Francona must be a relative of houdini

[joshfan]

These BoSox are such a treat to watch over the years
They are the only team I've ever seen that can be so cocksure when seemingly out of it

[108stitches]

These BoSox are such a treat to watch over the years
They are the only team I've ever seen that can be so cocksure when seemingly out of it

Isn't that true though? I was watching last night the annoncer says that Boston hasn't been shutout in the playoffs since 1918 - then bam! They gat a run. Not once did those annoncers claim final victory for the Rays. I was thoroughly entertained when Big Papi hit that HR. Then I had to pick up my wife from work and when I came back it was 7-6. Then 7-7. These guys don't quit. I'm not even a Red Sox fan normally but you've gotta tip your cap. They are the Boston Go Sox. Sorry Rays fans--I think your team is in real trouble now.

[joshfan]

first team that can seriously say "we got em right where we want em" when being seemingly buried

[SHOELESSJOE3]

These BoSox are such a treat to watch over the years
They are the only team I've ever seen that can be so cocksure when seemingly out of it

Hats off to the Bosox they got off the floor.
But lets not give all the credit to Terry, how about his assistant Ray's manager Joe Madden.

Looks like things were going too good for Ray's pitcher Kazmir, Joe says we can't have that, lets pull Kazmir. So he only gave up two hits, struck out 7, last inning he pitched the sixth, struck out Yuke and Bay, Drew a flyout.

We have to put an end to this, Kazmir is just pitching too good.
Pull him.
Live and die by the reliever, in this case die.
You know what the guy thats in the game is pitching like, your watching it Joe, you have no idea what the guy coming in will pitch like on that day.

I think Joe made a wrong move and it has nothing to do with hindsight, I wondered what the heck he was doing at that very time, it had to do with was taking place at the time, starter doing a great job, 6th inning and out.
Not a Bosox fan here but again, have to hand it to them, no matter what the circumstances they dug out of a very, very deep hole.

[bhss89]

Unbelievable. Haven't seen anything like that since my son's tee ball team came back from being down 19 runs a few summers ago.
Just wondering what the members of Red Sox Nation that left early are thinking today? You could see them leaving in droves when Upton's 2-bagger made it 7-0.

Unbelievable.

[Evangelion]

Hats off to the Bosox they got off the floor.
But lets not give all the credit to Terry, how about his assistant Ray's manager Joe Madden.

Looks like things were going too good for Ray's pitcher Kazmir, Joe says we can't have that, lets pull Kazmir. So he only gave up two hits, struck out 7, last inning he pitched the sixth, struck out Yuke and Bay, Drew a flyout.

We have to put an end to this, Kazmir is just pitching too good.
Pull him.
Live and die by the reliever, in this case die.
You know what the guy thats in the game is pitching like, your watching it Joe, you have no idea what the guy coming in will pitch like on that day.

I think Joe made a wrong move and it has nothing to do with hindsight, I wondered what the heck he was doing at that very time, it had to do with was taking place at the time, starter doing a great job, 6th inning and out.
Not a Bosox fan here but again, have to hand it to them, no matter what the circumstances they dug out of a very, very deep hole.
Kazmir? The pitcher with 111 pitches? Yeah, Kazmir, who's had injuries issues. Let's push him further with a 7-0 lead.

Also, you are aware the sixth was his first one-two-three inning.

Second guessing a manager. Put the majority of the blame on the pitchers that failed. Wheeler, Howell and Balfour failed and all three should be aware of that fact. I doubt the three relief pitchers and Kazmir would blame Maddon, like a lot of people are doing.

Yes, it has every thing to do with hindsight. The Rays win 7-0, you don't even have a thought about Kazmir being pulled in the sixth. Or, will you say you did. After all that's happened.

I give credit to Red Sox coming back, but I won't blame Joe Maddon for his decision to go to his three best relief pitchers. They're the ones that failed to close the game, not Maddon. It's not like they have been questionable pitchers all season long either. They been consistent and the strengthen of their bullpen.

