Manny

[sl0annuggets]

Cant teach people how to hit that pitch with that swing. Thought the pitch was lower than it actually was but hey that was impressive

[Drill]

Cant teach people how to hit that pitch with that swing. Thought the pitch was lower than it actually was but hey that was impressive




strength and manny being manny



drill

[Erik]

Manny has the ability to hit golf balls off a golf tee with his bat . This is a drill that comes in handy.:rofl::rofl::rofl:




EL,

[wogdoggy]

Cant teach people how to hit that pitch with that swing. Thought the pitch was lower than it actually was but hey that was impressive

tuff to stay "connected' on that pitch..lol..unless he was horizontal with his kness..GREAT use of the hands...

[Chris O'Leary]

tuff to stay "connected' on that pitch..lol..unless he was horizontal with his kness..GREAT use of the hands...

In general, it's not hard to stay connected on a pitch down in the zone if you understand the concept of Tilt.

I have the swing on DVR and will post some video later tonight.

[wogdoggy]

In general, it's not hard to stay connected on a pitch down in the zone if you understand the concept of Tilt.

I have the swing on DVR and will post some video later tonight.

ok chris...and nobodys staying CONNECTED thru that pitch,,thats why PROS never even mention that phrase,,but they sure all talk about the hands...and this is a perfect example why.

tilt your butt off and good luck on anything except dead center..

the CONCEPT of great "hands" does come to mind though

[GordonGecko]

I don't recall all the details, but Vladimir Guererro has said that growing up he would spend hours every day in front of a brick wall with a bat and ball trying to hit the ball back and forth without interruption. With his natural talent, it's no wonder he can hit a ball pitched anywhere near him.

Manny probably does some sort of repetitive drills too, those two guys have the same sort of unrelenting work ethic

[Chris O'Leary]

ok chris...and nobodys staying CONNECTED thru that pitch,,thats why PROS never even mention that phrase,,but they sure all talk about the hands...and this is a perfect example why.

Let's see some video.

You're relying on your eyes which simply aren't up to the task.

[wogdoggy]

Let's see some video.

You're relying on your eyes which simply aren't up to the task.

tee up a ball 6 inches off the ground on the outside corner and STAY connected thru it,,let me know how much tilt you can get before you fall on your face...HANDS HANDS HANDS hit that pitch..thats why NOBODY in the pros even mentions connection,,,I think the word connection is poison personally..:shhh:

[Chris O'Leary]

Let's see some video.

You're relying on your eyes which simply aren't up to the task.

OK, so I just captured the video on MLB.com.

He combines significant tilt (he tilts forward 45 degrees over the plate) with some (but I think not complete) well-timed extension. Well-timed meaning at the last second so as to reduce the negative impact on angular momentum.

Nobody who has a deep understanding of a high level swing will deny that some hitters extend some to hit some pitches. However, good hitters don't extend at the POC on every one of their good swings.

IOW, extension at the POC is an adjustment mechanism, not the core of every good swing.

[wogdoggy]

OK, so I just captured the video on MLB.com.

He combines significant tilt (he tilts forward 45 degrees over the plate) with some (but I think not complete) well-timed extension. Well-timed meaning at the last second so as to reduce the negative impact on angular momentum.

Nobody who has a deep understanding of a high level swing will deny that some hitters don't extend some to hit some pitches. However, good hitters don't extend at the POC on every one of their good swings.

Nobody who has a deep understanding of a high level swing will deny that some hitters don't extend some to hit some pitches. However, good hitters don't extend at the POC on every one of their good swings.
__________________
they extend and disconnect to hit all pitches,,except right down broadway..thats what makes em pros. and the excellent hands and speed makes them extraordinary pros..

[Chris O'Leary]

Nobody who has a deep understanding of a high level swing will deny that some hitters don't extend some to hit some pitches. However, good hitters don't extend at the POC on every one of their good swings.

Oops, got my negatives wrong.

I meant...

Nobody who has a deep understanding of a high level swing will deny that some hitters extend some to hit some pitches. However, good hitters don't extend at the POC on every one of their good swings.

