Okay, a kinda hard HOF-question...

[craig3410]

Mark McGwire. Is he in the Hall? 583 career homers, with 70 coming in one of them. Should he get in, even though he no longer holds the record? I say yes. Also, if he does get in, which hat should he wear? Should he wear Oakland's because he played for them longer, or St. Louis because he is known best as a Cardinal?

[J W]

I don't think there'll be much of an argument here or in real life over McGwire. I'll say I don't think he was one of the five greatest 1B of all time, but I still think he's a Hall member. I think there's one guy who won't vote for him (or Harmon Killebrew, for that matter), but that's about it.

I say Cardinals for the hat. I think of him that way now. But, the A's wouldn't look bad on him.

[The Commissioner]

McGwire is going to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. As to what hat he should wear, either would be fine, but I have a feeling he is going to go in as a Cardinal.

[Etheridge2]

I agree with both posts he is 1st ballot but will get the least % between Gwynn and Ripken and himself in the year all 3 go in together.

I also think of him in red but owuld understand if he was enshrined with an A on his cap either way he will always be associated with St. Louis

[yankees2003]

Big Mac is a first ballot Hall of Famer. I'd guess he'll get elected on about 95% of the ballots.

McGwire still holds one home run record that might not ever be broken: Home Runs by a Rookie (49 in 1987).

When I think of McGwire, it almost seems like I have two different people in mind: the lanky young kid that wowed the world for Oakland; and the muscle bound slugger from St. Louis.

It should be noted that McGwire wore an Oakland A's uniform when he won his only championship, 1989. I'm not sure how much that should factor in the cap decision, but it should.

[Brad Harris]

I can't believe Mark McGwire's Hall of Fame credentials are being questioned!?! Wow!

Yeah, I have to agree with the concensus here: he'll go in on the first ballot and he'll have a very high percentage of votes.

McGwire is easily one of the 10 best first-basemen and/or 10 best power hitters in the history of the game.

As to what cap he wears, my personal opinion is "who cares?" but to answer your question I think it's a toss-up though the Hall will probably settle on the Cardinals (since they get to choose).

While I'm persuaded by the argument for the StL cap (he had his most significant accomplishments occur in the NL), consider the following as an argument for wearing the A's cap:

McGwire spent 75% of his seasons in Oakland.
He had 71% of his career plate appearances as an Athletic.
He hit 62% of his career home runs as an Athletic.
He broke the rookie home run record (in 1987) as an Athletic.
He was part of the famous "Brash Brothers" duo as an Athletic.
He played in three World Series as an Athletic.
He won a World Championship as an Athletic.
He was a 9-time All Star in Oakland.
He won the AL Rookie of the Year Award while in Oakland.
He won his only gold glove (1990) while in Oakland.
He finish in the top 10 in MVP voting 3 times while in Oakland.

He was only with the Cardinals four and a half seasons, by comparison. How could that measure up to the 11 and a half years in Oakland? Just breaking Maris' record negates all the other advantages Oakland has?

Not making a definative statement, just trying to build the argument for Oakland.

[Steffo]

I think he is going in 1st ballot with very high, very high voting percentage. Also, I think he will be in as an A, as I've thought.

[Atlanta Braves Freak]

I think he could be a first ballot HOF'er if Jose Canseco or Mark himself tells something about a supplement he took.

[CardFanNV]

I suppose my criteria for HOF is higher than others.


Mac will go in.

However .....................

He's a HR hitter. Nothing more. No foot speed, never had any. Won a Gold Glove (once), but that may have been more by default. He'd never win one now. Pretty weak lifetime BA. In his last 5 seasons, 75% of his plate appearences resulted in a BB, HR or K.

In my HOF, he would get special recognition for the '98 HR race.

But not a place with the immortals.

The HOF got it right in the Charter voting. 5 players were selected form the thousands that had played before. And they were all above reproach.

Now, too many players get in. Players who are one-dimentional. Like Mac. Players who did a lot of DH. It is NOT a position, to be a DH.

[razors]

Originally posted by CardFanNV:
"...It is NOT a position, to be a DH."


you're very vociferous with wrt your oppostion to the DH CardFanNV (and nothing wrong with that at all, in fact i prefer it to 'waffling' :)) but i've asked you before and am still interested to know:

what %, or number of games, would you need to see at a [defensive] position before you'd consider that player a HOF candidate, if at all?

do you have a max #/% of DH games and you're out?
a min #/% of position games to be in?

do any of the 'anti-DH-faction' out there have a criterion that they use when considering HOF candidacy and the DH?


cheers,



razors

[CardFanNV]

It's hard to put it into a certain set of criteria ..........................

It's more a question of, did being primarily a DH extend a player's career or enhance his numbers?

Eddie Murray - spent the last 4 years of his career as a DH. He's borderline. George Brett is similar.

Paul Molitor - "played" DH more than he started at any other position. Edgar Martinez is similar.

If a player STARTED (and thta's pretty much the ONLY way to be a DH) 10-15% of his games at that "position" he should be reconsidered. If more than that, sorry, no way.

