BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1922

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1922 Guide
There are 33 candidates on the 1922 ballot – 21 holdovers and 12 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1917 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (12)
Chief Bender
Sam Crawford
Harry Davis
Cy Falkenberg
Tommy Leach – Age Rule
Hans Lobert
Red Murray
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Jim Scott
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

Holdovers (21)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support
Bill Bradley 3rd 16.13% 16.13% (1921)
Roger Bresnahan 3rd 58.06% 65.38% (1920)
Frank Chance 4th 58.06% 65.38% (1920)
Lave Cross 11th 25.81% 38.46% (1920)
Mike Donlin 4th 12.90% 25.93% (1919)
Bill Donovan 2nd 3.23% 3.23% (1921)
Clark Griffith 8th 48.39% 52.00% (1917)
Solly Hofman 2nd 3.23% 3.23% (1921)
Miller Huggins 2nd 16.23% 16.23% (1921)
Hughie Jennings 9th 61.29% 65.38% (1920)
Fielder Jones 10th 9.68% 19.23% (1920)
Addie Joss 8th 70.97% 74.07% (1919)
Johnny Kling 5th 9.68% 26.92% (1920)
Herman Long 14th 48.39% 56.52% (1913)
John McGraw 12th 35.48% 47.83% (1912)
Jimmy Ryan 15th 51.61% 65.38% (1920)
Cy Seymour 5th 6.45% 15.38% (1920)
Jimmy Sheckard 5th 32.26% 42.31% (1920)
Roy Thomas 7th 16.13% 25.00% (1917)
Joe Tinker 2nd 22.58% 22.58% (1921)
Hooks Wiltse 3rd 6.45% 7.69% (1920)

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (2)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support
Russ Ford Lack of Support 2 3.85% (1920)
George Stovall Lack of Support 2 7.69% (1920)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Jimmy Ryan 65.38% (1920)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Herman Long 56.52% (1913)

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (5)
Player 1920 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Addie Joss 70.97% 7
Hughie Jennings 65.38% 7
Roger Bresnahan 58.06% 2
Frank Chance 58.06% 3
Jimmy Ryan 51.61% 5

Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (2)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919) 2
Hardy Richardson* 69.57% (1912) 3 1915

* = Elected by Veterans Committee


HALL OF FAMERS

Players Elected (55)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons Living/Deceased
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27 Deceased (1852-1922)
Ross Barnes^ 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9 Deceased (1850-1915)
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20 Deceased (1867-1918)
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15 Living – Age 68
Mordecai Brown 1921 96.77% 1 Pitcher Chicago Cubs (NL) 1903-1916 14 Living – Age 46
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13 Deceased (1861-1905)
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18 Living – Age 64
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16 Living – Age 54
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10 Deceased (1864-1911)
Cupid Childs 1920 76.92% 15 Second Base Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1888, 1890-1901 13 Deceased (1867-1912)
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21 Living – Age 50
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12 Deceased (1861-1909)
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14 Living – Age 52
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Living – Age 65
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21 Living – Age 52
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20 Living – Age 52
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16 Deceased (1867-1903)
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17 Living – Age 56
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18 Deceased (1859-1906)
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 46
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15 Deceased (1856-1902)
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17 Living – Age 65
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 65
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14 Living – Age 56
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20 Living – Age 67
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 65
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19 Living – Age 50
Joe Kelley 1920 84.62% 8 Left Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1891-1906, 1908 17 Living – Age 51
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16 Deceased (1857-1894)
Napoleon Lajoie 1921 96.77% 1 Second Base Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1896-1916 21 Living – Age 48
Christy Mathewson 1922 93.55% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1900-1916 17 Living – Age 42
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10 Living – Age 51
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18 Living – Age 63
Cal McVey*^ 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Catcher/First Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879 9 Living – Age 73
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14 Living – Age 62
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15 Living – Age 53
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23 Deceased (1850-1919)
Dickey Pearce*^ 1920 (VC) 100% VC Shortstop Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1871-1877 7 Deceased (1836-1908)
Lip Pike*^ 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Center Field Baltimore Canaries (NA) 1871-1878, 1881, 1887 10 Deceased (1845-1893)
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11 Deceased (1854-1897)
Hardy Richardson* 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC Second Base/Left Field Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1892 14 Living – Age 67
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10 Living – Age 51
Al Spalding^ 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8 Deceased (1850-1915)
Joe Start*^ 1920 (VC) 91.67% VC First Base Providence Grays (NL) 1871-1886 16 Living - Age 80
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14 Living – Age 66
Ezra Sutton* 1920 (VC) 83.33% VC Third Base Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1871-1888 18 Deceased (1850-1907)
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15 Deceased (1860-1922)
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17 Living – Age 56
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13 Deceased (1876-1914)
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17 Living – Age 62
Mickey Welch* 1920 (VC) 75.00% VC Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1892 13 Living – Age 63
Deacon White^ 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20 Living – Age 75
George Wright^ 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12 Living – Age 75
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22 Living – Age 55
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13 Living – Age 46

