BBF Progressive HoF Election: 1920

[DoubleX]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING!

Format and Rules
Voting Rules: Until further notice, voters may vote for between 0-15 candidates. Votes will be made public, and voters are encouraged to post their ballots in the thread and not view results before voting. PLEASE LIMIT YOUR BALLOT TO 15 VOTES AT MOST. EXCESS VOTES MAY RESULT IN YOUR BALLOT BEING DISQUALIFIED.
-Blank Ballots: A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot. This option is not to be taken lightly and it is strongly urged that it be used only after the utmost consideration, as non-votes are essentially votes against. Additionally, if using this option, please post your rationale.

Thoughtfulness and Editing Ballots: Please review and thoughtfully consider the candidates before voting, and make sure you have accurately filled out your ballot before submitting. Requests for editing ballots after the fact will generally not be honored. Exceptions might be made if a voter accidentally voted for the wrong player or accidentally went over the voting limit (but I strongly encourage you to do your best to prevent either from happening).

Required Support: Players receiving at least 75% support in an election will be elected. Players need at least 5% support to stay on the ballot, with an exception for first-year eligible players, who will need at least 1 vote to appear on the next ballot.

Player Eligibility: Players eligible for an election will have last played at least 5 years prior to the election year and have appeared in at least 10 Major League seasons . If a player appeared in less than 10 seasons, he may still be eligible if he had a minimum of 3000 ABs or 1500 IP, though extra scrutiny will be applied. Players will remain on the ballot for 15 years, provided they continue to receive at least 5% of the vote, at which point they will become indefinitely eligible for periodic elections conducted by the Veterans Committee.
- Age Exception: For players 40 or older, they will become eligible the later of either 5 years after their last year of continuous play, or their first inactive year at age 45 or older.

Election Period: Elections will close exactly one week after starting. The next election might not commence for another day or two.


1920 Guide
There are 29 candidates on the 1920 ballot - 16 holdovers and 13 first timers. First time eligible players last played in 1915 (unless qualifying under the age rule).

First Timers (13)
Roger Bresnahan
Al Bridwell
Bill Bradley
Howie Camnitz
Jim Delahanty
Russ Ford
Frank LaPorte
George Mullin
Danny Murphy
Frank Smith
George Stovall
Billy Sullivan – Age Rule
Hooks Wiltse

Holdovers (16)
Player Year of Eligibility Previous Support High Support
Frank Chance 2nd 62.96% 62.96% (1919)
Cupid Childs 15th 59.26% 70.83% (1918)
Lave Cross 9th 25.93% 30.43% (1912)
Mike Donlin 2nd 25.93% 25.93% (1919)
Clark Griffith 6th 51.85% 52.00% (1917)
Hughie Jennings 7th 62.96% 64.00% (1917)
Fielder Jones 8th 11.11% 12.50% (1918)
Addie Joss 6th 74.07% 74.07% (1919)
Joe Kelley 8th 74.07% 74.07% (1919)
Johnny Kling 3rd 22.22% 22.22% (1919)
Herman Long 12th 51.85% 56.52% (1913)
John McGraw 10th 37.04% 47.83% (1912)
Jimmy Ryan 13th 59.26% 59.26% (1919)
Cy Seymour 3rd 11.11% 12.50% (1918)
Jimmy Sheckard 3rd 29.63% 41.67% (1918)
Roy Thomas 5th 22.22% 25.00% (1917)

Holdovers Dropped from Last Election (4)
Player Reason Years on Ballot High Support
Orval Overall Lack of Support 2 4.17% (1918)
Doc White Lack of Support 2 4.17% (1918)

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Player High Support
Cupid Childs 70.83% (1918)

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (0)
Player High Support

Holdovers Receiving At Least 50% in the Previous Election (8)
Player 1919 Support Years with At Least 50% Support
Addie Joss 74.07% 5
Joe Kelley 74.07% 5
Frank Chance 62.96% 1
Hughie Jennings 62.86% 5
Cupid Childs 59.26% 8
Jimmy Ryan 59.26% 3
Clark Griffith 51.85% 2
Herman Long 51.85% 2

Hall of “Almost” - Players Receiving At Least 2/3 Support in an Election But Never Elected (4)
Player High Support “Almost Years” Last Year on Ballot
Addie Joss 74.07% (1919) 1
Joe Kelley 74.07% (1919) 3
Cupid Childs 70.83% (1918) 1
Hardy Richardson 69.57% (1912) 3 1915


