'Tek's Future

[riredsox]

With less than a month left in the season, I thought I'd see what the general opinion of Jason Varitek's future in Boston is. Assuming he isn't re-signed, I'm assuming Theo & Co would either
a.) promote George Kottaras (lack of ML experiance makes this unlikely)
b.)sign a free agent (I-Rod?)
c.) trade for a replacement (Chris Coste seems to be getting a good rap from his pitchers.)

[Evangelion]

With less than a month left in the season, I thought I'd see what the general opinion of Jason Varitek's future in Boston is. Assuming he isn't re-signed, I'm assuming Theo & Co would either
a.) promote George Kottaras (lack of ML experiance makes this unlikely)
b.)sign a free agent (I-Rod?)
c.) trade for a replacement (Chris Coste seems to be getting a good rap from his pitchers.)
Not that high on Kottaras. Isn't there a reason he only cost Boston a declining David Wells?

I want nothing to do with Ivan Rodriguez myself. He's just looking for money. If he's bad and loses starts, he'll complain and demand a trade out of the city, just like he did in Detroit. He's under the impression he's a starter. Oh, he doesn't fit into the Red Sox style of offense, which is to take pitches and work counts and walks. Walks are foreign to Ivan Rodriguez.

Not sure. Most of the catchers in MLB and prospects don't interest me. I'm referring to players the team could get. Cleveland might be willing to trade Victor Martinez this winter, but as a catcher, I don't view him highly. Good offensive player, but catcher? I sour on Salty, another popular player people thought could be had.

Honestly, I would like Varitek back. Since I just don't see better options. I do wish Kelly Shoppach was in the organization still. He seems to be coming into his own this season.

[mg050369]

I agree, re-signing Tek seems to be a no-brainer, at least for '09. Kottaras has hit for power at AAA but I would be nervous if he was the everyday Sox catcher. There isn't a significant upgrade in the free agent market and I don't know if there are any ready made replacements in the trade market.

Ink him to a reasonable one year deal and bring in a strong backup to audition as the '10 starter and platoon (60/40) with Tek in '09. I believe part of the reason Tek has struggled is he's 36 and still catching 80% of the games.

[maximum jack]

Ink him to a reasonable one year deal and bring in a strong backup to audition as the '10 starter and platoon (60/40) with Tek in '09. I believe part of the reason Tek has struggled is he's 36 and still catching 80% of the games.

I just don't think Tek will sign for anything less than 3 years.

[Mike D.]

I think the ideal is to bring Tek back on a two year contract for similar money to what he's on now, but with the understanding that whoever the backup is will see more playing time than in the past. If he's willing to do this, it'll help keep him fresh, and help the Sox break in a future catcher slowly. Even if Tek starts a lot of games, then comes out early, that could cut down on wear and tear.

Whether the new, increased-time backup is in the system or via trade. I'm sure the Sox will try to land someone this winter, shopping the likes of Crisp, Lugo, and some second-tier pitching prospects. Not sure if they can land anyone, or not.

If they can't, I'd probably take Dusty Brown over George Kottaras. Kottaras has more power, but Brown is much more solid behind the plate, I feel, and hit for higher average in AAA than Kotteras. Brown put up a 290/.387/.471 line with 12 HR for the Pawsox this year, with Kottaras putting up a .243/.348/.456 with 22 HR.

The highest rated catcher in the Red Sox system according to soxprospects.com is Luis Exposito, who if he pans out, is still a couple years from the majors, it appears.

If the Sox think Exposito is their catcher of the future, I think a couple years of Tek/Brown/Kotteras (and maybe Cash or Ross) wouldn't be terrible, especially with Tek's game calling and the chance for him to work with the younger guys.

[Dogdaze]

Tek needs to be re-signed, I'm thinking one year with an option or maybe just give him two years.

And I assume the Sox will retain Wakefield and therefore would need a knuckleball catcher such as Cash. Did either Kottaras or Brown catch Zink, if so maybe one of them can be brought up next year as the backup.

[mg050369]

I just don't think Tek will sign for anything less than 3 years.


Perhaps and some other team may give that to him, I just hope it's not the Sox unless it's for real low money. I don't think he's washed up but believe Sox brass would regret that 3rd year.

I could live with a two year deal if he was paired with his heir apparent over those two seasons, cutting back on his playing time to keep him fresh with his backup attached at his hip to soak up every bit of his knowledge.

My first call would be the Texas, trying to pry away one of their three catching amigos: Salt, Tegarden and Ramirez. Each are still young, can learn from Tek, be eased into the lineup and be a servicable replacement if Tek ends up on the DL in '09.

[Imgran]

I vote "promote Dusty Brown." I think he's a better all-around catcher than Kottaras and would make it so we don't have to caddy for Wake. But since to my disappointment that wasn't an option I went for the closest thing (Kot)

[Imgran]

And I assume the Sox will retain Wakefield and therefore would need a knuckleball catcher such as Cash. Did either Kottaras or Brown catch Zink, if so maybe one of them can be brought up next year as the backup.

Both Kottaras and Brown have caught Zink. They've actually split the job pretty equally, which is surprising. Anyway, point is Kot can defniltely handle the knuck, and so can Brown.

You will not get Jason Varitek on a one-year contract unless he's committed to ending his career here.

[Dogdaze]

Both Kottaras and Brown have caught Zink. They've actually split the job pretty equally, which is surprising. Anyway, point is Kot can defniltely handle the knuck, and so can Brown.

You will not get Jason Varitek on a one-year contract unless he's committed to ending his career here.

Good to know about Kottaras and Brown, based on what you and Mike D. wrote, it sounds like Brown may be the better option at this point. I'd really like to see a young catcher come up and have a few years to be mentored with Tek.

BTW, I meant one year with a mutual option, forgot the "Mutual" in my previous post, or just sign Tek for two years. Tek turns 37 in April, so I think two years is fair.

Though, with Boras as his agent, and I'm sure other teams will be interested in Teks services, it would not surprise me to see him signing for longer deal. Hopefully he resigns with the Sox, whatever the amount of years.

[hellborn]

I think that Tek will end up back with the Bosox on a fairly short contract...if you remember the negotiations after '04, there was a little bit of jockeying for position and then the contract just happened pretty quickly. Unusual for a Boras contract...I think that Tek just told Scott to get it done, he wanted to stay. I don't hink that Tek is quite as selfless as Wake, but suspect that he'll make it clear he wants to stay and not go for the maximum $$$ out of Boston.
I wish that could just let him go, as much as I like his heart and what he's done for the team in the past, because he's cratering...but, I don't see a better option than him right now, unless they do trade for a young guy from TX or elsewhere. But, everybody is looking for young catchers with promise, won't be cheap.

[KCGHOST]

This is a tough one for Red Sox fans. They have great affection for Tek and feel a parting gift of $10-20M is in order. But, Tek now performs at the replacement level offensively. He is durable and can catch a lot of games, but do you really want to pay $10M+ a year for that??

The loyalty card will be played here. Do remember that when this is played you just paid him $40M over the last four years. You don't owe him anything. He was very handsomely compensated for his loyalty and service. Just make a decision that works for the long term interest of the club.

