Can Tampa Bay Save baseball in Florida

[zahavasdad]

Do you think TB can save Baseball in Florida.

of all the newer places baseball has expanded too, I would have thought that Florida would be prime Baseball territory (Due to Spring training and many Northerners who have migrated there.

Sadly baseball has failed in Florida until now, The 2 Florida teams have some of the worst attendance figures.

While poor management has been the excuse before in Miami and TB (Cheap Owers). It doesnt appear that the current TB management will sell off the team, and they could be good for many years to come.

[bob]

I think if they jsut had 1 florida team that would have helped. Putting 2 in at the same time meant alot of people ended up rooting for one or the other, cutting attendance at both.
The Marlins have won 2 WS and saw attendance barely increase. Tampa certainly looks like a more likely 'savior' (strong farm system, owners who want to win rather than just make money, fighting to keep good players). If they can sustain 2 or 3 years of being in contention in the AL east then they will establish a much bigger fanbase. It didnt help the Marlins that the year after they won their first WS they had a 108 loss season.

[greenbay63]

****I think if they jsut had 1 florida team that would have helped. Putting 2 in at the same time meant alot of people ended up rooting for one or the other, cutting attendance at both.*****

I'm not sure that is true. I used to live in Florida on the Atlantic side. I would not have drove to Tampa for any kind of event. Just too far when I could go 45 minutes to Miami. I suppose if I had stayed I would have eventually gone to a Marlins game. I went to see the Heat and a U of Miami basketball game.

The NHL and NBA have two teams and the NFL has three.

I just think it's hard to get a fan base in Florida for baseball. Until the 90s, MLB wasn't there during the regular season so people rooted for the teams that trained in the area where they lived. It may take a generation before baseball really works.

[gman5431]

From what i know and who i know in the FL area - baseball during the summer is too saturated there. The major league teams may do better then they are doing now, but they will never flourish. FL has spring training, the FL St league and the Gulf Coast league. When a family is presented with an option of a minor league game or major league game, with major league prices the decision is easy. Also, the weather in Florida lends itself to many outside activities around the water. There is just a lot going on there and major league baseball takes a back seat. The Marlins have won and never drew. It didnt help that their organization was basically a mercenary system. The Rays have a great org and will do well for years to come, probably see a rise in attendance but i dont forsee they will ever be a great draw and at the first downturn on the field, the seats will be effected as well.

G Man

[Jim Vaz]

Personally I don't think it was going away anyway. Despite the poor numbers and a poor following by both teams, the Marlins are going ahead and are steps away from getting a stadium deal done, and the Rays for now are fine.

I think though its imperitive the Rays get a new park. They can be smart about it as well, it doesn't have to be 60,000 seats. If the Mets in NY can go to 45,000 seats in the huge NY market then I don't see any reason why the Rays can't have a 30 to 35,000 retractable roof stadium with all the amenities and luxury suites they want and can sell.

Florida as a whole has never been a great professional sports state for many reasons, some listed here.
Its always been about collegiate sports and the minor leagues. Ask anyone in Florida there favorite football team and they will tell you its either the Gators, Seminoles, or Canes. Thats just the way it is.

[Biggtone23]

I lived in Tampa for four years during college so I can talk a little about what its like downthere. As Greenbay63 mentioned Miami and Tampa are not the same market, not even close. It is roughly about a 5 hour drive from one to the other. The attendance figures for both the GCL and FSL are actually pretty bad. A couple of FSL team draw well but most don't. In 2007 of the 175 affiliated teams, plus the mexican league 4 FSL teams finished in the bottom 10 of average attendance with less than a thousand (Dunedin, Sarasota, Vero Beach and Lakeland). I might be mistaken but I dont think they even charge to get into GCL games.

As for the state of the game in Florida. With the Marlins looking more and more like they will get their new stadium in Miami, you could draw comparisons to this Rays team and the 95 Mariners. While there may not be a few future Hall of Famers on the roster the run the team is making now could save the team and get a new stadium built. Without the 95 Mariners Safeco Field doesnt get built, same thing here this team could help to get the new waterfront stadium built. Their timing may hurt them though with the economic situation right now.

The only thing I would bet on is the team not playing out the last 20 years of their lease on Tropicana Field. It was a mistake for MLB to give Tampa Bay a team without the promise of a better ballpark.

[bluezebra]

From what i know and who i know in the FL area - baseball during the summer is too saturated there. The major league teams may do better then they are doing now, but they will never flourish. FL has spring training, the FL St league and the Gulf Coast league. When a family is presented with an option of a minor league game or major league game, with major league prices the decision is easy. Also, the weather in Florida lends itself to many outside activities around the water. There is just a lot going on there and major league baseball takes a back seat. The Marlins have won and never drew. It didnt help that their organization was basically a mercenary system. The Rays have a great org and will do well for years to come, probably see a rise in attendance but i dont forsee they will ever be a great draw and at the first downturn on the field, the seats will be effected as well.

