Under 600 in the stands, Marlins set a new Low for MLB

[GordonGecko]

Ramirez, Marlins beat Braves in front of 600 fans

MIAMI (AP) — Hanley Ramirez homered and doubled to lead the Florida Marlins past the Atlanta Braves 5-3 Wednesday in front of an incredibly sparse crowd of just 600 fans.

Fewer than 600 people were in Dolphin Stadium's bright orange and aqua seats for the first pitch, leaving most of them to reflect the afternoon sun. While the official attendance, based on tickets sold, was 11,211, the ballpark was so quiet that home-plate chatter could be heard.

Jeremy Hermida had two hits and an RBI, and three relievers kept the Braves scoreless over the final three innings to preserve the win. Doug Waechter (4-2) got his first win since July 25, and Joe Nelson pitched a perfect ninth for his first save of the season.

Braves manager Bobby Cox extended his major league ejection record to 143 on Wednesday, getting tossed in the fifth inning for arguing balls and strikes.

Kelly Johnson hit a two-run triple for the Braves, who fell to 20 games below .500.

Florida began the day eight games back of the New York Mets for first place in the NL East. The Marlins avoided falling to .500 for the first time since April 6, when they were 3-3, but would still need a historic September to catch the Mets.

The Marlins believe they still have a chance, although their fans appear to have already conceded.

Some Florida players even joked in the locker room before the game about trying to guess the total number of fans, throwing out figures between 200-500. Florida is used to a lack of support, but even Wednesday's game was a stretch for the Marlins, who are by far the majors worst in attendance with an average between 16,000 and 17,000 fans.

Cody Ross hit an RBI single, and Ramirez scored on a wild pitch by Vladimir Nunez to give the Marlins a 5-3 lead in the seventh. Braves reliever Will Ohman (4-1) took his first loss of the season, giving up one run and one hit in one-plus inning.

Jorge Campillo gave up three runs on four hits in five innings for Atlanta and hasn't won since Aug. 8 at Arizona. Marlins starter Chris Volstad allowed three runs on six hits and five walks in six innings.

Ramirez gave the Marlins a 1-0 lead in the third inning with his 28th home run of the season.

Johnson's two-RBI triple in the fourth put the Braves ahead 2-1. Johnson scored a pitch later on a double by Jeff Francoeur to stretch Atlanta's lead to 3-1.

Jeremy Hermida and Josh Willingham had RBI singles in the fourth for Florida to tie the game at 3.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gpGoC96U5KDxliAvfKCvfSfQ4DpwD92VIUAO0

[JohnCropp]

When Bobby Cox got kicked out of the game, you could just about hear everything he said to the ump during the local Braves radio-cast.

... as well as everything that was being said by the 600!

[OBomb]

I realize the Marlins are not good (as in playoff contenders), but they're not that bad. 600? That's absolutely ridiculous. Whether it's this or the fact that the AL East-leading Tampa Bay Rays are averaging something under 20,000 a game. Does Florida just not like Major League Baseball? My Padres are so much worse than the Marlins and yet they might crack 2 million in attendance which is just mind boggling.

This can't be good for a team that wants/is going to be getting a new ballpark.

[Toy Boat]

What I don't get is why would 9600 people pay for tickets they aren't going to use?

[JT7]

Im sorry but Florida should have just remained a Spring Training state. It seems as if no body cares about any of the home teams! And when they do care, they forget right away. Marlins being one of the quickest expansion teams in MLB to win a world championship and now they can only draw what can be compared to a sell out crowd for a little league game. Although, I do blame that on management and ownership with the after championship fire sales they seem to have....But even Tampa Bay...what a turn around and they still can't draw a true sell out crowd....those teams have to got to get out of there!!! TODAY! Contract or relocated!

[marlins739]

Whose idea was it to schedule a Wednesday day game against a 4th-place team in September? I for one sure wouldn't have gone to that game. It was hotter than hell out yesterday. This isn't even the Marlins' all-time low: about 350 people were counted for a Marlins-Nats afternoon makeup last year. In my opinion, the Marlins should never play day games, or at least no 1:10 starts. 4 is pushing it, but at least some of the stadium is in the shade. There's very little shade at the Dolph. Right now, the Weather Channel says it's 85, and the sun isn't even up yet in South Florida

[GordonGecko]

What I don't get is why would 9600 people pay for tickets they aren't going to use?

The Mets have a similar problem but nowhere near as bad. At Shea, on many nights there's only 50% of the seats filled when the announced paid attendance is 50k. That's mainly because people bought plans only to get premium games and citi field priority.

I really wish teams were forced to disclose actual people in the seats

[hellborn]

Whose idea was it to schedule a Wednesday day game against a 4th-place team in September? I for one sure wouldn't have gone to that game. It was hotter than hell out yesterday. This isn't even the Marlins' all-time low: about 350 people were counted for a Marlins-Nats afternoon makeup last year. In my opinion, the Marlins should never play day games, or at least no 1:10 starts. 4 is pushing it, but at least some of the stadium is in the shade. There's very little shade at the Dolph. Right now, the Weather Channel says it's 85, and the sun isn't even up yet in South Florida

Well, they sure don't know what the standings are going to be when they make the schedule before the season. The Braves were expected by many to contend this year.
Day games are often scheduled during the week to give teams extra time to travel, but the Marlins don't play in StL until Friday, and the Braves just had to get back to Atlanta for tonight, a pretty short hop. Does seem like there was no real reason for this to be a day game. Funny, though, the Bosox still sold out their day game against the crummy Orioles yesterday to tie the Indians for most consecutive home sellouts...
:cap:

I think the Marlins need a better team name...even Rays is a lot cooler than Marlins. Beachcombers? Lifeguards? Cubanos? Barracuda? How about just the Miami Beaches?
:cap:
Tongue in cheek, of course...don't hate me, Marlins fans.
:highfive:

[GordonGecko]

...How about just the Miami Beaches?
:cap:
Tongue in cheek, of course...don't hate me, Marlins fans.
:highfive:

Marlins what? :hide:

[hellborn]

GG, stirring that pot!!!
:cap:

I just read that Fenway was only about half full for the "sellout" yesterday...looked better than that on TV. That's pretty disappointing, actually...I do have to admit that I was invited to the game and couldn't even think about going. Last minute frenzy to ship something out at work, didn't have a vaca day to burn, wife was in a bad mood...

[PeteU]

Let's face it--if they still counted attendance via turnstile count instead of tickets sold, a lot of teams wouldn't be proud of their numbers.

With the exception of opening day, weekday day games suck in general, unless the stadium is located right downtown within walking distance to offices.

[Jim Vaz]

#1 there should be NO weekday games in Florida. Thats ridiculous. Not only is it hot as hell, but as we see nobody shows up.
Also a huge factor is that Florida kids went back to school just about 2 weeks ago so its even more absurb to have a day baseball game when no kids will be attending and all day camps and such are closed.

Pretty shocking too when you consider the nice weather and the stadiums proximity to the local suburban areas that more people don't show up.

And for anyone who thinks that a new Miami stadium is the answer on that, you're dead wrong. It would have drawn about 3000 more people to yesterdays game, maybe.

Not to mention and don't take this personally Floridians, but Florida is a TERRIBLE professional sports state! Really should have never put baseball in South Florida.

[aqib]

Let's face it--if they still counted attendance via turnstile count instead of tickets sold, a lot of teams wouldn't be proud of their numbers.

With the exception of opening day, weekday day games suck in general, unless the stadium is located right downtown within walking distance to offices.

Let me guess, the fans are still fuming at Huizenga for trading Bobby Bonilla. There are other teams with not so great locations, 600 people showing up is pretty weak. Especially since its the second time in a couple of years that the Marlins have had less than 1000 in the park.

[six4three]

Let me guess, the fans are still fuming at Huizenga for trading Bobby Bonilla. There are other teams with not so great locations, 600 people showing up is pretty weak. Especially since its the second time in a couple of years that the Marlins have had less than 1000 in the park.

Agreed. The excuses can come out in full force, but no amount of excuses can wipe away numbers like that.

[yankies4life]

oh im dying to see some pictures. i know that the rays have trouble filling the trop, but 600 fans, thats pretty pitiful. i wonder with such a terrible fan base, where not even the first place rays selling out, one has to wonder if florida could keep up having 2 MLB teams in town.

[Jim Vaz]

Florida and especially South Florida has always been a mediocre pro sports state. Obviously college sports is MUCH more popular and relevent (Hurricanes, Gators, Seminoles). Even the Dolphins who yes have struggled that last several years, have had a hard time getting fans into games and that is in good years. Its not like the Dolphins are some cruddy franchise either. You're talking about one of the NFL's more premier franchises, or at least once was.

I've gone to many Panthers games when visiting down there, and even when the team was in the thick of a playoff race they would be lucky to have a few thousand fans in that beautiful arena in Sunrise.
I remember back in Christmas 2006 how bad I felt for the Panthers. it was vacation week and all the folks form Quebec were down there. Ironically the Canadians were in town. The entire place was sold out. When the Panthers came out for introductions, the entire place was booing! Thats all you need to know. :rofl:

[J.R.]

With the exception of opening day, weekday day games suck in general, unless the stadium is located right downtown within walking distance to offices.

Cubs fans would differ about the day games.

Steve Stone used to say that great tickets sold numbers are a tribute to marketing, but that they say next to nothing about a fanbase's health. With so many corporate tickets and absentee season holders out there, fervor has to be strong to get all those seats used consistently.

[PeteU]

oh im dying to see some pictures. i know that the rays have trouble filling the trop, but 600 fans, thats pretty pitiful. i wonder with such a terrible fan base, where not even the first place rays selling out, one has to wonder if florida could keep up having 2 MLB teams in town.

I'll give as much weight to your opinion as I'll give anyone who can't manage to spell the name of his favorite team. Personally, I like to follow the Oreos and Marlons. The Raise are fun to watch as well.

And I would check the other thread where I bring up attendance at Yankee Stadium from 1994-1996 for three seasons with two first place teams and a wild card winner. For the biggest metro area in the country, it's somewhat along the lines of disappointing.

[StadiumPage]

The CBA actually requires most "getaway" games to be day games. I think the rule is if either team has a flight more than 1.5 hours following the game, that game must be scheduled prior to 5PM.

There are exceptions (if the game is on ESPN), but for the most part the last game of a weekday series is a day game if travel is involved.

[GordonGecko]

The CBA actually requires most "getaway" games to be day games. I think the rule is if either team has a flight more than 1.5 hours following the game, that game must be scheduled prior to 5PM.

There are exceptions (if the game is on ESPN), but for the most part the last game of a weekday series is a day game if travel is involved.

The Marlins have Thursday off but I guess the Braves have about a 1h45m flight to the state next door

[Sean O]

Why, exactly, does Miami deserve hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to keep a team that's won 2 WS in 11 years, while I have to buy Sox tickets in November for a September game?

[Saltzy23]

This really does amaze me. 600 is a number Ive never seen before....

2 points if I may. If any of you guys remember the entire FREAKING stadium leaving during a rain delay in the 2003 WS then you know what kind of fans they have. I mean, the THOUGHT of walking out on a WS game?!?....I just couldnt imagine that ever EVERRRRRR happening in any other city/state...maybe a few other crap ass cities, MAYBE..., but overall thats ridiculous...

The other. Ive been saying for years that I thought having no fans was actually GOOD for their team performance. I mean when do you guys do your jobs better? When you have your boss all over you, and the pressures on, and yadda yadda....or when you can just work how you wanna work, and no one questions anything....at least for me is the latter....They just go out every day and play. Win 12-0, lose 12-0....no one freaking cares...no stress...

[PeteU]

Why, exactly, does Miami deserve hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to keep a team that's won 2 WS in 11 years, while I have to buy Sox tickets in November for a September game?

Why not?

Tend to whatever issues you have with Boston. I really don't care what goes on up there because I don't live there and I'm not a Red Sox fan.

Whatever needs to get done to get a new ballpark in South Florida needs to get done. Most of it is done--the only remaining matter is the disposition of a lawsuit.

[PeteU]

This really does amaze me. 600 is a number Ive never seen before....

2 points if I may. If any of you guys remember the entire FREAKING stadium leaving during a rain delay in the 2003 WS then you know what kind of fans they have. I mean, the THOUGHT of walking out on a WS game?!?....I just couldnt imagine that ever EVERRRRRR happening in any other city/state...maybe a few other crap ass cities, MAYBE..., but overall thats ridiculous...




What in God's good name are you talking about? Do you have any facts to support this?

[Saltzy23]

What in God's good name are you talking about? Do you have any facts to support this?
Yea....my memory of things that took place less than 5 years ago...

Im in NYC, during that delay they had live local reporters outside interviewing people and giving updates and whatnot during the delay...

I'll NEVER forget(being that my roommate at the time was/is a HUUUGE Yanks fan, and had steam coming out of his ears) us sitting there watching in the background as all SORTS of people were filing out of the place. They even interviewed a few. One said "It was getting late, and they didnt wanna get home too late not, especially not knowing when the game was gonna restart"...

[Jim Vaz]

What in God's good name are you talking about? Do you have any facts to support this?

Well I'm not sure either, if they just left or went for shelter. If I remember corectly in the 03 series, that rain was very strong.

[PeteU]

Yea....my memory of things that took place less than 5 years ago...

Im in NYC, during that delay they had live local reporters outside interviewing people and giving updates and whatnot during the delay...

I'll NEVER forget(being that my roommate at the time was/is a HUUUGE Yanks fan, and had steam coming out of his ears) us sitting there watching in the background as all SORTS of people were filing out of the place. They even interviewed a few. One said "It was getting late, and they didnt wanna get home too late not, especially not knowing when the game was gonna restart"...

Okay, so you are giving me hearsay statements from your old roommate and your own memory of 5 year old NYC news reports to try to support your own claim?

Nice. Very nice.

Perhaps you should give us a note from your old roommate.

[Saltzy23]

Well I'm not sure either, if they just left or went for shelter. If I remember corectly in the 03 series, that rain was very strong.
CMON!!!!....this site is called BASEBALL-FEVER, and youre saying its OK to leave a freaking WORLD SERIES GAME DUE TO RAIN?!?!....or any reason really, but RAIN?!?

BTW, last time I checked once you leave you cant get back in, so 'leaving/going for shelter' is 6 of one, 1/2 dozen...besides, dont you think the huge STADIUM they were walking out of may have been able to provide a roof above their heads during the storm, hmm???...Cmon dude...

[Saltzy23]

How exactly would you like to prove people walked out of a game 5 years ago?

I have NO reason to lie here. I dont think Im impressing anyone with my 'keen knowledge of people walking out of the 2003 WS'....

Im telling you I havent missed a WS game in as long as I remember. I remember that game. I remember it well. I remember watching my TV as people filed out during a rain delay during a WS game. I remember it cause it was AMAZING to me... If you dont want to believe me thats on you...

[PeteU]

CMON!!!!....this site is called BASEBALL-FEVER, and youre saying its OK to leave a freaking WORLD SERIES GAME DUE TO RAIN?!?!....or any reason really, but RAIN?!?

BTW, last time I checked once you leave you cant get back in, so 'leaving/going for shelter' is 6 of one, 1/2 dozen...besides, dont you think the huge STADIUM they were walking out of may have been able to provide a roof above their heads during the storm, hmm???...Cmon dude...

Well, unless you provide that note from your old roommate that can prove that fans were actually leaving the game for good during the rain delay, I'm still not seeing what you are getting at.

[Sean O]

Why not?

Tend to whatever issues you have with Boston. I really don't care what goes on up there because I don't live there and I'm not a Red Sox fan.

Whatever needs to get done to get a new ballpark in South Florida needs to get done. Most of it is done--the only remaining matter is the disposition of a lawsuit.

But why bother? There aren't any fans, and those that exist obviously don't care. You have an indifferent fanbase who has no interest in the product, so supply/demand is skewed. Meanwhile, Boston would make far more sense from an economic standpoint, which would help all of MLB.

A fanbase of 12-14m that holds the MLB consecutive attendance streak deserves a second team, rather than a fanbase that can't find 600 people to show up for a pennant race game.

[Jim Vaz]

CMON!!!!....this site is called BASEBALL-FEVER, and youre saying its OK to leave a freaking WORLD SERIES GAME DUE TO RAIN?!?!....or any reason really, but RAIN?!?

BTW, last time I checked once you leave you cant get back in, so 'leaving/going for shelter' is 6 of one, 1/2 dozen...besides, dont you think the huge STADIUM they were walking out of may have been able to provide a roof above their heads during the storm, hmm???...Cmon dude...

LOL

Relax. I never said it was right, all I'm saying was in reference to the Orioles fans response was that I'm "unsure" myself if fans simply went for shelter or left. Of course I wouldn't leave a WS game either, at least not until it was called whether it was 9:00 or 4:00 am.