[Mike D.]

Yesterday, the Red Sox called up George Kottaras. With three catchers already on the roster, he probably won't see much playing time (if any), but I guess they want him to work with the major league staff.

[bakes781]

it's really simple for me:

what else is out there? re-sign Tek!

[gman5431]

I'm somewhat suprised by the support for resigning V-Tek. It is very appearant that his skills have declined to the point where he is in the bottom third of catcher, IMO. I think his support speaks more to the fact there are no good replacements available more then his actual worth. Kotteras seems like the best option to me, but they should have a vetern presense there as well, maybe Coste. Giving Tek a 2 or 3 year deal would be a big mistake, but thats prolly what its going to take to bring him back.

G Rizzle

[mg050369]

I'm somewhat suprised by the support for resigning V-Tek. It is very appearant that his skills have declined to the point where he is in the bottom third of catcher, IMO. I think his support speaks more to the fact there are no good replacements available more then his actual worth. Kotteras seems like the best option to me, but they should have a vetern presense there as well, maybe Coste. Giving Tek a 2 or 3 year deal would be a big mistake, but thats prolly what its going to take to bring him back.

G Rizzle

I think you answered your own question. Is everyone excited about bringing Tek back for 2 or 3 years? No. However, what are the alternatives?

Internal - I wouldn't feel comfortable turning over the reigns to Kottaras or Brown.

Free agent - I don't see an option out there significantly better than Tek.

Trade - perhaps the most appealing but how many guys are options and what will it take to get them?

When you factor in each, bringing back Tek for 2 or 3 years with the catcher of the future seems to be the best option.

[hellborn]

I can't fathom Tek commanding $10million a year from anybody...he was good enough with the bat last year, but awful in '06 and, especially, this season.
Is the market really that strong for a C who will be 37 and hasn't hit 2 of the past 3 seasons??
If he comes back, you've gotta start folding in the younger guys a lot more, too...

[scaffolds]

I just don't think Tek will sign for anything less than 3 years.

I agree that Boras will be asking for a 3 year contract, i also believe that Luis Exposito is the Sox's catcher of the future and that there won't be a catcher in the free agency market this off season to replace Tek, specially the way he handles the pitching staff and to a less extent his defense game, however with the way his bat has declined and it will decline in the coming years, 3 years for Tek is way too much, but if the Sox brass can sign him for a 2 yrs contract plus a club option, it will be a no brainer.

[rwolfe09]

'Tek may be a terrible hitter but look at his knowledge. Remember when we missed the playoffs? 'Tek was hurt for a month and no pitchers did good at all. Jason knows the hitters, pitchers..hell he probably knows the umpire's scouting reports. He's well worth it.

[Imgran]

Nomar
Pedro
Manny
Lowe
Mueller
Damon
Foulke

These players say that veterans are not retained for the sake of retaining veterans. Varitek will have to be a player that Theo believes will give value for the life of his contract or he will not be brought back.

[Evangelion]

Nomar
Pedro
Manny
Lowe
Mueller
Damon
Foulke

These players say that veterans are not retained for the sake of retaining veterans. Varitek will have to be a player that Theo believes will give value for the life of his contract or he will not be brought back.
Those players were view as veterans and cut due to long term contracts and likely decline in production. Not to say Varitek will not command one or both things I just said. The one thing none of those players had going for them was being a catcher. Varitek's value can not be measured by the fan base. I can't tell how valuable Varitek is behind the plate for the pitchers and how he calls a game. Can you? I'm not saying that alone should retain him, but it should be consider. If Varitek can get into AS Game voted in by his peers, he must be more valuable than his offensive production.

By the way, you can't exactly group Lowe into that group. There was bad relation between management and Lowe during 04.

[The Kid]

I believe that Tek will still have value to this team when he's hitting .150. He's the smartest player in the game, and his instincts and handeling of pitchers are alone enough to merit a re-signing.

[Mike D.]

A lot of the decision boils down to what Varitek wants to do. The Sox will have a number of years and a dollar value in mind, and if history is any guide, they won't stray far from it. If he wants to finish his career in Boston and have a chance at a few more rings, he'll stay. If he'd rather try his luck elsewhere, or make a few extra million, he'll go elsewhere.

It'll be an interesting off-season. Trading for a young catcher is always tough...and with Tek's future on the line, teams will hang the Sox over a barrel in trade talks, for sure. Having Kottaras/Brown/Cash helps...they could at least go into next year with some combination of those guys and get by.

[riredsox]

If Tek doesn't come back, and none of the backups can handle it, I think getting Chris Coste might be a good idea, provided the cost isn't too high. Barring that, I think maybe a Cash-Kottaras platoon could work. Of course, bringing back Tek is the best option at this point.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

The question is, can anybody else do the same job for less money?

Plus he is still the Red Sox captain. But if Boras wants anything else than a 1-year-contact, forget him and move forward. I think V-Tek's offensive numbers are easily replaced by someone other for much less money. 1-2 mill. per year. But find someone with this game-calling...

[hellborn]

The question is, can anybody else do the same job for less money?

Plus he is still the Red Sox captain. But if Boras wants anything else than a 1-year-contact, forget him and move forward. I think V-Tek's offensive numbers are easily replaced by someone other for much less money. 1-2 mill. per year. But find someone with this game-calling...

Well, you also have to factor in future prospects for development by a player...Tek's career is almost over, a young guy might come in and struggle while he's learning, then give you 10 years of solid play.

I've never been that crazy about Tek's game calling. He's in love with the fastball...when Dice K first came over, Tek had him throwing 80-90% fastballs. The guy was supposed to have 4-5 pitches, and he was just pumping the fastball in over and over. Maybe Tek was trying to get Dice K to locate the FB better and wasn't happy with his control of the breaking stuff, but hitters just starting teeing off on the nonstop fastballs. There was a comment from Dice K through the interpreter to the effect of, "I hope to improve my control of my breaking pitches so that Tek-san will actually call for them in the games." I think that was a very polite way of complaining about Tek's game calling.
That's just one example, but I've never seen game calling as a huge strength of Tek's. I like him and he's been a good player and captain, but thought that was more of a weakness of his.

This isn't a criticism of Tek, but I'm just curious...do we know if Tek tried to weigh in with his opinion when Grady was decided to leave a tired Pedro in late in Game 7 of the '03 ALCS? Was he in on the huddle, did he pull Grady aside and say his pitcher was just gassed? Tek would have been the best guy to judge how much Pedro was slipping. That's when I look for team leader to step up and say, "Grady, we need to get Timlin and Williamson ready to go, Pedro is shot." Not that Grady would have listened, as he had a strong preference for inaction...

[NY16CATCHER]

If Tek doesn't come back, and none of the backups can handle it, I think getting Chris Coste might be a good idea, provided the cost isn't too high. Barring that, I think maybe a Cash-Kottaras platoon could work. Of course, bringing back Tek is the best option at this point.

You'll never see Chris Coste in Boston as a member of the Red Sox. There's a history there and I don't think Chris would trust Theo Epstein ever again.

