The top 100 pitcher project Phase 2: Choosing tier 2 Round 1 pre-1893-NeL

[jjpm74]

Now that we've set up tier 1, we need to set up our other 5 tiers. The purpose of this round is to whittle down the general pool of pitchers to 20. They will join 20 from the other 4 sets and be whittled down to 20 to comprise tier 2. All preliminary round pitchers not selected to tier 1 are eligible for this round. From these sets, here are the choices:

Tommy Bond
Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Tommy Bridges
Andy Cooper
Bob Caruthers
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
John Clarkson
Wilbur Cooper
Larry Corcoran
Stan Coveleski
Candy Cummings
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Pud Galvin
Lefty Gomez
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Waite Hoyt
Bill Jackman
Addie Joss
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Ted Lyons
Rube Marquard
Bobby Mathews
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Joe McGinnity
Jose Mendez
Tony Mullane
Herb Pennock
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourne
Cannonball Dick Redding
Ed Reulbach
Eppa Rixey
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Urban Shocker
Hilton Smith
Al Spalding
Jesse Tannehill
Luis Tiant Sr.
Dazzy Vance
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Bucky Walters
Ed Walsh
John Ward
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Nip Winters
Smoky Joe Wood

Please choose 20!

[jjpm74]

Links to previous rounds:

Pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)
1969-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80460)
1986-2007 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80845)
Active Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81263)

Phase 2 threads

Tier 1 Round 1: pre-1893, 1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81666)
Tier 1 Round 2: 1919-1945, NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81856)
Tier 1 Round 3: 1946-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82095)
Tier 1 Round 4: 1986-present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1288021)
Tier 1 Round 5: Choosing Tier 1 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82535)
Tier 2 Round 1: 1893-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82737)
Tier 2 Round 2: 1946-present (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83028)

Phase 1 winners:

Pre-1893:

Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinnity
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Bill Jackman
Jose Mendez
Satchel Paige
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Luis Tiant Sr.
Smoky Joe Williams
Nip Winters

1946-1968:

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

1969-1985:

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

1986-2007:

Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Dennis Martinez
Jack Morris
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter
Frank Tanana
Fernando Vanenzuela
David Wells

Active pitchers:

Tom Glavine
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Hudson
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
C.C. Sabathia
Johan Santana
John Smoltz
Billy Wagner

Phase 2 winners

pre-1893, 1893-1919

Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Eddie Plank
Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Cy Young

1920-1945, pre NeL and NeL

Pete Alexander
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Satchel Paige
Bullet Joe Rogan
Dazzy Vance
Smoky Joe Williams

1946-1985

Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn

1986-present

Bert Blyleven
Roger Clemens
Dennis Eckersley
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
Nolan Ryan
John Smoltz

Tier 1

Pete Alexander
Steve Carlton
Roger Clemens
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Smoky Joe Williams
Cy Young

[BlueBlood]

1. Mordecai Brown
2. Ciccotte
3. Clarkson
4. Cooper
5. Coveleski
6. Dean
7. Ferrell
8. Keefe
9. Mays
10. McGinnity
11. Mullane
12. Plank
13. Redding
14. Rogan
15. Ruffing
16. Rusie
17. Vance
18. Waddell
19. Walsh
20. Wood

[STLCards2]

Can I have my vote for Tommy Bridges changes to Dazzy Vance , please? Sorry!

[BlueBlood]

I need to change a vote as well! I thought I was voting for Smokey Joe Williams when I checked the box. Change my vote from Smokey Joe Wood to Eppa Rixey. Thanks. :banghead:

[jjpm74]

Noted guys. Thanks!

[Paul Wendt]

Are these all the winners from the first four stage one polls (bold)?
pre-WWII and Negro baseball?

Pre-1893
1893-1919
1920-1945
NeL and Pre-NeL
1946-1968
1969-1985
1986-2007
Active Pitchers

If I understand correctly, the first tier includes 8 from these four polls (and 12 from the later four). So we all voted for 32 of these pitchers in stage two.

--
At this stage I vote for all of the five remaining Negro Leagues pitchers in the Hall of Merit.

Ray Brown
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Jose Mendez
Bullet Joe Rogan

Plus two "whole player" careers from the 19th century, as I explained in June.

Al Spalding
Bob Caruthers

That was easy and it leaves room for 13 more, some I supported early this week. I'll try to get back in time to vote.

