Albert Pujols' age

[Honus Wagner Rules]

SABR Matt inspired this thread :happy:. Officially, Pujols is 28 years old, born on January 16, 1980. Now, many people have claimed he is much older. In 2002, Baseball Propectus claimed Pujols is at least three years older based "according to some estimates". But in later reports they backed off that assertion.


Player Comments

2007

Very few players burst on the majors as fully-formed Hall of Famers. As this book was being written, Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn were elected to the Hall of Fame. While it`s possible there were some observers who felt certain by, say, 1983 or 1984 that they were looking at Hall of Famers in the making, there were undoubtedly just as many who saw Gwynn as a singles hitter with a bad body and Ripken as a guy who was too big for shortstop and would almost certainly be kicked over to third base as soon as someone better like Juan Bell came along. With Pujols it was clear almost right away what kind of player he was, which is why so many people expressed disbelief: They were seeing a player who, if he never grew, if he never peaked, if he just stayed right where he was, was going to be an annual MVP candidate. That`s almost exactly what happened, except that Pujols has been improving slightly each season. He had his best year yet in 2006, posting a career high WARP (12.9) despite missing 19 games with an oblique strain and other minor scrapes. That total is boosted by his stellar defense at first, an underrated aspect of his skill set. Perhaps the only question left to answer is whether or not he can take one more step forward and have a couple of otherworldly, inner-circle Hall of Fame seasons like those enjoyed by Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx. If it`s going to happen, it will be in the next few years.

2006

Absurdly great, and signed to a very favorable deal for the Cardinals. On the statistical anomaly front, check out Pujols` ABs for the last five years: 590, 590, 591, 592, 591. Only on a Tony LaRussa team could things be so rigidly organized. In terms of performance, only Barry Bonds compares. Pujols` line of .330/.430/.609 for the season is truly remarkable because he was suffering through plantar fasciitis for a good chunk of the season, and hitting a baseball without being able to plant your foot properly is exceptionally difficult. Even if there`s truth to the old rumor that he may be two years older than his listed age, Pujols is still capable of putting up Bonds-like numbers. He`s Mozart with a bat, a very smart baserunner, a plus defender at first base, and well-liked and respected in the community. For the city and the franchise, he`s the perfect superstar.

2005

I suppose writing the Barry Bonds comment would be more taxing in terms of the use of superlatives, but what do you say about this guy? In terms of career numbers compiled before age 25, Pujols ranks eighth in home runs, ninth in doubles and sixth in extra-base hits. Additionally, among those who logged at least 2,000 plate appearances before age 25, Pujols places third in SLG and ninth in OBP. In other words, stay tuned: he's a luminary in the making.

2003

If there’s something unfair, it’s that Pujols was labeled a defensive liability at third. He wasn’t Terry Pendleton (or Scott Rolen for that matter), but he was effective enough. The point isn’t particularly relevant now, of course. Assuming anyone still believes that Pujols is 23 and not around 27, you should have seen an attractive if mature-looking Mrs. Pujols in last year’s Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. Whatever his actual age, Pujols will be an asset with the Cardinals for the next four years, whether he divulges his age to the organization and signs a multiyear deal or not. He should achieve that projection handily.

2002

He's older than advertised, by at least three years according to some estimates. It was apparently a not-so-open secret in his college program, but the party line is that he “graduated early” from high school in the Dominican Republic. From a practical standpoint, who really cares? His age is most germane to issues such as his likely career totals, not whether he can help the Cardinals. Pujols can mash the ball and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. If he plays third base, he'll be the best third baseman in the National League in 2002.

2001

Albert Pujols is a very promising third-base prospect. It's probably early to call him grade-A, but he has one great year under his belt, a .324/.389/.585 performance at Peoria followed by a brief stint at Potomac in which he wasn't overmatched. He finished the season with three games in Memphis and will likely start the 2001 season at Double-A Arkansas. Pujols is not going to be a fast guy; he's already big at 205 pounds and has the frame of a power hitter. His defense is good enough that he can probably avoid the dreaded corner migration from third base to first base. This is someone to watch; he could be starting at a Cardinal corner sooner than anyone realizes.


BP got some facts wrong. Pujols didn't graduate from high school in the Domincan Republic. He graduated from high school in Independence, Missouri.

I have read lots of claims that Pujols is older than he claims. Yet, no one has yet to produce any documented evidence. So what say you, BBF?

[-Kyle-]

I remember hearing that he graduated from Missouri. He looks hispanic and since he has started off so well people are inclined to think that he has done what Tejada (and others before) did. I'll go with people don't realize that he is just a good player and they are quick to agree with these stereotypes that are common nowadays. Would anyone question him if he has been a backup? No...

[DodgerBlue8188]

Isn't he balding too? I know that happens at young ages for many but seems like it would only had evidence to support that claim.

[sturg1dj]

are they saying his body is aged like someone older or that he like other latin players faked his age?

I doubt either one

i was going to point out the fact he has been in the country long enough to be drafted instead of being a free agent...but that has been covered.

Danny Almonte did it, but it was at a young age and found out when he was still a kid. Wasn't it Furcal who it happened to in the bigs?

Anything is possible, but you would imagine it would have been made a big deal by now and someone would have proof.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Isn't he balding too? I know that happens at young ages for many but seems like it would only had evidence to support that claim.

From this 2008 photo it appears Albert is losing his hair. Agian, I don't think that's sufficient evidence. As you stated lots of men lose their hair at a young age.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2008/06/11/mlb-cardinals-pujols.html?ref=rss

[Honus Wagner Rules]

are they saying his body is aged like someone older or that he like other latin players faked his age?


I doubt either one
Some people claim that Pujols is older than his stated age of 28. Some believe he is 3-5 years older.

[sturg1dj]

looking at Pujol's career it would seem that faking his age would be counter-productive. I am not saying its out of the realm of possibility, just saying that would mean he faked his age to keep himself in high school longer? That doesn't really make sense, especially since he could have been drafted sooner and could have started earlier.


Someone like Furcal would fake his age so he could stay in one of the schools they have over there and be seen as a better prospect.....Pujols was drafted.



Pujols is my favorite player...so it pains me to say this

looking at how late he was drafted and his numbers in the minors one can only imagine how he got as good as he did so fast.

[NYMets523]

He definitely looks older. I think he is older than his official age. I think it's just 2 years, not 3-5.

looking at Pujol's career it would seem that faking his age would be counter-productive. I am not saying its out of the realm of possibility, just saying that would mean he faked his age to keep himself in high school longer? That doesn't really make sense, especially since he could have been drafted sooner and could have started earlier.

He might have started school when he was older. I myself am a year older than most people in my grade and I know of some other people in my grade who are around my age, as well.

[cardsfanatic]

Like has been stated by me a thousand times, after 9/11 the Homeland Security office cracked down on foreign birth certificates and tracked down legitamte birth certificates of all foreign born citizens. This included ballplayers and a lot of players saw their ages changed. Pujols was in the country at that time so his documents were vetted just like anyone else.

Now, I just know someone will say "soooo, Tejada just recently..."

Stop. Tejada's documents he filed with the US Government were correct. His drivers license was correct. He just fudged his age to MLB and they never checked it.

Is it possible this has happened with Pujols? Possibly. But with so much attention being paid to his age I have to believe SOMEONE out there trying to crack a story has looked up his drivers license online (since it's public domain) and other public documents.

