5th Greatest 19th Century Hitter

[Bill Burgess]

Congratulations to Roger Connor, for winning our 4th Greatest Hitter of the 19th Century! He won 6 of our 16 votes (37%). Ross Barnes/Billy Hamilton both received 3 votes each, for 18% each.

The 5th round for Greatest 19th Century Hitter is now open. It will close when we receive at least 15 voters.

1. Cap Anson
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Roger Connor
5.

As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, peak, longevity, special skills, etc. Thanks, guys.

We are now ONLY voting for the 5th Greatest 19th Century hitter.
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Form Chart:

Catchers:
Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Moses Fleetwood Walker, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Moses Fleetwood Walker, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong, Connie Mack.

1B
Joe Start, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

2B
Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville, Bobby Lowe.

SS
George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

3B:
Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

LF
Harry Stovey, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

CF:
Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, George Gore, Jimmy Ryan, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Ollie Pickering, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Pete Browning, Mike Griffin

RF
Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

[Brad Harris]

By "hitter" do you mean "offensive player" or do you mean "non-pitcher"?

Also, is the greatest 19th Century hitter based on what he did only in the 19th Century? If so, that would be consistent with the typical "greatest [Insert Team Here]" polls as those tend to include only what a player did in a certain uniform. Also, consider when MLB voted for its All Century Team. Imagine if it's spring of 1900 and the National League did an All Century Team for the previous 30+ years of professional baseball. Isn't that what "greatest 19th Century hitter" should be about?

Just want to know the parameters of the project before weighing in. Thanks!

[Brad Harris]

Highest Career OPS+, 1871-1899, min. 3000 PA

OPS PA Player
170 7653 Dan Brouthers
162 5315 Pete Browning
161 3411 Dave Orr
153 8837 Roger Connor
150 6457 Ed Delahanty
150 4009 Charley Jones
146 6470 Sam Thompson
144 6524 Billy Hamilton
143 4500 Joe Kelley
143 4149 Bill Joyce
143 6832 Harry Stovey
143 4720 Tip O'Neill
142 3244 Ed Swartwood
141 5764 Jesse Burkett
141 11319 Cap Anson
141 5302 Henry Larkin
139 5010 Denny Lyons
138 3912 Willie Keeler
138 6455 King Kelly
137 6716 Mike Tiernan
135 3412 Jake Stenzel
135 6104 George Gore
135 3290 Fred Carroll
134 5143 Oyster Burns
134 9047 Jim O'Rourke

* Italics indicates player was active in the 20th Century.

[Bill Burgess]

By "hitter" do you mean "offensive player" or do you mean "non-pitcher"?

Also, is the greatest 19th Century hitter based on what he did only in the 19th Century? If so, that would be consistent with the typical "greatest [Insert Team Here]" polls as those tend to include only what a player did in a certain uniform. Also, consider when MLB voted for its All Century Team. Imagine if it's spring of 1900 and the National League did an All Century Team for the previous 30+ years of professional baseball. Isn't that what "greatest 19th Century hitter" should be about?

Just want to know the parameters of the project before weighing in. Thanks!
Tough but fair questions, Sir Brad. I want to be fair to the hittes whose careers split the dividing line.

So, I think Willie Keeler should qualify, even though half his career fell after the cut-off line. Otherwise, he wouldn't qualify for anything.

The majority of their prime should be before 1900 though. So, Lajoie, Crawford would not qualify, but Keeler should.

By hitter I mean non-pitchers. Position players.

It is perfectly acceptable to use players who played into the 1900's, as long as they played their best seasons in the 1800's.

Such players would include: George Davis, Willie Keeler, John McGraw, Bobby Lowe, Jimmy McAleer.

Should not use players with only 2-3 yrs., such as Nap Lajoie, Sam Crawford.

[Brad Harris]

My list, more or less in order:

1. Jim O'Rourke
2. Buck Ewing
3. Deacon White
4. Paul Hines
5. George Davis
6. Bill Dahlen
7. Billy Hamilton
8. George Wright
9. Jesse Burkett
10. Ross Barnes
11. George Gore
12. Monte Ward
13. King Kelly
14. Joe Start
15. Hardy Richardson
16. Harry Stovey
17. Ezra Sutton
18. Willie Keeler
19. Hughie Jennings
20. Hugh Duffy
21. Dave Orr
22. Lip Pike
23. Cupid Childs
24. Cal McVey
25. Charlie Bennett

I am voting for Jim O'Rourke though I do not see him in the poll. Are we restricted to only voting for those in the poll?

