My Yeager experience - sort of

[Bucketdad]

Due to recent BBF discussion subjects (namely hitting instruction) . I was, and still am, interested in what the learned have to say about hitting the ball.
I have purchased yet another dvd series, Yeager this time. I purchased all of them for $95. I am struck with how accurate his observations truly are. I realized that my daughter was lacking in three important components of a high level swing:
1. Linear push forward from the back leg
2. Early front arm extension I think he says 135 degrees or more
3. Front leg push after bent knee (front) blocking

She and I have concentrated our efforts on early front arm extension and correcting the front leg action as described by Yeager. The initial results are amazing. We are into our dome season up here and she has gone 9 for 10 with a couple of walks. She has 4 doubles (2 of them were ground rule one hop over the fence doubles) 4 singles and her first over the fence home run (200 foot fence). Her dome season coaches, who haven’t seen her since this past spring, said she looks like a new player.

I’m not saying Yeager is the end all of hitting instruction, but is, IMO, a very important component and should be incorporated into a hitter’s training program. There are areas in which he doesn’t cover or glosses over, but all of those areas were addressed in other instruction dvd/programs I own.
I own: Lau jr. – Candrea/Enquist (Slaught) – Englishbey – Stockton – Cohen (drills) – Jarmillo sp? – and now Yeager. I have books from: Ted Williams, Lau jr, and Luis Ortiz (the best hitting drill book you’ve never heard of). And I also rely on BBF which is a true double edged sword.

My point is that any dad/mom/coach/player who relies on one source for teaching/learning hitting mechanics is going to miss the boat. The reason: all the aforementioned have elements which are spot on and should be practiced. They also have areas that are IMO incorrect and should be avoided. The trick is to recognize this and that aint easy. They are, as someone here once stated, "a tool in the box".

I have a request. Yeager’s dvds lack practice drills (he has only 2 on the dvds). I am at this point asking if any Yeager followers have developed or come across drills to address his lower body mechanics as well as early lead arm extension. I have figured out a couple
but I am looking for more. Mine involve a heavy bag and my 14 yr old DD shouldn’t do this too much, it will injure her if I over use the heavy bag drills.

Thanks,

BD

[FiveFrameSwing]

IMO Chris Yeager's description of the MLB swing is the most accurate that you will find publicly available.

The importance of "obtaining lead-arm extension”, and "maintaining lead-arm extension" into contact, is often overlooked. I had a student yesterday for their second instruction, and they learned first-hand how lead-arm extension results in driving the ball further.

I had another student on their third hitting instruction that worked more on their shift yesterday. I had them perform the shift/take drill before swinging away. This kid learned first-hand how valuable a proper shift is to powering their swing.

[halfguard]

i believe yeager has a couple drill dvds. you have to email him about them. if you have bought the the main set you can buy them. if not i think he will switch out a couple from the main set with the drill dvds. (if you buy the whole set). i will buy them soon...i just bought a couple dvds and was kinda disapointed, so im keeping my money in my pocket for now.............

[Bucketdad]

FFS,As you have gathered, I now fully agree.
For my DD this was a huge difference maker in her swing and IMO is irrefutabale. I was incorrectly informed while back that this was arm barring and should be avoided. She never had early lead arm extension and consequentally never had much power. The came Yeager's dvd, and there it was, early leadr arm extension. I have attatched an image of what Yeager considers lead arm extension. Vlad has the least amount. Soriano's is almost fully extended.

HalfGaurd,
Which dvds are you disapointed with?

Thanks,

BD

[halfguard]

id rather not say. just because i didnt like them doesnt mean that they are not good. they just dont teach what i consider to be the proper mechanics, or atleast what i think the proper mechanics are. i have a few dvds and so far i think mike epstein has the best info......however, i havent seen the yeager dvds....

[FiveFrameSwing]

BD,

IMO what your photo shows are MLB players "maintaining leadarm extension" into contact. Prior to this they "obtain lead arm extension" during their forward stride.

One "obtains" lead arm extension as they stride forward (gather/launch). Assuming that one is not fooled by the pitch, they then "maintain" lead arm extension, or even gain extension, as they approach contact.

In Donny's opinion the timing of obtaining lead arm extension was important in terms of avoiding arm barring. Donny advocated obtaining lead arm extension "during" the forward stride and not "prior" to the forward stride.

--FFS

[FiveFrameSwing]

id rather not say. just because i didnt like them doesnt mean that they are not good. they just dont teach what i consider to be the proper mechanics, or atleast what i think the proper mechanics are. i have a few dvds and so far i think mike epstein has the best info......however, i havent seen the yeager dvds....


IMO it would help if you viewed the DVDs before commenting on them.

As for Epstein, you certainly won't find the lead arm action displayed on the cover of his book being taught by Yeager.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/MikeEpstein_Book.jpg

IMO Epstein was one of those that completely glossed over the concept of lead arm extension.

[Bucketdad]

BD,

IMO what your photo shows are MLB players "maintaining leadarm extension" into contact. Prior to this they "obtain lead arm extension" during their forward stride.