[mudvnine]

ok chris...and nobodys staying CONNECTED thru that pitch,,thats why PROS never even mention that phrase,,but they sure all talk about the hands...and this is a perfect example why.

tilt your butt off and good luck on anything except dead center..

the CONCEPT of great "hands" does come to mind though




Come on wog, are you really saying that this is how you are teaching kids to hit on a fluke "throw your hands at the ball swing", that 99 out of 100 is put a routine pop-up?

So to continue using this swing as a good "example" of hitting mechanics, we should no longer be teaching weight transfer and hip rotation also?

Just so I understand where you're coming from; what I'm reading in your posts is that your style of instruction is "throwing the hands at the ball" ahead of/or instead of initiating the swing with the hips . . . I am reading this correctly? I only ask to put things in perspective when responding.

[wogdoggy]

all im saying is you can tilt your butt off and stay connected all u want but you aint gonna hit anything except dead red,,thats my point..you take a kids hands away and keep telling him to stay connected and turn and you'll be real sorry..YEAH i'd rather teach hands than teach alligator arms..you betcha

[wogdoggy]

Come on wog, are you really saying that this is how you are teaching kids to hit on a fluke "throw your hands at the ball swing", that 99 out of 100 is put a routine pop-up?

So to continue using this swing as a good "example" of hitting mechanics, we should no longer be teaching weight transfer and hip rotation also?

Just so I understand where you're coming from; what I'm reading in your posts is that your style of instruction is "throwing the hands at the ball" ahead of/or instead of initiating the swing with the hips . . . I am reading this correctly? I only ask to put things in perspective when responding.

not saying to throw hands come on..but teaching a kid to STAY CONNECTED and hold the bat and you'll never even see him attempt to hit anything other than dead red,,,,CAUSE his body KNOWS it cant..thats the downside of hold the bat stay connected and turn...Id rather teach a kid to gets his arms extended than stay connected..

[scorekeeper]

Come on wog, are you really saying that this is how you are teaching kids to hit on a fluke "throw your hands at the ball swing", that 99 out of 100 is put a routine pop-up?

So to continue using this swing as a good "example" of hitting mechanics, we should no longer be teaching weight transfer and hip rotation also?

Just so I understand where you're coming from; what I'm reading in your posts is that your style of instruction is "throwing the hands at the ball" ahead of/or instead of initiating the swing with the hips . . . I am reading this correctly? I only ask to put things in perspective when responding.

I seriously doubt that anyone would teach that as the PREFERRED technique, but at the same time, anyone who denies that some percentage of hit balls, both strong and weak, are hit using something much different than PERFECT technique, is a very foolish person. The only real question is, what is the percentage of balls hit that come from non-perfect swings.

[Chris O'Leary]

not saying to throw hands come on..but teaching a kid to STAY CONNECTED and hold the bat and you'll never even see him attempt to hit anything other than dead red

Garbage.

I have multiple people see their power numbers and average go up significantly after they focus on staying connected and learn how to adjust via tilting.

More often than not, their previous instructors were big extension guys and they came to me due to power problems.

A HS student of mine also just got a letter from a big D-1 school because they really like his hitting. Guess what I taught him. Stay connected.

[Chris O'Leary]

I seriously doubt that anyone would teach that as the PREFERRED technique, but at the same time, anyone who denies that some percentage of hit balls, both strong and weak, are hit using something much different than PERFECT technique, is a very foolish person. The only real question is, what is the percentage of balls hit that come from non-perfect swings.

As I tell my kids, never mistake luck for skill.

Also, never mistake something a major leaguer with top 1% reflexes can do for something a regular kid can do.

I teach my kids to wait for the pitch they can put their best swing on.

[wogdoggy]

As I tell my kids, never mistake luck for skill.

Also, never mistake something a major leaguer with top 1% reflexes can do for something a regular kid can do.

I teach my kids to wait for the pitch they can put their best swing on.

I love that last statement chris...keep waiting for dead red cause thats all they'll be able to handle after you ingrain "connection" into their brains...

btw that aint luck baby thats elite HAND eye coordination ,,,and you should know that

[wogdoggy]

Garbage.