* = Elected by Veterans Committee
^ = Played Significantly Prior to 1871

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (4): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Cal McVey, Deacon White
First Base (5): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner, Joe Start
Second Base (5): Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Napoleon Lajoie, Bid McPhee, Hardy Richardson
Third Base (2): Jimmy Collins, Ezra Sutton
Shortstop (6): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (6): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Joe Kelley, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (7): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, George Van Haltren
Right Field (4): King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (16): Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
1920 (2): Cupid Childs, Joe Kelley
- 1920 VC (7): Cal McVey, Dickey Pearce, Lip Pike, Hardy Richardson, Joe Start, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
1921 (3): Mordecai Brown, Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Regular Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 23
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 14
- Average Regular Election Percentage: 83.50%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: Cupid Childs, Al Spalding – 15
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years: 5
- Average Wait Before Election: 4.17 Years
- Number of Players Elected by Veterans Committee: 7
- Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss – 74.07% (1919)
- Most Regular Election Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Regular Election Electees in One Year: 0 (1912)
- Average Regular Election Electees Per Year: 2.29
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 31 (1921)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 24.67
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 11
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters), Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) - 5
- Electee with Longest Post-1871 Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Post-1871 Career: Dickey Pearce – 8 Seasons
- Average Post-1871 Career Length of Electees: 15.42 Seasons
- Number of Living Hall of Famers: 38
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Joe Start – Age 80
- Deceased in Past Year: Cap Anson (Age 69), Sam Thompson (Age 62)

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27
1920: 26
1921: 31

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)
1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83665), 1920 Players VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697), 1920 Contributors VC (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83852)
1921 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83924)

[jalbright]

Crawford
Leach
Long
Plank
Wagner
Walsh

[KCGHOST]

Crawford
Griffith
Joss
McGraw
Plank
Ryan
Wagner
Walsh

[Freakshow]

Mathewson, Lajoie and M. Brown were elected. Joss and Thomas are dropped for now. Taking their places are newbies Wagner, Crawford, Plank, Walsh and Leach.

Bresnahan
Chance
Crawford
L. Cross
Griffith
Jennings
Leach
Long
McGraw
Plank
Ryan
Sheckard
Tinker
Wagner
Walsh

[J W]

New names in bold; rookies in italics

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Herman Long
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

dropped - none

[DoubleX]

I went with:

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

It's likely that Jimmy Ryan will have to take his chances with the VC. Still don't understand why he's out and Van Haltren and Duffy are in.

In light of Commissioner Landis' decision to ban the 8 White Sox players that were allegedly part of the 1919 World Series fix (I say allegedly because they were acquitted in a court of law), we will not be considering those players, or any other player banned on account of gambling and game fixing (most notably Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman).

[jjpm74]

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Lave Cross
Addie Joss
Johnny Kling
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Jimmy Ryan
Roy Thomas
Ed Walsh
Hooks Wiltse

Dropped for now: Hughie Jennings, Jimmy Sheckard

Consideration set: Mike Donlin, Clark Griffith, Joe Tinker

No, omitting Wagner was not an oversight. With others dropping players left and right and looking ahead at the next few years of voting, I care more about keeping fringe candidates on the ballot for discussion down the line than how much of the overall percentage Wagner gets elected by. Hopefully a few others will do the same with their ballots. If not, the next 8 or so elections look pretty bleak given who's coming up for eligibility.

[BlueBlood]

My ballot balloons from 3 at the end of the last election to 8 thanks to the newcomers.