[jjpm74]

Are these all the winners from the first four stage one polls (bold)?
pre-WWII and Negro baseball?

Pre-1893
1893-1919
1920-1945
NeL and Pre-NeL


Yes, everyone who advanced through to the second round from these groups minus our 8 who made it to tier 1.

[Brad Harris]

Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
John Clarkson
Martin Dihigo
Wes Ferrell
Bill Foster
Pud Galvin
Burleigh Grimes
Tim Keefe
Ted Lyons
Joe McGinnity
Jose Mendez
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourn
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Al Spalding
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh

[PVNICK]

Bender
Brown
Caruthers
Clarkson
Wilbur Cooper
Coveleski
Dean
Rube Foster
Galvin
Keefe
Lyons
Plank
Redding
Rusie
Shocker
Vance
Vaughn
Waddell
Walsh
Wood

[henrich]

A lot of quality pitchers here, had to dip to 9900+ but I found it an excellent group. I cut Cicotte at 21 who scored at 9891, which I found fitting with his black sox ties.

1. Eddie Plank 16,831
2. Red Ruffing 14,697
3. Mordecai Brown 13,659
4. Herb Pennock 13,312
5. Pud Galvin 12,739
6. Ed Walsh 12,626
7. Burleigh Grimes 11,722
8. Chief Bender 11,681
9. Rube Waddell 11,586
10. Tim Keefe 11,557
11. Vic Willis 11,397
12. Lefty Gomez 11,393
13. Mickey Welch 10,560
14. John Clarkson 10,483
15. Carl Mays 10,097
16. Stan Coveleski 10,071
17. Bucky Walters 10,047
18. Dazzy Vance 10,040
19. Tommy Bridges 9984
20. Charles Radbourne 9960

[bambambaseball]

Didnt we do this already :confused:

[Paul Wendt]

At this stage I vote for all of the five remaining Negro Leagues pitchers in the Hall of Merit.

Ray Brown
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Jose Mendez
Bullet Joe Rogan

Plus two "whole player" careers from the 19th century, as I explained in June.

Al Spalding
Bob Caruthers

That was easy and it leaves room for 13 more, some I supported early this week. I'll try to get back in time to vote.
Take the big stars with medium-long careers.

Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Morde Brown - after letting the air out, still good enough
Stan Coveleski
Dazzy Vance
Wes Ferrell

7+7 = 14

From the 300-game winners Clarkson is obvious and these other will rock no boats, giving my other selections more weight at the same time (and I do rank K R P above Galvin and Welch).

John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Charley Radbourn
Eddie Plank

That makes 18. The Hall of Merit lists Martin Dihigo as a pitcher. I need to learn more but for now, he should have the chance to run for this minor office (semifinalist for a chance to run for #30). Dizzy Dean is the other, a short career, although I'm not sure Dihigo would have pitched that much in the major leagues. Sabrmetrics a la Clay Davenport doesn't find air to let out of Dean; on the contrary, estimates that the Cardinals fielding gave up a few runs to league average. When he was on the field, Jay Hanna may have been the best player on the ballot, and that's enough to get my vote for that same minor office.

Martin Dihigo
Dizzy Dean

That makes 20. The leading leftovers by my take:
Galvin, Welch, Mullane; Willis, McGinnity, Joss; Faber, Rixey, Mays, Cooper, Shocker; Ruffing the overrated, Lyons the underrated, Walters the belated.

That makes 34, just over half. Take 'em all and we have 54 leaving 46 slots in the hundred for their colleagues who played after 1950, or for tidying up when the end of the hundred is in sight. Or for Sabathia if he keeps winning and this takes forever.

[jjpm74]

Only 1 day left. If we don't get to 20 votes, I'll ask an admin to extend this another 4 days to accommodate the weekend crowd. If we don't hit 20 at that point, this project dies an early death.

[DoubleX]

Per JJPM's request, I've added 4 days to this poll.

[jjpm74]

Thank you!

[jjpm74]

Now that the weekend is over, I'm hoping the reopened poll will get to at least 20 participants so we can keep this project going.

[jjpm74]

2 days left and it isn't looking good. We could use another 5 or 6 participants at the very least. We had almost 30 in the last round. Where are you? :)

[jjpm74]

A couple of hours left.

[jjpm74]

These pitchers will be combined with the next round to whittle down to tier 2:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Wes Ferrell
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourne
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh