To all the pitching mechanic gurus..

[baseballplaya92]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest

[Jake Patterson]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest
I think you need to research this more.

[Chris O'Leary]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest

I think there's some truth to this.

In my experience, something like 80 to 90 percent of kids have solid, safe pitching mechanics.

It's usually their pitching coaches and instructors who teach them problematic mechanics.

[Quiz]

I am not a pitching guru, but I can offer some advice nevertheless. If you watch a player throwing long-toss and feeling unobserved, you can pretty much see his natural throwing motion. Regardless what you do with him later on, don't go too far away from that basic line.

[baseballplaya92]

From the time they are very little all some of them do is PLAY BASEBALL.. you figure that over 10 years of throwing throwing throwing as thier developing you brain can pretty much figure out the best most efficient way for your body to throw the ball well

[Shake Zula]

Hmmm I don't know

From my personal experience, I never even thought about playing baseball until I was 13. After getting into a rec team, I just threw with my brother on the backyard everyday. What I did was, I just imitated what I think was the delivery shown in the MLB games or the animated deliveries from MVP Baseball series. I tell you what, I had a bad throwing mechanics. I didn't know the concept of relaxing my arm during the throw and tried to squeezed the everloving **** out of the ball and pretty much muscled every pitch, I also was just pushing the ball forward with very long arm action (eventually, I studied the throwing video of Esteban Loaiza and realized taht I had to bend my arm somehow on the high cocked position)--therefore, I was getting a sore arm a lot of times. In last year, I came upon several instructions under SETPRO's eBook and Dr. Bagonzi's pithing book--I feel that I have much better mechanics and less pain on arm.

That's my story

[Dirtberry]

I would suspect that the fathers of Caribbean youth have just as much input as we do and maybe more.

If this “Naturalness” is true, then what Dr.Marshall says about how a 2 year old’s throws is absolutely correct. When they throw overhead without being taught their elbow will come with their shoulder and hips at the same time pushing off the glove side leg that all fathers immediately try to change because they do not mimic the traditional throw, they actually throw off of center mass because of their head size relationship.

[korp]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest
I don't completely disagree with this statement that they are more about playing and doing what works ...... but you forget the key facts. Major League teams send coaches and scouts to these countries to work with players. A player from these countries can be signed at the age of either 16 or 14 I can remember the age but its one of those two. ESPN has shown famous coaches/players being down there helping those kids and the best thing is they can play all day long and don't have to worry much about school .... because baseball is school there.

[bigredmachine#1]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest

I agree...this was casually discussed about at a Wolforth pitching boot camp. Those kids from DR, PR, etc...play year round with no instructions from guru's. They get strong by practicing, playing and manual labor. No private conditioning coaches, pitching coaches, hitting coaches or mental coaches. They don't have dads measuring stride length, ball speed, bat exit speed, etc, etc, etc...They don't look robotic, mechanized...vanilla.

They just throw the crap out of the ball and hit the crap out of the ball. And they're showing up on minor and major league rosters faster than any other cultural group.

[Chris O'Leary]

When they throw overhead without being taught their elbow will come with their shoulder and hips at the same time pushing off the glove side leg that all fathers immediately try to change because they do not mimic the traditional throw, they actually throw off of center mass because of their head size relationship.

Rotating the hips with the shoulders is an immature, and highly inefficient, throwing pattern that most kids grow out of to one degree or another without having to be taught (because you can't get much on your throws).

[azmatsfan]

I would suspect that the fathers of Caribbean youth have just as much input as we do and maybe more.

If this “Naturalness” is true, then what Dr.Marshall says about how a 2 year old’s throws is absolutely correct. When they throw overhead without being taught their elbow will come with their shoulder and hips at the same time pushing off the glove side leg that all fathers immediately try to change because they do not mimic the traditional throw, they actually throw off of center mass because of their head size relationship.

Maybe players should run like a 2-year-old too.

[Chris O'Leary]

Maybe players should run like a 2-year-old too.

Or they should "throw like a girl."

[TG Coach]

Or they should "throw like a girl."

My daughter doesn't throw like a girl. She throws like an athlete.

[Chris O'Leary]

My daughter doesn't throw like a girl. She throws like an athlete.

That's why I put it in quotes.

It's not universally accurate, but everyone knows what it means.

[Deemax]

Maybe players should run like a 2-year-old too.

:rofl:........

