All-Time best players not in the Hall of Fame

[BiZmaRK]

I'm going to say
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez

[jjpm74]

1. Rickey Henderson

[henrich]

Bert Blyleven

[Fuzzy Bear]

Not including Rose, Jackson, and those who are not eligible yet, here is my All-Time out of the HOF team:

1B Dick Allen
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Alan Trammell
3B Ron Santo
LF Tim Raines
CF Fred Lynn
RF Jose Canseco
C Joe Torre
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Carl Mays
SP Luis Tiant
SP Tommy John
SP Jim Kaat
RP Elroy Face
MGR Danny Murtaugh


Honorable mention goes to Al Rosen for peak value.

I'm not advocating that all of these player's be inducted; I'm just listing them by primary position.

[jalbright]

Excluding those who haven't been on the ballot for at least a few years (which catches Rose and Joe Jackson and the actives, among others), here's my all-outside the HOF team, first teamers listed first, reserves after:

C: Deacon White
Ted Simmons
1B: Dick Allen
John Beckwith
2B: Larry Doyle
Joe Gordon
3B: Ron Santo
Stan Hack
SS: Bill Dahlen
Alan Trammell
hon mention: Dobie Moore
OF: Sherry Magee
Paul Hines
Tim Raines
============
Harry Stovey
Minnie Minoso
Dave Parker
hon mention for peak: Chino Smith (though not a ten year man)
SP: Bert Blyleven
Carl Mays
Wes Ferrell
Wilbur Cooper
Bucky Walters
RP: Dan Quisenberry

I could support all these for the Hall. Some more strongly than others, of course. I do know this: this team would blow away the weakest of the HOF.

[leecemark]

C: Deacon White (also Freehan, Torre, Simmons, Bennett)
1B: Keith Hernandez (also Start, Allen)
2B: Ross Barnes (Whitaker, Grich, Gordon, Doyle)
3B: Ron Santo (also Sutton, Groh, Hack, Boyer, Nettles)
SS: Alan Trammel (also Dahlen)
LF: Minnie Minoso (Magee - Raines is better, but he has only been up once )
CF: Paul Hines (also Murphy, Gore)
RF: Andre Dawson (although I only support him due to his CF years)
SP: Bert Blyleven (Mullane, Ferrell)
RP: Dan Quisenberry is the best eligible reliever, althoug unlike the others listed I don't advocate him for Cooperstown.
Note: I only considered eligible major league players in forming this list.

[henrich]

Position Name Not yet eligible eligible but not in H-Factor
C I. Rodriguez x 10,893
C Elston Howard x 9470
1B Thomas x 12,936
1B Garvey x 11,605
2B Alomar R. x 12,264
2B Gordon x 10,265
SS A-Rod x 13,080
SS Dahlan x 9794
3B Jones C. x 10,922
3B Nettles x 10,208
LF Bonds Barry x 20,283
LF Rice x 11,347
CF Griffey jr. x 12,924
CF Murphy Dale x 10,392
RF Ramirez M. x 12,059
RF Parker x 12,494
OF Oliver x 10,157
OF Dawson x 12,370
SP Clemens x 23,322
SP Johnson R. x 18,476
SP Maddux x 18,133
SP Glavine x 14,730
SP Smoltz x 13,675
SP Blyleven x 15,941
SP John T. x 12,575
SP Kaat x 12,501
SP Reynolds Allie x 11,828
SP Morris, Jack x 11,678
RP Rivera x 12,258
RP Smith Lee x 12,291

I tried to keep the lines straight, I hope it's easy enough to read.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Dick Allen and Albert Belle are a couple who come to mind.

[BlueBlood]

Twenty Five Man Roster:

Starters:

C: Deacon White
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Alan Trammell
3B: Ron Santo
RF: Andre Dawson
CF: Paul Hines
LF: Tim Raines

Starting Rotation:

SP: Bert Blyleven
SP: Wes Ferrell
SP: Wilbur Cooper
SP: Tony Mullane
SP: Bob Caruthers

Relief Pitchers:

RP: Dan Quisenberry (iffy on him)
RP: Lee Smith (not even in the gray area)

Bench:

C: Ted Simmons
C: Charlie Bennett
1B: Joe Start
SS/2B: Ross Barnes
SS: Bill Dahlen
3B: Stan Hack
OF/DH/PH: Minnie Minoso
OF/DH/PH: George Gore
OF/DH/PH: George Van Haltren
OF/DH/PH: Sherry Magee

[bluezebra]

I'm going to say
Pete Rose
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez

Pete Rose..On the Ineligible List.
Barry Bonds..A player has to be retired for FIVE years before he can be put on the ballot, unless there are mitigating circumstances, such as Lou gehrig. And with the drug accusations hanging over his head, it may even be longer.
Alex Rodriguez..Still active, or haven't you noticed.

