isn't it kind of a shame Juan Pierre's streak ended because of benching?

[sturg1dj]

first let me get this out of the way

1) I like Pierre, but I know he isn't really that valuable
2) I know his OPS+ is crazy low (along with his regular OPS)
3) I know he went to the Dodgers because of his own free will
4) I know he is anywhere near (not in the same ballpark) as valuable as Ripken defensively (this is obvious)


but isn't it kind of a shame that Pierre was not allowed to end the steak on his own terms

I know his OPS+ was crazy low, and comparisons with Cal Ripken will not really hold any water (since Pierre's career OPS+ is 83 while Cal's was 112) but still it seems like a shame that Pierre didn't get a chance. His best bet would have been to go to a team like the Reds or something where he would have had the chance to play ever day.


this made me look at Cal's career numbers, where once again I knew going in they were going to dwarf Pierre's...but one thing that bugged me is that there are seasons where he was a pretty bad hitter (1992 and 1993 especially) and he was never pulled (of course he had earned that right). Of course, unlike the Dodgers the Orioles had nothing better waiting behind Ripken.

[STLCards2]

first let me get this out of the way

1) I like Pierre, but I know he isn't really that valuable
2) I know his OPS+ is crazy low (along with his regular OPS)
3) I know he went to the Dodgers because of his own free will
4) I know he is anywhere near (not in the same ballpark) as valuable as Ripken defensively (this is obvious)


but isn't it kind of a shame that Pierre was not allowed to end the steak on his own terms

I know his OPS+ was crazy low, and comparisons with Cal Ripken will not really hold any water (since Pierre's career OPS+ is 83 while Cal's was 112) but still it seems like a shame that Pierre didn't get a chance. His best bet would have been to go to a team like the Reds or something where he would have had the chance to play ever day.


this made me look at Cal's career numbers, where once again I knew going in they were going to dwarf Pierre's...but one thing that bugged me is that there are seasons where he was a pretty bad hitter (1992 and 1993 especially) and he was never pulled (of course he had earned that right). Of course, unlike the Dodgers the Orioles had nothing better waiting behind Ripken.


In a way, the streak ending was his own terms - his own inability to be a productive ballplayer got his rear on the bench.

I would lose a lot of respect for any manager that kept sticking a player in the game because of a meaningless streak when there are significantly better players on the bench. If Pierre doesn't like it...playe better...take a walk...throw the ball further than 20 feet.

As far as I am concerned, Ripken's streak probably cost the Orioles some games over the course of his 20+ years. There is no real glory going for a streak knowing that you are too tired or hurt to help your team as much as a guy on the bench once in a blue moon. If Ripken always thought he really was the better option- every game, every time he was tired, hurt, etc., than his ego is pretty big.

I love Cal, but not for the streak,

[sturg1dj]

In a way, the streak ending was his own terms - his own inability to be a productive ballplayer got his rear on the bench.

I would lose a lot of respect for any manager that kept sticking a player in the game because of a meaningless streak when there are significantly better players on the bench. If Pierre doesn't like it...playe better...take a walk...throw the ball further than 20 feet.

As far as I am concerned, Ripken's streak probably cost the Orioles some games over the course of his 20+ years. There is no real glory going for a streak knowing that you are too tired or hurt to help your team as much as a guy on the bench once in a blue moon. If Ripken always thought he really was the better option- every game, every time he was tired, hurt, etc., than his ego is pretty big.

I love Cal, but not for the streak,

i would agree with this

while Eddie Murray was an Oriole he was never hurt, but he took days off...and he was a better hitter than Ripken (and much more consistent).

[philkid3]

He was benched because he's not that good. I don't think a streak continuing just for the sake of continuing it is interesting at all. He was benched because of his own failure.

