Possible Name/Stadium Location for Jersey-Based team

[Anubis2051]

I'm sorta spinning this outa the A's/Marlins thread. We all know NJ is one of the biggest baseball hotbeds in the country (Trenton Thunder has been one of the highest drawing teams for the past 10 years), and could most likely support a MLB team. Ignoring the fact that the Yankees, Mets, and Phillies would most likley try and block the move, where do you guys think a team would play? what would the stadium look like, and what would they be called? These are the options I see as viable:

Locations:

The meadowlands-
The most obvious site, already proven as a sports venue. Can easily house a team. However, does not offer much in the way of scenery or surrounding shops, unless you count the disaster that is xandu.

Jersey City-
Would love to see this, with the cities great history with the giants farm team, as well as the dodger home games. Stadium could be built near liberty state park (possibly on the old railroad grounds, which serves as the ferry terminal and needs a huge makeover), and would offer a great view of the statue of liberty and downtown Manhattan, and offers the ability to recreate Roosevelt Stadium. Big possibility here IMHO.

Hoboken- Birthplace of baseball, what more do you need? Great place for a true retro park.

Newark-
This is my personal favorite site. The city is starting to rebound, and this would only help it further. The addition of the Prudential Center has proven that the city is a Viable location, and the bears have a long history in the city. Bears Stadium could house the team while it was either expanded or a new site was built. The Bears Name could be used, with either the Newark or New Jersey Tags.


Harrison-
Directly across the river from Newark. Home to the new Red Bull Park expected to be complete next year. Good town, and has a good amount of unused warehouses that could be used as a stadium site. Unfortunately, the town is much more of a soccer town (In the US? Weird Right?) due to its large immigrant population and may not embrace a baseball team, however the rest of the state most likely would make up for this.

Trenton-
Don't realy see this happening, but the Minor league team here has been very successful, and would most likely be considered, however, I feel that the town is just considered too unsafe to house a team.

Atlantic City-
As much as I don't see this happening, and as much as I hate AC, I think this would be my favorite one. It goes perfectly with the states desire to improve the city, and the stadium possibilities are endless, think of all the lights and casino-esc designs that would be possible, it could be gorgeous. With all the land on the outskirts of the city, it would be easy to procure the land, however, I feel that if they could put a stadium right on the boardwalk, it would be phenomenal. The view would be great, especially if the outfield offered a view up the boardwalk up the casino, and they could even have an entrance on the boardwalk, with games and restaurants and everything. If a retractable roof was employed it could be billed as a replacement to the aging convention center, and could be a truly year round facility to host boxing etc. This would also give them the ability to use two of my favorite names: The Atlantic City/New Jersey Atlantians, and the Atlantic City/New Jersey Seagulls (don't know why I like the last one, just has a good ring to it if you ask me). Unfortunately, MLB's strict anti-gambling policy would crush this attempt, unless the city were to forbid gambling on the team in the city (similar reason why Vegas didn't get a team).

ok, now for the fun part, team names/colors:

Meadowlarks- one of the finalists for the Mets names, I used to hate it but its grown on me. Would work best in north jersey, with the New Jersey Tag. Colors would be Black and Yellow (Colors of the Bird) or Blue and Yellow (State Colors).

Bears- Current Name for Newark's minor league team. Has a long history as a Yankee farm club, and IMHO is a great name, which could be used with either the Newark or New Jersey Tags. Colors are currently black and white, and would need a bit of sprucing up.

Revolution- In honor of New Jersey's contributions to the revolutionary war. any Tag works. colors would be red, white and blue, with an emphasis on red.

Patriots- See Above

Generals- Similar reasoning as above. Logo features stars, and colors are green and gold.

Battleship- This is in honor of the most decorated ship ever in the USN. Features a reverse tagging, something more common in European sports than American and would be known as the Battleship New Jersey. Colors are Gun Metal Gray and Yellow. Also offers endless stadium design options.

Shore- For an AC based team only, and only with the New Jersey Tag. Named after the most famous part of the state. Colors are Blue and Yellow.

Atlantians- My favorite, only works for an AC based team, named after the atlantic ocean and the city. colors are royal blue and white.

Seagulls- I really like this one too for some reason. Works best with an AC based team, Colors are Yellow, Marron, and White.

Devils- I know, it's taken, but it really is the best name for a team from jersey. Hey, if there can be two teams named the Giants in different sports in the same city, why not two teams named the devils in NJ?

So what do you think, anyone else have any ideads?

[RoastedPeanut]

Peregrines

[BigMac1212]

Since Devils has been taken by the NHL team, a nice substitute for a nickname could be Demons.

[Manhattan]

Since Devils has been taken by the NHL team, a nice substitute for a nickname could be Demons.
Another nickname for the New Jersey baseball team could be Warlocks.

[mandrake]

Even though Newark has the very best transportation in NJ, and even though a lot of money is pumped into the city, I am still unsure of the crime factor there. In another post, I mentioned where I dropped my wife and daughter off at the Prudential Center for Hannah Montana at 4pm 12/29. I decided to walk up to McGovern's for a pint and a burger (on New St near Washinton). When I got there, it was closed until 6pm, so I had to make a u-turn and walk back to the Pru. I was on Broad and Market when somebody was shot where I had just been sixty seconds earlier(two blocks away)! I would love Newark to be cleaned up like NYC, but until it happens I would hesitate to go there for baseball. If a team did play in or around Newark, I would vote for the Newark Bears. And I don't care which league the team played in.

Xanadu is the dumbest looking thing I have ever seen. I went to Giants Stadium to see Springsteen and did not know whether I should laugh or cry when I saw Xanadu. Even if a team played near the meadowlands, I would stil prefer the name Newark Bears.

[reh303]

Xanadu is the dumbest looking thing I have ever seen. I went to Giants Stadium to see Springsteen and did not know whether I should laugh or cry when I saw Xanadu. Even if a team played near the meadowlands, I would stil prefer the name Newark Bears.

The Xanadu is hideous. Whose bright idea was it to use a patchwork of corrugated metal to construct a building?

[Seattle1]

They could play in Atlantic City and be called the Gamblers.

[Tacosaregood/metsguy234]

Atlantic City Boardwalks. And their mascot could be the monopoly guy:

http://www.bradfox.com/blog/images/monopoly.jpg

:D

[Yankees2k6]

Xanadu is garbage from the start.

Anyways, on topic. I live in NJ, I'd love to see a team in Jersey City, my hometown, born, & raised.

[PeteU]

My problem with a New Jersey based team--other than the obvious fact that we really do not need a third team in the NYC metro area (two is quite enough, thank you very much)--is that there is really no there there. New Jersey is for all intents and purposes one big suburb (whether it is New York in the north or Philly in the south). You're sticking a team in the suburbs, and associating the team with the suburbs. That's why the Giants and Jets still go by their original New York monikers. That's why the Nets are moving across the Hudson. True, you have the one holdout in the Devils, but I just don't see the cache of having a team that lacks that certain cosmopolitian association.

If the team goes by town designations such as Jersey City, Hoboken, East Rutherford, Trenton, Atlantic City--none of these towns scream major league in the least. You'd inevitably have the feeling it is a minor league team just by how it sounds, and you'd almost expect them to have a gimmicky name (like something with [Qualifier] Dogs/Cats). The only Jersey city that might be an exception is Newark, which has its own major airport and is home of the new Devils arena, but Newarks' rep as being its own major city is still shaky IMHO. You hear Newark and you still think NYC suburbs, not Newark.

It's the same feeling I got when they wanted to put a team in Northern Virginia. If they did ever put a team in Northern Virginia, the only names I could associate with such a team would be Northern Virginia Strip Malls, Northern Virginia Office Parks, Northern Virginia Gated Communities, etc. (I guess for New Jersey you could have the New Jersey Loopy-Doos or whatever they call those things they make you do instead of being able to just turn left :mad: ).

Then again, to be devil's advocate to my own argument, one could say that the Angels and Rangers are two teams associated more with the suburbs than the core city in the metro area. But I don't know--New Jersey as a major league "city"? I'll pass.

[six4three]

Hoboken- Birthplace of baseball, what more do you need?
Well, a little historical accuracy (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/0708/1223744.html), for one. ;)

I think either Jersey City or Hoboken would be great. An urban park, close to the city, with the potential for stunning views.

I don't see the Meadowlands as a viable option. The transport from New York City is messy at best, and it'd be too tempting to draw from NYC to write them off altogether. It's dying as a sports location, with the Devils and the Nets, and I have yet to hear anybody really excited about Xanadu.

It's my understanding that Atlantic City's economy is way too shaky.

[Tacosaregood/metsguy234]

Loopy-Doo= Jughandle

But don't tell that guy before :shhh: :D

[PeteU]

Loopy-Doo= Jughandle

But don't tell that guy before :shhh: :D

Jughandles, that's it.