Hall of Famers

Players Elected (43)
Player Year Elected Election Percentage Years on Ballot Position Primary Team Active Years Total Seasons
Cap Anson 1902 100% 1 First Base Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1871-1897 27
Ross Barnes 1911 76.00% 11 Second Base Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1879, 1881 9
Jake Beckley 1917 76.00% 6 First Base Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1887-1907 20
Charlie Bennett 1907 75.00% 7 Catcher Detroit Wolverines (NL) 1878, 1880-1893 15
Pete Browning 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field/Left Field Louisville Colonels (NL/AA) 1882-1894 13
Dan Brouthers 1901 90.00% 1 First Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1879-1896, 1904 18
Jesse Burkett 1910 92.00% 1 Left field Cleveland Spiders (NL) 1890-1905 16
Bob Caruthers 1909 77.27% 9 Pitcher/Right Field St. Louis Browns (Cardinals) (NL/AA) 1884-1893 10
Fred Clarke 1917 88.00% 1 Left Field Pittsburgh Pirates (NL) 1894-1915 21
John Clarkson 1901 90.00% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1882, 1884-1894 12
Jimmy Collins 1913 82.61% 1 Third Base Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1895-1908 14
Roger Connor 1902 79.17% 1 First Base New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18
Bill Dahlen 1916 88.00% 1 Shortstop Chicago Colts (Cubs) (NL) 1891-1911 21
George Davis 1914 84.62% 1 Shortstop New York Giants (NL) 1890-1909 20
Ed Delahanty 1908 96.00% 1 Left Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1903 16
Hugh Duffy 1918 75.00% 8 Center Field/Outfield Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1888-1901, 1904-1906 17
Buck Ewing 1902 83.33% 1 Catcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1897 18
Elmer Flick 1916 80.00% 1 Right Field Cleveland Naps (Indians) (AL) 1898-1910 13
Pud Galvin 1903 80.77% 3 Pitcher Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1875, 1879-1892 15
Jack Glasscock 1911 84.00% 11 Shortstop Cleveland Blues (NL) 1879-1895 17
George Gore 1909 77.27% 9 Center Field Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1879-1892 14
Billy Hamilton 1906 82.61% 1 Center Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1888-1901 14
Paul Hines 1904 76.00% 4 Center Field Providence Grays (NL) 1872-1891 20
Tim Keefe 1901 75.00% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1880-1893 14
Willie Keeler 1916 92.00% 2 Right Field Baltimore Orioles (NL) 1892-1910 19
King Kelly 1902 75.00% 2 Right Field/Catcher Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) (NL) 1878-1893 16
Joe McGinnity 1913 91.30% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1899-1908 10
Bid McPhee 1905 75.00% 2 Second Base Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1882-1899 18
Tony Mullane 1908 80.00% 8 Pitcher Cincinnati Reds (NL/AA) 1881-1894 14
Kid Nichols 1911 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1890-1901, 1904-1906 15
Jim O’Rourke 1901 90.00% 1 Left Field/Utility New York Giants (NL) 1872-1893, 1904 23
Charley Radbourn 1901 95.00% 1 Pitcher Providence Grays (NL) 1881-1891 11
Amos Rusie 1906 78.26% 1 Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1889-1895, 1897-1898, 1901 10
Al Spalding 1915 80.00% 15 Pitcher Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1878 8
Harry Stovey 1907 75.00% 7 Left Field/First Base Philadelphia Athletics (AA) 1880-1893 14
Sam Thompson 1907 79.17% 5 Right Field Philadelphia Phillies (NL) 1885-1898, 1906 15
George Van Haltren 1918 75.00% 11 Center Field New York Giants (NL) 1887-1903 17
Rube Waddell 1915 84.00% 1 Pitcher Philadelphia Athletics (AL) 1897, 1899-1910 13
John Ward 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop/Pitcher New York Giants (NL) 1878-1894 17
Deacon White 1904 76.00% 4 Catcher/Third Base Buffalo Bisons (NL) 1871-1890 20
George Wright 1907 75.00% 7 Shortstop Boston Red Stockings (NA) 1871-1882 12
Cy Young 1916 100% 1 Pitcher Boston Americans (Red Sox) (AL) 1890-1911 22
Vic Willis 1919 77.78% 5 Pitcher Boston Beaneaters (Braves) (NL) 1898-1910 13

Players Elected by Primary Position
Catcher (3): Charlie Bennett, Buck Ewing, Deacon White
First Base (4): Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Roger Conner
Second Base (2): Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
Third Base (1): Jimmy Collins
Shortstop (5): Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, John Ward, George Wright
Left Field (5): Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Ed Delahanty, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Field (6): Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, George Gore, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, George Van Haltren
Right Field (4): King Kelly, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Sam Thompson
Pitcher (13): Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Tim Keefe, Joe McGinnity, Tony Mullane, Kid Nichols, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Rube Waddell, Vic Willis, Cy Young

Players Elected by Year
1901 (5): Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Jim O’Rourke, Charley Radbourn
1902 (4): Cap Anson, Roger Conner, Buck Ewing, King Kelly
1903 (1): Pud Galvin
1904 (2): Paul Hines, Deacon White
1905 (1): Bid McPhee
1906 (2): Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
1907 (5): Charlie Bennett, Harry Stovey, Sam Thompson, John Ward, George Wright
1908 (2): Ed Delahanty, Tony Mullane
1909 (3): Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, George Gore
1910 (1): Jesse Burkett
1911 (3): Ross Barnes, Jack Glasscock, Kid Nichols
1912 (0):
1913 (2): Jimmy Collins, Joe McGinnity
1914 (1): George Davis
1915 (2): Al Spalding, Rube Waddell
1916 (4): Bill Dahlen, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1917 (2): Jake Beckley, Fred Clarke
1918 (2): Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren
1919 (1): Vic Willis
Living Hall of Famers (29)
Player Age Induction Year
Cap Anson 68 1902
Charlie Bennett 66 1907
Dan Brouthers 62 1901
Jesse Burkett 52 1910
Fred Clarke 48 1917
Jimmy Collins 50 1913
Roger Connor 63 1902
Bill Dahlen 50 1916
George Davis 50 1914
Hugh Duffy 54 1918
Elmer Flick 44 1916
Jack Glasscock 63 1911
George Gore 63 1909
Billy Hamilton 54 1906
Paul Hines 65 1904
Tim Keefe 63 1901
Willie Keeler 48 1916
Joe McGinnity 49 1913
Bid McPhee 61 1905
Tony Mullane 61 1908
Kid Nichols 51 1911
Amos Rusie 49 1906
Harry Stovey 64 1907
Sam Thompson 60 1907
George Van Haltren 54 1918
John Ward 60 1907
Deacon White 73 1904
George Wright 73 1907
Cy Young 53 1916
Vic Willis 44 1919