G Man

The Phoenix, AZ area has TEN (10) teams in Spring Training (Cactus League). There are NINE (9) teams in the Arizona Rookie League.

Diamondbacks attendance:
2004..2,519,560
2005..2,059,424
2006..2,091,685
2007..2,325,249
2008..2,509,924

Having Spring Training in the area, and a Rookie league IN TOWN, hasn't hurt the D'backs attendance.

Bob

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The Phoenix, AZ area has TEN (10) teams in Spring Training (Cactus League). There are NINE (9) teams in the Arizona Rookie League.

Diamondbacks attendance:
2004..2,519,560
2005..2,059,424
2006..2,091,685
2007..2,325,249
2008..2,509,924

Having Spring Training in the area, and a Rookie league IN TOWN, hasn't hurt the D'backs attendance.

Bob
Florida and Arizona are very different in terms of population densities. I suspect that the vast majority of Arizonians live near Phoenix or Tucson. And Tucson is about 114 miles from Phoenix, much closer than Miami-Tampa/St Petersburg. Florida has a much more spread out population.

[gman5431]

The Phoenix, AZ area has TEN (10) teams in Spring Training (Cactus League). There are NINE (9) teams in the Arizona Rookie League.

Diamondbacks attendance:
2004..2,519,560
2005..2,059,424
2006..2,091,685
2007..2,325,249
2008..2,509,924

Having Spring Training in the area, and a Rookie league IN TOWN, hasn't hurt the D'backs attendance.

Bob

There is a different culture and feel in FL then there is in AZ. Maybe its the beach, maybe its the people. Dont know for certain but i dont ever seen either major league team in Florida sustaining good attendance numbers.

G Man

[Imgran]

Should we mention that The Marlins are competing in what used to be Braves country, with Atlanta not all that far away, while the Rays are an AL team with no other AL teams this side of Baltimore, KC and Arlington?

[keystone]

I'm thinking that the demographics in Florida don't bode well for either the Marlins or the Rays.

Sure, when one of those teams is in the playoffs, they draw the fair-weather fans. But so many people who live there are from other parts of the US, and they have brought their team loyalties with them.

Plus, people who watch spring training games there may have "adopted" an out-of-area team because they have spent several years watching them train.

[San Antonio was used in the bribe to get the Marlins their new stadium. Lots of people really wanted them to come here so SA could finally have a big league team. Alas, we were shamelessly used, and the deal never got off the ground. Besides, I don't think SA would support baseball. Our town is Spurs/Cowboys territory, with the Astros pulling up somewhere below high school football.]

[Avg_Hr_Rbi]

I'm thinking that the demographics in Florida don't bode well for either the Marlins or the Rays.

Sure, when one of those teams is in the playoffs, they draw the fair-weather fans. But so many people who live there are from other parts of the US, and they have brought their team loyalties with them.

Plus, people who watch spring training games there may have "adopted" an out-of-area team because they have spent several years watching them train


exactly, I have family in both Ocala and Port Charlotte and in PC you still have alot of O's fans (from their days there in ST many yrs ago) and also the Rangers which trained there until they moved to Az just recently.....

but trust me, alot of the retirees down there still carry their loyalty from their original states teams and don't really attend many games unless their team is in town...i.e the Yankees and Red Sox for example....

[keystone]

That's a tough situation to overcome, no matter how good and lovable a team is.

[Imgran]

I'm thinking that the demographics in Florida don't bode well for either the Marlins or the Rays.

Sure, when one of those teams is in the playoffs, they draw the fair-weather fans. But so many people who live there are from other parts of the US, and they have brought their team loyalties with them.

Plus, people who watch spring training games there may have "adopted" an out-of-area team because they have spent several years watching them train.

[San Antonio was used in the bribe to get the Marlins their new stadium. Lots of people really wanted them to come here so SA could finally have a big league team. Alas, we were shamelessly used, and the deal never got off the ground. Besides, I don't think SA would support baseball. Our town is Spurs/Cowboys territory, with the Astros pulling up somewhere below high school football.]

You could have said the exact same thing about Atlanta back in the day. They got over it.

A lot of places have people that moved there from away. That's not a bar to your ability to build up a fanbase and start converting people. Does make it harder though, especially if access to old true loves is so much greater now thanks MLBTV, etc.

Building up a deep, solid fanbase that can stay with you in the bad times is a generational thing. It doesn't happen overnight. Give it time, and I mean a lot of time.

That said, the Marlins have taken so many steps backward to alienate their fanbase that it's possible that Jeff Loria has destroyed his second franchise. There IS a point of no return beyond which a given ownership group can't save the team and needs to hand the reins over..

[keystone]

Good point, Ingram. I didn't realize that about Atlanta. All good things take time!

Why Loria is being rewarded with a new stadium boggles the mind. It's not going to make much of a difference for a long, long time -- if ever.