I have multiple people see their power numbers and average go up significantly after they focus on staying connected and learn how to adjust via tilting.

More often than not, their previous instructors were big extension guys and they came to me due to power problems.

A HS student of mine also just got a letter from a big D-1 school because they really like his hitting. Guess what I taught him. Stay connected.



funny i found just the exact opposite,,tell a kid the hands hold the bat tilt and stay connected is poison..they'll freeze up on anything except dead red

the hands adjust,,the tilt cant do that in a precise enough manner..not gonna argue anymore.. been there..

[Chris O'Leary]

I love that last statement chris...keep waiting for dead red cause thats all they'll be able to handle after you ingrain "connection" into their brains...

Why, exactly?

Also, the inconsistency in your statement is that Ted Williams DID look for dead red because he knew that was the pitch he could hit the best. He didn't try to extend and hit everything.


btw that aint luck baby thats elite HAND eye coordination ,,,and you should know that

Yes, but an ordinary kid can't pull that swing off.

They need to be taught to wait for their pitch. Generally, that means one they can stay connected on.

Also, Leo Mazzone intuitively knows that an extended swing is a weaker swing (on average), which is why he teaches his pitchers to live low and away.

[Chris O'Leary]

funny i found just the exact opposite,,tell a kid the hands hold the bat tilt and stay connected is poison..they'll freeze up on anything except dead red

Then you're not teaching it right.

I will teach my guys to extend if they have to (in order to protect the plate or if they get fooled), but only if they have to.


the tilt cant do that in a precise enough manner

You're making the classic mistake of going with your brain and not your eyes.

Do you think Manny is tilting just for the fun of it?

[mudvnine]

I seriously doubt that anyone would teach that as the PREFERRED technique, but at the same time, anyone who denies that some percentage of hit balls, both strong and weak, are hit using something much different than PERFECT technique, is a very foolish person. The only real question is, what is the percentage of balls hit that come from non-perfect swings.

But, you are so wrong . . . last week my son's college coach actually "instructed" my son on how he wanted him to hit; by having my son get to a loaded position, then grabbed the barrel of his bat and pushed/threw it so the knob ended up at his front hip.

He then instructed him to "trust your hands" and let the top hand carry the bat to the ball. So, you can "seriously doubt" all you want, but there are "instructors" out there who employ "hands to the ball" initiation.

And yes, adjustments will continually be made at the plate, but to teach a "long", disconnected approach as the foundation of the swing is IMO, doing a disservice to hitters of all ages.

[Chris O'Leary]

But, you are so wrong . . . last week my son's college coach actually "instructed" my son on how he wanted him to hit; by having my son get to a loaded position, then grabbed the barrel of his bat and pushed/threw it so the knob ended up at his front hip.

He then instructed him to "trust your hands" and let the top hand carry the bat to the ball. So, you can "seriously doubt" all you want, but there are "instructors" out there who employ "hands to the ball" initiation.

In another thread...

- http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83890

...I document that a former MLer is teaching this exact approach.

[wogdoggy]

Why, exactly?

Also, the inconsistency in your statement is that Ted Williams DID look for dead red because he knew that was the pitch he could hit the best. He didn't try to extend and hit everything.




Yes, but an ordinary kid can't pull that swing off.

They need to be taught to wait for their pitch. Generally, that means one they can stay connected on.

Also, Leo Mazzone intuitively knows that an extended swing is a weaker swing (on average), which is why he teaches his pitchers to live low and away.



gee chris do you think your the only one that wants to hit a good strike? in the real world thats great but you arent always getting that..this isnt about plate appearance strategies.its about the term staying connected tilt and hit and what it does to a kids ability to hit sweet

[azmatsfan]

all im saying is you can tilt your butt off and stay connected all u want but you aint gonna hit anything except dead red,,

That's not true. A batter should be able to stay connected and hit anything in the strike zone other than pitches low and away. Then there will naturally be some disconnection at contact.