[Brad Harris]

Jimmy Collins - Played 5 years of a 14-year career in the 19th Century. Not only did he play more seasons after the turn of the century, his best seasons were from 1900 on. Shouldn't be eligible, IMHO.

Burkett, Keeler, Davis and Dahlen all had either more years and/or more career value on the earlier half of the line. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other "split" cases who are really justifiable in this poll unless we're going to go past the top 20-25 players at some point.

[Bill Burgess]

Jimmy Collins - Played 5 years of a 14-year career in the 19th Century. Not only did he play more seasons after the turn of the century, his best seasons were from 1900 on. Shouldn't be eligible, IMHO.

Burkett, Keeler, Davis and Dahlen all had either more years and/or more career value on the earlier half of the line. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other "split" cases who are really justifiable in this poll unless we're going to go past the top 20-25 players at some point.
Thanks for the head's up, Brad. I hadn't looked anyone up. Just went with my memory.

But Jimmy Collins is a good case and we shouldn't be using him. Can't even remember what made me associate him with the 19th Century. Should have looked him up. Shame on ME.

[Brad Harris]

No problemo. If someone's eligible for this project, then I'll consider that person. I've got no interest in imposing my own standards on the project. I was just raising the question. IMO Collins isn't a "half-and-half" kind of candidate (like Davis or Keeler, for example).

Real quickly: are we able to vote for players not already in the poll? I'd like to register a vote for O'Rourke, if we are.

[Bill Burgess]

Real quickly: are we able to vote for players not already in the poll? I'd like to register a vote for O'Rourke, if we are.
Not only are you allowed to vote for hitters not included in the from chart, but you are invited to offer players to include in the form chart.

My policy is to include anyone that anyone wants included. It's only a Form Chart, a visual aid to assist our memories.

[Bill Burgess]

I added Jim O'Rourke.

[KCGHOST]

I'll go with Slidin' Billy.

[Bill Burgess]

We have achieved our requisite 15 ballots, but its a tie. Let's go on to around 20 ballots and see where we stand then. OK?

[Bill Burgess]

We need more ballots to break the tie cleanly.

[Brad Harris]

If it helps, I'll rescind my vote for O'Rourke and cast one for Hamilton instead.

[Bill Burgess]

If it helps, I'll rescind my vote for O'Rourke and cast one for Hamilton instead.
What? Election fraud on the Fever?? There will be no stuffing the ballot box while I'm in charge of running things, Brad. :laugh :waving

We are not in a hurry. We will sit tight, have some patience and await developments. :nod:

[RuthMayBond]

We need to shoot the people who voted for Keeler ;)

[Bill Burgess]

C'mon, let's go, my brothers. Let's get some more Keeler votes in here.

Please disregard the crazies who've broken through our initial lines of defense on Fever. The barbarians are at the gates. Please. Form a secondary line of defense.

[ItsOnlyGil]

I'm thinking than yet another first baseman needs some recognition here. Although Orr is a deserving candidate, my recommendation is Stovey.
Harry started homerun seasons in the double digits with his 14 in 1883; and followed with five subsequent double digit seasons over the following eight years. But he had no runaway on the lifetime career HR record in the works. And when he slacked off in the mid-1880s, Dan Brouthers passed him!
Harry picked up the pace around the close of the decade and regained the career lead, which he held until his retirement. Roger Connor then took it over and held until the 1920s.
To me, this little adventure set the pace for whatever it is that we have now.

Is Harry Stovey the fifth best player of the 19th century?
Why not?

[AstrosFan]

I missed Connor on the already elected list. I'd like to switch to Pete Browning please. And I agree Stovey should be on the next ballot.

[Bill Burgess]

I missed Connor on the already elected list. I'd like to switch to Pete Browning please. And I agree Stovey should be on the next ballot.
Oh great. Now we have a 3-way tie for 1st place. Sheesh.

We need more ballots to break our impasse.

Does anyone want to ask Jalbright to vote here? Or Brian McKenna?

[Beady]

Well, it won't help break the tie, but I'll vote for Deacon White, the most valuable position player through most of the 1870's.

I base that statement on no very sophisticated statistical analysis, and I don't think sophisticated statistical analysis is needed. In his prime, White was about as good a hitter as anyone in the game, and he was generally recognized as the best catcher at a time when catcher was a particularly grueling and important position, even more so than in later years. As good at bat as the best hitters, and the best defender at the most important position: that sounds like the most valuable player of the decade to me.

