Gripping the bat

[tip184]

I have never understood the benefits of having the knocking knuckles aligned. Sure it allows more wrist snap, but it weakens the grip on the bat and means a pitch could knock the bat out of your hands. Could someone please confirm whether the knocking knuckles aligned is the right way to grip the bat? Also, how do those thumb grippy devices work to enforce you're holding the bat the right way?

[korp]

Knocking knuckles allows for a loose grip aka more bat speed ect. At contact your hands are suppose to tighten up naturally .... I have never heard of anybody having the bat knocked out of their hands because again naturally your hands should tighten up at contact. Some have their hands half way past the knockers and between the next knuckle because it doesn't feel as awkward but its a personal preference ... as long as the bat is not deep in your hands and your knuckles are not way off. I think you are talking about the circular thumb pad thing ... the only thing grip wise I can think of is making sure the bat is not deep in your thumb, but are mainly meant to reduce the sting from hitting the ball on the handle.

[mudvnine]

Korp pretty much said it all, but I would add that if the knuckles are rotated past the "half way" point korp mentions, then the hitter has a propensity to "roll-over" early in their extension phase.

Depending on where they happen to make contact with a particular pitch and their extension phase begins, this roll-over action will generate a simple, weak grounder to the infield.

[Jake Patterson]

I have never understood the benefits of having the knocking knuckles aligned. Sure it allows more wrist snap, but it weakens the grip on the bat and means a pitch could knock the bat out of your hands. Could someone please confirm whether the knocking knuckles aligned is the right way to grip the bat? Also, how do those thumb grippy devices work to enforce you're holding the bat the right way?
I know few good instructors who teach aligned knuckles

[LAball]

I feel its easier to know be more precise with the bat when the knuckles are aligned

[Jake Patterson]

I feel its easier to know be more precise with the bat when the knuckles are aligned Not certain what this means. How do you teach a youngster how to be precise with a bat?

[FiveFrameSwing]

In the photo believe you'll see that Arod's grip doesn't have the knocking knuckles aligned. Looks more like the knuckles of the top hand align with where one would wear a ring on their bottom hand.

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/AROD_at_contact.jpg

[FiveFrameSwing]

Do you suppose the knuckle orientation changes from launch to contact?

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/bat_slot_delgado_carlos041003.jpg

[LAball]

Not certain what this means. How do you teach a youngster how to be precise with a bat?

Its easier for me to feel where the middle of the bat is, width wise. not length.

[Swing Coach]

The reason the mlb'ers don't line up their knocking knuckles is because most load with their back elbow up...which makes it very hard to line up the knocking knuckles. The knuckles move closer to knocking position during the swing as the elbow comes down.

I played my whole career (thru college) with knuckles lined up...think it helps with bat control...but severely hurts power. I was a punch and judy guy only.

SC

[FiveFrameSwing]

The reason the mlb'ers don't line up their knocking knuckles is because most load with their back elbow up...which makes it very hard to line up the knocking knuckles. The knuckles move closer to knocking position during the swing as the elbow comes down.

I played my whole career (thru college) with knuckles lined up...think it helps with bat control...but severely hurts power. I was a punch and judy guy only.

SC

Good post.

IMO, the bat barrel should be considered an extension of the lead-arm at 'contact'. Notice in the photo below the alignment at 'contact' from the 'lead shoulder' to the 'lead elbow' to the 'bottom hand' to the 'bat barrel'. This is very different than the orientation wrt the top ARM/hand. From this perspective it makes more sense to me to have the grip that Epstein recommends at 'contact' (that being that the top-hand knocking knuckles are aligned with the ring position of the bottom-hand ... see photo below).

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/AROD_at_contact.jpg


IMO, if you curb the top-arm rearward elbow action, then you will take away from the top-ARM/hand throwing action and this will significantly degrade one's swing potential. See video clip below. Notice what Mike has to say about the top-ARM/hand throwing action. Notice how he instructs having the bat tipping forward to help exaggerate the throwing motion.

To Hand Throwing Drill - Mike Candrea (http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/RVP_IP300_SB/82_Hitting_DRILLS_Top_Hand_2__Mike.wmv)

One suggestion is to have your hitting students "backwards chain". Have them bring their bat barrel to 'contact' using the grip recommended by Epstein. From here have them "backwards chain", or move back into their launch position. They will quickly learn the how to get their top-hand into a strong position, allowing an efficient top ARM/hand throwing action, while realizing the desired grip at 'contact'.

[mudvnine]

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/Videos/AROD_at_contact.jpg


IMO, if you curb the top-arm rearward elbow action, then you will take away from the top-ARM/hand throwing action and this will significantly degrade one's swing potential. See video clip below. Notice what Mike has to say about the top-ARM/hand throwing action. Notice how he instructs having the bat tipping forward to help exaggerate the throwing motion.

To Hand Throwing Drill - Mike Candrea (http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/RVP_IP300_SB/82_Hitting_DRILLS_Top_Hand_2__Mike.wmv)

One suggestion is to have your hitting students "backwards chain". Have them bring their bat barrel to 'contact' using the grip recommended by Epstein. From here have them "backwards chain", or move back into their launch position. They will quickly learn the how to get their top-hand into a strong position, allowing an efficient top ARM/hand throwing action, while realizing the desired grip at 'contact'.