Hall of Famers Who Died in Past Year (1)
Player Age at Death Induction Year
Jim O’Rourke 68 1901


Miscellaneous Information
- Highest Election Percentage: Cap Anson, Kid Nichols, Cy Young – 100%
- Number of 1st Ballot Electees: 20
- Number of Electees with At Least 90% Support: 11
- Average Election Percentage: 82.78%
- Most Years on Ballot Before Election: 15 – Al Spalding
- Number of Players Elected After 10 Years: 4
- Average Wait Before Election: 4.05 Years
- Most Electees in One Year: 5 (1901, 1907)
- Fewest Electees in One Year: 0 (1912)
- Average Electees Per Year: 2.26
- Largest Ballot: 78 Players (1901)
- Smallest Ballot: 23 Players (1918)
- Most Votes Cast: 27 (1919)
- Fewest Votes Cast: 20 (1901)
- Average Votes Cast: 24.26
- Team With Most Players Elected: New York Giants - 9
- Team With Second Most Players Elected: Boston Braves (fka Beaneaters), Chicago Cubs (fka White Stockings, Colts) - 4
- Electee with Longest Career: Cap Anson – 27 Seasons
- Electee with Shortest Career: Al Spalding – 8 Seasons
- Average Career Length of Electees: 15.79 Seasons
- Oldest Living Hall of Famer: Deacon White, George Wright - 73
- Highest Election Percentage Among Players Not Elected: Addie Joss, Joe Kelley – 74.07%

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past Elections
1901: 20
1902: 24
1903: 26
1904: 25
1905: 24
1906: 23
1907: 24
1908: 25
1909: 22
1910: 25
1911: 25
1912: 23
1913: 23
1914: 26
1915: 25
1916: 25
1917: 25
1918: 24
1919: 27

Links to Past Elections (10)
1901 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77167)
1902 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77464)
1903 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=77797)
1904 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78133)
1905 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78417)
1906 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78737)
1907 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79020)
1908 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79393)
1909 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79738)
1910 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80134)
1911 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80597)
1912 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81008)
1913 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81477)
1914 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81965)
1915 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82365)
1916 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82681)
1917 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82940)
1918 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83241)
1919 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83422)

[Freakshow]

Willis was elected. Taking his place is newbie Bresnahan.

Bresnahan
Chance
Childs
L. Cross
Griffith
Jennings
F. Jones
Joss
J. Kelley
Long
McGraw
Ryan
Seymour
Sheckard
Thomas

[leecemark]

Roger Bresnahan, C - only newbie to make my ballot
Frank Chance, 1B - best player of best team in history - and managed it to boot!
Cupid Childs, 2B - last chance to do justice to Cupid
Clark Griffith, SP - terrific pitcher, who was also a success player-manager (one of the few)
Hughie Jennings, SS - best infield peak since Barnes
Joe Kelley, LF - clearly better than VanHaltren and Duffy
Johnny Kling, C - outstandign catcher for Cub dynasty
Herman Long - best defensive SS ever? best player on Beaneater dynasy
John McGraw, 3B - another great IF peak
Jimmy Ryan, CF - clearly meets GVH/Duffy standard
Jimmy Sheckard, LF - outstanding all around player

[DoubleX]

I went with:

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Lave Cross
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Joe Kelley
Jimmy Ryan

Joss and Kelley came about as close to election as one can get last year. With Van Haltren and Duffy creating a new definitive standard for the OF two years ago, there should be no question as to Kelley being worthy. I'm still puzzled with Jimmy Ryan who is extremely similar to both Duffy and Van Haltren struggles so much.

This is our last chance for Childs. I've joined this bandwagon late, but after receiving over 70% two years ago, he fell back under 60% last year. It's puzzling why we don't seem to afford the same lenient standards elsewhere that we do in the OF. Childs should be in, but like Ezra Sutton and Hardy Richardson, I fear this could be a regrettable whiff by us (I'd throw Ed McKean in there too now).

Jennings is new to my ballot. He fits within our expanding standards. I have to also admit, I'm waning on Lave Cross. I know I kicked up a huge fuss last year, but thrust of my point was how different perception can be when we look only at things with 2008 eyes rather than try to appreciate how things we're viewed in a contemporaneous context. Cross seemed to be a good example of this because by our 2008 statistical analysis, he isn't that striking, but if you do a little research, it's easy to see that he was very revered when he played.

Finally, and this is a most troubling issue, stories of gambling infecting our national game are emerging with alarming frequency. Most notably, a Grand Jury has convened in Chicago to investigate the conduct of several White Sox players in last year's World Series (I told you guys they seemed off). Even the great Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte, players that we would likely be honoring one day, have been implicated. Then there are also the many rumors surrounding Hal Chase and to a lesser extent, Heinie Zimmerman. With Chase in particular, it seems we might have had a great player that sought to undermine the integrity of the game on multiple occasions and possibly corrupting a number of others (including umpires) in the process.

The question is, what should we do about this, if anything? I say depending on the evidence that emerges and decisions made by the league presidents and/or a court of law, players that are culpable of manipulating outcomes of games should be removed from consideration here. Honoring those players is not a precedent I want to set.