Stupidest thing I've ever seen. I think the first time driving in New Jersey I just said screw it and made an illegal left. :D

[reh303]

Jughandles, that's it.

Stupidest thing I've ever seen. I think the first time driving in New Jersey I just said screw it and made an illegal left. :D

They're actually much easier than left turns, and relieve traffic in the left lanes.

[jimmyjimjimz]

how about the New Jersey Sopranos?

or the New Jersey Bruces?

or the New Jersey Wendys? (Wendy is the girl that Springsteen sings about in like every song he sings, that must be his wife's name)

or the New Jersey Bon Jovis?

OR........................................

the New Jersey Wah Wah's? For some strange reason, the only place I ever see Wah Wah's is New Jersey.

[Anubis2051]

how about the New Jersey Sopranos?

or the New Jersey Bruces?

or the New Jersey Wendys? (Wendy is the girl that Springsteen sings about in like every song he sings, that must be his wife's name)

or the New Jersey Bon Jovis?

OR........................................

the New Jersey Wah Wah's? For some strange reason, the only place I ever see Wah Wah's is New Jersey.

It's WaWa, and they're all over the north east, I think they go as far south as baltimore. Wah-Wah, however is bon jovi's signature sound. You know, come to think of it, since Sinatra is from jersey, they could go with "New Jersey Swingers".

And of course all of this brings up all the great new jersey-related music that could be used in the stadium. stolen base? born to run. home run? come fly with me. closer enters from the bullpen? livin' on a prayer (I've always wanted to see this for some reason).

oh, and I thought of another one: The New Jersey Turnpikes, colors are black, green and white.

[Urbanshocker13]

It's WaWa, and they're all over the north east, I think they go as far south as baltimore. Wah-Wah, however is bon jovi's signature sound. You know, come to think of it, since Sinatra is from jersey, they could go with "New Jersey Swingers".

And of course all of this brings up all the great new jersey-related music that could be used in the stadium. stolen base? born to run. home run? come fly with me. closer enters from the bullpen? livin' on a prayer (I've always wanted to see this for some reason).

oh, and I thought of another one: The New Jersey Turnpikes, colors are black, green and white.

Jersey Swingers is just a scary scary name, I really wouldn't want to see THAT mascot! LOL The Turnpikes is a pretty good one, how about the strip malls!

[Transic]

It would cost a pretty penny but how about taking over the Newport Mall and building a stadium there? It is not like there aren't thousands of similar megamalls like that in the state. :shhh:

How about Staten Island? Not in New Jersey but close enough.

[NJMetfan4life]

The Jersey Diners! Brings what's so famous and there would be great food instead of overpriced nachos.

[Wall-E]

The Atlantic City Highrollers. Snakes Eyes as the logo. Craps table green as the main color with a strip of red as the second color.

Thread over.

[Fuzzy]

The Atlantic City Highrollers. Snakes Eyes as the logo. Craps table green as the main color with a strip of red as the second color.

Thread over.

theres a pro ball club in atlantic city called the atlantic city surf http://www.acsurf.com/index.php

[efin98]

Nobody in favor of the oldtime Newark pro team nicknames: Eurekas, Adriatics, Peppers, Tornados or the most famous- Eagles?

[PeteU]

How about the New Jersey NeverGonnaHappens? East Rutherford Third Wheels? New Jersey MetsandYankeesWillVetotheIdeaonaDropofaHats?

Or, if you want a Sopranos theme....


The North Caldwell FuggetAboutIts.

[HoJoPiazza2031]

Grrrrrrrrrr.

Easy there, it was in jest. Like I said, I lived in Jersey, and thought it was vastly superior to NY. That was more a dig at the people of philadelphia

[BeatEmBucs]

It's the same feeling I got when they wanted to put a team in Northern Virginia. If they did ever put a team in Northern Virginia, the only names I could associate with such a team would be Northern Virginia Strip Malls, Northern Virginia Office Parks, Northern Virginia Gated Communities, etc. (I guess for New Jersey you could have the New Jersey Loopy-Doos or whatever they call those things they make you do instead of being able to just turn left :mad: ).


I would've called them the Supernovas. It would be a great name, since NOVA would stand for Northern Virginia, and a Supernova is an exploding star. I'm kinda surprised no other team is named that but it would fit. Of course the biggest problem with a Northern Virginia team is which office park area they'd put it in. Fairfax or Herndon would've required expansion of both 66 and the Dulles Toll Road, and forget about putting the team off of an exit of the Capital Beltway, look how well that's worked out for the Redskins. Luckily the Expos move and DC building a new ballpark have rendered this moot.

As for Jersey, I would call them the Pikers, with an angry looking Pike fish looking like he was stuck in traffic, just like most mototists on the NJ Turnpike. I would put the stadium at the junction of the NJ Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway, just for the fun of it.:rofl:

[metfan13]

or the New Jersey Wendys? (Wendy is the girl that Springsteen sings about in like every song he sings, that must be his wife's name)



Actually just mentioned in Born to Run. (and not his wife)

And I don't see any way MLB puts a team in Jersey. About as realistic as the Brooklyn fanatics thinking they'll get their team back.

[jimmyjimjimz]

Actually just mentioned in Born to Run. (and not his wife)

And I don't see any way MLB puts a team in Jersey. About as realistic as the Brooklyn fanatics thinking they'll get their team back.

they kinda did get their team back with the Cyclones. It's not exactly the Dodgers, but it's still a pro baseball team.

[Coach Bombay]

Jersey Jackals

[Mario Mendoza...HOF Lock]

If the team goes by town designations such as Jersey City, Hoboken, East Rutherford, Trenton, Atlantic City--none of these towns scream major league in the least. You'd inevitably have the feeling it is a minor league team just by how it sounds, and you'd almost expect them to have a gimmicky name (like something with [Qualifier] Dogs/Cats). The only Jersey city that might be an exception is Newark, which has its own major airport and is home of the new Devils arena, but Newarks' rep as being its own major city is still shaky IMHO. You hear Newark and you still think NYC suburbs, not Newark.


As someone who was born in Jersey City, but temporarily lives in South Carolina now, I won't argue that it does not "scream" major city to most. I don't wish to turn this into a skyline thread, but Jersey City, especially along the waterfront, is growing by leaps and bounds. Part of this is New Yorkers who wish to escape the high cost of housing.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2243/2099165461_a11a131725.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/374019196_3b68798bb0.jpg

A waterfront stadium would be sweet, and the team would easily draw 25-30,000 a game. Having to travel into Penn Station, then take a train to the Yankee & Shea can be a pain; taking the NJ Turnpike or a train right to a waterfront stadium would be easy and economical. Not that it will happen though, this is merely a fantasy(or a nightmare, depending on where you live).

[Power Wally]

I would think the Yankees would have exclusive territorial rights for the NYC area with the AL, and ditto for the Mets for the NL.

[metfan13]

I would think the Yankees would have exclusive territorial rights for the NYC area with the AL, and ditto for the Mets for the NL.

Yes, of course. But people keep bringing it up.

[Fuzzy]

how about the New Jersey Sopranos?

or the New Jersey Bruces?

or the New Jersey Wendys? (Wendy is the girl that Springsteen sings about in like every song he sings, that must be his wife's name)

or the New Jersey Bon Jovis?

OR........................................

the New Jersey Wah Wah's? For some strange reason, the only place I ever see Wah Wah's is New Jersey.

Actually just mentioned in Born to Run. (and not his wife)

And I don't see any way MLB puts a team in Jersey. About as realistic as the Brooklyn fanatics thinking they'll get their team back.

in an early version of born to run the girls name was chrissie not wendy

i have it on a bootleg somewhere

[aqib]

I don't wish to turn this into a skyline thread, but Jersey City, especially along the waterfront, is growing by leaps and bounds. Part of this is New Yorkers who wish to escape the high cost of housing.

Also, they pay a lower price to live in Jersey and have a view of NY as opposed to paying a high price in NY to have a view of Jersey.

[PeteU]

As someone who was born in Jersey City, but temporarily lives in South Carolina now, I won't argue that it does not "scream" major city to most. I don't wish to turn this into a skyline thread, but Jersey City, especially along the waterfront, is growing by leaps and bounds. Part of this is New Yorkers who wish to escape the high cost of housing.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2243/2099165461_a11a131725.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/374019196_3b68798bb0.jpg

A waterfront stadium would be sweet, and the team would easily draw 25-30,000 a game. Having to travel into Penn Station, then take a train to the Yankee & Shea can be a pain; taking the NJ Turnpike or a train right to a waterfront stadium would be easy and economical. Not that it will happen though, this is merely a fantasy(or a nightmare, depending on where you live).

Interesting. The Jersey City skyline is more impressive than I had previously thought--it sort of works as an extension of the Manhattan skyline on the west side of the Hudson.