[gman5431]

Yeah, for real. I dont like pitch counts but in this day in age, no pitcher is going to go out and start a new inning at 111 pitches, especially with his team ahead 7-0. There is no pitcher and no manager that would have left the starter in in that situation. The real goats were the three usually stead members of the TB bullpen who allowed Boston 8 runs in 3 innings. This was a huge game. TB had them, had their foot on the throat and let them go. Boston beat their way back into it. Even with going back to the Trop, i am thinking Boston is right there. Rays better win game 6 because if they dont it will be repeat of 2003 ALCS - once Boston got it back to game 7 then it was all over.....

G Man

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Kazmir? The pitcher with 111 pitches? Yeah, Kazmir, who's had injuries issues. Let's push him further with a 7-0 lead.

Also, you are aware the sixth was his first one-two-three inning.

No it was not. His last 3 Innings.
4th inning Drew leads off with a walk then it's 1-2-3
5th inning 1-2-3
6th inning 1-2-3
Thats 9 in a row retired [ Quote]

Second guessing a manager. Put the majority of the blame on the pitchers that failed. Wheeler, Howell and Balfour failed and all three should be aware of that fact. I doubt the three relief pitchers and Kazmir would blame Maddon, like a lot of people are doing.

Yes, it has every thing to do with hindsight. The Rays win 7-0, you don't even have a thought about Kazmir being pulled in the sixth. Or, will you say you did. After all that's happened.

I give credit to Red Sox coming back, but I won't blame Joe Maddon for his decision to go to his three best relief pitchers. They're the ones that failed to close the game, not Maddon. It's not like they have been questionable pitchers all season long either. They been consistent and the strengthen of their bullpen.




Thats what the boards all about, we both have different takes on the results and we have no way of knowing what might have been had the kept Kazmir in for part of that sixth inning or the whole inning. We can only go by what did happen with the change.
If we think your way, then no manager in the history of the game ever made a mistake by pulling a starter. I fully understand what your saying, reliable relievers should do the job, expected to, but the guy in there gave up only two hits and showed absolutely no sign of weakness. Going back to where I started, no matter how good the reliever may be we don't know what he's like on that day but you do know what the guy on the mound is pitching like, why tamper.
I don't make the rules as to how some broadcasters and observers view a strategic move. I only know one thing, fair or not when it doesn't work it could be viewed by "some" as the wrong move. Every time you tell me about the relievers not doing the job, I will agree but I'll go back to this one......... the guy in the game was doing fine, we could see that.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

One thing about last nights game, the beauty of baseball, unlike most other team sports time stands still. No stalling, no freezing the ball. Football I watch quite a bit, like it but the part where the QB goes down on his knee with seconds left, game over.
Baseball as long as you have even one strike left, the game goes on, the pitcher has to keep pitching.
Fenway is the park as most of us know where no lead is safe, some of the most improbable comebacks took place there.
Not sure but I believe some time in the 1950s the Bosox scored something like 7 runs with two outs in the last inning. Could have been no one on when the rally started.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

One thing about last nights game, the beauty of baseball, unlike most other team sports time stands still. No stalling, no freezing the ball. Football I watch quite a bit, like it but the part where the QB goes down on his knee with seconds left, game over.
Baseball as long as you have even one strike left, the game goes on, the pitcher has to keep pitching.
Fenway is the park as most of us know where no lead is safe, some of the most improbable comebacks took place there.
Not sure but I believe some time in the 1950s the Bosox scored something like 7 runs with two outs in the last inning. Could have been no one on when the rally started.

Took a quick look, it's been done a number of times.
1952 Cubs score seven runs ninth inning after two outs---------win 9-8
1954 Dodgers score 12 runs after two outs eighth inning---win 20-7.