[Saltzy23]

LOL

Relax. I never said it was right, all I'm saying was in reference to the Orioles fans response was that I'm "unsure" myself if fans simply went for shelter or left. Of course I wouldn't leave a WS game either, at least not until it was called whether it was 9:00 or 4:00 am.
I have to ask again, cause Im not understanding. They were in the stadium. I remember seeing a lot of people leaving the stadium. Whats the difference between finding shelter and leaving?

They werent gonna get back into the stadium either way...

BTW, can ANYONE else back me up here? Does NO ONE else remember this? Game 4, 2003 WS...Buhler, Buhler???

[PeteU]

But why bother? There aren't any fans, and those that exist obviously don't care. You have an indifferent fanbase who has no interest in the product, so supply/demand is skewed. Meanwhile, Boston would make far more sense from an economic standpoint, which would help all of MLB.

A fanbase of 12-14m that holds the MLB consecutive attendance streak deserves a second team, rather than a fanbase that can't find 600 people to show up for a pennant race game.

A second team in Boston in this century is fantasy land, even moreso than a third team in the New York area. That's a total nonstarter.

As for your comments on the Marlins fanbase, the potential fanbase is there. Those who comment on the poor turnout to games--which no one is disputing, myself included--are confusing the causes of a struggling franchise with the symptoms of a struggling franchise.

[PeteU]

...

BTW, can ANYONE else back me up here? Does NO ONE else remember this? Game 4, 2003 WS...Buhler, Buhler???

Perhaps because the rain delay was during Game 3, not Game 4? I'm just saying....

You remember Game 4--A-Gon serves up Jeff Weaver's offering over the left field fence in the bottom of the 12th?

So much for the "just trust my memory!" argument....

[Jim Vaz]

I have to ask again, cause Im not understanding. They were in the stadium. I remember seeing a lot of people leaving the stadium. Whats the difference between finding shelter and leaving?

They werent gonna get back into the stadium either way...

BTW, can ANYONE else back me up here? Does NO ONE else remember this? Game 4, 2003 WS...Buhler, Buhler???

You were there? You saw them exiting Dolphins Stadium (Pro Player) when the rain delay started?

WHY are we even arguing this silly point??? Holy crap!

lol

[Saltzy23]

Perhaps because the rain delay was during Game 3, not Game 4? I'm just saying....

You remember Game 4--A-Gon serves up Jeff Weaver's offering over the left field fence in the bottom of the 12th?

So much for the "just trust my memory!" argument....
HA!!...Touche my friend... I meant Game 3...it was a typo, but Im sure my word is sh*t now...as it should be...

Fine, argument over. I brought it ip to illustrate that they have the worst fan base in all of sports(for the most part)...

On a thread dedicated to a game where they drew 600 people I think its relevant...

[Sean O]

A second team in Boston in this century is fantasy land, even moreso than a third team in the New York area. That's a total nonstarter.

As for your comments on the Marlins fanbase, the potential fanbase is there. Those who comment on the poor turnout to games--which no one is disputing, myself included--are confusing the causes of a struggling franchise with the symptoms of a struggling franchise.

Bottom line: a fanbase with two championships in 11 years, that doesn't show up to a pennant race, doesn't deserve a team. I don't care if it's 120 and sunny or 20 degrees and rainy, the Marlins shouldn't exist any longer. I waited with thousands of people outside Wrigley in 15 degree weather, while snowing, just to get a wristband for the possibility of buying tickets to a Cubs game for the 2005 season. They ended up 79-83 that year.

Excuses only go so far.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Please don't confuse the fact the Marlins had a bad gate as yet another opportunity to turn this thread into a "We deserve it, you don't" self-entitlement team rant. The bullies can go back to their Shangri-La palaces without trying to further rub salt in the wound.

Thank you.

[Saltzy23]

Bottom line: a fanbase with two championships in 11 years, that doesn't show up to a pennant race, doesn't deserve a team. I don't care if it's 120 and sunny or 20 degrees and rainy, the Marlins shouldn't exist any longer. I waited with thousands of people outside Wrigley in 15 degree weather, while snowing, just to get a wristband for the possibility of buying tickets to a Cubs game for the 2005 season. They ended up 79-83 that year.

Excuses only go so far.
I think relocating is a better idea, but on the whole I agree. I mean AAA teams draw more than them. What happens if they build a new stadium and people still dont show. Then what? I know that unless the Dolphins win they dont draw that well either. The years that they are 'rebuilding' which is like 1/2 of the time the place will be a $250 Mil morbid ghost town. Even when they are winning its gonna be hit/miss...

BTW, I oficially claim Hanley Ramirez for the Mets if they scrap the Fish...

[Jim Vaz]

Whats funny is that nobody has asked the question,

WHO were those 600 die hards in the stands! I mean 600 people! lol Sounds like a lot in room size terms, but in terms of a stadium thats like having 1 person and a half in a room the size of radio city music hall.

Cmon folks, I think we should all lighten up. Its just 1 game!

[efin98]

Please don't confuse the fact the Marlins had a bad gate as yet another opportunity to turn this thread into a "We deserve it, you don't" self-entitlement team rant. The bullies can go back to their Shangri-La palaces without trying to further rub salt in the wound.

Thank you.

Everyone just go back to the dozens of threads about their favorite part of a doomed stadium rather than talk about something that actually has legs that affects the game :rolleyes:

[Saltzy23]

Whats funny is that nobody has asked the question,

WHO were those 600 die hards in the stands! I mean 600 people! lol Sounds like a lot in room size terms, but in terms of a stadium thats like having 1 person and a half in a room the size of radio city music hall.

Cmon folks, I think we should all lighten up. Its just 1 game!
I mean I always go by the philosophy of 'In a major city you should be able to sell 1,000 tickets to watch grass grow'...

600 'die hards' in all of freaking MIAMI!!!....to see a MLB game...during a playoff drive...where a lot of the population is latino...

Unnaccaptable. Sorry.

You cant use this 'isolated event' excuse. They ALWAYS draw like crap. Their big crowds are like 25,000-30,000. This just happened to be the perfect storm of crappiness. Lets not compare this to a game where there was a long delay and people bounced(not bringing up previous point). I mean Ive been at Shea after a 2 hr delay and there were maybe 2,500 there, but thats a TOTALLY different story...

[Sean O]

Please don't confuse the fact the Marlins had a bad gate as yet another opportunity to turn this thread into a "We deserve it, you don't" self-entitlement team rant. The bullies can go back to their Shangri-La palaces without trying to further rub salt in the wound.

Thank you.

It's not self-entitlement; I think Portland, OR, Des Moines, Oklahoma City, Montreal, Mexico City, Puerto Rico, Hartford, Fremont, Honolulu, Vancouver and Raleigh-Durham could get more fans. I don't think the Florida taxpayers should be forced to pay for a retractable roof stadium (since the conditions are ostensibly impossible for baseball without one) when they are disinterested in the team. Or, at least, building it on speculation is a stupid risk.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Everyone just go back to the dozens of threads about their favorite part of a doomed stadium rather than talk about something that actually has legs that affects the game :rolleyes:

What does self-entitled bullying have to do with the game? I have no problem with the sparse attendance for this game being discussed, as long as that's what's going on. The continuing "You don't deserve it, we do" theme that always creeps up whenever Florida baseball is mentioned is what I have a problem with. It's not for anyone here to tell anyone else they don't matter, which is essentially going on.

Saltzy and Jim, I think you can be counted on for putting a humorous spin on whatever the situation is, reality or otherwise.

[Saltzy23]

What does self-entitled bullying have to do with the game? I have no problem with the sparse attendance for this game being discussed, as long as that's what's going on. The continuing "You don't deserve it, we do" theme that always creeps up whenever Florida baseball is mentioned is what I have a problem with. It's not for anyone here to tell anyone else they don't matter, which is essentially going on.

Saltzy and Jim, I think you can be counted on for putting a humorous spin on whatever the situation is, reality or otherwise.
Uhh...thanks I guess...

Anyway, its not a personal 'YOU' dont deserve it to any one individual. Its a 'In the grand scheme of things, the baseball marketplace in South Florida has PROVEN over the course of 15 years that it (even after the teams have been successful/participated in playoff drives, and even won the WS) that it is incapable of supporting baseball over the course of long 162 game seasons' Therefore with other cities as better options(as stated), that WILL support the team, exploring these options makes good business sense...Thats all...

[PeteU]

Cmon folks, I think we should all lighten up. Its just 1 game!

Not to mention if--for whatever reason--somebody 10-20 years down the road looks at the box score without looking at any news reports from the game, they'll see the paid attendance and shrug it off as nothing unusual. We're not talking about paid attendance here, which is the only thing that goes on the record for posterity (like it or not).

Regardless of this one game, the situation is this: money for the new stadium is in place. Barring a ruling against the Marlins in a court of law, the Marlins will build their new stadium and have a long term lease with the city.

If after the new stadium is built we still see crowds like this, then the criticism is legitimate. I'll be happy to agree to that. But I'm not going to be of the position to criticize a franchise and a fanbase that hasn't been given a sense of stability in a decade.

[PeteU]

It's not self-entitlement; I think Portland, OR, Des Moines, Oklahoma City, Montreal, Mexico City, Puerto Rico, Hartford, Fremont, Honolulu, Vancouver and Raleigh-Durham could get more fans. I don't think the Florida taxpayers should be forced to pay for a retractable roof stadium (since the conditions are ostensibly impossible for baseball without one) when they are disinterested in the team. Or, at least, building it on speculation is a stupid risk.

None of those cities (except Fremont, who might be getting the A's) are currently prepared to host major league ball for the long term. No stadium funding, no team. Case closed.

The Marlins have stadium funding on the table. Whether you disagree with the concept of publicly funding the stadium is totally irrelevant because that's just one man's opinion without any authority to change the situation.

It's all a moot point.

[Saltzy23]

Not to mention if--for whatever reason--somebody 10-20 years down the road looks at the box score without looking at any news reports from the game, they'll see the paid attendance and shrug it off as nothing unusual. We're not talking about paid attendance here, which is the only thing that goes on the record for posterity (like it or not).

Regardless of this one game, the situation is this: money for the new stadium is in place. Barring a ruling against the Marlins in a court of law, the Marlins will build their new stadium and have a long term lease with the city.

If after the new stadium is built we still see crowds like this, then the criticism is legitimate. I'll be happy to agree to that. But I'm not going to be of the position to criticize a franchise and a fanbase that hasn't been given a sense of stability in a decade.
Fair point...

But as far as risk/reward???...You really think it wise to build a multi, MULTI million dollar stadium for a team whos fan base that may or (as you even admit) MAY NOT show up?

Yea, the upside is great. Renewed interest in the team. Building up the neighborhood. You give the team a shot at long term success. Etc...etc...etc...

The downside. A brand new baseball stadium, with no home team at the cost of hundreds of millilons to taxpayers...all with almost no possibility of a team moving to fill the place. At least not for a while...

Does this seem like a good wager to you?

[PeteU]

Fair point...

But as far as risk/reward???...You really think it wise to build a multi, MULTI million dollar stadium for a team whos fan base that may or (as you even admit) MAY NOT show up?

Yea, the upside is great. Renewed interest in the team. Building up the neighborhood. You give the team a shot at long term success. Etc...etc...etc...

The downside. A brand new baseball stadium, with no home team at the cost of hundreds of millilons to taxpayers...all with almost no possibility of a team moving to fill the place. At least not for a while...

Does this seem like a good wager to you?

For the record, I do think the new stadium will go along way in terms of attendance. It indicates a long term investment by the Marlins ownership in the community--they won't be going around making veiled threats to move the team if they don't get a new stadium, because they will have a new stadium. And that investment will hopefully carry over into the front office position on signing players to long term contracts.

I know people might be sick of me saying the same thing over and over again, but I'll shout it from the mountain-tops: All the Marlins need is a sense of stability, and the fanbase should embrace the team accordingly.

The downside isn't any worse than the Marlins moving to some other market that's not tested in supporting a team (or even in fantasy land, a market that's not tested in supporting one more team that it already has). And given that Miami has the money on the table and the others don't, it's the only logical choice.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Right now, it appears the Marlins are doing what is necessary for their survival, better location, better ownership, what have you. As they are taking it upon themselves to improve their situation, as opposed to just packing up and going away, then let them have their try. Having a team isn't a right, for what ever reasons the powers that be chose Florida over other areas then allowed for ridiculous situation after ridiculous situation. Whether it should have come to this or not, it did.

Right now, MLB has the luxury to allow for this. I'm thankful for that. Baseball can work in Florida in a stable, competitive environment. Being such a latecomer outside of smaller scale spring-training games has been a detriment. Being thrown to the wolves ala Boston and New York like the Rays were certainly didn't help them. Having bottom-line owners and a bad stadium in the middle of nowhere hasn't helped the Marlins one bit. Improving upon that should. If it doesn't work after getting as many of the necessary tools to succeed as they're ever going to get, then MLB deserves all the egg on its face it can get for trying it in South Florida.

I certainly don't think they envisioned NYC or Chicago numbers, nor should anyone even hint that should be what's going on. That doesn't happen outside NYC and Chicago so why should it in South Florida? The product has succeeded on the field in spite of itself. Maybe just now they're trying to make the rest of the package catch up.

[GordonGecko]

The CBA actually requires most "getaway" games to be day games. I think the rule is if either team has a flight more than 1.5 hours following the game, that game must be scheduled prior to 5PM.

There are exceptions (if the game is on ESPN), but for the most part the last game of a weekday series is a day game if travel is involved.

One thing though - how do you explain the Yankees playing in Tampa Bay tonight at 7:10 pm and then flying diagonally across the country to play Seattle tomorrow? You can't get much more of a longer flight than that in the lower 48.

[Sean O]

I know people might be sick of me saying the same thing over and over again, but I'll shout it from the mountain-tops: All the Marlins need is a sense of stability, and the fanbase should embrace the team accordingly.


That's ridiculous, and self-fulfilling. Fans don't support the team because they're not sure of its viability, which they could guarantee by actually attending games. You have had two world championships in under a dozen years, and a totally ungrateful fanbase that doesn't seem to care. The Mariners, Padres and Rangers have never seen a world championship. I see a fanbase that doesn't want to deal with a potential 20 minute rain delay to see a team in the middle of a pennant race.

Sorry man, the excuses need to end eventually. about 26 teams in the league would trade places this second.


The downside isn't any worse than the Marlins moving to some other market that's not tested in supporting a team (or even in fantasy land, a market that's not tested in supporting one more team that it already has). And given that Miami has the money on the table and the others don't, it's the only logical choice.

They've had the money in different stages for years, and it ends up being VaporWare. If I'm the Florida gov't, I'd question why we're giving money to a team that is a known failure?

I'd rather take the chance of success over a history of failure.

[efin98]

One thing though - how do you explain the Yankees playing in Tampa Bay tonight at 7:10 pm and then flying diagonally across the country to play Seattle tomorrow? You can't get much more of a longer flight than that in the lower 48.

I'll one up you- Seattle to Baltimore for Boston after a 10PM eastern time start. The game in Baltimore started in the afternoon which compounds things against the argument frankly.

[Captain Cold Nose]

That's ridiculous, and self-fulfilling. Fans don't support the team because they're not sure of its viability, which they could guarantee by actually attending games. You have had two world championships in under a dozen years, and a totally ungrateful fanbase that doesn't seem to care. The Mariners, Padres and Rangers have never seen a world championship. I see a fanbase that doesn't want to deal with a potential 20 minute rain delay to see a team in the middle of a pennant race.

Sorry man, the excuses need to end eventually. about 26 teams in the league would trade places this second.



They've had the money in different stages for years, and it ends up being VaporWare. If I'm the Florida gov't, I'd question why we're giving money to a team that is a known failure?

I'd rather take the chance of success over a history of failure.

It may seem like an excuse, but they do say that in South Florida. I've heard it.

If the motions in place don't work out, then give 'em the old vaudeville heave-ho. But, since they are in place, what's the point in screaming about it right now? Don't take that question literally, btw.

[six4three]

It may seem like an excuse, but they do say that in South Florida. I've heard it.


I don't doubt that they say it.

But that they say it is one of those things that signals it's a bad baseball market.

[PeteU]

Sorry man, the excuses need to end eventually. about 26 teams in the league would trade places this second.


Really? I'd love to know what team's fanbase would enjoy having ownership threaten to move the team if they don't get a new stadium.

And note, the threat to move the Marlins isn't based on low attendance; rather, it's due to lack of a new stadium where they are the primary tenant and are not saddled with what is unquestionably the worst lease in MLB.


They've had the money in different stages for years, and it ends up being VaporWare. If I'm the Florida gov't, I'd question why we're giving money to a team that is a known failure?

I'd rather take the chance of success over a history of failure.

You don't understand. The money has been approved by the Marlins, City of Miami, and Miami-Dade County. There's no outstanding money of which to be spoken. It's on the table now, right now.

The only reason they aren't starting construction is because the former owner of the Philadelphia Eagles mysteriously objected to the stadium deal for reasons unknown to me and filed a lawsuit. The matter should be decided by the end of the month. Legal experts favor the Marlins and the government in the case.