[wogdoggy]

That's not true. A batter should be able to stay connected and hit anything in the strike zone other than pitches low and away. Then there will naturally be some disconnection at contact.



maybe off a tee but live is another story..hands dont do anything?


try not moving them just tilt and turn..keep your hands in the same spot..keep em connected..now go hit sweet,,,and lotsa luck..the hands are key to hitting sweet,,ask manny

[halfguard]

i dont think there is anything technical about that swing last night. there is no way to explain it. its just talent, plain and simple. he can do what most cant........

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's Pujols hitting a pitch up and away while still staying quite connected (notice the 90 degree bend in the back elbow)...

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/oct04/nl1013.jpg

He stays as connected as possible by letting his back elbow come out of the slot (while still keeping it bent).

[jima]

Here's Pujols hitting a pitch up and away while still staying quite connected (notice the 90 degree bend in the back elbow)...

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/brew/img/oct04/nl1013.jpg

He stays as connected as possible by letting his back elbow come out of the slot (while still keeping it bent).

Tough to tell from that angle, but I wouldn't be praising that particular swing...looks like he opened up too soon and it something weak off the end of the bat. I guess you can be connected and open up too soon, right Chris?

[Chris O'Leary]

Tough to tell from that angle, but I wouldn't be praising that particular swing...looks like he opened up too soon and it something weak off the end of the bat. I guess you can be connected and open up too soon, right Chris?

This is a home run swing.

Pujols will tend to hit an outside pitch the other way, usually off the outer part of the bat.

[jima]

This is a home run swing.

Pujols will tend to hit an outside pitch the other way, usually off the outer part of the bat.

If contact is where it appears to be he must have rolled and shaved his wood bat:). You didn't answer my question re: opening too soon and staying connected.

[Chris O'Leary]

You didn't answer my question re: opening too soon and staying connected.

I don't see any evidence that he did or didn't open up too soon.

What I see is pretty typical for him.

[jima]

I don't see any evidence that he did or didn't open up too soon.

What I see is pretty typical for him.

I agree re: this swing, if in fact he hit a dinger.

[azmatsfan]

maybe off a tee but live is another story..hands dont do anything?


try not moving them just tilt and turn..keep your hands in the same spot..keep em connected..now go hit sweet,,,and lotsa luck..the hands are key to hitting sweet,,ask manny

I never said the hands don't do anything. Look at any Major Leaguer's swing. I bet on 80-90% of the basehits the batter is connected at contact. The other 10 - 20% are pitches with 2 strikes on the corner or when a hitter is fooled and he has to adjust mid-swing.

[jima]

Connection and hands do not have to be mutually exclusive...it really depends on the player. With re: to the Manny clip, you have to understand the concept of Reach to fully appreciate what Manny is doing here.

[rkbenn]

ok chris...and nobodys staying CONNECTED thru that pitch,,thats why PROS never even mention that phrase,,but they sure all talk about the hands...and this is a perfect example why.

tilt your butt off and good luck on anything except dead center..

the CONCEPT of great "hands" does come to mind though

He was not connected, not close. How many can pull that swing off?

[fungo22]

all im saying is you can tilt your butt off and stay connected all u want but you aint gonna hit anything except dead red,,thats my point..you take a kids hands away and keep telling him to stay connected and turn and you'll be real sorry..YEAH i'd rather teach hands than teach alligator arms..you betcha

You don't know what you're talking about.

[fungo22]

. . .keep waiting for dead red cause thats all they'll be able to handle after you ingrain "connection" into their brains...


What are you talking about? "Ingrain connection into their brains"? Connection is a biomechanical fact. Are you saying Manny's swing is not connected? And what kind of teaching technique 'ingrains connecton into kids' brains"? Is that how YOU taught connection, by "ingraining it into their brains"? And how would you know anything about kids who have been trained to stay connected?

And instead of making meaningless assertions about using the hands, why don't you jump into the hand function thread and share your expertise on how MLB hitters use their hands? Of course they use their hands. But your statements are just meaningliss drivel.

[nick e]

man-ram is the T.O of baseball.

[Deemax]

Manny did an unreal job on a very tough pitch.

He dropped the head on a low breaker, and the result was a 400ft bomb. Make no mistake about it... alot can be learned from this less then pretty swing.