White is mostly remembered as a third baseman, but he didn't take up that position regularly until he was 33 and past his best years, although still a very good player. Johnny Bench was the same age when he moved to third base, the real difference between him and White being that White made the transition successfully and Bench failed.

The obvious 19th century comparison to White is Ewing, another excellent offensive player and fine catcher. Is White really superior to Ewing? I think so but wouldn't bet my life on it. I know that if we are given the choice between Ewing and White, each in his prime, I'll let you take the first pick and be very happy getting the other one. Since Ewing is a lot better remembered than White, I'm voting for him, anyway.

[RuthMayBond]

Is White really superior to Ewing? I think so That noise that everyone just heard, was Burgess choking

[Brad Harris]

So AF can switch to Browning, but I can't switch to Hamilton? If I didn't know better, I'd swear your advocacy for Keeler had something to do with that. ;)

[Bill Burgess]

So AF can switch to Browning, but I can't switch to Hamilton? If I didn't know better, I'd swear your advocacy for Keeler had something to do with that. ;)
Oh, no. He had voted for other, meaning Roger Connor, not realizing that Connor had already been elected.

You had actually voted for a perfectly acceptable candidate. In fact, I added Jim O'Rourke specifically for you. I'm not cheating yet.

[Bill Burgess]

That noise that everyone just heard, was Burgess choking
Part choking, part crying.

[RuthMayBond]

Oh great. Now we have a 3-way tie for 1st place. Sheesh.

We need more ballots to break our impasse.I'll take another one

<Does anyone want to ask Jalbright to vote here? Or Brian McKenna?>

It depends. First I have to ask them how they would vote

[RuthMayBond]

I'm not cheating yet.Keeler hasn't been railroaded in YET either

[Brad Harris]

Oh, no. He had voted for other, meaning Roger Connor, not realizing that Connor had already been elected.

You had actually voted for a perfectly acceptable candidate. In fact, I added Jim O'Rourke specifically for you. I'm not cheating yet.:laugh:laugh:laugh

[Bill Burgess]

3-Way Tie! What are we to do? Oh well. Guess we'll just keep going until there's a winner. Never expected this, though.

[RuthMayBond]

3-Way Tie! What are we to do? Browning comes first alphabetically

[AstrosFan]

Browning comes first alphabetically

This gentleman is very wise. Heed his words, Bill.

[Bill Burgess]

This gentleman is very wise. Heed his words, Bill.
Of course I will, Jud. Just as soon as others acknowledge that Cobb comes before Babe, alphabetically.

Sound fair? Fair is fair. The alphabet has its limits.

[RuthMayBond]

This gentleman is very wise.As is the esteemed AstrosFan (whom Burgess specifically cites as an expert). How can you NOT have the guy who got the whole bat revolution going?

[RuthMayBond]

Of course I will, Jud. Just as soon as others acknowledge that
Cobb comes before Babe, alphabetically.

Now lookee heah, Burgess

[Bill Burgess]

Now lookee heah, Burgess
As in Ruth, you snake in the grass.

[AstrosFan]

Aaron comes before Cobb, and before everyone except Aardsma, who is a pitcher. I think we've solved who the greatest hitter is.

[AstrosFan]

Also, we're using the alphabet as a tie-breaker. There isn't a tie-breaker needed between Ruth and Cobb as hitters. Ruth is ahead every time we do that poll. Indeed, Ted Williams, not Cobb, is his closest competitor.

[RuthMayBond]

Aaron comes before Cobb, and before everyone except Aardsma, who is a pitcher. I think we've solved who the greatest hitter is.Aardsma, or Tommie A?

[Bill Burgess]

The Tower of Babel has overtaken us. Will no one save us from ourselves?

Please, someone. We need votes to save us from ourselves.

Heeeelp! Heeeelp! Heeeelp! We need voters!

[AstrosFan]

Aardsma, or Tommie A?

Aaron = Aaron, but H comes before T. Therefore, Hank is before Tommie.

[Bill Burgess]

This is ridiculous. Have no idea how to proceed.

[Brad Harris]

Run-off of those tied for first?

[Bill Burgess]

Run-off of those tied for first?
That might be a good idea.

Tomorrow, we will have a run-off. Hope it works.

[RuthMayBond]

Run-off of those tied for first?Keeler and Hamilton just ran off

[Bill Burgess]

Well, we have had the special run-off election up for a couple of days and only 4 voters. So, where are our voters?

Special run-off election (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1463544#post1463544)