One "obtains" lead arm extension as they stride forward (gather/launch). Assuming that one is not fooled by the pitch, they then "maintain" lead arm extension, or even gain extension, as they approach contact.

In Donny's opinion the timing of obtaining lead arm extension was important in terms of avoiding arm barring. Donny advocated obtaining lead arm extension "during" the forward stride and not "prior" to the forward stride.

--FFS
You're correct and that's what Yeager instructs.
I couldn't find any images showing early lead arm extension as the stride occurs. This clip demonstrates what I'm refering to in terms of my understanding Yeager's early lead arm extension. He has a term he uses for this action, and I just can't remember it.

BD

[halfguard]

IMO it would help if you viewed the DVDs before commenting on them.

As for Epstein, you certainly won't find the lead arm action displayed on the cover of his book being taught by Yeager.

http://groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/MikeEpstein_Book.jpg

IMO Epstein was one of those that completely glossed over the concept of lead arm extension.

what are you talking about, i never commented on any dvd i havent seen:ughh

[Skipper_George]

How do you tell the difference between "arm barring" and early lead arm extension?

[FiveFrameSwing]

what are you talking about, i never commented on any dvd i havent seen:ughh

I apologize. I misinterpreted what you wrote.

In retrospect you the DVDs that you weren't happy with are not Chris Yeager's DVDs, but from another source.

The confusion was on my part.

[Chris O'Leary]

How do you tell the difference between "arm barring" and early lead arm extension?

Excellent question.

I think the answer is that the idea that an "arm bar" is bad is a myth, or at least not as bad as some people think.

But I'm not sure.

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm not convinced that maintaining front arm extension is always a good idea because it could reduce adjustability.

While Pujols' front arm does often extend fully (or at least a lot), it's not on this home run swing (which I would argue is why he was able to hit the pitch out).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_001.jpg

I could see too much extension creating a hole in your swing over the inner 1/3 of the plate. That may be why Griffey Jr.'s power number are great but his BA at .288 isn't in the same league as Pujols' at .334.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/KenGriffeyJr_2008_Sequence_004.jpg

There's also the question of Jeter's front arm, which I believe is still quite bent at the POC.

[mudvnine]

Chris, do you have any thoughts on lead arm extension and bat drag?

I say this, because in the four pictures posted, Vlad has the least amount of lead arm extension and looking at his swing, he is right on the borderline of bat drag.

It's my thought that with early lead arm extension the top hand is forced into the more upright position as Yeager refers to, trying to get more of a top-hand throwing motion, to keep the rear elbow slotted longer.

Is this something that is coincidental with these four pictures, or do you agree that the lead arm extension can assist in preventing bat drag if taught correctly?

[halfguard]

shouldnt the front arm maintain the box or triangle when contact is made?

[FiveFrameSwing]

I'm not convinced that maintaining front arm extension is always a good idea because it could reduce adjustability.

While Pujols' front arm does often extend fully (or at least a lot), it's not on this home run swing (which I would argue is why he was able to hit the pitch out).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_001.jpg



In the above photo of Pujols he looks to be hitting an inside pitch.

The only time you should see a reduction in lead arm extension just before contact is if the hitter is late on an inside pitch and he has to pull his lead arm in to adjust to it. Had he been on time for the pitch he would never have pulled his lead arm in.

I'm interested in hearing your argument as to why less leverage with the lead arm would result in more power.

[Bucketdad]

I'm not convinced that maintaining front arm extension is always a good idea because it could reduce adjustability.

While Pujols' front arm does often extend fully (or at least a lot), it's not on this home run swing (which I would argue is why he was able to hit the pitch out).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_001.jpg

I could see too much extension creating a hole in your swing over the inner 1/3 of the plate. That may be why Griffey Jr.'s power number are great but his BA at .288 isn't in the same league as Pujols' at .334.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/KenGriffeyJr_2008_Sequence_004.jpg

There's also the question of Jeter's front arm, which I believe is still quite bent at the POC.

IMO the image of Pujols you posted is aberrant. The clips I have are closer to the one I have included and is, IMO, Pujols' typical swing. Again, that's my opinion. The big fella has plenty of early leadr arm extension, as well as lead arm extension at contact. The point of my original post was that Yeager has explained to me (via DVDs) a few components of a high level swing that has made my daughter a more power hitter, so far. I advise any readers to look at high level swing clips a judge for themselves. That's what I do. My DD has always had a high average (never under .360 for a season) but rarely had any power. This came from me teaching her the concept of "maintain the box".
With early lead arm extension, the front side of the box is gone before the front foot hits the ground.
I am no expert and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do as I do. I'm just relating what my experience has been so far. You and anyone else can do what ever you/they see fit. I didn't want to turn this into a typical BBF shouting match, I just wanted some drills to enforce what Yeager teaches.
Thanks to FFS and halfguard for some info. Any additional info is apreciated.

Here is Mickey with about as much lead arm extension as one can get.


Skipper,
I can't answer your question because I don't know for certain what the distinction is. I am sure someone else here does. FFS touched on it in the thread.

BD

[FiveFrameSwing]

IMO the image of Pujols you posted is aberrant.