[Sean O]

It may seem like an excuse, but they do say that in South Florida. I've heard it.

If the motions in place don't work out, then give 'em the old vaudeville heave-ho. But, since they are in place, what's the point in screaming about it right now? Don't take that question literally, btw.

Let me put it this way. I think the Revolution (different from Ron Paul's rEVOLution) could be a success if they played at Fenway or somewhere near Boston, but I don't think it'd make sense to build them a 200m stadium on that possibility. If it seemed like another city in the US could serve them better, I'd say move 'em in a heartbeat.

They've had their chance, and 600 people show up. And this wasn't an isolated occurence; the rescheduled game last year had 60 something people. It's not fair to other markets that could nurture a team, or to Florida taxpayers who have shown abject disinterest.

[Saltzy23]

For the record, I do think the new stadium will go along way in terms of attendance. It indicates a long term investment by the Marlins ownership in the community--they won't be going around making veiled threats to move the team if they don't get a new stadium, because they will have a new stadium. And that investment will hopefully carry over into the front office position on signing players to long term contracts.

I know people might be sick of me saying the same thing over and over again, but I'll shout it from the mountain-tops: All the Marlins need is a sense of stability, and the fanbase should embrace the team accordingly.

The downside isn't any worse than the Marlins moving to some other market that's not tested in supporting a team (or even in fantasy land, a market that's not tested in supporting one more team that it already has). And given that Miami has the money on the table and the others don't, it's the only logical choice.
All the other side here is saying is that the team/fans have shown that even when the team is winning/WON THE WS the fans dont show up. You say "We need stability and then well show up"....I say, "You've(they've) had many chances to show up and support winning teams, and show they are a viable fan base. They have failed this test. You dont get another chance, in a brand new building....sorry

You want to ingore worst case scenerio. Son, when you are building a $200-$300 million stadium in this economy ALL you should care about is worst case scenerio...

[Jim Vaz]

WELL, all I know is that I myself was a HUGE, DIE HARD Marlins fan for 6 games in late October 2003! :rofl:

[PeteU]

All the other side here is saying is that the team/fans have shown that even when the team is winning/WON THE WS the fans dont show up. You say "We need stability and then well show up"....I say, "You've(they've) had many chances to show up and support winning teams, and show they are a viable fan base. They have failed this test. You dont get another chance, in a brand new building....sorry

You want to ingore worst case scenerio. Son, when you are building a $200-$300 million stadium in this economy ALL you should care about is worst case scenerio...

The dismantlement of the 1997 and 2003 teams is widely documented. The threats for years to relocate the Marlins (made by 3 different owners) if they don't build a new stadium is well documented.

Even when they've succeeded on the field, the state of the franchise has never been stable, at least post 1997. Never.

You are confusing the symptoms of the problem for the causes.

Like I said, put the Marlins in a stable situation where they have a ballpark of their own, without threats to relocate or whispers of selling off top players, and if they still aren't drawing well, then by all means, criticize away.

[Jim Vaz]

The dismantlement of the 1997 and 2003 teams is widely documented. The threats for years to relocate the Marlins (made by 3 different owners) if they don't build a new stadium is well documented.

Even when they've succeeded on the field, the state of the franchise has never been stable, at least post 1997. Never.

You are confusing the symptoms of the problem for the causes.

This is true. Each time the team was just entering the World Series there was already the talk from the owner himself that the team was going to be dismantled. This is no way to truely draw a fanbase when your in constant flux.


BOTTOM LINE to me on this whole argument is that there are a few factors. I just feel that South Florida is not a true hot bed for any professional sports team. Fans just don't exude that much interest as we are used to in places like NY, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, etc. maybe its the transplant mentality, maybe its the weather, maybe its the love for local college teams. Its just a different fanbase than were used to. I know this because I've been to Marlins and Panthers games, I've listened to the sports radio down there (if thats what you want to call it). Couple that with the instability of the team itself on and off the field has made for a bad combination.

[Sean O]

Really? I'd love to know what team's fanbase would enjoy having ownership threaten to move the team if they don't get a new stadium.


You mean like:
Brooklyn
Boston
NYY
NYM
MN
CHW
SF
Montreal
Washington

and probably a dozen other teams I can't think of at the moment. How many of these had 2 rings in 12 years?


And note, the threat to move the Marlins isn't based on low attendance; rather, it's due to lack of a new stadium where they are the primary tenant and are not saddled with what is unquestionably the worst lease in MLB.


I'm sure triple and quad-digit attendance is making some legislators leery about their political career if they OK all this money.


You don't understand. The money has been approved by the Marlins, City of Miami, and Miami-Dade County. There's no outstanding money of which to be spoken. It's on the table now, right now.

The only reason they aren't starting construction is because the former owner of the Philadelphia Eagles mysteriously objected to the stadium deal for reasons unknown to me and filed a lawsuit. The matter should be decided by the end of the month. Legal experts favor the Marlins and the government in the case.

Until the first spade is turned, color me unconvinced. It is abundantly clear to me that this will be Nationals Park all over again, only on a greater scale. It would have to be $700m (including the retractable roof), for the team with the worst attendance in baseball? Idiocy. This country doesn't know what it's doing.

[Saltzy23]

The dismantlement of the 1997 and 2003 teams is widely documented. The threats for years to relocate the Marlins (made by 3 different owners) if they don't build a new stadium is well documented.

Even when they've succeeded on the field, the state of the franchise has never been stable, at least post 1997. Never.

You are confusing the symptoms of the problem for the causes.

Like I said, put the Marlins in a stable situation where they have a ballpark of their own, without threats to relocate or whispers of selling off top players, and if they still aren't drawing well, then by all means, criticize away.

Again...it will be too late. I mean theres a GOOD chance you're right. I know squat about the 'avg baseball fan in So. Florida'. Ill admit it. Even if it was 90% they would have 'normal' attendances you cannot builld it. Its not a 'lets give this one last thing a shot' Its a VERY VERY expensive investment, that becomes totally usless if the plan flops...

I mean if 'Door #1 is guaranteed crap', logically that doesnt mean that the guaranteed expensive 'Door #2, that maybe crap, or maybe worth more than what you spent on it' is a better option...

From any sort of business perspective its a DUMB move...

[Sean O]

From any sort of business perspective its a DUMB move...

And much worse when those actually paying don't have a say in the discussion. If Marlins fans won't see a team because they feel it's "unstable", they don't deserve a team. Did Twins fans completely abandon their franchise when Selig himself said he wanted to get rid of it? They have an equally horrendous stadium.

[PeteU]

And much worse when those actually paying don't have a say in the discussion. If Marlins fans won't see a team because they feel it's "unstable", they don't deserve a team. Did Twins fans completely abandon their franchise when Selig himself said he wanted to get rid of it? They have an equally horrendous stadium.

Totally different situations.

The Twins had 40 years before Selig brought up the C word. Arguably the situation in Minnesota only got volatile in the mid 1990s at the earliest.

The Marlins had 5 years before the bottom fell out. Actually, even before 1997 Huzienga started to rumble about wanting a new stadium.

[PeteU]

Again...it will be too late. I mean theres a GOOD chance you're right. I know squat about the 'avg baseball fan in So. Florida'. Ill admit it. Even if it was 90% they would have 'normal' attendances you cannot builld it. Its not a 'lets give this one last thing a shot' Its a VERY VERY expensive investment, that becomes totally usless if the plan flops...

I mean if 'Door #1 is guaranteed crap', logically that doesnt mean that the guaranteed expensive 'Door #2, that maybe crap, or maybe worth more than what you spent on it' is a better option...

From any sort of business perspective its a DUMB move...

What you're saying is....wait, what are you saying?

Why do you think Door No. 1 (a new stadium for the Marlins) is automatically "guaranteed crap"? What makes you think that a new stadium, removing the threat of relocation of the team, isn't going to help things in stablizing the franchise and having baseball fans in the area know their team is going to be there for good?

Seriously, your speculation abilities are about as bad as your memory...

[six4three]

The Twins had 40 years before Selig brought up the C word.

In point of fact, it wasn't Selig who brought up contracting the Twins. It was Pohlad who first suggested it.

[Sean O]

Totally different situations.

The Twins had 40 years before Selig brought up the C word. Arguably the situation in Minnesota only got volatile in the mid 1990s at the earliest.

The Marlins had 5 years before the bottom fell out. Actually, even before 1997 Huzienga started to rumble about wanting a new stadium.

Pete, can you see our side of the discussion? You have to admit you have an excuse for everything, and eventually there comes a time when others have done more with less. A string of excuses doesn't make the current solution acceptable. Throwing hundreds of millions at a situation that has, to this point, been abject failure is a joke.

[PeteU]

Pete, can you see our side of the discussion? You have to admit you have an excuse for everything, and eventually there comes a time when others have done more with less. A string of excuses doesn't make the current solution acceptable. Throwing hundreds of millions at a situation that has, to this point, been abject failure is a joke.

I do not have an excuse for everything. If you've read my posts, there has been one common theme and one common theme only:

The Marlins need stability. They don't have stability, and that makes it difficult for the local populace to embrace them, and as a result (not a cause, a result) low attendance at the games.

What gives the Marlins stability? A new ballpark. Marlins owners have threatened to move the team without a new ballpark. Build a new ballpark, remove the threat, build up a sense of stability with the local populace, and attendance should go up.

It's really that simple. Really.

[Meadowlark]

A fanbase of 12-14m that holds the MLB consecutive attendance streak deserves a second team, rather than a fanbase that can't find 600 people to show up for a pennant race game.

So you want to move the Marlins to essentially re-create the Boston Braves?

The original incarnation moved because they couldn't draw flies.

Boston/New England strikes me as a one team town/area.

In those circumstances an overspill team is doomed to be even more pointless a franchise than the Marlins currently are.

[six4three]

Boston/New England strikes me as a one team town/area.


You are absolutely right on that one.

[Sean O]

I do not have an excuse for everything. If you've read my posts, there has been one common theme and one common theme only:

The Marlins need stability. They don't have stability, and that makes it difficult for the local populace to embrace them, and as a result (not a cause, a result) low attendance at the games.

What gives the Marlins stability? A new ballpark. Marlins owners have threatened to move the team without a new ballpark. Build a new ballpark, remove the threat, build up a sense of stability with the local populace, and attendance should go up.

It's really that simple. Really.

And what about all the other teams that still had fans when they were directly told there were plans to dump the team? The ones without as much success, or with older, more worn down stadiums, or with teams nowhere near contention. What I'm saying is, if fans don't go due to a lack of stability, they don't deserve to have a team to support.

Stability comes from a team capable of success. This is one giant handout on speculation of what you're saying being true, by rewarding the disinterest shown by fans. If a team is incapable of selling 20-25,000 tickets to most games, then they're not going to succeed, whether they have perfect weather in the middle of a city, or if they're a half hour drive out when it might rain.

If a team is unstable, a worthy fanbase will redouble their efforts to making sure they become stable. What logic is there in rewarding fans who don't care?

[PeteU]

You mean like:
Brooklyn
Boston
NYY
NYM
MN
CHW
SF
Montreal
Washington

and probably a dozen other teams I can't think of at the moment. How many of these had 2 rings in 12 years?


A) Four of those teams you mentioned actually moved.

and

B) Are you really that blind that you don't know the situation that succeeded those two rings?


I'm sure triple and quad-digit attendance is making some legislators leery about their political career if they OK all this money.

It doesn't matter. There is no state money in the ballpark project. Thus, the state doesn't have to approve the deal. Research it before you say it.


Until the first spade is turned, color me unconvinced. It is abundantly clear to me that this will be Nationals Park all over again, only on a greater scale. It would have to be $700m (including the retractable roof), for the team with the worst attendance in baseball? Idiocy. This country doesn't know what it's doing.

Well, in the words of The Dude, "That's just your opinion, man."

Don't work yourself up what goes down in Florida. You don't live here, so you don't have standing to criticize anyways. Enjoy following the Red Sox or whatever makes you happy.

[Sean O]

So you want to move the Marlins to essentially re-create the Boston Braves?

The original incarnation moved because they couldn't draw flies.

Boston/New England strikes me as a one team town/area.

In those circumstances an overspill team is doomed to be even more pointless a franchise than the Marlins currently are.

Did the Red Sox have the MLB consecutive sellout streak then?

Living up here, you hear from people all the time that they just want to be able to go to a baseball game. The Lowell Spinners, the low-Single A team, has sold out almost every single game of the last decade. The Pawsox are 7th in all MiLB attendance, while the Portland Sea Dogs are first in the Eastern League. New Britain and Manchester round out the top 50, and this isn't counting the indie leagues in Nashua and Lynn and who knows where else, or the Cape Cod summer league.

Yes, people love Fenway, but you also hear how people just miss being able to go to a game if they wanted. This is the largest metro area in the country with one team, and even if it's not the Sox, people just want to be able to buy day-of tickets.

Thousands of people get shut out each year because they can't spend 10-14 hours in the virtual waiting room every November and December. I'm not saying the second team would be as wildly popular as the sox, but it would definitely do better than a lot of single-team towns.

[Sean O]

Don't work yourself up what goes down in Florida. You don't live here, so you don't have standing to criticize anyways. Enjoy following the Red Sox or whatever makes you happy.

Well, considering federal money will inevitably go to fixing up Florida's latest mess that could've been handled in-state, yeah I'd say it's of general interest. Any time people decide to burn a $500-700m pile of money, I get a bit concerned.

[PeteU]

And what about all the other teams that still had fans when they were directly told there were plans to dump the team? The ones without as much success, or with older, more worn down stadiums, or with teams nowhere near contention. What I'm saying is, if fans don't go due to a lack of stability, they don't deserve to have a team to support.

Stability comes from a team capable of success. This is one giant handout on speculation of what you're saying being true, by rewarding the disinterest shown by fans. If a team is incapable of selling 20-25,000 tickets to most games, then they're not going to succeed, whether they have perfect weather in the middle of a city, or if they're a half hour drive out when it might rain.

If a team is unstable, a worthy fanbase will redouble their efforts to making sure they become stable. What logic is there in rewarding fans who don't care?

A lot of those fanbases fell apart, got demoralized. Exhibit A: Montreal Expos.

Heck, the Baltimore Colts had one of the most fervent fanbases in the NFL with a great history (at one point their stadium was called "The World's Largest Outdoor Insane Asylum"). The team is bought by an inept drunk, who starts shopping the team, even helicopters into stadiums which he'd like to move the team, and threatens on TV to move the team. Needless to say, the situation is so sad the first round draft pick refuses to play for this once-storied franchise, and the last couple of years in Baltimore for the Colts is quite a sad sight.

Stability comes from the fans having a team they can be proud in, but even moreso, one that they know will be around indefinetly. Start saying the team is going to be moving, and it's going to people's heads, no doubt about it.

[Saltzy23]

What you're saying is....wait, what are you saying?

Why do you think Door No. 1 (a new stadium for the Marlins) is automatically "guaranteed crap"? What makes you think that a new stadium, removing the threat of relocation of the team, isn't going to help things in stablizing the franchise and having baseball fans in the area know their team is going to be there for good?

Seriously, your speculation abilities are about as bad as your memory...
Yes...traditionally the biggest Risk Management firm in the world hires morons..

NO...Door #1...now...guaranteed crap...never gonna make steady profits
Door #2 investing $200 mil in a building that you 'are pretty sure will solidify a shaky fanbase"....and IF it doesnt....aWHOOPSIE....'Hey, we tried'...

Are you kidding?

That is HORRENDOUS Risk/Reward

[Sean O]

Stability comes from the fans having a team they can be proud in, but even moreso, one that they know will be around indefinetly. Start saying the team is going to be moving, and it's going to people's heads, no doubt about it.

All I'm saying is, correlation does not imply causation. The team might be unstable, and the fans may not be coming, but it certainly doesn't make sense to say that's the cause. Especially when the area fans have ignored anything but college football for so long.

[PeteU]

Well, considering federal money will inevitably go to fixing up Florida's latest mess that could've been handled in-state, yeah I'd say it's of general interest. Any time people decide to burn a $500-700m pile of money, I get a bit concerned.

You mean what--hurricanes?

Don't get me started on Florida's state government and its lack of statewide revenue. Its last governor was an inept crook who skated by on virtue of his last name.

But stadiums get built with public funds everywhere. If you want to call it an epidemic, fine, but not something that is exclusive to the Sunshine State.

[six4three]

Stability comes from the fans having a team they can be proud in, but even moreso, one that they know will be around indefinetly. Start saying the team is going to be moving, and it's going to people's heads, no doubt about it.

Given, as has been mentioned, that most of the current teams have at one time threatened to move, that doesn't really let southern Floridians off the hook.

Besides, the Rays have been very stable - hasn't helped them.

[Sean O]

Given, as has been mentioned, that most of the current teams have at one time threatened to move, that doesn't really let southern Floridians off the hook.

Besides, the Rays have been very stable - hasn't helped them.

That's the funny thing, it's always the fault of what the team doesn't have. For TB, with stability, it's the bad teams. For Florida, with great teams, it's the stability.