[riredsox]

In the Providence Journal the other day, Sea McAdam said re-signing 'Tek was the best option b/c "Most scouts agree that George Kottaras needs work defensevly, and will not be ready for 2009. Mark Wagner, herlded as catcher of the future, is still a few years away." If we can't add a new one during the off-season, re-sign 'Tek for a year, bring up George Kottaras, and keep your fingers crossed he can learn on the job, with 'Tek there as a mentor.

[Mike D.]

I saw the McAdam article too...and I have to say, it's almost like he wrote it a year ago, not recently. No mention of Dusty Brown, who I feel is a much better defensive catcher than Kottaras and also more ready to step up to the major league level. Wagner had a rough year in 2008, and his stock dropped substantially...he may still be a catcher of the future, but I think Esposito holds that title now.

Personally, as great as it'd be for Tek to train the long term "catcher of the future", I don't think that guy (whether he's Wagner, Esposito, or isn't even in the system yet) isn't major league ready, and they'll be filling in with a guy who's probably passable (Kottaras, Brown), but probably not the long-term solution.

Just my 2 cents, based on what I've seen of Kottaras and Brown and read about the other guys.

[Jager]

I voted to re-sign Tek. Personally I can't bear to think about him trying to hit a baseball in 3 years, but we don't have any options. The FA catchers suck as always (Pudge is a liability catching), trading for a catcher is easier said than done, as any good prospects demand a small fortune, and rarely pan out anyway, ever notice there's a new "top catching prospect" every couple months? You don't know what you'll get from them. Kottaras would be our only other option really. He at least has some power, and everything I've heard, he calls a good game, but realistically I don't see that happening. Ugh. I don't want to watch Tek hit for 3 years though. : (

[maximum jack]

I've never seen game calling as a huge strength of Tek's. I like him and he's been a good player and captain, but thought that was more of a weakness of his.


Really? The guy has caught more no-hitters than any other catcher in the history of the game. As for the Dice-K comment, he can't get his breaking pitches over the plate and major league hitters are patient, so he walks five guys a night and barely gets through the fifth inning. So maybe he should listen to Tek.

[hellborn]

Really? The guy has caught more no-hitters than any other catcher in the history of the game. As for the Dice-K comment, he can't get his breaking pitches over the plate and major league hitters are patient, so he walks five guys a night and barely gets through the fifth inning. So maybe he should listen to Tek.

Well, Dice K's ERA was 4.40 when he was throwing tons of FBs, 2.93 nibbling with the breaking balls this year. His style drives me nuts, too, but I'll take the 17-2 record this year over 15-12, also. I would assume that Terry or Theo must have had a long talk with Tek about Dice K throwing fastballs all the time.
Kudos to Tek for the no hitters, but, if he gets credit for Buchholz throwing one last year, he gets demerits for Clay being horrendous this year, too. And, Lowe was one of those guys who could get a no hitter on one pitch, back when he had that nuclear sinker...Tek must have been calling for splits when Nomo got his, though.

[maximum jack]

Personally, I still think Tek calls a great game. That being said, after yesterday's performance, I'm ready to watch him walk at the end of the year. He is an automatic out at the plate, and in a world without Manny we need production from all other positions to get things done.

[bakes781]

We may know the fate of Tek shortly. According to WEEI.com owner John Henry will be privately meeting with Jason tonight.

[mg050369]

My vote doesn't change, although the terms do. Re-sign Tek in a one year, $2-3M take it or leave it offer. You can still pursue all the same Plan B options. Bard, Kottaras or a trade (Salty, Montero, etc.) could still serve as the second backstop. However, his days of catching 130 games a season would be over. It would be at least a 60/40 split depending on the backup.

[Dogdaze]

We may know the fate of Tek shortly. According to WEEI.com owner John Henry will be privately meeting with Jason tonight.

Here's what the Globe is reporting;


In what may be a final attempt to end a stalemate that has existed throughout this offseason, Red Sox captain Jason Varitek has a meeting planned with club owner John Henry tonight that could facilitate a resolution with the free-agent catcher.

Reached by phone a short time ago, Varitek would confirm only that he is meeting with Henry "tonight,'' in the Atlanta area, where Varitek makes his offseason home. Varitek would not specify a location of the meeting other than to say it would not be at his home. Varitek's agent, Scott Boras, will not be at the one-on-one meeting.

According to a baseball source, it was Varitek who requested the meeting.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/varitek_henry_t.html

Interesting that Tek requested the meeting and Boras won't be there!

I hope Varitek fires Boras and negotiates a contract by himself with John Henry.

[Dirt Dog]

Interesting that Tek requested the meeting and Boras won't be there!If Tec is going to sign back up with the way he's already turned down a sweet offer by the Sox of $10m....it's going to have to come from him....he knows where the Sox stand. It's his move...




I hope Varitek fires Boras and negotiates a contract by himself with John Henry.That would be more of a headliner even if he did end up signing. :highfive:

[SDL]

Here's what the Globe is reporting;


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/varitek_henry_t.html

Interesting that Tek requested the meeting and Boras won't be there!

I hope Varitek fires Boras and negotiates a contract by himself with John Henry.

Something tells me Boras is not going to be happy this meeting is happening

[gwynnfan]

would like to see a new poll on this with updated info.

[riredsox]

I'll see if I can ask a mod to change it. Also, should I put a poll in about, if 'Tek leaves, who should the backup be?

[Dogdaze]

According to NESN’s Heidi Watney;


She says Varitek's meeting with Henry was to "clear the air" rather than negotiate. The Red Sox had not been returning Scott Boras' phone calls, but now they'll reopen negotiations. Watney notes that Varitek was not aware when he turned down arbitration that any signing team would have to give up a draft pick. Tek does not blame Boras for this.

I’m not surprised the Red Sox weren’t returning Boras phone calls. How many times did he not return Theo’s phone calls over the years and they had to chase him down. The negotiations with Dice-K come to mind when Boras didn’t return Theos calls. I applaud the Red Sox FO approach of not returning his calls immediately. the Sox already made an offer for Tek which I suspect is much lower then what Boras wants, and eventually will call him back after making Boras sweat a bit.

I’m glad John Henry took the time to meet with Varitek, I think that was a classy move since as the owner he didn’t have to meet with him, but does show that the Sox are interested in resigning him.

I’m going to guess the Sox will offer Tek maybe 5 or 6 million for one year with a team option for a second year possibly at between 2 to 4 million. But it wouldn’t surprise me if they offered less.

I do find it surprising that Tek didn’t know that another team signing him would have to give up a draft pick, didn’t Boras inform him? I’d sure blame Boras for not doing so and for not recognizing that the market for a declining catcher wouldn’t garnish a lot of bidders. And Boras should have informed Tek that arbitration was probably his best chance to make a good payday, he would have gotten between 10 to 12 million with arbitration.

Now because there apparently aren’t other bidders for Varitek, (See Olney’s quotes below) Varitek has to come to the Sox, and they are very much in a position to offer a much lower contract then what he would have received via arbitration, and that’s if they even decide to resign him, though I believe they eventually will.


Buster Olney asked multiple executives whether they'd sign Varitek at any price given that they'd have to give up an early draft pick for doing so. Everyone asked said no, they'd rather have the pick. Olney reminds us that some executives could think differently, but his informal poll shows that Varitek doesn't have much leverage with the Red Sox.

Link to above quotes;
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/pagetwo.html

I like Varitek, and I love players who are loyal to the Sox which Tek is, and I definitely want to see him resigned. Based on various Pitcher’s comments, such as Schilling, Boomer Wells and Matt Clement, he is extremely valuable when calling a game, possibly the best in baseball. He works very hard studying opposing hitters knowing their strengths and weaknesses and with some new pitchers joining the team who are not familiar with AL hitters, Varitek would be a valuable asset to them. But at this point in his career with his declining bat and his defense has slipped a bit too, he really can’t expect a contract more then a few years at most and not for big bucks.

[gwynnfan]

" He works very hard studying opposing hitters knowing their strengths and weaknesses "

I have trouble understanding this, people say that like no other catcher in MLB does it. They have scouts, advanced scouts, team sabremetric guys, pitching coaches, catching coaches, etc. etc. Is it really that hard to remember hitting tendencies for 9 guys that you are going to play for 3 or 4 days. Do people really believe that pitching and catching coaches don't sit down with the starting pitchers and catcher the day before they start and go over this information. Most of the knowledgeable fans have a pretty good idea with out help and getting paid millions to remember. They can wear an arm card cheat sheets like NFL Quarterbacks do so they don't forget.

[Dogdaze]

" He works very hard studying opposing hitters knowing their strengths and weaknesses "

I have trouble understanding this, people say that like no other catcher in MLB does it. They have scouts, advanced scouts, team sabremetric guys, pitching coaches, catching coaches, etc. etc. Is it really that hard to remember hitting tendencies for 9 guys that you are going to play for 3 or 4 days. Do people really believe that pitching and catching coaches don't sit down with the starting pitchers and catcher the day before they start and go over this information. Most of the knowledgeable fans have a pretty good idea with out help and getting paid millions to remember. They can wear an arm card cheat sheets like NFL Quarterbacks do so they don't forget.

Whats with the insulting remarks?

No one said other catchers can't remember hitter tendencies. Of course there are scouts coachs ect that learn the opositions hitting strengths and weaknesses and go over that info with the pitchers. All catchers and pitchers study to have knowledge of opposing hitters, no one is disputing that. My post just mentioned that Tek is one of the best at handling pitchers and works hard studying opposing hitters knowing their strengths and weaknesses.

Pitchers who have played with Tek rave about him and how he helps them. Schilling has been talking this up on his blog. Over the years, I've heard several pitchers and coaches comment about how valuable Tek is at calling a game. I know his pitch handling subject is probably a bit overrated, but I don't think they'd make these type of statements if there wasn't some truth to it.

Here's a few quotes about Tek's pitch handling;

Matt Clement said;


"Before coming here, all I heard were glowing reviews about him," says Clement, "and he's better than what I heard."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_24_229/ai_n13812544/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1

John Farrell said;


“He’s got a photographic memory and just a true feel for what the hitter is doing in the batter’s box in a given at-bat,” he said Tuesday in a telephone interview. “Second, third, fourth time through the lineup, he’s well aware of the sequences that he’s called in the previous at-bats. If adjustments are needed with pitch selection, he has the recall to make that on the fly.”

Varitek is said to be more vocal in scouting meetings than even the team’s coaches, and he can be seen before games sorting through scouting reports as if studying for a test.

He is a beloved figure to Red Sox fans — and to the team’s pitchers, too.
“To have that kind of desire, that kind of preparation, in really making the most of a pitcher — it’s invaluable,”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/sports/baseball/21redsox.html

All of of us saw how badly Varitek hit last year, he's clearly declined, and it was painful to see him become an almost automatic out. Honestly if they don't resign him, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I believe Schilling and others when they say that Tek helps their game and thats still a valuable asset to the Sox pitchers.

[Imgran]

Other catchers can develop the same habits Varitek developed. Kottaras in particular is, for those who have been paying attention, gathering a nice little reputation as a gamecaller himself.

[gwynnfan]

Whats with the insulting remarks?

No one said other catchers can't remember hitter tendencies. Of course there are scouts coachs ect that learn the opositions hitting strengths and weaknesses and go over that info with the pitchers. All catchers and pitchers study to have knowledge of opposing hitters, no one is disputing that. My post just mentioned that Tek is one of the best at handling pitchers and works hard studying opposing hitters knowing their strengths and weaknesses.

Pitchers who have played with Tek rave about him and how he helps them. Schilling has been talking this up on his blog. Over the years, I've heard several pitchers and coaches comment about how valuable Tek is at calling a game. I know his pitch handling subject is probably a bit overrated, but I don't think they'd make these type of statements if there wasn't some truth to it.

Here's a few quotes about Tek's pitch handling;

Matt Clement said;



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_24_229/ai_n13812544/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1

John Farrell said;



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/sports/baseball/21redsox.html

All of of us saw how badly Varitek hit last year, he's clearly declined, and it was painful to see him become an almost automatic out. Honestly if they don't resign him, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I believe Schilling and others when they say that Tek helps their game and thats still a valuable asset to the Sox pitchers.

I was not trying to insult you. I was talking about every announcer on TV, every article by journalist, not you as a poster. I should have put that in my post. But all you ever here about Tek is his intangibles. You hardly hear any one say that about any other catcher. Dice K also said that he wanted to go to the Red Sox because of Tek. People go as far as saying he is a good defensive catcher, he's not. He is the most over rated player in the MLB. The only reason I can think of is because has has no tangibles. He is a good guy, great teammate of course players are going to talk good about him. My point is people act like if he is not going to be behind the plate the Sox ERA is going to be last in the league and every young Pitcher is going to fail. He has been bad for 3 years not just last year. .237 ba,.393 slg, 18 db, 14hr, 47 r, 55 rbi, 59 bb, 112 so his last three year averages. Its like a long time girl friend who just is not worth the head ache anymore. It was nice, It was fun. You might even still like her. You still wouldn't mind being with her once in a while but you know its time to move on.

[Imgran]

Bad example. It's more like a really good old car that you've had since college and loved every minute of it, tons of personality, it's been comfortable and reliable the whole time, you know what to expect from it, but it's now starting to rust through and the chassis undercarriage has holes in it and it's starting to break down a little too often and be a bit dangerous to drive.

You could be stubborn about it at risk to yourself and others but it'd be smarter to just accept entropy and get a newer car that doesn't have all the little things you loved about the old one but has a more reliable engine and is not going to fall apart on you.

[Dogdaze]

I was not trying to insult you. I was talking about every announcer on TV, every article by journalist, not you as a poster. I should have put that in my post.

Thanks. Sometimes posts on forums can be misunderstood.


But all you ever here about Tek is his intangibles. You hardly hear any one say that about any other catcher. Dice K also said that he wanted to go to the Red Sox because of Tek. People go as far as saying he is a good defensive catcher, he's not.

I understand what your saying. I do agree that Tek is a bit overrated on defense, he’s definitely not the gold glover that he was in the past. His game calling/pitch handling is hyped more then it should be as well. But I do consider what various pitchers say about his game calling which is where his value to the team is. I’ll post some of Schillings comments on that below.