[Dirtberry]

Chris,

“Rotating the hips with the shoulders is immature”

That’s a mouth full, you might want to revisit this statement and think about how most adults do it when they make a powerful and perfect Crowhop throw from the outfield?
I consider the perfect Crowhop throws catch timing to be performed just as the glove side leg leaves the ground and the ball arm leg is forward still in the air. When you perform this do or die maneuver it gets the ball away as fast and powerfully as possible. To perform this throw you must drive of off of both legs and rotate the shoulders and hips together with the hips just ahead of the shoulders while the arm travels forearm inside of vertical at center mass. This throw has many of the Marshall tenets used in his powerful pitching mechanics.

“highly inefficient throwing pattern”

This is how the competitive Badminton overhead pronated smash is performed, the fastest ballistic hand speed athletic activity.

This is how Javelin throwers perform their throws.

“most kids grow out of to one degree or another without having to be taught”

Kids who play ball 99% of the time have dads who played ball and I guarantee they do not leave them alone. Why do you keep coming up with this non-sense?
I think I know why, maybe I’ll take a stab at it in another post.

“(because you can't get much on your throws).”

More BS, you give Bam Bam a pearl and stand in front of him and see if you can take a dace before popping off.

I’d sure like to see you stand in on any of my HS age kids that throw this way and then hear what you have to say.

Azmatsfan,

“Maybe players should run like a 2-year-old too.”

Lets look for a positive here, if you found the fastest 2 year olds in the world, most track kinesiologists would not pass up the opportunity to study them.

Deemax,

Stop! You’ll go bald even on the sides of your head!

[Deemax]

This is how Javelin throwers perform their throws.

So. Are Javelin throwers the golden standard for throwing excellence and velocity?


The best javelin thrower in the world was 80-85 in a tryout while being wild. Reportedly the Braves were impressed....:rolleyes:
http://108mag.typepad.com/the_southpaw/2006/09/the_braves_and_.html

[Chris O'Leary]

I consider the perfect Crowhop throws catch timing to be performed just as the glove side leg leaves the ground and the ball arm leg is forward still in the air. When you perform this do or die maneuver it gets the ball away as fast and powerfully as possible. To perform this throw you must drive of off of both legs and rotate the shoulders and hips together with the hips just ahead of the shoulders while the arm travels forearm inside of vertical at center mass. This throw has many of the Marshall tenets used in his powerful pitching mechanics.

I have video of Ichiro rotating his hips 90 degrees ahead of his shoulder on a crow hop throw from the outfield (which is why he's able to throw so hard).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching__Example_CrowHop_Ichiro_001.gif


This is how Javelin throwers perform their throws.

Do you ever do your own research or do you just swallow whatever Marshall feeds you?

If you look at this video of javelin throwers, and in particular the first clip of Andreas Thorkildson (the Olympic champion) frame by frame, you can see that this is demonstrably false. His hips open before his shoulders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMtrMhGDFtU

It was these kinds of inconsistencies between claims and reality that led me to start questioning Marshall's claims.

Brent Rushall has made the same claims about cricket bowlers, that their hips and shoulders rotate at the same time, and this is also demonstrably false.

High-level overhand throwing athletes do this because it is an extremely efficient throwing pattern because it taps into the large muscles of the core.

In general, blind faith is dangerous.

[Chris O'Leary]

So. Are Javelin throwers the golden standard for throwing excellence and velocity?


The best javelin thrower in the world was 80-85 in a tryout while being wild. Reportedly the Braves were impressed....:rolleyes:
http://108mag.typepad.com/the_southpaw/2006/09/the_braves_and_.html

Like Marshall's pitchers, javelin throwers don't work on command or control. ;-)

[b4uplayball]

I got to thinking about it the other day.. About worrying so much on how my pitching mechanics are. Then i thought about all the pro baseball players that come out of Dominica republic and Puerto rico. They dont constantly worry about their "mechanics" they just get out there and play the game. All the do is Throw throw throw throw throw throw. After throwing and throwing their mechanics just become natural and their Minds naturally makes their bodys be able to efficiently throw the ball well... what are you guys takes on this.. instead of worrying so much on mechanics how about worrying about throwing throwing throwing as much as you can as hard as you can and your body will do the rest

The Dominican kids have outstanding athletes and I bet throwing mechanics are handed down just like it is here in the U.S.A.. One thing to note is that you are only seeing the best players from the Dominican Republic so it's possible that we don't have a true representation of the players there.