At the end of the day, Tampa Bay is 26th, Florida is 30th.

[PeteU]

Yes...traditionally the biggest Risk Management firm in the world hires morons..

NO...Door #1...now...guaranteed crap...never gonna make steady profits
Door #2 investing $200 mil in a building that you 'are pretty sure will solidify a shaky fanbase"....and IF it doesnt....aWHOOPSIE....'Hey, we tried'...

Are you kidding?

That is HORRENDOUS Risk/Reward

I'm sorry. Forgive me--first you say Door 1 is a new stadium, but now that appears to be Door 2, which previously appeared to be moving the team to some different market.

So Door 1 is now what? Keeping the team at Dolphin Stadium? Having the Marlins abandon playing baseball in favor of bowling? :confused:

Perhaps you should scrap the whole "Let's Make a Deal" analogy, because it's coming off looking more like a logical shell game on your part.

[Lafferty Daniel]

In 1997, Carl Pohlad threatened to move the Twins to Northern Virginia. The next three seasons, the Twins only averaged about 13,000 fans per game. Those teams in the late 90's were awful, but Pohlad jerking around our team certainly caused a lot of fans to rebel by not showing up to the dome.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/minnatte.shtml

It wasn't until 2001 when the Twins averaged over 20,000 due to a surprise playoff run. The contraction threat also took place at this time, but instead of not showing up, many Twins fans came out to the dome because our team was contenders again. We didn't have any stars to root for unless you count Matt Lawton, Hunter, Mientkiewitz, Koskie, or Radke as "stars," but we didn't care. That's the main difference between the situation in Minny versus Florida. We finally showed up when our team starting winning, and the re-location/contraction threats went away.

I don't know much about Miami, or how the Marlins market their club, but I think we need to be a little more patient. Marlins fans have some great talent to watch including Hanley, arguably the best hitter in baseball. The TV ratings are solid for the Marlins this season, so I'm not giving up hope yet. One of these days the viewers watching on TV will start heading to Dolphin Stadium...I hope.

As for the new stadium. I'm all for it if it's paid for without public subsidies. Since the proposal is not 100% privately financed, it should not get built. They just don't deserve it at this point.

[six4three]

That's the funny thing, it's always the fault of what the team doesn't have. For TB, with stability, it's the bad teams. For Florida, with great teams, it's the stability.

At the end of the day, Tampa Bay is 26th, Florida is 30th.

Sad but true.

As Scott Kazmir says, there's a long line of excuses. But the bottom line remains.

[PeteU]

That's the funny thing, it's always the fault of what the team doesn't have. For TB, with stability, it's the bad teams. For Florida, with great teams, it's the stability.

At the end of the day, Tampa Bay is 26th, Florida is 30th.


Actually, it's two great teams interspursed with a couple of decent teams and the rest mediocre to bad teams. And the two great teams being sold off.

The Rays are simply a new franchise with no history of winning and therefore the casual fanbase is just starting to embrace the team. It's all a work in progress after the team experiences its first winning season, but it isn't anything unusual. The Mariners are perfect analogy to all of this--you are welcome to check out my post on the subject on the other thread.

Of course, as a Red Sox fan, I guess I know why you'd like to eliminate the Rays. :)

[Sean O]

Sad but true.

As Scott Kazmir says, there's a long line of excuses. But the bottom line remains.

Wouldn't it be great to come up with a list of excuses for why every team's situation isn't perfect?

parking: NY, Boston, Chicago
Public Transportation: everything but NY, Boston, Chicago
weather too poor: MN, Chicago, Cleveland, Cinci
weather too nice: San Diego, LA
Threat of driving in rain: Seattle
Not enough history: TB, Arizona, FL
Too much history: Cubs, Cleveland
Bad owner: Baltimore
Too expensive: everywhere

etc etc. Nobody's situation is perfect. Good fanbases adapt.

[btown12]

These are the only photos I could find, guess there was only 1 photographer in that group of 600.
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/79508930-daec-431d-909b-43003fcd0dd8.jpg
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/baa2a25a-aa59-4326-a1b6-a15216176b04.jpg
http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/4a4f5eb4db5210d25b22677541c5e44e.jpg
Also funny is the fact that the Marlins' site and MLB.com only mention that the game was played in front of "11,211 at Dolphin Stadium".

[Saltzy23]

I'm sorry. Forgive me--first you say Door 1 is a new stadium, but now that appears to be Door 2, which previously appeared to be moving the team to some different market.

So Door 1 is now what? Keeping the team at Dolphin Stadium? Having the Marlins abandon playing baseball in favor of bowling? :confused:

Perhaps you should scrap the whole "Let's Make a Deal" analogy, because it's coming off looking more like a logical shell game on your part.
WOOOW...OK...

Option 1. Staying status quo....Everyone agrees this isnt/wont work..
Option 2. Build a brand new $200-$300 Mil park, in the middle of an instable economy for PROVEN shaky clientele/fanbase(You saying they will show is meaningless. The proof is that in 15 years they havent), where the downside is an empty $200-$300 stadium, wasting away, bringing in no money, and where there is no foreseeable relocating team to move in...
Option 3. Relocate and try again with a different clientele in a different city...after extensive R&D, and whatnot....
Option 4. Scrap the whole team...

Can we agree these are the only 4 options?

Now, lets pretend you were 'insuring' this decision...youre seriously saying that from a financial perspective, OBJECTIVELY...that you think Option #2 is the way to go...

Thats you wanting them to stay, and hoping that people will show up, man. You CANNOT be wrong. You HAVE to be 100% sure. Youd cut the check now for $200 MILLION, cause you have a gut feeling the fan base just wants stability? NO WAY my friend...

[GordonGecko]

Also keep in mind the Marlins cash flow will take a hit starting next year because the majority of revenue sharing payments by the Mets and Yankees will be voided because they can redirect those funds towards debt service to their new ballparks. Not sure what the net number is, but it won't help Miami become more financially stable or help fund a new stadium.

[PeteU]

WOOOW...OK...

Option 1. Staying status quo....Everyone agrees this isnt/wont work..
Option 2. Build a brand new $200-$300 Mil park, in the middle of an instable economy for PROVEN shaky clientele/fanbase(You saying they will show is meaningless. The proof is that in 15 years they havent), where the downside is an empty $200-$300 stadium, wasting away, bringing in no money, and where there is no foreseeable relocating team to move in...
Option 3. Relocate and try again with a different clientele in a different city...after extensive R&D, and whatnot....
Option 4. Scrap the whole team...

Can we agree these are the only 4 options?

Now, lets pretend you were 'insuring' this decision...youre seriously saying that from a financial perspective, OBJECTIVELY...that you think Option #2 is the way to go...

Thats you wanting them to stay, and hoping that people will show up, man. You CANNOT be wrong. You HAVE to be 100% sure. Youd cut the check now for $200 MILLION, cause you have a gut feeling the fan base just wants stability? NO WAY my friend...

There are currently no markets that have an actual relocation deal on the table. Hence, moving the team to some city that doesn't have a new stadium package (let alone questionable as to a temporary venue) is non-sensical.

Contraction is a non-starter. It's not going to happen. Ever.

The money has already been approved for Miami and construction is ready to go as soon as the lawsuit is resolved. Option 2 is far and away the best choice.

There's only one market in the US that currently has an approved deal for a new baseball stadium. That market? South Florida.

[Sean O]

Just for reference, the total cost is $610m, of which $155m is paid by the team. So, the city would pay an awful, awful lot of money for this questionable project.

[GordonGecko]

There are currently no markets that have an actual relocation deal on the table. Hence, moving the team to some city that doesn't have a new stadium package (let alone questionable as to a temporary venue) is non-sensical.

Contraction is a non-starter. It's not going to happen. Ever.

The money has already been approved for Miami and construction is ready to go as soon as the lawsuit is resolved. Option 2 is far and away the best choice.

There's only one market in the US that currently has an approved deal for a new baseball stadium. That market? South Florida.

How can any objective person in their right mind possibly say that the best option is #2. It may be the best for those 600 fans in the seats yesterday, but it sure isn't for the taxpayers of Florida. On a rational risk/reward financial analysis basis, the best option is clearly relocation to a market that can sustain Major League Baseball. South Florida has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it cannot.

You don't need a new stadium project elsewhere ready to go. The Marlins could play inthe meadowlands and get twice the fans. Marlins need to leave Florida, this is becoming a huge embarassment for the league

[Saltzy23]

There are currently no markets that have an actual relocation deal on the table. Hence, moving the team to some city that doesn't have a new stadium package (let alone questionable as to a temporary venue) is non-sensical.

Contraction is a non-starter. It's not going to happen. Ever.

The money has already been approved for Miami and construction is ready to go as soon as the lawsuit is resolved. Option 2 is far and away the best choice.

There's only one market in the US that currently has an approved deal for a new baseball stadium. That market? South Florida.
OOOK...Yea, this has been proven. Its an awful AWFUL idea...$610 MIL?!?...thats almost as much as Citi Field....team only paying $155 MIL?!?

NO way you can justify that. Its a 'Eh, if we make money WONDERFUL. If we dont, who cares. None of us are really gonna get bit, and F it, well just move somewhere else if its a failure anyway'...

Sorry dude. The logic of, "Well, I guess this is our only option. We may as well go for it." doesnt fly here. ANYTHING other than guaranteed results, or at least anticipated results doesnt work. FORGET ABOUT 'Well, I know we havent been there for ya, but we REALLY promise we will be if you build us something nice'. If you went over hard data from 'Team X', not knowing they were the Marlins. I showed you that attendance was always near the bottom. That even after winning, no one showed up. That the fan base has clearly shown that unless things are setup perfectly in their favor will they not show up. That the only other team that plays in the state is in 1st, in a "better" building and still cant draw fans, in September no less.

If you can honestly say that you would approve a $610 project for that team, with taxpayers picking up most of the tab, just cause it was 'the only option' then my man...Im glad we arent in business together...

[Twenty Seven]

The local AA team here gets about that much. :rofl:

[PeteU]

OOOK...Yea, this has been proven. Its an awful AWFUL idea...$610 MIL?!?...thats almost as much as Citi Field....team only paying $155 MIL?!?

NO way you can justify that. Its a 'Eh, if we make money WONDERFUL. If we dont, who cares. None of us are really gonna get bit, and F it, well just move somewhere else if its a failure anyway'...

Sorry dude. The logic of, "Well, I guess this is our only option. We may as well go for it." doesnt fly here. ANYTHING other than guaranteed results, or at least anticipated results doesnt work. FORGET ABOUT 'Well, I know we havent been there for ya, but we REALLY promise we will be if you build us something nice'. If you went over hard data from 'Team X', not knowing they were the Marlins. I showed you that attendance was always near the bottom. That even after winning, no one showed up. That the fan base has clearly shown that unless things are setup perfectly in their favor will they not show up. That the only other team that plays in the state is in 1st, in a "better" building and still cant draw fans, in September no less.

If you can honestly say that you would approve a $610 project for that team, with taxpayers picking up most of the tab, just cause it was 'the only option' then my man...Im glad we arent in business together...

I'm sorry, but the plain facts are unless there is another market with a new stadium deal on the table, there is no other option, whether you like it or not. And unless you can magically go back in time and disrupt the duly executed contract between the Marlins, the city and the county, you and your "risk management" self matter nothing to the situation. Nada. Zilch.

It's a deal. Get over it. Time to realize you're just not that important in the long run of things. You're SOOL.

[PeteU]

How can any objective person in their right mind possibly say that the best option is #2. It may be the best for those 600 fans in the seats yesterday, but it sure isn't for the taxpayers of Florida. On a rational risk/reward financial analysis basis, the best option is clearly relocation to a market that can sustain Major League Baseball. South Florida has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it cannot.

You don't need a new stadium project elsewhere ready to go. The Marlins could play inthe meadowlands and get twice the fans. Marlins need to leave Florida, this is becoming a huge embarassment for the league

They're going to play in the Meadowlands. 190 foot foul poles. Who-kay.

[GordonGecko]

I'm sorry, but the plain facts are unless there is another market with a new stadium deal on the table, there is no other option, whether you like it or not. And unless you can magically go back in time and disrupt the duly executed contract between the Marlins, the city and the county, you and your "risk management" self matter nothing to the situation. Nada. Zilch.

It's a deal. Get over it. Time to realize you're just not that important in the long run of things. You're SOOL.

Setting aside the insults for just one second, you haven't addressed his stated fact that this would be a very expensive stadium project for the low "possibility" of a stronger fan base, which is not a rational economic decision. If there isn't a viable alternative city (which I dispute), the rational decision would be contraction, but problematic in itself since you would need 2 teams axed to balance the schedule.

[Saltzy23]

Setting aside the insults for just one second, you haven't addressed his stated fact that this would be a very expensive stadium project for the low "possibility" of a stronger fan base, which is not a rational economic decision. If there isn't a viable alternative city (which I dispute), the rational decision would be contraction, but problematic in itself since you would need 2 teams axed to balance the schedule.
Pfft...duuuude. They totally approved it already and whateverrrrr. I mean its like, only 2/3 of a FREAKING BILLION DOLLARS....like, who cares...

I dont want to get politcal, but it is this INCREDIBLY short sighted "Pfft...Were America MOFO. We can do whatever and nothing bad will ever happen"...thinking that makes be go NUTS...

I mean COME ON DUDE. Im fine with companies spending $20,000 on a gold toilet seat if they want. Do you REALLY think that this country should be dropping $500 million on HIGHLY questionable baseball stadiums, all in a time or war? REALLY??? Over contracting a team..a team that....GASP...YOU and about 1,000,000 other people would lose OR trying them somewhere else(let them be a lame duck in Fla. until they figure out the details. Its not like it would effect their attendance.)

I guess if you really feel that after 10 people have pointed out 10,000 ways why and how its stupid then I give up...

[PeteU]

Setting aside the insults for just one second, you haven't addressed his stated fact that this would be a very expensive stadium project for the low "possibility" of a stronger fan base, which is not a rational economic decision. If there isn't a viable alternative city (which I dispute), the rational decision would be contraction, but problematic in itself since you would need 2 teams axed to balance the schedule.

There isn't a viable alternative city. That would require a stadium plan. None exist.

And contraction isn't going to happen--the players union will object way too much.

And I dispute your characterization that it is automatically a low possibility that a new stadium won't see an increase in attendance. When the main reason for the lack of franchise stability has been the lack of a new stadium, which the owners have threatened to move the team if they don't get said stadium, you remove that problem from the equation and the "permanancy" of the team is much more cemented.

[Mario Mendoza...HOF Lock]

As for the new stadium. I'm all for it if it's paid for without public subsidies. Since the proposal is not 100% privately financed, it should not get built. They just don't deserve it at this point.

I can't see any sane private "investors" investing in the Miami baseball market, given it's consistent lack of support for the franchise, whatever the reasons may be. Possibly some local billionaire with play money and an ego, perhaps. But someone hoping for a return on their investment? I can't see it. The taxpayers will have to kick in with some $$.

[Saltzy23]

There isn't a viable alternative city. That would require a stadium plan. None exist.

And contraction isn't going to happen--the players union will object way too much.

And I dispute your characterization that it is automatically a low possibility that a new stadium won't see an increase in attendance. When the main reason for the lack of franchise stability has been the lack of a new stadium, which the owners have threatened to move the team if they don't get said stadium, you remove that problem from the equation and the "permanancy" of the team is much more cemented.
Cool...one last post before night night....

Gotcha. No other cities currently want/would be able to take the team. Picture me giving you the pointing into your eyes thing....same page...

OK. Now....as someone that tries to save his company money, you need to explain to me how "Cause A.-Baseball team that has awful AWFUL attendance that needs a new($610 MILLION stadium no less) in a city/state that never once ever has proven it can support a baseball team" results in "Effect B.-Me as Joe Q. Public having to pay my taxes towards a stadium that HOPFULLY will work out, and if it doesnt....well...whatever..." No one has any risk involved personally, and only gains to be made. Its the ONLY reason why is going through. Cause anyone with half a brain would laugh while vetoing this ridiculous idea...

This is an UNACCEPTABLE reason to spend $500 Mil in a time of war, in a crap economy with Oil at $100/barell...POSSIBLE/HOPEFUL results on public funding for $500 Mil....GREAT!!!...

[Captain Mac]

I know that times have changed dramatically since the 40's and 50's, but I wonder about what it would take for a tean like the Marlins to move to the NY area? Perhaps out there at the swamp they can get a stadium.

I mean look, the Metropolitan area can handle 3 teams, is also in the building new stadiums spirit (Citi, Meadowlands, Yankee ball parks) and certainly the team would draw much better than 600 during a pennant race.

I know it is highly unlikely, but they need to move that club somewhere else. Never mind a new stadium in Miami.

[Philtration]

Blaming this on the heat is just an excuse.
It is hot all over the country in July, August and September. When you have a crowd of only 600 people then you have much bigger problems than complaining that it was just "too hot" to go to the game.
Miami's forecast for the next four days calls for temps in the mid 80s.
Do you believe that it is not just as hot and humid all over the mid-West?