June 18, 1953 At Fenway, Bosox leading Tigers 5-3 explode for 17 runs in the bottom of the seventh a record for runs scored in half inning.
The last out by the Bosox George Kell the former Tiger he misses a probable double at least by a foot or two, with the bases loaded, pins the Tiger Lund with his back to the Green Monster.

[Evangelion]

Thats what the boards all about, we both have different takes on the results and we have no way of knowing what might have been had the kept Kazmir in for part of that sixth inning or the whole inning. We can only go by what did happen with the change.
If we think your way, then no manager in the history of the game ever made a mistake by pulling a starter. I fully understand what your saying, reliable relievers should do the job, expected to, but the guy in there gave up only two hits and showed absolutely no sign of weakness. Going back to where I started, no matter how good the reliever may be we don't know what he's like on that day but you do know what the guy on the mound is pitching like, why tamper.
I don't make the rules as to how some broadcasters and observers view a strategic move. I only know one thing, fair or not when it doesn't work it could be viewed by "some" as the wrong move. Every time you tell me about the relievers not doing the job, I will agree but I'll go back to this one......... the guy in the game was doing fine, we could see that.
No. I have no problem questioning pulling Kazmir in a close game, but it's 7-0. If Kazmir won both games, I bet you would still question Kazmir pulling if the game was 1-0, but the Rays won. If the Rays won 7-0 and Kazmir was pulled, I doubt you or any person would have brought it up.

I question bringing in a clearly an awful pitcher name Mike Timlin in Game 2 by Francona while Paul Byrd was in the bullpen. I have no problem questioning a manager, but to question him when he went with his best relief pitchers? To question him pulling a young starter with a history of injuries in a 7-0 game with 110 plus pitch count. I simply will not agree.

It was 7-0. Let's blow Kazmir's arm out just for the sake of it. What reasonable baseball fan did not believe the game was close to over. At that, the Rays were sending very good relief pitchers out there. Not a terrible relief pitcher like Mike Timlin, but reliable pitchers like Balfour, Wheeler and Howell.

Yeah, we don't known what that reliever going to be like on a given day. We, the fans, can only go by the numbers, so do the managers. By the numbers, these were good and reliable relievers while your young pitcher was nearing 120 pitches and you had 7-0 lead. I take him out and likely any manager in the game would with that pitch count, with that lead and with the history of injuries Kazmir had. I go with these reliable relievers. The probability of blowing that lead was extremely low that it likely won't happen, but it did and they failed. I'm not going to hang them for failing, but they deserve most the blame for the lose. I don't believe Maddon should hold no blame for what happen and sure, I would have made a couple moves differently. In hindsight, everyone would likely say this, which is my point. He didn't make an absurdly bone-head move I believe should be question that much.

I will still stay with the fact the young Kazmir with a history of injuries had a 7-0 lead, nearing 120 pitches, had a history of injuries. It does seem ideal to push him even more pitches in a 7-0. Not to mention he likely regained his confidence and if he came in the seventh and got hit, he might have just lost it. Don't see the point risking his health and confidence with a 7-0 lead, playoffs or not. I have a different view if the the game was 1-0 or 2-0 or even 3-0, but it wasn't.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

No. I have no problem questioning pulling Kazmir in a close game, but it's 7-0. If Kazmir won both games, I bet you would still question Kazmir pulling if the game was 1-0, but the Rays won. If the Rays won 7-0 and Kazmir was pulled, I doubt you or any person would have brought it up.
I question bringing in a clearly an awful pitcher name Mike Timlin in Game 2 by Francona while Paul Byrd was in the bullpen. I have no problem questioning a manager, but to question him when he went with his best relief pitchers? To question him pulling a young starter with a history of injuries in a 7-0 game with 110 plus pitch count. I simply will not agree.

It was 7-0. Let's blow Kazmir's arm out just for the sake of it. What reasonable baseball fan did not believe the game was close to over. At that, the Rays were sending very good relief pitchers out there. Not a terrible relief pitcher like Mike Timlin, but reliable pitchers like Balfour, Wheeler and Howell.

