BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1923

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1923 Guide
There are 34 candidates on the 1923 ballot – 21 holdovers and 13 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1918 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (13)
Jimmy Archer
Bob Bescher
Doc Crandall
Mickey Doolan
George Gibson
Dick Hoblitzel
John Hummel
Davy Jones
George McQuillan
Rube Oldring
Frank Schulte
Jeff Tesreau
Bobby Wallace

Holdovers (21)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support
Chief Bender 2nd 39.29% 39.29% (1922)
Bill Bradley 4th 1071% 16.13% (1921)
Roger Bresnahan 4th 50.00% 65.38% (1920)
Frank Chance 5th 50.00% 65.38% (1920)
Lave Cross 12th 25.00% 38.46% (1920)
Harry Davis 2nd 3.57% 3.57% (1922)
Mike Donlin 5th 10.71% 25.93% (1919)
Clark Griffith 9th 39.29% 52.00% (1917)
Miller Huggins 3rd 7.14% 16.23% (1921)
Hughie Jennings 10th 53.57% 65.38% (1920)
Fielder Jones 11th 14.29% 19.23% (1920)
Addie Joss 9th 60.71% 74.07% (1919)
Johnny Kling 6th 14.29% 26.92% (1920)
Tommy Leach 2nd 35.71% 35.71% (1922)
Herman Long 15th 50.00% 56.52% (1913)
John McGraw 13th 32.14% 47.83% (1912)
Ed Reulbach 2nd 10.71% 10.71% (1922)
Jimmy Sheckard 6th 32.14% 42.31% (1920)
Roy Thomas 8th 14.29% 25.00% (1917)
Joe Tinker 3rd 10.71% 22.58% (1921)
Hooks Wiltse 4th 7.14% 7.69% (1920)

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (4)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support
Bill Donovan Lack of Support 2 3.57% (1922)
Solly Hofman Lack of Support 2 3.23% (1921)
Jimmy Ryan Eligibility Expired 15 67.86% (1922)
Cy Seymour Lack of Support 5 15.38% (1920)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Herman Long 56.52% (1913)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
Player 1920 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Addie Joss 60.71% 8
Hughie Jennings 53.57% 8
Roger Bresnahan 50.00% 3
Frank Chance 50.00% 4
Herman Long 50.00% 4



Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (3)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919) 2
Hardy Richardson* 69.57% (1912) 3 1915
Jimmy Ryan 67.86% (1922) 1 1922

* = Elected by Veterans Committee


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (59)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased Age at Election
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922) 50
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915) 61
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918) 50
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Living – Age 69 53
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Living – Age 65 50
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 47 45
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905) Deceased
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 55 42
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911) 45
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912) Deceased
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 55 45
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909) 40
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 53 43
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Living – Age 66 45
Sam Crawford 1922 92.86% 1 Right Field Detroit Tigers (AL) 1899-1917 19 Living – Age 43 41
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 53 46
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 53 44
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903) Deceased
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 57 52
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906) 43
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 47 40
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902) Deceased
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 66 54
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 66 52
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 57 40
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Living – Age 68 49
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 66 44
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Deceased (1872-1923) 44
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 52 49
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894) Deceased
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 49 47
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Living – Age 43 41
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Living – Age 52 42
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 64 46
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Living – Age 74 71
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 63 49
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 54 42
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919) 51
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908) Deceased
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893) Deceased
Eddie Plank 1922 92.86% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1901-1917 17 Living – Age 48 47
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897) Deceased
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 68 65
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 52 30
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915) Deceased
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Living - Age 81 78
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 67 51
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907) Deceased
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922) 47
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 57 52
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914) Deceased
Honus Wagner 1922 92.86% 1 Shortstop Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1897-1917 21 Living – Age 49 48
Ed Walsh 1922 89.29% 1 Pitcher Chicago White Sox (AL) 1904-1917 14 Living – Age 42 41
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Living – Age 63 47
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 64 61
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 76 57
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 47 43
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 76 60
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 56 49

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (4): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (5): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner, Joe Start
Second Base (5): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (2): Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (7): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce, John Ward, Honus Wagner, George Wright
Left Field (6): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (7): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
Right Field (5): Sam Crawford, King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (18): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1922 (4): Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner, Ed Walsh