Bob

[bambambaseball]

Bobby Bonds should be in the hall of fame. He had all those 30 30 seasons. He was also better then his son.

[Yankeefan94]

Pete Rose
Alex Rodriguez
Joe Jackson
Ron Santo
Barry Bonds
Don Mattingly
Bert Blyleven

[henrich]

Bobby Bonds should be in the hall of fame. He had all those 30 30 seasons. He was also better then his son.

Bobby was a quality player but less than 1/2 of the value of his son to his team as I calculate it.

[BiZmaRK]

Not including Rose, Jackson, and those who are not eligible yet, here is my All-Time out of the HOF team:

1B Dick Allen
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Alan Trammell
3B Ron Santo
LF Tim Raines
CF Fred Lynn
RF Jose Canseco
C Joe Torre
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Carl Mays
SP Luis Tiant
SP Tommy John
SP Jim Kaat
RP Elroy Face
MGR Danny Murtaugh


Honorable mention goes to Al Rosen for peak value.

I'm not advocating that all of these player's be inducted; I'm just listing them by primary position.

Raines, Lynn & Canseco in the outfield, but not Bonds or Rose :confused:

Alan Trammell at shortstop, but not Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez. :confused:

[BiZmaRK]

Pete Rose..On the Ineligible List.
Barry Bonds..A player has to be retired for FIVE years before he can be put on the ballot, unless there are mitigating circumstances, such as Lou gehrig. And with the drug accusations hanging over his head, it may even be longer.
Alex Rodriguez..Still active, or haven't you noticed.

Bob
Please read the title of the thread.

Last time I checked, Bonds, Rose and Rodriguez were not in the HOF.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Raines, Lynn & Canseco in the outfield, but not Bonds or Rose :confused:

Alan Trammell at shortstop, but not Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez. :confused:

Jeter and Rodriguez are still active; they will go into the HOF on the first ballot.

Bonds is not retired 5 years. Rose would be in the HOF if he were eligible. That's another issue for another thread; no one denies that Rose's stats and performance on the field as a player are HOF caliber.

[jaxxr]

No love for Lefty O'Doul ?

Lifetime .349 BA, fourth best ever !

Better career RC650 than Mickey Mantle, Tris Speaker, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio, and Mel Ott, among others.

Helped train and send Joe DiMaggio to the majors, major influence on Ted Williams.
Only an 11 year career as a hitter, hurts, but his peak years are not rivaled by anyone eligible.

[TheMadDog31]

Bob Caruthers comes to mind instantly.

The man won 218 games, had a .688 winning percentage, a 2.83 earned run average, won 40 games twice, threw 298 complete games.

Carl Mays is another name. And obviously, Bert Blyleven.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Joe Jackson anyone?

[STLCards2]

Bob Caruthers comes to mind instantly.

The man won 218 games, had a .688 winning percentage, a 2.83 earned run average, won 40 games twice, threw 298 complete games.

.

Caruthers pitched most of his entire career in the AA - and even in that league hardly seperated himself as an all-time elite...

For all of his complete games, he only finished in the top 10 in CG's 3 times - keep in mind that this is the AA and a 1800's league where there were probably fewer than 25 regular starting pitchers. For the time he played, 298 complete games means virtualy nothing.

Caruthers finished in the top 5 in ERA+ only three times - far fewer than his HOF contemps.

Caruther's career 2,800 IP is way, way below most of the 1800 HOFers who not only had better ERA+ numbers, but also played in tougher leagues.

Career winning%? I am assuming that he played for some pretty good teams with pretty good offenses.

[MVP31]

Bobby Bonds should be in the hall of fame. He had all those 30 30 seasons. He was also better then his son.

Joking? I can't really tell.

[MVP31]

Dick Allen and Albert Belle are a couple who come to mind.

