Jose Arredondo / Marshall comparison

[kylebee]

Someone in this forum (Postblank, I think) made a comparison between Jose Arredondo and Dr. Marshall's pitchers. I happened to be watching an Angels game and captured him throwing a fastball. Here's an animated image I captured with .1 sec frames:



I see minimal reverse rotation, forearm up and bent inwards at footstrike/shoulder turn, close to a vertical pitching forearm, glove pulled to shoulder, and a deceleration phase similar that to Marshall's pitchers.

The main differences, of course, are the amount of horizontal abduction that the pitching elbow gets in addition to excellent hip/torso separation.

Your thoughts?

[kylebee]

Here's what Sparks looked like when he was with the Rays.

[TG Coach]

Someone in this forum (Postblank, I think) made a comparison between Jose Arredondo and Dr. Marshall's pitchers. I happened to be watching an Angels game and captured him throwing a fastball. Here's an animated image I captured with .1 sec frames:



I see minimal reverse rotation, forearm up and bent inwards at footstrike/shoulder turn, close to a vertical pitching forearm, glove pulled to shoulder, and a deceleration phase similar that to Marshall's pitchers.

The main differences, of course, are the amount of horizontal abduction that the pitching elbow gets in addition to excellent hip/torso separation.

Your thoughts?

Look at the scoreboard. The Marshall pitchers preceeded this guy.

[kylebee]

Look at the scoreboard. The Marshall pitchers preceeded this guy.

Heh, heh. Yeah, I captured a real barnburner.

[kylebee]

I should say that Arredondo's pitching forearm up before he drives the ball forward will cause what Dr. Marshall calls "pitching forearm bounce." I know that Marshall wants his students to drive the ball horizontally with the arm laid back and not up, but none of his students do this, and there exists evidence that it places great stress on the shoulder even if it was acheiveable (see ASMI's measurements as well as Patrick Howe's injuries).

[Chris O'Leary]

Someone in this forum (Postblank, I think) made a comparison between Jose Arredondo and Dr. Marshall's pitchers. I happened to be watching an Angels game and captured him throwing a fastball. Here's an animated image I captured with .1 sec frames:



I see minimal reverse rotation, forearm up and bent inwards at footstrike/shoulder turn, close to a vertical pitching forearm, glove pulled to shoulder, and a deceleration phase similar that to Marshall's pitchers.

The main differences, of course, are the amount of horizontal abduction that the pitching elbow gets in addition to excellent hip/torso separation.

Your thoughts?

What was the velocity of the pitch?

[Baseball gLove]

Sparks' pronation is more pronounced.

[kylebee]

What was the velocity of the pitch?

Sorry, cut the animated image off by just a hair. It was 94 mph. Arredondo works from 94-97 mph with his fastball and throws two offspeed pitches as well (changeup/splitter).

[kylebee]

Sparks' pronation is more pronounced.

True, but he is throwing a Maxline True Screwball in that clip, which probably has something to do with it. :)

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's what Sparks looked like when he was with the Rays.



That's a hell of a pitch.

It looks like it's going to miss high and then dives down and in.

Too bad Sparks didn't have a fastball to match it.

[kylebee]

That's a hell of a pitch.

It looks like it's going to miss high and then dives down and in.

Too bad Sparks didn't have a fastball to match it.

Sure was. Sparks had a good enough fastball to compete, if you ask me. His offspeed stuff was very good (Maxline Fastball Sinker and both his screwballs were good, though his Maxline Pronation Curveball was lacking at the time) and his fastballs, while straight, were fast enough. Ultimately, his utter lack of control (and possibly rigid adherence to Marshall's "sequences" in combination with his attitude) ruined him.

[Baseball gLove]

The pitch looks like my son's change up. He was in front of several Div I coaches recently. It was fun to watch them watch him.

[kylebee]

The pitch looks like my son's change up. He was in front of several Div I coaches recently. It was fun to watch them watch him.

Speaking of hellish changeups, check out Max Scherzer's:

[Chris O'Leary]

Sure was. Sparks had a good enough fastball to compete, if you ask me. His offspeed stuff was very good (Maxline Fastball Sinker and both his screwballs were good, though his Maxline Pronation Curveball was lacking at the time) and his fastballs, while straight, were fast enough. Ultimately, his utter lack of control (and possibly rigid adherence to Marshall's "sequences" in combination with his attitude) ruined him.

I agree that Sparks lack of control didn't do him any favors.

However, I also think Sparks' flat fastball was a bigger problem than some say it was because its trajectory was distinctly different out of the hand than his other pitches. As a result, and because he didn't have a change-up, hitters could sit on Sparks' fastball. What's more, since they knew his FB was flat, it wasn't that hard to square it up if they timed it right.

Also, the fact that Sparks threw his flat fastball in predictable sequences made it that much easier to sit on his fastball.

All of that created a pitcher would would look great at first but who was highly hittable once hitters figured him out.