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 27
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 17
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 84.15%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years: 5
- Average Wait Before Election: 3.92 Years
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 7
- Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss – 74.07% (1919)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.36
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 31 (1921)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 24.82-
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 11
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters), Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) - 5
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 15.58 Seasons
- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 35
- Oldest Elected Player: Joe Start – 78
- Average Age at Election: 48.69
- Number of Posthumously Elected Players: 11
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 41
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Joe Start – Age 81
- Deceased in Past Year: Willie Keeler (Age 50)

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31
1922: 28

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697), 1920 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)
1922 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84099)

[philkid3]

No one new makes my ballot (yet) and five people from my last ballot are gone, so I shrank back down pretty fast.

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Miller Huggins
Hughie Jennings
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Jimmy Sheckard
Joe Tinker

[KCGHOST]

Griffith
Joss
McGraw
Wallace

We may not elect anyone this year.

[jalbright]

Leach
Long
Wallace

[jjpm74]

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Lave Cross
Harry Davis
Miller Huggins
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Bobby Wallace
Hooks Wiltse

A number of these players may be dropped from my ballot next year unless I hear some discussion on them that convinces me otherwise (italics).

[leecemark]

Roger Bresnahan, C - best catcher of the last 30 years
Frank Chance, 1B - best player and manager ofthe best team of all time
Clark Griffith, SP - best pitcher on ballot with lots of extra credit
Hughie Jennings, SS - best peak of any available player
Tommy Leach, 3B/CF - great defense and good hitting
Herman Long, SS - last chance for best of the Beaneaters
Jimmy Sheckard, LF - will he follow the Van Haltren or Ryan path?
Bobby Wallace, SS - very good defense, solid bat, very long career

[henrich]

Reulbach
long
cross
bender

[Cowtipper]

Bender
Cross
Donlin
Griffith
Joss
Long
Reulbach
Tesreau, however now that I think about it, he doesn't really belong
Wallace

[BlueBlood]

Wallace in, Crawford/Plank/Wagner/Walsh inducted.

1. Bender, P
2. Bresnahan, C
3. Jennings, SS
4. Joss, P
5. Wallace, SS

Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

Ten (1914 onward) - Hughie Jennings
Nine (1915 onward) - Addie Joss
Four (1920 onward) - Roger Bresnahan
Two (1922 onward) - Chief Bender
One (1923) - Bobby Wallace

[DoubleX]

I went with:

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Bobby Wallace

Wallace will be an interesting candidate. I don't think he'll make it this time, but given our history, he seems like a good candidate that will climb over the line in time.

I'm surprised Bresnahan hasn't picked up more momentum by now. He's easukt the best of the "modern" catchers to this date, and as I mentioned a couple of elections ago, he was instrumental in popularizing a number of equipment innovations that have become standard for catchers, thereby improving a catcher's safety, durability, and production. Bresnahan, in many ways, can be seen as the beginning of what catchers now look like. I'd really like to hear some arguments against Bresnahan.

[Paul Wendt]

After this 1923 season, Lave Cross still ranks #14 with 16.0 full seasons in the field. Ty Cobb leads the active players and he has just squeezed between Cross and Bobby Wallace with 15.9 seasons. The thirteen leaders are all in this Hall of Fame.

Full seasons at all fielding positions, f.s.e. 1871-1923
#14 . 15.98 Lave Cross
#15 . 15.91 Ty Cobb, active leader
#16 . 15.83 Bobby Wallace

#31 . 13.93 Jimmy Sheckard
#33 . 13.87 Tommy Leach
#42 . 13.39 Herman Long

#64 . 12.09 Fielder Jones

At their primary fielding positions,

3B
Lave Cross ranks second with 11.98 full seasons at 3B. Bill Bradley ranks eleventh with 9.29 as only seven players have 10 seasons. Tommy Leach ranks about 30th at both SS and CF with more than six seasons.

SS
Herman Long ranks fifth with 12.8 full seasons at SS. Bobby Wallace #8, Joe Tinker #10, and Mickey Doolan #13 are also among the fourteen players with 10 seasons.

2B
Miller Huggins ranks #14 with 9.84 full seasons at 2B. Only ten players have 10 full seasons.

