Top 100 pitcher project phase 2: ranking round 3 1946-1985

[jjpm74]

The purpose of phase 2 of this project is to narrow down our round 1 candidates to 40 candidates who will eventually be narrowed down to 20. Here is the list of candidates we are choosing from in this round:

Vida Blue
Jim Bunning
Steve Carlton
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Rollie Fingers
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Tug McGraw
Denny McLain
Phil Neikro
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Wilbur Wood
Early Wynn

***This will be a vote for 10 and 10 only. Ballots cast with less than 10 or more than 10 will not be counted.***

This phase of polls will run for 4 days each to try to expedite this process.

[jjpm74]

Links to previous rounds:

Pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and Pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)
1969-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80460)
1986-2007 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80845)
Active Pitchers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81263)

Phase 2 threads

pre-1893, 1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81666)
1919-1945, NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81856)
1946-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=82095)

Phase 1 winners:

Pre-1893:

John Clarkson
Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinty
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

NeL and Pre-NeL:

Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Bill Jackman
Jose Mendez
Satchel Paige
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Luis Tiant Sr.
Smoky Joe Williams
Nip Winters

1946-1968:

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

1969-1985:

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

1986-2007:

Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Dennis Martinez
Jack Morris
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Bruce Sutter*
Frank Tanana
Fernando Vanenzuela
David Wells

Active pitchers:

Tom Glavine
Roy Halladay
Trevor Hoffman
Tim Hudson
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Roy Oswalt
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
C.C. Sabathia
Johan Santana
John Smoltz
Billy Wagner

Phase 2 winners

pre-1893, 1893-1919

Mordecai Brown
John Clarkson
Tim Keefe
Christy Matthewson
Kid Nichols
Eddie Plank
Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Cy Young

1920-1945, pre NeL and NeL

Pete Alexander
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Satchel Paige
Bullet Joe Rogan
Dazzy Vance
Smoky Joe Williams

*Bruce Sutter was somehow overlooked in the preliminary rounds. He will be appearing in phase 2.

[jjpm74]

This is a really tough group to choose from, IMO. There are several pitchers from this group I see as top 50 that didn't make the cut for me.

[JDD]

This era is too large... think about it.

Bob Feller and the Quiz, in the same grouping?

This should have been cut off at 1967.... something like pre-Koufax and post-Koufax.

[Paul Wendt]

Feller and Dutch Leonard alone were pre-WWII stars and thereby close contemporaries of the later round one winners from the Negro Leagues.

Quisenberry alone stands out a lot.
The early/mid 1970s debuts do not show up in this group: Blyleven, Tanana, Martinez, Gossage, Eckersley, Sutter.

The following series counts the debuts of the 4000-inning pitchers by decade, 1870s-1980s. Underline marks the debut decades for the pitchers who are in this poll 1930s-60s. Feller didn't pitch 4000; the one 1930s debut is Early Wynn 1939.

3 6 3 3 4 2 1 2 1 8 3 3

Remarkably, all twelve on this ballot pitched more than 4500 innings where they constitute 12 of only 27 pitchers.

--
Bill James ranks 13 of these pitchers in his top 25. Hey, 14 of his top 26 with Phil Niekro.

--
In my parlance this group is broad/wide/deep in the second tier, where Carl Hubbell stands alone among the major league pitchers in the preceding group. The upcoming group, like the last one, will be top-heavy.

[jjpm74]

This era is too large... think about it.

Bob Feller and the Quiz, in the same grouping?

This should have been cut off at 1967.... something like pre-Koufax and post-Koufax.

It was in the last round. We're moving away from generational rankings.

[henrich]

This is a really tough group to choose from, IMO. There are several pitchers from this group I see as top 50 that didn't make the cut for me.

These were many greats of the greats.

[Brad Harris]

Two guys who can use some support:

Juan Marichal - From 1954-1973, no pitcher in major league baseball won more games than the Dominican Dandy.

Phil Niekro - Win shares has him as the best pitcher in the National League what?...3? 4 times? Much more than just an "accumulator."

[BlueBlood]

Bunning
Carlton
Feller
Ford
Gibson
Koufax
Marichal
Palmer
Seaver
Spahn

[jjpm74]

A day and change left. This could use a few voters.

[Paul Wendt]

Two guys who can use some support:

Juan Marichal - From 1954-1973, no pitcher in major league baseball won more games than the Dominican Dandy.

Phil Niekro - Win shares has him as the best pitcher in the National League what?...3? 4 times? Much more than just an "accumulator."

I found room for both knuckleballs, Phil Niekro and Hoyt Wilhelm.

Juan Marichal was better in reputation than in reality. Several of these pitchers were as good as Marichal in his prime and Marichal didn't achieve much outside it. On that pattern I voted for Robin Roberts who in his best seasons by ERA+ also led the league in starts six times, innings five times.

On the high peak and short career pattern, Sandy Koufax.

Jim Palmer was one of my favorite players as a boy and youth. Whitey Ford was a favorite of many who are older. They enjoyed great fielding support for hit and run records and also (like Marichal) great team support for their W-L records. I will vote for Palmer somewhere in the top 40, perhaps Ford and Marichal too, but not at this stage.

Six others were fairly easy votes: Carlton, Feller, Gibson, Perry, Seaver, Spahn

[STLCards2]

This field was loaded. Is there no way we could expand this field by about 5 spots? There are probably 7-8 guys that will be left on here that are better than Lefty Gomez, who was sent through in another round.

[Los Bravos]

This field was loaded. Yes, it was. I had to leave half a dozen high quality guys out in the cold.

[jjpm74]

This field was loaded. Is there no way we could expand this field by about 5 spots? There are probably 7-8 guys that will be left on here that are better than Lefty Gomez, who was sent through in another round.

Even though we all had to leave some true greats off our ballots, the way the next phase is set up, we can still get some of them into the top 20. That's primarily why we're going from 40 to 20 then having the 20 also rans go back into the general pool of pitchers for the next tier. ;)

[jjpm74]

The following pitchers will go on to the next round:

Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Tom Seaver
Warren Spahn