Hitting the Low Ball [Archive]

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 09:08 AM

What is your guys opinion in hitting that ball low in the zone? Any body adjustments (ie lead arm, or getting low to get the ball) or bat angle adjustment?

Major league hitters tend to do it primarily via tilt (and some extension).

The Williams/Epstein concept of hinging the back knee (while swinging level) to hit the low ball has been disproven.

Bucketdad

10-03-2008, 09:41 AM

tilt with connection, extension and balance, wow it can be done.
Can't wait to see who will try to disprove this one.

And the winner is . . . . . .

wogdoggy

10-03-2008, 09:42 AM

tilt with connection, extension and balance, wow it can be done.
Can't wait to see who will try to disprove this one.

And the winner is . . . . . .

teach it and watch your kid freeze..the winner is the person who uses their hands and their eyes better..kinda the same skills needed in ping pong

grab a bat tilt and dont move or adjust your hands..just hit the ball by setting your tilt and rotating,,remember its all tilt all the time,,,and good luck

Bucketdad

10-03-2008, 09:50 AM

wogdoggy

10-03-2008, 09:53 AM

I have taught it to my 14 yo DD.
She's by far the best hitter (and low ball hitter) on her elite team.
She's the only girl who consistantly hits the drop ball.

She also uses her hands when unhinging her wrists.

I guess she has her cake and eats too.

By the way, Thanks Woog for the advice on using the broom to feel extension. She began using the broom a couple of weeks ago.
She gets full extension and is crushing the ball.
Thanks,

Bd

thanks man got that tip from a golf book....takes the broom stick drill to feel how the forearms and wrists roll into the ball..elite hitters anyway

announcers ex announcer players and players ALL talk about getting theit arms extended...but hell what the hell do they know

baseballdad

10-03-2008, 10:16 AM

I would say tilt is the way you adjust the bat for any pitch so that would hold for a low ball too.

We use a broom drill to show how tilt parallels the shoulders. How do you use it to feel full extension?

Bucketdad

10-03-2008, 10:26 AM

She uses the broom in place of her bat and does dry swings.
The broom is held such that the heavy end represents the barrel.
The broom gives the feeling of being overly end loaded which in turn makes it harder to "cut the swing off" which a lot of fastpitch players do.
You'll need to try it for yourself. Swing the broom as if you were swinging a bat and try to wrap the bat around your shoulder. You can't do it.
Centrifugal motion will spin the broom away from your body which cause full extension.

Give it a try.

BD

beemax

10-03-2008, 11:18 AM

The Williams/Epstein concept of hinging the back knee (while swinging level) to hit the low ball has been disproven.

Ugh.

Chris, we've been over this before, but you still can't seem to let it go.

Where can you show that Williams said anything about "hinging the back knee while swinging level?"

I can post what Williams says about it in his book, but I know that you have it.

You are poorly paraphrasing what Williams said and trying to lump him with Epstein. IMO that is wrong. True, Williams endorsed Epstein, but he has also been dead for over six years. In that time I believe that Epstein has adapted more of his own teachings over Williams'. I believe he has separated himself from Williams for the worse over the years.

I may be wrong here, but I think Ted would not agree with all of what Epstein teaches today. He was not one to mince words, as I'm sure you know. This would include 'hinging the back knee and swinging level.'

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 11:43 AM

Where can you show that Williams said anything about "hinging the back knee while swinging level?"

I can post what Williams says about it in his book, but I know that you have it.

You are poorly paraphrasing what Williams said and trying to lump him with Epstein. IMO that is wrong. True, Williams endorsed Epstein, but he has also been dead for over six years. In that time I believe that Epstein has adapted more of his own teachings over Williams'. I believe he has separated himself from Williams for the worse over the years.

I may be wrong here, but I think Ted would not agree with all of what Epstein teaches today. He was not one to mince words, as I'm sure you know. This would include 'hinging the back knee and swinging level.'

There is a diagram in Williams' book that shows the concept of hinging the back knee to adjust to the height of the pitch.