1B
Harry Davis ranks twelfth with 11.04 full seasons at 1B, among fourteen players with 10 full seasons.

C
Johnny Kling and George Gibson rank twelfth and thirteenth with 7.73 and 7.70 full seasons at catcher. Only two men Deacon McGuire and Pop Snyder have worked 10 full seasons behind the plate, although both Ray Schalk and Steve O'Neill are both close. Roger Bresnahan ranks #26 with 6.37 seasons. Life expectancy is sort behind the plate: Jimmy Archer is in the top fifty with merely 4.8 seasons.

OF
Jimmy Sheckard ranks eleventh with 13.75 full seasons in the outfield. Ty Cobb is already the career leader and Tris Speaker also surpassed Sheckard this year. Fielder Jones #20 and Frank Schulte #25 are also among the 38 players with 10 seasons at the three outfield positions in sum.

LF.
Specifically at leftfield Sheckard is fourth with 12.24 full seasons. Eight players including Zack Wheat and Bobby Veach have at least 10 seasons.
CF.
Specifically at centerfield Roy Thomas is twelfth with 9.12 full seasons and Jones is #14 with 8.37. Tris Speaker surpassed Paul Hines this season to become the all-time leader and Ty Cobb is another one of only seven players with at least 10 seasons.
RF.
Specifically at rightfield Schulte is eleventh with merely 7.74 full seasons. Only five players have at least 10 seasons including Harry Hooper who is now second.

[STLCards2]

Griffith
Wallace
Jennings
Joss
Breshehan
Chance

[philkid3]

It's almost as if people who actually voted for Duffy and Van Haltren see them as mistakes. :laugh

Or maybe it was random? :crazy

[BlueBlood]

Again, it wasn't random. There are clear distinctions and reasons to favor one over the other. They're certainly similar but the categories that Ryan/Sheckard fall behind Van Haltren/Duffy are the reasons they didn't make it in.

[PVNICK]

Bender
Bresnahan
Chance
Cross
Kling
Long
Sheckard

I added Bresnahan. The numbers back up the reputation he had as the top catcher of his generation and probably since Bennett. Joss I'm close on.
Harry Davis as well, my impression is he was the next level below Cobb, Crawford and Lajoie. Bill Bradley, I wonder if he got hurt because the dropoff is stark even taking into account that it coincided with the dead-ball era and the AL being getting its feet under itself. Jennings I discounted becuase he he four or so years where he may well have been the best player in baseball but nothing else. He has only 7 years with 500 PA. Tommy Leach certainly had a long career with some good clubs. The bulk of his career is average performance with a two to three good seasons out of 5. Had he stayed at
3B his whole career instead of shifting back and forth from the OF pretty much all his career I would have been more impressed, but with a well below league average fielding percentage at 3B I can't give him much credit for defense or position.

[leecemark]

--Leach was a very highly regarded defensive thirdbaseman. Fielding percentage is a poor stat to use to determine who the best defenders are/were.

[leecemark]

Again, it wasn't random. There are clear distinctions and reasons to favor one over the other. They're certainly similar but the categories that Ryan/Sheckard fall behind Van Haltren/Duffy are the reasons they didn't make it in.

--If you don't like random how about arbitrary? When VanHaltren and Duffy made it in the same election I accepted that our Hall was going to have a somewhat lower standard than I'd like. Although I voted for neither of them I added Ryan to my ballot since he had a very similar profile to them - and was arguably the best of the 3. Sheckard in turn may be the best of the 4.
-- Ideally I'd have none of them in my Hall, but fair is fair and I can accept a 400 or even 500 player Hall if that is the standard we, as a group, are going to adopt. However, with Ryan having come up short and Sheckard gaining no traction I no longer have any idea what our standards may be. Elect the non brainers and some lesser players who happen to catch the fancy of the electorate?
--I am now very confused as to what makes a Hall of Famer here. In the first VC election I was very liberable in accordance with what appeared to be the relaxed standards of our group. I don't know if I'll carry that approach forward though. Ryan will be a tough call. Add to what I considered mistakes in VanHaltren/Duffy or revert back to a higher standard and live with them as unfortunate indicators of an inconsistent electorate.

