Rolling bats to change Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR

[Drill]

ran into a web site that shaves and rolls bats. Got to reading a little bit about how rolling a bat breaks in a bat and takes the dead spots out of a bat. What they were talking about break in is you will not have to hit your composite or aluminum bat 500 times to break it in.

http://worldshottestbats.com/

This got me to thinking that if the bat companies are staying within the legal standard of the Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR after you hit the ball 500 times to break the bat in. This sounds to me that the hitter has altered or changed the Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR rating. Now I am woundering if the companies should roll there bats to keep the bats at the same Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR, after hitting them 500 times.

It sound illegal to roll bats because you are altering the bat, BUT you also alter the bat composition of material just by hitting the bat.

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/gove...WhitePaper.pdf

Now after just buying a new bat for my son I am going to put a piece of tape around it to make sure he rotates the bat to make sure he rolls the bat correctly by hitting ball over the winter, in the batting cage.


opinions?

drill

[Maxx]

It sounds illegal to roll bats because you are altering the bat, BUT you also alter the bat composition of material just by hitting the bat.




It is illegal to roll bats! Anything that alters the bat to change its performance is illegal.


Now I am wondering if the companies should roll there bats to keep the bats at the same Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR, after hitting them 500 times.






Some bats coming out now are being manufactured that way. They are promoting them as bats that are "hot" off the line, so that there is no break-in period for the consumer.

[TG Coach]

And people think LL'ers pitching from 46 feet is the issue The issue is hot, big barrel bats. LL does not allow them.

[callyjr]

I am told you can tell by looking at the bat if its been rolled or shaved. I played in a softball tourney a couple months back and thats all these guys talked about. I used a shaved bat once and it did have a lot more pop to it, too much for me as I am not a power hitter, I ended up flying out to RC where with the normal bats I was getting singles and doubles.

Cheaters never win in the end.

[callyjr]

And people think LL'ers pitching from 46 feet is the issue The issue is hot, big barrel bats. LL does not allow them.


um, not too many normal LL kids hitting 70 plus from 46 feet. Even your top teams struggled with it. Doesn't matter how hot the bat is if the ball looks like a beeby. 46 feet and 13yr olds don't mix, add in hot bats and your really playing with fire.

[Drill]

It is illegal to roll bats! Anything that alters the bat to change its performance is illegal.

So every time you hit the bat with a baseball it is altered/broken in a little more.



Some bats coming out now are being manufactured that way. They are promoting them as bats that are "hot" off the line, so that there is no break-in period for the consumer.


Maybe they should all do this because at least Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR will stay where it is suppose to be.

All I am trying to say is if all bats were rolled that it would make a more consistent Ball Exit Speed Ratio/BESR for every bat. Where as right now the exit speed is boosted past the legal limit after the bat is so called broken in.

thanks,

drill

[Maxx]

So every time you hit the bat with a baseball it is altered/broken in a little more.







I should have said purposely altered the bat to improve performance. Another example, you cannot use a bat warmer becuase it would enhance performance.

[Drill]

I should have said purposely altered the bat to improve performance. Another example, you cannot use a bat warmer becuase it would enhance performance.

wow, i did not know this. It would seem to me (using a bat warmer) trying to comply with the bat manufacture warranty, rules are rules

thanks,

drill

[hitnpeas]

It is illegal to roll bats! Anything that alters the bat to change its performance is illegal.

Some bats coming out now are being manufactured that way. They are promoting them as bats that are "hot" off the line, so that there is no break-in period for the consumer.

I could show you a few places where this is true (Softball), but would you mind showing me where it states this about rolling bats in the NCAA/High School baseball rulebook?


I am told you can tell by looking at the bat if its been rolled or shaved. I played in a softball tourney a couple months back and thats all these guys talked about. I used a shaved bat once and it did have a lot more pop to it, too much for me as I am not a power hitter, I ended up flying out to RC where with the normal bats I was getting singles and doubles.

Cheaters never win in the end.

Unless you know what you are looking for, AND the person who did the work screwed it up, you wouldn't be able to tell a bat had been rolled or shaved. As for you saying "I used a shaved bat once"....If this was in a softball tourney or league, you yourself were cheating. FYI, shaved bats are illegal....


Just so we stay accurate here:

If composite minus-three BESR bats get hotter with use (or with artificial break-in), that's a problem because they are out-performing the regulation. With use, they're becoming non-compliant. It would give composite batters an advantage over un-suspecting aluminum batters, who count on the BESR reg to level the playing field.