1. Bender
2. Bresnahan
3. Crawford
4. Jennings
5. Joss
6. Plank
7. Wagner
8. Walsh

Ranked By # of Ballot Appearances:

Nine (1914 onward) - Hughie Jennings
Eight (1915 onward) - Addie Joss
Three (1920 onward) - Roger Bresnahan
One (1922) - Chief Bender/Sam Crawford/Eddie Plank/Honus Wagner/Ed Walsh

[henrich]

alphabetical order

1. Chief Bender
2. Sam Crawford
3. Lave Cross
4. Herman Long
5. Eddie Plank
6. Ed Reulbach
7. Jimmy Ryan
8. Honus Wagner
9. Ed Walsh

[Erik Bedard]

First election since I believe the start of school for me.

Crawford
Joss
Ryan
Sheckard
Wagner

I probably wanted to vote for Plank as well, but I missed out on a bunch of discussion and didn't realize he was eligible this year. If I'm the only one to leave him off, or he's one vote short, then a vote for him could be added from me. Otherwise, I don't think it'll matter.

EDIT: And Walsh too.

[DoubleX]

Is Honus Wagner, who is quite possibly the greatest player the game has ever seen to this point in time, really down just around 80%? Has strategic voting really come to this? I believe we should emphatically endorse and honor the games true greats, and have that overwhelming support be what separates them from others who get in. Surely, other candidates would have made more fitting sacrifices for a strategic vote than the great Wagner?

[PVNICK]

Bender
Chance
Crawford
Cross
Kling
Long
Plank
Ryan
Sheckard
Wagner
Walsh

Once the run of giants that have come up the last few years, Lajoie, Mathewson, Wagner and Crawford come to mind, it will be interesting to see if Bradley, Leach, Harry Davis and Miller Huggins of the newer balotees get any traction.

Bradley was the premiere 3B in the AL and perhaps all of baseball for the first half of the 00s, though an aging Jimmy Collins pushed him close and Lave Cross was up there. Leach was putting in star seasons at the turn of the century as a 3B with the Pirates and still doing so as the Great War approached as a CF with the Cubs. Harry Davis managed to lead the AL in something or another on a nearly annual basis through much of the 00s. Huggins was an exceptional 2b (at least in comapring Pct. and RF/9 to league) who consitently was on base, scored runs but was on sub par teams.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bender
Bresnahan
Chance
Crawford
Griffith
Jennings
Joss
Kling
Long
Plank
Ryan
Sheckard
Wagner
Walsh

Oops, missed Lave Cross. No big deal, we'll be electing a few again this time around.

[dgarza]

Cheif Bender
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Mike Donlin
Hugh Jennings
Addie Joss
John McGraw
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Joe Tinker
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

1. Honus Wagner
2. Sam Crawford
3. Eddie Plank
4. Ed Walsh
5. Addie Joss
6. Jimmy Ryan
7. Chief Bender
8. Mike Donlin
9. John McGraw
10. Hugh Jennings
11. Roger Bresnahan
12. Joe Tinker
13. Frank Chance

[philkid3]

I'm happy now seeing names like Richardson, Sutton and Welch on the list.

[philkid3]

My largest ballot in a while.

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Hughie Jennings
Miller Huggins
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Joe Tinker
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

Chief Bender is high on my maybes list, but I need to hear the arguments for him, first.

[jjpm74]

Those voting for Huggins, he was insignificant as a player and in 1922, his managerial career was just starting to take off. He's a guy better left to the VC if he can keep his New York team winning pennants.

[philkid3]

I'm not going to refuse to vote for him just because I think he might become a great manager, though.

[jjpm74]

I'm not going to refuse to vote for him just because I think he might become a great manager, though.

Are you voting for him because you thought he was a good player or because he will one day in the future be inducted to the HOF for managing the Yankees of the 1920s?

[Cowtipper]

Bender
Crawford
Cross
Donlin (something about that .333 AVG and 144 OPS+)
Griffith
Joss
Plank
Ryan
Wagner
Walsh

I may vote for Reulbach in the next election, even though I said he doesn't belong in a thread I did on him.

[jjpm74]

Donlin (something about that .333 AVG and 144 OPS+)


It's scary to think just how good Donlin could have been if he had taken baseball seriously and made a career of it.