[Paul Wendt]

Tommy Leach certainly had a long career with some good clubs. The bulk of his career is average performance with a two to three good seasons out of 5.
By average I suppose you mean OPS+=100.
Even so, average with "two to three good seasons out of 5" is well above average.
Had he stayed at 3B his whole career instead of shifting back and forth from the OF pretty much all his career I would have been more impressed, but with a well below league average fielding percentage at 3B I can't give him much credit for defense or position.
Bill James grades him A+ at thirdbase and A+ at centerfield.

[PVNICK]

--Leach was a very highly regarded defensive thirdbaseman. Fielding percentage is a poor stat to use to determine who the best defenders are/were.
I understand about fielding pct. but for that time frame all we have is that and range factor. My bigger question mark was with the mid career move to the OF so that Dave Brain a SS/3B who came over from St.L and then Tommy Sheehan could man 3B. With all that's been said about 3B being like 2B today it doesn't make sense that you would move a + 3B to make room for players that a century later look much like journeyman.

[Paul Wendt]

LF CF RF
O'Rourke cf-u Hines Kelly -c
Stovey -1b Hamilton Thompson
Delahanty Browning -lf Flick
Burkett Gore Keeler
Clarke Duffy -lf Crawford
Kelley Van Haltren
pike

3B SS 2B 1B
Collins Ward -p-o-2 McPhee Anson
sutton Wright Barnes Brouthers
Glasscock Childs Connor
Davis richardson -of Beckley
Dahlen Lajoie start
pearce
Wagner
Pitchers
Clarkson Rusie Mathewson
Keefe Nichols Brown
Radbourn Young Walsh
Galvin McGinnity Plank
Mullane Waddell
Caruthers -of Willis
Spalding
welch
C
Ewing
White -3b
Bennett
mcvey -o-1-3

[leecemark]

--Teams did some odd things regarding positional moves in those days - and Pittsburg more than most. Honus Wagner spent a number of years patrolling RF and even played some firstbase for the Pirates before settling at SS. If they found it easier to acquire someone to play 3B than CF the Pirates may have decided it was a good idea to move Leach even if he was a gold glove quality defender in the hot corner. Not saying it makes sense to me, but is hard to put myself into the mindset of the Pirates braintrust of 100 years ago.

[jjpm74]

These are who I have for next election:

Red Ames
Jack Barry
Hal Chase Banned from baseball and not eligible
Larry Cheney
Dave Davenport--Not much of a career, probably not worth adding
Chick Gandil Banned from baseball and not eligible
Lee Magee--Threw a game and blacklisted, probably not eligible
Sherry Magee
Willie Mitchell--Not much of a career, probably not worth adding
Red Smith
Terry Turner
Heinie Zimmerman Dirty player and blacklisted probably not eligible

Anyone under the age rule? If not, we only have 6 new additions next year, only one of which will have my vote (Sherry Magee)

Are we going to wait until 1926 for Evers because he played 1 game in 1922? He was finished minus the 1 game in 1922 by 1917 but doesn't turn 45 until 1926.

[Brooklyn]

back to just the one, Joss.

[PVNICK]

Wasn't Lee Magee banned as well?

[Freakshow]

Crawford, Plank, Wagner and Walsh were elected. Ryan expired. Taking their places are returnees Jones, Joss and Thomas, newbie Wallace and first-timer Kling.

Bresnahan
Chance
L. Cross
Griffith
Jennings
F. Jones
Joss
Kling
Leach
Long
McGraw
Sheckard
Thomas
Tinker
Wallace

[jjpm74]

Wasn't Lee Magee banned as well?

Yes, I forgot that he threw a game. He was also banned and not eligible, so we only have 5 new eligibles next year.

[Freakshow]

Wasn't Lee Magee banned as well?
Yes, according to Baseball Library:

Magee batted a career-high .323 as player-manager for Brooklyn's 1915 Federal League entry. His career came to a turbulent end when a jury found him guilty of having bet against his own team, the Dodgers, in 1919.

[Paul Wendt]

Crawford, Plank, Wagner and Walsh were elected. Ryan expired. Taking their places are returnees Jones, Joss and Thomas, newbie Wallace and first-timer Kling.
Back in the 11:00 hour with six empty places I restored Bradley, Bresnahan, and Chance; added Wallace, Kling, and Tinker. . . .
Detroit, we have near convergence, all but Bradley v Joss.