Now, back to the great PCR rules/sucks debate.

[wogdoggy]

You don't know what you're talking about.

fungo your a great guy but ez there "i have video".. to prove my point :shhh: just kidding and we can leave it at that.ur call

[Chadbradfordwannabe]

First thing I thought when I saw him hit that ball was "great posture adjustment," i.e, "tilt."

[wogdoggy]

First thing I thought when I saw him hit that ball was "great posture adjustment," i.e, "tilt."

really i thought extraordinary hand eye coordination and elite use of the hands...funny how 2 people see differnet things

[Chris O'Leary]

really i thought extraordinary hand eye coordination and elite use of the hands...funny how 2 people see differnet things

If the torso and shoulders didn't tilt, then the hands wouldn't be in the right place.

[wogdoggy]

If the torso and shoulders didn't tilt, then the hands wouldn't be in the right place.

same for a ping pong player too huh? are they tilting and connecting tooo or would that be just to darn tough to do..or is it hand eye?

take your hands to a low outside pitch..what does your torso do,,it FOLLOWS your hands?

[Chris O'Leary]

take your hands to a low outside pitch..what does your torso do,,it FOLLOWS your hands?

Ping pong players don't have to hit the ball off the floor, so that's not a great analogy.

On multiple occasions I have said that I don't a have a problem thinking of the hands as kind of a gunsight for the rest of the body.

[wogdoggy]

Ping pong players don't have to hit the ball off the floor, so that's not a great analogy.

On multiple occasions I have said that I don't a have a problem thinking of the hands as kind of a gunsight for the rest of the body.




gunsight

and without the gunsight your as good as dead

[beemax]

As I tell my kids, never mistake luck for skill.

Also, never mistake something a major leaguer with top 1% reflexes can do for something a regular kid can do.


Chris, what do you mean by this? Is this merely referring to what Manny did in this swing or is this referring to things that Major Leaguers can do and normal kids can't, or shouldn't try to?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, what do you mean by this? Is this merely referring to what Manny did in this swing or is this referring to things that Major Leaguers can do and normal kids can't, or shouldn't try to?

Major leaguers have above-average reflexes and skills and on average can do things that ordinary people can't.

However, even they just plain get lucky every once on a while.

Of course, Vlad Guerrero seems to get lucky a lot, so the line between luck and skill is a bit fuzzy.

[beemax]

Major leaguers have above-average reflexes and skills and on average can do things that ordinary people can't.

However, even they just plain get lucky every once on a while.

Of course, Vlad Guerrero seems to get lucky a lot, so the line between luck and skill is a bit fuzzy.

So are there aspects of the MLB swing that you do not teach because you do not think your students have the skill level to be successful if they try it?

[Chris O'Leary]

So are there aspects of the MLB swing that you do not teach because you do not think your students have the skill level to be successful if they try it?

Certain MLB swings.

Vlad will chase anything and often the result will be good.

Most people, including most MLers, can't pull that off.

[beemax]

Certain MLB swings.

Vlad will chase anything and often the result will be good.

Most people, including most MLers, can't pull that off.

Sure, Vlad chases pitches and hits them with scary regularity, but that's not really what I am getting at.

I guess I should ask the questions in a different context...

Do you think that because a student of yours is not the next Vlad or Pujols that they shouldn't strive to use their mechanics?

Because they aren't as athletic, should these students 'dumb down' (for lack of a better term) what they are working on and not necessarily seek to use the mechanics of high-level MLB swing?

[Chris O'Leary]

Sure, Vlad chases pitches and hits them with scary regularity, but that's not really what I am getting at.

I guess I should ask the questions in a different context...

Do you think that because a student of yours is not the next Vlad or Pujols that they shouldn't strive to use their mechanics?

Because they aren't as athletic, should these students 'dumb down' (for lack of a better term) what they are working on and not necessarily seek to use the mechanics of high-level MLB swing?

If a kid is having problems, I will play the percentages and dumb down his swing.

If he's funky but hitting well, I won't mess with him because he might be that 1% guy.

[Postblankier]

Certain MLB swings.

Vlad will chase anything and often the result will be good.