BD,

IMO, Pujols is one of those hitters that typically obtains lead arm extension prior to his forward weight shift.

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Pujols1.gif

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Pujols3.gif

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Pujols2.gif

Does anyone have video showing Pujols' early setup action so that we can see when he first obtains lead arm extension?

--FFS

[halfguard]

Originally Posted by halfguard
what are you talking about, i never commented on any dvd i havent seen

I apologize. I misinterpreted what you wrote.

In retrospect you the DVDs that you weren't happy with are not Chris Yeager's DVDs, but from another source.

The confusion was on my part.



no problem, the pic is a little misleading. its just from the torque drill...however, having said that, i have lately been doing it the chris oleary way and starting with the back elbow up*****

this is a clip of an epstein cert instr. i kind of agree with what he desribes in this clip. i think he uses a little more weight shift that a strict epstein method but i pretty much agree with his comments..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphSz0syyWA

[azmatsfan]

this is a clip of an epstein cert instr. i kind of agree with what he desribes in this clip. i think he uses a little more weight shift that a strict epstein method but i pretty much agree with his comments..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphSz0syyWA

Is it me, or do I see hip slide and disconnection on contact in his swing?

[Mark H]

The big fella has plenty of early leadr arm extension, as well as lead arm extension at contact.

Pitch location dependent.


I advise any readers to look at high level swing clips a judge for themselves. That's what I do.

:)


My DD has always had a high average (never under .360 for a season) but rarely had any power. This came from me teaching her the concept of "maintain the box".

Maintain the box is way of explaining connection. Whatever lead arm angle you have at heel plant should be maintained through the early part of the swing with late adjustment for an inside pitch and slightly earlier adjustment for an outside pitch. The adjustment for the away pitch needs to maintain connection to the rotating shoulders by allowing the energy of the swing to power any extension rather than otherwise. The late adjustment for the inside pitch, if late enough, should more easily maintain connection. My understanding.

[dannyboy]

Mark H:
Maintain the box is way of explaining connection. Whatever lead arm angle you have at heel plant should be maintained through the early part of the swing with late adjustment for an inside pitch and slightly earlier adjustment for an outside pitch. The adjustment for the away pitch needs to maintain connection to the rotating shoulders by allowing the energy of the swing to power any extension rather than otherwise. The late adjustment for the inside pitch, if late enough, should more easily maintain connection. My understanding.


Yes. Yes.
Notice the “lead arm angle” here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/MarkH.jpg.w300h471.jpg

and also notice coach Hanson in the dugout.

[Mark H]

That would be you hitting right before I mooned you.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Maintain the box is way of explaining connection. Whatever lead arm angle you have at heel plant should be maintained through the early part of the swing with late adjustment for an inside pitch and slightly earlier adjustment for an outside pitch. The adjustment for the away pitch needs to maintain connection to the rotating shoulders by allowing the energy of the swing to power any extension rather than otherwise. The late adjustment for the inside pitch, if late enough, should more easily maintain connection. My understanding.

Here's a point where we differ.

First, I agree with the importance of 'connection' and credit you for highlighting this ... that being that the 'slack' from the top hand to the torso becomes taught by the time that batter reaches footstrike.

More specifically, we don't want any extra slack between the "bottom hand" and the "lead shoulder" once we reach footstrike. IMO having the lead arm extended helps maintain this 'connection', as well as provides other attractive benefits. IMO the lead arm serves to reinforce that the bottom hand is 'connected', through an extended lead arm, to the lead shoulder.

IMO this 'connection', that being the lack of a loose linkage between the "bottom hand" and "lead shoulder", at footstrike, helps one react faster when they recongize an "inside pitch".

IMO this 'connection' assists with covering both sides of the plate.

Some believe that a batter should move into their 'gather' or 'launch position' assuming an outside pitch ... and if they recognize and inside pitch then they utilize this 'connection' to react faster to the incoming inside pitch. Some even believe that the load/gather is fractionally aborted slightly earlier (although very difficult to detect without a good deal of inside/outside workouts)and that the 'connection' of the bottom hand, to the lead shoulder, via an extended lead arm, assists with this.

At any rate, I the adjustment that some batters make to increase the bend in the lead arm upon making contact, with an inside pitch, is only necessary if one was fooled and didn't respond quickly enough to a pitch located on the inside. Had the batter recognized the inside pitch quickly enough then they would have been able to remain 'connected' to contact and they would not have had to fold their lead arm.

Just one person's opinion.

[Mark H]

At any rate, I the adjustment that some batters make to increase the bend in the lead arm upon making contact, with an inside pitch, is only necessary if one was fooled and didn't respond quickly enough to a pitch located on the inside..

To an extent but if the pitch is sufficiently inside relative to your set up I think you have to aggressively hook the handpath to hit the ball hard and keep it fair. Different batters set up different distances from the plate and display different patterns on this. Cause and effect could go either direction.

Had the batter recognized the inside pitch quickly enough then they would have been able to remain 'connected' to contact and they would not have had to fold their lead arm..