Johnny Evers was applauded in every ballpark and many writers called him the brainiest man in the game but I wonder, was he a greater ballplayer than Joe Tinker at his side or Miller Huggins over in Cincinnati? I hope that they both survive until we consider him. In my opinion, if Evers was clearly greater than Tinker and Huggins then we should probably elect him.


In different ways, Evers and Frank Schulte just missed joining how many of their longtime teammates on the ballot?
There were seven last year.


Sheckard Hofman (schulte)

? Tinker (evers) Chance
Brown
Reulbach

Kling

[PVNICK]

What I find interesting is that Cubs teams of the 00s were probably one of the great teams of their and any time, yet all their HOF players are considered marginal at best, mistakes at worst while Brown when I see him mentioned is downgraded because of the defense. It seems almost contradictory.

[philkid3]

-- Ideally I'd have none of them in my Hall, but fair is fair and I can accept a 400 or even 500 player Hall if that is the standard we, as a group, are going to adopt. However, with Ryan having come up short and Sheckard gaining no traction I no longer have any idea what our standards may be. Elect the non brainers and some lesser players who happen to catch the fancy of the electorate?
At this point, if I was you, I think I would definitely pass off Duffy and Van Haltren as mistakes and not bother trying to adapt your standards to them.

Though I hope you don't because I did vote for them. Just sayin'. :D

[philkid3]

Sherry Magee


Most interesting candidate to me yet and one I've thought this project was made for.

Interesting because I'm voting for him and think he's one of the more glaring real Hall ommissions. I'll be interested to see if I'm alone or not. He's not quite the big name in 2008 of a Bill Dahlen.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Most interesting candidate to me yet and one I've thought this project was made for.

Interesting because I'm voting for him and think he's one of the more glaring real Hall ommissions. I'll be interested to see if I'm alone or not. He's not quite the big name in 2008 of a Bill Dahlen.

Magee is a long-time site favorite.

[philkid3]

Leaving Bobby Wallace off of my ballot is a mistake I'm not going to make next year.

[jjpm74]

What I find interesting is that Cubs teams of the 00s were probably one of the great teams of their and any time, yet all their HOF players are considered marginal at best, mistakes at worst while Brown when I see him mentioned is downgraded because of the defense. It seems almost contradictory.

It happens. Look at the 1986 NY Mets. You have Gary Carter who is in the HOF. Outside of him, you can argue a case for Hernandez, but otheriwse, you had a lot of players who came together as a team and a dominant pitching rotation that helped make them one of the best teams in recent memory. Some of the other key players on that team were Lenny Dykstra, Darryl Strawberry, Ron Darling, Dwight Gooden, Bob Ojeda, Sid Fernandez, Wally Backman, Ray Knight.

[TheSlaff]

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
John McGraw
Jimmy Sheckard
Bobby Wallace

[BlueBlood]

Right now, the candidates at 65% of the vote (13 in total) would need to have eight new voters come around and all eight add them to their ballot. We officially have our second year where we didn't elect anybody.

[dgarza]

Cheif Bender
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Mike Donlin
Hugh Jennings
Addie Joss
John McGraw
Joe Tinker
Bobby Wallace

1. Addie Joss
2. Chief Bender
3. Mike Donlin
4. John McGraw
5. Hugh Jennings
6. Bobby Wallace
7. Roger Bresnahan
8. Joe Tinker
9. Frank Chance

[Paul Wendt]

Herman Long will now expire here. He is getting about 50% as I write and on the whole this summer and fall he is getting a fair degree of attention here. He is commonly overlooked even by those who enjoy debating the great players of the 19th century.

[Paul Wendt]

--Dave Smith, President, Retrosheet,

essentially, regarding which season statistics based on Retrosheet play-by-play should be considered official

[Paul Wendt]

What I find interesting is that Cubs teams of the 00s were probably one of the great teams of their and any time, yet all their HOF players are considered marginal at best, mistakes at worst while Brown when I see him mentioned is downgraded because of the defense. It seems almost contradictory.
Take a look at their career records, nine players named in fielding layout above plus Jimmy Slagle, Harry Steinfeldt, and the Cubs pitchers beyond Brown and Reulbach.