I have a cousin who was going bald at 20 years old. That's hardly proof.

All of his documents check out according to the US Government. They may screw up a lot of things but when it comes to stuff like cutting and sending out checks on time and checking out information they're pretty good at it. People get their welfare checks on the same day every month and it's rare you can sneak much past the hounds if they're looking for it. And they've been looking at foreign birth certificates with a scornful eye for seven years now.

Until there's actual proof I'm taking his listed age as his real age.

Also, just looking at this logically and throwing facts to the wind... can anyone explain to me why someone with the talent of Pujols would purposefully stay in High School 3-5 years longer than he had to and shorten his MLB career by going to high school and college for several of his "prime" years?

[cardsfanatic]

Pujols is my favorite player...so it pains me to say this

looking at how late he was drafted and his numbers in the minors one can only imagine how he got as good as he did so fast.

Same can be said for Mike Piazza as well, no?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Same can be said for Mike Piazza as well, no?

Actually Piazza spent significant time in the minors. He was drafted in 1988 out of Miami-Dade College. He debuted in the majors late in the 1992 season at age 23. Pujols spent one season in the minors (2000).

[sturg1dj]

Same can be said for Mike Piazza as well, no?

I agree 100% and I have actually been pretty darn tough on Piazza.

Pujols played 1 year of minor league baseball at age 20 then made his debut at age 21

this means he was a 19 year old senior, which is an old senior. With his talent, why would he want to be a 20-24 year old senior in high school? This is not the same as a latin player in his home country trying to pass as a 16 year old kid instead of 19 in his baseball school...this is someone lying about his age to stay in an American High School longer. Makes no sense.

[sturg1dj]

Actually Piazza spent significant time in the minors. He was drafted in 1988 out of Miami-Dade College. He debuted in the majors late in the 1992 season at age 23. Pujols spent one season in the minors (2000).

Mike Piazza played only one year of minor league ball, unless you count small college ball as minor league...which I do not.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Mike Piazza played only one year of minor league ball, unless you count small college ball as minor league...which I do not.

No, Piazza played four seasons (387 games) in the minors, 1989-92.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Mike-Piazza.shtml

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I agree 100% and I have actually been pretty darn tough on Piazza.

Pujols played 1 year of minor league baseball at age 20 then made his debut at age 21

this means he was a 19 year old senior, which is an old senior. With his talent, why would he want to be a 20-24 year old senior in high school? This is not the same as a latin player in his home country trying to pass as a 16 year old kid instead of 19 in his baseball school...this is someone lying about his age to stay in an American High School longer. Makes no sense.

You forgot to count Albert's one season playing college ball at age 19. Pujols was 18 when he graduated from high school in 1998.

[sturg1dj]

No, Piazza played four seasons (387 games) in the minors, 1989-92.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Mike-Piazza.shtml

I stand corrected


your source is better than my source...haha

[sturg1dj]

You forgot to count Albert's one season playing college ball at age 19. Pujols was 18 when he graduated from high school in 1998.

thats twice baseballreference has let me down in one discussion....haha


where did he go to college?

do you have a link to stats?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

thats twice baseballreference has let me down in one discussion....haha


where did he go to college?

do you have a link to stats?

He went to Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, MO. I've been trying to find Pujols college stats for a while. No luck yet. I've checked the Maple Woods Community College website but there's no info there. I like to see his high school stats as well. On Pujols' wikipedia page it says that he batted .500 as a high school junior, .660 as a senior ,and .461 in his one college college season. I was going to go try the local newspapers to see if maybe they printed the stats.

[sturg1dj]

too bad he wasn't from a bigger city like New York. I found plenty on Lou Gehrig in HS and college from old New York Times articles.

[Berkman#17]

Pujols went to Maple Woods CC in Kansas City. He did play two years there. If you ever go to the field, there is no way you will NOT know that he played there. His face is painted on the left field fence, along with several other notes around the ball park that Albert was a "1998 and 1999 All-American" there. It's basically a large shrine to Albert, with a ridiculously placed hill in RF. (Think Houston but not by design, and 30 times more vertical).

The reason he was drafted so late was that after a showcase, scouts thought his power was from the metal bat and not himself. All he tried to do was hit linedrives and failed to hit any out, so they thought he was just a metal bat superstar.

I'm not indicting Pujols on his real age or the dreaded S word. But, it should be noted that MW is far from being called a "clean" program. I've heard a few juco coaches call it a "steroid factory", and things aren't run with integrity in mind. Looking at the size of some of the players when I played against them, I'm not so sure the claims were far off. These weren't just big bodied boys that had great genetics, they were friggin 19 year old MEN.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

too bad he wasn't from a bigger city like New York. I found plenty on Lou Gehrig in HS and college from old New York Times articles.

Interestingly, the Pujols family initially moved to NYC from the Dominican Republic in 1996. But they thought NYC was way too violent. So they moved to Independence, Missouri. Talk about polar opposites. :happy:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Pujols went to Maple Woods CC in Kansas City. He did play two years there. If you ever go to the field, there is no way you will NOT know that he played there. His face is painted on the left field fence, along with several other notes around the ball park that Albert was a "1998 and 1999 All-American" there. It's basically a large shrine to Albert, with a ridiculously placed hill in RF. (Think Houston but not by design, and 30 times more vertical).


I thought Albert was still in high school in 1998?


The reason he was drafted so late was that after a showcase, scouts thought his power was from the metal bat and not himself. All he tried to do was hit linedrives and failed to hit any out, so they thought he was just a metal bat superstar.

Another reason was apparently, Albert didn't have a great body at that age. According to this article.


One that got away

Scout recalls Red Sox passing on Pujols

By Gordon Edes
Boston Globe Staff
October 11, 2006

NEW YORK -- This is a story about how the Red Sox could have had Albert Pujols, the best righthanded hitter on the planet, came within minutes of drafting him, then at the last second passed.

``They were pretty close," Pujols confirmed yesterday on the eve of the National League Championship Series between his St. Louis Cardinals and the New York Mets, which opens tonight in Shea Stadium.

This NLCS features the only player in major league history to hit .300 with 30 home runs and 100 RBIs in his first six seasons in the big leagues. That would be Albert Pujols. Who could have belonged to the Red Sox. But they passed. At the last second.

``I remember [then-scouting director] Wayne Britton telling me a couple of years later, `Darn, we could have had Albert Pujols,' " said former Sox general manager Dan Duquette, reached yesterday by telephone. ``Ernie Jacobs was our scout, and liked him. That's what I know about Albert Pujols."

While you fetch a box of Kleenex, we'll introduce you to Ernie Jacobs.

``That was my guy," Jacobs said of Pujols. ``I should have had him."

In his past life, Jacobs was a homicide investigator for the Wichita (Kan.) Police Department, then he was assigned to the violent crimes and sex crimes unit. Among the cases he worked was that of the notorious BTK killer, Dennis Rader, who confessed to killing 10 women. ``When I got involved with it, it was already a `cold case,' " Jacobs said. ``He started killing women when I was a senior in high school."

In high school in Wichita, Jacobs was a shortstop, a good one with visions of playing in the big leagues. Then he fell in love and married Denise, who 30 years later remains his wife. ``That kind of threw me off that path," he said, ``but that's OK."