Hooking the handpath late does not mean disconnection. Connection is not defined as rigid unvarying box to contact. Connection is maintaining the connection of the energy from the rotating shoulders to the bat. This can still be done while varying the radius of the handpath.

The above relates to the following PMed question from a veteran poster which I thought I should answer here since his question indicates to me that I could have, should have, communicated better. The PM was as follows:

>>>"with late adjustment for an inside pitch and slightly earlier adjustment for an outside pitch".

Is that a typo or am I missing something?<<<

It's not a typo but I can see where my intent could be easily missed. What I'm saying is, if the location is outside, especially outside and low, then the hands will drift out ealry establishing a longer radius thus slowing rotation thus giving the ball time to come deeper. Failing to establish a longer radius handpath early will force you to disconnect to hit the outside pitch. IOW, the adjustment needs to come earlier relative to shoulder rotation. The adjustment for the inside pitch, comes later relative to shoulder rotation. As FFS pointed out this is all relative to pitch location and distance of the hitter from the plate. Stand well off the plate and you may not need to hook the handpath late to deal with the inside pitch. Hopefully this still leaves you good plate coverage on the outside.

[Mark H]

Had the batter recognized the inside pitch quickly enough then they would have been able to remain 'connected' to contact and they would not have had to fold their lead arm.

Just one person's opinion.

I should add this "folding the lead arm" is largely a result of shoulder/scapula action with any elbow flexion being largely a result rather than a cause. My understanding.

[fungo22]

I should add this "folding the lead arm" is largely a result of shoulder/scapula action with any elbow flexion being largely a result rather than a cause. My understanding.

No, Forrest. The hands manipulate the scapula and straighten the arms by pulling toward the rear. It's all hand action.

[Bucketdad]

Pitch location dependent.




:)




Maintain the box is way of explaining connection. Whatever lead arm angle you have at heel plant should be maintained through the early part of the swing with late adjustment for an inside pitch and slightly earlier adjustment for an outside pitch. The adjustment for the away pitch needs to maintain connection to the rotating shoulders by allowing the energy of the swing to power any extension rather than otherwise. The late adjustment for the inside pitch, if late enough, should more easily maintain connection. My understanding.

The problem I had with the "Maintain the box" advice (I not saying you gave me that advice) was that if it was taken literally, which I did, it would result in a swing that Mauer exhibits in this clip. It never changes in the clip.
Again, IMO, "Maintain the box" results in a well connected swing, but also results in a weaker swing. It is more of a contact (Gwynn, Rose) swing.
Mauer is 6'-5" 250lbs and hits 9 hr. Where is the power? It's left in the box IMO. Don't get me wrong, Mauer's a great hitter, he's just not a power hitter.
You wouldn't beleive the negative talk he receives locally (MN) because he doesn't hit 20+ hr.
My DD's goal for the upcoming season is to hit with power, more home runs.
Three weeks of early lead arm extension and front leg work has provided her with a substantial increase in power so far. Hitting the ball hasn't been a problem with her this year, especially after working on some Englishbey stuff early on (posture and swing plane via. spine angle and tilt) that has made a huge difference. I am hoping the Yeager stuff pays off as well as the Englishbey stuff has.
The problem with Yeager is the lack of drills. I guess I'll have to get creative.

BD

[Mark H]

Maintaining the box to contact doesn't necessarily preclude whip which is what it sounds like you were missing. Sometimes you hear things ten different ways till finally one of the ways clicks for you. Glad you're getting to your goal. Relative to my first sentence, search Steve's site for phrases like "stretching the box" or "one move" or several other phrases Steve could point you to.

[Chris O'Leary]

this is a clip of an epstein cert instr. i kind of agree with what he desribes in this clip. i think he uses a little more weight shift that a strict epstein method but i pretty much agree with his comments..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphSz0syyWA

I think this is an above-average video.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, do you have any thoughts on lead arm extension and bat drag?

I think one of the keys is the word "maintaining" (which Yeager to his credit does use when he talks about maintaining lead arm extension).

In a good swing, hitters tend to maintain the angles that they establish when the front heel plants. In contrast, many kids increase the angle of the front elbow after the front heel plants, which gets them into a draggy situation and adds a frame or more to their swing.

Pujols will reduce the angle of the front elbow to hit and inside pitch, but he doesn't increase the angle of the front elbow and thus doesn't drag.

While many pros flirt with bat drag when their shoulders start to rotate, their hands never get behind the line of their shoulders and stay in front of the line of the shoulders as they come to the lag position.

[Chris O'Leary]

The problem I had with the "Maintain the box" advice (I not saying you gave me that advice) was that if it was taken literally, which I did, it would result in a swing that Mauer exhibits in this clip. It never changes in the clip.

If you look at this clip frame by frame, you can see that it's pretty much textbook. He's connected (back elbow bent 90 degrees) at the POC and then 2 frames later gets pulled out into extension.


Again, IMO, "Maintain the box" results in a well connected swing, but also results in a weaker swing. It is more of a contact (Gwynn, Rose) swing. Mauer is 6'-5" 250lbs and hits 9 hr. Where is the power? It's left in the box IMO. Don't get me wrong, Mauer's a great hitter, he's just not a power hitter. You wouldn't beleive the negative talk he receives locally (MN) because he doesn't hit 20+ hr.