[sturg1dj]

He was benched because he's not that good. I don't think a streak continuing just for the sake of continuing it is interesting at all. He was benched because of his own failure.


my problem is not really with the benching, its more with the record itself. The people who are crazy about Cal's streak like to say things like he went to work everyday like the rest of us. Or he was tough when so many other players will miss games for little or no reason.

here is Juan Pierre who was willing, but didn't get the chance.

I don't think its his own doing, its also the fault of the Cubs and Dodgers for overpaying him as much as they did. If Pierre was being paid what he is truly worth then he could have been traded somewhere where he could have played...but nobody will trade for his salary.


once again let me add, I know he is not that good; but there are teams he could have started for.


and I compared Ripken and Pierre, but I know that it is not fair to compare the two. There is no comparison really.

[yamsi12]

neither was gehrig

[KCGHOST]

Baseball is not about attendance; it is about performance and Pierre's wasn't deserving of more playing time.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In a way, the streak ending was his own terms - his own inability to be a productive ballplayer got his rear on the bench.

I would lose a lot of respect for any manager that kept sticking a player in the game because of a meaningless streak when there are significantly better players on the bench. If Pierre doesn't like it...playe better...take a walk...throw the ball further than 20 feet.

As far as I am concerned, Ripken's streak probably cost the Orioles some games over the course of his 20+ years. There is no real glory going for a streak knowing that you are too tired or hurt to help your team as much as a guy on the bench once in a blue moon. If Ripken always thought he really was the better option- every game, every time he was tired, hurt, etc., than his ego is pretty big.

I love Cal, but not for the streak,

Classic! :laugh

[gman5431]

Not a shame at all. The guy always lived on his speed and was a decent player but he lost the edge and didnt warrant a starting role anymore. The shame is that the Dodgers gave him that ridiculous contract.

G Man

[Captain Cold Nose]

neither was gehrig

What? Not that good?

[Avg_Hr_Rbi]

The people who are crazy about Cal's streak like to say things like he went to work everyday like the rest of us. Or he was tough when so many other players will miss games for little or no reason.

here is Juan Pierre who was willing, but didn't get the chance..


as a lifetime O's fan (I know LOL) and getting to watch Cal play over the yrs, I was a fan who always said that Cal should have been sat down from time 2 time, I know for sure he had some little injuries that hampered him while playing and more then likely hurt the club, and he was a double play magnet.

but the 1 thing I think you're all forgetting here is Cal could still play at a very high level even late in his career, where Pierre can't....his skills have dimished bigtime imho...

imo to compare these 2 guys is like comparing a Playboy Bunny to the nearest girly bar dancer...(just isn't the same)

[Gee Walker]

Before Gehrig broke his record, the longevity streak was held by Everett Scott, who held his job on competitive teams for nine years despite OPS+ numbers of 67, 54, and 53 in his last three years as a regular. The streak came to an end after 1307 consecutive games. Miller Huggins benched him, supposedly because of "bad knees" - but Scott never got his job back. Pee Wee Wanninger (?) took over as shortstop for the Yankees for the rest of the 1925 season. Scott was waived by the Yankees a month later, and resumed his career with the Senators.

Juan Pierre has been a much better hitter than Scott - Scott's best years for OPS+ are a couple of 79's, below Pierre's career average.

[yamsi12]

What? Not that good?


no one was IMO.

Greatest baseball player ever. Im currently reading "Luckiest Man" by Jonathan Eig. A great read. I highly recommend it. Its a shame he was taken from us at such a young age.

[Captain Cold Nose]

no one was IMO.

Greatest baseball player ever. Im currently reading "Luckiest Man" by Jonathan Eig. A great read. I highly recommend it. Its a shame he was taken from us at such a young age.

I'm still not exactly following you here. Neither was Gehrig what?

Luckiest Man is high on my list. I've always been a fan of Gehrig since first reading about him as a kid.

[sturg1dj]

I'm still not exactly following you here. Neither was Gehrig what?