He is the most over rated player in the MLB. The only reason I can think of is because has has no tangibles. He is a good guy, great teammate of course players are going to talk good about him.

I don’t agree that he has no tangibles, his game calling, is a definite asset imo and his leadership which may be overrated as well, is also an asset, though without him I'm sure there's plenty of other leaders in the clubhouse to take his spot. And I also do believe most other catchers would do fine at game calling for the Sox. However, perhaps, based on Schilling and others, maybe not quite as well as Tek.


My point is people act like if he is not going to be behind the plate the Sox ERA is going to be last in the league and every young Pitcher is going to fail.

While I do believe when people make statements like that, they are often exaggerated, but Schilling believes that Tek helps the picthers keep their ERA down. I’m not sure how much their ERA might be effected without Tek, if at all. I guess well find out if they don’t resign Varitek.

Due to Varitek’s hitting decline against RHP as well as not being quite as good defensively, there’s many better catchers in MLB, but none are available via FA and I haven’t heard any rumors of trading for a solid veteran catcher, only prospect type catchers like Salty, Tea or Montero. I’m not sure any of those three would be fully prepared to go full time just yet, though I could be wrong. And while we do have Bard available to share games with a young catcher his hitting was worse the Teks' last year, so I'd prefer Tek with a young catcher over Bard.

I’d also consider Kottaras or Dusty Brown, though that woudln't be my first choice at this time. And I’d still like Tek available to teach/mentor either of them if the Sox decide to promote one to play for the big club.

To me the best case scenario is to sign Tek and trade for one of Salty, Tea or Montero, and let Tek teach/mentor whomever they get via trade for a year.

I’d also want Tek to bat right only, when he batted right handed vs. LHP last year, he went,
BA .284 OBP .378 SLG .484 OPS .863 with 95 ABs. which is pretty good.

Bottom line for me, is I think he still has value to the team particualry calling a game, but if he's not resigned I really won't lose any sleep over it.

From Curt Schillings blog where he states;


Let’s take the “No Tek” approach. There are three (for simplicity sake) possible outcomes.

1) The staff gets better with two new catchers and excels and they win a ton of games.
2) The staff stays somewhat similar and no one excels or declines to any serious degree
3) The staff is worse, some guys stay somewhat the same, a bunch of guys have inconsistent seasons.

The “X factor” in all this is John Farrell. Were it not for John I don’t think this discussion would be happening, Tek would be signed and he’d be tasked with bringing along the next catcher for this franchise. John is the best pitching coach alive (though Dick Bosman and Mark Connor rank right up there, and Bob Welch was awesome). John brings a ton of things to the table that few others do and if Tek is not back his workload will triple (at least) and he’ll have much more coaching to do and preparation as well. I think John makes outcome No. 3 less likely but he alone will be hard pressed to make No. 1 happen without major contributions from behind the plate. Any staff will/would/does have issues making No. 1 happen without a catcher behind the plate that knows lineups and prepares to the degree Tek does. I’d be interested, and my inclination is to make a bet, that in the last 15 years the amount of teams that have won World Series with a brand new No. 1 starting catcher, or a duo that splits catching duties, both new to the team, is minimal.

And Schilling states;


There are quite a few new arms here that will take some getting used to, and no one that I have ever thrown to gets into a pitcher and his rhythms better than Jason. Add to that his reputation - which is not a myth, guys around baseball know Tek is good and know how much the staff loves throwing to him - and how many other catchers get talked about in that sense? Few.
The thing I can speak from experience to is getting to know your new catcher, and getting comfortable. They are two very different things. I put a ton of time and effort into getting comfortable with a new catcher more so than anything. Rhythm is such a huge part of the game to many pitchers, me included, that I needed to be in a flow and did not want to be out there shaking off and calling time outs during games.

Could Josh win 20 without Tek? Absolutely. Could Lester continue to get better? I bet he will. But that, and so many other things are much easier roads to travel WITH him catching as opposed to him not catching.

Link to full article: http://38pitches.weei.com/

[gwynnfan]

By tangibles I mean hitting and defense. The best thing he does is what Schilling said is controlling the tempo of a game. The thing about Schill is he is a "homer", his guys. All 4 of the pitching coaches he mentioned as the best were all once his pitching coach. No mention of anybody he never played with, kinda of hinky.

[bakes781]

The Sox have a standing offer on the table to Tek

According to MLB network.

[Boston Boxer]

they have him by the balls on this one...he would be lucky to get a one year deal worth $2M

[gwynnfan]

Would Tek sign for 2-3 mil, 1/4 of last years salary? Or would he sign an incentive laden deal with the Philys getting a chance to play full time? Would he agree to only playing 1/3 to 1/2 of the games/innings with the Sox? Would one of his demands to still be a Captain? Would the Red Sox strip the Captain title from him since he has not actually left the team?

[DoubleX]

Personally, and I never thought I'd say this, but I kind want the Yankees to sign him to a 1 year deal. Posada is a question mark, perhaps bigger than the team or he will let on. At 37 and coming off a significant arm injury, combined with the fact that his defense was already declining, he may not be able to resume fulltime catcher duties. The current backup is Jose Molina. Molina makes a nice backup but he's not someone you'd want to rely on for an extended stretch as he's all defense and almost no offense. I think Varitek would represent a better plan B for the Yankees. I would hope that with more rest, he'd be more productive than last year, and I think he'd be a better option than Molina should Posada have problems and the backup is required to play with some frequency.

Of course, I doubt Varitek would go for it. He may want to spurn the Red Sox at this point, but for the Yankees? Probably not.

[d32123]

Personally, and I never thought I'd say this, but I kind want the Yankees to sign him to a 1 year deal. Posada is a question mark, perhaps bigger than the team or he will let on. At 37 and coming off a significant arm injury, combined with the fact that his defense was already declining, he may not be able to resume fulltime catcher duties. The current backup is Jose Molina. Molina makes a nice backup but he's not someone you'd want to rely on for an extended stretch as he's all defense and almost no offense. I think Varitek would represent a better plan B for the Yankees. I would hope that with more rest, he'd be more productive than last year, and I think he'd be a better option than Molina should Posada have problems and the backup is required to play with some frequency.

Of course, I doubt Varitek would go for it. He may want to spurn the Red Sox at this point, but for the Yankees? Probably not.

No. Just no. I'd rather bring Pudge Rodriguez back than sign this scum.

[gwynnfan]

I like Pudge too. I can't believe there is not more interest in him. But calling Tek a scum is just dead wrong. The players voted him to the All Stars last year batting his weight. Scum don't get respect like that.

[Dogdaze]

According to the Globe the Red Sox have made a formal offer to Varitek.