With the large barrel bats used by Babe Ruth League or by Pony or the travel kids on the small field, it's not the same problem if composite bats get hotter because those types of bats don't have any regulations on them. There's nothing to comply with--or to become non-compliant with.

I suspect that when bat makers say their composite bats are "hot off the line"--don't need to be broken in--this may be marketing hype. I doubt they went to the time or expense to hammer, vice, or roll their bats.

To put it another way, is a "hot off the line" composite bat fully maxxed out, or does it get even hotter with use as its fibers and resins break down and 'loosen up', as they inevitably do in a composite?

All this stuff is discussed ad infinatum and on a daily basis on softballfans.com
The guys over there would know the answer.

Different bats are hotter out of the wrapper than others. They just are. The companies who produce the best bats, want them to perform to the highest level possible without exceeding the BPF determined for the association. Even if a bat is so called hot out of the wrapper, it can and usually does improve as the bat breaks in even further. Some bats have thicker walls and are destined to be logs, while others have the composite walls tuned for max performance and get hotter and hotter until finally the crack/split/explode and you get to start all over again.....


I should have said purposely altered the bat to improve performance. Another example, you cannot use a bat warmer becuase it would enhance performance.

How exactly does a bat warmer enhance performance and where in the baseball rules is this noted? You might argue that the compoiste becomes more elastic under the heat, but it isnt like you are melting em, you are just warming the outer part of the bat. Snake oil at its finest....


wow, i did not know this. It would seem to me (using a bat warmer) trying to comply with the bat manufacture warranty, rules are rules

thanks,

drill

Don't believe everything you read drill.... btw, the bat warmer thing is a little silly imho unless you are playing in temps below 45-50 degrees where I guess it could come into play. Hitting those batting cage balls will do more damage to your bat than hitting 3 or 4 baseballs during a game in the cold temps....Just keep the bat in your bag until you are ready to hit and save yourself a few bucks on the useless bat warmer. lol. Peace!!

[bob_r]

Now after just buying a new bat for my son I am going to put a piece of tape around it to make sure he rotates the bat to make sure he rolls the bat correctly by hitting ball over the winter, in the batting cage.


opinions?

drill

I don't think you want to use a composite bat in the cage. Basically there are three phases to a composite bat 1)the break in period, 2) the hot period and finially 3) the "my bat lost it's pop period"

After about a thousand hits the perfomance of a compsite bat starts to wane, and at about fifteen hundred hits you can expect failure in the form of cracks if its a good hitter that puts a decent swing on.

[Drill]

I don't think you want to use a composite bat in the cage. Basically there are three phases to a composite bat 1)the break in period, 2) the hot period and finially 3) the "my bat lost it's pop period"

After about a thousand hits the perfomance of a compsite bat starts to wane, and at about fifteen hundred hits you can expect failure in the form of cracks if its a good hitter that puts a decent swing on.

guess i will have to get him 2 or 3 bats at a time, so he can have different stages of breaking a bat in. I will stencil a number on it if, it not illegal to do that.

what $1200.00 anyways, I guess I will just fall in line for the marketing and lay my money down. {(:=)-<-<


play ball,


drill

[Maxx]

I could show you a few places where this is true (Softball), but would you mind showing me where it states this about rolling bats in the NCAA/High School baseball rulebook?



How exactly does a bat warmer enhance performance and where in the baseball rules is this noted? You might argue that the compoiste becomes more elastic under the heat, but it isnt like you are melting em, you are just warming the outer part of the bat. Snake oil at its finest....





Well, I am a softball coach, so I can't tell you about the baseball rules, but the NFHS rules state that bats may not be altered. Bat-warming-devices are specifically included in this policy. I don't have a copy of the NFHS rules book in front of me to quote you what is says verbatim. Most, if not all state high school associations adopt the NFHS policies. The NCAA softball rule book states that altered bats may not be used, but does not specificall mention bat warmers.

[Maxx]

Drill--a good route to go is to go on Ebay or a website where people sell their used bats and purchase a used model of the exact same bat for your son to use in the cage. Much cheaper that way.

[callyjr]

[QUOTE=hitnpeas;1327560]Unless you know what you are looking for, AND the person who did the work screwed it up, you wouldn't be able to tell a bat had been rolled or shaved. As for you saying "I used a shaved bat once"....If this was in a softball tourney or league, you yourself were cheating. FYI, shaved bats are illegal..../QUOTE]


yes I know and I hit it right to RC for an out.