Albert Belle is probably one of the strangest cases of recent memory. One year and then off the ballot? Insane. I know he wasn't well-liked by the media, but that's unjustifiable.

Albert Belle > Kirby Puckett

It's amazing what two World Series wins will do for a guy's career.

[BiZmaRK]

Jeter and Rodriguez are still active; they will go into the HOF on the first ballot.

Bonds is not retired 5 years. Rose would be in the HOF if he were eligible. That's another issue for another thread; no one denies that Rose's stats and performance on the field as a player are HOF caliber.
I'm well aware that Jeter & Rodriguez are still active. I'm also aware that Bonds hasn't been retired for 5 years. I'm also aware that Rose isn't eligible for the HOF. But more importantly, none of them are in the HOF, and that's what this thread is about.

[BiZmaRK]

Bob Caruthers comes to mind instantly.

The man won 218 games, had a .688 winning percentage, a 2.83 earned run average, won 40 games twice, threw 298 complete games.

Carl Mays is another name. And obviously, Bert Blyleven.
Is it possible Bob Caruthers is related to former race car driver Jimmy Caruthers?

[Seattle1]

Edgar Martinez. They even named the DH award after him, that's how good he was!

[OleMissCub]

Albert Belle is probably one of the strangest cases of recent memory. One year and then off the ballot? Insane. I know he wasn't well-liked by the media, but that's unjustifiable.

Albert Belle > Kirby Puckett

It's amazing what two World Series wins will do for a guy's career.

No kidding. career 143 OPS+ >> 124 OPS+

[Michael Green]

For Pete Rose and Joe Jackson not to be in the HoF. Jon Miller had a great line. He said it's like the Chinese government airbrushing Mao out of pictures. You mean he wasn't the boss? Well, whatever they did wrong, they were great ballplayers.

I would like to throw out the name Gil Hodges. A great player on a great set of teams in Brooklyn, then the manager who pulled off one of the great miracles in baseball history in 1969 with the Mets.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

The two most obvious ones are Tim Raines and Bert Blyleven & Ron Santo. I strongly support the first two and not sure about Santo; wouldn't complain if he got in though.

The next cut of recent generational players includes Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Alan Trammell, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Orel Hershiser and I hope they all stay out because they're just below the line IMO.

[henrich]

For Pete Rose and Joe Jackson not to be in the HoF. Jon Miller had a great line. He said it's like the Chinese government airbrushing Mao out of pictures. You mean he wasn't the boss? Well, whatever they did wrong, they were great ballplayers.

I would like to throw out the name Gil Hodges. A great player on a great set of teams in Brooklyn, then the manager who pulled off one of the great miracles in baseball history in 1969 with the Mets.


I concur on Gil Hodges and the quote from Jon Miller-fantastic! You may want to add Bonds and Clemens to that list as well.

[Mike90]

I don't understand all this arguing for Rose being in the Hall of Fame. The rules were clear: If he was caught gambling on baseball, he would be banished from baseball for life. Rose knew what he was doing, and he did it anyway. Maybe the circumstances would be different if Rose had come clean, but he did not. After getting caught, he lied for 14 years saying he did not gamble on baseball. In 2004, he finally admitted the truth - when he had a book to sell.

Then there are players like Ron Santo and Tim Raines who are completely deserving of the Hall, did not gamble on baseball, and are still on the outside looking in.

Look, I could not care less whether Rose regains his eligibility. I think 19 years is a long punishment for someone who never bet against his own team. Rose's crime is not on the same level as Jackson's who at the very least knew that his teammates were fixing the World Series. Rose's gambling made baseball look bad, but it did not shake the foundation of the game. However, Rose caused his own problems. It's not Santo's fault that he played in the 60s with teams that weren't very good. It's not Raines' fault that he played for Montreal when they had a fan base of about 17 people.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I don't understand all this arguing for Rose being in the Hall of Fame. The rules were clear: If he was caught gambling on baseball, he would be banished from baseball for life. Rose knew what he was doing, and he did it anyway. Maybe the circumstances would be different if Rose had come clean, but he did not. After getting caught, he lied for 14 years saying he did not gamble on baseball. In 2004, he finally admitted the truth - when he had a book to sell.

Then there are players like Ron Santo and Tim Raines who are completely deserving of the Hall, did not gamble on baseball, and are still on the outside looking in.