Yeah, we don't known what that reliever going to be like on a given day. We, the fans, can only go by the numbers, so do the managers. By the numbers, these were good and reliable relievers while your young pitcher was nearing 120 pitches and you had 7-0 lead. I take him out and likely any manager in the game would with that pitch count, with that lead and with the history of injuries Kazmir had. I go with these reliable relievers. The probability of blowing that lead was extremely low that it likely won't happen, but it did and they failed. I'm not going to hang them for failing, but they deserve most the blame for the lose. I don't believe Maddon should hold no blame for what happen and sure, I would have made a couple moves differently. In hindsight, everyone would likely say this, which is my point. He didn't make an absurdly bone-head move I believe should be question that much.

I will still stay with the fact the young Kazmir with a history of injuries had a 7-0 lead, nearing 120 pitches, had a history of injuries. It does seem ideal to push him even more pitches in a 7-0. Not to mention he likely regained his confidence and if he came in the seventh and got hit, he might have just lost it. Don't see the point risking his health and confidence with a 7-0 lead, playoffs or not. I have a different view if the the game was 1-0 or 2-0 or even 3-0, but it wasn't.


Of course I wouldn't question anything if the Rays won 7-0, what reason would there be to question that ending. If the Rays won by 1-0 or 7-0 there would nothing to question.

It was only one more inning as I said earlier and he had retired the last 9 consecutive batters, he was coasting. It's not like I'm all alone in questioning the move and I'm not the only one who wondered why not after the game .....but at the very time. There have been others in the world of sports who wondered why.

The bottom line is, the bottom line is still the same.....whether a manager leaves a pitcher in too long and gets beat or pulls him in situation that can be questioned and gets beat is always the same, if either move fails it will be questioned. It may not seem fair but thats just the way it is.

Your going to keep harping on how the usual relievers failed and the critics are going to keep saying the guy in there was in great control and one more inning was not going to kill his arm. Joe Torre went through the same.

Should the Bosox win the playoff the move will be questioned even more.
But, yes the Bosox may but I don't think so. People are underestimating the young Rays. For a young team they show real poise, they have it all and I don't think that 8-7 loss is going to rattle them

[Mattingly]

Maddon took the inexperienced and definitely unwise approach. He plays in the AL East. Did he not realize that for the past few years, the Red Sox are a very resilient team? They know how to come back.

Kazmir went 6 innings, when any decent young starter could've gone 7. Unless he was on short rest, that gives Boston 1 extra inning -- 3 innings instead of 2 -- to make up the difference in runs.

Pitching to Ortiz, despite his huge slump in the playoffs, made no sense to me with 2 runners on. He loves getting huge hits at the biggest moments in front of the home crowd. Did Maddon not know this?

Once Francona put Papelbon into the game, he officialy stated that he was playing to win. Maddon seemed like he was just happy to be there. He went in without his thinking cap and got seriously outmanaged in a game which was so winnable, it still amazes me that he lost. Maddon is the goat for that game.

We'll see if Maddon can put his thinking cap on tonight. If they lose, I don't give them much of a chance in Game 7. Before Game 5, TB had outscored the BoSox around 22-5 or so. Now Boston has finally clicked offensively with its back to the wall. That's a very dangerous team to play aganst like that, if the 2004 & 2007 ALCSs are any indication. Now Boston has tasted victory and are eager to win twice more.

If Maddon becomes equally casual during Saturday's Game 6, I suggest he simply forfeit Game 7, since he would have already waived the white flag. Yes, I know saying that is in bad taste, but if one doesn't lock the house fortune in a safe, you may as well throw the front door open anyway, since it'll just save time.

