ryan would get the requisite 9 votes while Long would fall short with 7. There seemed to be a feeling that after Duffy and Van Haltren were elected, it would be hard to deny Ryan, a very similar player.

Anyway, everyone feel free to submit your 15 player lists here, and then I'll start a new thread for the final voting.

My 15:

Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Duke Farrell
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Charley Jones
Silver King
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan

[jalbright]

1. Tommy Bond
2. Charlie Comiskey
3. Fred Dunlap
4. Davy Force
5. Dave Foutz
6. Mike Griffin
7. Ned Hanlon
8. Charley Jones
9. Silver King
10. Herman Long
11. Bobby Mathews
12. Jim McCormick
13. Tip O'Neill
14. Jimmy Ryan
15. Mike Tiernan

[Paul Wendt]

Charlie Comiskey - relegated in favor of Dick McBride
Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Bob Ferguson
Mike Griffin
Dummy Hoy
Charley Jones
Arlie Latham
Herman Long
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson
Chief Zimmer

edit: cut to 15
edit: relegate Comiskey in favor of McBride

[Paul Wendt]

And Deacon McGuire won't be eligible until the 1930 VC election as his initial year of eligibility in the regular election was 1913.
OK. I cut the list to 15, partly by reference to the lists from other participants, where the cuts are those with little or no support elsewhere.

[dgarza]

Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Charley Jones
Silver King
Denny Lyons
Bobby Matthews
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Will White

[jjpm74]

I nominate Dick McBride to the players ballot and have amended my 15 person ballot to eliminate Larry Corcoran in favor of McBride.

Dick McBride received 4 votes in the last VC players election and is the only person who was designated as a pioneer who is not eligible for the contributors ballot to receive votes in the last VC election.

[BlueBlood]

I agree with this sentiment and have amended my ballot as well, replacing Corcoran with McBride.

[leecemark]

I nominate Dick McBride to the players ballot and have amended my 15 person ballot to eliminate Larry Corcoran in favor of McBride.

Dick McBride received 4 votes in the last VC players election and is the only person who was designated as a pioneer who is not eligible for the contributors ballot to receive votes in the last VC election.

--What makes a pioneer eligible or not eligible for the contributors ballot?

[jjpm74]

--What makes a pioneer eligible or not eligible for the contributors ballot?

Impact on the game outside of their on the field play; and/or someone who's career encompassed primarily playing before 1871. Someone like Creighton, Reach, Cummings, or Wright had a great deal of off the field impact (Creighton mostly as a pre-stat superstar of the very beginning of the professional era of baseball). McBride was simply the second best (or arguably the best depending on how much you want to factor in the team each played on) pitcher of his generation and that is measurable statistically unlike the peripheral contributions of Creighton, Cummings, Wright, Reach, under consideration on the VC Contributors side of the project..

[KCGHOST]

Buffinton
Cuppy
Dunlap
Griffin
Hoy
King
Jones
Long
Lyons
McCormick
McKean
O'Neill
Ryan
Tiernan
White

[DoubleX]

Impact on the game outside of their on the field play; and/or someone who's career encompassed primarily playing before 1871. Someone like Creighton, Reach, Cummings, or Wright had a great deal of off the field impact (Creighton mostly as a pre-stat superstar of the very beginning of the professional era of baseball). McBride was simply the second best (or arguably the best depending on how much you want to factor in the team each played on) pitcher of his generation and that is measurable statistically unlike the peripheral contributions of Creighton, Cummings, Wright, Reach, under consideration on the VC Contributors side of the project..

That's pretty much it. I incorporated most of the pioneer-players from the last election into the regular VC ballot this time. For all the players I did bring over, I believe they played at least 6 seasons after 1871 and accumulated fairly significant appearance numbers for the day, so I didn't see why we should treat them so differently. For players that didn't really leave a mark after 1871 or are much better known for their contributions, I figured they can go to the contributors ballot.

I did vote for Cummings here though as I think his innovation of the curveball as a player is something that can be considered as part of his playing career. It could go both ways though and I think it's valid if he appears on the contributors ballot as well. Cummings also pitched 2100+ innings after 1871 with an ERA+ of 120. So I think as a player, he has a justified place being considered here. I like him a little bit more than McBride, but I could be swayed on McBride if I'm given a little more insight on his pre-1871 exploits (which can be considered here).

[Paul Wendt]

I nominate Dick McBride to the players ballot and have amended my 15 person ballot to eliminate Larry Corcoran in favor of McBride.

Dick McBride received 4 votes in the last VC players election and is the only person who was designated as a pioneer who is not eligible for the contributors ballot to receive votes in the last VC election.

Yesterday I wrote
OK. I cut the list to 15, partly by reference to the lists from other participants, where the cuts are those with little or no support elsewhere.
McBride is one of the four among 19 whom I cut, selected for that because no one else named him. (I almost added Farrell because Mike did name him.) I would vote for him in the second stage.