I also know that Epstein talks about hinging the back knee.

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 11:57 AM

There is a diagram in Williams' book that shows the concept of hinging the back knee to adjust to the height of the pitch.

I also know that Epstein talks about hinging the back knee.

We've already beaten this do death in this thread...

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=76901

The relevant diagram is on page 66 or 67.

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41698&d=1210215942

beemax

10-03-2008, 12:04 PM

There is a diagram in Williams' book that shows the concept of hinging the back knee to adjust to the height of the pitch.

I also know that Epstein talks about hinging the back knee.

There is a picture that shows a hitter bending his knees to get to a low pitch. You are taking one picture, calling it a diagram, and defining it to fit your views. It shows Williams' concept of bending both knees in an attempt to keep the swing uniform and still be able to have an upward swing at the ball.

In your view it shows a 'back knee hinge' and 'swinging level,' which should not be confused with the point Williams was making. So far, from what I have seen you write, your interpretation of Williams' thoughts on hitting the low pitch are not what he was saying.

This is along the lines of your definition of why extension at the POC doesn't work (because it ruined your swing) in that you are using poor evidence to prove your point.

It's not a bad point that you are making in either case, but when you take Ted Williams' words out of context to make that point, it looks bad IMO.

Again, can you cite for me where Williams talks about 'hinging the back knee and swinging level to hit the low pitch?'

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 12:18 PM

There is a picture that shows a hitter bending his knees to get to a low pitch. You are taking one picture, calling it a diagram, and defining it to fit your views. It shows Williams' concept of bending both knees in an attempt to keep the swing uniform and still be able to have an upward swing at the ball.

Williams was wrong about this.

This isn't how major league hitters adjust from pitch to pitch.

I think what confused him is that the angle of the back knee WILL vary from hitter to hitter, but individual hitters tend to use the same angle for every swing.

Again, can you cite for me where Williams talks about 'hinging the back knee and swinging level to hit the low pitch?'

I believe that hinge is Epstein's explanation of what Williams was trying to say. It's as good a word as any to describe what Williams illustrates in the picture.

...or diagram or sketch or illustration.

beemax

10-03-2008, 12:36 PM

Williams was wrong about this.

I never said he was right.

This isn't how major league hitters adjust from pitch to pitch.

I think what confused him is that the angle of the back knee WILL vary from hitter to hitter, but individual hitters tend to use the same angle for every swing.

He never speaks specifically about the back knee! I think what is confusing you is that you continue to want to define his views as merely 'back knee hinge' when he talks about bending both knees. You continue to twist what he said to fit your definition of what is wrong, and it is not the first time I have seen you do this. It takes away from your accountability when you do IMO.

I believe that hinge is Epstein's explanation of what Williams was trying to say. It's as good a word as any to describe what Williams illustrates in the picture.

...or diagram or sketch or illustration.

And if Epstein uses 'back knee hinge' to describe it, he is wrong and he is misinterpreting what Williams said IMO.

There are 82 pages in Williams book, the best book on hitting there is. This is dealing with one paragraph that has been taken out of context. I still will advise any player, coach, or parent to read it over and over because you will always learn something new and useful from it.

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 12:42 PM

He never speaks specifically about the back knee! I think what is confusing you is that you continue to want to define his views as merely 'back knee hinge' when he talks about bending both knees.

Bending the front knee is demonstrably, and universally, wrong.

While Williams' book is great, he doesn't get everything right.

beemax

10-03-2008, 12:44 PM

While Williams' book is great, he doesn't get everything right.

And neither do you.

I'll take Williams book any day.

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 01:47 PM

http://baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41698&d=1210215942

My first reaction is that the above sketch Looks like garbage.

Can you back this up with video clips of some of the best hitters?

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 01:53 PM

Glauss - Video on the right is outside and waste high. Video in the center is outside and low. Some believe that the rear shoulder plays a critical role to setting the swing plane.

