View Full Version : Lau Sr., Extension, and Power V at the POC
Chris O'Leary
09-22-2008, 08:07 PM
The topic of Charley Lau Sr., extension, and the Power V at the point of contact came up in another thread and I think it's an important enough topic that it deserves its own thread.
The point of this thread isn't to attack Charley Lau Sr. I think he was a brilliant man who was ahead of his time. However, I also believe that, like Ted Williams, Charley Lau Sr. got some things wrong in his book, in part due to the limitations of the technology he had to work with. The most important of those things is the concept of extension and the Power V at the point of contact.
While Charley Lau Sr. may not have BELIEVED in making the Power V at the point of contact, many people have INTERPRETED his book as advocating the Power V at the point of contact. That is due to a number of photos and related text in Charley Lau Sr.'s The Art Of Hitting 300 (1980 edition)...
P23. "He will still shift his weight forward to the front leg, bring the bat forward so that it's out in front of him with full arm extension, and have his head down and eyes on the ball at the point of contact."
P53. "Look what happens when you stand to close to the plate. A good level swing puts your hands right in the strike zone while the meat of the bat ends up over the opposite batter's box." Ignoring the mistaken notion of the level swing, the thing to notice about this picture...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Miscellaneous/LauBookScan001_1.jpg
...is how George Brett is making the Power V at the point of contact.
P54. "Ideally, you should stand in a spot that will allow you to fully extend your arms when you swing." This syncs up with the right picture on the bottom of page 54...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Miscellaneous/LauBookScan002_1.jpg
...and the pictures on page 96 where George Brett is in the Power V position at the point of contact.
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Miscellaneous/LauBookScan004_1.jpg
P79. He shows a picture of George Brett swinging level to the ground and extended and making the Power V.
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Miscellaneous/LauBookScan003_1.jpg
To make it clear to the reader what they should take away from this picture, Charley Sr. writes "Notice that only now, at the 'moment of contact'..." which makes it clear that he means that this (extended and making the Power V) is what a batter should look like at the POC.
Finally, based on the words that accompany this picture of Al Kaline on page 107...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Miscellaneous/LauBookScan005_1.jpg
...which I think shows a pretty much perfect position at the point of contact, you can see from Charley Lau Sr.'s words why people think he advocated extension and the Power V at the point of contact. About this photo, Charley Lau Sr. says on page 106...
For this to be a good swing, Al would have had to hit the ball more out in front of the plate. As it is, I think he may have been fooled a bit on the pitch. When he realized the ball was low and in, he had to go down to get it. And to do that he had to pull his left arm in, making it impossible to get full extension.
Deemax
09-23-2008, 05:52 AM
Chris,
Can you go into what the disadvantages are of teaching a "power V"?
I would like to know why you continue to harp on this (Lau's) terminology? IMO Lau has some great cues to go off of. I dont carbon copy what he teaches, but I have learned things that work for me as a coach based on his work, and the type of hitter Im working with.
Teaching a "power V" CAN be benifical to a particular hitter. Its advantageous to reach full extension. Whats the big deal with someone teaching it?
Chris O'Leary
09-23-2008, 06:56 AM
Can you go into what the disadvantages are of teaching a "power V"?
As HG suggested, teaching the "Power V" AT THE POINT OF CONTACT reduces a hitter's adjustability.
I would like to know why you continue to harp on this (Lau's) terminology?
I think we've established that the Power V is NOT Lau's terminology. Maybe it's Tom Emanski's (or Bob Cluck's). However, the fact remains that this is how people are INTERPRETING what they see in Lau Sr.'s book and it's ruining people's swings (including my own).
IMO Lau has some great cues to go off of. I dont carbon copy what he teaches, but I have learned things that work for me as a coach based on his work, and the type of hitter Im working with.
Both Lau Sr. and Lau Jr. have a lot that's very good. However, this concept of extension at the point of contact has taken on a life of it's own and is ruining a lot of swings.
Teaching a "power V" CAN be benifical to a particular hitter. Its advantageous to reach full extension. Whats the big deal with someone teaching it?
I think the Power V and extension after contact is a no-teach. If you have a good swing upstream, then you will end up extending into the Power V after the Point Of Contact.
However, if you extend into the Power V too soon you will...
1. Slow down your swing.
2. Create a huge hole in your swing over the inside 1/2 of the plate.
Chris O'Leary
09-23-2008, 06:57 AM
Can you go into what the disadvantages are of teaching a "power V"?
Just to be completely clear, the problem isn't teaching the Power V.
Instead, the problem is teaching the Power V AT THE POINT OF CONTACT.
Chris,
when working off a tee where would you place the tee to develop a point of contact. Please define loacation for inside, middle, and outside parts of the plate.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
09-23-2008, 01:33 PM
when working off a tee where would you place the tee to develop a point of contact. Please define loacation for inside, middle, and outside parts of the plate.
For a middle pitch the tee would be at the front heel. An inside pitch would be a couple of inches forward of that point and an outside pitch would be a couple of inches rearward of that point.
Chris O'Leary
09-23-2008, 01:47 PM
For a middle pitch the tee would be at the front heel. An inside pitch would be a couple of inches forward of that point and an outside pitch would be a couple of inches rearward of that point.
I also really don't teach my guys to hit balls at a certain depth, I just teach them to go with the pitch. I teach them to to pull inside pitches, to hit pitches over the middle of the zone back up the middle, and to go the opposite way with the outside pitch. That way they generally hit the ball at the proper depth for them.
azmatsfan
09-24-2008, 05:56 AM
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1985/10/10/001289586.jpg
It appears George Brett didn't even hit like George Brett. Although Brett did extend his arms shortly after contact, his left arm is far from extended at the point of contact. The photos from the book are awful and in no way reflect Brett's actual swing.
(Sorry for the large photo. I don't know how to resize it.)
IMO hitters most of the time aren't the best people to define the swing. This could be the case with Brett. When ask to desribe the mechanics this is what you get. I hit better when I just let it go and do what I do. This picture of Brett is how he swings the bat.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 06:35 AM
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1985/10/10/001289586.jpg
It appears George Brett didn't even hit like George Brett. Although Brett did extend his arms shortly after contact, his left arm is far from extended at the point of contact. The photos from the book are awful and in no way reflect Brett's actual swing.
(Sorry for the large photo. I don't know how to resize it.)
Good photo.
The posed photos in Lau Sr.'s book represent how someone (Lau or Brett) THOUGHT Brett swung the bat.
There are live-action photos in the book of Brett's swing that are quite different than the posed photos.
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 06:37 AM
IMO hitters most of the time aren't the best people to define the swing. This could be the case with Brett. When ask to desribe the mechanics this is what you get. I hit better when I just let it go and do what I do. This picture of Brett is how he swings the bat.
I agree.
We should teach people to swing like MLers ACTUALLY swing, not how they SAY they swing.
Tony Gwynn seems to be another guy who has some disconnect between perception and reality, which is surprising given that he used a lot of video. The problem must have been either blurring or confusing cause and effect.
kylebee
09-24-2008, 07:32 AM
Beautiful photo, and great timing.
MLB players are usually the worst people to ask about how they actually do things. See, for example, Ryan Howard's explanation of his swing (very linear approach, or so he says).
Today is very busy (yesterday was 7:00-10:00) so I can only write a bit. But I'm glad Chris broke this out. I've wanted to write a dissertation on Charley Lau Sr for some time now on BBF, and this will be a good vehicle for doing so over the course of many posts.
I've already responded to Chris' points on that other thread, but will do so again next post. Before doing so, however, I wanted to put into context what Lau Sr was trying to do in writing this book starting more than 30 years ago. A lot of people make grand pronouncements based on reading a book or watching a video and concluding something is true based on that limited knowledge set. This is a classic example, where people who knew and saw Charley teach something entirely differently than the way someone read the book. Any parent or new person need to be extremely cautious before making judgements on someone like a Lau or Williams or other experts. Lau was in the game 30+ years before his early death due to colon cancer, and is universally recognized as one of the greatest hitting coaches of all time (even if his theories are still controversial to this day, something I hope to address in this thread). It should be logical to assume that if you as a new person see some obvious flaw, then chances are you are misunderstanding something the expert is telling you. This is certainly not always true, as even experts can be wrong, but one should do an awful lot of confirming research before jumping to contrary conclusions.
Lau Sr played in the mid-50's through the mid-60's for 6 different clubs and had an indifferent major league career with a 0.255 lifetime average and only 16 home runs in 11 seasons. His career overlapped with of course the great Ted Williams, universally recognized at that time as the greatest hitter in the game and possibly of all time. Even Lau Sr recognized him as the greatest hitter he ever saw, something to keep in mind as you keep Lau's criticisms in mind.
Lau Sr felt that Williams' batting style was very bad for the game. Williams was of course the prototypical pull hitter, so much so that the "Williams shift" with 3 guys on the right hand side of the infield will forever be remembered along with Williams as a testament to his pull hitting nature. Williams insistence that the arc of the bat was up is of course correct (something Lau Sr admitted in the Art of Hitting 0.300), but Lau felt that this promoted uppercut hitting. Williams talked about keeping the weight back, and Lau felt that this promoted backfoot hitting. His famous "wrist snap" Charley felt led to early rollover wrist rollover in hitters less capable than Williams.
In Charley's view, Williams' success was due to his personal ability and that his hitting philosophy hurt the game. He felt the meltdown of hitting stats in the 60's and early 70's - well before Lau had any influence by the way - was due to lesser athletes trying to mimic Williams. I've got a few nice clips of old timers I will post that illustrates what Lau was referring to. In contrast, he was a teammate of the great Henry Aaron among others and he saw something entirely differently than what he thought Williams was advocating. Thus, his hitting philosophies were born. Of course one could argue - correctly by the way - that Williams didn't advocate some or any of these items in the way Lau interpreted them, but lessor hitters using these Williams cues incorrectly is what Lau actually saw in practice. Sound familiar around here? Misintepreted cues couldn't happen, could they?:)
In regards to this particular thread, here is the point to keep in mind. Lau felt that hitting to all fields was important, so much so that it is of course one of his hitting absolutes. He absolutely believed that you cannot do this by crowding the plate as many in the pull hitting school still believe, like Epstein. He thus advocated getting off the plate somewhat, enough so the bat can cover the entire plate. That's all that Chris' pictures show. Pg 53 shows that you shouldn't crowd the plate, pg 54 shows being more off the plate but still getting plate coverage. That's the section of the book Chris took those pictures from. He's trying to illustrate plate coverage. Brett is NOT hitting a ball. How else is one supposed to illustrate plate coverage? If you or I were asked by our coach to show plate coverage, wouldn't we do it like Brett did? Of course we would.
Last point on extension for this morning to again put into context what Lau is trying to say. In hitting to all fields, a Lau absolute, if you're not going to crowd the plate, how do you hit the outside pitch? In this case the arms have to be more extended than they would on a inside pitch. A lot of what Lau is saying is based on that principle. For the pull hitting guys who crowd the plate. this isn't necessarily the case. So keep that in mind when you read Lau.
Back tonight (maybe).
CoachB25
09-24-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm trying to slow down my posting on internet sites but did want to comment here. Asmatsfan, be careful! If some old timers will remember, a video of one of Brett's swings where he was attempting to hit a ball out of a park off of a Tee was posted here about 2 years ago and I commented on how the linear v rotational argument became cloudy when Brett showed so much rotational force in his swing. Wow was I attacked. To sum up one attack, it went something to the effect of no wonder I'm a nobody high school coach. Great picture and thanks for it.
hellborn
09-24-2008, 10:51 AM
Today is very busy (yesterday was 7:00-10:00) so I can only write a bit. But I'm glad Chris broke this out. I've wanted to write a dissertation on Charley Lau Sr for some time now on BBF, and this will be a good vehicle for doing so over the course of many posts.
... His famous "wrist snap" Charley felt led to early rollover wrist rollover in hitters less capable than Williams.
...
JJA, I liked your post, read it carefully despite its length, and look forward to you posting more.
But, I feel that I must comment on the "wrist snap". This may have been something that people attributed to Ted, but I don't think that he ever advocated snapping the wrists into contact. He compared the baseball swing to chopping a tree down with an axe...I doubt that anybody would snap their wrists into a tree for very long!! The photos from "The Science of Hitting" all show Ted with "unrolled" wrists at contact, and I believe that he made a point of mentioning that the wrists rolled over AFTER contact (as his had to, due to his preference for hanging onto the bat).
Probably a minor quibble, but I think that you're wrong on that point. If you think I'm wrong about that, please show me why!
:cap:
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 11:05 AM
A lot of people make grand pronouncements based on reading a book or watching a video and concluding something is true based on that limited knowledge set. This is a classic example, where people who knew and saw Charley teach something entirely differently than the way someone read the book.
I will be the first to acknowledge that the Power V isn't Charley Lau Sr's term. It likely is a term coined by someone who was trying to teach what he saw in the pictures in Lau Sr's book.
Pg 53 shows that you shouldn't crowd the plate, pg 54 shows being more off the plate but still getting plate coverage. That's the section of the book Chris took those pictures from. He's trying to illustrate plate coverage. Brett is NOT hitting a ball. How else is one supposed to illustrate plate coverage?
The right way.
You going to have to work hard to find any major league hitter who looks like that at the POC.
If you or I were asked by our coach to show plate coverage, wouldn't we do it like Brett did? Of course we would.
My students, yes.
Not me because I know better.
Last point on extension for this morning to again put into context what Lau is trying to say. In hitting to all fields, a Lau absolute, if you're not going to crowd the plate, how do you hit the outside pitch?
You DO have to extend to hit the outside pitch, but that's why it's hard to hit the outside pitch for power.
What Barry Bonds did by crowding the plate was turn everything into an inside pitch so he could put his best swing on as many pitches as possible.
Does anyone have any video of Brett?
EL,
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Does anyone have any video of Brett?
I captured some last night, but it's a grainy, CF view so I don't know if it will add much of value.
What we need is a 3B view.
hellborn
09-24-2008, 12:28 PM
...
What Barry Bonds did by crowding the plate was turn everything into an inside pitch so he could put his best swing on as many pitches as possible.
Giambi does the same thing, and gets the extra benefit of lots of cheap HBPs by sticking his elbow in front of inside breaking balls, even ones that are over the plate. The umps are supposed to call strikes on pitches that hit batters in the strike zone, but they never do.
One of the amazing things about Splinter was his ability to pull the outside pitch without being a plate hugger...he was certainly tall, did he have unusually long arms, too??
:confused:
Bucketdad
09-24-2008, 12:41 PM
It's small and grainy.
It mostly supports what O'leary has been telling you guys.
No power V at contact.
His swing reminds me of Mauer's swing.
BD
wogdoggy
09-24-2008, 12:48 PM
It's small and grainy.
It mostly supports what O'leary has been telling you guys.
No power V at contact.
His swing reminds me of Mauer's swing.
BD
I see differently I see contact a split second before v...but i'll take that over alligator arms.
thats the beauty of the hanson principle..
Mark H
09-24-2008, 12:55 PM
Looking at it frame by frame the top hand elbow is only slightly past 90 degrees at contact.
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 01:01 PM
It's small and grainy.
It mostly supports what O'leary has been telling you guys.
No power V at contact.
His swing reminds me of Mauer's swing.
BD
Ask and ye shall receive.
Thanks.
Here's a blown-up, cleaned-up, stop-frame version...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Videos/Video_Hitting_GeorgeBrett_3B_High_001.gif
I see the POC in frame 10 with a pretty standard 90 degree (ish) bend in the back elbow.
I see full extension and Power V in frame 14 or 15.
wogdoggy
09-24-2008, 01:04 PM
heres a very sought after instructor in our area
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urwTwicBkwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lt0c7P1H6w
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 01:09 PM
heres a very sought after instructor in our area
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urwTwicBkwY
As is typical, he's confusing cause and effect.
The best hitters extend after the POC because their bats are moving faster at the POC which makes them weigh more after the POC which pulls them out into extension.
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 01:13 PM
Here are some more stills of George Brett, including a scaled-down version of the one above.
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/GeorgeBrett_001.jpg
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/GeorgeBrett_002.jpg
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/GeorgeBrett_003.jpg
I think it's interesting that the first photo is like the bat on the side of the delt drill but with the back elbow up rather than down (which is why I do this drill with the back elbow up and not down).
Bucketdad
09-24-2008, 01:22 PM
The best hitters extend after the POC because their bats are moving faster at the POC which makes them weigh more after the POC which pulls them out into extension.
I'm by know means a hitting expert, but I know what I see. From my observations , I think this is true of nearly all elite hitters (with a few notable exception like Williams, and a low outside ptich driven to the opposite field)
BD
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 01:38 PM
heres a very sought after instructor in our area
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lt0c7P1H6w
This is so bad it's funny.
Slow pitch isn't baseball because of the different velocities and the fact that most pitches are pretty much the same. As a result, lessons don't translate well between the two like they do from fast pitch to baseball. For instance, adjustability is less of a requirement in slow pitch, so you can optimize your swing in some ways that you can't in baseball.
Also, he hits the ball 1.5 feet out in front of the plate because that's where his front heel is.
Mark H
09-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Watched about half of it. He's confusing arm extension with timing the whip. He may produce good hitters but they aren't doing what he says to do. See this all the time in both pitching and hitting. Physically intuitive athletes take cues and figure out something good to do with them. Seems to me instructors who take money should be the first ones to follow the rule of "Always compare anything anyone, including you and I, says about hitting to slow motion video of the best in the world". Doesn't mean you still won't do something like Richard but it gives you a better chance at understanding reality.
wogdoggy
09-24-2008, 03:05 PM
This is so bad it's funny.
Slow pitch isn't baseball because of the different velocities and the fact that most pitches are pretty much the same. As a result, lessons don't translate well between the two like they do from fast pitch to baseball. For instance, adjustability is less of a requirement in slow pitch, so you can optimize your swing in some ways that you can't in baseball.
Also, he hits the ball 1.5 feet out in front of the plate because that's where his front heel is.
chris dont be silly,of corse theres a difference but thats what gives you the ability to power the ball ,,arm extension,,players want to get there arms extended why is that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urwTwicBkwY
gee sounds like hes promoting disconnection? huh?
theres the extra 40 feet chris
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 03:09 PM
chris dont be silly,of corse theres a difference but thats what gives you the ability to power the ball ,,arm extension,,players want to get there arms extended why is that?
Because...
1. They are confusing cause and effect (which is common).
2. They are encouraged to do so by the incessant harping on extension by major league baseball commentators.
Lots of people believed in the power of rain dances, but that doesn't mean they were right.
wogdoggy
09-24-2008, 03:20 PM
Because...
1. They are confusing cause and effect (which is common).
2. They are encouraged to do so by the incessant harping on extension by major league baseball commentators.
Lots of people believed in the power of rain dances, but that doesn't mean they were right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ZL0JNz_FU&feature=related
listen between 40 seconds and 55 seconds..is he promoting dis connection?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzwnAwfsr3g&feature=related
also chris wanted your opinion on this pitching advice?
wogdoggy
09-24-2008, 04:26 PM
Because...
1. They are confusing cause and effect (which is common).
2. They are encouraged to do so by the incessant harping on extension by major league baseball commentators.
Lots of people believed in the power of rain dances, but that doesn't mean they were right.
incessant maybe because it works..commentators or x pro commentators that knows what it takes to go to the next level..
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 06:23 PM
incessant maybe because it works..commentators or x pro commentators that knows what it takes to go to the next level..
Believe what you want.
I have heard them say lots of stupid stuff.
IMO, when you focus on extension you're more likely to ensure disconnection than a good swing.
Chris O'Leary
09-24-2008, 06:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ZL0JNz_FU&feature=related
listen between 40 seconds and 55 seconds..is he promoting dis connection?
No, he's promoting keeping the eye on the ball, which is a good goal but isn't actually possible.
The extension stuff isn't bad at this moment b/c it's after the POC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzwnAwfsr3g&feature=related
also chris wanted your opinion on this pitching advice?
As long as a pitcher isn't doing something crazy, I really don't care if the foot's on the ground or not. Some pros have it on the ground at the release point and some don't.
I don't think it matters, within reason.
It's small and grainy.
It mostly supports what O'leary has been telling you guys.
No power V at contact.
His swing reminds me of Mauer's swing.
BD
Bucketdad,
Thanks very much for the clip.
EL,
LAball
09-25-2008, 12:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ZL0JNz_FU&feature=related
Good comments by the coach, but they were doing soft toss. Id like to see it in full speed or almost, even with a machine pitching.
Bucketdad
09-25-2008, 06:46 AM
Bucketdad,
Thanks very much for the clip.
EL,
No problem.
I fairly sure I got that clip from here (Baseballfever) a while ago.
I save all the clips I can get my hands on.
Baseball fever is a great source for clips.
I have a folder with over 300 clips of MLB and fastpitch swings.
That's the only Brett clip I have though.
Thanks to all who have shared their clips with the rest of us.
BD
Jake Patterson
09-25-2008, 06:59 AM
Bucketdad,
Thanks very much for the clip.
EL,
Which clip???
It appears George Brett didn't even hit like George Brett. Although Brett did extend his arms shortly after contact, his left arm is far from extended at the point of contact. The photos from the book are awful and in no way reflect Brett's actual swing.
The sad thing about it is that people actually tried to emulate what they saw in the book. I read it in the 80s and tried to hit like that and now 20 years later it finally dawned on me that the theories on hitting have changed and that everything I did back then was wrong. Now in my 40s, I have to rebuild my swing...
hellborn
09-25-2008, 07:14 AM
The sad thing about it is that people actually tried to emulate what they saw in the book. I read it in the 80s and tried to hit like that and now 20 years later it finally dawned on me that the theories on hitting have changed and that everything I did back then was wrong. Now in my 40s, I have to rebuild my swing...
That Mike Schmidt book had a similar effect on me...start with the hands way back and high, sweep them forward as you plant on an angled front leg. I had already read Williams and ended up totally rejecting Schmidt, but he messed up parts of my NABA and GSBL seasons.
Which clip???
the Brett clip from page 1 of this thread.
EL,
Chris O'Leary
09-25-2008, 09:39 AM
The sad thing about it is that people actually tried to emulate what they saw in the book. I read it in the 80s and tried to hit like that and now 20 years later it finally dawned on me that the theories on hitting have changed and that everything I did back then was wrong. Now in my 40s, I have to rebuild my swing...
I'm glad I wasn't the only person to do this (or have it done to me).
I'm not sure why people have such a hard time accepting that people will try to copy what they see a great hitter like George Brett doing.
It's a lesson learned for every instructor or coach. People will pay attention to everything, so you can't take anything for granted.
nt - since gif doesn't load.
dannyboy
09-27-2008, 07:30 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/monkeywrench.jpg
Chris O'Leary
09-27-2008, 10:29 AM
Dannyboy (et al), you're clearly not understanding the subtlety of this.
Talking to Charley Lau Jr. and Hiddengem helped open my eyes on this, and I hope I can help you get this.
First, nobody is saying that hitters don't extend after the Point Of Contact, which is what Brett is doing in the photo above. Second, nobody (at least not me or I think Mark H) is saying that hitters don't occasionally extend to go get a pitch.
As in the photo below of Albert Pujols hitting a home run, they sometimes do it to hit the outside pitch (e.g. if they get fooled by a slider or if they have to protect the plate) and/or if they get fooled by an off-speed pitch (in which case they also lunge).
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2006_HomeRun_026.jpg
However, if Albert Pujols was to extend early on EVERY pitch, he would not have been able to hit this pitch for a home run.
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/Hitters/AlbertPujols/AlbertPujols_2008_HomeRun_002.jpg
Instead, he would hit it off of his hands or at best the handle of the bat.
IOW, extending early is an adjustment tactic that hitters sometimes have to employ to hit SOME pitches (generally outside), but not every pitch.
Two more from Brett:
1983 - unballanced stance as form of preloading
http://home.arcor.de/neric/Other/83%20Royals-Yankees_split001a1.gif
1980 - full weight shift against a stiff front leg + rather low/flat finish
http://home.arcor.de/neric/Other/80WS%20game6a.gif
Quiz,
do you have the entire swing on the Brett 1983 clip?
EL,
dominik
10-13-2008, 07:56 AM
I try to stay connected for as long as possible. If the ball is inside, I stay connected till contact. If it's outside I may do a little bit extension to get to the ball, but only in the last moment. I try to do the most with tilt and stay connected.
If you extend early you can not use a little extension for correction if the pitch is missread, because you have channelled the extension in a predetermined direction early in the swing in order to get power.
I was a extension hitter before, because I was told by my coaches. My swing always sucked and I had problems with a long swing and the arms flying away. I think this is because a linear hand path creates a centrifugal force, because there is an angle between the movements of the shoulders(rotating inwards and the hands going straight forward).
I think some late extension to do the fine tuning can be OK, but it has to be very late. The later it is the more chance for adjusting you have.
When I found the rotaional hitting pages from Chris and Epstein this year my hitting improved very much. I now try to tuck the back albow in and rotate the hands with the back shoulder. My swing is now shorter and harder.
I even hit my first HR. Thanks guys!
Of course after the contact the arms extend. From a physics standpoint this is clear. The rotational momentum decreases at contact because the shouldera have turned most of their way. This means the centripetal(inward) force of the rotation declines and the centrifugal force of the bat causes the bat to move forward straight.
THis is like Hammer throwing: The Hammer is accelerated on a circular path and when it's released the hammer will fly in a straight line.
baseballdad
10-13-2008, 08:00 AM
The two Brett clips on the previous page is a great comparison between what you see in real time vs. stop frame. It is amazing how much stop frame analysis can reveal about the swing compared to seeing it at full speed. I think alot of swing concepts can be attributed to real time swing analysis (live and real time video) fooling the viewer's eyes than anything else. No wonder the Hansen principle and video analysis is has only recently come into its own and is so important.
Quiz,
do you have the entire swing on the Brett 1983 clip?
EL,
I assume you want to see it from this camera angle, but unfortunately that is the end of the sequence and the rest of the swing was shown from behind the pitcher.