Most people, including most MLers, can't pull that off.
What exactly does chasing anything have to do with emulating a swing?

[Chris O'Leary]

What exactly does chasing anything have to do with emulating a swing?

A hitter's approach is part of their swing.

Swing = Mechanics + Approach

Lots of guys have had solid mechanics but have struggled or even failed due to lousy approaches (e.g. not waiting for their pitch).

[beemax]

If a kid is having problems, I will play the percentages and dumb down his swing.

If he's funky but hitting well, I won't mess with him because he might be that 1% guy.

So if a kid is struggling, you will advise them to use mechanics that are not high level?

[Chris O'Leary]

So if a kid is struggling, you will advise them to use mechanics that are not high level?

I will reduce the stride, leg lift, and weight shift because they can create too much head and other movement in some people. Not everyone can shift their weight without sliding under the ball.

You're basically sacrificing some power for greater average.

[fungo22]

fungo your a great guy but ez there "i have video".. to prove my point :shhh: just kidding and we can leave it at that.ur call

I'm not sure what any of this means, but if you have video, serve up your best shot.

You seem to be saying that connection is not a quality of MLB swings, and you're comparing swinging a bat to swinging a ping pong paddle. So that's two strikes against your knowing what you're talking about. You talk about the torso following the hands as if the hands are moving independently from and/or dictating the movement of the torso (Strike 3) And you're actually saying things like "elite use of the hands" as if that really has some meaning, and as if you really know what you're talking about. Strike 4.


I know you don't have video to support any of this, but if you think you've got something there, Doggy, bring it on and we'll talk about it.

[wogdoggy]

I'm not sure what any of this means, but if you have video, serve up your best shot.

You seem to be saying that connection is not a quality of MLB swings, and you're comparing swinging a bat to swinging a ping pong paddle. So that's two strikes against your knowing what you're talking about. You talk about the torso following the hands as if the hands are moving independently from and/or dictating the movement of the torso (Strike 3) And you're actually saying things like "elite use of the hands" as if that really has some meaning, and as if you really know what you're talking about. Strike 4.


I know you don't have video to support any of this, but if you think you've got something there, Doggy, bring it on and we'll talk about it.



its called hand eye coordination for a reason guys..not eye tilt coordination,,and the better players obviously have supereb torso eye coordination..

you really dont want me to bring it on,,do you? you arent very photogenic..especially turning like heck on that inside pitch...

sports have alot of things in common and hand eye coordination is one of them..no engineering degree needed

i guess if we can have ELITE rotational capabilities as you guys sight ken G jr.. we can have an elite use of the hands as well..

save it for the newbies..

[fungo22]

its called hand eye coordination for a reason guys..not eye tilt coordination,,and the better players obviously have supereb torso eye coordination..

That's right guys. How to get a 2-lb bat into the zone and on plane accelerating to bat speeds of 90 MPH in 1/7 seconds can best be summarized by "hand-eye coordination." That is what MLB hitters are doing that lower level hitters are not doing. Elite use of the hands, guys. And make a special note of this: It is not "eye-tilt coordination." which of course is what all of those stupid PCR guys are claiming.

you really dont want me to bring it on,,do you? you arent very photogenic..especially turning like heck on that inside pitch...

So you're threatening to post one of my swings? To achieve what?

Oh no. Everybody, I take it all back. Even the stuff I wrote in this post. Wogdoggy really does know what he's talking about after all. It's very meaningful. Very profound. I made a special trip to his house in Chicago once and he really showed me a thing or two. Everybody please listen to Wogdoggy. He's the top doggy when it comes to jobs requiring elite use of the hands.

Problem with your threat, Doggy, is I have less ego than Teacherman. And if he's willing to post that fat catastophe he calls a swing, I'll survive anything you've got of mine. Is it something you filmed when you were giving me lessons at your house? Be sure and post the worst one.

sports have alot of things in common and hand eye coordination is one of them..no engineering degree needed

That's the ticket then. Away with core strength conditioning; get out your ping pong paddles. It's all hand-eye coordination. Forrest Gump, you've got yet another career as an MLB hitter. Swing, Forrest, swing!

i guess if we can have ELITE rotational capabilities as you guys sight ken G jr.. we can have an elite use of the hands as well..