Wow! I'd be very careful recommending that video drill to the new dad trying to help his son/daughter early in their quest. . . that is a recipe for disaster and will lead to severe bat drag if not taught correctly and unless they know what they are looking for.

I do however, like the "backwards chain(ing)" idea that you recommend . . . I show it a lot on the slo-mo software to my hitters, but I've never had them actually do it in the cage, I think I'll give it a try today with a couple of them.

As for A-Rod's knuckle alignment, he is at the "half way" point that korp states and where I believe to be the maximum extent of "rotation" away from the middle knuckle alignment before you anatomically start positioning the forearms to limit extension and begin to rollover more.

And yes, it's not the alignment at load, but rather at launch and contact. David Ortiz is a great example of this, you'll notice his middle knuckles aligned at contact . . .

[LAball]

Tip and rip helps to line up the knuckles.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wow! I'd be very careful recommending that video drill to the new dad trying to help his son/daughter early in their quest. . . that is a recipe for disaster and will lead to severe bat drag if not taught correctly and unless they know what they are looking for.


I believe I understand your concern, and I'm inclined to agree with you.

As an FYI, someone that I respect as a hitter and teacher once told me that "a good swing boarders on the edge of bat drag".

That said ... it's best to be watchful when performing a drill like this to make sure that one is avoiding 'bat drag'.

[THop]

In my opinion during the stance, move back and load/stride, the knuckles don’t matter near as much as the amount of bend/flex a hitter can get into both his wrists (my cue is “cupped wrists”). In my opinion, every great hitter lines up his knuckles somewhat differently, but their wrists look and act the same (to me anyhow-except maybe in 2 strike situations). In my opinion, cupped wrists enhance “tip and rip” and really enable hitters to add late power/bat speed when they un-cock or “throw hands” in an over and under fashion. Just my opinion though.

THop

[mudvnine]

As an FYI, someone that I respect as a hitter and teacher once told me that "a good swing boarders on the edge of bat drag".

Interesting . . . he may not be too far from the truth; there are a few free swinging MLB'ers like Vlad who this might pretain to.

[mudvnine]

In my opinion, every great hitter lines up his knuckles somewhat differently, but their wrists look and act the same (to me anyhow-except maybe in 2 strike situations). In my opinion, cupped wrists enhance “tip and rip” and really enable hitters to add late power/bat speed when they un-cock or “throw hands” in an over and under fashion. Just my opinion though.

THop

Hmmm, you may be on to something here, please expand a bit more on what you mean by "cupped wrists". I think I know where you're headed, but I just want to be sure.

If at all possible, please throw in a picture just to make it a bit easier to understand.

Thanks,
Mud

[THop]

See post below

[THop]

Mud

“Cupped wrist” (bottom hand) is an old term that I use when trying to get a golfer into the proper position at the top of his back swing. In my opinion, in golf the hands are “just along for the ride” as they contribute more to accuracy than club head speed. In baseball, it’s the opposite (since accuracy means very little), so a hitter can afford to use his hands (and wrists) as a power source (late).

In the baseball swing, “cupped wrists” is when BOTH wrists are bent in vs. flat or bowed out.

Where the angle between the top of the forearm and back of the hand are more like 120-130 degrees vs. 180 degrees (flat). Also, where BOTH wrists are very “fluid” and “flexible” vs. fixed or rigid.

In my studies, every MLB hitter utilizes cupped wrists in the batter’s box (fundamental), but each one of them aligns and moves theirs differently (style).

THop

[rkbenn]

What about placement of the bat in the hands? palm, fingers? I've been taught fingers.

[THop]

rkbenn,

Me too, but I have always taught "lightly and where the fingers and hands join".

THop

[tip184]

What is bat drag?

[Ursa Major]

What is bat drag?Tip, this generally is defined as letting the back elbow precede the hands into the hitting zone -- a common problem among young (under 10 hitters).

MudV, your backward chaining idea is good. What I often do is have the kid start with the bat at the point of contact with the top palm facing up and the bottom hand palm facing down; the top arm should be in the power L position. This by definition results in the knocking knuckles being aligned. Now, if the kid brings the hands and body bag into launch position, there will be an overwhelming urge to rotate that top hand inward about an eighth turn so that the top knocking knuckles now become aligned with the "ring position" on the bottom hand. If he does that enough, when he swings with the top hand starting loose (but reflexively tightening just before contact), the reverse of this rotation will occur, which helps prevent premature wrist rolling.

A good way to run this drill which I picked up from Jack Mankin of Batspeed.com is to use a boxer's heavy bag and hit into it. This allows the kid to set up the proper body etc. position at the point of contact, and then reverse chain back from there. It's great for helping kids who tend to let their hands push tooo far forward toward the pitcher before making contact. Because the bat stops at the contact point when it hits the bag, you can see exactly what the kid is doing at contact.

[callyjr]

I teach like how Arod is above. It helps keep the back elbow in closer to the side. If you just put the bat out in front of the kid and tell him to pick it up with both hands he will grab it like Arods grip.


Cally