[hitnpeas]

[QUOTE=hitnpeas;1327560]Unless you know what you are looking for, AND the person who did the work screwed it up, you wouldn't be able to tell a bat had been rolled or shaved. As for you saying "I used a shaved bat once"....If this was in a softball tourney or league, you yourself were cheating. FYI, shaved bats are illegal..../QUOTE]


yes I know and I hit it right to RC for an out.

Which still doesnt make it right.... In your case all went well and you got sent back to the dugout, but ive seen first hand what a shaved bat in the hands of someone that smashes the middle can do to a pitcher. It isnt pretty and being involved with a team using shaved bats imo is just as bad as using them yourself.... :rant:

[hitnpeas]

Well, I am a softball coach, so I can't tell you about the baseball rules, but the NFHS rules state that bats may not be altered. Bat-warming-devices are specifically included in this policy. I don't have a copy of the NFHS rules book in front of me to quote you what is says verbatim. Most, if not all state high school associations adopt the NFHS policies. The NCAA softball rule book states that altered bats may not be used, but does not specificall mention bat warmers.

I knew about it for softball, I just didnt know that it had made its way into the baseball rulebook which is the reason I asked for your reference....Thanks

[callyjr]

[QUOTE=callyjr;1328150]

Which still doesnt make it right.... In your case all went well and you got sent back to the dugout, but ive seen first hand what a shaved bat in the hands of someone that smashes the middle can do to a pitcher. It isnt pretty and being involved with a team using shaved bats imo is just as bad as using them yourself.... :rant:

No ****, aren't you a little critical, The bat came on the last day and our last game of the tourney, we still lost, I didn't even know about it until the 3rd inning in my 2nd plate appearance. I was 3 for 4 in the game, go figure.

[hitnpeas]

[QUOTE=hitnpeas;1328306]

No ****, aren't you a little critical, The bat came on the last day and our last game of the tourney, we still lost, I didn't even know about it until the 3rd inning in my 2nd plate appearance. I was 3 for 4 in the game, go figure.

Critical? Just call it low tolerance for people who knowingly cheat and put others at risk so they can hit a softball with more power....It amazes me what people will do so they can win at slowpitch softball. I guess that tourney t-shirt and trophy mean a lot to grown men, enough that they are willing to cheat to get it. Nice job.... :highfive:

[mudvnine]

[QUOTE=callyjr;1329314]

Critical? Just call it low tolerance for people who knowingly cheat and put others at risk so they can hit a softball with more power.... It amazes me what people will do so they can win at slowpitch softball. I guess that tourney t-shirt and trophy mean a lot to grown men, enough that they are willing to cheat to get it. Nice job.... :highfive:

hnp, if anyone was really worried about the players on the field, they wouldn't put ANY high-tech metal bats (rolled or not) in the hands of adult hitters on 60' base paths.

I never cared to play SP, but a co-worker plays regularly and 3 years ago put a SS in the hospital with a skull fracture, when a line shot he hit, glanced off the top of the guys glove.

I know that my buddy doesn't alter his bats, because we talked about it before the incident and he too thought it was ridiculous for someone to have to go to that length to win.

Why not even-up these silly games by putting wood in all their hands . . . none of that "it's too expensive" baseball, broken bat argument since no softball pitcher is going to saw someone off at the hands and hitting it off the end of the bat is simply an out. :shrug:

[hitnpeas]

[QUOTE=hitnpeas;1329715]

hnp, if anyone was really worried about the players on the field, they wouldn't put ANY high-tech metal bats (rolled or not) in the hands of adult hitters on 60' base paths.

I never cared to play SP, but a co-worker plays regularly and 3 years ago put a SS in the hospital with a skull fracture, when a line shot he hit, glanced off the top of the guys glove.

I know that my buddy doesn't alter his bats, because we talked about it before the incident and he too thought it was ridiculous for someone to have to go to that length to win.

Why not even-up these silly games by putting wood in all their hands . . . none of that "it's too expensive" baseball, broken bat argument since no softball pitcher is going to saw someone off at the hands and hitting it off the end of the bat is simply an out. :shrug:

It would be up to ASA/USSSA/NSA etc to make this happen and it would kill the sport. Not only would a lot of people stop playing, Easton and the other big names would lose so much revenue they wouldn't let it happen. The bat testing is becoming more common at tournies, but our leagues/tournies down here are filled with jacked up bats. Unless they put a no-composite restriction in place, it will continue to happen. It is the composite bats that are shaved and believe it or not, some people actually paint bats to resemble legal bats....Yes thats right, painted illegal bats so they can puff up their chests and hit a HR instead of working hard on their game and getting stronger in the gym. Call me critical but cheating at any sport or at any level is just plain wrong?