When Slagle or Hofman or Steinfeldt is the weakest man in your starting lineup, whoa! That was the case for several seasons, not for one fluke.

[bambambaseball]

Why arent Adie Joss and Roger Bresnahan getting more votes? One was an amazing pitcher abd the other was an amazing catcher!

[DoubleX]

Next year we see the first of the disgraced Black Sox players (Chick Gandil) as well as Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman. So long as I'm in charge and there there is evidence to justify their banning from the game, they will not appear on the ballot.

Let me know if I missed anyone for next year:

Likely on Ballot
Red Ames
Jack Barry
Larry Cheney
Sherry Magee
Red Smith
Terry Turner

Probably Not on Ballot
Dave Davenport
Willie Mitchell

Banned
Chick Gandil
Hal Chase
Lee Magee
Heinie Zimmerman

Slim pickings again. It would be nice if we can build up support for some of the holdovers. I believe Roger Bresnahan unquestionably belongs. Addie Joss has twice come within 1% of election, so this would be a good time to revisit him. And Bobby Wallace seems like a good candidate to rally behind as well. As for the newcomers, only Sherry Magee would appear to have a chance.

[KCGHOST]

Yep, we may as well move on. To elect anyone we would need the next 6 voters to vote for the a guy(s) who have 15 votes. Not likely.

And you have to keep the ban in force for the Black Sox.

[jjpm74]

Likely on Ballot
Red Ames
Jack Barry
Larry Cheney
Sherry Magee
Red Smith
Terry Turner

Probably Not on Ballot
Dave Davenport
Lee Magee
Willie Mitchell

Banned
Chick Gandil
Hal Chase
Heinie Zimmerman


Lee Magee was banned from baseball and should definitely not be on the ballot.

It looks like we'll elect no one this year and that our best bet for electing anyone next year will be Sherry Magee.

It's not a good sign that even with a slim ballot we can't get Frank Chance and Hughie Jennings over the hump. Both accomplished enough when combining their play with their off the field contributions.

Roger Bresnahan was the best catcher in baseball when he played, helped popularize catching equipment, and is comparable to Charlie Bennet who we did elect. It's surprising to see that he hasn't picked up any steam.

Bobby Wallace is yet another superstar short stop getting shorted in our election. We don't seem to like short stops here. Both Herman Long and Bobby Wallace were excellent fielders and players.

[DoubleX]

Bobby Wallace is yet another superstar short stop getting shorted in our election. We don't seem to like short stops here. Both Herman Long and Bobby Wallace were excellent fielders and players.

While it was an uphill battle for some, we have elected 7 shortstops, tied for the most with any position other than pitcher. I do think though that Wallace and Jennings would both be fine and deserved additions. I think in earlier elections players definitely benefited from discussion and detailed analysis. We haven't really been having much player focused discussion lately, so in these thin elections, certain players probably could benefit greatly from a good discussion. I definitely think at least Bresnahan and Wallace have the potential to be pushed over the hump. I'd say Joss too, but he's hard to get a handle on. He'll go from within 1% of election to losing 10-15%. People seem to be frequently changing their minds on him.

I'd give Jennings a shot with enough discussion. I don't know if Chance will get there though.

[Brooklyn]

So long as I'm in charge and there there is evidence to justify their banning from the game, they will not appear on the ballot.



Your project so you can do what you want, but I'd prefer to see them on the ballot and let the voters decide if their conduct is enough to supress a vote. I imagine there is enough people here who are against them being enshrined that it will be almost impossible to get 75%, but I'd still prefer the voters to decide (of course putting them on the ballot would likely digress into the same non-winnable debates we've consistently had on these boards regarding their eligiblity, whcih isn't preferred, either)

[Paul Wendt]

These are who I have for next election:

Hal Chase Banned from baseball and not eligible
Chick Gandil Banned from baseball and not eligible
Lee Magee--Threw a game and blacklisted, probably not eligible
Heinie Zimmerman Dirty player and blacklisted probably not eligible
"Threw a game" or "throwing games" may not be true for all four of these players, ie including Zimmerman, but all four were blacklisted for involvement in the business of manipulating baseball games for professional gambling purposes. That is not the only grounds for blacklisting players and I hope you don't automatically approve every blacklisting.