Luckiest Man is high on my list. I've always been a fan of Gehrig since first reading about him as a kid.

he is saying neither of the men, Ripken or Pierre, were Gehrig

no insult there







imagine if Pierre was in the Nationals. He would play forever.

[Captain Cold Nose]

he is saying neither of the men, Ripken or Pierre, were Gehrig

no insult there







imagine if Pierre was in the Nationals. He would play forever.

Ah, got it. I mistakenly interpreted it as "so and so wasn't such and such, and neither was Gehrig" as opposed to "neither player was as good as Gehrig".

Very true, yamsi. Ripken himself would say as much in regards to himself. Doesn't diminish what he did, though. Peirre doesn't have a comparable resume, and he basically played himself into getting benched. It's a shame his playing got to that point.

[TheMadDog31]

I do really like Juan Pierre, always have. The guy plays with grit and determination, and he has for as long as I've seen him.

However, he's not the average hitter he was anymore, and he relies purely on his speed. He can't walk, he can't hit over .300 anymore, he can't throw, and he really doesn't deserve a spot in the lineup any more than any other player does. Still is a likeable guy though.

[sturg1dj]

I said this before above, but I will repeat it. I don't think Pierre is really getting worse the way you guys think...I just think he put himself into a contract that doomed him. If he were paid like a fast slap hitter he would have been traded this year and been a starter somewhere. He is a major league starter...he just couldn't start for every team. He is a starter for a bad team.

If he played in the 60's he would be an all-star (but of course this isn't the 60's...haha)

[TheMadDog31]

I said this before above, but I will repeat it. I don't think Pierre is really getting worse the way you guys think...I just think he put himself into a contract that doomed him. If he were paid like a fast slap hitter he would have been traded this year and been a starter somewhere. He is a major league starter...he just couldn't start for every team. He is a starter for a bad team.

If he played in the 60's he would be an all-star (but of course this isn't the 60's...haha)

I didn't mean that he's getting worse. It's just that he hasn't come close to performing the way he did with Colorado and Florida. He hasn't hit over .300 since 2004 and his OBP+ this year was 70, which is just ridiculously bad.

Pierre has virtually no power (six home runs over the past four seasons), and he just isn't hitting over .300 any more. Sure, the steals are still there and he plays great defense, but I just don't think he's more deserving of a starting job than any other player on the Dodgers.

He plays for a bad team? It's the complete opposite. If he were playing for a bad team, like he did when he was the everyday man for Colorado and the Marlins (after the '03 Series) he'd play everyday. However, he plays for the Dodgers, which have GREAT young talent, most of which play the outfield, not to mention the fact that the Dodgers put Manny in left and Jones in center. If Pierre were playing somewhere like, say, the Pirates or even the Reds, he'd probably have started every game this season.

[sturg1dj]

He plays for a bad team? It's the complete opposite. If he were playing for a bad team, like he did when he was the everyday man for Colorado and the Marlins (after the '03 Series) he'd play everyday. However, he plays for the Dodgers, which have GREAT young talent, most of which play the outfield, not to mention the fact that the Dodgers put Manny in left and Jones in center. If Pierre were playing somewhere like, say, the Pirates or even the Reds, he'd probably have started every game this season.

you misunderstood me. I was making the same point....what if he played for a bad team. Like I said he would play every day.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

So where are all those "Pierre will reach 3,000 hits" BBF folks, now? :happy:

[sturg1dj]

So where are all those "Pierre will reach 3,000 hits" BBF folks, now? :happy:


if he stayed an everyday player he would get close. Not because he is a great hitter, but because he gets so many at bats and always puts the ball in play.

the poor man's Ichiro

[spark240]

here is Juan Pierre who was willing, but didn't get the chance.

A lot of players are willing, to say the least, but don't get the chance to get a "streak" started in the first place...

[Captain Cold Nose]

A lot of players are willing, to say the least, but don't get the chance to get a "streak" started in the first place...

One could only look at some of hiddengem's posts here and understand what he's done throughout his pro career to know desire alone entitles you to nothing.