I agree that too much is made about mechanics at the youth baseball level. But once they in their teens it becomes more important, especially when pitching from the stretch

[RobV]

I agree that too much is made about mechanics at the youth baseball level. But once they in their teens it becomes more important, especially when pitching from the stretch

Once they are in their teens (especially later teens), it's almost too late to make changes in their throwing mechanics.

[Dirtberry]

Chris,

“I have video of Ichiro rotating his hips 90 degrees ahead of his shoulder on a crow hop throw from the outfield (which is why he's able to throw so hard).”

Then why don’t you show it? The video you posted proves my point about the shoulders coming through more together than apart like traditional pitchers. Why would you post a bed representation of a crow hop after the catch than one during the catch?
I doubt that you or many here even know what I’m talking about because this very difficult motor skill is unknown to most outfield players and instructors.

Notice in your clip how at release the hips and shoulders are rotating together.

I’ve noticed that you embellish most of your posts angle numbers to fit your perception of what you think you are seeing like ball movement seen from any angle other than straight on.

“Do you ever do your own research or do you just swallow whatever Marshall feeds you?”

I trust his expert opinion because I have physically put it to the test on me and then on players, it works and I have found no evidence that he has got it wrong at any stage from early rotation to late rotation, I’ve never seen him write anything about the badminton overhead pronated smash but I’d like to get his expert opinion.

I can tell with reading your opinions you do your own research then expound your non-expert opinion to what you want to come out. I do understand why you take these jabs though. It’s very transparent.

“If you look at this video of javelin throwers, and in particular the first clip of Andreas Thorkildson (the Olympic champion) frame by frame, you can see that this is demonstrably false. His hips open before his shoulders.”

No argument there, His shoulders that have only slightly gone ahead then catch back up before release more like Marshall wants baseball throwers to perform.


”It was these kinds of inconsistencies between claims and reality that led me to start questioning Marshall's claims.”

This is untrue of your motives and you know it! You have been spanked many times by Marshall for the bad information you print about what he teaches and theorizes, all starting back when you first e-mailed him then started your disinformation campaign at your web site. You may consider your direct communications with Marshall as your 15 minutes of fame.

?Brent Rushall has made the same claims about cricket bowlers, that their hips and shoulders rotate at the same time, and this is also demonstrably false.”

Brent has it more right than you, while there is hip contraction first they are closer to being together than the traditional pitching motion where you think there is a need to store the energy before it gets used that allows for greater loss of timing.

“High-level overhand throwing athletes do this because it is an extremely efficient throwing pattern because it taps into the large muscles of the core.”

This would only be true if there were large muscles in what you call the core.
A multitude of muscles in the abdomen, thorax and shoulders does not mean that they are one large muscle.

“In general, blind faith is dangerous.”

I take it your not religious now, what is more dangerous is listening to you tell pitchers how your form of the traditional motion helps prevent injuries.
Rigorous testing is not blind faith!
Actual kinesiological, exersize physiological tenets is not blind faith!
Eric, Ginger and Stevie are not dangerous either.

“Like Marshall's pitchers, javelin throwers don't work on command or control. ;-)”

Sophomoric comments are now becoming your increasing style?
I beg to differ? I’m no Javelin expert like you but I’ll bet a lot more damage comes from bad javelin command and control than most overhead throwing sports. Especially the bystanders.

Deemax,

So. Are Javelin throwers the golden standard for throwing excellence and velocity?

Who said anything about a “golden standard” I was talking similarities in rotation and driveline.

”The best javelin thrower in the world was 80-85 in a tryout while being wild. Reportedly the Braves were impressed”

I saw that video and story, so you think that if an athlete whom throws more like Marshall’s mechanic and has never pitched before and probably never even held a baseball is asked now to throw like a traditional pitcher with its early hip rotation that he will be able to throw over 75 you would be non understanding of the situation just as the Atlanta brain trust. How come they did not tell him to just throw like the Marshall mechanic where he would perform better? I know they are not that far along with their
Kineseiological expertise that would explain most their positions on physiological aspects with in an MLB organization!

[kylebee]

Notice in your clip how at release the hips and shoulders are rotating together.

No, they aren't.

EDIT: Furthermore, there exists plenty of kinematic studies done in laboratories that prove that rotating the shoulders and hips together is an immature motor skill and reduces power in all types of rotational swings.