[kylebee]

I agree that Sparks lack of control didn't do him any favors.

However, I also think Sparks' flat fastball was a bigger problem than some say it was because its trajectory was distinctly different out of the hand than his other pitches. As a result, and because he didn't have a change-up, hitters could sit on Sparks' fastball. What's more, since they knew his FB was flat, it wasn't that hard to square it up if they timed it right.

Also, the fact that Sparks threw his flat fastball in predictable sequences made it that much easier to sit on his fastball.

All of that created a pitcher would would look great at first but who was highly hittable once hitters figured him out.

I can't speak to his fastball trajectory differing than his other pitches (but wouldn't be surprised), but the Maxline Fastball Sinker is basically a changeup. On that point I do agree with Dr. Marshall, though I am certainly not advocating not teaching kids changeups!

The pitch "sequences" are bunk and based on small sample sizes as well as a different era of pitching. His students should kick them to the curb.

I think he could have been an effective and durable reliever despite his flat fastball. Limit his exposure to the lineup to once through in middle relief situations, and I think he would have found success (assuming he figured out how to throw strikes).

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's recent, 60FPS video of Rudy Seanez...



I like Seanez's mechanics, and especially his arm action and timing, better than Arredondo's (Arrendondo's timing is a little borderline IMO). While Seanez breaks his hands, and gets his arm up, early like Freddy Garcia, he doesn't have Garcia's problem with hyperabduction.

[Postblankier]

(and possibly rigid adherence to Marshall's "sequences" in combination with his attitude) ruined him.Sparks never really followed the sequences, and certainly not rigidly. Note on his TBD footage that he only threw Mo Vaughn fastballs, and Mo couldn't hit a single one (Hi Chris!)

Arredondo looks a little different to me in that clip than when I watched his appearance against the Phillies earlier in the season. His hand was explicitly underneath the ball and he didn't pull across quite a much as he does there. His body action still looks sloppy by anyone's standards, but he can still get the job done like that.


I should say that Arredondo's pitching forearm up before he drives the ball forward will cause what Dr. Marshall calls "pitching forearm bounce." I know that Marshall wants his students to drive the ball horizontally with the arm laid back and not up, but none of his students do this, and there exists evidence that it places great stress on the shoulder even if it was acheiveable (see ASMI's measurements as well as Patrick Howe's injuries).From all accounts, Howe couldn't/wouldn't get the elbow up even as high as the people not performing optimally did. You can even see how low the elbow drops on his '07 high speed film.

[kylebee]

Here's recent, 60FPS video of Rudy Seanez...



I like Seanez's mechanics, and especially his arm action and timing, better than Arredondo's (Arrendondo's timing is a little borderline IMO). While Seanez breaks his hands, and gets his arm up, early like Freddy Garcia, he doesn't have Garcia's problem with hyperabduction.

Holy cow, I have never seen Seanez pitch after learning about Marshall. Amazing similarities.

(Yes, I know the story between Seanez and Marshall.)

[PhilliesPhan22]

Holy cow, I have never seen Seanez pitch after learning about Marshall. Amazing similarities.

(Yes, I know the story between Seanez and Marshall.)

I don't, please tell. Rudy has pitched better for us than I thought he would.

[Baseball gLove]

Sparks never really followed the sequences, and certainly not rigidly. Note on his TBD footage that he only threw Mo Vaughn fastballs, and Mo couldn't hit a single one (Hi Chris!)....

Do you mean when Mo led the American League in Strike Outs.

I think even Mark Grace struck him out in an interleague game (joking)

[kylebee]

I don't, please tell. Rudy has pitched better for us than I thought he would.

Seanez trained with Marshall in the past and reportedly jumped his velocity to over 100 mph at one point. He was taught a lot of things but ended up keeping bits and pieces of the delivery (most notably the arm action) and the Maxline Fastball Sinker, continuing to supinate the release of his slider (with very bad "pull" as Marshall would say it).

Furthermore, Marshall has recently claimed that Seanez signed a contract with him that entitled Dr. Marshall to 5% of his big league salaries, and that he has never paid.

[Postblankier]

Seanez trained with Marshall in the past and reportedly jumped his velocity to over 100 mph at one point. He was taught a lot of things but ended up keeping bits and pieces of the delivery (most notably the arm action) and the Maxline Fastball Sinker, continuing to supinate the release of his slider (with very bad "pull" as Marshall would say it).

Furthermore, Marshall has recently claimed that Seanez signed a contract with him that entitled Dr. Marshall to 5% of his big league salaries, and that he has never paid.This was also when the body action was a compromise, so Rudy basically took what he learned from two separate offseasons and has been using it.

We all sign that agreement. But when Rudy signed it, there was a clause that you could opt out of the agreement if you felt the training didn't benefit you at all. Rudy pitched (I think for Atlanta) after the second time around, didn't pay up and sent a letter the following Spring that the training didn't help him whatsoever. Given Rudy's comments in the Yahoo! Sports article, you could conclude that he ran out on his bill.


Do you mean when Mo led the American League in Strike Outs.No doubt Mo wasn't the Mo from his Boston years, but they wouldn't have put him out there if they didn't think he could hit one out of three fastballs.

[Baseball gLove]

This was also when the body action was a compromise, so Rudy basically took what he learned from two separate offseasons and has been using it.

We all sign that agreement. But when Rudy signed it, there was a clause that you could opt out of the agreement if you felt the training didn't benefit you at all. Rudy pitched (I think for Atlanta) after the second time around, didn't pay up and sent a letter the following Spring that the training didn't help him whatsoever. Given Rudy's comments in the Yahoo! Sports article, you could conclude that he ran out on his bill.

No doubt Mo wasn't the Mo from his Boston years, but they wouldn't have put him out there if they didn't think he could hit one out of three fastballs.


His average was less than that.

[Postblankier]

His average was less than that.Most people's averages are or would be at that level, but I understand this was during Vaughn's very steep decline. But I meant specific to one at bat. Even someone at that point in their career should be able to not swing and miss horribly at three fastballs (in more or less the same spot each time) if they were as flat as Mr. O'Leary would have people believe.

[Chris O'Leary]

Most people's averages are or would be at that level, but I understand this was during Vaughn's very steep decline. But I meant specific to one at bat. Even someone at that point in their career should be able to not swing and miss horribly at three fastballs (in more or less the same spot each time) if they were as flat as Mr. O'Leary would have people believe.

Just to be clear, a flat fastball will sometimes work if you are able to spot it or command it (hit a precise spot in the strike zone). Maddux throws a fairly flat 4-seamer, but keep in mind that he has great command over it (he throws it on the black) and also pairs it with a plus 2-seamer and a plus change-up.

I think Sparks' control problems (due in part to his big head jerk) made it hard for him to be able to spot his fastball and led him to leave it fat occasionally.

That doesn't mean Sparks wasn't able to get some people out, but on average I think it helped to explain some of his problems.

[Postblankier]

Just to be clear, a flat fastball will sometimes work if you are able to spot it or command it (hit a precise spot in the strike zone). Maddux throws a fairly flat 4-seamer, but keep in mind that he has great command over it (he throws it on the black) and also pairs it with a plus 2-seamer and a plus change-up.

I think Sparks' control problems (due in part to his big head jerk) made it hard for him to be able to spot his fastball and led him to leave it fat occasionally.

That doesn't mean Sparks wasn't able to get some people out, but on average I think it helped to explain some of his problems.The head jerk is symptomatic of pulling across the body, which is exactly what Jeff is doing in the above clip. He's just slinging that screwball from the same "slot" as a traditional pitcher. Mike F has a very similar problem because he loads his arm too far back laterally.

I can't wait for the 2009 high speed filmings, because there's a couple guys down here that don't head jerk whatsoever. I don't either, but I have to break the habit of watching myself swing my arm up.

EDIT: Maddux also plays with grips a lot, I don't think classifying him as only having two kinds of fastball is quite accurate. He threw one in a start against Cole Hamels in April or May that had the most ridiculous late tail I've seen.

[Chris O'Leary]

The head jerk is symptomatic of pulling across the body, which is exactly what Jeff is doing in the above clip. He's just slinging that screwball from the same "slot" as a traditional pitcher. Mike F has a very similar problem because he loads his arm too far back laterally.

I can't wait for the 2009 high speed filmings, because there's a couple guys down here that don't head jerk whatsoever. I don't either, but I have to break the habit of watching myself swing my arm up.

I think it's pretty funny that Marshall et al ridicule me (I'm an "an athletic dweeb" in Marshall's own words per Q&A file 2008.721) and call me a liar about the work I've done at the Major League level (sorry, but you've got the team wrong) and then address/fix the very problems I'm complaining about.

Next thing I know, Marshall will be back* to promoting hip/shoulder separation.

* See Marshall's Q&A file 2005.805. Marshall: "You are correct. Baseball pitchers should forwardly rotate their hips and leave their shoulders behind. Then, when the hips have forwardly rotated as far as they can, pitchers should forwardly rotate their shoulders as far as they can."

[PhilliesPhan22]

Seanez trained with Marshall in the past and reportedly jumped his velocity to over 100 mph at one point. He was taught a lot of things but ended up keeping bits and pieces of the delivery (most notably the arm action) and the Maxline Fastball Sinker, continuing to supinate the release of his slider (with very bad "pull" as Marshall would say it).

Furthermore, Marshall has recently claimed that Seanez signed a contract with him that entitled Dr. Marshall to 5% of his big league salaries, and that he has never paid.

Yeah, Rudy used to throw really hard, until he hurt his arm. Now he is an 88-92 guy.