Look, I could not care less whether Rose regains his eligibility. I think 19 years is a long punishment for someone who never bet against his own team. Rose's crime is not on the same level as Jackson's who at the very least knew that his teammates were fixing the World Series. Rose's gambling made baseball look bad, but it did not shake the foundation of the game. However, Rose caused his own problems. It's not Santo's fault that he played in the 60s with teams that weren't very good. It's not Raines' fault that he played for Montreal when they had a fan base of about 17 people.

The Expos not having fans is very much an unfortunate misconception. The Expos actually drew quite well when Raines was there. They also regularly had starters on the all-star team, so it's not like they were too far under the radar. How things ended is just that. The 80's were entirely different.

Raines has only been on the ballot all of one year. While he did receive a ridiculously low vote total in 2008, he's hardly a long-suffering candidate. He pretty much spent his last few seasons as a journeyman, his time in Chicago came at the same time as Frank Thomas's emergence as an all-time great hitter, and his time with the Yankees can hardly be called stellar. He was great in Montreal, one of the best, but I understand why he didn't get voted in right away. The last half of his career was not exactly superstar quality.

[Afterglow]

Ron Santo and Tim Raines who are completely deserving of the Hall, did not gamble on baseball, and are still on the outside looking in.

I think Raines should have been in by his third year of eligibility. But Santo? No..... It's sad that he has been sick. And he seems like a nice guy. But that does not make someone a hall of famer.

The guy had a nice career....But......

At home the guy batted .296, with an OBP of .383, and a slugging % of .522.

On the road he batted .257, with an OBP of .342, and a slugging % of .406. Let me repeat that. He had a slug% of .406!

He is a nice guy. But he has no buisness being in the hall of fame.

Unless he buys a ticket.

[Brad Harris]

I think Raines should have been in by his third year of eligibility.
Why are you speaking about this in the past tense? Raines has only been eligible for one year.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

What percentage of votes did Rock get his first year of eligibility?? I think Blyleven got something ridiculous like 13%!!!

[Afterglow]

Why are you speaking about this in the past tense? Raines has only been eligible for one year.


Opps. :eek: :hp

I forgot that he hasn't been retired for that long. lol

Just seems like it has been longer.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Here's an interesting Rock tidbit I wasn't aware of:

According to Wikipedia, Rock is listed as the 40th greatest non-pitcher in major-league history according to Bill James's win shares formula, one place ahead of Mark McGwire.

And to answer my own question, TR got 24% voting share on his first try.

[mandrake]

I think Raines should have been in by his third year of eligibility. But Santo? No..... It's sad that he has been sick. And he seems like a nice guy. But that does not make someone a hall of famer.

The guy had a nice career....But......

At home the guy batted .296, with an OBP of .383, and a slugging % of .522.

On the road he batted .257, with an OBP of .342, and a slugging % of .406. Let me repeat that. He had a slug% of .406!

He is a nice guy. But he has no buisness being in the hall of fame.

Unless he buys a ticket.


I am a Cub basher (can't stand 'em) but Ron Santo was the best 3rd baseman in the league until Schmidt showed up. Santo was the best 3b man in the NL for a decade. His peers (McCovey, Aaron, Mays, and others) seem to think so. I have pined on and on about Gil Hodges. If Tony perez is in, Gil should be right next to him. I think Tim Raines will get in soon. And I also think Jim Rice should be in. Career stats should not be the only yardstick. Who was dominant for a decade? Who did not just play 20 years and accumulated stats? (Darrell Evans comes to mind)

[Captain Cold Nose]

What percentage of votes did Rock get his first year of eligibility?? I think Blyleven got something ridiculous like 13%!!!

About 25%.

Remember, mandrake, Santo's peers were voting on him for a few years there. He came closer than anyone else, about 65% or so, but he still fell short after a few tries with all living HOF'ers voting.

He likely will get in, though. I would be shocked if Rice, less than 3% short in 2008, misses next year.

I would not complain if Gil Hodges made it, although I think others are ahead of him.

[Afterglow]

I am a Cub basher (can't stand 'em) but Ron Santo was the best 3rd baseman in the league until Schmidt showed up. Santo was the best 3b man in the NL for a decade. His peers (McCovey, Aaron, Mays, and others) seem to think so. I have pined on and on about Gil Hodges. If Tony perez is in, Gil should be right next to him. I think Tim Raines will get in soon. And I also think Jim Rice should be in. Career stats should not be the only yardstick. Who was dominant for a decade? Who did not just play 20 years and accumulated stats? (Darrell Evans comes to mind)


Defensivly he was a good third baseman. But....Outside of Wrigley, he was not great on offence. Atleast not compared to what he did at Wrigley.