Cal and Tony G. played in the field all their careers. Why can't everyone?

[brewcrew19]

I think they should put a bottle of Androstosterone in the HOF instead of Mc Gwire.

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by brewcrew19
I think they should put a bottle of Androstosterone in the HOF instead of Mc Gwire.


Big Mac is completely similar to Killebrew. HR hitter, nothing more. Had one skill down very well, but not above average at the rest.

[Brad Harris]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
...It's more a question of, did being primarily a DH extend a player's career or enhance his numbers? Eddie Murray - spent the last 4 years of his career as a DH. He's borderline. George Brett is similar. Paul Molitor - "played" DH more than he started at any other position. Edgar Martinez is similar....

Do you really think Brett, Murray, Molitor, McGwire and Martinez are marginal/borderline Hall of Famers?

[bly11]

Should Big Mac be in the Hall? YEEEEESSS!
Should he be first-ballot? YEEEEESSS!
What cap should he be wearing on his plaque? Who gives a rip? (Though I suspect it'll be Oaktown's.)

==============================================

Pointless prediction for the '07 ballot:
Ripken 94%
McGwire 90%
Gwynn 86%
Baines 26%
Caminiti & Canseco under 5%

[CardFanNV]

Originally posted by Chancellor
Do you really think Brett, Murray, Molitor, McGwire and Martinez are marginal/borderline Hall of Famers?

Not Brett and Murray so much as Mac and, especially, Molitor and Martinez .......................

Would Ted Williams have done a lot of DH duty if it had been available? What about Ruth? Musial? Ernie Banks was moved from SS to LF to 1B as he got older - would he have been DH? Yogi became an outfielder.

It's a moot point, and useless to argue. It's didn't exist then, so we'll never know.

I can't get behind any player that can only do ONE thing well, and is average at the rest. If you're gonna let in Big Mac, let in Kingman. Not a LOT of difference there. Mac drew more walks, maybe the "fear" factor came into play. It certainly helps Bonds in that regard.

Molitor and Martinez both have started more games at DH than any other "position".

[The Commissioner]

Originally posted by CardFanNV
If you're gonna let in Big Mac, let in Kingman. Not a LOT of difference there.

If Kingman had a career .263 BA instead of .236, he would be in. Then again, he probably would have also hit a lot more homeruns as well. The inverse can be said about McGwire.

[Cougar]

McGwire is a slam dunk first ballot HOF. No offense, but it's almost a silly question.

There's a credible case to be made that Big Mac was the best pure HR hitter ever! He's #6 all time in the shortest career (games, AB) among the 500 HR club (by far). And he was good at most other phases of the game too -- pretty good, underrated glove, hit for a good average in his best years (and always had a good OBP). OK, he couldn't run, but so what?

[Honus Wagner]

how 3 years changes everything

[flash143817]

Mac is still an easy HOFer in my book. His numbers are easily HOF-quality and say what you want about his andro use, but it was legal at the time when he used it. Also, his 49 HR as a rookie show that he had amazing power before he started using andro.

[brett]

405 HRs in a decade with 2 seasons of only 9 is stunning. Also a .394 on base percentage. Many forget that he actually had 30 (or more I forget) at the all star break in 2000, (as well as 37 after the break in '99 and 37 before and 33 after in '98 and 33 at the break in '87).

[soberdennis]

I have always thought there should be three first ballot HOFers next year.
Tony and Cal will go in. We all know that. And I expect a strong contingent of fans from Baltimore and San Diego to invade Cooperstown that week.
But I also agree with most of the people who have posted here. Big Mac should be there too. People want to make a big deal of his taking the fifth before Congress. But in this country, that is a right of any American. It should not imply guilt.
I do not know if McGwire, or for that matter, Bonds used Steroids. I will go by the principle of innocence until guilt is proven.
Until then Big Mac should take his place with the game's greats.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

The question was, "Is [McGwire] in the Hall," which I construe to mean, "Will McGwire get elected to the Hall?" My answer to this question is, "Yes, and by an overwhelming margin."

Ask me whether I think he belongs in the Hall, and you'll get an entirely different answer. Nearly everyone I know--and also a lot of this site's users--want Bonds banned from the Hall. Barry Bonds was not only 5x the natural player McGwire was, and 5x the cheating player McGwire was, he was also one of the greatest players of all-time BEFORE he started using that crap. Before McGwire started looking like a particularly muscular NFL lineman, and hitting baseballs like they were golf balls, he wasn't going anywhere near the Hall.

Yes, I know about his rookie year. I live in Northern California. In fact, I remember his first MLB HR, in 1986, off Detroit. I was casually watching the game and thought Dave Kingman had hit it, because the ball went well over the 440 sign in dead center in Tiger Stadium, and the batter was a very tall white guy. Only when he rounded the bases and I noticed he was too big in the shoulders did I realize it wasn't Kingman.