Still, I think the perception among most is that it is more of a super-suburb rather than its own city. Much like Fort Lauderdale is to Miami. Of course, Anahiem is arguably a super-suburb of LA, so a MLB team there wouldn't necessarily be unprecedented.

Still, I don't see it a NJ team ever getting by the Yankees or Mets, I still question the notion that fans will drop their loyalties to existing teams like that, and I don't think most people (including myself) care to see another team in the NYC metro area.

[metfan13]

in an early version of born to run the girls name was chrissie not wendy

i have it on a bootleg somewhere

Pretty sure you're thinking of the early version of Thunder Road.

[mandrake]

Pretty sure you're thinking of the early version of Thunder Road.

Hey, if you where I can get a copy, let me know ! My wife is Chrissie and we go to Springsteen all over the place. She may even get me MLB tickets for this one.

Seriously, JC NJ is so built up now. 20 years ago they could have had the Colgate Plant for nothing. We drove around JC on Friday night and parked our car in Newport Mall so we could jump on the PATH and go to MSG. (Saves us at least $35 on parking/tolls.) You can not believe how JC looks compared to 1988 !!!!!!!!

I could see putting a stadium on the old tracks of the RR terminal. LF would have a view of lower Manhattan including a rebuilt WTC. RF would look at the Statue of Liberty. And the Rays or Marlins would draw 3 million.

[J.R.]

I could see putting a stadium on the old tracks of the RR terminal. LF would have a view of lower Manhattan including a rebuilt WTC. RF would look at the Statue of Liberty. And the Rays or Marlins would draw 3 million.

MLB is crazy not to do this, but I understand why the Mets/Yanks would fight it.

[Coach Bombay]

Isn't North Jersey mostly Yankee country?

[Transic]

Isn't North Jersey mostly Yankee country?

That's what I heard. It brings me to another point: Perhaps the league should be determined by the location of the ballpark, depending on which of the other teams has the most presence. If it's in Jersey City, then perhaps the NL may be the better fit, as the Mets wouldn't care as much. If it's in Brooklyn, so as to not cannibalize on the Mets' presence, the AL may be better. The purpose would be to balance out the leverage of one of the teams.

ETA: A team in Jersey City should have "Jersey City" as part of its name. You have the name of the state included already, while being located inside what's basically a mid-size city. It can absolutely work out.

[Coach Bombay]

Is Jersey City smaller than say Kansas City?

[PeteU]

Is Jersey City smaller than say Kansas City?

Kansas City has a population in its city limits of 447,306; Jersey City's city population is 240,055. I think the more important distinction is that Kansas City has its own metropolitan area with its own suburbs, whereas Jersey City's "suburbs" are really New York City's suburbs. As I said before, Jersey City and Newark are really supersuburbs of New York City.

I think all the talk about putting teams in the NYC metro area is just that, talk, but I also think it is misguided. What good is the national pasttime if you want to congregate a bulk of the teams in one area? The New York City metro area has an American League team. It has a National League team. That should be the extent of its representation in Major League Baseball. Anything else is superfluous. We don't need to be congreating all our major league baseball teams in suburbs of the largest metropolitian areas, places that don't even constitute true "cities" in the classical sense of the word.

[Mario Mendoza...HOF Lock]

Is Jersey City smaller than say Kansas City?

KC probably has a bigger city population (about 450,000 vs Jersey City's 250,000). KC has a metro area of 2 million, while Jersey City has a much bigger metro area, per se. However JC can not technically claim a larger metro area since it is actually considered part of the NYC metro area, and Newark, just to the west, has it's own metro area. But there's no denying there are a lot more people within a 25 mile radius of JC than KC (and that's not including NYC).

But the Mets & Yanks will not give up their territorial rights, if they in fact have any. I would have thought the NHL's Rangers and Islanders would have had territorial rights, but the Devils moved nearby in 1982, and they have prospered. The market could easily bear a 3rd team, but it likely won't happen.

[jimmyjimjimz]

what about upstate NY? Like up in Albany or Buffalo?

[alpineinc]

Seriously, JC NJ is so built up now. 20 years ago they could have had the Colgate Plant for nothing. We drove around JC on Friday night and parked our car in Newport Mall so we could jump on the PATH and go to MSG. (Saves us at least $35 on parking/tolls.) You can not believe how JC looks compared to 1988 !!!!!!!!

I could see putting a stadium on the old tracks of the RR terminal. LF would have a view of lower Manhattan including a rebuilt WTC. RF would look at the Statue of Liberty. And the Rays or Marlins would draw 3 million.

I was also born in JC and the downtown area is now first rate, with high rise condo construction still continuing at a fever pace, especially along the southern waterfront. Trump just finished his new tower in the area. And good call, the RR terminal would be a perfect place for a stadium. Plenty of room, easy highway access, views second to none, easy tie-in to Liberty State Park, etc. Never happen, but neat to think about.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/17/f5/32/liberty-state-park.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/266328120_7199ba2667_b.jpg

[Urbanshocker13]

what about upstate NY? Like up in Albany or Buffalo?

LOL!!! Up here isn't no even close to being big enough to support a MLB team! The "Albany/Schenectady/ Troy" has a population of maybe 600,000. We are hoping to get an AA team again in Albany (there is an A team in troy) not a MLB team! Buffalo maybe.

[stadiumbuilder]

I think the Jersey City waterfront is an ideal place for a major league ballpark. But I also think "The Trenton Taxes" would be a great name for the team, so it doesn't work. The waterfront would have been a great place for the Yankees as most of North Jersey is Yankee territory. It took me 3 1/2 hours to get to the Bronx Friday night.

[J.R.]

Kansas City has a population in its city limits of 447,306; Jersey City's city population is 240,055. I think the more important distinction is that Kansas City has its own metropolitan area with its own suburbs, whereas Jersey City's "suburbs" are really New York City's suburbs. As I said before, Jersey City and Newark are really supersuburbs of New York City.

I think all the talk about putting teams in the NYC metro area is just that, talk, but I also think it is misguided. What good is the national pasttime if you want to congregate a bulk of the teams in one area? The New York City metro area has an American League team. It has a National League team. That should be the extent of its representation in Major League Baseball. Anything else is superfluous. We don't need to be congreating all our major league baseball teams in suburbs of the largest metropolitian areas, places that don't even constitute true "cities" in the classical sense of the word.

I believe that once all the viable "virgin" markets are occupied, MLB needs to look again at the old markets that could sustain additional business. Our cities will continue to grow, and MLB needs to grow with them.

In NY metro, both of the existing teams are basically selling out their seasons. In addition, with the new parks, the Yanks and Mets have pushed many existing season ticket holders to the cheapest, least desirable seats, if not out of the stadium entirely. There is plenty of room for a Jersey team, especially one that could play the "value" proposition.

[Fuzzy]

I believe that once all the viable "virgin" markets are occupied, MLB needs to look again at the old markets that could sustain additional business. Our cities will continue to grow, and MLB needs to grow with them.

In NY metro, both of the existing teams are basically selling out their seasons. In addition, with the new parks, the Yanks and Mets have pushed many existing season ticket holders to the cheapest, least desirable seats, if not out of the stadium entirely. There is plenty of room for a Jersey team, especially one that could play the "value" proposition.

thats an awesome point

the yankees and mets cant claim a nj team would hurt their attendance if their both selling out their own ballparks already

and with both new ballparks having fewer seats they will sell out faster

so that argument goes to the side of those who support the nj team

[PeteU]

LOL!!! Up here isn't no even close to being big enough to support a MLB team! The "Albany/Schenectady/ Troy" has a population of maybe 600,000. We are hoping to get an AA team again in Albany (there is an A team in troy) not a MLB team! Buffalo maybe.

Agreed. Albany has a metro area of 850,957, which is way too small to consider for major league ball.

Buffalo is plausible, if the city ever revives the idea to expand Pilot Field to major league capacity (as they did back in the 1991 expansion derby). But that idea has been pretty dormant for almost 20 years now.

When people talk relocation, there's the elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about: funding. What markets are going to fund for a new ballpark? As we stand right now, there is not one market without major league baseball that either has a funding plan approved or one ready in the wings. With the exception of DC's plan to build Nationals Park (which was not approved until after the annoucement to move the Expos had been made), the last example of a market who had a serious effort to put together a funding plan to lure a team was in 1997, when North Carolina wanted to move the Twins to Charlotte. Voters killed the plan at the polls.

Now, people can talk about all the potential in the world for New Jersey, but no one--no one--neither city or state government nor private funding has come forth with a plan to build a ballpark anywhere in the NYC metro area for a third team. And given NJ's current budget situation, the prospects of any ballpark plan with state funding is slim at the current moment. So until there's any sort of plan, all the idle talk about putting a team in New Jersey is just that, idle talk.