I know his prime was in a bad offensive era. But.....if he wasn't a Cub. Nobody would have given him a second thought.

I just can't overlook how drastically different his numbers are outside of Wrigley.

[Paul Wendt]

For Pete Rose and Joe Jackson not to be in the HoF. Jon Miller had a great line. He said it's like the Chinese government airbrushing Mao out of pictures. You mean he wasn't the boss?
Perhaps there is a particular photo that I would know if watching the Olympics on TV. I doubt that any example would make this comment seem insightful to me. The analogy to airbrushing Mao out of photographs, plural, is more like passing over the 1919 World Series in all of the baseball museum's exhibits or leaving base hits out of a display on career records.

[Paul Wendt]

Remember, mandrake, Santo's peers were voting on him for a few years there. He came closer than anyone else, about 65% or so, but he still fell short after a few tries with all living HOF'ers voting.
--for Ron Santo 70% with roundoff, 57 of 82.

--all living HOFers and honored writers (Spink) and broadcasters (Frick). Now beginning this fall only the living HOFers will vote.

[mandrake]

--for Ron Santo 70% with roundoff, 57 of 82.

--all living HOFers and honored writers (Spink) and broadcasters (Frick). Now beginning this fall only the living HOFers will vote.

Looking at Santo's stats, (and I feel stats are not the only basis), but they seem to be in the same ball park as Billy Williams and maybe a notch below Ernie Banks. Santo 162 game avg season : 25 96 .277 Williams 28 96 .290 and Banks 33 105 .274

As 3b goes, who was the best in the NL approx 1963-73 ? I think Santo suffers a bit since it was pre-cable TV; the Cubs never won; the AL fans did not really get a chance to see him; His best years were 40 years ago and time may be passing him by. Maybe people think that with Jenkins, Banks and Williams already in, that is enough HOFers for a team that never won ?

I think he should be in.

[BiZmaRK]

I don't understand all this arguing for Rose being in the Hall of Fame. The rules were clear: If he was caught gambling on baseball, he would be banished from baseball for life. Rose knew what he was doing, and he did it anyway. Maybe the circumstances would be different if Rose had come clean, but he did not. After getting caught, he lied for 14 years saying he did not gamble on baseball. In 2004, he finally admitted the truth - when he had a book to sell.

Then there are players like Ron Santo and Tim Raines who are completely deserving of the Hall, did not gamble on baseball, and are still on the outside looking in.

Look, I could not care less whether Rose regains his eligibility. I think 19 years is a long punishment for someone who never bet against his own team. Rose's crime is not on the same level as Jackson's who at the very least knew that his teammates were fixing the World Series. Rose's gambling made baseball look bad, but it did not shake the foundation of the game. However, Rose caused his own problems. It's not Santo's fault that he played in the 60s with teams that weren't very good. It's not Raines' fault that he played for Montreal when they had a fan base of about 17 people.
I'm a little bit curious why this has digressed into a discussion about Pete Rose's eligibility. Whether eligible or not, he's probably the greatest MLB player ever who isn't in the HOF.

[White Knight]

Not including Rose, Jackson, and those who are not eligible yet, here is my All-Time out of the HOF team:

1B Dick Allen
2B Lou Whitaker
SS Alan Trammell
3B Ron Santo
LF Tim Raines
CF Fred Lynn
RF Jose Canseco
C Joe Torre
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Carl Mays
SP Luis Tiant
SP Tommy John
SP Jim Kaat
RP Elroy Face
MGR Danny Murtaugh


Honorable mention goes to Al Rosen for peak value.

I'm not advocating that all of these player's be inducted; I'm just listing them by primary position.

Canseco is listed but no McGwire? :confused:

[EdTarbusz]

For Pete Rose and Joe Jackson not to be in the HoF. Jon Miller had a great line. He said it's like the Chinese government airbrushing Mao out of pictures. You mean he wasn't the boss? Well, whatever they did wrong, they were great ballplayers.

.