[philkid3]

Are you voting for him because you thought he was a good player or because he will one day in the future be inducted to the HOF for managing the Yankees of the 1920s?

Because I think he was a tremendous fielding second baseman with a marvelous ability, for his position, to get on base and made up for some of his power with an ability to steal. I won't be too angry if he's left out, but I feel his career as a player, particularly his peak, was Hall of Fame worthy.

He's at the bottom of my queue, though.

[Paul Wendt]

Huggins an insignificant player?
like Johnny Evers without a team?

Evers played one game this season, so he isn't eligible here, maybe.

Chief Meyers played 9 seasons, 3226 pa, better than most catchers.

[Brooklyn]

Sam Crawford
Addie Joss
Eddie Plank
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

[TheSlaff]

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
John McGraw
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

[BlueBlood]

Joss's curve is the oddest I've seen on here. He gets downplayed by the early voters, then boosts his candidacy to near election levels with the middle voters, then ends up shut out by the last few voters. Everyone else in this project either moves over/under the line and stays there by the end, but Joss always starts out under, goes over, then crawls back under. Nothing worth over-analyzing, just something I noticed about when our electorate tends to vote.

[DoubleX]

I'm starting to wonder if Roger Bresnahan will ever be elected. My guess is that he had a good chance with a lot of lean years coming up, but I'd think he'd be getting better support than he is. He's easily the best catcher since Buck Ewing, and as of now (1922), no one else has really come close. He also ushered in a number of advances in catching equipment that have become regular parts of the game and better allow catchers to withstand the rigors of catching, thereby playing more regularly and enjoying longer and more productive careers.

[jjpm74]

What's a bit of a mystery here is why Ryan is at 75% in his 15th year and struggling to stay above water on the ballot when Browning, Van Haltren, and Duffy were all elected long ago.

[jjpm74]

Because I think he was a tremendous fielding second baseman with a marvelous ability, for his position, to get on base and made up for some of his power with an ability to steal. I won't be too angry if he's left out, but I feel his career as a player, particularly his peak, was Hall of Fame worthy.

Good point. I may have to reconsider him next election if there's space for him on my ballot.

[Paul Wendt]

Everyone else in this project either moves over/under the line and stays there by the end, but Joss always starts out under, goes over, then crawls back under. Nothing worth over-analyzing, just something I noticed about when our electorate tends to vote.
Of course if the "start" is the first ballot cast then a single voter makes the difference at the start. But here we are dealing with such small numbers that you may notice the effect of a single voter even if you define the start as the first 20% of the ballots cast. With 5 out of 6 votes a candidate "starts out over" (noticeably) and with 4 out of 6 "starts out under" (noticeably).

[philkid3]

I'm very sorry, but i can't take strategic voting seriously enough to be comfortable with the best player in major league history (bring up Cobb all you want, but I don't think he catches him) having only 90% of the vote.

[DoubleX]

Here's who I have for next year. Did I miss anyone?

Jimmy Archer - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Bescher
Tommy Clark - Likely won't be on ballot
Doc Crandall
Bill Donovan
Mickey Doolan
George Gibson
Wilbur Good - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Groom - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Harmon - Likely won't be on ballot
Dick Hoblitzel
John Hummel
Davy Jones
George McQuillan
Rube Oldring
Frank Schulte
Jeff Tesreau
Heinie Wagner
Bobby Wallace

Other than Wallace, very slim pickings. I'll probably chop a few more of these guys off the ballot as well.

[KCGHOST]

Failing to vote for Wagner is grounds to question your ability to vote rationally. You have forfeited your right to ever criticize any other voting body's result.

[jjpm74]

Here's who I have for next year. Did I miss anyone?

Jimmy Archer - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Bescher
Tommy Clark - Likely won't be on ballot
Doc Crandall
Bill Donovan
Mickey Doolan
George Gibson
Wilbur Good - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Groom - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Harmon - Likely won't be on ballot
Dick Hoblitzel
John Hummel
Davy Jones
George McQuillan
Rube Oldring
Frank Schulte
Jeff Tesreau
Heinie Wagner
Bobby Wallace

Other than Wallace, very slim pickings. I'll probably chop a few more of these guys off the ballot as well.