[Yoda]

The Jimmy Buff's

[PeteU]

I believe that once all the viable "virgin" markets are occupied, MLB needs to look again at the old markets that could sustain additional business. Our cities will continue to grow, and MLB needs to grow with them.

In NY metro, both of the existing teams are basically selling out their seasons. In addition, with the new parks, the Yanks and Mets have pushed many existing season ticket holders to the cheapest, least desirable seats, if not out of the stadium entirely. There is plenty of room for a Jersey team, especially one that could play the "value" proposition.

But right now, I don't forsee either expansion or relocation in the near future. Expansion's probably not going to happen for a decade or more, and when it does happen, I doubt Major League Baseball is going to be interested in putting a new team in a market that already has two teams. I see MLB much more interested in expanding into new, untapped markets, but that's only going to occur when those markets are confirmed to be large enough.

And relocation isn't much more likely unless things really go bad with either the Marlins or A's situation, which has not occurred yet. The Rays winning season has shown there is an interest for baseball in the Tampa Bay market, and with their first winning season and possibly first postseason playoff appearance, there's going to be a huge bump in the season ticket base. The Marlins? Good sized (if slightly flawed geographically) market, good TV ratings, and most importantly, all parts of the stadium funding plan have been improved. The only thing keeping the Fish from breaking ground at the Orange Bowl site right now is a lawsuit which will be determined within the nex month. Assuming the suit goes in the Marlins' favor, the Marlins are in good shape. The A's? There have been some bumps on the new stadium developments, but I don't things can be classified as reaching critical just yet.

Then you have a couple of teams who are slow at the gate, like the Pirates and Royals. But the Pirates have a new stadium (arguably the best in the league) and the Royals have put a lot of money into upgrading their ballpark.

You can say on the surface that New Jersey has enough people to--in theory--support a third team in the NYC metro area. Now I've already expressed some reservation about the willingness of lifelong Yankees and Mets fans to switch allegiances, but putting that all aside, expansion is years away and probably not interested in a third NYC metro team, and right now I don't think any team situation is so critical that they are on the verge of moving.

And did I mention there's been absolutely no talk of funding for a NJ stadium? Because that's sort of a biggee. And that's first assuming either the Yankees or Mets are cool with the third team using their stadium as a temporary venue.

[Transic]

Good point about the funding issue. Since it has to be funded through private means, chances are that to recoup the cost means that tickets prices would not be cheap to come by, which is one of the reason many of us cite to support the idea of a 3rd NY-area team.

BTW, isn't the RR yards within the Hoboken boundary or are you referring to someplace else?

[DaBigMotor]

I'd love to see a poll of baseball fans in the NYC/NJ metro on this subject, with them indicating where they think that a new stadium/team should be located, if at all.

[Mario Mendoza...HOF Lock]

Good point about the funding issue. Since it has to be funded through private means, chances are that to recoup the cost means that tickets prices would not be cheap to come by, which is one of the reason many of us cite to support the idea of a 3rd NY-area team.

BTW, isn't the RR yards within the Hoboken boundary or are you referring to someplace else?

Directly across from lower Manhattan are the remnants of the Central Railroad Terminal

Some pics from last summer...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2342/1591099729_b616be59b3_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1436/1393550125_2ca420628a.jpg

This may be considered a landmark, and any effort to replace it with a ballpark would be met with opposition.

Back in the early-mid 70's, the land along the Jersey City waterfront was abandoned railroad tracks, slums and and a giant landfill/dump, and could have been had for a relative pittance. Until some savvy investors and public planners realized that this area actually had some merit, namely one of the greatest views in the world.

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/10/7/10-0661a.gif

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/10/7/10-0667a.gif

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/10/7/10-0679a.gif

I think a ballpark would have looked pretty good there in it's place:cap:

[mandrake]

Good point about the funding issue. Since it has to be funded through private means, chances are that to recoup the cost means that tickets prices would not be cheap to come by, which is one of the reason many of us cite to support the idea of a 3rd NY-area team.

BTW, isn't the RR yards within the Hoboken boundary or are you referring to someplace else?

The tracks I am talking about belonged to the Jersey Central RR. The terminal is sitting there as a white elephant in the middle of Liberty State Park. The trains stopped in 1967; it is a huge tract of land, near the Liberty Science Center and very close to both Ellis Island and the Staue of Liberty - which is actually in NJ territory. The Hobokon terminal, still active, is the Delaware Lackawanna Terminal. The Erie Railroad terminal was the biggest of them all, but it was knocked flat in the 60's and the trains were rerouted to Hoboken. It is where Newport Mall is standing. If you go in the PATH station at Pavonia, all of the columns still have an "E" engraved on them as a reminder of the Erie , which ran all the way to Chicago.

Of all the teams with attendance problems or Stadium issues, I would like to see the A's come east. (Sorry Dodger and Giants fans, I don't think that can happen). But there is always HOPE.

[efin98]

Directly across from lower Manhattan are the remnants of the Central Railroad Terminal

Some pics from last summer...

It's part of Liberty State Park and is landmarked...little chance of it ever being converted.

[Transic]

That's what I suspect is the case. If not for being within the park boundaries that terminal would've been torn down long ago. Besides, access would be another problem. Taking over the Newport Mall would be an ideal solution, but may not be financially feasible at the moment. At least that area has much better transportation options than Liberty State Park.

Not as ideal but maybe more feasible is that land along the intersection of Grand St. and Jersey Avenue, heading towards Marin Blvd. Last time I walked around there (this was five years ago) there doesn't seem to be anything of importance in the way. There's a light rail line cutting across the property. And it's within walking distance to the Grove St. station. A ballpark could fit there and take advantage of the line that's there.

[aqib]

Still, I don't see it a NJ team ever getting by the Yankees or Mets, I still question the notion that fans will drop their loyalties to existing teams like that, and I don't think most people (including myself) care to see another team in the NYC metro area.

There are a lot of NYers who aren't fans of either team, who would adopt the new team. Also, transplants would go see their team play the new team just as easily as they go to Shea or Yankee Stadium. Lastly if you put an NL team in Jersey, you don't take away from the Mets fan base but those people can adopt the new team without dropping the Yankees.

There are also many people (including myself) who don't care to see the one team thats in Florida now, so lets not let fan polls determine the outcome.

[metfan13]

There are a lot of NYers who aren't fans of either team, who would adopt the new team. Also, transplants would go see their team play the new team just as easily as they go to Shea or Yankee Stadium. Lastly if you put an NL team in Jersey, you don't take away from the Mets fan base but those people can adopt the new team without dropping the Yankees.

There are also many people (including myself) who don't care to see the one team thats in Florida now, so lets not let fan polls determine the outcome.

Kind of crazy to act like the Mets have no fan base in NJ. Yes maybe the Yanks is larger, but there are a LOT of Mets fans in NJ. And they're not switching to a new team any faster than Yankee fans.

The 3rd team in the NY area is a dream for those who would like to water down the NY market. Not going to happen. The Mets and Yanks would never let it happen.

[PeteU]

There are also many people (including myself) who don't care to see the one team thats in Florida now, so lets not let fan polls determine the outcome.

Math is your friend.

[aqib]

Math is your friend.

Sorry I meant SOUTH Florida. My coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

[Hoboken]

I would like to go to the new ballpark in New Jersey and have a cup of coffee while watching the game.

[aqib]

Kind of crazy to act like the Mets have no fan base in NJ. Yes maybe the Yanks is larger, but there are a LOT of Mets fans in NJ. And they're not switching to a new team any faster than Yankee fans.

The 3rd team in the NY area is a dream for those who would like to water down the NY market. Not going to happen. The Mets and Yanks would never let it happen.

There has been talk of a 3rd NY team for a long time, its not my invention or any on this forum. The A's owner mentioned that in an interview with the NY Sun. Cablevision has never replaced the Yankees in their lineup so you are talking about $50 million in TV money right off the bat for someone who puts the deal together. Also the NYC area is one of the few major metropolitan areas that is gaining population as people are moving to cheaper housing markets. Not saying its going to happen in the next 3-5 years but eventually I think there will be a third team there. Also, it would make sense to eventually have 4, 4 team divisions in each league as opposed to whats out there now.

[YanksRule]

The best area for a team I think would be in Secaucus.. A team could go there since it's off the turnpike and has NJ Transit from Penn Station and is a major hub for all other train lines, which would alleviate a lot of the traffic...

Btw another point that I don't think anyone brought up.. North Jersey is trying to get another independent league team along with the Newark Bears called the Bergen Cliff Hawks, preferably residing in the Meadowlands... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen_Cliff_Hawks

[mandrake]

I hate to be redundant...but...... they all laughed when the KC Scouts/Colorado Rockies said they were moving to NJ. Territory of Original six team and another team in the middle of historic 4 year cup run. The pundits laughed that a team kicked out of TWO cities was moving to a swamp. Well 3 cups later they have probably surpassed the team with the 4 yr Cup run in fan base. Devils had to pay Rangers, Isles and Flyers infringement $, plus ten yr payment to NYR's for "stealing" Meadowlnds where NYR's were moving to. They survived !