Last Sunday it was 87° here. On Monday it was 90°. On Tuesday it was 94°

[PeteU]

Cool...one last post before night night....

Gotcha. No other cities currently want/would be able to take the team. Picture me giving you the pointing into your eyes thing....same page...

OK. Now....as someone that tries to save his company money, you need to explain to me how "Cause A.-Baseball team that has awful AWFUL attendance that needs a new($610 MILLION stadium no less) in a city/state that never once ever has proven it can support a baseball team" results in "Effect B.-Me as Joe Q. Public having to pay my taxes towards a stadium that HOPFULLY will work out, and if it doesnt....well...whatever..." No one has any risk involved personally, and only gains to be made. Its the ONLY reason why is going through. Cause anyone with half a brain would laugh while vetoing this ridiculous idea...

This is an UNACCEPTABLE reason to spend $500 Mil in a time of war, in a crap economy with Oil at $100/barell...POSSIBLE/HOPEFUL results on public funding for $500 Mil....GREAT!!!...

No number of capital letters and exclaimation points and pontificating on issues of the economy and public funding for ballparks is going to hide the fact that the only realistic place for the Marlins to play at this point in time is...drum roll, please....Miami.

You may not like the idea of public finanicing of ballparks, and frankly I'm lukewarm on the concept, but it's a reality in a majority of sports franchises these days. Bang your fists against the wall all you want, you're not that special that you are going to change anything. Really. You're not. And neither am I.

[six4three]

I agree - the issue of public financing is moot.

[Saltzy23]

I agree - the issue of public financing is moot.
You're missing my point. I have no issues with public funding on stadiums. I know its been proven that they really never 'help' the new neighborhoods and whatnot, but on the whole its an impovement to the city...go for it...

THIS...is completeley different. This is going in knowing that theres a good chance it wont work...and STILL spending $500 mil just cause theres seemingly no other present option...

I look at everything in business terms. Anyway you look at it, its a total waste of money in a time when the country should be battening down the hatches...

[six4three]

I look at everything in business terms.

Then you're familiar with the concept of a "loss leader."

If Miami thinks this is a valuable use of their money, not really our place to disagree.

[GordonGecko]

Then you're familiar with the concept of a "loss leader."

If Miami thinks this is a valuable use of their money, not really our place to disagree.

I don't see how it can be a loss leader. People don't generally come visit Florida to watch the Marlins play. They come for disneyworld and Miami beach. Those Yankee and Cubs fans that pack the parks are usually on vacation there already. A MLB team does nothing for tourism in Florida and a new park won't really change that.

The Nationals built a park this year with DC money, and averaged less than 30K in paid attendance with much less actually showing up to use those tickets. I promise you it will be even worse in Miami when/if a new stadium is built.

[GordonGecko]

Found a picture of the sub-600 fan game, yikes!

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0082/7593/marlins_feature.jpg

Come 2011, the Marlins will be playing in brand new empty stadium. There’s money well spent.

There are lots of locales that would better patronize an MLB franchise. Nevada comes to mind first. Perhaps even Mexico, where the love for baseball is sure to fill even the largest stadium.

Whatever the new locale, MLB in Florida needs to become a thing of the past. My guess is it will take Floridians a good long while to even notice.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/53951-should-mlb-leave-florida

[yamsi12]

apparently florida isnt full of baseball fans.

[marlins739]

Found a picture of the sub-600 fan game, yikes!

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0082/7593/marlins_feature.jpg

That's from the Marlins-Nationals makeup game last year. Apparently the turnstile count from the game this thread is about was about 1500 out of the 11,000 or so tickets sold

[Mr.Prince24]

Florida is the mockery of the MLB (that title belonged to the Expos for the 15+ years left in their history) Yes, we know the stadium problems and yes, the government sucks down there. I would move the team if you can manage 600, even in a make up game in a stadium that can seat 38,000+. Crying shame for baseball. Now, let's move the team somewhere nicer, say either South of the border or in good old Oklahoma city (and name their team something crappy with a horrendous logo and a very small market place and have a ball with it)

[PeteU]

Florida is the mockery of the MLB (that title belonged to the Expos for the 15+ years left in their history) Yes, we know the stadium problems and yes, the government sucks down there. I would move the team if you can manage 600, even in a make up game in a stadium that can seat 38,000+. Crying shame for baseball. Now, let's move the team somewhere nicer, say either South of the border or in good old Oklahoma city (and name their team something crappy with a horrendous logo and a very small market place and have a ball with it)

I love how people are going ape over turnstile attendance for one game--one game--which considering the fact that turnstile attendance matters for crap in the long run, this is all but a bunch of hot air. Nobody's going to know the turnstile attendance 10, 20 years down the line.

True, I'll agree that the Marlins' average attendance this year, and over the past 10 years, has been poor. I am not disputing that. That's the symptom, not the cause, of the problem. Newsflash: This is the result of what happens when ownership makes threats to move a team and when ownership sells off players. When a new stadium is in place, the incentive to move is gone, and hopefully the incentive to sell off players as well.

Now. Let's get something straight. The Marlins are not moving to Mexico. They are not moving to Oklahoma City. They are not moving to Las Vegas. They are not moving to New Jersey or anywhere else within the New York Metropolitian area.

The Marlins are getting a new stadium. They are not moving.

Get over it.

[GordonGecko]

That's all nice and good, but this is a public relations nightmare for MLB. It decreases the overall value of their brand and something will have to be done about it. If the Florida taxpayers are stupid enough to get fleeced for a useless stadium no one will go to, then MLB will be glad to give it a shot. When no one shows up there, that's when the **** will really hit the fan

[PeteU]

That's all nice and good, but this is a public relations nightmare for MLB. It decreases the overall value of their brand and something will have to be done about it. If the Florida taxpayers are stupid enough to get fleeced for a useless stadium no one will go to, then MLB will be glad to give it a shot. When no one shows up there, that's when the **** will really hit the fan

Oh quit with the Chicken Little stuff. There is no "public relations nightmare for MLB" of which to be spoken. This is not the first time in Major League history that a team has had gate problems. It isn't even the first time in the past two decades that a Major League team has had gate problems. And it won't be the last time it happens in Major League history, either. Put good money on it.

All your talk about "But....but....but....if they build a new ballpark, no one will go! Oh, the humanity!" is pure, Grade A unadulterated, speculative, out of your arse B.S. The Marlins are getting their new stadium. They are not moving anywhere because there's nowhere to move them, so deal with it and quit your whining.

[Mr.Prince24]

I love how people are going ape over turnstile attendance for one game--one game--which considering the fact that turnstile attendance matters for crap in the long run, this is all but a bunch of hot air. Nobody's going to know the turnstile attendance 10, 20 years down the line.

True, I'll agree that the Marlins' average attendance this year, and over the past 10 years, has been poor. I am not disputing that. That's the symptom, not the cause, of the problem. Newsflash: This is the result of what happens when ownership makes threats to move a team and when ownership sells off players. When a new stadium is in place, the incentive to move is gone, and hopefully the incentive to sell off players as well.

Now. Let's get something straight. The Marlins are not moving to Mexico. They are not moving to Oklahoma City. They are not moving to Las Vegas. They are not moving to New Jersey or anywhere else within the New York Metropolitian area.

The Marlins are getting a new stadium. They are not moving.

Get over it.

but I wasn't basing it just solely on that one game. I understand that they are getting a new stadium and possibly may not move. But here's the problem they have :a strong fan base. I honestly don't care about that one game. But usually, a rain make up game has at least 15,000+. It would be financially better if they moved, rather than put with 1) Huizenga ( God knows what he did for baseball) and that poor stadium deal (he owns Dolphin Satdium) 2)a poor fan base (I heard they didn't want to be associated with Miami) and 3) a kick in the back of the head for them from the MLB (blacking out games, etc)

[marlins739]

What's this about blacking out games? I've lived in the South Florida area since the team's inception and I've never seen a game being blacked out here. And how is this a public relations nightmare for MLB? It was a minor news article on the team websites for one day, and now nobody except BBF talks about it. Huizenga is a major part of the problem, but once the new stadium is built (which is going to happen, it's funded and the site has been cleared and the only thing standing in the way is a minor lawsuit which should be cleared up in the next few weeks) he's not our problem anymore

[mandrake]

What's this about blacking out games? I've lived in the South Florida area since the team's inception and I've never seen a game being blacked out here. And how is this a public relations nightmare for MLB? It was a minor news article on the team websites for one day, and now nobody except BBF talks about it. Huizenga is a major part of the problem, but once the new stadium is built (which is going to happen, it's funded and the site has been cleared and the only thing standing in the way is a minor lawsuit which should be cleared up in the next few weeks) he's not our problem anymore

Last weekend, I watched the Mets at Marlins series on TV. Even with many NY fans in the place, it was still empty. I know all of the issues and agree with the Florida fans on some of them. However, I put on the TV yesterday for the 2nd half of the Jets at Dolphins (same stadium) and I see many empty seats in the upper decks, even with many fans wearing Jets Jerseys.

It might be cheaper for me, and easier, to catch a flight to see the Rangers vs Panthers hockey game than for me to try to purchase tickets at MSG.

I just don't know if a new 38,000 seat stdium on the Orange Bowl site is going to solve any of the Marlins problems.

[GordonGecko]

Oh quit with the Chicken Little stuff. There is no "public relations nightmare for MLB" of which to be spoken. This is not the first time in Major League history that a team has had gate problems. It isn't even the first time in the past two decades that a Major League team has had gate problems. And it won't be the last time it happens in Major League history, either. Put good money on it.

All your talk about "But....but....but....if they build a new ballpark, no one will go! Oh, the humanity!" is pure, Grade A unadulterated, speculative, out of your arse B.S. The Marlins are getting their new stadium. They are not moving anywhere because there's nowhere to move them, so deal with it and quit your whining.

They are moving, it's just a matter of if they move/contract in 2 years (no new stadium) or if they move/contract in 10 years (new stadium will fail to draw). There is absolutely a public relations nightmare with the Marlins just like there was with the Montreal Expos. Such poorly attended games, especially for a winning ballclub, is a very real problem for MLB because it reduces the value of the product for other teams. It's like that trailer trash neighbor with peeling paint who never moes his junk strewn lawn -- it decrease everyone else's property values.

There are many viable candidates for relocation, and a new stadium does not have to be ready. There's numerous examples of teams that have moved with the idea to start construction and have a stadium ready 2-4 years down the line. Brooklyn to LA Dodgers is exhibit A.

It's not a simple one-time gate problem, it's a chronic gate problem and the Miami-Dade market has proven without a shadow of a doubt that it cannot support major league baseball.

[Meadowlark]

Aren't the only other demographically viable locations for MLB NY/NJ & LA/OC?

Areas that aren't exactly starved of baseball as it is.

If you move the Marlins anywhere else you could end up just exporting the problem.

[PeteU]

What's this about blacking out games? I've lived in the South Florida area since the team's inception and I've never seen a game being blacked out here. And how is this a public relations nightmare for MLB? It was a minor news article on the team websites for one day, and now nobody except BBF talks about it. Huizenga is a major part of the problem, but once the new stadium is built (which is going to happen, it's funded and the site has been cleared and the only thing standing in the way is a minor lawsuit which should be cleared up in the next few weeks) he's not our problem anymore


IIRC, the only reason a game in major league baseball gets blacked out is if both a national network and a local network are carrying the game, the national network game gets blacked out on a priority basis in favor of the local network.

We're not talking the NFL here. Black outs are not attendance based. Otherwise, we'd be having blackouts left and right in just about every market across the country.

[108stitches]

They are moving, it's just a matter of if they move/contract in 2 years (no new stadium) or if they move/contract in 10 years (new stadium will fail to draw). There is absolutely a public relations nightmare with the Marlins just like there was with the Montreal Expos. Such poorly attended games, especially for a winning ballclub, is a very real problem for MLB because it reduces the value of the product for other teams. It's like that trailer trash neighbor with peeling paint who never moes his junk strewn lawn -- it decrease everyone else's property values.

There are many viable candidates for relocation, and a new stadium does not have to be ready. There's numerous examples of teams that have moved with the idea to start construction and have a stadium ready 2-4 years down the line. Brooklyn to LA Dodgers is exhibit A.

It's not a simple one-time gate problem, it's a chronic gate problem and the Miami-Dade market has proven without a shadow of a doubt that it cannot support major league baseball.

They cannot or will not. Florida has a major identity problem from an owner basis. Has every Marlins owner been an idiot and insulted the entire fan base in Miami or am I just imaging it?

[PeteU]

They are moving, it's just a matter of if they move/contract in 2 years (no new stadium) or if they move/contract in 10 years (new stadium will fail to draw). There is absolutely a public relations nightmare with the Marlins just like there was with the Montreal Expos. Such poorly attended games, especially for a winning ballclub, is a very real problem for MLB because it reduces the value of the product for other teams. It's like that trailer trash neighbor with peeling paint who never moes his junk strewn lawn -- it decrease everyone else's property values.

There are many viable candidates for relocation, and a new stadium does not have to be ready. There's numerous examples of teams that have moved with the idea to start construction and have a stadium ready 2-4 years down the line. Brooklyn to LA Dodgers is exhibit A.

It's not a simple one-time gate problem, it's a chronic gate problem and the Miami-Dade market has proven without a shadow of a doubt that it cannot support major league baseball.

Balderdash.

First of all, contraction is never, ever, ever going to happen. You need to understand that. You talk about public relations nightmares, and contraction is the number one public relations nightmare for major league baseball. Contraction happens in struggling novelty sports leagues. It doesn't happen to the national pasttime. More importantly, the players union will fight contraction tooth and nail to the death.

I seriously doubt that the Marlins situation is hurting the values of other franchises. Even assuming arguendo that as you claim the Marlins situation is somehow "a public relations nightmare," it is strictly a localized issue.

A new stadium doesn't need to be ready to go to start play immediately, but finanicing for such a stadium needs to be approved for a relocation market to be viable. Otherwise you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul--you're trading one situation with an uncertain stadium situation to another situation with an uncertain stadium situation. And frankly, the Marlins new stadium situation is much more resolved than any potential relocation market's stadium situation, which no one--I repeat no one--other than Miami can offer. The money is approved and on the table. No one else can say that.

Very rarely does a team move to a new city without either a new stadium ready or financing for such a new stadium on the books. And in the later situation, there needs to be a temporary venue. You mention the LA Dodgers--they did have the Coliseum, it was something of a joke, but they somehow made it work for a few years. The fact that the field was wider then than it is now made it something less of a joke and nominally acceptable as a temporary venue. Today the LA Coliseum would never be considered an adequate temporary venue, nor would any NFL football only stadium in any market.

New markets without a MLB team with an adequate temporary venue are extremely limited. We're probably talking Montreal, Vancouver, and Portland. And with Portland we only have 20,000-25,000 seats, so it's only nominally an acceptable temporary venue. And none of those three cities have any type of finanicing plan in place for a permanent stadium.

I'm going to ask you a question: Why did MLB move the Expos to Washington, DC even with another franchise 40 miles up the road with an owner who had strongly objected to a team in DC? Why were all other cities in the Expos derby essentially considered afterthoughts behind DC? Answer that question, and you'll understand why relocation at this current point in time is extremely unlikely.

Finally, TV ratings for Marlins games are extremely strong. In the early days of the Marlins' franchise prior to the instability in ownership, attendance was strong. You're just flat out wrong when you claim that the South Florida market has somehow proven it is impossible to support a major league baseball team.

[aqib]

New markets without a MLB team with an adequate temporary venue are extremely limited. We're probably talking Montreal, Vancouver, and Portland. And with Portland we only have 20,000-25,000 seats, so it's only nominally an acceptable temporary venue. And none of those three cities have any type of finanicing plan in place for a permanent stadium.


So 25K seats if they were all filled would be worse than all the empty seats in Miami?

[PeteU]

So 25K seats if they were all filled would be worse than all the empty seats in Miami?

A team can only play in a minor league stadium so long before the entire operation is viewed as being minor league. Portland baseball can only work if a plan for a major league sized ballpark is approved. Play the team at PGE Park indefinitely and after two years people will get a distinct AAA vibe from the operation.

And that's assuming Portland will consistently sellout 25,000 a game. Attendance at....Beavers.....games has been far from stellar and towards the bottom end of AAA franchises.

[aqib]

A team can only play in a minor league stadium so long before the entire operation is viewed as being minor league. Portland baseball can only work if a plan for a major league sized ballpark is approved. Play the team at PGE Park indefinitely and after two years people will get a distinct AAA vibe from the operation.

And that's assuming Portland will consistently sellout 25,000 a game. Attendance at....Beavers.....games has been far from stellar and towards the bottom end of AAA franchises.

So let me get this straight. Getting over 20K in a AAA park for more than 3 years will give people a distinct AAA vibe, but an empty stadium for more then a decade well people should understand that and keep giving that market another chance, and how dare those people think of anything else.