I think that Bill James's comment about Joe Jackson is even better. James said that Jackson should be in the Hall of Fame, but only after every single person who had never participated in helping to fix a game was enshrined first.

[philkid3]

if he wasn't a Cub. Nobody would have given him a second thought.

That's definitely incorrect. For instance, people who subscribe to Baseball Prospectus and read the article where Nate Silver's formula weighing WARP3 found him to be the best player in baseball for a four year run would certainly give him at least a second thought.

I think you might be assuming that more people and/or systems of measurement ignore H/A splits than actually do.

[Brad Harris]

I don't understand all this arguing for Rose being in the Hall of Fame. The rules were clear: If he was caught gambling on baseball, he would be banished from baseball for life. Rose knew what he was doing, and he did it anyway. Maybe the circumstances would be different if Rose had come clean, but he did not.
You just completely undermined your original thesis with this last line. How does an admission of wrongdoing absolve an individual of their guilt? That's never made a lick of sense to me. Sounds like the type of crap I'd expect to hear from a certain presidential candidate these days. On the surface it sounds reasonable and compassionate, but there's no substance or logic to it.

[Mike90]

At home the guy batted .296, with an OBP of .383, and a slugging % of .522.

On the road he batted .257, with an OBP of .342, and a slugging % of .406. Let me repeat that. He had a slug% of .406!

I don't like using H/A splits to evaluate a player. If a park increases scoring by 15%, and I hit 30% better at home, I'm giving my team a competitive advantage through my improved hitting at home. Also, away stats tend to underrate position players from extreme hitters' parks like Coors Field because Rockies don't get to play at Coors Field for their away games.

Anyways, his OPS+, which accounts for a player's park, is 125. Pie Traynor has an OPS+ of 107 in 300 less games. George Kell has an OPS+ of 111 in about 450 less games. Santo belongs in the Hall.

[Mike90]

You just completely undermined your original thesis with this last line. How does an admission of wrongdoing absolve an individual of their guilt? That's never made a lick of sense to me. Sounds like the type of crap I'd expect to hear from a certain presidential candidate these days. On the surface it sounds reasonable and compassionate, but there's no substance or logic to it.

I do not believe an admission of wrongdoing absolves an individual of their guilt. Pete Rose, however, does believe that his admission of wrongdoing is one of the reasons he should be reinstated. On a very interesting CostasNow segment, Rose made comments to the effect of: "I came clean. I've been punished long enough for what I did, and I admitted what I did, and 19 years is too long to be kept away from the game I love for a guy who's come clean." I wished I hadn't deleted the recording, but that's basically what he said, that his coming clean should be taken into account.

I disagree. I don't think admitting what he did 14 years after the fact should be taken into any consideration.

[jalbright]

You just completely undermined your original thesis with this last line. How does an admission of wrongdoing absolve an individual of their guilt? That's never made a lick of sense to me. Sounds like the type of crap I'd expect to hear from a certain presidential candidate these days. On the surface it sounds reasonable and compassionate, but there's no substance or logic to it.

Part of the problem is that the original arrangement with the HOF clearly contemplated such an outcome with its express allowance for a petition for reinstatement after five years. Seems to me the reason for that provision was the idea Pete would come clean and get treatment for his compulsive gambling (and of course stop gambling). Had he done all that within two years of the making of the deal given the way the deal was set up, baseball would have been hard pressed to keep him out. Pete, though, has yet to deal with the root problem of his gambling and he compounded that failure with waiting so long to make his admission of wrongdoing. Pete never has gotten it in this whole sorry affair, and seemingly will go to his grave without getting it.

[Brad Harris]

I do not believe an admission of wrongdoing absolves an individual of their guilt. Pete Rose, however, does believe that his admission of wrongdoing is one of the reasons he should be reinstated. On a very interesting CostasNow segment, Rose made comments to the effect of: "I came clean. I've been punished long enough for what I did, and I admitted what I did, and 19 years is too long to be kept away from the game I love for a guy who's come clean." I wished I hadn't deleted the recording, but that's basically what he said, that his coming clean should be taken into account.

I disagree. I don't think admitting what he did 14 years after the fact should be taken into any consideration.

Ahh. Well, that makes a lot more sense. That was an allusion to what Rose thinks! In that case, yeah...I agree with you! Rose can believe what he wants, it doesn't make one bit of difference.