Sure, and we can have elite use of our wogdoggies. But neither elite use of his wogdoggy nor elite use of his hands can explain how Manny was able to golf that pitch out of the park.

save it for the newbies

It would be wasted on the newbies, rook. Besides, newbies know better than to post the the meaningless hand talk you insist on posting. As I said earlier, if you want to talk about the hands, why not jump into the thread reserved for hand talk and show me where I went wrong there (especially in this post: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1311497&postcount=138).

[Rennie Stennett]

Away with core strength conditioning; get out your ping pong paddles.

Joe Morgan and the Big Red Machine ?

[callyjr]

But, you are so wrong . . . last week my son's college coach actually "instructed" my son on how he wanted him to hit; by having my son get to a loaded position, then grabbed the barrel of his bat and pushed/threw it so the knob ended up at his front hip.

He then instructed him to "trust your hands" and let the top hand carry the bat to the ball. So, you can "seriously doubt" all you want, but there are "instructors" out there who employ "hands to the ball" initiation.

And yes, adjustments will continually be made at the plate, but to teach a "long", disconnected approach as the foundation of the swing is IMO, doing a disservice to hitters of all ages.


Just cause there teaching it doesn't make it right.

[TDS]

you really dont want me to bring it on,,do you? you arent very photogenic..especially turning like heck on that inside pitch...

sports have alot of things in common and hand eye coordination is one of them..no engineering degree needed

i guess if we can have ELITE rotational capabilities as you guys sight ken G jr.. we can have an elite use of the hands as well..

save it for the newbies..--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wogdoggy, what kind of hitter were You in high school and college?

If you were slapper arm swinger at a young age You would not be talking hands to the ball. When I was a high school player I was very efficient at using my hands and arms to hit singles. The only way I was able to change this habit and drive the ball was to tie a rope from my waist to the bat handle.

Don't You think this would have limited the use of my hands and arms?

I think unless You have been there adjusted and then done that You don't know what it takes to change the habit.

[fungo22]

your pathetic fungo,and your swing looks like a spinning top..I wont even embarrass you.. ..if anybody looks and moves like forrest its you pal...

I thought this was already settled. It won't embarrass me, even if it's bad. Go ahead and post it. Let's see the spinning top. Spin, Forrest, spin.

But until then, please spare us your commentary. It's pretty meaningless until we see the video.

your hold the "bat and turn" robs kids use of "extension" and the use of their arms let alone their athletic ability,,

You and your kids must be doing it wrong. Mine don't have any trouble with stifled extension or repressed athleticism. Perhaps you were teaching it wrong.

Although your oldest was moving pretty good when I saw him.

BUT hey you and ole stever know it all ,,self proclaimed gurus

I only proclaimed myself a guru because I was drunk and didn't know you had the camera on. Did you save that video too? You might as well post it also.

And just for the record, Steve doesn't know it all.

just hold the bat and turn and dont forget to get the 75 dollars for the cd FIRST,,or is it 150 now? you actually STILL teach that?

I don't know of anyone who ever did teach just that. Is that the way you taught your kids? There's a lot more to it than just holding on to the bat and turning. As I said, you must have been teaching it wrong.

[Jake Patterson]

So if a kid is struggling, you will advise them to use mechanics that are not high level? Not if he's incapable of a high level swing. Why frustrate the process?

[jima]

Wo, I've always considered myself (when I played) a "feel" player who relied on his hands. That being said, I was never succesful when the hands were used without first establishing and athletic base and without using my hips and core in synch with my hands. At least this is how it "felt" to me. Other players didn't need to feel their hands at all...they would simply see it (the ball) and turn...their brain must have transmitted info differently than mine. These discussions revolving around whether the hands or posture; or turning is most important is starting to get kind of silly to me...they all are important and interelated in any athletic movement and cannot sustain by themselves...what players "feel" they are doing of course is a differnent story. jima

[beemax]

Not if he's incapable of a high level swing. Why frustrate the process?

How do you decide if a kid is incapable of a high level swing?