[PeteU]

So let me get this straight. Getting over 20K in a AAA park for more than 3 years will give people a distinct AAA vibe, but an empty stadium for more then a decade well people should understand that and keep giving that market another chance, and how dare those people think of anything else.

Playing for more than two years at an inadequate stadium that doesn't have the opportunity for more revenue generation reflcts poorly and would limit that team with revenue generation. It works out to a situation where the best you can hope for is a continuation of the status quo.

And we are all assuming here that Portland will sell out PGE Park. From the attendance figures I see, they haven't set the PCL on fire--we're talking 5,000 and change.

[GordonGecko]

584 people at a ballgame prove folly of building a stadium

For the 455th consecutive time last Wednesday afternoon, 96-year-old Fenway Park in Boston sold every seat for a Red Sox game, tying baseball's record.

At the same time that Boston's Daisuke Matsuzaka was throwing his first pitch before 37,373 paid customers, Florida Marlins pitcher Chris Volstad was throwing one at 21-year-old Dolphin Stadium before 584 fans — counted by the players themselves.

That's all you need to know to understand why government's frenzy to waste half a billion dollars to build a Marlins stadium is off base.

As auto dealer Norman Braman plays his hand in court as the only public figure willing to buck the giveaway, the Marlins play to the smallest attendance in baseball, by thousands, day after day.

Even the Marlins' pitiful average of 16,576 paid through last Wednesday's game is suspect, because while players were counting 584, the Marlins were reporting an "official" 11,211 — though that's still far less than a third of capacity. Whether almost nobody bothered to use their tickets to see a team fighting for a title or the Marlins were fudging numbers, who knows?

What is perfectly clear is that few show up. No new stadium would change that.

more... http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/080911/story-viewpoint.shtml

[aqib]

That article points out there are 5 more agreements that need to be signed before the stadium goes through. Vancouver, Portland, San Antonio, get ready! Even if it goes through give it 10 years when the new stadium bounce fades and its back to a tomb to bad ideas.

[hellborn]

more... http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/080911/story-viewpoint.shtml

I don't really argue with the gist of this story, but the Bosox afternoon game wasn't especially well attended, either. It was a sellout, but reports indicated that Fenway wasn't even close to being full.
I have friends who attended, I'll ask them what it looked like.

[PeteU]

That article points out there are 5 more agreements that need to be signed before the stadium goes through. Vancouver, Portland, San Antonio, get ready! Even if it goes through give it 10 years when the new stadium bounce fades and its back to a tomb to bad ideas.

Okay, you do know that those "5 more agreements" are ancillary service agreements, right? Stuff like vendors, parking, etc. Nothing that would derail the approved financing plan. Right?

I know you get excited everytime you think the Marlins are going to move, but pace yourself. Please. For your own health.

So I really have to ask you, since you seem intent, almost obsessed, in seeing that the Marlins move out of South Florida. What is your plan? Where should they go? What market, with what temporary venue, and what stadium financing plan are they going to move? And no cop-outs, like "I'm sure the state legislature will approve the money down the line" or "Private investor X (who has never actually mentioned building a stadium before) will come up with the money." I'm talking about serious fact based factors as to how the market of your choice is going to lure the Marlins away. Again, keep it within the realm of reality.

[hellborn]

I don't really argue with the gist of this story, but the Bosox afternoon game wasn't especially well attended, either. It was a sellout, but reports indicated that Fenway wasn't even close to being full.
I have friends who attended, I'll ask them what it looked like.

I just heard back, and am told that there were definitely empty seats, but the park was mostly full.

[PeteU]

http://www.dailybusinessreview.com/news.html?news_id=50311

Marlins ballpark: Right time, right place

August 25, 2008

By: Robert Starkey

I have been involved with numerous ballpark projects across the country as a result of my consulting relationship with Major League Baseball and several of its clubs. In reading a recent Urban Forum column, I believe several important facts were ignored and welcome the opportunity to provide accurate information about the new ballpark planned for the site of the historic Orange Bowl football facility.

The team’s agreement with Miami-Dade County and the City of Miami calls for a first-class ballpark that is fully climatized with a retractable roof, air conditioning, real grass playing field, 37,000 seats and amenities similar to the MLB ballparks in San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee.

In contrast to open-air Dolphins Stadium, the new ballpark’s design and amenities will improve attendance by providing certainty of comfortable conditions, rain or shine. This assures games will start on time and will be uninterrupted, allowing fans to come from a greater distance with the certainty of seeing a game. The other four clubs with retractable roofed ballparks (Phoenix, Houston, Seattle and Milwaukee) have clearly enjoyed the benefits of providing protection for their fans from uncertain weather conditions.

The scale and design of the new ballpark will correct the deficiencies inherent in playing baseball in a football stadium, including poor sightlines, excessive seating, daunting spaces and other shortcomings that fans now suffer in the cavernous 75,000-seat Dolphins Stadium. In short, for Marlin fans, the new ballpark will be the antithesis of Dolphins Stadium.

Orange Bowl site qualities

With regard to the proposed Orange Bowl site, a few pertinent facts and characteristics are noteworthy:


Familiarity. Since 1937 the site has been accepted and recognized as a place for major sporting events in South Florida. The new ballpark provides the opportunity to preserve that legacy and carry it forward to future generations.

Infrastructure. Fans are also familiar with the existing infrastructure, including access ramps to and from Interstate highways. Modification and upgrades to existing infrastructure should be less extensive than preparing a new site never before used for major sporting events.

Site Development Opportunities. The 37,000-seat ballpark uses less than half of the existing 42 acres. Under the agreement, the balance will be used by local government for a multi-use city parking facility of at least 6,000 spaces, for retail, and for other uses to be determined, possibly including a hotel.

Surrounding Development Potential. In Little Havana between Miami International Airport and the Performing Arts Center and planned museum complex, with the Medical Center to the north and Downtown and the Government Center to the east, the location has attributes of other ballparks that have successfully spawned development in nearby and often underutilized spaces.

Location Dynamics. The site is within one mile of active labor forces, including several thousand jobs in medical services, local government and higher education, with additional facilities planned for the near future.


Ballpark agreement terms

The contributions and protections provided to the public by the team are both significant and progressive relative to other middle market ballpark transactions.


Team Financial Commitment. The team’s contribution of 30 percent of the capital budget is higher than the industry average of 20 to 25 percent private participation cited in recent discussion. Additionally, over the lease term, the team is committed to pay approximately $100 million for the city’s parking structure through pre-purchase of spaces. Finally, the team will assume 100 percent of the ballpark overrun construction risk and contribute to a capital improvement fund.

Other Team Commitments. In addition to the above financial commitments, the team has agreed to a 35-year ironclad lease and nonrelocation agreement, use of the facility for up to 16 nonprofit community events, an affordable ticket program, donations worth more than $1 million every year as well as a name change to the Miami Marlins.

MLB Commitments. In connection with the agreement, Major League Baseball has agreed to provide unprecedented resources including a $1 million matching LEED grant, a $3 million contribution to build a Baseball Academy in Hialeah, selection of Miami as a venue for the 2009 World Baseball Classic, and the potential for a future All-Star Game.


Additionally, construction of the new ballpark will create approximately 1,500 full-time equivalent jobs over the three-year construction period, and will allow many local firms to be part of the construction process.

These are the facts that readers should know about the new Marlins Ballpark site and agreement. The new ballpark will provide a place where this most diverse of communities comes together to pursue the Great American Pastime.

Robert Starkey, president of Starkey Sports Consulting, based in Minneapolis, has been an economic and financial consultant to MLB for 15 years. He served as an adviser to the Commissioner’s Blue Ribbon Panel on Baseball Economics and has been involved in ballpark initiatives throughout the league. Before forming his own company in 1999, Starkey led the Sports Consulting Practice Group for Arthur Andersen.

[aqib]

http://www.dailybusinessreview.com/news.html?news_id=50311

Marlins ballpark: Right time, right place

August 25, 2008

By: Robert Starkey

I have been involved with numerous ballpark projects across the country as a result of my consulting relationship with Major League Baseball and several of its clubs. In reading a recent Urban Forum column, I believe several important facts were ignored and welcome the opportunity to provide accurate information about the new ballpark planned for the site of the historic Orange Bowl football facility.

The team’s agreement with Miami-Dade County and the City of Miami calls for a first-class ballpark that is fully climatized with a retractable roof, air conditioning, real grass playing field, 37,000 seats and amenities similar to the MLB ballparks in San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee.

In contrast to open-air Dolphins Stadium, the new ballpark’s design and amenities will improve attendance by providing certainty of comfortable conditions, rain or shine. This assures games will start on time and will be uninterrupted, allowing fans to come from a greater distance with the certainty of seeing a game. The other four clubs with retractable roofed ballparks (Phoenix, Houston, Seattle and Milwaukee) have clearly enjoyed the benefits of providing protection for their fans from uncertain weather conditions.

The scale and design of the new ballpark will correct the deficiencies inherent in playing baseball in a football stadium, including poor sightlines, excessive seating, daunting spaces and other shortcomings that fans now suffer in the cavernous 75,000-seat Dolphins Stadium. In short, for Marlin fans, the new ballpark will be the antithesis of Dolphins Stadium.

Orange Bowl site qualities

With regard to the proposed Orange Bowl site, a few pertinent facts and characteristics are noteworthy:


Familiarity. Since 1937 the site has been accepted and recognized as a place for major sporting events in South Florida. The new ballpark provides the opportunity to preserve that legacy and carry it forward to future generations.

Infrastructure. Fans are also familiar with the existing infrastructure, including access ramps to and from Interstate highways. Modification and upgrades to existing infrastructure should be less extensive than preparing a new site never before used for major sporting events.

Site Development Opportunities. The 37,000-seat ballpark uses less than half of the existing 42 acres. Under the agreement, the balance will be used by local government for a multi-use city parking facility of at least 6,000 spaces, for retail, and for other uses to be determined, possibly including a hotel.

Surrounding Development Potential. In Little Havana between Miami International Airport and the Performing Arts Center and planned museum complex, with the Medical Center to the north and Downtown and the Government Center to the east, the location has attributes of other ballparks that have successfully spawned development in nearby and often underutilized spaces.

Location Dynamics. The site is within one mile of active labor forces, including several thousand jobs in medical services, local government and higher education, with additional facilities planned for the near future.


Ballpark agreement terms

The contributions and protections provided to the public by the team are both significant and progressive relative to other middle market ballpark transactions.


Team Financial Commitment. The team’s contribution of 30 percent of the capital budget is higher than the industry average of 20 to 25 percent private participation cited in recent discussion. Additionally, over the lease term, the team is committed to pay approximately $100 million for the city’s parking structure through pre-purchase of spaces. Finally, the team will assume 100 percent of the ballpark overrun construction risk and contribute to a capital improvement fund.

Other Team Commitments. In addition to the above financial commitments, the team has agreed to a 35-year ironclad lease and nonrelocation agreement, use of the facility for up to 16 nonprofit community events, an affordable ticket program, donations worth more than $1 million every year as well as a name change to the Miami Marlins.

MLB Commitments. In connection with the agreement, Major League Baseball has agreed to provide unprecedented resources including a $1 million matching LEED grant, a $3 million contribution to build a Baseball Academy in Hialeah, selection of Miami as a venue for the 2009 World Baseball Classic, and the potential for a future All-Star Game.


Additionally, construction of the new ballpark will create approximately 1,500 full-time equivalent jobs over the three-year construction period, and will allow many local firms to be part of the construction process.

These are the facts that readers should know about the new Marlins Ballpark site and agreement. The new ballpark will provide a place where this most diverse of communities comes together to pursue the Great American Pastime.

Robert Starkey, president of Starkey Sports Consulting, based in Minneapolis, has been an economic and financial consultant to MLB for 15 years. He served as an adviser to the Commissioner’s Blue Ribbon Panel on Baseball Economics and has been involved in ballpark initiatives throughout the league. Before forming his own company in 1999, Starkey led the Sports Consulting Practice Group for Arthur Andersen.

Wow a paid consultant to MLB is (gasp) publicly supporting MLB's decision to keep the Marlins in FLorida. Wow! I am stunned that a PAID consultant would come out and support what the people paying him are doing.

In other news both Obama and McCain's campaign managers think their bosses rock and predict victory in November

[PeteU]

Wow a paid consultant to MLB is (gasp) publicly supporting MLB's decision to keep the Marlins in FLorida. Wow! I am stunned that a PAID consultant would come out and support what the people paying him are doing.

In other news both Obama and McCain's campaign managers think their bosses rock and predict victory in November

Well, it certainly goes against the arguments that MLB is so embarassed by South Florida and wants out at all costs.

Now, back to my previous question. If you are so gung ho about moving the Marlins, where do you think they should move to, where are they going to play in the interim while a new stadium is built, and how are they going to pay for the new stadium? Just to get you on the record here.

[Sean O]

Now, back to my previous question. If you are so gung ho about moving the Marlins, where do you think they should move to, where are they going to play in the interim while a new stadium is built, and how are they going to pay for the new stadium? Just to get you on the record here.

Anywhere, really. Any reasonably open field can hold 600 people, right?

[Saltzy23]

Well, it certainly goes against the arguments that MLB is so embarassed by South Florida and wants out at all costs.

Now, back to my previous question. If you are so gung ho about moving the Marlins, where do you think they should move to, where are they going to play in the interim while a new stadium is built, and how are they going to pay for the new stadium? Just to get you on the record here.
See...that decision(wheras important), is not my issue. Baseball is important. I love it. Its not worth pissing away almost $500 mil of govt money. This is FLAT OUT Pork Barrell crap.... Let them play in front of 10,000 forever if they want to. I think its RIDICULOUS, but thats THEIR decision. Spending the $500 mil on something whos returns are questionable(at best) is my problem...

Someone who is a failure is in NO position to say 'Give me the best or I walk'...

This argument of 'Well...what else?!?' its completely baseless, and more so incredibly STUPID(sorry mods...it is)....

Who the F spends money they dont have on something 'Just cause. I mean what else? I mean....Ive tried other ways, and it didnt work, so I guess you have to give me $500 MILLION'....They havent earned one of the most expensive stadiums in sports. They just havent. Sorry. Not with an avg attendance under 17,000....and way WAY less in the stands...

Horrible analogy, but the best I can think of. Just cause the penthouse is available, and there is a bum with $5 to his name outside with no place to sleep doesnt mean he deserves the room with me picking up the rest of the tab....

[PeteU]

Anywhere, really. Any reasonably open field can hold 600 people, right?

I'm being serious. If you are advocating for the relocation of the Marlins, where are you suggesting they move the team, where would they play in the interim while waiting for a new stadium, and how is the new stadium going to be built? These are questions that need to be answered before we entertain fantasies of "Potential Market X deserves a team more than Existing Market Y!"

[six4three]

See...that decision(wheras important), is not my issue. Baseball is important. I love it. Its not worth pissing away almost $500 mil of govt money. This is FLAT OUT Pork Barrell crap....

It is also an entirely different discussion.

[Saltzy23]

It is also an entirely different discussion.
HUH???....Pork Barrell spending=spending govt money on public works simply to cater to a certain demographic/lobbiests/region, even though its a detriment to the public as a whole...

How is that not relevant?

[six4three]

Setting aside that some of your assertions are not proven as facts: Because it has nothing to do with the Marlins specifically.

You could bog down each and every thread on this board with the same distraction, as all stadiums use public money in some form.

It's a worthy conversation, but in its own thread.

[Saltzy23]

Setting aside that some of your assertions are not proven as facts: Because it has nothing to do with the Marlins specifically.

You could bog down each and every thread on this board with the same distraction, as all stadiums use public money in some form.

It's a worthy conversation, but in its own thread.
I diasgree.(obviously). My concern regarding the Marlins IS this unnecessary spending. I'm less concerned with the 'Well, where should they play?' side of the issue, and slighly more concerned with the total waste of $500 mil of govt money just cause there are seemingly no other present options....

[GordonGecko]

The discussion is the problem with the lack of Marlins fan support. Why, what should be done about it, etc... Ultimately MLB wants every franchise to succeed, and they wil do everything they can to get new stadiums built for every team so that they can maximize revenue, fan support, and give the team the best possible chance at making it. That doesn't mean that a new park will be successful. I think a new park will do nothing for Marlins support, I'd venture to say that attendance in year one will be somewhere between 50% and 75%, and drop off sharply in the following years. South Florida is a crappy market for pro baseball, even if the owner of baseball-fever lives there. If the taxpayers are willing to let something like this go through, then its their problem when the team is still a dud and their roads don't get repaired and teachers start quitting or get laid off.

[Saltzy23]

The discussion is the problem with the lack of Marlins fan support. Why, what should be done about it, etc... Ultimately MLB wants every franchise to succeed, and they wil do everything they can to get new stadiums built for every team so that they can maximize revenue, fan support, and give the team the best possible chance at making it. That doesn't mean that a new park will be successful. I think a new park will do nothing for Marlins support, I'd venture to say that attendance in year one will be somewhere between 50% and 75%, and drop off sharply in the following years. South Florida is a crappy market for pro baseball, even if the owner of baseball-fever lives there. If the taxpayers are willing to let something like this go through, then its their problem when the team is still a dud and their roads don't get repaired and teachers start quitting or get laid off.
Perfectly stated...