His lack of power looks more like an approach thing than anything.

With the swing I see, I see a guy who could hit for power but who probably doesn't in order to hit for average.

Of course, guys like Pujols prove that you can hit for both power and average (b/c the harder you hit the ball the less likely it is to be caught by the IF).

[Bucketdad]

Maintaining the box to contact doesn't necessarily preclude whip which is what it sounds like you were missing. Sometimes you hear things ten different ways till finally one of the ways clicks for you. Glad you're getting to your goal. Relative to my first sentence, search Steve's site for phrases like "stretching the box" or "one move" or several other phrases Steve could point you to.

Mark,

Thanks. Your comments are always welcome as far as I'm concerned.
My problem with that nomenclature (maintain the box) is taken in the literal sense, which I suspect most do here on BBF, means maintain the angles created between the lead arm bicep/lead arm forearm and the lead arm wrist angle/bat angle as held by the hands. Which simply means to most of us,
do increase the lead arm elbow angle (stretch). I posted a reply on Steve's site in response to his hatchet job on me. I fairly sure I recognize a dynamically increased angle when I see it. And I suspect it's not due to any scapular action, atleast initially. See that's the proble with Steve, he tends to overstate things. IMO. (Why use five words when 50 will do.)

Try teaching all this to a 14 yr old and a 9 yr old using this type of nomenclature. It can't be done. I know they'll be thinking WTF is he talking about. They understand box, maintain and the, but not linked together in a sentence in the context you and Steve advocate. They understand keep the "box angles" until I hit the ball. They don't understand the box is linked to connection.

Stretch the box, I can embrace and so can my kids.

Here is the clip I am refering to. Not only does she creat early lead arm extension, but her hands stretch backwards. No scap action here.

BD

[Bucketdad]

I think one of the keys is the word "maintaining" (which Yeager to his credit does use when he talks about maintaining lead arm extension).

In a good swing, hitters tend to maintain the angles that they establish when the front heel plants. In contrast, many kids increase the angle of the front elbow after the front heel plants, which gets them into a draggy situation and adds a frame or more to their swing.



Chris,

Good point. That's been my contention through out this thread.
I wouldn't call it a box at that point. Would anyone?

BD

[TDS]

Bucketdad,

Here is the clip I am refering to. Not only does she creat early lead arm extension, but her hands stretch backwards. No scap action here.


How can there not be scap action? IMO this action causes the perception of early lead arm extension

[Mark H]

Mark,

Thanks. Your comments are always welcome as far as I'm concerned.
My problem with that nomenclature (maintain the box) is taken in the literal sense, which I suspect most do here on BBF, means maintain the angles created between the lead arm bicep/lead arm forearm and the lead arm wrist angle/bat angle as held by the hands. Which simply means to most of us,
do increase the lead arm elbow angle (stretch).

Not entirely sure I follow you here but maintain the box refers to connection. From heel plant, after you have "stretched the box", you hope to pretty much maintain the box through the early part of shoulder rotation. Letting the hands out a little/increasing the radius of the hand path to account for an outside pitch would be an exception. I'll worry about the exceptions when a hitter shows me they can put a good swing on a middle middle pitch. If you can't drive that one, I don't think we are ready to move on to other pitch locations.


I posted a reply on Steve's site in response to his hatchet job on me.

He's adamant on the info and much of the tone gets lost due to the written word. If you were standing together discussing this I don't believe you would be offended. But he ain't all that polished and proper like a British gentleman that's for sure.



I fairly sure I recognize a dynamically increased angle when I see it. And I suspect it's not due to any scapular action, atleast initially.

I'd say the two of you are having two different conversations together and you are not following him and he's not figuring that out. As to scapular action that I'm talking about, that's during shoulder rotation and it's something few do understand. But yes, there is a lot of scapular action that is part of the load/stretching the box.



See that's the proble with Steve, he tends to overstate things. IMO. (Why use five words when 50 will do.)

The problem with words is their lack of explanatory power and their tendency to be interpreted through the prism of our prior understanding. He uses those words in his zeal to help all understand.



Try teaching all this to a 14 yr old and a 9 yr old using this type of nomenclature. It can't be done. I know they'll be thinking WTF is he talking about. They understand box, maintain and the, but not linked together in a sentence in the context you and Steve advocate. They understand keep the "box angles" until I hit the ball. They don't understand the box is linked to connection.

Steve is speaking to trainers here on the web usually. When he's coaching kids, he shows more often than speaks and when he does speak, he uses different language than when he's addressing trainers.

Stretch the box, I can embrace and so can my kids.

Got that term from Steve and you will find it all over his website.

Here is the clip I am refering to. Not only does she creat early lead arm extension, but her hands stretch backwards. No scap action here.

BD

Actually there is a lot of scap action here though the scap action I've been talking about to create the hook is the unloading of this loading. But yes, she stretches the box. You can find much discussion of same confirming this on Steve's site. Your disagreement with him is created entirely by misunderstanding which fault for has to be shared always by the communicator as well as the student.