[Baseball gLove]

Dirtberry, nice dig on Chris. Does Marshall also teach you guys how to discredit those that don't agree with you? Please let us know when there is a legitimate Marshall pitcher in the MLB, not one with a kick and stride, because until then you are all full of hot air. Until Marshall recognizes you guys need the kick'n'stride, you guys will only be know on message boards.

[yafu]

Do Javelin throwers bend their arm at elbow? Seems to be straight.
Does that give more power? Or just that they can't bend it cause the javelin is too long?

[LAball]

Or just that they can't bend it cause the javelin is too long?

Yes, so the javelin is balanced when throwing.

[Chris O'Leary]

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Videos/Video_Pitching__Example_CrowHop_Ichiro_001.gif

Then why don’t you show it? The video you posted proves my point about the shoulders coming through more together than apart like traditional pitchers. Why would you post a bed representation of a crow hop after the catch than one during the catch?
I doubt that you or many here even know what I’m talking about because this very difficult motor skill is unknown to most outfield players and instructors.

Notice in your clip how at release the hips and shoulders are rotating together.

This tells me all I need to know about your level of knowledge, or lack thereof.

I stop the clip at the moment where Ichiro's hips are facing the target while his shoulders are still completely closed.


I’ve noticed that you embellish most of your posts angle numbers to fit your perception of what you think you are seeing like ball movement seen from any angle other than straight on.

Huh?

[Chris O'Leary]

This is untrue of your motives and you know it! You have been spanked many times by Marshall for the bad information you print about what he teaches and theorizes, all starting back when you first e-mailed him then started your disinformation campaign at your web site. You may consider your direct communications with Marshall as your 15 minutes of fame.

My information is only bad when Marshall changes his opinion of something.

As I say in this piece on my web site...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DrMikeMashallMyCurrentView.html

...on 10/20/2005 I sent Dr. Marshall an e-mail that contained this statement...

I took a video of my son last night and noticed that his shoulders rotate before and much more than his hips do. Is this correct or should the rotation of his hips lead the rotation of his shoulders? As I visualize it, I would think that the hips should leg the shoulders because the leading rotation of the hips would pre-stretch the muscles of the torso, enabling them to more powerfully rotate the shoulders.

...to which Dr. Marshall responded (see Dr. Mike Marshall's 2005 Q&A file reply 805 dated 10/20/2005)...

You are correct. Baseball pitchers should forwardly rotate their hips and leave their shoulders behind. Then, when the hips have forwardly rotated as far as they can, pitchers should forwardly rotate their shoulders as far as they can.


Brent has it more right than you, while there is hip contraction first they are closer to being together than the traditional pitching motion where you think there is a need to store the energy before it gets used that allows for greater loss of timing.

The point isn't to store energy. The point is to stretch the muscles a moment before they contract, which is the Stretch Shortening Cycle (SSC) and which boosts the power output of muscles.


This would only be true if there were large muscles in what you call the core. A multitude of muscles in the abdomen, thorax and shoulders does not mean that they are one large muscle.

The muscles of the core make up one, very large muscle complex.

To say that the muscles of the core are anything but large and powerful is simply ridiculous.

[Dirtberry]

Kylebee,

“No, they aren't.”

Yes, they are! They have come forward closer together and at release are closer together even with this type of semi-crow-hop because of the defensive position on line drive skip ball.

Now show us a perfect Crow-hop on the catch like I was talking about??

”EDIT: Furthermore, there exists plenty of kinematic studies done in laboratories that prove that rotating the shoulders and hips together is an immature motor skill and reduces power in all types of rotational swings.”

Answering your furthermore, Now show us the kinematics studies of Marshalls mechanical positions recommendations done in a Laboratories that prove what Marshall is saying is wrong about overhead throwing NOT swings?

Baseball glove,

"Dirtberry, nice dig on Chris."

He needs to know that when he makes false statements that he will be challenged.
Everybody here who are curious enough to discuss these tenets but who have not put in the physical time seem to all get it wrong at many different points along the way.

“Does Marshall also teach you guys how to discredit those that don't agree with you?”

I don’t speak for him, nor do I communicate much with him ever since I finally got it.

I only discredit bad creditors. Making false statements about someone’s teaching to discredit them will always evoke a response.

“Please let us know when there is a legitimate Marshall pitcher in the MLB”

You have been let known before, this approach does not bear fruit!