Im more amazed/concerned with the STUPIDITY of the general public in this country in regards to public funding for an unnessary $610 Million stadium for a team that draws 10,000-20,000 than how/where the Marlins will play going forward...

You wanna say its not 'relevant', fine....but I still have to get my 2 cents in, which I have now done...

[PeteU]

I diasgree.(obviously). My concern regarding the Marlins IS this unnecessary spending. I'm less concerned with the 'Well, where should they play?' side of the issue, and slighly more concerned with the total waste of $500 mil of govt money just cause there are seemingly no other present options....

Think about it. Putting aside the distinct possibility (and I would argue probablility) that a new stadium will help Marlins attendance significantly, whether a team draws 15,000 a game, 30,000 a game, or 40,000 a game, that's still a relatively small proportion of a metropolitian areas population in any instance.

So a $500 million publically funded stadium in Miami is really no worse than a $500 publically funded stadium in (hypothetically) Boston.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either you oppose publicly financing stadiums for all teams or for no teams. You don't get to pick and choose based on which teams you like and don't like.

[Saltzy23]

Think about it. Putting aside the distinct possibility (and I would argue probablility) that a new stadium will help Marlins attendance significantly, whether a team draws 15,000 a game, 30,000 a game, or 40,000 a game, that's still a relatively small proportion of a metropolitian areas population in any instance.

So a $500 million publically funded stadium in Miami is really no worse than a $500 publically funded stadium in (hypothetically) Boston.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either you oppose publicly financing stadiums for all teams or for no teams. You don't get to pick and choose based on which teams you like and don't like.
WHAT?!?...So, you DEFEND pork barrelling? Your point is 'people are people', and they all deserve the same $ for the same type of public works??? "They got $500 mil, so we want $500 mil too dammit!"...This is your argument?!? Wow...

Yea, see this is the reason why the country is losing money all over the place and why places in Wisconsin get the same % of $ to defend against terrorist attacks as NYC...

HORRIFIC(almost scary) logic...

How about determining which one will work? Who ACTUALLY(see bridges in Minnesota collapsing) needs the money. How about scaling the freaking project down from $600 to something closer to what the actual needs of the team are(Im fine with a nice $200-$300 mil stadium)...sh*t give em $100 mil to help pay for it...

But $500 mil on a team that has never shown they can support a fanbase that size is just plain DUMB...

[PeteU]

WHAT?!?...So, you DEFEND pork barrelling? Your point is 'people are people', and they all deserve the same $ for the same type of public works??? "They got $500 mil, so we want $500 mil too dammit!"...This is your argument?!? Wow...

Yea, see this is the reason why the country is losing money all over the place and why places in Wisconsin get the same % of $ to defend against terrorist attacks as NYC...

HORRIFIC(almost scary) logic...

How about determining which one will work? Who ACTUALLY(see bridges in Minnesota collapsing) needs the money. How about scaling the freaking project down from $600 to something closer to what the actual needs of the team are(Im fine with a nice $200-$300 mil stadium)...sh*t give em $100 mil to help pay for it...

But $500 mil on a team that has never shown they can support a fanbase that size is just plain DUMB...

Calm down, dude. No use for the HYSTERIC (capitalized) theatrics and the invoking of terrorism and collapsing of bridges. Next thing I know, you'll be invoking Goodwin's Law ("You know...the Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear...")

I think the fundamental debate is whether a ballpark serves a public purpose. There are good arguments for both sides. On one hand, it is hosting a private enterprise--a professional sports team. On the other hand, the enterprise bears the name of the city and has the potential to garner great civic pride, as well as possible economic development. I can see the argument both ways, but in the end I lean in favor of public financing because I think its a good thing for people who live in a given area to have a sports team to root for. Maybe I'm just too Pollyannaish about the whole situation, but oh well. That's how I am.

But if you oppose it, oppose it. Don't be so wishy washy on it (i.e. "Well I support it for City X, but oppose it for City Y" or "$500 million is not acceptable, but $200 million is...")

You should be more consistent on the subject. And by all means, chill out. The sky is not falling, I can assure you that.

[aqib]

Saltzy,

I think what some of the others are saying when they say its irrelevant is that you could go into the NYS, CitiField, Twins stadium threads and say how none of those cities should spend the money on stadiums. You could go into thread after thread and rip on spending for sports. But its more fun to rip on South Florida and its absolutely pathetic excuse for sports fans.

[Saltzy23]

Calm down, dude. No use for the HYSTERIC (capitalized) theatrics and the invoking of terrorism and collapsing of bridges. Next thing I know, you'll be invoking Goodwin's Law ("You know...the Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear...")

I think the fundamental debate is whether a ballpark serves a public purpose. There are good arguments for both sides. On one hand, it is hosting a private enterprise--a professional sports team. On the other hand, the enterprise bears the name of the city and has the potential to garner great civic pride, as well as possible economic development. I can see the argument both ways, but in the end I lean in favor of public financing because I think its a good thing for people who live in a given area to have a sports team to root for. Maybe I'm just too Pollyannaish about the whole situation, but oh well. That's how I am.

But if you oppose it, oppose it. Don't be so wishy washy on it (i.e. "Well I support it for City X, but oppose it for City Y" or "$500 million is not acceptable, but $200 million is...")

You should be more consistent on the subject. And by all means, chill out. The sky is not falling, I can assure you that.
Its pretty clear that we see the world in180 degree different ways my friend...

My man, if you think $200-$250 Mil(where the team pays a MUCH higher % of the total costs) for a team already established in a city to try and solidify the fan base(which Im OK with, assuming its done corectly)....which still gets them a stadium to try the 'Hey were here to stay' philosophy you want to try so much...

is the same as $610 mil, with the team barely scraping the invoice, than you may in all seriousness have the worst financial perspective/accumen I have ever witnessed in my entire life....I mean whats $400 million between friends...

I say lets build $600 mil stadiums for eveyone....ya know, to be fair and all...

yikes...

[GordonGecko]

Well you can make the argument that in some cities a new park will generate lots of new revenues from so many fans spending into the economy with more sales taxes, more tourists and trickle down business for local vendors. I happen to think that this will not be the case in Miami, people are too busy with more important things...

http://www.miami-hotels-fl.us/miami_photos/miami_beach_babes.jpg

[six4three]

Well you can make the argument that in some cities a new park will generate lots of new revenues from so many fans spending into the economy with more sales taxes, more tourists and trickle down business for local vendors.

One could make such an argument, but there's no evidence to support it. And lots to contradict it.

Stadiums are not a money-making enterprise for cities (unless you believe DC's promotional materials). The value they bring is measured in less concrete terms.

Still, wish this discussion was its own thread. The Marlins' stadium situation isn't really all that unique within the general "Should we spend public money on private businesses" question.

[Saltzy23]

One could make such an argument, but there's no evidence to support it. And lots to contradict it.

Stadiums are not a money-making enterprise for cities (unless you believe DC's promotional materials). The value they bring is measured in less concrete terms.

Still, wish this discussion was its own thread. The Marlins' stadium situation isn't really all that unique within the general "Should we spend public money on private businesses" question.
But it is for people like myself that arent opposed to the practice in gerenal, its just the outragous $ amount being used on this shaky SHAKY project...

Use the money. Its what taxes are for(well, sorta). Just be prudent and wise. Its a TOTALLY different argument. Dont tell me that cause NYC gave $ towards NYS/Citi that I cannot be opposed to roughly $300 mil thats being wasted in this case. Its not 'on/off' or 'black/white' They DO NOT need a freaking $600 Mil stadium. No way you can convince me of that....ever...

Give the g'damn team a stadium. You are all right. I have no "proof" it will fail(outside of 15 years of awful attendance, but whatever)...but WHY does it need to be almost as much as a team that drew 4 mil this year in the biggest city in the country? Why spend every.freaking.penny. that you can squeeze regarding funding? Please...one of you...tell me....

Maybe I just havent been phrasing the question the right way....

Its called waseful spending....and anyone, America, corporations, or individuals will eventually fail with ridiculous practices like that...

[Pelt]

Give the g'damn team a stadium. You are all right. I have no "proof" it will fail(outside of 15 years of awful attendance, but whatever)...but WHY does it need to be almost as much as a team that drew 4 mil this year in the biggest city in the country? Why spend every.freaking.penny. that you can squeeze regarding funding? Please...one of you...tell me....

From the article that PeteU posted earlier:

"The team’s agreement with Miami-Dade County and the City of Miami calls for a first-class ballpark that is fully climatized with a retractable roof, air conditioning, real grass playing field, 37,000 seats and amenities similar to the MLB ballparks in San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee."

A retractable roof about $150-$200 million right off the bat. Then you have to place a pricey stadium underneath of it. :p

[PeteU]

Give the g'damn team a stadium. You are all right.


Okay.


:rofl:

[PeteU]

Well you can make the argument that in some cities a new park will generate lots of new revenues from so many fans spending into the economy with more sales taxes, more tourists and trickle down business for local vendors. I happen to think that this will not be the case in Miami, people are too busy with more important things...

http://www.miami-hotels-fl.us/miami_photos/miami_beach_babes.jpg



Poontang as a reason why South Florida is a bad baseball market. As Ned Flanders might say, "Okily dokily." :noidea

[PeteU]

Saltzy,

I think what some of the others are saying when they say its irrelevant is that you could go into the NYS, CitiField, Twins stadium threads and say how none of those cities should spend the money on stadiums. You could go into thread after thread and rip on spending for sports. But its more fun to rip on South Florida and its absolutely pathetic excuse for sports fans.

Well at least I get a sense of your motivation. But you still haven't answered my question.

[PeteU]

My man, if you think $200-$250 Mil(where the team pays a MUCH higher % of the total costs) for a team already established in a city to try and solidify the fan base(which Im OK with, assuming its done corectly)....which still gets them a stadium to try the 'Hey were here to stay' philosophy you want to try so much...

is the same as $610 mil, with the team barely scraping the invoice, than you may in all seriousness have the worst financial perspective/accumen I have ever witnessed in my entire life....I mean whats $400 million between friends...



Public money is public money. If you are going to go on a crusade against public money used for ballparks....which it looks like you have, judging from all the angsty responses and capitalized letters....you've still got to be consistent about it. $250 million is still a lot of money, no matter what way you look at it.

[Saltzy23]

From the article that PeteU posted earlier:

"The team’s agreement with Miami-Dade County and the City of Miami calls for a first-class ballpark that is fully climatized with a retractable roof, air conditioning, real grass playing field, 37,000 seats and amenities similar to the MLB ballparks in San Diego, St. Louis, Houston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee."

A retractable roof about $150-$200 million right off the bat. Then you have to place a pricey stadium underneath of it. :p
Sigh...

They DONT NEED bells and whistles...I mean..."Well, of COURSE the rims are expensive, its a Ferrari, uhhh duh"...

I mean come on...Redesign the thing. They havent even starting building yet. I dont think a new set of prints will cost $300 mil...this "WELL, I mean were already at step 2 now....what, you want us to go back to Step 1" thing is stating to drive me nuts...

They need a Ford. A nice, '4 wheels and a seat', "get you from point A. to Point B. Ford"...you know why? Cause they havent shown they can drive yet. You get $600 mil, retractable roof publicly funded stadiums when you prove you are worth it...

30,000 seats, 60'6" and 90' down to the bags....prove you can fill that for 15-20 years and well start talking 'upgrades'...

I mean...WELL...I mean, people may not show up if its not state of the art...and we CANT have that, now can we?

[Saltzy23]

Public money is public money. If you are going to go on a crusade against public money used for ballparks....which it looks like you have, judging from all the angsty responses and capitalized letters....you've still got to be consistent about it. $250 million is still a lot of money, no matter what way you look at it.
CAPITAL LETTER ALERT!!!..

WHAT???...

Again, no offense you have the worst financial mind Ive ever seen...

Yup..$150-$200 mil worth of public money on top of the $155 the team is spending....so a nice $300-$350mil to build, where almost half is being spent by the team to attempt the "We're here to stay!, So come on out" logic youre so convinced would work...Im still against this, but I would say its 'me vs. you', and I understand how you would win the argument...

vs.

$455 Mil worth of public funding(and the whopping $155 mil by the team) to build a freaking retractable roof(lets gold plate the place too while were at it. I mean if were going this far...)stadium where the fans have never shown up before...

Yup...6 of one....again, whats $300-$400 amongst friends...

WOW...I have bridge Id love to sell you

[PeteU]

CAPITAL LETTER ALERT!!!..

WHAT???...

Again, no offense you have the worst financial mind Ive ever seen...

Yup..$150-$200 mil worth of public money on top of the $155 the team is spending....so a nice $300-$350mil to build, where almost half is being spent by the team to attempt the "We're here to stay!, So come on out" logic youre so convinced would work...Im still against this, but I would say its 'me vs. you', and I understand how you would win the argument...

vs.

$455 Mil worth of public funding(and the whopping $155 mil by the team) to build a freaking retractable roof(lets gold plate the place too while were at it. I mean if were going this far...)stadium where the fans have never shown up before...

Yup...6 of one....again, whats $300-$400 amongst friends...

WOW...I have bridge Id love to sell you

I wish I could better respond to you, but where you try to go with your analogies and logic--it makes my head hurt. I mean, come on. If you're going to be outraged, be outraged. $250 mil, $600 mil, you think it's all wrong, so why bother discriminating your outrage? Go travel the country and wave signs at the entrances of each and every stadium built with public funds. Call your congressman and demand you be given a hearing before Congress right now. Because you, my friend, are a financial guru who knows all, and we are not.

Otherwise, I suggest you sit back, crack open a beer, turn on the Mets game, call your old roommate and reminisce about 5 year old news reports, and realize the Marlins are likely to get a new ballpark and there is nothing you can do about it, but depite that the sun will still rise and shine on this earth once again.

[Saltzy23]

I wish I could better respond to you, but where you try to go with your analogies and logic--it makes my head hurt. I mean, come on. If you're going to be outraged, be outraged. $250 mil, $600 mil, you think it's all wrong, so why bother discriminating your outrage? Go travel the country and wave signs at the entrances of each and every stadium built with public funds. Call your congressman and demand you be given a hearing before Congress right now. Because you, my friend, are a financial guru who knows all, and we are not.

Otherwise, I suggest you sit back, crack open a beer, turn on the Mets game, call your old roommate and reminisce about 5 year old news reports, and realize the Marlins are likely to get a new ballpark and there is nothing you can do about it, but depite that the sun will still rise and shine on this earth once again.
Sorry man...youre very very VERY wrong here. Its logic like this that allows spending to go nuts in this coutry. NO....you spend what the perceived correct amount to acomplish the task is. You want no regulation. No cap. No reflection of whats actually needed. Nope...build the f'r big and bad and expensive as all hell....and it it fails...eh, well all be dead anyway...and it really didnt cost 'me' so whetever...

All this country does is "sit back, crack open a beer, turn on the Mets game". As long as it doesnt affect people personally, directly and implicitly people dont care. (see Iraq War, sorry..no more politics) Know what happens? People steal. They hook up buddies. They cut back alley deals... They build things that arent necsessary just cause they can, and it gets them votes... People say screw it...if they dont care Ill spend $100 mil when $50 mil is fine, and why the HELL wouldnt they? Its not like theres a downside for them....Extrapolate that and you get a doomed systematic illness....I mean..ever hear of the word corruption before?

Bottom line, no...I didnt say I have an issue with $250 mil per se. I wouldnt do it, but they are an MLB team, and something DOES have to happen one way or another. Only 3real options. I see the point...go for it...I think itll fail...but go for it...

$600 mil is spending money we dont have on something that could(and should) get built for 1/2 as much, with the same results....and getting mad is just spinning my wheels, so yep..why even bother protesting....I guess I should just shut my mouth and take out my check book...

again....yikes...

[aqib]

Well at least I get a sense of your motivation. But you still haven't answered my question.

Ok your original question as to where the team could go there are many options:

Vancouver - BC place can be ready fast. Canadian economy is booming the Canadian dollar is strong.

Portland - they had a funding offer for the Expos and a minor league park that can hold the team for 2 years

San Antonio - Alamo dome can be renovated to acomodate them for a while.

NYC - The Yankees and Mets can be strong armed and bought off.

Heck even put a team back in Montreal. The finances are better now then when Labatt Park's deal fell apart. Even they drew better.

[PeteU]

Sorry man...youre very very VERY wrong here. Its logic like this that allows spending to go nuts in this coutry. NO....you spend what the perceived correct amount to acomplish the task is. You want no regulation. No cap. No reflection of whats actually needed. Nope...build the f'r big and bad and expensive as all hell....and it it fails...eh, well all be dead anyway...and it really didnt cost 'me' so whetever...