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LocationAdjustment_SettingSwingPath/glauss-tilt-3-ball.gif

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 01:54 PM

Escobar

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LocationAdjustment_SettingSwingPath/escobaradjustment.gif

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 01:54 PM

Hamilton

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LocationAdjustment_SettingSwingPath/hamiltonadjustment.gif

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 01:55 PM

Wright

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LocationAdjustment_SettingSwingPath/wrightadjustment.gif

beemax

10-03-2008, 02:08 PM

FFS,

Good clips.

What is your opinion on the previous conversation? You said your first reaction to the sketch was that it was garbage. What do you feel about the concept in general, especially after posting the videos you did?

Chris O'Leary

10-03-2008, 02:13 PM

Wright

http://www.groundup.hittingillustrated.com/hitting/LocationAdjustment_SettingSwingPath/wrightadjustment.gif

What I see is a (relatively) constant back knee angle and a different tilt angle.

FiveFrameSwing

10-03-2008, 03:06 PM

What I see is a (relatively) constant back knee angle and a different tilt angle.

I think folks would be wise to concentrate on what you are calling the 'tilt', as IMO the rear shoulder action is a main contributor to getting the bat barrel on plane with the ball.

rkbenn

10-03-2008, 04:42 PM

i'm leaning toward more shoulder tilt from the clip and comments, which is what I've been teaching, plus taking the barrell directly to the ball.

wogdoggy

10-03-2008, 05:55 PM

I think folks would be wise to concentrate on what you are calling the 'tilt', as IMO the rear shoulder action is a main contributor to getting the bat barrel on plane with the ball.

dont move your "hands" let the tilt set your swing plane,, remember the hands ONLY hold the bat,,let someone throw you some bp ,,how many did you hit sweet? report back with results..hold that bat and rotate,,video yourself..notice how you never ever get extended cause you are only worried about staying "connected"..

mudvnine

10-03-2008, 07:00 PM

I think folks would be wise to concentrate on what you are calling the 'tilt', as IMO the rear shoulder action is a main contributor to getting the bat barrel on plane with the ball.

Agreed, I have recently started to use the "rear shoulder to the ball" cue for some hitters that had a tendency to rollover on everything after I confused them with the "throwing the top hand" cue.

This has accomplished three things, in that they stay connected much better, their bat plan recognition is greatly improved, and extension after contact is much more fluid.

mudvnine

10-03-2008, 07:08 PM

dont move your "hands" let the tilt set your swing plane,, remember the hands ONLY hold the bat,,let someone throw you some bp ,,how many did you hit sweet? report back with results..hold that bat and rotate,,video yourself..notice how you never ever get extended cause you are only worried about staying "connected"..

Wog, once I get the father's permission to post his son here, I will show you video of the hitter's before, hand to the ball swings (from another instructor) and his after, stay connected swings that he picked up in two short lessons.

A vast difference and I would venture to say that not many folks here would endorse his "before" swings and all I really did was show him how to stay connected and swing with his body and not his hands.

azmatsfan

10-04-2008, 09:53 PM

teach it and watch your kid freeze..the winner is the person who uses their hands and their eyes better..kinda the same skills needed in ping pong

grab a bat tilt and dont move or adjust your hands..just hit the ball by setting your tilt and rotating,,remember its all tilt all the time,,,and good luck

My 10-year-old son used to use his hands to hit the low pitches. Most of them were weak grounders. I worked with my son on tilting to hit the low pitches. Now those same pitches that used to be weak grouders are line drives.

swingbuilder

10-04-2008, 10:15 PM

I think folks would be wise to concentrate on what you are calling the 'tilt', as IMO the rear shoulder action is a main contributor to getting the bat barrel on plane with the ball.

The hands will lead the shoulders direction and the tilt or the lack there of...not the other way around.

FiveFrameSwing

10-05-2008, 12:38 AM

The hands will lead the shoulders direction and the tilt or the lack there of...not the other way around.