Thursday's Game 5 win by Boston just didn't "happen". I believe it's proof of the difference between when you have a manager who merely wants a win and doesn't mind getting sloppy, as he incorrectly presumes the game is already won, and a thinking manager who puts his team in the best position to win, taking advantage of the other manager's ill-advised miscues. A bad manager hands an opportunity to the opposing team; a good manager takes advantage of the opportunity. It's obvious who was who in that scenario.

I predict that the winner of this series will win the WS, since the Phanatics have been resting a bit too long, and their players, to my knowledge, don't have any playoff experience. I also remember the Phanatics' Manuel allowing Manny to hit a 3-run shot in the NLDS, but he managed to still win that game. I have no idea why managers love to live on the edge, since they could've given their team a better chance to win, just in case one of their relievers won't be pitching well that night.

In order for Maddon to escape Thursday's huge faux pas, Shields has to throw an effective 7 innings, Boston's pitcher has to throw ineffectively, and Maddon has to put the pressure on Boston for all 9 innings. Otherwise, he'll lose.

[Imgran]

There are two wildcards re: Kazmir that you aren't considering.

First, he'd thrown a lot of pitches already. I know Nazi science sneers at pitch counts but you still have to manage for both this game and the next one since this isn't an elimination game for YOU. Getting to the World Series with all your pitching bullets spent and then taing on the Phils is a losing proposition too.

Secondly, Kazmir's had elbow trouble all year. With a healthy starter maybe you consider going to 130 pitches, but when a potentially injured starter throws 6 innings of shutout baseball, it's a blowout game, you need him to keep pitching through his elbow problems and be effective in the World Series, yeah, you take your foot off the gas pedal and trust 3 above average relievers not to surrender 8 runs in 3 innings.

[ipitch]

Kazmir went 6 innings, when any decent young starter could've gone 7. Unless he was on short rest, that gives Boston 1 extra inning -- 3 innings instead of 2 -- to make up the difference in runs.


Huh? Basically what you're saying is that Boston couldn't have possibly scored if Kazmir had pitched the 7th. :noidea

Are you aware of how good Balfour has been this year?


Once Francona put Papelbon into the game, he officialy stated that he was playing to win. Maddon seemed like he was just happy to be there.

He managed the same way he did all year. Stuff happens. Balfour just happened to have his worst game all season.

You just typed ~7 paragraphs about Maddon - do you think you would have been critical of Maddon AT ALL if Ortiz and Drew had made outs instead of homering? That easily could have happened.

Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the hitters instead of ripping apart the opposing manager.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

There are two wildcards re: Kazmir that you aren't considering.

First, he'd thrown a lot of pitches already. I know Nazi science sneers at pitch counts but you still have to manage for both this game and the next one since this isn't an elimination game for YOU. Getting to the World Series with all your pitching bullets spent and then taing on the Phils is a losing proposition too.

Secondly, Kazmir's had elbow trouble all year. With a healthy starter maybe you consider going to 130 pitches, but when a potentially injured starter throws 6 innings of shutout baseball, it's a blowout game, you need him to keep pitching through his elbow problems and be effective in the World Series, yeah, you take your foot off the gas pedal and trust 3 above average relievers not to surrender 8 runs in 3 innings.

I get your point Imgran but I doubt one more inning or part of that 7th inning was going to damage Kazmire's arm. Yes his pitch count was high but if you look at the 4th-5th and 6th inning he was coasting. Lead off man on in the 4th and then he retires the next 9 hitters. He was in total control if he was battling the Bosox from that 4th to 6th inning I could understand pulling him after 6 innings.

We could debate this one for all time and the way the game goes, it's still the same, make a move and if it works it was good if not it was bad. Again, fair or not thats the way the move is judged, been that way for over 100 years.
The fact that the relievers did not do what was expected means nothing, it hinges on pulling a pitcher in total control, give him one more inning.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Huh? Basically what you're saying is that Boston couldn't have possibly scored if Kazmir had pitched the 7th. :noideaAre you aware of how good Balfour has been this year?