“Until Marshall recognizes you guys need the kick'n'stride,

What part of Marshall teaching both forms did you miss again?

“you guys will only be know on message boards.”

You may be correct here with regards to the full Marshall Crow hop-pitching mechanic because nobody at any level has accepted it yet unless the dad is coaching the team

One good note; the JC kid who is expert at full Marshall but was forced to acquiesce in HS was asked by the head coach to go full Marshall in a scrimmage last week with out the benefit of a few months to prepare and had a great outing with all his pitches having more Axis control for greater movement because of less chance of arm centrifuging. When he had runners they were totally confused with his quicker and superior anatomical position.
Unfortunately to get a chance at a higher-level scholarship he will have to go back to some form of leg lift like you want him to.


Chris O’Leary,

“This tells me all I need to know about your level of knowledge, or lack thereof.”

I will take your criticism and try to become better.

”I stop the clip at the moment where Ichiro's hips are facing the target while his shoulders are still completely closed.”

You were OK here until you said completely. “Huh?” See!

Ichiro is half way (Quasi Marshall). Between early rotation (traditional pitchers) Late rotation (full Marshall) here with his hips

“The point isn't to store energy.”

Then why has this argument been used in the past regarding separation?

"The point is to stretch the muscles a moment before they contract."

What is the difference between fully lengthening and stretching? This is the part you do not understand; Cell wall is made of finite length strands that have a failure point.

When you read about SSC and any of the studies done on the subject you must realize that all of them concern training (mostly plyometric feasibility stuff) not performance.

What is the memory quotient of muscle and connective tissue? Has your research given you this insight yet?

“The muscles of the core make up one, very large muscle complex.”

To say this would deny the core of its own “Kinexus”

”o say that the muscles of the core are anything but large and powerful is simply ridiculous.”

Nobody is saying that, only you simply put.

[Chris O'Leary]

Yes, they are! They have come forward closer together and at release are closer together even with this type of semi-crow-hop because of the defensive position on line drive skip ball.

If his hips and shoulders are rotating together, then how are his hips facing the target while his shoulders are closed in the frame I stopped?


Now show us a perfect Crow-hop on the catch like I was talking about??

Maybe you could do some work.

What clip have you seen that reinforces your ideas?


Answering your furthermore, Now show us the kinematics studies of Marshalls mechanical positions recommendations done in a Laboratories that prove what Marshall is saying is wrong about overhead throwing NOT swings?

In pretty much every sport -- golf, water polo, etc. -- it is accepted that the hips should rotate ahead of the shoulders.


He needs to know that when he makes false statements that he will be challenged...I only discredit bad creditors. Making false statements about someone’s teaching to discredit them will always evoke a response.

Since you're ignoring my previous reply, here you go again...

on 10/20/2005 I sent Dr. Marshall an e-mail that contained this statement...

I took a video of my son last night and noticed that his shoulders rotate before and much more than his hips do. Is this correct or should the rotation of his hips lead the rotation of his shoulders? As I visualize it, I would think that the hips should leg the shoulders because the leading rotation of the hips would pre-stretch the muscles of the torso, enabling them to more powerfully rotate the shoulders.

...to which Dr. Marshall responded (see Dr. Mike Marshall's 2005 Q&A file reply 805 dated 10/20/2005)...

You are correct. Baseball pitchers should forwardly rotate their hips and leave their shoulders behind. Then, when the hips have forwardly rotated as far as they can, pitchers should forwardly rotate their shoulders as far as they can.

I would like to know at what point Marshall changed his mind about hip/shoulder separation and why.


When you read about SSC and any of the studies done on the subject you must realize that all of them concern training (mostly plyometric feasibility stuff) not performance.

Wrong.

Have you read any of the research yourself?

While later applications were to plyometrics (which I think is bunk), the original research was into performance.

It explains, for example, why to jump high good athletes first drop down toward the ground (which is known as a countermovement).


What is the memory quotient of muscle and connective tissue? Has your research given you this insight yet?

Nobody knows for sure why the SSC works, but anyone can demonstrate it to themselves. See how high you can jump without a countermovement and then with a countermovement.

[Chris O'Leary]

Dirtberry,

A week or so ago you called me a liar...

He needs to know that when he makes false statements that he will be challenged...I only discredit bad creditors. Making false statements about someone’s teaching to discredit them will always evoke a response.