[Bucketdad]

TDS, Mark,


What I am trying to convey (unsuccessfully) is the action of the lead arm from the stance, load, to the toe touch. See FFS post #6 in this thread regarding early lead arm extension transpirring as the stride occurs. There is no scapular action that can be detected in this clip from frames 1 thru 13. Any contention of scapular action during this phase of her swing would be a guess
as there is no visual evidence. What exactly are scaps doing during frames 1 thru 13?
There is evidence of her hands stretching back and her elbow joint flattening
out (increasing the angle)

BD

[TDS]

The action I am refering to is (pulling the bow string back) using the rear scap to do so.

[jofus]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53130&stc=1&d=1223566844

Well, it does look like her extension stops when her front foot lands, starting the rotation. I saw someone post that should happen, either here or over on Steve's site, I forget which.

I've been struggling with my DD (and son) on this issue, among others. I guess maybe it's more of an issue of timing than anything (the lead arm straightening out, that is) ?

[dominik]

Hey guys I'm new here and by no means am expert but I will put in my 2 cent.

I don't think that getting early extention ist that important but rather the second point maintaining extension.

Makin writes: "Whether the batter has the lead-arm straight or flexed, the important point to remember is that the arm should not flex any further during initiation. The more the lead-arm flexes during rotation, the more linear the resulting hand-path. "

I hink this is the clue: if you flex the arm further after initiation of the rotation(swing) you have a bad energy transfer. That's why the arm must be fixed in the swing: in order to transfer rotational momentum via circular hand path.

The arm must be rigid after initiation to transfer energy and must not continue to bend. Wether it's straight or not is not so important.

Of course the arm must not be extremely bend(90° or so) or the lever gets to short and you don't get the hand true, so it should be "relativly extended" and then rigid, but I don't think it must be as extended as in for example a golf swing.

The only time this becomes a problem is when a batter flexes his front arm during the swing in order to achieve a linear hand path.

rgds dominik

PS great site. Sorry for my english, I'm no native speaker.

[wogdoggy]

not all hand action,,just late ,,,


pros dont have forearms like popeye for no reason....


Golf tips: Power Positions



Golf tips to play golf

This drill produces an action called the release (rolling over of the hands and forearms). A proper release greatly helps generate increased clubhead speed. Put a tee in the butt end of the grip on a mid-iron. Begin a slow backswing. Stop when the tee in the grip points directly at the ball.

Swing slowly through until on your follow-through the tee in the grip again points at the starting ball position. Take some practice swings. Gradually increase the speed of your swing making sure to go no further back or further forward than your original positions. Now hit some balls.

Purpose
To gain distance. The key factor to achieving distance in golf is the speed of the clubhead. This drill helps create maximum clubhead speed at impact by promoting a full release. The release is the rolling over of the wrists and forearms during the swing. The whipping motion helps generate clubhead speed. Failing to release or releasing late inhibits the use of the wrists as a powerful element in the swing. The more your muscles work together, the greater the clubhead speed through the shot.

To square the club at impact. Without the rolling of the wrists and the forearms (release) during the downswing, the clubface cannot close to a square position at impact. Your ball flight from an open clubface will always be to the right. A good release will give you the confidence to swing hard and fast without worrying about hitting slices and fades.

Do and Don'ts
People have many types of backswings. The important factor is to get to the power position on your downswing and again on your follow-through. Hit some practice balls using this drill. You may be surprised by the power you can generate with your wrist and forearms.



YOU MAY BE REAL SURPRISED !

[Mark H]

TDS, Mark,


What I am trying to convey (unsuccessfully) is the action of the lead arm from the stance, load, to the toe touch. See FFS post #6 in this thread regarding early lead arm extension transpirring as the stride occurs. There is no scapular action that can be detected in this clip from frames 1 thru 13. Any contention of scapular action during this phase of her swing would be a guess
as there is no visual evidence. What exactly are scaps doing during frames 1 thru 13?
There is evidence of her hands stretching back and her elbow joint flattening
out (increasing the angle)

BD

Only have a moment so without going back to check your referenced clips, when the hands are loading back/box being stretched one of the things that is happening is, for a rh hitter, the left scap is being stretched away from the spine and the right scap is squeezing toward the spine. Many people don't grasp the range of dynamic motion the shoulders/scaps are capable of in terms of angle changes.

[Jake Patterson]

PS great site. Sorry for my english, I'm no native speaker.

Thanks! .

[Rajun Cajun]

Due to recent BBF discussion subjects (namely hitting instruction) . I was, and still am, interested in what the learned have to say about hitting the ball.
I have purchased yet another dvd series, Yeager this time. I purchased all of them for $95. I am struck with how accurate his observations truly are. I realized that my daughter was lacking in three important components of a high level swing:
1. Linear push forward from the back leg
2. Early front arm extension I think he says 135 degrees or more
3. Front leg push after bent knee (front) blocking

She and I have concentrated our efforts on early front arm extension and correcting the front leg action as described by Yeager. The initial results are amazing. We are into our dome season up here and she has gone 9 for 10 with a couple of walks. She has 4 doubles (2 of them were ground rule one hop over the fence doubles) 4 singles and her first over the fence home run (200 foot fence). Her dome season coaches, who haven’t seen her since this past spring, said she looks like a new player.