He managed the same way he did all year. Stuff happens. Balfour just happened to have his worst game all season.

You just typed ~7 paragraphs about Maddon - do you think you would have been critical of Maddon AT ALL if Ortiz and Drew had made outs instead of homering? That easily could have happened.

Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the hitters instead of ripping apart the opposing manager.

I don't think thats what the other poster was saying, anything is possible. I'll leave that up to the poster to answer. Thats going down a road with no answer. Yes they might have scored even with Kazmire in the 7th inning, not likely the way he was pitching, but again yes the Bosox might have scored.
With respect to your point it's useless to debate because we will never know.
We can only judge the move on what happened, not what might have happened, how would we ever know.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Huh? Basically what you're saying is that Boston couldn't have possibly scored if Kazmir had pitched the 7th. :noidea

Are you aware of how good Balfour has been this year?



He managed the same way he did all year. Stuff happens. Balfour just happened to have his worst game all season.

You just typed ~7 paragraphs about Maddon - do you think you would have been critical of Maddon AT ALL if Ortiz and Drew had made outs instead of homering? That easily could have happened.
Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the hitters instead of ripping apart the opposing manager.

How does anyone answer that one. Of course no one would be critical if Ortiz and Drew made out, whats the logic on that one.
Again the move is judged on what did happen, thats it.
If it didn't happen that way we or others would not even be discussing the event.

[Imgran]

I get your point Imgran but I doubt one more inning or part of that 7th inning was going to damage Kazmire's arm.

Being a man of more than moderate girth, I am very familiar with the argument you're making here. It boils down to "just one more can't hurt."

It can. It does. Just ask my diabetes, or any alcoholic, the danger of one more.

Anyway, who's to say an exhausted Kazmir working past 120 pitches with a bum elbow doesn't surrender 4 runs himself? In fact I'd probably consider that more likely than the same thing happening to Grant Ball-Four.

Yes his pitch count was high but if you look at the 4th-5th and 6th inning he was coasting.

Which says jack-all about his fitness to pitch the seventh inning.

Lead off man on in the 4th and then he retires the next 9 hitters. He was in total control if he was battling the Bosox from that 4th to 6th inning I could understand pulling him after 6 innings.

Sounds like a good high note to take a struggling ace-type out on to me.

Accept the fact that performance in the last inning only predicts performance in the next inning up to a point. With a bad elbow, a history of command problems and a high pitch count, betting that that point was the end of the 6th inning is entirely logical and sensible and probably saved Kazmir some pain -- real, or emotional, or both.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Being a man of more than moderate girth, I am very familiar with the argument you're making here. It boils down to "just one more can't hurt."

It can. It does. Just ask my diabetes, or any alcoholic, the danger of one more.

Anyway, who's to say an exhausted Kazmir working past 120 pitches with a bum elbow doesn't surrender 4 runs himself? In fact I'd probably consider that more likely than the same thing happening to Grant Ball-Four.

Which says jack-all about his fitness to pitch the seventh inning.



Sounds like a good high note to take a struggling ace-type out on to me.

Accept the fact that performance in the last inning only predicts performance in the next inning up to a point. With a bad elbow, a history of command problems and a high pitch count, betting that that point was the end of the 6th inning is entirely logical and sensible and probably saved Kazmir some pain -- real, or emotional, or both.

I'll just reply to that one point. Now your reaching, your saying that your opinion it would be more likely that leaving Kazmire in would likely result in the same results that took place with the relievers. May I say again what might have been has no base, where do you go with something that never happened. I respect your thoughts and others but it's a dead end when anyone states..........well this could have happened if Kazmire remained.

Hate to repeat, but it's the bottom line, we could only look at what did happen, no one in the world could know what might have been, why speculate when it means nothing in the discussion.

He made the move, it didn't work.

[Macker]

Just wondering what the members of Red Sox Nation that left early are thinking today? You could see them leaving in droves when Upton's 2-bagger made it 7-0.