Please, we’ve been through this. The hands do not have magical powers and neither do they move without assistance of other body segments. It is the other body segments that move the hands, not the other way around. The hands are the last segment of the Kinetic link, and they need to be positioned and moved in accordance to the Kinetic link. During the top ARM/hand sidearm throwing action the rear shoulder will be lowered appropriately. This need not be a complicated portion of the swing, and in fact my students get this concept with little effort on their part.

Mark H

10-05-2008, 08:30 PM

FFS,

Thanks for the clips. Nice work.

Chris O'Leary

10-07-2008, 10:09 AM

Here are multiple views of Manny's Home Run to Left Center Field on a pitch well down in the strike zone.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_CF_HR_ToLCF_LowPitch_60 FPS_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_CF_High_HR_ToLCF_LowPit ch_60FPS_001.gif

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_MannyRamirez_1B_HR_ToLCF_LowPitch_60 FPS_001.gif

I think these clips are perfect examples of the principle of tilt and properly-timed (e.g. last second) extension. Also, notice that, while he is quite extended at the Point Of Contact, Manny doesn't reach full extension until 2 or 3 frames after the Point Of Contact.

rkbenn

10-07-2008, 06:13 PM

Chadbradfordwannabe

10-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Thanks got to be the most hip and shoulder separation I've seen on any clip! wow!

Clearly, you haven't seen Francoeur's or Delgado's swings....LOL

Chadbradfordwannabe

10-07-2008, 09:07 PM

The hands will lead the shoulders direction and the tilt or the lack there of...not the other way around.

I disagree as well. I pay particular attention to posture adjustments (tilt) and 'back shoulder rotation/action in BP. I've found that tilt is an excellent indicator of lift.

Ursa Major

10-08-2008, 11:07 PM

RKBenn said: "Thanks got to be the most hip and shoulder separation I've seen on any clip! wow!"
Actually, RK, if you look closely you'll see that he never turns the back foot -- apparently in an effort to avoid coming off this low outside pitch. Don't let your younger hitters see that. (Or, if they do, tell them, "Hey, when you become as strong as Manny, you can shortcut your hip turn.")

By the way, you talk about the back shoulder as follows: "i'm leaning toward more shoulder tilt from the clip and comments, which is what I've been teaching, plus taking the barrell directly to the ball."

I'm not sure what you mean by "shoulder tilt" here. The shoulder can't tilt up and down independent of the torso. While I agree with the cue of "taking the back shoulder to the ball" once the swing commences, I worry about any cue that talks about having the shoulder tilt, because it may lead a hitter who initially reads the pitch to be a low one to "open up" his upper body to bring his shoulder tilted over, or he may just tilt that shoulder back down toward the catcher's feet. It's probably safer to say that the front shoulder tilts, and better yet to say that the whole torso tilts (depending on what seems to resonate best with the hitter).

dominik

10-09-2008, 09:18 AM

Major league hitters tend to do it primarily via tilt (and some extension).

The Williams/Epstein concept of hinging the back knee (while swinging level) to hit the low ball has been disproven.

Hey guys, I'm new to this board. I'm a german baseball player and since baseball is very small in germany and good coaching is rare I always appreciate your great knowledge. Great site.

I especially like your site Chris O'Leary, very good work, it's a great help.

To topic: Epstein and williams didn't teach level swing, neither did they teach bending the knee's. Williams said "they ideal swing is not down and is not level and Epstein also said you swing upwards. Level is meant level to the pitch(which is angling down) which results in an upward swing.

Epstein also uses the words tilt and connection.
Here's the proof:
http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/

(look articles-swing adjustments and the pitch or also the article barry bonds analysis)

This was not meant to attack you, but rather supports your view, so no offense intended.

rgds dominik

Mark H

10-09-2008, 10:15 AM

You have certainly been doing your homework. I suggest you continue your reading on Englishbey's site and get hold of Jim Dixon's book if you can.

dominik

10-09-2008, 11:36 AM

Thanks, I will look if I get this stuff. I always hard in germany to get some of this stuff since there are very little baseball player in germany(I think less than 50.000).

Do you know if englishberry has free stuff?(articles like epstein)