All this country does is "sit back, crack open a beer, turn on the Mets game". As long as it doesnt affect people personally, directly and implicitly people dont care. (see Iraq War, sorry..no more politics) Know what happens? People steal. They hook up buddies. They cut back alley deals... They build things that arent necsessary just cause they can, and it gets them votes... People say screw it...if they dont care Ill spend $100 mil when $50 mil is fine, and why the HELL wouldnt they? Its not like theres a downside for them....Extrapolate that and you get a doomed systematic illness....I mean..ever hear of the word corruption before?

Bottom line, no...I didnt say I have an issue with $250 mil per se. I wouldnt do it, but they are an MLB team, and something DOES have to happen one way or another. Only 3real options. I see the point...go for it...I think itll fail...but go for it...

$600 mil is spending money we dont have on something that could(and should) get built for 1/2 as much, with the same results....and getting mad is just spinning my wheels, so yep..why even bother protesting....I guess I should just shut my mouth and take out my check book...

again....yikes...

If you're angry, you're angry. I respect that. I'm not telling you that if you feel strongly against it, don't be angry. Passion about issues--be it local, state, national or world--is usually a good thing.

I'm just telling you if you are indeed angry, to refocus your anger. You're picking a mere weed out of a huge field of weeds and laying out all your vengence and anger upon it. Teams that have historically struggled at the gate have recieved publicly funded ballparks in the past, many without any sort of team contribution. (See: Indians, Cleveland) You're acting like this is the first and only time it has happened in history, and it's not. And the majority of the time ballparks are built with a majority public money as opposed to private money.

If you do see it as a problem, it's not a Marlins problem, it's a professional sports problem. So I just find it curious that you put all your energy into this one team. Unless you want to talk about it as a nationwide problem instead of a local problem, you don't have much standing here. Especially given the fact you don't even live in South Florida and won't be paying a penny towards the ballpark.

[Saltzy23]

If you're angry, you're angry. I respect that. I'm not telling you that if you feel strongly against it, don't be angry. Passion about issues--be it local, state, national or world--is usually a good thing.

I'm just telling you if you are indeed angry, to refocus your anger. You're picking a mere weed out of a huge field of weeds and laying out all your vengence and anger upon it. Teams that have historically struggled at the gate have recieved publicly funded ballparks in the past, many without any sort of team contribution. (See: Indians, Cleveland) You're acting like this is the first and only time it has happened in history, and it's not. And the majority of the time ballparks are built with a majority public money as opposed to private money.

If you do see it as a problem, it's not a Marlins problem, it's a professional sports problem. So I just find it curious that you put all your energy into this one team. Unless you want to talk about it as a nationwide problem instead of a local problem, you don't have much standing here. Especially given the fact you don't even live in South Florida and won't be paying a penny towards the ballpark.
2 points. No other team in such a state of disrepair has ever gotten this kind of public funding. The teams that did proved that they were a viable professional team, that had a stable fan base. Dont compare the freaking Cleveland Indians and the Florida Marlins.

Next, again. Spend taxpayer money. GO freaking AHEAD. Youre right. I live in NYC. No way of me knowing what people in other regions need. That why I rely on officials to step in and say 'NO'. I havent exactly seen that in this country lately...sorry... This example is SO ludicris and clearly pork barrelled and over the top I have to get mad. I dont live in an idealist world. I know that some spending goes towards waste. I mean were talking about goventment spending. Its part and parcel....but going in KNOWING that you are spending HUNDREDS of millions more than you need to.....and why? OH...cause we can...duh...That I cannot live with...

[Saltzy23]

If you're angry, you're angry. I respect that. I'm not telling you that if you feel strongly against it, don't be angry. Passion about issues--be it local, state, national or world--is usually a good thing.

I'm just telling you if you are indeed angry, to refocus your anger. You're picking a mere weed out of a huge field of weeds and laying out all your vengence and anger upon it. Teams that have historically struggled at the gate have recieved publicly funded ballparks in the past, many without any sort of team contribution. (See: Indians, Cleveland) You're acting like this is the first and only time it has happened in history, and it's not. And the majority of the time ballparks are built with a majority public money as opposed to private money.

If you do see it as a problem, it's not a Marlins problem, it's a professional sports problem. So I just find it curious that you put all your energy into this one team. Unless you want to talk about it as a nationwide problem instead of a local problem, you don't have much standing here. Especially given the fact you don't even live in South Florida and won't be paying a penny towards the ballpark.
One other thing. If some lobbiest/representitive from Alabama says they need $50 mil to build a road cause they cant get 'Product A to Resale Area B.' or something as is, and they need public funding to get the thing built, and I say OK...and it turns out to be a 'road to no where' or some other total waste of money at least I can say, "Well, what the heck did I know about that anyway. Im from NYC. We took their word for it, and we were wrong"...

I live and die with baseball. I watch many many games. My team plays in the same division as the team in question. Outside of knowing the fan base better, I think our(everyone heres) knowledge of the situation is pretty similiar.

Again, some public works I woudnt know from Adam if they were planned and exacuted with any fiscal responsibility. As someone that knows and follows MLB baseball, and now following the construction of Citi Field so closely as well, I can state in FACT that massive amounts of money are being tossed into the gutter....I think thats why this ruffles my feathers so much...in most cases I dont/wouldnt know any better before the money was already wasted...

[aqib]

I'm just telling you if you are indeed angry, to refocus your anger. You're picking a mere weed out of a huge field of weeds and laying out all your vengence and anger upon it. Teams that have historically struggled at the gate have recieved publicly funded ballparks in the past, many without any sort of team contribution. (See: Indians, Cleveland) You're acting like this is the first and only time it has happened in history, and it's not. And the majority of the time ballparks are built with a majority public money as opposed to private money.


You can't compare the two situations. The Indians were horrible for years on end as the city was getting economically decimated. Florida has two world series titles, yes you had the fire sale after THE FIRST ONE. You came back and won a second one and you only lost 4 players, still the fans didn't come back. I guess what Saltzy is saying is why is Florida paying $600+ million for a park when clearly there isnt a fan base to support it.

[PeteU]

Ok your original question as to where the team could go there are many options:

Vancouver - BC place can be ready fast. Canadian economy is booming the Canadian dollar is strong.

Portland - they had a funding offer for the Expos and a minor league park that can hold the team for 2 years

San Antonio - Alamo dome can be renovated to acomodate them for a while.

NYC - The Yankees and Mets can be strong armed and bought off.

Heck even put a team back in Montreal. The finances are better now then when Labatt Park's deal fell apart. Even they drew better.

Okay, we're finally getting somewhere. Thank you.

Vancouver--assuming BC Place is still baseball convertible, then yes, it is an adequate temporary venue. Are you arguing that BC Place should be a permanent stadium or a temporary one? The thing about Vancouver is that it hasn't sought a major league baseball team in years, despite having BC Place. When the Expos were moving, it didn't even try to make a bid for the team. The bottom line is: Does the city want MLB?

Portland--I believe Portland had contingent partial funding along the lines of $115 million for the Expos. The rest of the money for a new stadium was all speculative and unapproved. That $115 million has since lapsed, and there's been no effort to revive it. As I mentioned before PGE Park would have a short shelf life as a temporary venue, assuming they don't renovate the place for soccer/football only as is planned. Not to mention the fact that Portland has never been in the upper eschilon of attendance in AAA (a little over 5,000 a game).

San Antonio--No funding for a new ballpark has ever been approved by San Antonio--there has been little more than just talk. Like Portland, San Antonio hasn't exactly set the minor leagues on fire in terms of attendance. Wolff Stadium is too small as a temporary venue and isn't easily expandable. The Alamodome--football only stadium. Unless you are a fan of 190 foot foul lines, we are talking major renovations to make the place baseball ready for what--2 years? To put it in perspective, it took about $20 million to prepare RFK for the Nationals, and all that involved was putting it back into baseball configuration, expanding the dugouts, renovating the press box and giving the place a nice paint job. Making the Alamodome even remotely baseball ready will probably cost $100-$150 million at a bare minimum. Add that onto the cost for a new stadium, which given the Texas summer heat would probably have to have a roof on it. San Antonio just isn't practical.

New York City--The Yankees and Mets aren't going to be strong armed into doing anything, especially as long as the anti-trust is in place. The only reason Peter Angelos capitulated to allowing the Nationals to move in is because MLB gave them a lions share of the TV Market. The Yankees have YES, so that point is moot. Plus funding, funding, funding--how's the stadium going to be paid for? And where's it going to be?

Finally, Montreal's going to have to want to get MLB back before it gets it back. And that means money for a new stadium, because a team's not going to be staying in Olympic Stadium indefinitely. I don't know where you are coming from when you are saying finances are better, because there is no effort to build a new ballpark in Montreal. And Labatt Park was proposed in 2000 and fell apart in 2001, during which those two seasons the Expos drew averages of 11,435 and 7,935 respectively, so your claim that this was better attendance than the Marlins is just blatantly wrong. Again, you need to do your homework before making these claims.

[PeteU]

No other team in such a state of disrepair has ever gotten this kind of public funding. The teams that did proved that they were a viable professional team, that had a stable fan base. Dont compare the freaking Cleveland Indians and the Florida Marlins.


You're partly right that there is no team that is an exact parallel to the Marlins situation (expansion team with quick rise to success followed by a major fire sale and two changes of ownership with threats of relocation, followed by an out of the blue championship season, followed by a more subtle but equally devestating fire sale, with more threats of relocation thereafter). I think the Rays situation matches up pretty nicely with that of the Seattle Mariners, but you don't have that luxury with the Marlins.

All that being said, you still have to look to the Indians in terms of raw fan support. Funding for Jacobs Field was approved in 1990. You have to go back 41 years before 1990 when the Indians last drew over an average of 20,000 in a season. As recently as five years prior to that the Indians were only drawing a hair above 8,000 a game. The Marlins only go back two years before an average of 20,000. Their first two years in franchise history they drew well over 30,000--they drew over 3 million total in 1993. With all things now in retrospect, would you have rather the Indians move in 1990 as had been threatened? Surely now you can say the Indians have a stable fan base after the fact, but you couldn't necessarily say the same thing back in 1990. I mean, they made the Major League movies about the Indians for a reason.

[PeteU]

One other thing. If some lobbiest/representitive from Alabama says they need $50 mil to build a road cause they cant get 'Product A to Resale Area B.' or something as is, and they need public funding to get the thing built, and I say OK...and it turns out to be a 'road to no where' or some other total waste of money at least I can say, "Well, what the heck did I know about that anyway. Im from NYC. We took their word for it, and we were wrong"...



I mean, it depends. Are we talking about interstate highways or some use of federal funds? Otherwise, what standing do I have to complain about the discretionary use of Alabama revenue funds in Alabama? I mean literally--the legal concept of standing comes to play in such a situation. I couldn't sue if I wanted to because it doesn't affect me. I would get thrown out of court in an instant.

The Marlins ballpark is being paid for by the Marlins, the City of Miami, and Miami-Dade County (and none of it via the general fund, by the way). Unless you live in one of those two locales, you can complain until you're blue in the face, but it isn't going to make a difference because it doesn't affect you.

[Saltzy23]

You're partly right that there is no team that is an exact parallel to the Marlins situation (expansion team with quick rise to success followed by a major fire sale and two changes of ownership with threats of relocation, followed by an out of the blue championship season, followed by a more subtle but equally devestating fire sale, with more threats of relocation thereafter). I think the Rays situation matches up pretty nicely with that of the Seattle Mariners, but you don't have that luxury with the Marlins.

All that being said, you still have to look to the Indians in terms of raw fan support. Funding for Jacobs Field was approved in 1990. You have to go back 41 years before 1990 when the Indians last drew over an average of 20,000 in a season. As recently as five years prior to that the Indians were only drawing a hair above 8,000 a game. The Marlins only go back two years before an average of 20,000. Their first two years in franchise history they drew well over 30,000--they drew over 3 million total in 1993. With all things now in retrospect, would you have rather the Indians move in 1990 as had been threatened? Surely now you can say the Indians have a stable fan base after the fact, but you couldn't necessarily say the same thing back in 1990. I mean, they made the Major League movies about the Indians for a reason.


Ironically enough...the owners solution in the movie...

MOVE TO FLORIDA!...sorry that was the comic relief I needed...

Anyway, the issues with the parallel you draw, at least from my POV are three fold...

A. Again, no personal issues with the funding in general. Just the OBSENE amount/% of the invoice being accounted for with public funds.
B. The Indians(even w/o a championship since '54 have history. They have dads who went with their sons. They have Bob Feller. They had(have) a foundation that was noticable and clear to any baseball fan. Their issue was STRICLTY that the stadium was falling apart. Same with the Tigers. Anyone could look at their crappy attendance and say "Uh, Well duh...the place is a total dump, of course no one shows up"
C. Kind of a continuation of B. Im not saying that Dolphin Stadium is fantastic(and Ive been there, so I can say with some knowledge), but its not competely awful. I would call it 'servicable', especially with the team that plays there, and the crowds they bring in. Theres no data anywhere, no history(outside of the first 2 years in the history of the team where of course they had some fans there. Thats just due to the fact that they were the 1st MLB baseball team in the history of the state) that you can show me that these fans even 'exist'. If anything youre proving that as soon as the newness wears off, no one will show up...

[PeteU]

A. Again, no personal issues with the funding in general. Just the OBSENE amount/% of the invoice being accounted for with public funds.

Well, if you want to have a consistent argument, you are going to have to have a personal issue with the funding in general. That's what so far has fueled your argument.

Now, as for the amount and percentage--the Marlins are kicking in $155 million. That's nearly 1/3 of the quoted pricetag. Figure that even if the Marlins were averaging 40,000 a game they'd still be at an economic disadvantage because of the truly horrible terms of the Dolphin Stadium lease (no money from luxury boxes, parking, concessions and 90% of the advertising), and figure that there have been many teams who haven't paid anything towards a new stadium, and the Marlins aren't looking too bad at all.


B. The Indians(even w/o a championship since '54 have history. They have dads who went with their sons. They have Bob Feller. They had(have) a foundation that was noticable and clear to any baseball fan. Their issue was STRICLTY that the stadium was falling apart. Same with the Tigers. Anyone could look at their crappy attendance and say "Uh, Well duh...the place is a total dump, of course no one shows up"

Both heartwarming and true. I am concerned, however, that Mr. "It's all about business" is getting a tab bit sentimental, however. It goes against your image. Anywho, yes the Indians have history. The Marlins have a much shorter history, but they still have history. And the Indians had dads and sons go to ballgames together at Cleveland Stadium and guess what....there would be 2,000 other people at the stadium. So how's that going reconcile that with your main argument? Fathers and sons have gone to Marlins games as well--I'm sure many in the crowds of 67,000 during the postseason came home with great memories. The fact is, the Indians back in 1990 were a struggling franchise with a poor gate. It hasn't stopped the team from being a much more stable franchise these days. Failing to draw in the past doesn't necessarily mean the team will never draw.


C. Kind of a continuation of B. Im not saying that Dolphin Stadium is fantastic(and Ive been there, so I can say with some knowledge), but its not competely awful. I would call it 'servicable', especially with the team that plays there, and the crowds they bring in. Theres no data anywhere, no history(outside of the first 2 years in the history of the team where of course they had some fans there. Thats just due to the fact that they were the 1st MLB baseball team in the history of the state) that you can show me that these fans even 'exist'. If anything youre proving that as soon as the newness wears off, no one will show up...

Dolphin Stadium is modern and "serviceable", yes. It also features hands down the worst lease in all of MLB (made payable to the a-hole former owner of the team) and the Marlins have always been forced to live as second class tenants of the place. And name the owner of the team, and you'll find they always wanted a place of their own for the Marlins (with veiled or not so veiled threats of relocation otherwise). You also have the issue of it being outdoors--which I think is secondary because give the team a stable identity and people will sit three hours in the heat and humidity to watch a team they know isn't going anywhere--but MLB has indicated the new ballpark has to have a retractable roof. And as much as I hate indoor baseball, it's not a horrible idea and would help the team much more than it would hurt.

Now, we're talking about an area of 7 million people and a TV market that gives its team one of the highest TV ratings in the majors. We're talking about a market that sold 65,000 seats to an exhibition game in 1991. And you poo-poo the first two seasons like it's nothing, but clearly it shows there is a potential fanbase there (and the fact of the matter is not all exhibition franchises set the league on fire with their initial draw their first season).

[aqib]

Now, we're talking about an area of 7 million people and a TV market that gives its team one of the highest TV ratings in the majors. We're talking about a market that sold 65,000 seats to an exhibition game in 1991. And you poo-poo the first two seasons like it's nothing, but clearly it shows there is a potential fanbase there (and the fact of the matter is not all exhibition franchises set the league on fire with their initial draw their first season).

The fact that 7 million people live in the area and attendance is so abysmal shows its a bad market.

Yeah the first two seasons are nothing. Washington drew 2.7 million fans their first year. Its called novelty. The Marlins attendance was already pathetic by 1996 (21K for an 80 win team). How do you expect to not have a fire sale after that?