From memory I know of Ray Fisher, Benny Kauff, and Claude Hendrix as three who need attention. Fisher and Kauff were banned on grounds unrelated to the integrity of the game and Hendrix is a disputed case.

[jjpm74]

From memory I know of Ray Fisher, Benny Kauff, and Claude Hendrix as three who need attention. Fisher and Kauff were banned on grounds unrelated to the integrity of the game and Hendrix is a disputed case.

Ray Fisher will be a real test of the banned player=blacklisted rule.

Our 2003 eyes know that he was banned for poor reasons and reinstated 2 years before his death. Our 19something mind only knows Fisher was banned from baseball for violating a major rule. It'd help if we knew what the general attitude towards salary jumpers were during this era Re: Fisher.

On a separate note, why can't we adopt a similar policy to what the NBHOFM has adopted? We could declare players like Joe Jackson ineligible for the general elections and make them wait 20 years for the VC.

[AG2004]

I understand about fielding pct. but for that time frame all we have is that and range factor. My bigger question mark was with the mid career move to the OF so that Dave Brain a SS/3B who came over from St.L and then Tommy Sheehan could man 3B. With all that's been said about 3B being like 2B today it doesn't make sense that you would move a + 3B to make room for players that a century later look much like journeyman.

Outfield positions are not the same; a CF has about twice as much defensive value as a corner outfielder. The defensive value at center is about equal to the defensive value at second or third; when a typical team's fielding win shares are divided by position, each place gets about 14-16% of the credit. Leach was moved to center, not to one of the corner positions, so his overall defensive value remained about the same.

Looking at 1905: Brain was a right-handed hitter at third, while Ginger Beaumont was a left-handed hitter in center. In 1906, right-handed hitter Sheehan was at third, and Beaumont was still in center. In both seasons, Leach was splitting his time between 3B and CF.

In this light, Leach's move to the outfield makes sense. Beaumont and Brain/Sheehan were being platooned, and Leach's ability to play stellar defense at both 3B and CF made this platoon arrangement possible. No matter who came in, Leach's defensive value remained constant, since both position had similar value.

It also gave the Pirates flexibility in obtaining players. If they could get a better 3B than CF, Leach could fill center; if they could get a better CF than 3B, Leach could play third. There might have been one roster position to fill, but Pittsburgh could have filled it with someone from either of two positions. It made things a little easier.

----

My ballot:

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Tommy Leach
Hearman Long
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Bobby Wallace

[Freakshow]

- Youngest Elected Player: Amos Rusie – Age 30
That sould say Age 35. Rusie was born in May 1871, elected in late 1906.

[Paul Wendt]

mitigating afterthought: Yes, Vote Leach of course.

Outfield positions are not the same; a CF has about twice as much defensive value as a corner outfielder.
Maybe in 2008, not in 1908. And if it were true, LF-manager Fred Clarke might have been a contrarian in 1908.

Looking at 1905: Brain was a right-handed hitter at third, while Ginger Beaumont was a left-handed hitter in center. In 1906, right-handed hitter Sheehan was at third, and Beaumont was still in center. In both seasons, Leach was splitting his time between 3B and CF.

In this light, Leach's move to the outfield makes sense. Beaumont and Brain/Sheehan were being platooned, and Leach's ability to play stellar defense at both 3B and CF made this platoon arrangement possible.
Maybe platoon arrangement. I need more evidence. Beaumont suffered a miserable season in 1906, so bad that I guess an injury or illness.
No matter who came in, Leach's defensive value remained constant, since both position had similar value.
Agree, similar to each other (but not double the LF value, espy in PIT)

It also gave the Pirates flexibility in obtaining players. If they could get a better 3B than CF, Leach could fill center; if they could get a better CF than 3B, Leach could play third. There might have been one roster position to fill, but Pittsburgh could have filled it with someone from either of two positions. It made things a little easier.
Agree.
By the way, I have supposed that Pittsburgh probably got Vic Willis for Ginger Beaumont, supposed from the rough coincidence of teams, time, and stardom. No, not at all. They were Bucmates for one season 1906 and then the club "overtraded" Beaumont and 2B Claude Ritchey for 2B Ed Abbaticchio. They didn't get much better or younger, and probably reaped only a little net career value, considering Ritchey even up for Abbaticchio.