I’m not saying Yeager is the end all of hitting instruction, but is, IMO, a very important component and should be incorporated into a hitter’s training program. There are areas in which he doesn’t cover or glosses over, but all of those areas were addressed in other instruction dvd/programs I own.
I own: Lau jr. – Candrea/Enquist (Slaught) – Englishbey – Stockton – Cohen (drills) – Jarmillo sp? – and now Yeager. I have books from: Ted Williams, Lau jr, and Luis Ortiz (the best hitting drill book you’ve never heard of). And I also rely on BBF which is a true double edged sword.

My point is that any dad/mom/coach/player who relies on one source for teaching/learning hitting mechanics is going to miss the boat. The reason: all the aforementioned have elements which are spot on and should be practiced. They also have areas that are IMO incorrect and should be avoided. The trick is to recognize this and that aint easy. They are, as someone here once stated, "a tool in the box".

I have a request. Yeager’s dvds lack practice drills (he has only 2 on the dvds). I am at this point asking if any Yeager followers have developed or come across drills to address his lower body mechanics as well as early lead arm extension. I have figured out a couple
but I am looking for more. Mine involve a heavy bag and my 14 yr old DD shouldn’t do this too much, it will injure her if I over use the heavy bag drills.

Thanks,

BD

Yeager does have a practice drills DVD. I have it. It has 3 simple drills we work on. He keeps his drills simple and brief.

[Rajun Cajun]

I see a lot of talk about lead arm extension. Yeager will talk about that during his training. He also talks about hitting the pitch where it is pitched. So, the ability (or desire) to have the lead arm act in a certain way is dependent upon the pitch. You can't possibly encapsulate everything about Yeager's approach into a simple, or single DVD. You have to be a learned student of Yeager's to be well rounded enough to "get it."

I still don't "get" all of it. but it is a process. A few on this board have some of my son's video analysis by yeager. Lead arm extension is not a must have, but it there is a place for it, especially on the middle to outside pitches.

[ShawnB]

I like the swing of Bustos in that swing, like anything hitters do not always do the same thing from year to year, or month to month.

In that swing she is successfully making the bat the last link in the chain. And for a woman who is more then likely as strong as many of the men who post on this website, that is pretty good use of her body. The one thing you don't see in this clip is how much she lowers herself prior to release and before the stride. So the backside, glutes, hamstrings, are well loaded prior to the stride as well as creating stability, and this stability is created prior to the hands moving back creating some lead arm extension.

With this motion, there isn't a "real" strong bottom hand cocked position seen in many hitters. Although we can find many hitters who don't have a strong forward cocked position, and the bat is more or less in neutral position or close to it.

Not allot of fancy coiling and uncoiling, pretty much the hands move back and the stride is reaching forward and lower body starts. This isn't loading in the sense she is moving the hands back and then driving them forward.

There is also another thing to consider, many, many, girls/woman do not have broad shoulders like men. In baseball most mens lead arms matches up to their shoulder width or at least much closer then the typical softball players with their narrow shoulders and long skinny arms. And the way many softball players compensate for this issue, doesn't always create the best swings.

[RayR]

TDS, Mark,


What I am trying to convey (unsuccessfully) is the action of the lead arm from the stance, load, to the toe touch. See FFS post #6 in this thread regarding early lead arm extension transpirring as the stride occurs. There is no scapular action that can be detected in this clip from frames 1 thru 13. Any contention of scapular action during this phase of her swing would be a guess
as there is no visual evidence. What exactly are scaps doing during frames 1 thru 13?There is evidence of her hands stretching back and her elbow joint flattening
out (increasing the angle)

BD

The scaps are creating the arm action you see. Simply, if the arms were really doing the work the front arm would bar out and there could not be the explosive reversal of movement that you see in Bustos swing.

[dominik]

Can someone explain what is meant with scapula action, please? I don't really get it.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I see a lot of talk about lead arm extension. Yeager will talk about that during his training.

[....]

Lead arm extension is not a must have, but it there is a place for it, especially on the middle to outside pitches.

I suppose nothing is a "must have" ... but IMO, lead arm extension is a significant contributor to driving the ball hard. I encourage all of my students to "obtain lead arm extension" and "maintain lead arm extension". Time and again I'll take a student lacking adequate lead-arm extension and show them how they can drive the ball much farther with lead-arm extension. It's pretty convincing.

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/Manny21_leadarm.gif

[Rajun Cajun]

I love lead arm extension and I strive to get my son to do it from the point of impact through the rest of the swing. But, sometimes it doesn't work out. He gets fooled by a pitch, or some other flaw comes up that prevents it, or inhibits it. So, for where we are in our progression, I stress it, but I don't beat him up if it doesn't always happen. I should have clarified that.