But THAT McGwire, as impressive as his initial HR was, was nothing like the behemoth that suddenly appeared in the mid and late 90's. And a guy who'd hit 22 HR's in 483 AB's in 1991, with a .201 BA, a .330 OBP and a horrible .383 slugging percentage, and who'd sat out almost all of 1993 and 1994, was suddenly hitting HR's at a wholly unprecedented pace: 52, 58, 70 and 65, in four consecutive years.

I don't buy it, and I've yet to talk to anyone in real life who does--and again, that's here in Northern California. I do know some who think it was strictly the Andro, but you can count me out of that group.

As I've said, I agree with the notion of ranking Barry Bonds as the #14 player of all-time, through the 1999 season. Take away Big Mac's andro, and I can't imagine he'd be near the top 140.

My vote will never count, but if it did, I'd vote NO, every chance I got.

BHN

[yankillaz]

Big Mac is completely similar to Killebrew. HR hitter, nothing more. Had one skill down very well, but not above average at the rest.

Yes, but while Killebrew played in a non-homerun Era, and he didn't used Enhanced Substances, McGwire did.

If the voters don't hold this against him, he MIGHT be a First Ballot HOF'er, because the competition is good, and he won't be ahead of Gwynn and Ripken Jr.

He probably will be a Second Ballot one. Or else, he might never go in for lying in congress.

[Fuzzy Bear]

McGwire is a HOFer and will go in on the first ballot.

His performance before Congress was embarassing, but the truth is that baseball wants to get the steroid issue over and done with. (Notice that there's no Bonds indictment yet, as was reported? Think MLB has nothing to do with that?)

And he'll go in with an A's cap. It'll be tough, because his years in St. Louis are where he had his greatest fame, but his years in Oakland are where he played in 3 World Series.

[cbenson5]

I have to say he doesn't deserve to be elected. He only had 1626 hits, a .263 career average, .394 on base percentage, and less than 1500 RBI. I view him as a one dimensional player. He's one of the all time great power hitter, but has little else to offer. IMO even without the steroid controversy, he is still borderline. My vote would be No.

[D-Rays Fan]

Mcgwire belongs in the Hall Of Fame. There's no proof he did illegal drugs. Andro wasn't illegal when he used it. It was sold in local GNC'S. Even if he did juice, he faced juiced pitchers. There's been more pitchers testing positive for drugs than hitters. MLB has cheated forever any way. Ruth corked his bat, and injected himself with extract from a sheep's testes. Mays and Stargell used amphetamines. Ford threw spitballs. Lots of guy's who are proven cheaters are in the HOF, where as BigMac who's never been proven to have cheated should be out, makes no sense to me.

[Williamsburg2599]

Mcgwire belongs in the Hall Of Fame. There's no proof he did illegal drugs. Andro wasn't illegal when he used it. It was sold in local GNC'S. Even if he did juice, he faced juiced pitchers. There's been more pitchers testing positive for drugs than hitters. MLB has cheated forever any way. Ruth corked his bat, and injected himself with extract from a sheep's testes. Mays and Stargell used amphetamines. Ford threw spitballs. Lots of guy's who are proven cheaters are in the HOF, where as BigMac who's never been proven to have cheated should be out, makes no sense to me.
You say that there is no proof that he took Steriods, yet you go and make a list of "cheaters", without listing any proof.

Arguments aside, welcome to Baseball Fever.:waving

[vasprtsfn]

I think he is hall worthy, but not on the first ballot. Too many questions about steriods.

[baseball junkie]

Mark McGwire was a one-dimensional player. All he could do is hit home runs -- which artificially inflated his batting average and on-base percentage because pitchers got scared of pitching to him.

Due to his steriod, andro and HGH use I just can't support his induction into Cooperstown. It is tragic. There was a time in '84, and later after he made it into MLB, '87, '88, '89 when he was probably my favorite player in the game.

Now I can't even look at the guy or think about him without his Congressional testimony coming back into my mind, negating all my positive feelings/thoughts about him as a player and a man.

[flash143817]

I have to say he doesn't deserve to be elected. He only had 1626 hits, a .263 career average, .394 on base percentage, and less than 1500 RBI. I view him as a one dimensional player. He's one of the all time great power hitter, but has little else to offer. IMO even without the steroid controversy, he is still borderline. My vote would be No.

Pretty rough HOF standards you have where a 163 OPS+ isn't good enough...


If you want to hold him out because of alleged steroid use, then that's one thing. But to say that his numbers aren't good enough even if he was clean the entire time is brutal. There are only 10 men in the history of MLB with a higher OPS+ than McGwire. Those are some high standards you have where only the 10 best hitters get to make the HOF.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Does Mac hold the rookie record for HR in a full season by a position player? Seems to me that record is 54. :p just playin' of course.

I think Mac will get in, but I wouldn't vote for him on the first shot. I would keep him out at first for two reasons...make somekind of statement, whatever that might be, and to let more things come out...to get a better idea of what we're dealing with for this entire era.

His batting averages make me puke, but you can't deny his HR hitting ability, even in this era.

He should go in as an Athletic imo.