[sturg1dj]

i guess my point is so much was made of Ripken's streak. So much is made of players who refuse to play hurt and are not "tough." So much is made of players who artificially enhance their abilities. So much is made of players who do not hustle or play hard.


Here you have a player who played everyday, played hard, always hustled, and used his natural abilities even though he wasn't blessed with strength. Isn't it a shame a player like that was not allowed to continue, and isn't it a shame a player like that seems so disliked on this board?

[leecemark]

--As has been said. there are alot of players who work hard everyday to be the best they can be and stay healthy enough to play. Many of them never get a chance to have a real career at all. Should the Dodgers hurt their team by continuing to play Pierre everyday even though he is a below average player? Playing him regardless of ability until the day he isn't physically capable of dragging himself onto thefield would be unfair to his teamates. Pierre may have bee able to keep his streak going if he'd taken a smaller offer from a lousy team, but keeping him in the lineup would contribute toward the Dodgers being a lousier team.
--It was never in the cards for Pierre to stay in the linuep everyday long enough to challenge Ripken - or even Garvey for the NL record. He really should have had some days off long ago. He was never good enough that his team couldn't afford to give him some days off.

[sturg1dj]

--As has been said. there are alot of players who work hard everyday to be the best they can be and stay healthy enough to play. Many of them never get a chance to have a real career at all. Should the Dodgers hurt their team by continuing to play Pierre everyday even though he is a below average player? Playing him regardless of ability until the day he isn't physically capable of dragging himself onto thefield would be unfair to his teamates. Pierre may have bee able to keep his streak going if he'd taken a smaller offer from a lousy team, but keeping him in the lineup would contribute toward the Dodgers being a lousier team.
--It was never in the cards for Pierre to stay in the linuep everyday long enough to challenge Ripken - or even Garvey for the NL record. He really should have had some days off long ago. He was never good enough that his team couldn't afford to give him some days off.

I think your response shows that you think this is some sort of debate where I am saying Pierre should have started for the Dodgers this season. It is not. With there young outfielders and Manny he did not have a spot. And with his contract he could not be moved. That is what is a shame. Part of that his his fault, I understand.

[ipitch]

Am I the only one aware that Pierre was on the DL with an MCL injury? Benching or not, his streak would have ended anyway.

[Scoops]

imagine if Pierre was in the Nationals. He would play forever.
Except that Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Ryan Langerhans and even Willie Harris were all better hitters last year, and the same age (Harris) or younger than Pierre. Also: Austin Kearns and Wily Mo Pena had bad-to-horrific years but are better career hitters, and again, are younger. The tremendously bad Nationals played six outfielders who have a decent argument to play over Juan Pierre.

Having an everyday career as a poor hitting outfielder on any team is pretty tough, even if you can run enough (but not throw enough) to play center.

[sturg1dj]

Am I the only one aware that Pierre was on the DL with an MCL injury? Benching or not, his streak would have ended anyway.

haha, this thread is moot

[SamtheBravesFan]

Isn't it a shame a player like that was not allowed to continue, and isn't it a shame a player like that seems so disliked on this board?

No, it's not a shame. The fact that he is not producing much pretty much trumps all other things. It's great that Pierre wants to play every day. It's great that he hustles and plays good defense. It's great that he can make contact with the baseball pretty much anytime. The problem is that his talent is not translating into substantial production and that is the real shame.

[plask_stirlac]

Lyman Bostock's fate is a shame, not being benched for obvious reasons.

Who hates Juan Pierre? We just know he's very limited. He's a three stat player: singles, steals, and runs and those aren't that important. He's Reggie Willits with more time.

[TheMadDog31]

you misunderstood me. I was making the same point....what if he played for a bad team. Like I said he would play every day.

Indeed I did. I apologize. I thought you were saying that he IS playing for a bad team. Which, I mean, after their performance last night...especially Furcal...ouch.