Face it, 10% or more of entire USA population is in greater NY/NJ metro area. We can support 3 NHL teams, and we can support 3 MLB teams.

JC NJ is the best site; the RR terminal is landmarked, but they can not find any use for the 'sheds'. Keep the terminal up as part of the complex.

MSG and Sportschannel really need a MLB team. They lost the Yanks and the Mets. That could be a one hundred million per year loss ! They could build a stadium for their team and have it paid for in 6 or 7 years. Or less if they fleece the public with higher rates.

I am only speculating on the location, but I am not speculating that Cablevision wants to buy an MLB team. I know they have ruined the NBA team and the NHL team is on a 50 yr rebuilding program; but the idiots who own cablevision are looking for an MLB team. They are pretty sneaky, as they were the driving force that stopped the Bloomberg/Johnson Jet Dome from happening. They have tons of cash (they are thinking of knocking down the Garden and moving it a couple of blocks; why??? because they can???)

Do not discount the Dolans. I don't like 'em one bit, but they are sneaky.

[DaBigMotor]

MSG and Sportschannel really need a MLB team. They lost the Yanks and the Mets. That could be a one hundred million per year loss ! They could build a stadium for their team and have it paid for in 6 or 7 years. Or less if they fleece the public with higher rates. .......Do not discount the Dolans. I don't like 'em one bit, but they are sneaky.So this means that they're going to "sneak" a team & a stadium into NY/NJ?? :confused:

[metfan13]

I hate to be redundant...but...... they all laughed when the KC Scouts/Colorado Rockies said they were moving to NJ. Territory of Original six team and another team in the middle of historic 4 year cup run. The pundits laughed that a team kicked out of TWO cities was moving to a swamp. Well 3 cups later they have probably surpassed the team with the 4 yr Cup run in fan base. Devils had to pay Rangers, Isles and Flyers infringement $, plus ten yr payment to NYR's for "stealing" Meadowlnds where NYR's were moving to. They survived !

Face it, 10% or more of entire USA population is in greater NY/NJ metro area. We can support 3 NHL teams, and we can support 3 MLB teams.

JC NJ is the best site; the RR terminal is landmarked, but they can not find any use for the 'sheds'. Keep the terminal up as part of the complex.

MSG and Sportschannel really need a MLB team. They lost the Yanks and the Mets. That could be a one hundred million per year loss ! They could build a stadium for their team and have it paid for in 6 or 7 years. Or less if they fleece the public with higher rates.

I am only speculating on the location, but I am not speculating that Cablevision wants to buy an MLB team. I know they have ruined the NBA team and the NHL team is on a 50 yr rebuilding program; but the idiots who own cablevision are looking for an MLB team. They are pretty sneaky, as they were the driving force that stopped the Bloomberg/Johnson Jet Dome from happening. They have tons of cash (they are thinking of knocking down the Garden and moving it a couple of blocks; why??? because they can???)

Do not discount the Dolans. I don't like 'em one bit, but they are sneaky.

And the NHL is MUCH different than MLB. The NHL struggles in various markets. They've got too many teams as is and fewer markets than MLB. And anyway have you been to a Devils-Rangers game in NJ? Sounds like a Rangers home game. The announcers even talked about it during the playoffs.

The Islanders? They don't even draw at their games. Hardly a good comparison to MLB.

[PeteU]

I'm sorry, the NYC metro area is not going to get a third team just because MSG and Sportschannel or Cablevision need a major league team.

And unless the New Jersey state legislature comes out with a huge sum of money (doubtful) or some excentric billionaire slaps a huge wad of money on the table, it ain't happening. And that's not even getting to the question of temporary venue or resistance from the Mets and Yankees.

[metfan13]

I'm sorry, the NYC metro area is not going to get a third team just because MSG and Sportschannel or Cablevision need a major league team.

And unless the New Jersey state legislature comes out with a huge sum of money (doubtful) or some excentric billionaire slaps a huge wad of money on the table, it ain't happening. And that's not even getting to the question of temporary venue or resistance from the Mets and Yankees.

Save this and get ready to post it on 5 more threads in teh next few months.

I've lived two places in my life, northern NJ and Charlotte, NC. Both keep getting brought up and neither is getting a team any time soon.

[mandrake]

Stadium: Tropicana Field, St. Petersburg, FL
Attendance: 15,896 (38.5% full)
Game Time: 3:05
Weather: indoors

Yesterday's game for Tampa vs the Angels. Possible playoff matchup;two best records in the AL.

Give me a break. This market should NOT have a team. Case closed.

[PeteU]

Save this and get ready to post it on 5 more threads in teh next few months.

I've lived two places in my life, northern NJ and Charlotte, NC. Both keep getting brought up and neither is getting a team any time soon.

Exactly.

When I see money on the table, I'll talk realistically. Until then, the only major league baseball teams in NJ or Charlotte or whatever other city/area of speculation is going to be fantasy baseball teams on people's computers.

[PeteU]

Stadium: Tropicana Field, St. Petersburg, FL
Attendance: 15,896 (38.5% full)
Game Time: 3:05
Weather: indoors

Yesterday's game for Tampa vs the Angels. Possible playoff matchup;two best records in the AL.

Give me a break. This market should NOT have a team. Case closed.

Ahem....excuse me....now perhaps you are not the most newsworthy person and you don't follow up on all things in the news, so I'm assuming you didn't hear about the strong Tropical Storm/potential Hurricane Fay brewing off of Florida's West Coast. Which in its "cone of death" projected path was included the Tampa-St. Petersburg metropolitian area. And that in such situations, people are instructed not to travel out and to prepare their homes for a potential hit.

Or, for the verbally impaired....

http://www.lompocrecord.com/content/articles/2008/08/19/ap/headlines/d92l5lm00.jpg

But you didn't know that, right? You were too busy scouting out locations for potential ballparks for Jersey City that are going to magically sprout up without any question of money.

Nice job, Matlock.

And it's Tampa Bay.

[mandrake]

Ok, let's give them a mulligan. I expect at least 70,000 for the next two games. After all, it is the battle for best in the AL.

If this was Yankee Stadium and a tropical storm was coming,( and yes we get them once in a while too), I am sure the joint would have been packed for the Angels. Look at Tampa (Bay) record setting gates:

2000 avg 18,008
2001 avg 16,026
2002 avg 13,158
2003 avg 13,070
2004 avg 16,169
2005 avg 14,052
2006 avg 16,901
2007 avg 17,148 Only MLB with worse numbers in 2007 were the Marlins.


Bring them to NJ and we see ten sell outs vs the Yankees and three more vs the Mets. That is approx 50% of season in Tampa (Bay).

[metfan13]

Ok, let's give them a mulligan. I expect at least 70,000 for the next two games. After all, it is the battle for best in the AL.

If this was Yankee Stadium and a tropical storm was coming,( and yes we get them once in a while too), I am sure the joint would have been packed for the Angels. Look at Tampa (Bay) record setting gates:

2000 avg 18,008
2001 avg 16,026
2002 avg 13,158
2003 avg 13,070
2004 avg 16,169
2005 avg 14,052
2006 avg 16,901
2007 avg 17,148 Only MLB with worse numbers in 2007 were the Marlins.


Bring them to NJ and we see ten sell outs vs the Yankees and three more vs the Mets. That is approx 50% of season in Tampa (Bay).

Let's bring teams to Brooklyn, Staten Island, Northern NJ, Westchester, AND Trenton. The NY metro area is HUGE. hell, some of those teams might still draw more than Tampa Bay. Doesn't mean they should, or will.

[aqib]

Exactly.

When I see money on the table, I'll talk realistically. Until then, the only major league baseball teams in NJ or Charlotte or whatever other city/area of speculation is going to be fantasy baseball teams on people's computers.

Thats not any less a fantasy than the Florida Marlins developing a sustainable fan base...

[metfan13]

Thats not any less a fantasy than the Florida Marlins developing a sustainable fan base...

Yeah I guess that's tough to do when you sell off the team every time it's any good.

[GordonGecko]

The NYC market can obviously support a 3rd and even a 4th Major League franchise. The Marlins should move to Brooklyn or Nassau County, and the Tampa Bay Rays should move to one of the big New Jersey counties (hudson, essex, union).

[PeteU]

Ok, let's give them a mulligan. I expect at least 70,000 for the next two games. After all, it is the battle for best in the AL.

I'll notify Bud Selig immediately as to what you "expect", and I'll "expect" he'll act accordingly. If they fail to meet the threshold, I'm sure the Rays will be on their way to NY/NJ. I think they should play in a 50,000 seat stadium built on a barge in the middle of the Hudson River--it will have a great view of Manhattan and you can get there via water taxi and it will be so righteously cool, man! It will be exclusively built by Habitat for Humanity volunteers and should be ready by next Wednesday! :sigh:



If this was Yankee Stadium and a tropical storm was coming,( and yes we get them once in a while too), I am sure the joint would have been packed for the Angels. Look at Tampa (Bay) record setting gates:

2000 avg 18,008
2001 avg 16,026
2002 avg 13,158
2003 avg 13,070
2004 avg 16,169
2005 avg 14,052
2006 avg 16,901
2007 avg 17,148 Only MLB with worse numbers in 2007 were the Marlins.


What wise insight you bring. You know, until now I had never seen those numbers, and I must say I totally see things your way now. I guess the fact that during those years those teams were god-awful and fans had absolutely no hope of seeing winning baseball had absolutely zilch impact on that.

Tropical storms and Yankee Stadium? Phhhbt. Who needs tropical storms? How about a simple make up game that will bring out a whopping 8,848 to the ballpark? In 2003.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2003/09/09/yankees_make_noise_before_sparse_crowd/

I'm going to call Bud Selig right now and demand the Yankees pull out the Mayflower moving vans right now! See, I can play too! Isn't it fun?


Bring them to NJ and we see ten sell outs vs the Yankees and three more vs the Mets. That is approx 50% of season in Tampa (Bay).

The saddest thing is that you are so completely uniformed about the very noticeable rise in attendance at Rays games this year and about the numerous sellouts at the Trop this year. Or just intentionally ignorant, I'm not sure which one fits the bill.

Now, in the words of the great Walter Sobchak, shut the eff up, Donny.

[J.R.]

Makeup games with quick turnarounds have embarrassed several clubs in recent years, among them attendance stalwarts like the Cubs (2000) and Yanks (2003) and gate laggards like the White Sox (1997) and Marlins (2007.)

I don't blame Rays fans for the hurricane-influenced crowd last night. However, it is disappointing that more tickets weren't sold well in advance of this particular storm. This series has been circled in red by baseball fans for months as a possible playoff preview, and should have gotten more buzz down there than a 15,xxx presale indicates.

[aqib]

Yeah I guess that's tough to do when you sell off the team every time it's any good.

They didn't sell off the team after the 03 title but fans didn't come out anyway. Any other city where the team wins a WS (much less two) the city winds up playing ball with the team

[PeteU]

Thats not any less a fantasy than the Florida Marlins developing a sustainable fan base...

Say what you will, but the Marlins already have an approved stadium funding package in place. You can't say that for any other of these cited markets.

[PeteU]

The NYC market can obviously support a 3rd and even a 4th Major League franchise. The Marlins should move to Brooklyn or Nassau County, and the Tampa Bay Rays should move to one of the big New Jersey counties (hudson, essex, union).

New Jersey--it's got what Major League Baseball craves!

[metfan13]

They didn't sell off the team after the 03 title but fans didn't come out anyway. Any other city where the team wins a WS (much less two) the city winds up playing ball with the team

Oh. Where did Miguel Cabrera bat last night?

They screwed their fanbase after the first win. Then let the vets leave after the second win. Pudge?

They play in an ill-designed for baseball football stadium.

What exactly is in it for their fans?

[aqib]

Oh. Where did Miguel Cabrera bat last night?

They screwed their fanbase after the first win. Then let the vets leave after the second win. Pudge?

They play in an ill-designed for baseball football stadium.

What exactly is in it for their fans?

Pudge was a one-year rental from the day he signed and everyone knew it. Teams win WS titles with rentals all the time. So teams fans are expected to walk every time a vet leaves, especially a guy who signed for a year?

When you are consistently #30 in the league in attendance your fan base sucks.

[tomzpc]

The Eggplants. Deep deep purple unis.

[six4three]

Pudge was a one-year rental from the day he signed and everyone knew it. Teams win WS titles with rentals all the time. So teams fans are expected to walk every time a vet leaves, especially a guy who signed for a year?

The Brewers have no hope of signing Sabathia. Or Sheets. Zero. Not even worth talking about.

Yet the Milwaukee fans love them. They love what they bring. They love winning. They don't have any illusions about it. When they both go to the Yankees, fans in Milwaukee aren't going to abandon the team.

[metfan13]

Look at marlins attendance when they were formed. Look how they drew when they first won. Then they were stabbed in the back. So they don't feel as though they need to fully support that team in their football stadium.

As for the Brewers, the combination of contending and a nice new park are working. Let them trade away the better players (or lose them all to FA) and drop to 6th and see how it goes.

[PeteU]

Look at marlins attendance when they were formed. Look how they drew when they first won. Then they were stabbed in the back. So they don't feel as though they need to fully support that team in their football stadium.



Forget it. No matter how much you explain to him the entire history of the Marlins franchise and the special circumstances behind that team, aqib's not going to look outside of his narrow line of thinking.

[aqib]

Forget it. No matter how much you explain to him the entire history of the Marlins franchise and the special circumstances behind that team, aqib's not going to look outside of his narrow line of thinking.

Yeah no matter how many times you repeat the exact same excuses I'm not going to buy them. You were already dropping off in attendance BEFORE the 97 season. In 96 (year 4 of the franchise) when the team was 80-82, which is pretty good for a 4th year team the team was already 10th in the NL in attendance averaging 21.5K per game. In 04 after the second world series title the team was 14th in the NL averaging 21.3K. This is two owners after Huizenga, its all because they lost Pudge Rodriguez?

Every team outside of Boston, NY, and LA has had issues over the years with its parks, its owners, players coming and going, etc. Only the Marlins have been consistently at the bottom of attendance despite its on-field success. OK so Huizenga was a slimeball, what was wrong with Henry? Loria has been spending to revenue.

South Florida just isn't a great sports market. It may have the population and economy but it isn't showing up at the gate. The Panthers consistently only fill their arena to 80% in good years, the Dolphins even in good years have difficulty selling out, etc.

[metfan13]

Yeah no matter how many times you repeat the exact same excuses I'm not going to buy them. You were already dropping off in attendance BEFORE the 97 season. In 96 (year 4 of the franchise) when the team was 80-82, which is pretty good for a 4th year team the team was already 10th in the NL in attendance averaging 21.5K per game. In 04 after the second world series title the team was 14th in the NL averaging 21.3K. This is two owners after Huizenga, its all because they lost Pudge Rodriguez?

Every team outside of Boston, NY, and LA has had issues over the years with its parks, its owners, players coming and going, etc. Only the Marlins have been consistently at the bottom of attendance despite its on-field success. OK so Huizenga was a slimeball, what was wrong with Henry? Loria has been spending to revenue.

South Florida just isn't a great sports market. It may have the population and economy but it isn't showing up at the gate. The Panthers consistently only fill their arena to 80% in good years, the Dolphins even in good years have difficulty selling out, etc.


How many others had the franchise sabotaged by the owner the winter after a World Series win?

[GordonGecko]

...South Florida just isn't a great sports market. It may have the population and economy but it isn't showing up at the gate. The Panthers consistently only fill their arena to 80% in good years, the Dolphins even in good years have difficulty selling out, etc.

Can you blame them? :)

http://www.miami-hotels-fl.us/miami_photos/miami_beach_babes.jpg

[PeteU]

Yeah no matter how many times you repeat the exact same excuses I'm not going to buy them. You were already dropping off in attendance BEFORE the 97 season. In 96 (year 4 of the franchise) when the team was 80-82, which is pretty good for a 4th year team the team was already 10th in the NL in attendance averaging 21.5K per game. In 04 after the second world series title the team was 14th in the NL averaging 21.3K. This is two owners after Huizenga, its all because they lost Pudge Rodriguez?

Every team outside of Boston, NY, and LA has had issues over the years with its parks, its owners, players coming and going, etc. Only the Marlins have been consistently at the bottom of attendance despite its on-field success. OK so Huizenga was a slimeball, what was wrong with Henry? Loria has been spending to revenue.

South Florida just isn't a great sports market. It may have the population and economy but it isn't showing up at the gate. The Panthers consistently only fill their arena to 80% in good years, the Dolphins even in good years have difficulty selling out, etc.

The problem is, you look at things at the very surface but you don't really understand the business of baseball and what a team has to do to endear itself to its market. And despite having two championships and quite an impressive list of players who have suited up into uniform at one point or another, the ownership (take your pick of the three owners) has failed to realize that fans want long term relationships with both their players and their franchise. Fire sales and threats of relocation are not the way to achieve this.