...and then never responded to my points below.

On 10/20/2005 I sent Dr. Marshall an e-mail that contained this statement...

I took a video of my son last night and noticed that his shoulders rotate before and much more than his hips do. Is this correct or should the rotation of his hips lead the rotation of his shoulders? As I visualize it, I would think that the hips should leg the shoulders because the leading rotation of the hips would pre-stretch the muscles of the torso, enabling them to more powerfully rotate the shoulders.

...to which Dr. Marshall responded (see Dr. Mike Marshall's 2005 Q&A file reply 805 dated 10/20/2005)...

You are correct. Baseball pitchers should forwardly rotate their hips and leave their shoulders behind. Then, when the hips have forwardly rotated as far as they can, pitchers should forwardly rotate their shoulders as far as they can.

I would like to know at what point Marshall changed his mind about hip/shoulder separation and why.

[Baseball gLove]

......
Baseball glove,



He needs to know that when he makes false statements that he will be challenged.
Everybody here who are curious enough to discuss these tenets but who have not put in the physical time seem to all get it wrong at many different points along the way.



I don’t speak for him, nor do I communicate much with him ever since I finally got it.

I only discredit bad creditors. Making false statements about someone’s teaching to discredit them will always evoke a response.



You have been let known before, this approach does not bear fruit!




What part of Marshall teaching both forms did you miss again?



You may be correct here with regards to the full Marshall Crow hop-pitching mechanic because nobody at any level has accepted it yet unless the dad is coaching the team

One good note; the JC kid who is expert at full Marshall but was forced to acquiesce in HS was asked by the head coach to go full Marshall in a scrimmage last week with out the benefit of a few months to prepare and had a great outing with all his pitches having more Axis control for greater movement because of less chance of arm centrifuging. When he had runners they were totally confused with his quicker and superior anatomical position.
Unfortunately to get a chance at a higher-level scholarship he will have to go back to some form of leg lift like you want him to....


Really? It has been much easier to discredit Marshall than the other way around. Marshall's mantra has been superior velocity with superior control. Yet both claims have been proven false. Another claim is that Marshall pitchers release closer to home plate. Again, this was proven false. Your crow hop looks more like a step than a hop. One claim Marshall has made and I do believe is that his mechanics do protect against injury...It's hard to get injured if you don't play. Marshall and his devote followers believe every one else is wrong, even when proven otherwise. Now you have another savior, a JC player. The circle goes on and on. I could copy and paste my old responses to your stuff and you probably wouldn't know the difference and another year goes by.

[Postblankier]

I would like to know at what point Marshall changed his mind about hip/shoulder separation and why.If you were actually interested in knowing and not just trying to prove some vague point, wouldn't it make sense to ask him directly?

Really? It has been much easier to discredit Marshall than the other way around. Marshall's mantra has been superior velocity with superior control. Yet both claims have been proven false.Where exactly?

[Baseball gLove]

Where exactly?

You guys have problems proving you can reach 90 mph without a kick and a stride. I watched several traditional pitchers in the playoffs reach 97 to 100 mph. That is superior velocity. Are any of you in this range without a kick and a stride? With? Don't use the "we release closer than traditional pitchers" argument because it doesn't hold water. You can't prove that your pitchers can do this, so why continue?

[Postblankier]

You guys have problems proving you can reach 90 mph without a kick and a stride. I watched several traditional pitchers in the playoffs reach 97 to 100 mph. That is superior velocity. Are any of you in this range without a kick and a stride? With? Don't use the "we release closer than traditional pitchers" argument because it doesn't hold water. You can't prove that your pitchers can do this, so why continue?No, that's superior genetics. You can't compare velocity between different people because that doesn't make sense. Your proof is a negative evidence argument, which is not sufficient proof given the relative populations. I don't care about the releasing closer to the plate, that's splitting hairs.

I've sent Marshall the Q&A about the hip/shoulder separation. He thinks it has something to do with the Torque body action, but I'll post his response to the email tomorrow.

[Baseball gLove]

No, that's superior genetics. You can't compare velocity between different people because that doesn't make sense. Your proof is a negative evidence argument, which is not sufficient proof given the relative populations. I don't care about the releasing closer to the plate, that's splitting hairs.

I've sent Marshall the Q&A about the hip/shoulder separation. He thinks it has something to do with the Torque body action, but I'll post his response to the email tomorrow.

I didn't ask about anyones genetics, I asked about velocity. The absolute answer is that you guys do not have superior velocity.

You need to ask Marshall about the hip/shoulder separation? He thinks it has something to do with torque body action? He thinks? I know. So do the Doctors of Biomechanics Marshall so readily dismisses.

[Postblankier]

Chris,

I have never changed my mind about hip/shoulder separation.

Mr. O'Leary took these quotes out of question #805 of my 2005
Question/Answer file. His email was another in a series of questions
that he had regarding teaching his son how to pitch.

From his questions, I determined that he was a novice baseball
pitching coach. Therefore, rather than re-write my Coaching Baseball
Pitchers book, I decided to keep my instructions as simple as possible.

However, if he now wishes to learn more about the relationship
between the timing of the forward rotation of the hips and shoulders,
then I will answer the question in greater detail.

01. First, with my Maxline force application technique, I teach my
baseball pitchers to pendulum swing their pitching arm downward,
backward and upward to forty-five degrees behind the body straight
toward second base before they step forward at a forty-five degree angle
to their glove side with their glove foot.

As a result, my baseball pitchers passively reverse rotate their
hips and shoulders to forty-five degrees short of pointing at second
base.

02. While their pitching arm continues to swing upward to driveline
height, my baseball pitchers move the center of mass of their body and
their pitching arm forward.

03. When their glove foot lands, I teach my baseball pitchers to raise
their pitching arm to driveline height. This action 'locks' their
pitching upper arm with their shoulders.

04. Next, I teach my baseball pitchers to use their glove foot to pull
the center of mass of their body forward. This action rotates their hips
forward to perpendicular to the driveline to home plate. Therefore, for
the first forty-five degrees of forward hip rotation, my baseball
pitchers leave their shoulders behind.

05. However, with regard to hip/shoulder separation, the next action
that I teach my baseball pitchers differentiates my baseball pitching
motion from the 'traditional' baseball pitching motion.

In the same way that track sprinters leave the starting block, I
teach my baseball pitchers to push off the pitching rubber with the
front of their pitching foot and immediately drive their pitching knee
toward their glove knee.

This action rotates their hips, shoulders and pitching upper arm
forward as one unit.

06. Where, at release, 'traditional' baseball pitchers have their
pitching foot within inches of the pitching rubber, at release, my
baseball pitchers have their pitching knee beside their glove knee.

The measure of the appropriateness of a baseball pitching motor
skill is whether, as a result of performing that motor skill, baseball
pitchers suffer injuries.

With the hip/shoulder separation forward rotation technique that
'traditional' baseball pitchers use, they suffer injuries to their
Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle on the glove side of their rib cage.

With my hip/shoulder together forward rotation technique, in
addition to the Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle, my baseball pitchers
use the Oblique Externus Abdominis, Transverse Abdominis and the
Quadratus Lumborum muscles. These are the four muscles that attach to
the triad of hip bones and the rib cage that rotate the shoulders
relative to the hip.

When my baseball pitchers use these four powerful hip/shoulder
rotational muscles, they not only do not suffer injuries to their
Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle, but they also rotate at considerably
higher velocities.

Sincerely,

Dr. Mike Marshall

here are words that get me to minimum amount.

[Chris O'Leary]

Marshall says...

With the hip/shoulder separation forward rotation technique that 'traditional' baseball pitchers use, they suffer injuries to their Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle on the glove side of their rib cage.

These are minor injuries that are generally due to a lack of conditioning and that are easy to recover from.

Nobody was ever forced into retirement due to continual problems with their obliques.

IMO, Marshall is being overly, and needlessly, cautious about this.

Hitters often have minor problems with their obliques when they move to a rotational swing, but they recover quickly and don't have further problems once they condition their core.


Marshall says...

With my hip/shoulder together forward rotation technique, in addition to the Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle, my baseball pitchers use the Oblique Externus Abdominis, Transverse Abdominis and the Quadratus Lumborum muscles. These are the four muscles that attach to the triad of hip bones and the rib cage that rotate the shoulders relative to the hip.

When my baseball pitchers use these four powerful hip/shoulder rotational muscles, they not only do not suffer injuries to their Oblique Internus Abdominis muscle, but they also rotate at considerably higher velocities.

ASMI's data disproves this claim.

[yafu]

btw, anymore slow motion sequence of accurate-powerful outfielder throwing?