[jjpm74]

My Ballot:

Roger Bresnahan--The best catcher of his era. We've elected Bennett. Bresnahan belongs.

Bill Bradley--This guy could do it all. He was an amazing power hitter, he was a fast base runner and he was one of the best defensive third basemen in the history of the game. Only Jimmy Collins and maybe Ezra Sutton were better than Bradley.

Frank Chance--A team leader on and off the field on one of baseball's greatest franchises.

Cupid Childs--Good peak, last year of consideration. Worthy of joining the ranks of the HOF.

Lave Cross--Longevity was on his side. He retired 3rd all time in hits. Even today he's in the top 10.

Hughie Jennings--His career was short, but he was amazing during that time.

Joe Kelley--Well over the line we've set. Much better than the already elected GVH and Duffy.

Johnny Kling--One of the most durable catchers ever to field the position and a key player on those successful Cubs squads.

Herman Long--The Bid McPhee of short stops.

Jimmy Ryan--Over the GVH/Duffy line and worthy of the HOF.

Roy Thomas--An amazing outfielder who is on par with several outfielders we've already elected.

I removed Addie Joss from my ballot, but can go either way on him and could be persuaded to add him back if someone wants to champion his cause.

[Paul Wendt]

Bill Bradley
Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Lave Cross
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Joe Kelley
Johnny Kling
Herman Long
John McGraw
Cy Seymour
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas

[jjpm74]

Finally, and this is a most troubling issue, stories of gambling infecting our national game are emerging with alarming frequency. Most notably, a Grand Jury has convened in Chicago to investigate the conduct of several White Sox players in last year's World Series (I told you guys they seemed off). Even the great Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte, players that we would likely be honoring one day, have been implicated. Then there are also the many rumors surrounding Hal Chase and to a lesser extent, Heinie Zimmerman. With Chase in particular, it seems we might have had a great player that sought to undermine the integrity of the game on multiple occasions and possibly corrupting a number of others (including umpires) in the process.


Collins, the squeaky clean college boy would never gamble. Joe Jackson was amazing in the series. There's no way. I also heard Bucky was involved in this. Bucky loves the game. No way these three gambled. I wouldn't be surprised in Chickey was involved. That guy's a scrapper. I saw him drunk and fighting in bars on a few occasions.

[DoubleX]

Collins, the squeaky clean college boy would never gamble. Joe Jackson was amazing in the series. There's no way. I also heard Bucky was involved in this. Bucky loves the game. No way these three gambled. I wouldn't be surprised in Chickey was involved. That guy's a scrapper. I saw him drunk and fighting in bars on a few occasions.

The White Sox situation is still very hazy. The rumors are too terrible to believe - would a team really throw the World Series?

It's much more difficult to give Chase and Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, especially Chase. There are a lot of rumors surrounding Chase's conduct over the years.

[KCGHOST]

Childs
Griffith
Joss
J. Kelley
McGraw
Ryan

[DoubleX]

I removed Addie Joss from my ballot, but can go either way on him and could be persuaded to add him back if someone wants to champion his cause.

He wasn't quite the innings eater that people like, but when he did pitch (which was still quite a bit, even if not quite a workhorse), it was at a very high level, year after year for 9 years. A 142 ERA+ over 9 seasons is hard to overlook, IMO. He's all peak, what he's missing are some of those filler years, but regardless of he had those filler years or not, it would be his peak that people would be voting on. He also finished 90% of the games he started, which I believe is 8% higher than his elected peers Vic Willis and Joe McGinnity. Over 17% of his starts were shutouts, which is more than double McGinnity's percentage.

Losing your vote will definitely make things tough for him. Even though he came within 1% of election last year, I don't see him maintaining that level, particularly with much stronger classes over the next couple of years. Here's who we'll have in the next two elections:

1921: Christy Mathewson, Napoleon Lajoie, Mordecai Brown, Joe Tinker
1922: Honus Wagner, Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh

It's been a while since we've had players that really stand out as bona fide, top tier, Hall of Famers. But in the next two years, we'll arguably have five to seven of them in Mathewson, Lajoie, Brown, Wagner, Crawford, Plank, and Walsh

[PVNICK]

Chance
Childs
Cross
Kling
Ryan
Sheckard

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bresnahan
Chance
Childs
Cross
Griffith
Jennings
Joss
Kelley
Kling
Long
Ryan
Sheckard

[Freakshow]

Here's who we'll have in the next two elections:

1921: Christy Mathewson, Napoleon Lajoie, Mordecai Brown, Joe Tinker
1922: Honus Wagner, Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh

It's been a while since we've had players that really stand out as bona fide, top tier, Hall of Famers. But in the next two years, we'll arguably have five to seven of them in Mathewson, Lajoie, Brown, Wagner, Crawford, Plank, and WalshWe'll clear that gang out in pretty short order. But have you looked beyond that? The following nine elections have maybe two or three total (Magee, Baker, Jackson?). The elections of 1923-31 will get pretty dull. Either that or our standards will fall through the floor. You might consider biannual elections to get through that period more quickly. That is, after the 1923 election, skip to 1925 and combine the newbies for 1924 and 1925. Also combine 1926-27, 1928-29 and 1930-31. Take a look at it.

[Freakshow]

Also, players coming on under the age rule or who appeared more than five years after their last consecutive season.

1921
Bill Donovan-P (age 45)
Nick Altrock-P (age 45)
Germany Schaefer-2B (age 45)
1922
Tommy Leach-3B (age 45)
Chief Bender-P (played 1925)

[Paul Wendt]

We'll clear that gang out in pretty short order. But have you looked beyond that? The following nine elections have maybe two or three total (Magee, Baker, Jackson?). The elections of 1923-31 will get pretty dull.
There will be Bobby Wallace and Tommy Leach but we haven't smiled on many infielders. They go back to the 1890s, too, with Lajoie, Wagner, and Crawford. What happened to the younger generation?

You know, some of the best players on colored teams are now as good as any in the white leagues. But that cannot explain what FS foresees, because we have always considered whites only. Where are the schoolboys who followed the Orioles, Spiders, Beaneaters, and Hanlon's Superbas?
. . . Johnny Evers was 17 when Hanlon merged the Brooklyns and Baltimores. Evers was the brainiest player but too frail. Was there no Evers who played 20 seasons in the big leagues?
. . . Eddie Cicotte was 15. He is under a shadow now but still one of the best when he is at work. Ed Walsh lost his stuff. After Jack Chesbro mastered the spitball they were all keen on that pitch. Maybe it hurt their arms. Did any of them last as long as Matty? For sure we will never see the lke of Cy Young again.

[jalbright]

1. Childs
2. Kelley
3. Long

[jjpm74]

We'll clear that gang out in pretty short order. But have you looked beyond that? The following nine elections have maybe two or three total (Magee, Baker, Jackson?). The elections of 1923-31 will get pretty dull. Either that or our standards will fall through the floor. You might consider biannual elections to get through that period more quickly. That is, after the 1923 election, skip to 1925 and combine the newbies for 1924 and 1925. Also combine 1926-27, 1928-29 and 1930-31. Take a look at it.

Looking ahead, these are some of the guys who show up in HOF conversations from 1923-1931 (1918-1926):

1923--Tommy Leach, Frank Schulte, Bobby Wallace, Bill Donovan
1924--Hal Chase, Sherry Magee, Red Ames, Terry Turner (depending on how much credit he should get for inventing the head first dive)
1925--Ray Chapman, Gavvy Cravath, Larry Doyle, Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, Eddie Ciccotte, Claude Hendrix
1926--Ed Konetchy, Duffy Lewis, Hippo Vaughn
1927--Frank Baker, Art Fletcher, Clyde Milan, Smoky Joe Wood
1928--Donnie Bush, Tilly Walker, Fred Toney
1929--Jake Daubert, Larry Gardner, Del Pratt, Jeff Pfeffer
1930--George J. Burns, Max Flack, Harry Hooper, Bobby Veach, Chief Bender, Rube Marquard
1931--Jimmy Johnston, Fred Merkle, Wilbur Cooper, Hooks Dauss

I'm sure I overlooked a few others. While these players aren't all HOFers, many of them could spark some interesting conversation. If it looks like we're spinning our wheels, we could aleady go biannual, but IMO there's enough players to warrant discussion to keep this annual. We may not elect anyone for several years or we may elect a few clunkers, but either way, we'd get a better insight into a decade that's been largely skipped over by many of us.

[Freakshow]

Looking ahead, these are some of the guys who show up in HOF conversations from 1923-1931 (1918-1926):

1923--Frank Schulte, Bobby Wallace
1924--Hal Chase, Sherry Magee, Red Ames, Terry Turner
1925--Ray Chapman, Gavvy Cravath, Larry Doyle, Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, Eddie Cicotte, Claude Hendrix
1926--Ed Konetchy, Duffy Lewis, Hippo Vaughn
1927--Frank Baker, Art Fletcher, Clyde Milan, Smoky Joe Wood
1928--Donnie Bush, Tilly Walker, Fred Toney
1929--Jake Daubert, Larry Gardner, Del Pratt, Jeff Pfeffer
1930--George J. Burns, Max Flack, Harry Hooper, Bobby Veach, Rube Marquard
1931--Jimmy Johnston, Fred Merkle, Wilbur Cooper, Hooks Dauss

I removed Leach and Bender, since they're eligible in 1922, and Donovan who's up in 1921. How many BBFHOF members are here? Six, three of whom (Wallace, Doyle, Cooper) were not among the first 227 players elected. So again, three strong candidates in nine years.

[BlueBlood]

1. Bresnahan - That OPS+ is phenomenal for a catcher.

2. Childs - Has been the best eligible infielder for many, many rounds

3. Jennings - Peak that is too great to ignore for an SS

4. Joss - Strong enough start that I'm still going to allow the "what if?" question to help his candidacy

5. Kelley - Only other outfielder we need. I think that overall (his peak/career) make him the most well rounded out of the pool of outfielders we've elected recently & Jimmy Ryan

[jjpm74]

The White Sox situation is still very hazy. The rumors are too terrible to believe - would a team really throw the World Series?

It's much more difficult to give Chase and Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, especially Chase. There are a lot of rumors surrounding Chase's conduct over the years.

At our next meeting, we all need to sit down to discuss the likes of Hal Chase. I don't think that dirty bum should have a chance to win election to our HOF. Players should be held to a higher standard on and off the field and I wouldn't be surprised if that bum tried to bribe some of our voters to get elected if he saw an angle to make some money off it.