For my son, if he is lazy and doesn't start with his hands far enough back he doesn't have enough time (micro seconds) to fully extend and the motion appears slightly compressed. It all seems to start at point zero. If he has a good stance, hands back, and bat cocked he can usually achieve the lead arm extension. If he is not pre-set well enough he doesn't have time to get his hands back at pre-launch position, and therefore won't be able to achieve the extension.

[ShawnB]

I think scap loading starting when I posted a clip of Nomar from a back angle and talked about how his back elbow/arm moved toward the dugout.

Prior to that I never heard anyone use the term scap loading.

Scap loading is a terrible description on what is happening in most swings. It creates tension in the upperbody, because it signifies "using" specific muscles, instead of teaching the motion in which the muscles will respond to the motion.

And I also posted a research paper on the role of the scapula and transferring energy from the body.

Creating any torques will travel to the other end of the body. So if the lower body creates some torque the upper body will not open at the same rate as the lower body. Creating torques with the upperbody creates a even worse affect on the lower body, it will delay hip rotation and you don't even have to create very much tension to completely stop the lowerbody. Create enough tension or torque with the upperbody and you can even make the hips reverse direction completely.

The upper body seems to affect the other end, more then the lower body.

Scap loading is a poor description of what takes place. It would be and is far better to do training for the scapula which will improve muscle coordination between the arms/shoulder and scapula.

As far as focusing on the scapula loading, I have down test after test with the same results. Since I started training the scaps, the improved coordination was noticed the first time, with no tension or poor reaction from using specific muscles.

[RayR]

I think scap loading starting when I posted a clip of Nomar from a back angle and talked about how his back elbow/arm moved toward the dugout.

Prior to that I never heard anyone use the term scap loading.

Scap loading is a terrible description on what is happening in most swings. It creates tension in the upperbody, because it signifies "using" specific muscles, instead of teaching the motion in which the muscles will respond to the motion.

And I also posted a research paper on the role of the scapula and transferring energy from the body.

Creating any torques will travel to the other end of the body. So if the lower body creates some torque the upper body will not open at the same rate as the lower body. Creating torques with the upperbody creates a even worse affect on the lower body, it will delay hip rotation and you don't even have to create very much tension to completely stop the lowerbody. Create enough tension or torque with the upperbody and you can even make the hips reverse direction completely.

The upper body seems to affect the other end, more then the lower body.

Scap loading is a poor description of what takes place. It would be and is far better to do training for the scapula which will improve muscle coordination between the arms/shoulder and scapula.

As far as focusing on the scapula loading, I have down test after test with the same results. Since I started training the scaps, the improved coordination was noticed the first time, with no tension or poor reaction from using specific muscles.

I agree that it shouldn't looked at as scap loading, but more about how to use the muscles in the scapular complex to create movement of the arms for one thing. Get this down and you are on your way to pretty sweet swing, IMO.

It is defintely not a tension thing.

[ShawnB]

RayR,

Absolutely, since training the scapula's with arm/shoulder movement, I can reach higher. I feel like I've gained arm length when reaching for something up high.

And while hitting, I have been exercising the total body, which is leading to an overall effortless swing, the upperbody is one area where I can tell the difference.

[TDS]

ShawnB

Scap loading is a terrible description on what is happening in most swings. It creates tension in the upperbody, because it signifies "using" specific muscles, instead of teaching the motion in which the muscles will respond to the motion.

So are you saying the stretching un-stretching of the shoulder complex is a non teach? I have found this to be a fairly simple teach by allowing everything else to work off of this action.

[baseballislife2008]

The problem I had with the "Maintain the box" advice (I not saying you gave me that advice) was that if it was taken literally, which I did, it would result in a swing that Mauer exhibits in this clip. It never changes in the clip.
Again, IMO, "Maintain the box" results in a well connected swing, but also results in a weaker swing. It is more of a contact (Gwynn, Rose) swing.
Mauer is 6'-5" 250lbs and hits 9 hr. Where is the power? It's left in the box IMO. Don't get me wrong, Mauer's a great hitter, he's just not a power hitter.
You wouldn't beleive the negative talk he receives locally (MN) because he doesn't hit 20+ hr.
My DD's goal for the upcoming season is to hit with power, more home runs.
Three weeks of early lead arm extension and front leg work has provided her with a substantial increase in power so far. Hitting the ball hasn't been a problem with her this year, especially after working on some Englishbey stuff early on (posture and swing plane via. spine angle and tilt) that has made a huge difference. I am hoping the Yeager stuff pays off as well as the Englishbey stuff has.
The problem with Yeager is the lack of drills. I guess I'll have to get creative.

BD

I am no expert but being a Yeager disciple it looks to me like Mauer is not creating as much power as he could because of 2 things.

1. He doesn't get enough lead arm extension
2. He is not "getting off" his back side or he is not "shifting his center of pressure" correctly.

If you look at Mauer's swing here it's obvious that he was taught to stay back. If you drew a line from his neck to his belt buckle you would see that it would be angled back towards the catcher and not straight up in a 90 degree angle (relative to the ground). It looks like this could be robbing him of potential power. Seeing that he's a big guy if he could correct this and correctly shift his weight onto his front side better then he could develop more power and his HR numbers should definetley go up.