All those years he was working as a cop, he stayed close to baseball, coaching youth teams and college-age summer teams that competed in the ABC tournament in Wichita, one of the biggest amateur tournaments in the country. That's where he met Danny Doyle, the legendary Red Sox scout who signed Jim Lonborg, Roger Clemens, and Ellis Burks. ``He was interested in a couple of my kids," Jacobs said. ``That's how I met him.

``Baseball scouting was something I always wanted to do, and Danny Doyle trained me."

Jacobs was a bird dog for the Sox, a part-time scout. Then he retired from the police force and was hired by the Sox as a full-time scout. The year was 1999. There was a kid playing junior college baseball at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City. In his first game, playing shortstop, he turned an unassisted triple play and hit a grand slam. His name was Albert Pujols. He had moved to the area from the Dominican Republic when he was 16, the youngest in a family of 11 children.

Jacobs liked him. Not all the scouts did.

``First of all," Jacobs said, ``his body wasn't great back then. Plus, people weren't sure how old the guy was. You assumed what he told you was true, but he wasn't a great body, and his swing was a little long.

``But he had big-time power, and you can't walk away from that kind of power. You do your homework, you study his aptitude, you figure you can fine-tune his swing and get his body better. His hands were very good for his size, and he had a good arm, playing shortstop."

Jacobs sent in good reports on Pujols to the home office, and urged them to send a cross-checker.

``I rang the bell all year, `Come see this kid,' " said Jacobs. ``Wayne didn't send anybody in. I think what happened was, this was my first full year as a scout, and Albert didn't make the airplane talk. There were a couple of scouts who liked him, who thought he could go high, but there were a lot that didn't."

``Airplane talk"? That's Jacobs's term for the cross-checkers, the veteran scouts, who fly in to look at the players recommended by the area guys.

``I won't say that I thought he'd be the player that he has become," Jacobs said, ``but I liked him in the third or fourth round. That's where I liked him."

The Red Sox, with their first pick in the 1999 draft, selected Rick Asadoorian, an outfielder from Whitinsville, Mass. They had six picks before the fourth round. Brad Baker. Casey Fossum. Mat Thompson. Rich Rundles. Antron Seiber . . .

Jacobs's phone rang before the start of the 10th round.

``They called and told me they were going to draft Albert for me," Jacobs said. ``But there were a couple of stipulations. First of all, can he play third base for Lowell? I told them, `Sure he can.' Then they said, `He's got to be a quick sign.' I said, `We may have a little issue.' I remember the kid saying he wanted to sign for $100,000, $150,000. I had a feeling that it wasn't going to take that, but it might drag out all summer."

Jacobs tried to reach Pujols by phone. Pujols's wife, Deidre, answered, saying Albert wasn't home. She called back an hour and a half later, he said, and said she still hadn't reached him. By then it was too late. ``They told me that they were going to pass if he wasn't a quick sign," Jacobs said. ``The Cardinals took him three rounds later, and the rest is history."

Pujols said yesterday that he'd heard from his agent that the Sox were willing to pay him $50,000 -- ``more than anybody else" -- but wouldn't pay the extra $30,000 or so for his education. Jacobs said he doesn't think it ever got that far.

The Cardinals, after an original offer of $10,000, signed him for $60,000. ``I think he was worth it, don't you?" Jacobs said.

Less than two years later, the Red Sox signed Manny Ramírez, a free agent, for $160 million. Ramírez's first season with the Red Sox was 2001, the same year Pujols broke into the big leagues and hit .329 with 37 home runs and 130 RBIs. The Cardinals have been to the postseason in five of Pujols's six seasons. They made it to the World Series in 2004, when they were swept by the Red Sox.

In 2000, Jacobs's second full year as a scout, the Sox drafted one of his players on the 11th round, a senior shortstop out of Oklahoma City University, and signed him for $1,000. His name? Freddy Sanchez, who won the National League batting title for the Pittsburgh Pirates this season.

``I'm extremely tickled," Jacobs said. ``He's well-deserving."

But the thought of what might have been is never far away.

``I lost my Hall of Famer," said Jacobs, still scouting for the Sox, ``in my very first year."

[sturg1dj]

here is an article I found

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/mike_fish/news/2003/07/11/pujols/

Why on earth is Marty Kilgore spewing expletives over the phone line? You’d figure all would be right in his world. School is out for the summer at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, Mo., and Kilgore's former protégé, Albert Pujols, has evolved into the most dangerous offensive threat in baseball.

Take a vote right now, and Pujols is the runaway National League MVP. This after finishing second to Barry Bonds last year and claiming NL Rookie of the Year honors in 2001. As the All-Star break approaches, the Cardinals' left-fielder is even threatening to become the first Triple Crown winner since 1967.

All that aside, Kilgore goes ballistic when it comes to rumors about Pujols’ age -- he turned 23 last January -- and knucklehead scouts who goofed so badly that he was available when the St. Louis picked in the 13th round of the 1999 draft. The long wait brought but a modest $10,000 signing bonus (Pujols' current $900,000 salary still makes him one of the game’s best buys), while top picks were handed millions.

“They don’t know what the hell they’re doing here in the Midwest as far as drafting," rants Kilgore, the Maple Woods baseball coach. “There are some idiots here that think they know the game. It is damn ridiculous -- 13th round. This guy’s not getting paid money that some got that haven’t even stepped on the damn [major league] field yet."

But first things first. Why does Pujols’ age remain an industry-wide topic of conversation?

Well, ever since he arrived as a 16-year-old at Fort Osage High School in Independence, Mo. -- the home of President Harry S. Truman -- the age question has dogged Pujols like a bad cold. The kid was already close to 6-feet-3 and more physically developed than others his age. He had the stroke and power of a mature player.

And so the questions lingered, from high school to American Legion summer ball to Maple Woods to the big leagues.

“Anything people want to check, go back to the Dominican Republic and pull what they can pull," says Kilgore, who remains a close friend of Pujols'. “All I know is I’ve seen all the green cards and birth certificates -- and his word is good enough for me.

“I’ve been dealing with this ever since he got here. You had parents and kids complaining, questioning his age. Jealousy. Because we got a big strong kid that can do something. He’s got an accent -- they don’t understand him. Hell, nobody wanted him. Everybody wanted to hold him down. They still want to make an excuse for this guy being as great as he is.

“One of the greatest baseball players ever to put on a jockstrap and they don’t want to buy into it. What they don’t get is Albert’s life is so simple. He loves his wife [Deidre] and baseball. He doesn’t get sidetracked. If this kid stays healthy, in 15 years he can tell them all to go kiss his butt. Screw his age."

Kilgore staunchly vouches for Pujols' 23 candles.

“I mean 23 or 25, what difference does it make? But the fact is he’s 23," says Kilgore. “What ticks me off is it’s a character issue. He takes it that way and I take it that way. This is a personal slam on what he says."

Pujols’ high school coach, Dave Fry, and Phil Caldarella, a school district official and summer league coach, agree.

“I was around him every day at the school," Caldarella says. “He may look like a man, but he was just a kid."

Pujols played two years at Fort Osage, leading the team to a Missouri state championship his first spring. The school successfully petitioned for an extra year of eligibility in what would have been his senior season, but big Albert instead left for Maple Woods in January 1999. He played juco ball the spring before being drafted, earning All-America honors as a shortstop.