Now you poo-poo this idea by claiming that almost every team has had these fire sales. That's questionable in and of itself. And the fact is the post 1994 fire sale killed the Montreal Expos, and then who comes along to buy the Marlins but the very last owner of the Expos--you ever wonder why attendance was so bad in 2002? But even assuming there is truth to that statement, think about things. The Marlins have been around for 15 years. For the past 10 years, the Marlins have been mired in unstable ownership and questions about their long term future in South Florida due to the difficulties of getting a new ballpark financed. That means for 2/3rd of the team's history, the Marlins have been in an incredibly volitile, questionable situation. Give me one other team that has had such a percentage of their team history in flux.

Post 1997 was horrible, we all can agree. You claim that the situation wasn't that bad post 2003, and it is true that 2004 and 2005 had winning teams. However, if you were aware of all the talk post 2003 in the media, everything was about how the Marlins would inevitably trade away or let their key players leave once their contracts came up or they became arbitration eligible. Now, a history lesson:

Lost after 2003: Ivan Rodriguez, Ugeth Urbina, Derrick Lee, Juan Encarnacion
Lost during and after 2004: Brad Penny, Carl Pavano (laugh Yankee fans all you want, but he was a key player in 2003)
Lost during and after 2005: AJ Burnett, Jeff Conine, Alex Gonzalez, Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Luis Castillo, Juan Pierre (Plus Carlos Delgado, gone after only one year)

By 2006, only two starting players from the 2003 championship season remained, Miguel Cabrerra and Dontrelle Willis. After those two players remained into 2007, there was a slight increase in attendance. However, once the 2007 off season hit, those two were gone. All that was left of 2003 was memories. Other than the 1997 Marlins, I'm hard pressed to find a championship team wiped out that quickly in that amount of time.

Here's the tragic thing: Between the 1997 and the 2003 teams combined, there are a number of potential future Hall of Famers on that squad. However, do you think any of them will go into the Hall with a Marlins hat on? The only player in Marlins history who has been associated primarily with the Marlins has been Jeff Conine, and as much as I like him, he's probably not Hall quality. Had more stable ownership kept any number of those players for a significant amount of time, there is no doubt in my mind that attendance would be significantly better, no doubt. Even in Dolphin Stadium. Fans would have a legacy of players who engrained themselves in the community.

Again, it's all a matter of math. Fire sales + threats of relocation = lower attendance. It's not because South Florida is supposedly a horrible sports market, because it's not. Contrary to your position, the Dolphins have not had problems selling out their games in recent history. And the Panthers are not any worse off than most other teams in the NHL in terms of attendance--selling out an arena in the NHL is not a given for most markets.

I think you have a very base knowledge of the facts and try to spin that into having a deep understanding of the situation, but the fact is it is one of the most complex "disfunctional" franchise situations in all of major league history. One that I do not think is insurmountable by any means, nor one that serves as an indictment of the fans in the market. But quite a complex one nonetheless.

[TJH1923]

Now you poo-poo this idea by claiming that almost every team has had these fire sales. That's questionable in and of itself. And the fact is the post 1994 fire sale killed the Montreal Expos, and then who comes along to buy the Marlins but the very last owner of the Expos--you ever wonder why attendance was so bad in 2002? But even assuming there is truth to that statement, think about things. The Marlins have been around for 15 years. For the past 10 years, the Marlins have been mired in unstable ownership and questions about their long term future in South Florida due to the difficulties of getting a new ballpark financed. That means for 2/3rd of the team's history, the Marlins have been in an incredibly volitile, questionable situation. Give me one other team that has had such a percentage of their team history in flux.

Consider the deal in which MLB allowed John Henry, owner of the Marlins, to purchase the Red Sox and allowed Jeff Loria, owner of the Expos, to slide into ownership of the Marlins while MLB took over the operation of the Expos until they could move them (of course with a stadium deal in place in Washington that came very close to falling through at the last minute). Frank McCourt was a bidder for the Red Sox which he eventually lost out to John Henry. Miraculously, Frank McCourt won the bidding process to buy the Dodgers.

So then, MLB is a big part of the problem for this dysfunctional franchise because they allowed it to happen. The only reason the Marlins are still in Florida is because of the prosperity MLB as a whole is experiencing.

[mandrake]

[QUOTE=PeteU;1287590]
The saddest thing is that you are so completely uniformed about the very noticeable rise in attendance at Rays games this year and about the numerous sellouts at the Trop this year. Or just intentionally ignorant, I'm not sure which one fits the bill.
QUOTE]

Well, I'm convinced that Tampa Bay/St Petersburg etc is now officially a hotbed of baseball. A fantastic series between the Rays and Angels drew an incredible crowd of approx 52,000. Well, that was tickets SOLD for a three game series to see who has the best record in the league. I was told there was a tropical storm that held down the gate on Monday, but that storm must have been a doozy since it held down ticket sales for the next two days. And it was indoors ! The place must have looked like the Superdome during Katrina. The Tampa Bay area has a good team playing its head off and the fans come dressed as empty seats.

MLB needs to relocate both Florida teams, or fold them as they talked about a few years ago. I prefer bringing one of the teams to NJ. The other team should go to Maryland. Then Yankee fans can drive to Maryland and take over just as they now do in Camden Yards.

[Transic]

Nah. I prefer an expansion team over relocation. New team. New history. No controversy about team records from the start.

I'd give the Florida teams some more time to sort out their issues. They would continue to be low-revenue teams for the foreseeable future, anyway.

[Captain Cold Nose]

[QUOTE=PeteU;1287590]
The saddest thing is that you are so completely uniformed about the very noticeable rise in attendance at Rays games this year and about the numerous sellouts at the Trop this year. Or just intentionally ignorant, I'm not sure which one fits the bill.
QUOTE]

Well, I'm convinced that Tampa Bay/St Petersburg etc is now officially a hotbed of baseball. A fantastic series between the Rays and Angels drew an incredible crowd of approx 52,000. Well, that was tickets SOLD for a three game series to see who has the best record in the league. I was told there was a tropical storm that held down the gate on Monday, but that storm must have been a doozy since it held down ticket sales for the next two days. And it was indoors ! The place must have looked like the Superdome during Katrina. The Tampa Bay area has a good team playing its head off and the fans come dressed as empty seats.

MLB needs to relocate both Florida teams, or fold them as they talked about a few years ago. I prefer bringing one of the teams to NJ. The other team should go to Maryland. Then Yankee fans can drive to Maryland and take over just as they now do in Camden Yards.

The storm is still going on, btw. But, hey, it's not a hurricane yet, so what's the deal? Nobody has told me it was a hurricane yet, at least. Feh.

[PeteU]

Well, I'm convinced that Tampa Bay/St Petersburg etc is now officially a hotbed of baseball. A fantastic series between the Rays and Angels drew an incredible crowd of approx 52,000. Well, that was tickets SOLD for a three game series to see who has the best record in the league. I was told there was a tropical storm that held down the gate on Monday, but that storm must have been a doozy since it held down ticket sales for the next two days. And it was indoors ! The place must have looked like the Superdome during Katrina. The Tampa Bay area has a good team playing its head off and the fans come dressed as empty seats.

MLB needs to relocate both Florida teams, or fold them as they talked about a few years ago. I prefer bringing one of the teams to NJ. The other team should go to Maryland. Then Yankee fans can drive to Maryland and take over just as they now do in Camden Yards.

Since June 30th, in 22 home games (including the Angels series, where there were questions whether the first two games would be played or not), the Rays have averaged 23,955.

That figure includes 14 games with attendance over 20,000, 7 games with attendance over 30,000, only 1 game with attendance under 15,000 and 0 games with attendance under 10,000.

I'm wondering if the Rays even had 14 games over 20,000 for all of 2007, including games against the Red Sox, Yankees and opening day.

Considering past years attendance and what the Rays had previously drawn, that's pretty darn good if you ask me.

Also considering that the Rays probably have only 10,000 or so season tickets (with probably only 7,000-8,000 full game plans), the Rays are averaging roughly 14,000 walkups and single game tickets per game. Pretty impressive.

Next year, after the Rays have had their first winning season in franchise history--and quite possibly their first postseason appearance in franchise history--I think it's realistic to expect season tickets to rise at least 50%, perhaps even double if the Rays make it to the World Series.

Anyone who does not see this as a good thing doesn't understand the business of baseball. The Rays are a case study in transitioning from a team with a small base of core fans and very few casual fans, to a team with a larger core base and potentially a good amount of casual fans. Contrary to what you might think, that transition does not occur overnight. The sugar plum fairy does not waive her magic wand and daily sellout crowds magically appear overnight.

What you look for is a rise in attendance, and the Rays have clearly shown that. The Rays have shown themselves to be a healthy franchise in that respect. The team is winning, and the fans seem to have confidence in the ownership.