A lot of people were in motion, and the announcers mentioned people heading for the exits, but I don't think many left. A friend of mine was at the game, and he was one going under the stands around that time. As he put it, he was beating the 7th inning stretch crowd at the bathroom & concession lines. Some people did leave, but I think most of those people came back to their seats. I didn't see many empty seats at the end and neither did my friend.

[ipitch]

How does anyone answer that one. Of course no one would be critical if Ortiz and Drew made out, whats the logic on that one.

If Mattingly thinks Maddon poorly managed that game, then he should think the same thing no matter what the results are. A bad result doesn't mean a decision was bad. I'm guessing that he wouldn't have been critical of Maddon had things turned out differently, which they easily could have.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If Mattingly thinks Maddon poorly managed that game, then he should think the same thing no matter what the results are. A bad result doesn't mean a decision was bad. I'm guessing that he wouldn't have been critical of Maddon had things turned out differently, which they easily could have.

Thats no guess, of course I wouldn't have even said anything. Why would anyone say anything at all about the move if it worked out. Am I missing something here.

[highpockets]

Yes his pitch count was high but if you look at the 4th-5th and 6th inning he was coasting. Lead off man on in the 4th and then he retires the next 9 hitters.

What makes you think that a pitcher who retires 9 batters in a row is coasting?

Geeze, if there was ever a percentage move in the history of baseball, it was taking Kazmir out with 111 pitches, a huge lead, and the Rays' bullpen waiting.

It's a _percentage_ move, though; there are no determinate moves.

[ipitch]

Thats no guess, of course I wouldn't have even said anything. Why would anyone say anything at all about the move if it worked out. Am I missing something here.

If he thinks Maddon made some bad moves, shouldn't he say that no matter what the results are? The results were out of Maddon's control. A bad move can have good results, and a good move can have bad results.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If he thinks Maddon made some bad moves, shouldn't he say that no matter what the results are? The results were out of Maddon's control. A bad move can have good results, and a good move can have bad results.

I'm not here to hang Maddon, it's one move we're discussing, Torre went through the same last week, many others thought the move was not good, many others thought he did the right thing.
Of course the results are out of his hands, but he set up the situation that brought about the run scoring.

For some to say that it might have been worse had he left Kazmire in, means nothing, zero. No one knows what might have been, we only know what did happen with the change.

No use going on for all time, some see it one way others see the move another way.

It's all yours, I listened and considered the other side and I had my say.

[plask_stirlac]

Calm down, the Rays swiped game 2 and the Sox plundered game 5.

If the Rays would've seen they'd split Games 3-6, they'd take it after games 1 and 2, almost being no-hit and Kazmir losing it.

I love the people that are whining about Maddon pulling Kazmir. This is the era of Grady Little and Pedro, of Wood and Prior damaging their longterm health for 2003 seemingly (it didn't help), of Kaz being a LONG-TERM asset who had done his job thoroughly.

If the bullpen loses all power after 175 brilliant games, they just need more arms there not starters going 130 pitches.

[josh24]

No, Francona is not Houdini. Houdini would finish the trick. Francona didn't.

[plask_stirlac]

No, Francona is not Houdini. Houdini would finish the trick. Francona didn't.

Yes, it's his fault J.D. Drew struck out.

[joshfan]

Well it, the sawx comeback, made for a great series and says a lot about how good this rays team is .Poise well beyond thier payroll
Looking forward to the Phillies Rays

[gman5431]

Looking forward to the series too. Glad the Rays did it. Red Sox went down with class and grace. What a battle! Great series. Francona is a good man and a great manager, but i do think the better team won.

G Man

[joshfan]

maybe Francona will come out of the omnipresent AL Joe Torre shadow and get his due.
This season in Boston with the injuries to Papi and Drew and the Ramirez hullaballou showed Francona could handle anything a Bronx zoo ever offered and still succeed