Where the 20 or so scouts who came to every game fouled up is the mystery. Pujols isn’t a five-tool player. He doesn’t run particularly well, lacks Vladimir Guerrero’s arm and will never bring home a Gold Glove. But he’s a hitter with slugger’s power and terrific instincts.

If this were a late-round pick who scuffled for years in the farm system, it might be easier to understand. But Pujols sped through the Cardinals’ system and is a statistical oddity in two-plus big league seasons: the only player in baseball history to bat .300, drive in 100 runs, score 100 runs and hit 30 home runs in each of his first two seasons.

And heading into the break, Pujols is on pace to shatter his own power numbers (26 home runs and 82 RBIs entering play Friday night) while leading the majors with a gaudy .365 average and the NL with 125 hits.

“I had scouts come to me the next year after the draft and tell me they didn’t turn him in [as a guy worth drafting]," says Kilgore, still fuming. “You got damn poor scouting, that is how you explain it. You have 100 guys who do their job and know what they’re doing and another 200 scouting each other."

At this point, Pujols' age and what a bunch of tired baseball guys thought is irrelevant. Whether he’s 23 or 25, Pujols can flat-out hit.

“The question of is he 23 ... " says Kilgore. "What the hell -- try and get him out, all right?"


according to this the age question has always been around him BECAUSE he always had an overdeveloped body. Wow, it seems like these sources keep contradicting each other...haha.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Another article from 2004 as to why scouts got it wrong on Pujols.


401 players taken before Pujols in '99

San Deigo Union-Tribune
October 26, 2004

ST. LOUIS – In the prehistoric period before cell phones became commonplace and e-mail went wireless, Jay Darnell would send his scouting reports to the Colorado Rockies as circumstances permitted.

"I remember pulling into a truck stop and leaving a voice mail," said Darnell, now a national cross-checker for the Padres. "I told them, 'Just in case something happens, I think this guy is going to hit for a lot of power.' "

The guy was Albert Pujols. The advice was ignored.

Pujols is the slugger who slipped beneath baseball's radar, the greatest player ever selected with the 402nd choice in the June amateur draft. He signed his first contract in 1999 with the St. Louis Cardinals for $60,000 and might have been a bargain at $60 million.

Long before he led the Cardinals into the World Series, Pujols was recognized throughout the industry as the big one that got away.

More than any player in a generation, Pujols has forced scouts to reevaluate their methods, their priorities and their eyeglass prescriptions. The Cardinals' first baseman is the first player to hit at least 30 home runs in each of his first four big league seasons and he is only the third player to reach 500 runs batted in during so short a span. The other two were Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. Not that the nation's scouts need to be reminded of that.

"For a while, I just thought I was hexed," said Dan Jennings, vice president of player personnel for the Florida Marlins. "I'd come in the room when he first got in the big leagues and it would be Pujols hitting a double, Pujols driving in a run. I'd say, 'God, I get the message.' You can make one bad decision and it will bite you forever."

Jennings was the Tampa Bay Devil Rays scouting director in the spring of 1999 when scout Fernando Arango started raving about this junior college shortstop in Kansas City.

Albert Pujols was known as Jose Pujols then. He was playing out of position at Maple Woods Community College, near Kansas City, and he was playing out of shape. Like many talented players with roots in the Dominican Republic, Pujols was suspected of being older than he claimed.

Nor did he meet the run-and-throw standards scouts have been trained to seek in amateur prospects. Darnell's May 14, 1999, scouting report, filed less than three weeks before the draft, described Pujols as "heavy legged," and observed that his throws "often tail and sink as fingers are not on top of the ball."

Yet with a bat in his hands, Albert Pujols was precocious and powerful. If you were paying attention, he held it.

"Guys that can hit are going to play," said Brad Kullman, director of major league operations for the Cincinnati Reds. "Our reports were that he had power and he was undisciplined at the plate – a free swinger. That's one of his strengths now – he's so disciplined."

Arango was on record early that Pujols would ultimately hit 40 home runs in a season. In his first four years in the majors, Pujols hit 37, 34, 43 and 46 homers.

"What I saw in him was tremendous athletic ability," said Arango, now the Latin American coordinator of the Milwaukee Brewers. "He just hit the ball with an impact that you didn't see every day. I went to a game at Maple Woods, and he hit two home runs and the sound off the bat sounded like cannon shots."

Arango's enthusiasm persuaded the Devil Rays to bring Pujols to Tropicana Field for a predraft tryout. The day, Jennings recalls, was a disaster. Based on his body type, Pujols was asked to perform in catching equipment, and reluctantly agreed.

"It wasn't very pretty," Jennings said. "Then we let him hit and he hit one ball in batting practice that went to the warning track, and no balls that went in the stands for a home run. He might as well have been Joe Smith. There was nothing that said this was a great player.

"We were blinded by our own eyes."

Arango says Pujols was fully capable of putting on a power show that day, but was primarily focused on scorching line drives. Less than a month after Arango's lobbying led nowhere, and the Cardinals were still able to pluck Pujols in the 13th round, the scout submitted his resignation.

"I was a little frustrated," Arango said. "Dan Jennings asked me the question if I left because of Pujols. To me, it was very simple. If I can't get a guy like that, even in the 10th round, maybe I should take a sabbatical from amateur scouting."

Herk Robinson, then the general manager of the Kansas City Royals, says the failure to find Pujols underneath his nose "may be the one that stings the most."

"Here's the kicker," Robinson said in an interview earlier this year. "We had someone in our engineering department here at Kauffman Stadium who actually lived with Albert for about three months. You can't get much more in your back yard than that."

Padres Scouting Director Bill Gayton, who was then with the Rockies, says some clubs were discouraged by unresolved questions about Pujols' midyear move from high school to junior college, his real age and his residency status. Looking back, a lot of due diligence never got done.

Gayton says the Pujols case reinforces the need to re-examine scouting decisions after the fact, to determine what one scout saw that another missed. Jennings says Pujols taught him to defer to his scouts when they are adamant about a player's ability.

"That was obviously the biggest mistake we made when I was in Tampa Bay," Jennings said. "If we had picked him in the ninth round, we'd look like geniuses."


So it seems that lots of teams had doubts about Pujols' body and his age. Yet no on actually didn't any fact checking to at least try to confirm his age. As for his "bad" body, Frank Thomas had the same doubts which caused him to go undrafted out of high school. Even after a brilliant college career at Auburn the White Sox were chided for drafting Thomas in the first round.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

here is an article I found

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/mike_fish/news/2003/07/11/pujols/




according to this the age question has always been around him BECAUSE he always had an overdeveloped body. Wow, it seems like these sources keep contradicting each other...haha.

It is kind of funny. In the articles I've posted the theme is the bad body he had as a teen. Also, this is from the May 2007 Muscle and Fitness article detailing his weight training program.


Mihlfeld, now Albert's full-time personal trainer (and training partner), remembers a young player with more potential than presence.

"He was around 205 pounds, long, lanky, but a little soft around the middle with some baby fat," says Mihlfeld, who coached Albert for a short time at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, Missouri. "He had good natural strength in his hands and forearms, but he didn't have any weight-training experience at all."

That changed in 1999 when Albert was signed in the free-agent draft and contacted Mihlfeld to help him get stronger for The Show.

"We took small steps," Mihlfeld says. "He wasn't very strong with the weights at first, but in the last three years, we've really started to go heavy. In the beginning, he was doing dumbbell bench presses with 35s and 40s. Now, he's throwing around 100s like cupcakes."

[Berkman#17]

Coulda swore the field said "98 and 99".

Website is saying just 99. Oh well. Can't be perfect.

[sturg1dj]

what this sounds like is people are trying to explain how he is this good at this age. But remember his rookie season where he hit .329...not many rookies do that regardless of age. Fewer do that with only 1 season in the minors. That would be shocking with a 27 year old rookie. So you can't look at his numbers and say he did it because he is older, because its not true.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

what this sounds like is people are trying to explain how he is this good at this age. But remember his rookie season where he hit .329...not many rookies do that regardless of age. Fewer do that with only 1 season in the minors. That would be shocking with a 27 year old rookie. So you can't look at his numbers and say he did it because he is older, because its not true.

I think this is the jist of the issue. It is true that few rookies do that. However, Pujols has proven to be a singular talent. As a hitter he's on par with Jimmie Fox, Joe DiMaggio, etc.

Let's assume that Albert is older than he claims. We do know some undisputable facts. He moved to the US in 1996. He excelled in baseball in high school and college in 1997-1999. So if he is older then it's safe to beleive that he had substantial baseball playing experience in the Domincan Republic to be such a great hitter in high school and college. Where did he play baseball in the Domincan Republic? Can we find out if he was playing baseball at an advanced level in, say, 1992-93. If he is 3-5 years older that would mean he was at 15-18 years old in 1992. He must have caught the attention of someone at that age if he had displayed great baseball talent. To me strong evidence for an older age would be eyewitness accounts of Pujols playing baseball in the Dominican Republic. If someone said, "Yeah, I saw Albert in 1993 and he was hitting bombs at that age." We would really need to know what Pujols was doing and what he looked like in the 1992-1995 timeframe.

[ipitch]

Would Albert really lie about his age? Nahhhh.

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Pujols/Pujols_bio.html
"Meanwhile, Albert was ready to meet another challenge, this one off the field. At a Latin dance club in Kansas City, he met a pretty 21-year-old named Deidre. Completely smitten, Albert lied about his age to get a date with her. When he eventually owned up to his fib, Deidre revealed a secret of her own. She had a daughter named Isabella who had been diagnosed with Down Syndrome. Albert bonded immediately with the infant, and Deidre marveled at the maturity of her teenage boyfriend."

[SABR Matt]

His documents filed with the US may be accurate, but his statistical record says he's lying to MLB about his age.

And I'm not just talking about his minor league stint. He went from being a good but unspectacular high school ballplayer to being a major league star in two years. That's very suspicious to me. But equally suspicious is the rapid decay in Pujols' fielding ability seen in the statistical record (I would argue that Andruw Jones is also likely to be older than he claims). Fielding skill is more predictable than batting statistics in terms of the big picture (although seasonal fielding value fluctuates just as much as seasonal batting value, the trends in fielding skill over multiple seasons are very predictable). Pujols has the fielding age of a 31 year old...not a 28 year old. I suspect his age-gap is about the same as Miguel Tejada's was...or Rafael Furcal's (who also blossomed way to fast).

[STLCards2]

His documents filed with the US may be accurate, but his statistical record says he's lying to MLB about his age.

And I'm not just talking about his minor league stint. He went from being a good but unspectacular high school ballplayer to being a major league star in two years. That's very suspicious to me. But equally suspicious is the rapid decay in Pujols' fielding ability seen in the statistical record (I would argue that Andruw Jones is also likely to be older than he claims). Fielding skill is more predictable than batting statistics in terms of the big picture (although seasonal fielding value fluctuates just as much as seasonal batting value, the trends in fielding skill over multiple seasons are very predictable). Pujols has the fielding age of a 31 year old...not a 28 year old. I suspect his age-gap is about the same as Miguel Tejada's was...or Rafael Furcal's (who also blossomed way to fast).

You could be right, but all of your evidence is very circumstancial.

Which statistical ecord are you refering to in regards to his fielding record? His OZR, +/-, ZR etc. are outstanding this year. Do you mean his fielding demise from a college SS to 3B to LF to 1B?

First you bring up his injury and how you think he will will not be the same, then the age thing. Again, you could end up being right, but you seem to have something against Albert. Is there something else going on here with you and Albert than age/health? Has the Cub' bandwagon thing gone to your head?:happy:

So he is 30 instead of 28. So what? That doesn't change what he has accomplished one bit. In fact, it is possible that since he is older, he will retire sooner, giving him fewer years to decline.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

The other hispanic players who have been accused of lying about their age have all come straight from Latin America to the U.S. to play baseball. Pujols, on the other hand, moved to the U.S. in '96 and went to high school and junior college in Missouri. He graduated high school in '98 and was drafted after one season at junior college. I personally think that would make it much harder for him to successfully lie about his age. I say he's actually 28.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

His documents filed with the US may be accurate, but his statistical record says he's lying to MLB about his age.

And I'm not just talking about his minor league stint. He went from being a good but unspectacular high school ballplayer to being a major league star in two years. That's very suspicious to me. But equally suspicious is the rapid decay in Pujols' fielding ability seen in the statistical record (I would argue that Andruw Jones is also likely to be older than he claims). Fielding skill is more predictable than batting statistics in terms of the big picture (although seasonal fielding value fluctuates just as much as seasonal batting value, the trends in fielding skill over multiple seasons are very predictable). Pujols has the fielding age of a 31 year old...not a 28 year old. I suspect his age-gap is about the same as Miguel Tejada's was...or Rafael Furcal's (who also blossomed way to fast).

That is simply untrue, Matt. Albert was a two time all-state high school player. That is hardly a description of a good but unspectacular high school player. Albert was a scary hitter in high school. In his senior year he was walked 55 times in 88 PAs. That speaks to the power as a hitter and the fear he instilled in his opponents. At Maple Woods CC he was a juco All-American. So describing Albert a good but unspectacular amatuer baseball players is not supported by the facts. Many scouts were unimpressed by Pujols simply because of their own foolish biases. They didn't like his body so they convinced themselves that he wasn't really that good a player based on that. As I said before Frank Thomas had the same bias held against him.

You may have a good point about his fielding, though. I've never read much about fielding performances and age. Do you have some links I can read?

[sturg1dj]

and also how do you figure his fielding is in decline?

he moved positions because the team needed him to move, not because he was a liability.

he was excellent at 1B this season and even passed his career high for assists even with a torn rotator cuff

[plask_stirlac]

If former dominant hitters are healthy enough to go out there, age doesn't matter that much. See: Alou, Manny, etc. Age won't be Pujols' main issue.

And remember how Zito was just 27... well that really helped.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If former dominant hitters are healthy enough to go out there, age doesn't matter that much. See: Alou, Manny, etc. Age won't be Pujols' main issue.

And remember how Zito was just 27... well that really helped.

The age issue is just an issue in terms of potential career performance. Pujols debuted in 2001 at a claimed age of 21. If that is really his age then he is comparable to someone like Joe DiMaggio as a hitter. If in fact he is older then his career arc will likely be different. If he is older then his chances of 500 HRs and 3,000 hits diminish, obviously.

[cardsfanatic]

His documents filed with the US may be accurate, but his statistical record says he's lying to MLB about his age.

And I'm not just talking about his minor league stint. He went from being a good but unspectacular high school ballplayer to being a major league star in two years. That's very suspicious to me. But equally suspicious is the rapid decay in Pujols' fielding ability seen in the statistical record (I would argue that Andruw Jones is also likely to be older than he claims). Fielding skill is more predictable than batting statistics in terms of the big picture (although seasonal fielding value fluctuates just as much as seasonal batting value, the trends in fielding skill over multiple seasons are very predictable). Pujols has the fielding age of a 31 year old...not a 28 year old. I suspect his age-gap is about the same as Miguel Tejada's was...or Rafael Furcal's (who also blossomed way to fast).

Pfffft, I guess Ted Williams was actually 30 when he was a rookie? Or how about Jimmie Foxx who hit the ground running in his first full year at like age 19? Fred Lynn and Mark McGwire as well. Frank Thomas? I mean, why can all of those players come right in at age 21-22 and hit the ground running but if Pujols does it, he's obviously older than he says?

Ridiculous.

Baseball fans drive me nuts. They herald guys like Ruth, Williams etc... but then act like no one like them can ever come along again. If someone does they are obviously A) older than they say or B) on steroids or something. I mean, do people truly believe that the "old days" cornered the market on truly remarkable talent? Ted Williams can do it, but Pujols can't. Ruth can do it, but Bonds can't.

Eh... this thread is officially full of stupid.

[willshad]

Pfffft, I guess Ted Williams was actually 30 when he was a rookie? Or how about Jimmie Foxx who hit the ground running in his first full year at like age 19? Fred Lynn and Mark McGwire as well. Frank Thomas? I mean, why can all of those players come right in at age 21-22 and hit the ground running but if Pujols does it, he's obviously older than he says?

Ridiculous.

Baseball fans drive me nuts. They herald guys like Ruth, Williams etc... but then act like no one like them can ever come along again. If someone does they are obviously A) older than they say or B) on steroids or something. I mean, do people truly believe that the "old days" cornered the market on truly remarkable talent? Ted Williams can do it, but Pujols can't. Ruth can do it, but Bonds can't.

Eh... this thread is officially full of stupid.

First of all, Its not that people say that no one can do it again, but its just that Bonds did things Ruth NEVER did(or that no one in the history of organized baseball ever did naturally)..such as becomse an astronomically better hitter at age 35 and beyond. If Bonds was that good at age 25 and did it consistently, then it would be a different story. Second of all, Pujols isnt even in Williams' league as a hitter, so that comparison is ridiculous. The suspicions do not arise from the quailty of his hitting; there have been a great deal of hitters in the past 15 years that have been just as good as hitters as Pujols at their best; it is the fact that there is a lot of evidence he may be older than his actual age. Ted Williams didnt have the scalp of a 45 year old at age 28. There werent guys like Tejada around during Williams' time admitting they lied about their age. There wasnt steroids around at that time either. Neither Bonds nor Pujols has had anywhere close to a typical career progression.
So its not that people dont think it can ever happen again, its more that the circumstances are more suspicious.

[cardsfanatic]

Second of all, Pujols isnt even in Williams' league as a hitter, so that comparison is ridiculous.


Ummm, ok. WARP, EQA and just basic rate stats don't support that at all. Williams was better but Pujols is definitely in his league.


The suspicions do not arise from the quailty of his hitting


Could have fooled me with this thread, the post I replied to and all threads like it on BBF.


it is the fact that there is a lot of evidence he may be older than his actual age. Ted Williams didnt have the scalp of a 45 year old at age 28.


Soooo, I guess Matt Hasselback lied about his age to? Guy was balder than Pujols in freakin COLLEGE. Same with Terry Bradshaw. Or to change the pace, Ron Howard (of Happy Days fame).

All guys who lost their hair extremely early. That's hardly proof.


There werent guys like Tejada around during Williams' time admitting they lied about their age.


Ahhh, guilt by association. And here I was thinking this only lended itself to Presidential politics. You know, this may shock you but because one guy from the dominican lied about his age it doesn't mean all people have. And with the excess scrutiny that has been cast on Pujols I highly doubt that elephant would still be in the closet.


Neither Bonds nor Pujols has had anywhere close to a typical career progression.


Ok, are you completely daft? I just list a ton of guys, Ted Williams included, who had the SAME progression as Pujols. Williams started out young as an all-world hitter and he stayed consistent through out. How is that any different than Pujols?


So its not that people dont think it can ever happen again, its more that the circumstances are more suspicious.

Yet again, could have fooled me. Any good player today = steroids. Now they even lie about their age so they can debut in the MLB at a later date. Something no one seems to want to answer is what is the benefit for Pujols to lie about his age?

He was in the US, he WAS subject to the draft... why on earth would a guy deliberately lie about his age so he can stay in HS longer, in college longer etc...? It makes no sense. For a kid from the Dominican looking to sign with an MLB team as a free agent it makes perfect sense. A team is more apt to take a chance on a 23 year old prospect -- not so much if they're 30 with no pro ball experience. For Pujols who _was_ drafted there was absolutely zero benefit for him to slow down his entry into the MLB.

Explain that to me. How did he benefit from getting to the MLB later than he could have? According to you people he reduced his "earning years" by 3-5 years so he could stay in high school. Makes perfect sense to me!

[willshad]

What you are forgetting is that at that point Pujols didnt KNOW he would make it to the majors. Of course it would be to his benefit to say he was younger, because it would give him more time to develop and make it possible to reach the major leagues. Say he didnt improve that fast, and didnt make the majors until age 24 or so....if he was really 4 years older that would make him then 28...and all hope of a major league career almost gone.
I am not stating that any individual suspicious element is 'proof' he lied about his age..merely that combined they make him at least a suspect for doing so. If he was JUST balding at an early age, or if he JUST happened to be an MVP quality hitter at age 20, or if he JUST happened to be Dominican, then there wouldnt be an issue. You dont see people saying A-rod, or Matt Williams or Jose Reyes lied about their age. It is much like the case that Sammy Sosa did steroids...no 'proof' but enough combined evidence to make him a suspect.
In the grand scheme of things (due to his rapid improvement), however, it wont really matter if he is 28 or 32, because he will go to the hall of fame anyway. It will probably HELP him rate-stat wise if he is older, because it gives him less decline years left before he is finished. Does it really make a difference if he ends up with 500 career home runs or 620 career home runs?

[The Splendid Splinter]

Lets see here... Figured I would join in on this debate.

First of all, Its not that people say that no one can do it again, but its just that Bonds did things Ruth NEVER did(or that no one in the history of organized baseball ever did naturally)..such as becomse an astronomically better hitter at age 35 and beyond.

Yes, that's true and now we know why and how he got that good at that age. What does this have to do with Pujols though? Pujols is 28, not 35 and it's not like Pujols just astronomically gotten better last year or this year even (even though this year could be the start of his prime IMO).

If Bonds was that good at age 25 and did it consistently, then it would be a different story.

Bonds was ALMOST that good (just as good as Pujols) at age 25 (posted a 170 OPS+) that he posted back to back 200+ OPS+ at age 27/28. Then stayed consistent (basically 170+ OPS+) until he was 36 and again... we won't go into that as we know what happened. Pujols hasn't had a 200 OPS+ season yet, but he has been consistently very good in his whole career so far. Again, what does this have to with Pujols and his age even though he hasn't had a weird peak or unusual seasons? He's just one of those guys who started off great and sustained a high peak so far. He's isn't the only one who done that.