Maybe we have some issues to resolve. I'll check in later rather than revise again and again.

[Windy City Fan]

Tommy Bond
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Charley Jones
Arlie Latham
Herman Long
Bobby Mathews
Jimmy McAleer
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
Ed McKean
Tip O'Neill
Dave Orr
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan

[philkid3]

Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Fred Dunlap
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Charley Jones
Silver King
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Chief Zimmer

[Paul Wendt]

Congratulations, Phillies.
With the Athletics in Oakland, I suppose that Dick McBride would support the current Philadelphia team in general, not to mention in championship play with the Athletics not involved.

Monday I concluded,
Maybe we have some issues to resolve. I'll check in later rather than revise again and again.

At #6 posted and corrected Saturday, I have marked my five Sunday cuts.
At #13 posted Sunday, I have reinstated McBride instead of Comiskey.

[DoubleX]

I believe we're still waiting on two preliminary ballots. Once they're in, we'll get going with the final voting.

[AG2004]

Preliminary Ballot:

Tommy Bond
Candy Cummings
Dave Foutz
Mike Griffin
Charley Jones
Herman Long
Denny Lyons
Dick McBride
Jim McCormick
Levi Meyerle
Billy Nash
Tip O'Neill
Jimmy Ryan
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

I'm not sure how Nash, who last played in 1898, was omitted from the master ballot. Williamson and McKean both made the final VC ballot in 1920; here's how the three players compare in season-adjusted win shares:

McKean 240-77-105
Nash 245-74-115
Williamson 239-81-120

The win shares system may slightly underrate Nash' defense during his peak years; he won six Win Shares Gold Gloves during his career. Nash was also the captain for several pennant-winning teams in Boston, and should get leadership credit for that. Overall, I see Nash as better than McKean. Yes, McKean was a good hitter, but he was also the worst defensive shortstop to have played 5000 innings at the position, and that pulls him back down.

[DoubleX]

I'm not sure how Nash, who last played in 1898, was omitted from the master ballot. Williamson and McKean both made the final VC ballot in 1920; here's how the three players compare in season-adjusted win shares:

I don't believe anyone suggested adding him during the suggestion period in this election or in 1920. I'll add him to the master ballot for next time though.

[DoubleX]

We're still waiting for Freakshow to submit his ballot. I know he's busy so I'll give him another day or two, then we'll move on. I'm considering two options:

1) Basing the election on the 11 ballots. The unfortunate part about this is that there are currently three players one vote under the line, so one ballot could make a big difference.

2) Asking someone else to join so we have 12, and then just having a bigger committee going forward.

I'm actually leaning towards the first and adopting a new quorum rule. In the future, I'll give everyone a week to submit their preliminary ballots, and if after a week at least 9 of the 12 have voted, we'll proceed to the final ballot. I might also expand the VC by 2-3 members.

[BlueBlood]

I'd go with #1 and institute the new rule. Then it's no big deal if somebody forgets to show up, we can just move onward without them for the time being.

Plus, those players at 7 votes in the preliminary stage would not only need Freakshow's ballot to list them, but they would also need all 8 that listed them on their preliminary ballot to vote for them in the general election. The odds of that happening are certainly minute.

[BlueBlood]

Herman Long is the only player on this list who is in the BBFHOF. He stands a better chance of election than Ryan.

Long was never elected to the BBFHOF although he did shore up some more support in the last six months of that project. I still hold the contention that Jimmy Ryan is the only player with a chance this round.

[DoubleX]

I'm going to put the quorum rule into effect and end this after 11 ballots. Below are the results from preliminary voting and I'll start a new thread for final voting. To make the final ballot, a player had to have been named on at least 50% of the preliminary ballots, which would be 6. Hopefully we'll get all 12 votes in the final round because I'd rather not go to the quorum rule again:

Results
Charley Jones - 11
Jim McCormick - 11
Jimmy Ryan - 11
Mike Tiernan - 11
Herman Long - 10
Candy Cummings - 9
Tommy Bond - 8
Ed McKean - 7
Fred Dunlap - 7
Mike Griffin - 7
Tip O'Neill - 7
Dave Foutz - 6
Silver King - 6

Denny Lyons - 5
Ned Williamson - 5
Bobby Mathews - 4
Chief Zimmer - 4
Dick McBride - 4
Dave Orr - 3
Levi Meyerle - 3
Arlie Latham - 2
Charlie Buffinton - 2
Charlie Comiskey - 2
Davy Force - 2
Larry Corcoran - 2
Tommy McCarthy - 2
Will White - 2
Billy Nash - 1
Bob Ferguson - 1
Duke Farrell - 1
George Zettlein - 1
Jimmy McAleer - 1
Ned Hanlon - 1
Nig Cuppy - 1