[dannyboy]

We imitate our masters only because we are not yet masters ourselves, and only because in doing so we learn the truth about what cannot be imitated.
- Kenneth Beittel

[Jake Patterson]

How do you decide if a kid is incapable of a high level swing?How do you decide if a student is ready for Algebra I? You do so by evaluating him on the building blocks that lead to it. I don't look at teaching hitting, pitching or shooting a basketball any different.

[beemax]

Good points made here Jake, but not for the reasons you think. Here's my point of view on this:

How do you decide if a student is ready for Algebra I?

There is a difference between being a kid being ready and deciding whether a kid is incapable of having high level mechanics. I'm not one to say a kid is incapable of grasping Algebra or high level mechanics. Sometimes it just takes more time.

Sure, some kids are not as athletic and do not pick up things as quickly, but I am not a believer that you teach kids mechanics that aren't high level because they aren't athletic. That doesn't make sense to me.

IMO teaching a kid who is not very athletic inferior mechanics is a combination that will result in regression. Think about it. My view is that you show them high level mechanics and be flexible with how you teach and apply them.

[ShawmLee]

Beemax,

I'm pretty sure i understand where you are going, but who is to say what is high level? If you ask SteveE you get one answer, ask Yeager, get another. Ask teacherman and you get a confusing series of posts intended to irritate people. Ask TomG and you'll be reading until tomorrow.

When learning a new task, it's often best to break it down into simpler, easier to execute pieces. Does that mean the swing isn't HIGH level because of no stride? Ask Jim Edmonds?

Just becasue it might be ideal to teach it one way, i.e. how you think it should be done as the finished product, does not mean that is the most efficient way to teach it.

[Jake Patterson]

Sure, some kids are not as athletic and do not pick up things as quickly, but I am not a believer that you teach kids mechanics that aren't high level because they aren't athletic. That doesn't make sense to me.
Even a gifted child needs to taught in levels that build upon themselves. Anything we teach, even to gifted students, needs to be done in a logical progression. Musice, art, algebra, ... even baseball are all in the same boat from a learning/teaching perspective, one leson builds upon the last -IMHO. The determination of their capabilities is established through evaluation. The problem is many coaches are incapable of this and force feed lessons the student are not ready for (even though they display some capability).

[beemax]

Beemax,

I'm pretty sure i understand where you are going, but who is to say what is high level? If you ask SteveE you get one answer, ask Yeager, get another. Ask teacherman and you get a confusing series of posts intended to irritate people. Ask TomG and you'll be reading until tomorrow.

This isn't the big issue here. Sure, each guy has a different view of what is high level, but that's not the point for the purposes of this debate. If you divert from what you think is high level because a kid is not that athletic that is a mistake IMO.

When learning a new task, it's often best to break it down into simpler, easier to execute pieces.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean you have to deviate from anything high-level.

Does that mean the swing isn't HIGH level because of no stride? Ask Jim Edmonds?

I never said a no-stride isn't high-level. Why not mention Jeff Bagwell, who stepped a little backwards?

Just becasue it might be ideal to teach it one way, i.e. how you think it should be done as the finished product, does not mean that is the most efficient way to teach it.

There is a big difference between what should be taught and how it is taught.

How it is taught varies upon how you can get through to the hitter. I am not one to take the same approach to every hitter because each kid interprets things differently. You have to be flexible when it comes to how you teach something because of that fact.

However, that doesn't change what should be taught, which has been my point all along.

[beemax]

Even a gifted child needs to taught in levels that build upon themselves. Anything we teach, even to gifted students, needs to be done in a logical progression. Musice, art, algebra, ... even baseball are all in the same boat from a learning/teaching perspective, one leson builds upon the last -IMHO. The determination of their capabilities is established through evaluation. The problem is many coaches are incapable of this and force feed lessons the student are not ready for (even though they display some capability).

I agree here, just as long as the high-level mechanics are not sacrificed.

You have to be flexible, understand who you are working with, and find a way to convey what they need to do or work on in a way that works for them.

Many coaches, even at the highest levels, do not have that flexibility, which is a shame.