Bill Donovan is already on the ballot.

[jjpm74]

Failing to vote for Wagner is grounds to question your ability to vote rationally. You have forfeited your right to ever criticize any other voting body's result.

I do find it very humorous that you are so bothered by the fact that I didn't vote for Wagner because

1. He was guaranteed election without my vote
2. Not voting for him made room on my ballot for Jimmy Ryan who's in his last year of eligibility.

Seriously, what difference does it make if someone gets in with 100% of the vote or 75% of the vote? In's in. :rolleyes:

Edit: For those of you who are bothered by % margin and think it has anything to do with how good a player was, here's a list of the top vote getters in the NBHOFM elections from 1936 to date in order. Is this your personal top 20 all time excluding ineligible players and active players?

1. Nolan Ryan 98.8%
1. Tom Seaver 98.8%
3. Cal Ripken 98.5%
4. Hank Aaron 97.8%
5. Tony Gwynn 97.6%
6. Mike Schmidt 96.5%
7. Johnny Bench 96.4%
8. Steve Carlton 95.6%
9. Honus Wagner 95.5%
10. Babe Ruth 95.1%
11. Willie Mays 94.7%
12. Carl Yastrzemski 94.6%
13. Bob Feller 93.8%
14. Reggie Jackson 93.6%
15. Ted Williams 93.4%
16. Stan Musial 93.2%
17. Jim Palmer 92.6%
18. Brooks Robinson 92%
19. Wade Boggs 91.9%
20. Ozzie Smith 91.7%

Since we're taking % seriously, I guess Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan are the greatest players of all time and Babe Ruth is the 10th best player of all time.

[Paul Wendt]

I'm very sorry, but i can't take strategic voting seriously enough to be comfortable with the best player in major league history (bring up Cobb all you want, but I don't think he catches him) having only 90% of the vote.
?? It seems you are taking it quite seriously.

I concede, I hinted mid-1921 that I would omit Morde Brown if necessary in order to drop him into a tie with Mathewson. I didn't reconsider and judge that that would be taking anything too seriously, maybe it would. But when I voted late in the year I had forgotten about the whole tempest in a teapot, the whole brew-haha.

[Paul Wendt]

Here's who I have for next year. Did I miss anyone?

Jimmy Archer - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Bescher
Tommy Clark - Likely won't be on ballot
Doc Crandall
Bill Donovan
Mickey Doolan
George Gibson
Wilbur Good - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Groom - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Harmon - Likely won't be on ballot
Dick Hoblitzel
John Hummel
Davy Jones
George McQuillan
Rube Oldring
Frank Schulte
Jeff Tesreau
Heinie Wagner
Bobby Wallace

Other than Wallace, very slim pickings. I'll probably chop a few more of these guys off the ballot as well.
I would cut Wagner.
I thought that Honus and Heine were brothers, not that those were their given names. But no, see Honus Wagner's brother (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wagnebu01.shtml) at baseball-reference.

A few years ago the standard for catchers was quite liberal. --not because we might elect them, I guess, but because they deserve to have their names in lights once?
My thought here was that I would list Jimmy Archer, a famous catcher, and John Henry, who tied for greatest Washington Senators catcher of the deadball era (SABR Deadball Era Cmte). But a quick check shows that they both fell short of 3000 PA. They are one noticeable step and two noticeable steps down from Chief Meyers, in my opinion.

McQuillan? Everyone should look up his record.

[jjpm74]

I would cut Wagner.
I thought that Honus and Heine were brothers, not that those were their given names. But no, see Honus Wagner's brother (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wagnebu01.shtml) at baseball-reference.

A few years ago the standard for catchers was quite liberal. --not because we might elect them, I guess, but because they deserve to have their names in lights once?
My thought here was that I would list Jimmy Archer, a famous catcher, and John Henry, who tied for greatest Washington Senators catcher of the deadball era (SABR Deadball Era Cmte). But a quick check shows that they both fell short of 3000 PA. They are one noticeable step and two noticeable steps down from Chief Meyers, in my opinion.

McQuillan? Everyone should look up his record.

While he doesn't have my vote, Archer was noteworthy enough that he should show up on the ballot once, IMO.