According to a baseball source, the Sox have formally presented an offer to Varitek’s agent, Scott Boras, that could appease the catcher’s desire for a second guaranteed season. While the precise value or term of the proposal was unclear, the Sox could ensure Varitek a second year by guaranteeing it outright or making it attainable through an option.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/sox_make_offer.html

[Evangelion]

I like Pudge too. I can't believe there is not more interest in him. But calling Tek a scum is just dead wrong. The players voted him to the All Stars last year batting his weight. Scum don't get respect like that.
Ivan Rodriguez is declining. Not to mention he's never seem like a "Team first!" type of player during his career. What made Rodriguez so appealing was his offense, which has decline dramatically from his peak. He would have more interest, if he wasn't set on being a starter. As a backup, he's not the worst addition, but as a starter? Yeah, I wouldn't want him starting at this point of his career.

According to the Globe the Red Sox have made a formal offer to Varitek.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/sox_make_offer.html
I hope the team doesn't spend too much on Varitek. Resigning Varitek being a good or bad move depends on how much is committed to him.

[gwynnfan]

Ivan Rodriguez is declining. Not to mention he's never seem like a "Team first!" type of player during his career. What made Rodriguez so appealing was his offense, which has decline dramatically from his peak. He would have more interest, if he wasn't set on being a starter. As a backup, he's not the worst addition, but as a starter? Yeah, I wouldn't want him starting at this point of his career.

I hope the team doesn't spend too much on Varitek. Resigning Varitek being a good or bad move depends on how much is committed to him.

Pudge is declining but he is still one of the best defensive catchers in baseball. You can argue that he is between the best and 3rd best catcher in the last 50 years. No full time catcher has been better at CS/SB and lowest SB rate per inning then Pudge. Not even close, there is 2x's more distance between Him and 2nd place ( Bench ) then 2nd and 3/4 place, 5th and below are a long way below. Also a career .301 hitter. If he would retire now or stay above .300 he might be the first 100% Hall of Fame member. ( some stupid voters won't vote for Maddux )

Saying all that the Sox still will not sign him instead of Tek. Fans would rather either have tek or a young catcher with lots of potential.

[maximum jack]

All 4 of the pitching coaches he mentioned as the best were all once his pitching coach. No mention of anybody he never played with, kinda of hinky.

How could he reliably comment about a coach he's never worked with :sigh:

[gwynnfan]

Curt's quote was "John ( Farrell ) is the best pitching coach alive (though Dick Bosman and Mark Connor rank right up there, and Bob Welch was awesome). "

Schilling basically played for 4 clubs ( Houston was only 75 innings ) Those were his pitching coaches. He stated " best alive " not 4 good guys I've worked with. He has been in the MLB for 20 years, played with hundreds of pitchers. You don't think he knows about any other pitching coaches. I have never worked with Joe Torre but I can make a safe bet he is on almost every top 10 lists of best managers in baseball. Curt said that Gabe Kapler is going to make a big difference for the Rays. He likes Gabe that is why he said it. He did not say that Mets getting Putz and K-Rod or Cubs getting Bradley, Miles and Gathright is going to make a big difference.

I like the loyalty but you have to remember that when you hear or read anything that he says.

[DoubleX]

Ivan Rodriguez is declining. Not to mention he's never seem like a "Team first!" type of player during his career. What made Rodriguez so appealing was his offense, which has decline dramatically from his peak. He would have more interest, if he wasn't set on being a starter. As a backup, he's not the worst addition, but as a starter? Yeah, I wouldn't want him starting at this point of his career.

If Rodriguez was auditioning for a job with the Yankees last season, he failed miserably. Some say he has a selfish attitude, while others note that winning has often followed him. The Rangers in the mid/late 90s were as good as they've ever been, the Marlins won the World Series in '03 during his only year there, and his signing with the Tigers was a big step towards their return to respectability and eventual pennant win. So his presence, at least in his prime, does seem to have had a positive effect.

As for his skills, they have definitely diminished since his peak, but he's still an above-average all around catcher. For instance, last year he finished 5th in the AL in Win Shares by a catcher, and that was despite being a part-timer (and a bad one at that) with the Yankees for two months. Defensively, he finished 4th in the AL in Win Shares (one spot ahead of Varitek and in about 20 less games).

[Imgran]

The Twins won the pennant in '06. That's why the best-record Yankees matched up against the Tigers in the first round.

[bakes781]

http://cbslocalblogs.prospero.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?webtag=WBZ_RedSoxBlog

Dan Roche believes the offer is between $4-6 Million with an option for a 2nd.

[Dogdaze]

According to the Boston Globe the Red Sox FO has given Varitek a deadline of Saturday 01/31/09 with a pair of contract options to choose from.


Jason Varitek filed for free agency more than three months ago. By the end of the day Saturday, we should all know whether the Red Sox catcher and captain will be returning to the team this year.

A baseball source confirmed this morning that the Red Sox have presented Varitek with a Jan. 31 deadline to accept or decline their most recent proposal, which gave the player a pair of options to choose from. According to another source, Varitek has the choice of picking between either a straight one-year, $5 million contract or a one-year offer for a guaranteed $5 million with a dual option for 2010. (Ed. note: This updated information was added to the post at 11:06 a.m.)

In the latter scenario, the proposal affords the Sox a $5 million option on Varitek for the 2010 campaign. Should the team decline to exercise the option, Varitek subsequently can return to the team at a salary of $3 million, essentially guaranteeing him $8 million over two seasons.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/varitek_deadlin.html

[clipper]

What an insult. OK he made a mistake not taking the arbitration. But I put some of the blame on $cott Bora$. But to offer your captain 5M/1 yr and not even the second year (team option) for 5M is terrible. Then you put a deadline Saturday. (Don't let the door hit you on the way out) You low ball every player . I think you never intend to sign Tek, put on a smile, and going to trade Buchholtz for Salty. This organization will never have another Ted, Jim Rice or Yaz.

Clipper

[bakes781]

Oh please! Did your team not just "low ball" one of your greatest pitchers of all time in Andy Pettitte for roughly the same amount?

Last I checked we've won 2 WS titles since your last one. So I'd say the organiztion is doing just fine. And the fact that we've built from within is the very reason we're going to remain above you for years to come.

[Boston Boxer]

What an insult. OK he made a mistake not taking the arbitration. But I put some of the blame on $cott Bora$. But to offer your captain 5M/1 yr and not even the second year (team option) for 5M is terrible. Then you put a deadline Saturday. (Don't let the door hit you on the way out) You low ball every player . I think you never intend to sign Tek, put on a smile, and going to trade Buchholtz for Salty. This organization will never have another Ted, Jim Rice or Yaz.

Clipper

are you frickin crazy...just because we dont over pay for all our players...he should have taken the money that was offered in arb. I blame Boras too, but you get what you get. Take your holier than thou with you back to the Yankee forum.

[clipper]

Oh please! Did your team not just "low ball" one of your greatest pitchers of all time in Andy Pettitte for roughly the same amount?



No. We offered him 10.5M/1 yr (a great offer) that he turned down because of Henderick agents. But we offered him 5.5M with 6.5M incentives (just like Theo did with Penny on innings pitched) so he will probably get 11-12M. Tek will get 5M period. Brian did a great compromise because Andy wanted to save face and we wanted Andy in our new cathedral.

(You think we are going to offer our captain Jeter 5M in 2011?)

DX may be correct if Po's shoulder doesn't heal and if Tek is still available - we would love to have Tek. I don't like the BoSox but always admired Tek play. He's smart, too, to get in a fight with A Rod with a catcher's mask on. Fun. Hook him up with A Rod's ex.

PS/ I only came back to clarify Andy's contract. Not a low ball contract fo 4 (poss 5) pitcher.

(the WS's is old)

Clipper

[Boston Boxer]

No. We offered him 10.5M/1 yr (a great offer) that he turned down because of Henderick agents. But we offered him 5.5M with 6.5M incentives (just like Theo did with Penny on innings pitched) so he will probably get 11-12M. Tek will get 5M period. Brian did a great compromise because Andy wanted to save face and we wanted Andy in our new cathedral.

(You think we are going to offer our captain Jeter 5M in 2011?)

DX may be correct if Po's shoulder doesn't heal and if Tek is still available - we would love to have Tek. I don't like the BoSox but always admired Tek play. He's smart, too, to get in a fight with A Rod with a catcher's mask on. Fun. Hook him up with A Rod's ex.

PS/ I only came back to clarify Andy's contract. Not a low ball contract fo 4 (poss 5) pitcher.

(the WS's is old)

Clipper

Yankee fans have an excuse for everthing. Cashman compromised, but Theo is low balling? In 2011 Jeter will be overpaid by the Yanks because they are an emotional franchise...the sox do not over pay because they can separate business from personal feelings. Jeter's skills will be worth $5M in 2011, but he will get $15M just because he is a "true Yankee".

the WS's comment is only old because we have won and you have not. How many years did we have to hear about your 26 world titles.

[gwynnfan]

What an insult. OK he made a mistake not taking the arbitration. But I put some of the blame on $cott Bora$. But to offer your captain 5M/1 yr and not even the second year (team option) for 5M is terrible. Then you put a deadline Saturday. (Don't let the door hit you on the way out) You low ball every player . I think you never intend to sign Tek, put on a smile, and going to trade Buchholtz for Salty. This organization will never have another Ted, Jim Rice or Yaz.

Clipper

What about Tek. Team offered him arbitration. Willing to pay a guy who can't hit 10-12 mil for one year and he walked away from them. You blame the Sox. They only did that because of respect. They offered him 5 mil, 3/5 mil 2nd year option. For a guy who walked away from them. A contract that cost them getting a draft pick. For a guy who Gammons said is worth at most 2 mil. For a guy no other team would give up a draft pick for.

Blame Boras all you want. Tek is a big boy now and made his own decision to walk away. He was the greedy ungrateful guy who turned down arbitration. Was stupid enough to walk away from promotional opportunities leaving the Sox. How much time does he need to accept a contract. What, for the last few months he has not been weighing his possibilities. Are the Sox supposed to wait until opening day to decide on what's best for their team. What's best for their team is to let him sign with Phily for 2 mil and get someone who can bat higher then his weight and maybe even throw someone out.

[Dogdaze]

What an insult. OK he made a mistake not taking the arbitration. But I put some of the blame on $cott Bora$. But to offer your captain 5M/1 yr and not even the second year (team option) for 5M is terrible. Then you put a deadline Saturday. (Don't let the door hit you on the way out) You low ball every player . I think you never intend to sign Tek, put on a smile, and going to trade Buchholtz for Salty. This organization will never have another Ted, Jim Rice or Yaz.

Clipper



No. We offered him 10.5M/1 yr (a great offer) that he turned down because of Henderick agents. But we offered him 5.5M with 6.5M incentives (just like Theo did with Penny on innings pitched) so he will probably get 11-12M. Tek will get 5M period. Brian did a great compromise because Andy wanted to save face and we wanted Andy in our new cathedral.

(You think we are going to offer our captain Jeter 5M in 2011?)

DX may be correct if Po's shoulder doesn't heal and if Tek is still available - we would love to have Tek. I don't like the BoSox but always admired Tek play. He's smart, too, to get in a fight with A Rod with a catcher's mask on. Fun. Hook him up with A Rod's ex.

PS/ I only came back to clarify Andy's contract. Not a low ball contract fo 4 (poss 5) pitcher.

(the WS's is old)

Clipper

As far as I’m concerned the Yankees offer to Pettitte is very similar to the offer the Red Sox gave to Tek. Both were offered less then they made the previous year and for good reason, both are not as good as they once were. Your argument that the Yankees compromised on Pettitte and the Red Sox are “low balling” Varitek makes no sense at all.

You believe the Red Sox should offer more to Tek because he’s our captain and that the Yankees would never offer your captain, Jeter a lower amount.

I seem to recall at the end of 1988 the Yankees letting their captain, Willie Randolph walk and signing Steve Sax to take his place, so don’t give me this stuff about insulting your captain or how the Yankees wouldn’t do that to their captain.

[efin98]

Final deadline for signing the Red Sox contract(one year or one year plus dual options) is 8:30 AM on Friday the 30th.

No more negotiations, no more BS- either he signs with the team at the offered contract or he is done with Boston.

[bakes781]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/boras_sox_expec.html

there's still hope

[bakes781]

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?

SI.com is reporting that Jason Varitek is on the verge of signing a two-year deal to stay with the Red Sox.

[Westlake]

I wish the hope would go away already. He can't hit anymore, he can't throw out runners, and he just got a year older. Save the $5 mil on something useful.


* - Varitek hit .157 with runners in scoring position and 2 outs in 2008 (8-51) after hitting just .162 (12-74) in those situations in 2007, the 9th and 10th worst such seasons in Red Sox history (since ’74 at least). His .160 average over the last two seasons in those situations is the 2nd lowest in the majors (min. 100 AB):

.147 – Andruw Jones
.160 – Jason Varitek
.168 – Rickie Weeks

* - In 2008, Varitek batted .119 against “fireballers” (pitchers who averaged more than one strikeout per inning), the second lowest such average in the majors (min. 60 such PA):

.071 – Geovanni Soto, CHC
.119 – Jason Varitek, BOS (7-59)
.121 – Jim Thome, CHW

* - Varitek’s .302 OBP at Fenway in 2008 was the 3rd lowest seasonal mark by a Red Sock since 1997 (min. 200 home PA):

.271 – Shea Hillenbrand, 2001
.301 – Shea Hillenbrand, 2002
.302 – Jason Varitek, 2008
.305 – Darren Lewis, 1999

* - Varitek’s career average from Sept 1 on is now just .229 and over the last four seasons it’s .201, the lowest such average in the majors during that span (min. 300 total Sept/Oct PA over the last 4 seasons):

.201 – Jason Varitek
.205 – Mike Cameron
.214 – Pedro Feliz
.216 – Jason Giambi

* - With the bases loaded, Varitek has just 125 RBI in 192 AB (0.651 RBI/AB), the lowest such RBI/AB average since they began tracking the stat in 1974 (min. 140 career AB with bases loaded):

0.651 – Jason Varitek
0.653 – Enos Cabell
0.663 – Tony Pena

[bakes781]

So apparently the deal is the same as mentioned above but with a $2 mil incentive bonus in 2010 if he plays 80 or more games.

[Westlake]

I really hope he isn't playing 80 games in 2010. Unless he gets on the juice or has some kind of epiphany where he learns how to hit a fastball again.

[Boston Boxer]

The Tek deal is a stop gap until we get Joe Mauer next offseason.

[DoubleX]

And the fact that we've built from within is the very reason we're going to remain above you for years to come.

The Sox and Yankees will actually be really close in featuring homegrown talent next year. Both teams right now look to feature four homegrown everyday position players, or 50% of the lineup. The Yankees will have Posada, Cano, Jeter and Gardner/Cabrera, while the Sox will have Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowrie, and Ellsbury (Varitek was a Mariners product). The Sox of course have a long-term advantage here as their players are younger on the whole.

In the rotation, the Yankees right now project to have one more homegrown player than the Sox (two if you count Pettitte). The Yankees will have Wang and Chamberlain, and one might count Pettitte as well, while the Sox have just Lester. Granted, Buchholz and Masterson are in the wings as well, but the Yankees have Hughes, Kennedy, and Aceves likely to make a number of starts this year. In the bullpen, both teams have homegrown closers, Rivera for the Yankees and Papelbon for the Sox, but the rest of the Yankees bullpen is mostly homegrown, while the Sox is largely a patchwork of veterans. Given the bullpen difference, come opening day, I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees featured a few more homegrown players than the Sox. Of course though, as the season progresses, you never know what players will come up from the farm and how much they'll contribute.

[riredsox]

You're forgetting Javy Lopez and Manny Delcarmen in our bullpen, and Michael Bowden waiting for the call. And for some reason, people keep forgetting Charlie Zink.

[DoubleX]

You're forgetting Javy Lopez and Manny Delcarmen in our bullpen, and Michael Bowden waiting for the call. And for some reason, people keep forgetting Charlie Zink.

I didn't forget them, but the Yankees look to have a more homegrown bullpen than the Sox. Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez, David Robertson, and Phil Coke are all expected to contribute this year, with Mark Melancon and J.B. Cox not too far away.

Also, the Red Sox are Lopez's third Major League team. He previously played three seasons with the Rockies and Diamondbacks.

[gwynnfan]

The Sox and Yankees will actually be really close in featuring homegrown talent next year. Both teams right now look to feature four homegrown everyday position players, or 50% of the lineup. The Yankees will have Posada, Cano, Jeter and Gardner/Cabrera, while the Sox will have Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowrie, and Ellsbury (Varitek was a Mariners product). The Sox of course have a long-term advantage here as their players are younger on the whole.

In the rotation, the Yankees right now project to have one more homegrown player than the Sox (two if you count Pettitte). The Yankees will have Wang and Chamberlain, and one might count Pettitte as well, while the Sox have just Lester. Granted, Buchholz and Masterson are in the wings as well, but the Yankees have Hughes, Kennedy, and Aceves likely to make a number of starts this year. In the bullpen, both teams have homegrown closers, Rivera for the Yankees and Papelbon for the Sox, but the rest of the Yankees bullpen is mostly homegrown, while the Sox is largely a patchwork of veterans. Given the bullpen difference, come opening day, I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees featured a few more homegrown players than the Sox. Of course though, as the season progresses, you never know what players will come up from the farm and how much they'll contribute.

The fact that 3 of them were brought up 15 years ago and are the highest paid players in their position does not help with your claim.

Jed Lowrie will play more than Cabrera and Gardner combined.

Papelbon, Masterson, Delcarmen, are home grown and will pitch way more quality innings then your so called young staff and the home grown ones stink. ( except the Riv from 15 yrs ago )

BTW, in case you didn't know the Yankees bullpen average age is 30, Sox 29. Yanks average years experience 6.3, Sox 3.3. Also does not hold much weight for your argument.

[DoubleX]

The fact that 3 of them were brought up 15 years ago and are the highest paid players in their position does not help with your claim.

Jed Lowrie will play more than Cabrera and Gardner combined.

Papelbon, Masterson, Delcarmen, are home grown and will pitch way more quality innings then your so called young staff and the home grown ones stink. ( except the Riv from 15 yrs ago )

BTW, in case you didn't know the Yankees bullpen average age is 30, Sox 29. Yanks average years experience 6.3, Sox 3.3. Also does not hold much weight for your argument.

First, how do you know Lowrie will play more than Cabrera and Gardner combined? It's quite possible that the Yankees will go with a Gardner/Cabrera platoon this year, or even just see what Gardner can do out of spring training. The team doesn't need big offense from CF and there are no other even decent defensive options, so I expect Gardner and Cabrera to get a lot of time.

Second, what are you talking about with the Yankees bullpen stinking? Ramirez and Veras both showed a great deal of promise last year in the Majors, and the Yankees have a number of young arms on the way for bullpen spots, starting with Robertson and Melancon. The Yankees will very likely feature more homegrown players in the bullpen contributing significantly this year than the Sox will, same as last year.

Third, exactly how does the experience gap help your argument? I'm also not sure where you're getting that figure from. Rivera will skew it, but after Rivera, the Yankees have just one reliever who's appeared in more than 5 Major League seasons, so your 6.3 figure is either inaccurate or very misleading. Bruney has 5 years, Veras has 3, Ramirez has 2, Albaladejo has 2, Coke has 1, Robertson has 1. Personally though, I think a little more experience would actually be helpful for both sides.

Fourth, it's difficult to project what the bullpen ages will be right now because a lot can change between now and the end of spring training. Even so, the difference between 30 and 29 doesn't amount to much.

[gwynnfan]

First, how do you know Lowrie will play more than Cabrera and Gardner combined? It's quite possible that the Yankees will go with a Gardner/Cabrera platoon this year, or even just see what Gardner can do out of spring training. The team doesn't need big offense from CF and there are no other even decent defensive options, so I expect Gardner and Cabrera to get a lot of time.

Second, what are you talking about with the Yankees bullpen stinking? Ramirez and Veras both showed a great deal of promise last year in the Majors, and the Yankees have a number of young arms on the way for bullpen spots, starting with Robertson and Melancon. The Yankees will very likely feature more homegrown players in the bullpen contributing significantly this year than the Sox will, same as last year.

Third, exactly how does the experience gap help your argument? I'm also not sure where you're getting that figure from. Rivera will skew it, but after Rivera, the Yankees have just one reliever who's appeared in more than 5 Major League seasons, so your 6.3 figure is either inaccurate or very misleading. Bruney has 5 years, Veras has 3, Ramirez has 2, Albaladejo has 2, Coke has 1, Robertson has 1. Personally though, I think a little more experience would actually be helpful for both sides.

Fourth, it's difficult to project what the bullpen ages will be right now because a lot can change between now and the end of spring training. Even so, the difference between 30 and 29 doesn't amount to much.

We don't know for sure who is going to be in Yankees line up. Boston is pretty much set. I used ESPN's depth chart for the bull pen not your potential names. Nady, Damon, Swisher, Matsui, Cabrera, Gardner all fighting for time. With Posada getting some DH time are they all going to even make the opening day roster? They also need a utility infielder, Berroa and Ranson are their 2 optoins. I would not be surprised if they pick up someone like Alex Cintron cheap and who would be a good fit.