Hughie Jennings most similar: Who deserves induction?

[Cowtipper]

Nine of the 10 players most similar to Hughie Jennings are not in the Hall of Fame. Those players are:

Cecil Travis
Ezra Sutton
Cupid Childs
Johnny Pesky
Tom Daly
Lou Bierbauer
Bill Hallman
Jimmy Williams
Billy Shindle

Which, if any, deserve induction into the Hall of Fame?

Here are some notable achievements, black ink, grey ink, and similar Hall of Famers for each:

Travis:

3-time AL All-Star (1938, 1940 & 1941)
AL Hits Leader (1941)
AL Singles Leader (1941)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1941)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1941)
200 Hits Seasons: 1 (1941)
Black ink: 3
Grey ink: 38
Similar Hall of Famers: Hughie Jennings

Sutton:

NL Hits Leader (1882)
NL Singles Leader (1882)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 2 (1883 & 1884)
Black ink: 3
Grey ink: 94
Similar Hall of Famers: Hughie Jennings

Childs:

AA Doubles Leader (1890)
NL On-Base Percentage Leader (1892)
NL Runs Scored Leader (1892)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 7 (1890-1894 & 1896-1897)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1896)
50 Stolen Bases Seasons: 1 (1890)
Black ink: 6
Grey ink: 75
Similar Hall of Famers: Hughie Jennings, King Kelly

Pesky:

AL All-Star (1946)
2-time AL At Bats Leader (1946 & 1947)
3-time AL Hits Leader (1942, 1946 & 1947)
3-time AL Singles Leader (1942, 1946 & 1947)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 6 (1942 & 1946-1950)
200 Hits Seasons: 3 (1942, 1946 & 1947)
Black ink: 11
Grey ink: 79
Similar Hall of Famers: Bucky Harris, Roger Bresnahan

Daly:

NL Doubles Leader (1901)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1894)
50 Stolen Bases Seasons: 1 (1894)
Black ink: 1
Grey ink: 17
Similar Hall of Famers: Phil Rizzuto

Bierbauer:

100 Runs Scored Seasons: 1 (1890)
100 RBI Seasons: 2 (1889 & 1894)
Grey ink: 33
Similar Hall of Famers: Wilbert Robinson

Hallman:

100 Runs Scored Seasons: 4 (1891-1894)
Black ink: 1
Grey ink: 21
Similar Hall of Famers: Phil Rizzuto, Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers

Williams:

3-Time Triples Leader (1899/NL & 1901-1902/AL)
200 Hits Seasons: 1 (1899)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 2 (1899 & 1901)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1899)
Black ink: 3
Grey ink: 95

Shindle:

PL Total Baseball Leader (1890)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 4 (1889-1890 & 1892 & 1893)
100 RBI Seasons: 1 (1897)
50 Stolen Bases Seasons: 3 (1888-1890)
Grey ink: 38

[jjpm74]

I've always considered Jennings over the hump mainly because of his career as a manager. Looking at the most similars, maybe that's not the case. Ezra Sutton is definitely over the line. Pesky is also over the line if we compensate for time lost during WWII. Childs, Williams and Hallman are also all solid candidates.

[jalbright]

The Travis/Pesky comparison is critical in my mind. Each of them was affected significantly by WWII service. Pesky slips over with credit for that, but since Travis slipped when he came back, I can't go that far for him. That leaves him out. Hughie is in the mix of managers as well, though, and being close in two different roles is enough to make him deserving in my mind.

[KCGHOST]

I guess I would go with Childs.

[PVNICK]

The Travis/Pesky comparison is critical in my mind. Each of them was affected significantly by WWII service. Pesky slips over with credit for that, but since Travis slipped when he came back, I can't go that far for him. That leaves him out. Hughie is in the mix of managers as well, though, and being close in two different roles is enough to make him deserving in my mind.

Can you really hold it against Travis considering he sustained frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge? Not that I think that qualifies him for the Hall but I think that coupled with leaving on the cusp of his prime @ 28 and coming back on the other side of it didn't help either. Both he and Buddy Lewis came up as teenagers were well on their way to amassing 3000 hits had they continued.

[jalbright]

The problem with Travis is that to put him in, you have to say he would have done better than he did but for his wartime experience. He's denied the frostbite claim, by the way. I can give him the lost years, but I can't stomach arbitrarily improving his actual record. When you take my stance, I don't think he gets there.

[PVNICK]

I'm not a fan of speculative extrapolation. Your just seemed flip considering what I thought, perhaps mistakenly, contributed to his not being near the same player when he came back. Just semantics on my part.

[jalbright]

I was trying to say, obviously not clearly enough, that had Travis picked up where he left off, he would likely make it for me. Unfortunately, he didn't. The only way to get him in is to play "what would he have done when he returned but for his service", which is basically a pick your scenario game. I just can't go that far, even if it isn't quite fair to Cecil. The problem is, if I do it for him, where do I draw the line?

[henrich]

I was trying to say, obviously not clearly enough, that had Travis picked up where he left off, he would likely make it for me. Unfortunately, he didn't. The only way to get him in is to play "what would he have done when he returned but for his service", which is basically a pick your scenario game. I just can't go that far, even if it isn't quite fair to Cecil. The problem is, if I do it for him, where do I draw the line?


I agree here wholeheartedly. I would prefer to keep the comparison the same, and only comparing them against their contemporaries in terms of who was the greatest at their position within their respective eras, however it is fun to debate the whatif game, so I'm cool with that. But in the end, it comes down to what did they accomplish between the lines. I don't even care about what they did off the diamond that may detract people from voting for them. If the commissioner allowed/allows it to happen, especially willingly, then why should an individual be punished by the writers. Who are the writers to determine a good person versus a bad person and morally speaking they snub a guy because they weren't nice to them or didn't talk to the media a la Jim Rice/Steve Garvey?

[jalbright]

I can give these guys some real credit for the actual time in the service, calculated essentially as 1/3 the last full season before it, 1/3 the first full season after it, and 1/3 an average career season. It's all based on what they actually did that way. Unfortunately, Travis suffers a little here because of his play once he returned, but once they've returned, I'm not rewriting actual play results. It's just too much.