[MadHatter]

Chief Bender
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Mike Donlin
Bill Donovan
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Addie Joss
John McGraw
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

[jjpm74]

One day left and Jimmy Ryan is under the line. Who's going to help push him above the 75% threshold? Is he destined to end up going to the VC?

[KCGHOST]

I do find it very humorous that you are so bothered by the fact that I didn't vote for Wagner

Yuk it up. What your vote said is that you identified 15 players more deserving of being in the HoF. Now you can attach any method of reasoning you want to it, but that's the bottom line.

[jjpm74]

Yuk it up. What your vote said is that you identified 15 players more deserving of being in the HoF. Now you can attach any method of reasoning you want to it, but that's the bottom line.

That is not what it said at all unless you're one of those special few who really does think Nolan Ryan was the best player in the history of the game because of the fact that he was named on more ballots than anyone else in the history of the game, that is in which case, carry on.

[philkid3]

Edit: For those of you who are bothered by % margin and think it has anything to do with how good a player was, here's a list of the top vote getters in the NBHOFM elections from 1936 to date in order. Is this your personal top 20 all time excluding ineligible players and active players?

1. Nolan Ryan 98.8%
1. Tom Seaver 98.8%
3. Cal Ripken 98.5%
4. Hank Aaron 97.8%
5. Tony Gwynn 97.6%
6. Mike Schmidt 96.5%
7. Johnny Bench 96.4%
8. Steve Carlton 95.6%
9. Honus Wagner 95.5%
10. Babe Ruth 95.1%
11. Willie Mays 94.7%
12. Carl Yastrzemski 94.6%
13. Bob Feller 93.8%
14. Reggie Jackson 93.6%
15. Ted Williams 93.4%
16. Stan Musial 93.2%
17. Jim Palmer 92.6%
18. Brooks Robinson 92%
19. Wade Boggs 91.9%
20. Ozzie Smith 91.7%

Since we're taking % seriously, I guess Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan are the greatest players of all time and Babe Ruth is the 10th best player of all time.

The fact that there are people who don't vote for obvious Hall of Famers is one of the things that bothers me most about the real Hall of Fame.

[philkid3]

That is not what it said at all unless you're one of those special few who really does think Nolan Ryan was the best player in the history of the game because of the fact that he was named on more ballots than anyone else in the history of the game, that is in which case, carry on.

I don't think Nolan Ryan is the best player in the history of the game. I think he should have been one of several dozen players to get 100% of the vote.

[DoubleX]

Here's a revised list of who will join the ballot next year:

Jimmy Archer
Bob Bescher
Tommy Clark - Likely won't be on ballot
Doc Crandall
Mickey Doolan
George Gibson
Wilbur Good - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Groom - Likely won't be on ballot
Bob Harmon - Likely won't be on ballot
Dick Hoblitzel
John Hummel
Davy Jones
George McQuillan - Likely won't be on ballot
Rube Oldring
Frank Schulte
Jeff Tesreau
Heinie Wagner - Likely won't be on ballot
Bobby Wallace

[Paul Wendt]

Wallace?
BBF said my message was too short.

[J W]

The fact that there are people who don't vote for obvious Hall of Famers is one of the things that bothers me most about the real Hall of Fame.

This echoes my sentiments on the situation... but strategic voting is allowed in this project so, that's that. In our previous attempt, I actually did private ballots just like the BBWAA... but the Wagners of the world still got their 100%. Cap Anson for one did not.

I'll respectfully withdraw from future voting. Thanks guys!

[jjpm74]

Jimmy Ryan lingers with a slim chance at election in the 11th hour. It'd take two more ballots cast with his name mentioned on both to get him to the 75% threshold. If he doesn't make it, he'll probably stand as our closest to be elected without being elected as it's unlikely he'll fare better if he is left to the VC.

[AG2004]

My ballot

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Sam Crawford
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Tommy Leach
Herman Long
Eddie Plank
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh

[DoubleX]

This echoes my sentiments on the situation... but strategic voting is allowed in this project so, that's that. In our previous attempt, I actually did private ballots just like the BBWAA... but the Wagners of the world still got their 100%. Cap Anson for one did not.

I'll respectfully withdraw from future voting. Thanks guys!

Why are you withdrawing? Because there is strategic voting? Even in a private voting, how could you stop someone from strategic voting? JJPM, for example, didn't vote for Wagner, but it had nothing to do with this being a secret or pubic ballot, as he is always one of the first to vote and is thus not swayed by what the poll may say. If this were a secret ballot, I suspect he'd do exactly the same thing. Strategic voting is not encouraged here, but the fact of the matter is a voter can vote for whomever they want within the 15-vote limit. If someone wants to leave a surefire guy out in favor of bringing attention to a more questionable player, so be it.

I think it would be regrettable if you left this project because of this unfortunate side effect of the project's nature.

[jjpm74]

How is strategic voting (which I want to point out the fact that I'm not the only one who didn't vote for Wagner here, and that by the looks of it at least 3-4 other people utilized strategic voting this round alone, BTW), any worse than the guys who purposly wait until there is almost no time left before casting a vote or those who purposly do so so that they can vote against the front runners? What about the small hall guys who insist on sticking to their small hall ballots even as this project's purpose was supposed to be to exercise some flexibility as the Hall became more evolved? What about the guys who refuse to listen to any period arguments even though this is supposed to be a period specific project?

Publicly announcing that you're leaving because you object to strategic voting is silly. And yes, I would have voted the same way had the ballots been private and yes, I tend to vote towards the beginning of the election. The next 10 elections feature a bunch of nobodys. I'd much rather see a ballot next year that has some names worth discussion than see 3-4 discussion worthy names drop off the ballot just so Honus Wagner, Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank and Ed Walsh have 100% of the vote. I guess the sky must be falling and the world must be ending because they don't given the reaction of a few people over this. :rolleyes:

[leecemark]

--I think its possible to be "strategic" without insulting the integritiy of the process by leaving the best player ever to appear before us off your ballot. I'm not outraged by it or anything, but there are plenty of guys not in danger of falling off the ballot and with no chance of being elected this year that could have been strategic drops - without making it so obvious that you are not voting for the best available candidates.
--Also, if a player has to have you vote this year to avoid being dropped from the ballot then he has zero chance of election anyway. Excepting the very beginning when we had a huge field to work through what is the lowest percent of votes an eventual Hall of Famer received?

[jjpm74]

--I think its possible to be "strategic" without insulting the integritiy of the process by leaving the best player ever to appear before us off your ballot. I'm not outraged by it or anything, but there are plenty of guys not in danger of falling off the ballot and with no chance of being elected this year that could have been strategic drops - without making it so obvious that you are not voting for the best available candidates.
--Also, if a player has to have you vote this year to avoid being dropped from the ballot then he has zero chance of election anyway. Excepting the very beginning when we had a huge field to work through what is the lowest percent of votes an eventual Hall of Famer received?

How's that insulting the integrity of the process? What difference could it possibly make if a player gets 100% of the votes or 92% of the votes? I voted in the beginning and left off Wagner because I had 16 people and he was the player least likely to need my support. Big deal.

Both Charley Jones and Mike Tiernan went from being on the brink of leaving the ballot early to coming within 2 votes of election.

[DoubleX]

I agree with Mark's point of view, in that to some of us, a higher election percentage is an honor of the player's greatness. Wagner is likely the best player we've had thus far, and if he can't get 100%, then election percentage doesn't really mean anything. That being said, I'm not going to tell people how to vote.

[jjpm74]

The only % that matters to me is 75%. To each his own.

[Paul Wendt]

For what it's worth I voted rather late, added Jimmy Ryan to my ballot, and also added all of the extra-strong newcomers to my ballot. So I must cut several candidates whom I supported last year. I didn't cut the weakest ones but looked at the standings and cut the first three in alphabetical order (Bradley, Bresnahan, Chance) only after ascertaining that they were all sure of 5%, having two votes in hand (Bradley being the doubtful one), and that none was above 60% either (Bresnahan and Chance both doubtful to me).

When I arrived at baseball-fever, still less than a year ago, the degree of public voting and open discussion of voting tactics surprised me, but that seems to be the way it is. I am willing to agree to cast both rank-order ballots and "vote for N" ballots without attention to renomination requirements, electability, last chances (Jimmy Ryan 1922), and so on. But only by mutual agreement of a large majority to participate that way.