[BSmile]

Ahh. Well, that makes a lot more sense. That was an allusion to what Rose thinks! In that case, yeah...I agree with you! Rose can believe what he wants, it doesn't make one bit of difference.

Clearly, Bud Selig and MLB has the gut feeling (which I think is correct) that Pete Rose has never really changed. If he were reinstated, he might not be crazy enough to bet on baseball again...but he clearly still has a bad gambling problem. I think (imho) that it kills Bud that he can't trust Pete enough to reinstate him. If Pete had (starting years ago), come clean about everything and went to Gamblers Anonymous and really made an attempt to clean up his image (& stuck to it), then I believe he most likely would have been back in baseball by now. I think the window for Pete has closed for good at this point. Pete's only argument seems to be "It's been long enough", and that is clearly not good enough for Selig...and I honestly can't blame him.

[jalbright]

Pete can't be allowed back into the game if he cannot be trusted not to gamble--and under the circumstances, trusting him in that regard is only a tad better than putting a hungry fox in the henhouse and not expecting carnage. One can argue about whether the Hall should follow MLB's lead on this, but it's obvious that the Hall wants to please MLB, which is certainly sensible. Pete's damaged his case in numerous ways, but the most unforgiveable from MLB's standpoint is his refusal to deal with his gambling problem.

[Mike90]

Anyway, sorry for turning this into a Pete Rose discussion. IMO the best eligible players not in the Hall:

1) Tim Raines. Voters tend to overrate RBIs and underrate getting on base. Raines' .385 OBP was 33% better than the park-adjusted league average, while Dawson's .323 OBP was 6% worse than average. It hurt both of them that they had their best years before the offensive surge of the 90s.

2) Ron Santo. OPS+ is a good estimate of offensive ability. Santo had an OPS+ of 125 in 2243 games. George Kell had a much higher BA (.306 to Santo’s .277) but a significantly lower OPS+ of 111 in about 450 less games. Traynor has an OPS+ of 107 in 300 less games. Santo exceeds the standard of a hall of fame 3rd baseman.

3) Dick Allen. Isn’t enshrined because of the perception that he ripped teams apart. I think that rep is a little unfair after reading this article:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2069

[henrich]

You just completely undermined your original thesis with this last line. How does an admission of wrongdoing absolve an individual of their guilt? That's never made a lick of sense to me. Sounds like the type of crap I'd expect to hear from a certain presidential candidate these days. On the surface it sounds reasonable and compassionate, but there's no substance or logic to it.

Compare to politics anytime. I love it!

[josh24]

Bucky Walters.
1939 triple crown
W leader(NL) : 1939(27), 1940(22), 1944(23)
ERA leader(NL) : 1939(2.29), 1940(2.48)
K leader(NL) : 1939(137)
CG leader(NL) : 1939(31), 1940(29), 1941(27)
SHO leader(NL) : 1936(4)

1939 was his year. He didn't have amazing career numbers, but he deserve the Hall of Fame.

[jalbright]

Compare to politics anytime. I love it!

You may, but I don't. The post you refer to was just vague enough to pass--but darned near the line. My suggestion is to tread lightly on the stuff outside of baseball, lest your fingers get slapped by me or another mod.

[BlueBlood]

3) Dick Allen. Isn’t enshrined because of the perception that he ripped teams apart. I think that rep is a little unfair after reading this article:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2069

Coincidentally, on the same day you posted this, I went to the library and checked out a certain biography about a certain stat guru that included a certain link on a certain chapter concerning a certain Dick Allen. :rofl:

[henrich]

You may, but I don't. The post you refer to was just vague enough to pass--but darned near the line. My suggestion is to tread lightly on the stuff outside of baseball, lest your fingers get slapped by me or another mod.

Still showing my green side. I like analogies to make a point, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but it does add some humor. However your point is heard.

[yankillaz]

Haven't we done this before?

My list.

Tim Raines, LF
Max Carey, CF
Ron Santo, 3B
Dick Allen, 1B
Reggie Smith, RF
Joe Torre, C
Bobby Grich, 2B
George Davis, SS
Bert Blyleven, SP

Complete List:

P: Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, Luis Tiant, Mickey Lolich
RP: Lee Smith, Elroy Face, John Hiller
C: Ted Simmons
IF: Will Clark, Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans, Alan Trammell
OF: Sherry Magee, Willie Davis, Andre Dawson