[dgarza]

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Mike Donlin
Hugh Jennings
Addie Joss
Joe Kelley
John McGraw
Jimmy Ryan


1. Addie Joss
2. Joe Kelley
3. Jimmy Ryan
4. Mike Donlin
5. John McGraw
6. Cupid Childs
7. Hugh Jennings
8. Roger Bresnahan
9. Frank Chance

[henrich]

1. Cross
2. kelley
3. Long
4. Ryan

[Cowtipper]

My ballot:
Childs
Cross
Donlin
Griffith
Joss
Kelley
Ryan

Guys that should be in the Hall of Fame, but not just for their playing credentials:

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
John McGraw

[AG2004]

Finally, and this is a most troubling issue, stories of gambling infecting our national game are emerging with alarming frequency. Most notably, a Grand Jury has convened in Chicago to investigate the conduct of several White Sox players in last year's World Series (I told you guys they seemed off). Even the great Joe Jackson and Eddie Cicotte, players that we would likely be honoring one day, have been implicated. Then there are also the many rumors surrounding Hal Chase and to a lesser extent, Heinie Zimmerman. With Chase in particular, it seems we might have had a great player that sought to undermine the integrity of the game on multiple occasions and possibly corrupting a number of others (including umpires) in the process.

The question is, what should we do about this, if anything? I say depending on the evidence that emerges and decisions made by the league presidents and/or a court of law, players that are culpable of manipulating outcomes of games should be removed from consideration here. Honoring those players is not a precedent I want to set.


We have already set a precedent on this issue. George Hall had played in the major leagues from 1871 to 1877, meeting the seven-year eligibility requirement for the initial ballot. His lifetime OPS+ was 142, which would have been enough justification for placing him on the list. However, Hall was kept off of the initial ballot, as he had been banned from base ball for throwing Louisville games during the 1877 season.

Hall is still alive, and he would have every reason to complain of unfair treatment if someone like Hal Chase were to appear on a future ballot. I suggest we honor the precedent we set for Hall, and prohibit players banned from the game from eligibility for the Hall of Fame.

[TheSlaff]

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Addie Joss
Joe Kelley
Herman Long
John McGraw
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard

[NineWorldSeries]

Griffith
Jennings
Joss
Kelley
McGraw

[philkid3]

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Hughie Jennings
Joe Kelley
Herman Long
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard


I'm not questioning having Sheckard on the list anymore. even with low support, he's probably now here to stay.

I was not in favor of Willis, and he was in the back of my "maybes" queue. As a result of his election, I'm going to be considering whether or not to look at him as part of the standard I should be voting for or if I should look at him as someone I didn't agree with and just ignore his election. It's not that I have a problem with his election, but my ballots may be getting larger as a result.

[philkid3]

Paul and JJ, can you tell me more about Bailey? On paper, his resume stood out to me enough to put him on my maybes list, and then I saw you two voting for him.

[jjpm74]

Paul and JJ, can you tell me more about Bailey? On paper, his resume stood out to me enough to put him on my maybes list, and then I saw you two voting for him.

With the exception of Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins and Ezra Sutton, Bill Bradley was the best third baseman of the first almost 100 years of baseball defensively and was an offensive star (albeit for a short time).

[BlueBlood]

Kelley's assured induction this time after weirdly falling down the latter about 2/3 of the way in last time. Childs looks to have gained an extra push thanks to it being his last year of eligibility...guess we'll have to wait and see if it holds or not.

[Brooklyn]

Addie Joss

[jjpm74]

Kelley's assured induction this time after weirdly falling down the latter about 2/3 of the way in last time. Childs looks to have gained an extra push thanks to it being his last year of eligibility...guess we'll have to wait and see if it holds or not.

Don't worry, he has plenty of time to not get elected again. He was actually at almost 90% at this point last election.

[jjpm74]

Addie Joss

I'd almost rather see someone cast a blank ballot than vote for an outlier who was maybe the 8th best pitcher in his own generation and even before his untimely death had endurance issues. Do you plan on voting for Smoky Joe Wood? He also had an explosive peak and lasted a similar length of time.

[DoubleX]

I'd almost rather see someone cast a blank ballot than vote for an outlier who was maybe the 8th best pitcher in his own generation and even before his untimely death had endurance issues. Do you plan on voting for Smoky Joe Wood? He also had an explosive peak and lasted a similar length of time.

Weren't you voting for Joss until this election? This seems like a pretty strong turnaround. I'd thought he'd just fallen under your line, but now he's an outlier? That seems pretty strong to me. I also don't see the comparison to Joe Wood. Joss pitched 900 more innings than Wood, and that's with not being able to pile on anymore due to death, rather than the injury and ineffectiveness that curtailed Wood's career. Wood also only passed 200 IP twice, whereas Joss passed it 7 times, and 300 twice. I just don't see the comparison, nor understand the very strong turnaround.

[jjpm74]

Weren't you voting for Joss until this election? This seems like a pretty strong turnaround. I'd thought he'd just fallen under your line, but now he's an outlier? That seems pretty strong to me. I also don't see the comparison to Joe Wood. Joss pitched 900 more innings than Wood, and that's with not being able to pile on anymore due to death, rather than the injury and ineffectiveness that curtailed Wood's career. Wood also only passed 200 IP twice, whereas Joss passed it 7 times, and 300 twice. I just don't see the comparison, nor understand the very strong turnaround.

If someone's going to post a 1 person ballot here, I'd like to see a reason why they feel that particular gray area candidate is so much better than all the other gray area candidates on the ballot here. What makes Joss so much better that makes him pop that much even on an off year?

[Brooklyn]

If someone's going to post a 1 person ballot here, I'd like to see a reason why they feel that particular gray area candidate is so much better than all the other gray area candidates on the ballot here. What makes Joss so much better that makes him pop that much even on an off year?

I've addressed this question 2 or 3 times on prior ballots, including post #38 in the 1919 election, where you asked the same question and I answered it. You didn't provide any follow-up critiques so I assumed you were satisfied.

As for the comparison to Smokey Joe, no, I will not be voting for Smokey Joe. Doulbe X mentioned the key reasons, witht he extra innings and Joss's career ended due to death, which I do give him the benefit of the doubt for.

[philkid3]

I'm not feeling to comfortable about Childs hanging on at '75. I may be more of a peak freak than some here, but I've voted for him his entire tenure on the ballot and was really hoping he could get in on his last chance.

[DoubleX]

Here's who I have eligible for the next election:

Nick Altrock (Age Rule) - Probably won't be on ballot
Mordecai Brown
Bill Carrigan - Probably won't be on ballot
Bill Donovan (Age Rule)
Red Dooin
Dick Egan (3000 AB Rule) - Probably won't be on ballot
Roy Hartzell - Probably won't be on ballot
Solly Hofman
Miller Huggins
Otto Knabe
Napoleon Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
George Moriarty - Probably won't be on ballot
Nap Rucker
Germany Schaefer (Age Rule)
Fred Snodgrass (3000 AB Rule)
Joe Tinker
Chief Wilson (3000 AB Rule)

[jjpm74]

It looks like you have everyone listed.

[AG2004]

My ballot

Roger Bresnahan
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Clark Griffith
Hughie Jennings
Fielder Jones
Joe Kelley
Herman Long
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Roy Thomas

---

Last year, I predicted that Babe Ruth's home run total would not be close to 29. It wasn't, so I should get credit for having a correct prediction for once.

[Disclaimer: As part of the prediction, I stated that the record of 29 home runs would stand for a long time. It didn't.]

[leecemark]

AG, have you done a Keltner for Fielder Jones? I don't really see the case, but I'll check it out if you have done him. Any of his other supports have anything to offer up in support of him?
--Bresnahan isn't going to make it first ballot, but his 65% debut bodes well for his election. Chance is up to 65% on his second ballot as well. As the best catcher and firstbaseman of the deadball era - and each with some extras to sell - they both appear to be well over our establish line.
--Joe Kelly looks like he'll make it this time. Still perplexed by Ryan's struggles though. I don't see how the VanHaltren/Duffy supporters can justify not voting for Ryan.

[J W]

Hi folks,

Now that you've been going on for a while, I'd like to sign up for the project. My first ballot would be seven players, based on previous elections:

- Cupid Childs
- Clark Griffith
- Hughie Jennings
- Addie Joss
- Joe Kelley
- Herman Long
- Jimmy Ryan

I am going off of other posts here hinting that player-manager merits are not to be considered here. Otherwise, by all means include Frank Chance and John McGraw.

Since I see a much better demarcation between 1st ballot HOFers and non-1st ballot HOFers, I am going to play that game. This is why I tried a similar project a couple years ago-we have an opportunity to see where the line lies. Right now, the line appears to fall between Joe McGinnity and Willie Keeler. Does that look right? Anyway, this explains why Roger Bresnahan did not make my ballot. It was a close call, and he definitely falls between Buck Ewing (1st ballot) and Charlie Bennet in my book.

Also it's nice to see that we have a list of three "perfect" players (Anson, Nichols, Young). I believe in the last go-around it was Brouthers not Anson that scored 100% in 1901. There is no longer an excuse not to give the greatest players a perfect score and I expect to see a couple added to the list in the next two "years".

Lastly, I'd like to ask about Charley Jones -- if there was any discussion before regarding the OFer who was blacklisted from the NL and moved to the AA. I say this based on who else was elected from the 1870s and early 1880s.

[J W]

How do you like that, the poll closed while I was writing the last message. Well, I don't think my ballot changes anything but it would be nice to count it. Glad to see Childs and Kelley elected and I think Jimmy Ryan needs to be the next player stumped.

[Paul Wendt]

I am going off of other posts here hinting that player-manager merits are not to be considered here. Otherwise, by all means include Frank Chance and John McGraw.
That isn't determined by the designer rules (DoubleX, designer). I understand that it is permitted but not required to consider a player's whole career while he is an active player.

In my opinion Frank Chance counts as an active player thru 1911; Fred Clarke also thru 1911; Clark Griffith thru 1906; John McGraw thru 1902. Maybe later in every case; I mean those as "floors". In practice, I include consideration of Chance as captain and manager of the Cubs but not the Yankees or Red Sox; Griffith as captain, manager, and builder of the White Sox and Yankees but not the Reds or Senators; McGraw as captain/manager of the 1899 Orioles and captain, manager, builder, and destroyer of the AL Baltimore Orioles, but not for the Giants.

Since I see a much better demarcation between 1st ballot HOFers and non-1st ballot HOFers, I am going to play that game. This is why I tried a similar project a couple years ago-we have an opportunity to see where the line lies. Right now, the line appears to fall between Joe McGinnity and Willie Keeler. Does that look right?
"See" in the results of our first 19 elections? Maybe a participant or three sees a weakest candidate among those elected on the first ballot and a strongest candidate elected more slowly where the former is stronger than the latter. But it is quite possible that that doesn't work for even a single participant. (FWIW, I voted for Keeler and not McGinnity when they were first eligible, so I never voted for McGinnity.)

Lastly, I'd like to ask about Charley Jones -- if there was any discussion before regarding the OFer who was blacklisted from the NL and moved to the AA. I say this based on who else was elected from the 1870s and early 1880s.
We don't have a lot of discussion here and it can only help if you are willing and able to initiate some of that, in my opinion.
On Charley Jones, not much discussion here. I made some presentation and answered some AG2004 questions, and AG completed a Keltner List, several months ago at the BaseBall-Fever Hall of Fame (unprogressive). Jones expired on the ballot here and he is now eligible for veterans committee consideration --and on the first VC ballot.

[leecemark]

JW, player-maanger credit is definately allowed for a guy like Frank Chance who was a regular player while managing the Cubs to 4 pennants. It would apply to Fred Calrke too, not that he needs it. Its a little more questionable for somebody like McGraw who was pretty much a bit player once he started managing. Clark Griffith probably falls somewhere in between on the player-manager credit scale.

[DoubleX]

I am going off of other posts here hinting that player-manager merits are not to be considered here. Otherwise, by all means include Frank Chance and John McGraw.

They are permitted, but we're primarily considering playing career here. To the extent that a person was a player/manager, you may include that in your evaluation of that person's playing career, but any consideration for managing must end when the playing career essentially ends. For instance, I do give Chance a good deal of credit for what he accomplished as a player/manager, but almost all of McGraw's managerial accomplishments occurred after he was pretty much done as a player. He did not find any success as a manager until he pretty much stopped playing in 1903. So any credit I would give him for being a player/manager does not make up for his short playing career, IMO.

Since I see a much better demarcation between 1st ballot HOFers and non-1st ballot HOFers, I am going to play that game. This is why I tried a similar project a couple years ago-we have an opportunity to see where the line lies. Right now, the line appears to fall between Joe McGinnity and Willie Keeler. Does that look right? Anyway, this explains why Roger Bresnahan did not make my ballot. It was a close call, and he definitely falls between Buck Ewing (1st ballot) and Charlie Bennet in my book.

I don't think most of us are voting with the thought that "this guy isn't a first balloter so I'll wait on him." I think there are some obvious choices and for the rest, it takes some time for people to warm up to them. There's also the fact that our standards were pretty muddled for a long time, but in the last few years it's become fairly clear that we're not extremely discerning. I think ballots have been evolving as we come to better understand our standards.

I also don't think McGinnity/Keeler is a good line. Keeler came up for election in what was a strong and crowded year. It was the last year of the remaining originally eligible players, so they took up a lot of spots on ballots, and the new class was the strongest we'd had in a number of years, consisting of three players we've thus far elected - Waddell, Flick, and Willis, another that's been as close to election as a player can get - Joss, and another that consistently gets pretty strong support - Griffith. Keeler was, however, elected in his 2nd year with 92% support, our last player to be elected with over 90% support, and one of just 11 players to have received 90% support, whereas we've had 20 first balloters. So Keeler appears to be in more select company. Also, in subsequent conversation it has appeared that we don't think quite as highly of McGinnity as his first ballot election might indicate, and that he seems to be regarded among the lower rung of pitchers.

Also it's nice to see that we have a list of three "perfect" players (Anson, Nichols, Young). I believe in the last go-around it was Brouthers not Anson that scored 100% in 1901. There is no longer an excuse not to give the greatest players a perfect score and I expect to see a couple added to the list in the next two "years".

We might have had a few more perfect players if not for some questionable voting by a member who is no longer part of this project. I won't mention names, but let's just say that to him, only Mickey Welch seem to meet his Hall of Fame standards.

Lastly, I'd like to ask about Charley Jones -- if there was any discussion before regarding the OFer who was blacklisted from the NL and moved to the AA. I say this based on who else was elected from the 1870s and early 1880s.

I recall there being some. Honestly, if we were to go back and redo some of those earlier elections, I think Jones would stand a decent chance of election now given how we have a better grasp of our standards. He's currently on the final VC ballot, and I believe he was nominated to be on the ballot by 11 of the 12 voting members.

[J W]

OK; based on the criteria, I will add Frank Chance to the ballot henceforth. McGraw definitely deserves to get in as a contributor foremost.

As to the divide -- Keeler seems to be the best player not elected on the first ballot, or close to it. McGinnity seems to the be worst player elected on the first ballot. So, if the line is blurry (and I'm sure many of us would take Keeler over McGinnity) it is certainly better than Joe DiMaggio or Eddie Mathews vs Lou Brock or Kirby Puckett.

[DoubleX]

OK; based on the criteria, I will add Frank Chance to the ballot henceforth. McGraw definitely deserves to get in as a contributor foremost.

As players, McGraw and Chase are quite players. High peaks, short careers. But Chance had great success as a player/manager, whereas there were really only a couple of years where McGraw was a regular player and a manager, and his teams weren't that successful then.

As to the divide -- Keeler seems to be the best player not elected on the first ballot, or close to it. McGinnity seems to the be worst player elected on the first ballot. So, if the line is blurry (and I'm sure many of us would take Keeler over McGinnity) it is certainly better than Joe DiMaggio or Eddie Mathews vs Lou Brock or Kirby Puckett.

I'm, not sure Keeler is the best non-1st balloter. Deacon White comes most to mind. But it all depends on circumstance. Both White and Keeler were dealing with very crowded ballots, whereas McGinnity had a much weaker ballot, coming up for election the year after the only year we didn't elect anyone. I think had Keeler come up in most any other year, give his 90% plus support, he likely would have been a first balloter. I do agree though that McGinnity is probably the weakest of our 1st balloters. I believe making favorable comparisons to McGinnity is what eventually got Vic Willis elected on his 5th try.