Second of all, Pujols isnt even in Williams' league as a hitter, so that comparison is ridiculous.

Yeah that's true, but again... who is in Williams' league as a hitter? Maybe 5 at most. At least Pujols is close though. William is a case where he started great and sustained an amazing peak til he retired basically at age 41. I would say the comparison isn't that good, but I wouldn't say it's ridiculous though (because they both started great).

The suspicions do not arise from the quailty of his hitting; there have been a great deal of hitters in the past 15 years that have been just as good as hitters as Pujols at their best;

Name them then... I'll give you some (5) right off the bat. Frank Thomas, Bagwell, Manny Ramirez, Barry Bonds, McGwire. Then again, what do you mean at their best? Do you mean by just 1 year being their career year, then you're right (there are a lot of them). Do you mean by prime years? Again... how many years? Those 5 guys I named had as good or better peak as Pujols and just as long as well. Name others who had just as good peak as Pujols in at least 6 years. It depends on what you mean by at their best.

it is the fact that there is a lot of evidence he may be older than his actual age. Ted Williams didnt have the scalp of a 45 year old at age 28.

Really? This is like the worst piece of evidence you can use. My older brother (age 26) and my best friend (23) has a scalp like Pujols. I have another friend who is 23 that has all grey hair, like literally all GREY. Where are the evidence and I mean like hard evidence?

There werent guys like Tejada around during Williams' time admitting they lied about their age. There wasnt steroids around at that time either.

How do you know that? Do you have hard evidence? A good case that someone could have been lying about his age was Satchal Paige... Just saying that you can't say that back then they didn't lie about their age when there might some people who actually did that. OK, why bringing up steroids here? Pujols doesn't have any evidence against him about steroids. We can assume, but don't forget... assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

Neither Bonds nor Pujols has had anywhere close to a typical career progression. So its not that people dont think it can ever happen again, its more that the circumstances are more suspicious.

Yeah, you're very right on this. Dead on actually. They didn't have a typical career progression. Could that be because they were GREAT and all time players? Again, Pujols is 28 and could become like Frank Thomas in the 2nd half of his career and by then nobody will care how old he is or being suspicious.


Willshad- I just saw your last post... Wouldn't every single player that get drafted didnt know if they were going to make it to the majors???

Let go by your situation that you just put. Say he did say he was 20 (but really 24) and didn't make it to the majors until he was 24 and they found out he was 28. We all know he went to high school for 2 years, college and minor a year each so that's 4. That means he came into this country when he was 20 and went into high school?? I think that he wouldn't be able to go to high school because he's too old. Wouldn't that help him have a more developed body since he was older than everyone else, but the scouts said he didn't??? Your situation doesn't make sense for Pujols.

The only way it would benefit him is if he said that he was like 17 or 18 instead of 19 when he got drafted (like Tejada/Furcal/etc...).

Here you go... a little something on high school and age.
"In general, students over 19 attend alternative classes to receive a high school diploma or General Educational Development (GED) certificate. State laws vary on the cut-off age for students to receive free public education services. Many states have adult high schools for people generally 19 and over. Students can stay in high school past the age of 18 if it is deemed appropriate. They cannot stay past a certain age depending on the state."

[The Splendid Splinter]

I am not stating that any individual suspicious element is 'proof' he lied about his age..merely that combined they make him at least a suspect for doing so. If he was JUST balding at an early age, or if he JUST happened to be an MVP quality hitter at age 20, or if he JUST happened to be Dominican, then there wouldnt be an issue. You dont see people saying A-rod, or Matt Williams or Jose Reyes lied about their age. It is much like the case that Sammy Sosa did steroids...no 'proof' but enough combined evidence to make him a suspect.
In the grand scheme of things (due to his rapid improvement), however, it wont really matter if he is 28 or 32, because he will go to the hall of fame anyway. It will probably HELP him rate-stat wise if he is older, because it gives him less decline years left before he is finished. Does it really make a difference if he ends up with 500 career home runs or 620 career home runs?

I can see where you're going with this. With all of the things about him that you could suspect his age. You're going the route of Sosa with steroids. The one thing about Pujols that makes him different and more credible is that he came to the US as a teenager and stayed in the US for a few years before he got drafted. Instead of coming straight from DR to US and playing in the minors.

IMO, I'm kinda in Wade's boat where that he did overdevelop due to his rapid improvement that I think he might decline earlier than other great players (like Frank Thomas or Jimmie Foxx). I hope that I'm wrong and he plays til he's 40. Either way, he's an amazing player and a HoFer. It just kinda make me sad that someone need to say things like his age isn't right or figure out reasons (good/bad/how/why/etc...) why some of these players are sooo good. I don't hear anybody saying anything about A Rod though.

[cardsfanatic]

What you are forgetting is that at that point Pujols didnt KNOW he would make it to the majors. Of course it would be to his benefit to say he was younger, because it would give him more time to develop and make it possible to reach the major leagues. Say he didnt improve that fast, and didnt make the majors until age 24 or so....if he was really 4 years older that would make him then 28...and all hope of a major league career almost gone.


I don't see it. What benefit is it to him to hit inferior pitching? Since when has HS and College pitching prepared anyone for the MLB? The guy was subject to the draft so he had 6 "cheap" years to start his career. Why would a guy waste years playing High School ball and not getting paid when it's every benefit for him to get into the minors, hone his skills and start his clock? Basically what you people are saying is Pujols strategically planned for his arb years to end when he was 32? Post-Prime? What idiot would do such a thing? Basically all of his highly productive prime earning and producing years would have been arb years had St. Louis not given him a deal outside of arbitration.


It is much like the case that Sammy Sosa did steroids...no 'proof' but enough combined evidence to make him a suspect.


And see, that's BS too. I'm about the furthest thing from a Sammy fan as you'll find but it wouldn't take a very long search to find me supporting that guy in steroid talks. Like I said, baseball fans drive me insane with all of the steroids talk etc...

Basically, there are a few sacred cows people slobber over like Maddux, Griffey and Big Hurt. Everyone else? If they're good, they're "suspected" steroid users. Or for Pujols he has the double whammy. He's actually 32 AND a steroid user. Because no one could be that good starting out and be all natural. Well, except Frank Thomas who oddly A) had a great body when he was young and was filled out JUST like Pujols at a young age and B) started out fast and furious like Thomas.

Oh, and a shout out to the other guy talking about fielding? Well, Big Hurt's fielding sure went in the tank quick. So can we assume he was actually 34 when he debuted?

I know I go to extremes (34, etc...) but it's just to illustrate how ridiculous some of you guys are. If I posted a thread like this about Big Hurt or Griffey and accused them of lying about their age or taking steroids because of their rapid development at very young ages, you'd see an avalanche of scruity thrust upon me. I know, I've done it before. Just to prove a point. I applied the same arguments against guys like Griffey (who broke down at an early age and excelled at a young age), Big Hurt who was huge and had great years and broke down early) etc... and you should have seen the storm that brought. But it's the _SAME_ evidence for other players which proves they used PED's etc... but oh no, not the guys we like. They're above suspicion. ;)

What is "proof" one guy is on steroids isn't uniformly applied to players you guys seem to like. What is "proof" one guy is older than he says isn't uniformly applied to players you like. I can list several guys that have career arcs just like Pujols. I could probably find 100 if I looked through the history books. If not more. I guess they were all PED users and older than they say.

Lost in all of this is despite his age -- whatever, we'll never agree so let's just drop that much -- it takes superb talent to go to the MLB and own like him after 1 year of minor league ball. 21, 24, 26, 28... at the end of the day, at any age it takes spectacular talent to do what he has done. I don't see how being "older" helps him achieve anything, though. It's obvious he's a rare talent. And an indisputable fact for _ALL_ of the All-Time Greats is it didn't take them long to distinguish themselves as rare talents. They universally busted out at a very young age. That's part of being "rare".

[cardsfanatic]

Yeah that's true, but again... who is in Williams' league as a hitter? Maybe 5 at most. At least Pujols is close though. William is a case where he started great and sustained an amazing peak til he retired basically at age 41. I would say the comparison isn't that good, but I wouldn't say it's ridiculous though (because they both started great).


I must be in a different reality or something. Here is what I said.

Ted Williams and Jimmie Foxx (in his first full season) hit the ground running and never looked back. At an extremely early age. That is no different than Pujols.

So, perhaps you can tell me why saying that is "ridiculous."

Was Ted Williams better than Pujols? Certainly. But if you look at any metric list and the top all-time, you'll find Ted Williams and Albert Pujols in the top 7 of nearly every one of them. So, I don't even see how it'd be ridiculous if I were comparing them talent wise too. Williams is better but Pujols isn't in his league? Come on. What the hell... is Ted Williams league Babe Ruth. The end?

You go top 7 in nearly any stat worth it's salt and Pujols is right there with Williams. Ted Williams was better than Lou Gehrig too... but would you say the Ironhorse wasn't in his league? He's sandwiched right between Williams and Pujols on those lists.

When someone says "not in his league" I expect to see someone comparing say, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose. Two great players but one is infinitely better than the other. A huge gap between them. The fact Pujols is in the top 10 of any worthwhile rate stat and advanced metric pretty much puts him on the short list with nearly anyone to play the game. I'd never say he was BETTER than Williams but it's not like he makes Pujols look like a sick child, either.

[willshad]

I must be in a different reality or something. Here is what I said.

Ted Williams and Jimmie Foxx (in his first full season) hit the ground running and never looked back. At an extremely early age. That is no different than Pujols.

So, perhaps you can tell me why saying that is "ridiculous."

Was Ted Williams better than Pujols? Certainly. But if you look at any metric list and the top all-time, you'll find Ted Williams and Albert Pujols in the top 7 of nearly every one of them. So, I don't even see how it'd be ridiculous if I were comparing them talent wise too. Williams is better but Pujols isn't in his league? Come on. What the hell... is Ted Williams league Babe Ruth. The end?

You go top 7 in nearly any stat worth it's salt and Pujols is right there with Williams. Ted Williams was better than Lou Gehrig too... but would you say the Ironhorse wasn't in his league? He's sandwiched right between Williams and Pujols on those lists.

When someone says "not in his league" I expect to see someone comparing say, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose. Two great players but one is infinitely better than the other. A huge gap between them. The fact Pujols is in the top 10 of any worthwhile rate stat and advanced metric pretty much puts him on the short list with nearly anyone to play the game. I'd never say he was BETTER than Williams but it's not like he makes Pujols look like a sick child, either.


The gap is a lot larger when you consider that Pujols has only played 8 seasons. His rate stats will go down a great deal by the time he retires (even moreso if he really is 28 as opposed to 31 or 32). He will likely end up with rates similiar to Frank Thomas or to Manny Ramirez in a best case scenerio.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have always thought Pujols was older than his stated age. I'm beginning to think otherwise; if he's older, he's one, maybe two years older, at the very most.

It is uncommon for a player to break into the majors at the level of performance of Pujols' rookie year. It is not uncommon at all, however, for a player who is playing at the level of the inner circle of the HOF to break in at age 21 as Pujols did, so he may well be as old as his stated age. Pujols is clearly one of the greatest players ever to play the game, at least in terms of peak value, and that's what one would expect from a player who's among the greatest that ever played. Pujols projects out to be one of the top 25 players ever to play the game, and his current record is not out of line with that at all.

[stejay]

I think he is his official age. It would have surely come out by now, officially, that he is older than he is. Nothing like that stays hidden for long in American society.

[Francoeurstein]

I sure hope he is the age everyone thinks he is :(. I was counting on him to beat Barry Bond's record cleanly.

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm cynical about things like this. If a guy's too good to be true, statistically, he probably is, especially in an era like ours.

[STLCards2]

I'm cynical about things like this. If a guy's too good to be true, statistically, he probably is, especially in an era like ours.

I don't know how he is "too good to be true." In fact, despite all of the steroid use, outside of Bonds, not a single person in the steroid era has come close to approaching the season by season OPS+ numbers that Cobb, Hornsby, Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle and Willimas did. What Albert is doing - about 170 OPS+ a season is on par with what you would expect from the top hitters of an era - certainly not out of line from the OPS+'s of Thomas, Mays, Aaron, etc. So, which stats are being put up that are "too good to be true?" The Great Hitters put up 170 OPS+ season all- the time. Its not like Albert is putting up 220 OPS+ seasons.

Unless you believe that older players were innately better, and nobody could ever dare to challenge the old greats as hitters, than it stands to reason that there would be a few guys in every era which put up great numbers. Albert is one of those guys.

[sturg1dj]

I don't know how he is "too good to be true." In fact, despite all of the steroid use, outside of Bonds, not a single person in the steroid era has come close to approaching the season by season OPS+ numbers that Cobb, Hornsby, Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle and Willimas did. What Albert is doing - about 170 OPS+ a season is on par with what you would expext from the top hitters of an era - certainly not out of line from the OPS+'s of Thomas, Mays, Aaron, etc. So, which stats are being put up that are "too good to be true?" The Great Hitters put up 170 OPS+ season all- the time. Its not like Albert is putting up 220 OPS+ seasons.

Unless you believe that older players were inately better, and nobody could ever dare to challenge the old greats as hitters, than it stands to reason that there would be a few guys in every era which put up great numbers. Albert is one of those guys.

to play Devil's Advocate I would like to point out looking at similarity scores the player Pujols is most similar to is Joe DiMaggio.

prior to the steroid era beginning (the steroid era when defined by the media, not by when players started using which was much earlier) no player even approached numbers this high.

These players include Frank Thomas who I am not saying used steroids, but am pointing out is part of that era.

[STLCards2]

to play Devil's Advocate I would like to point out looking at similarity scores the player Pujols is most similar to is Joe DiMaggio.

prior to the steroid era beginning (the steroid era when defined by the media, not by when players started using which was much earlier) no player even approached numbers this high.

These players include Frank Thomas who I am not saying used steroids, but am pointing out is part of that era.

What about Manlte?

Frank Thomas had better OPS+ numbers than Pujols - until about his 8t-9th full season. Bonds put up 200+ OPS seasons in the early 90's too.

I think it has been proven that OPS+ is a little harder to keep high in low-offensive eras. So a 170 now might be like a 160 in the '60s - early 80's. Many guys, from mays to Aaron, Allen to Schmidt were well in that range during their primes.