I know apparently all you know about baseball is through the Yankees, but to be frank, it's unrealistic to even try to compare the Rays to the Yankees at this point. Aside from the fact that New York is a much larger metro area than Tampa Bay, the Yankees have been around for 105 years. They have 26 World Championships and 39 AL Pennants. They have a history full of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle and Jackson on their rosters. Being a native Marylander with my primary allegiance to the Orioles, I personally can't stand the Yankees, but I'm not going to lie and say they don't have an unparalleled legacy in baseball history. They are the epitome of an established franchise, and when you have an established franchise, you have an established fanbase.

The Rays have been around for 10 years. Until sometime probably in the next week to week and a half, they have never had a winning season in their existance. Prior to the players on this years squad, the most notable players to have played in a (Devil) Rays uniform have been Wade Boggs in the twilight of his career, a washed up Fred McGriff, and a roided up Jose Canseco. So anyone who claims that the Rays need to be held up to the same standard as the Yankees in terms of legacy is a fool, if you ask me.

Now, about that other team in the Maryland area you talked about---there's no doubt that the fighting Hunter Green and Sienna Brown of the Towson Terribly Terrific Terrors will draw quite a crowd. But with Michael Phelps performing daily swimming exhibitions beyond the left field fence, chances are Yankees fans will be left out in the cold when it comes to buying tickets. :)

[Power Wally]

To me , this thread has gone off subject by discussing the viability of baseball in Florida, as opposed to the viability of more baseball around NYC.

[Captain Cold Nose]

To me , this thread has gone off subject by discussing the viability of baseball in Florida, as opposed to the viability of more baseball around NYC.

True, however it has been mentioned how the Florida teams would seem to be the logical choices to make the move, so it is topical to the thread.

I'd like to see more than just blind condemnation of the Florida markets in general before suggesting such a move should be made. A little more facts and a little less opinion, if you will.

[mandrake]

True, however it has been mentioned how the Florida teams would seem to be the logical choices to make the move, so it is topical to the thread.

I'd like to see more than just blind condemnation of the Florida markets in general before suggesting such a move should be made. A little more facts and a little less opinion, if you will.

Well, I believe I am using facts. This season, the Rays are averaging about 21,000 and the Marlins around 17,000. In 2008, these just won't cut it. There was a time when these numbers would have led their leagues, but those days are gone. When the Angels come in for a huge 3 game series and possible playoff seedings are on the line (just say Chisox and Twins get in, Rays and Angels have to play them). It is a disgrace to draw , or really just sell 52,000 tickets. Neither Florida team is bad; in fact the Rays are having a miracle season, and the Marlins are still in the hunt. Rays fans in particluar should be coming out of the woodwork to see this very exciting team.

Normally, teams that 'lag' at the box office have huge spikes when they are suddenly having a great season. For example: Look at Chisox attendance and they usually spike when they come out of nowhere and then attendance fallsl back (1967,1977, 1983 etc). This is not unusual; what is unusual is there has been such a small improvement for the Rays (4,000 or so) for a team headed for 100 wins.

This is not a one year thing. We are looking at a decade of poor gates. MLB owners have commented about this at winter meetings. They speak off the record, etc as MLB usually like to keep the dirty laundry in house. That's probably the way it should be too.

Put the Rays in NJ this season and they are looking at 3 million. Put the Marlins up in Portland and I am sure they will do much better than in Miami. Or, if it makes better since, switch this and let Portland develop a rivalry with Seattle.

The Marlins have won 2 WS, which is incredible. I know of the sell offs, but if you went to nearly any MLB club and told fans , "look, we will win a WS, sell off the players, and win another WS in six years, so bear with us"..I think we would jump at it. Ask fans of the Giants, Indians,Phillies, Pirates,etc . What if you made that offer to Red Sox, White Sox, and even Cubs fans a few years ago (like way back in 2003) ??? They would have sold their souls for 2 WS titles!

The Florida experiment did not work. MLB tried, but it didn't work.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Well, I believe I am using facts. This season, the Rays are averaging about 21,000 and the Marlins around 17,000. In 2008, these just won't cut it. There was a time when these numbers would have led their leagues, but those days are gone. When the Angels come in for a huge 3 game series and possible playoff seedings are on the line (just say Chisox and Twins get in, Rays and Angels have to play them). It is a disgrace to draw , or really just sell 52,000 tickets. Neither Florida team is bad; in fact the Rays are having a miracle season, and the Marlins are still in the hunt. Rays fans in particluar should be coming out of the woodwork to see this very exciting team.

Normally, teams that 'lag' at the box office have huge spikes when they are suddenly having a great season. For example: Look at Chisox attendance and they usually spike when they come out of nowhere and then attendance fallsl back (1967,1977, 1983 etc). This is not unusual; what is unusual is there has been such a small improvement for the Rays (4,000 or so) for a team headed for 100 wins.

This is not a one year thing. We are looking at a decade of poor gates. MLB owners have commented about this at winter meetings. They speak off the record, etc as MLB usually like to keep the dirty laundry in house. That's probably the way it should be too.

Put the Rays in NJ this season and they are looking at 3 million. Put the Marlins up in Portland and I am sure they will do much better than in Miami. Or, if it makes better since, switch this and let Portland develop a rivalry with Seattle.

The Marlins have won 2 WS, which is incredible. I know of the sell offs, but if you went to nearly any MLB club and told fans , "look, we will win a WS, sell off the players, and win another WS in six years, so bear with us"..I think we would jump at it. Ask fans of the Giants, Indians,Phillies, Pirates,etc . What if you made that offer to Red Sox, White Sox, and even Cubs fans a few years ago (like way back in 2003) ??? They would have sold their souls for 2 WS titles!

The Florida experiment did not work. MLB tried, but it didn't work.


You do understand there is practically a hurricane going on right now. People are not going to rush out of their homes at times like that, despite you saying it is disgraceful not to.

No matter how many people you claim would see games in New Jersey, not a darned thing is owed to the area or anyone in it.

It's not for you to declare what has or hasn't worked. It won't work in 2008? I've read where game attendance isn't even as necessary as it used to be.

[metfan13]

Well, I believe I am using facts. This season, the Rays are averaging about 21,000 and the Marlins around 17,000. In 2008, these just won't cut it. There was a time when these numbers would have led their leagues, but those days are gone. When the Angels come in for a huge 3 game series and possible playoff seedings are on the line (just say Chisox and Twins get in, Rays and Angels have to play them). It is a disgrace to draw , or really just sell 52,000 tickets. Neither Florida team is bad; in fact the Rays are having a miracle season, and the Marlins are still in the hunt. Rays fans in particluar should be coming out of the woodwork to see this very exciting team.

Normally, teams that 'lag' at the box office have huge spikes when they are suddenly having a great season. For example: Look at Chisox attendance and they usually spike when they come out of nowhere and then attendance fallsl back (1967,1977, 1983 etc). This is not unusual; what is unusual is there has been such a small improvement for the Rays (4,000 or so) for a team headed for 100 wins.

This is not a one year thing. We are looking at a decade of poor gates. MLB owners have commented about this at winter meetings. They speak off the record, etc as MLB usually like to keep the dirty laundry in house. That's probably the way it should be too.

Put the Rays in NJ this season and they are looking at 3 million. Put the Marlins up in Portland and I am sure they will do much better than in Miami. Or, if it makes better since, switch this and let Portland develop a rivalry with Seattle.

The Marlins have won 2 WS, which is incredible. I know of the sell offs, but if you went to nearly any MLB club and told fans , "look, we will win a WS, sell off the players, and win another WS in six years, so bear with us"..I think we would jump at it. Ask fans of the Giants, Indians,Phillies, Pirates,etc . What if you made that offer to Red Sox, White Sox, and even Cubs fans a few years ago (like way back in 2003) ??? They would have sold their souls for 2 WS titles!

The Florida experiment did not work. MLB tried, but it didn't work.

The Marlins situation has been discussed endlessly. The Rays are having their first good season. Their attendance HAS gone up. But you keep harping on a series played with the threat of a hurricane.

And for the millionth time the Mets and Yanks aren't allowing a third team in their market.

[GordonGecko]

There would be no problem with Jersey or Long Island getting a MLB team. Both these locations are in the New York Metropolitan area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Ar eas). If you were to add two teams to the NY Metro area for a total of 4, you'd still have the same number of fans per team as in Chicago with the Cubs and White Sox


2007 Top 5 Metrolpolitan Regions in Population with MLB teams:

New York, 18.8M, 2 teams, 1 per 9.4M people
Los Angeles, 12.9M, 2 teams, 1 per 6.4M people
Chicago, 9.5M, 2 teams, 1 per 4.8M people
Dallas, 6.1M for 1 team
Philladelphia, 5.8M for 1 team


Some of the bottom areas:

Milwaukee, 1.5M for 1 team
Kansas City, 2.0M for 1 team
Cincinnati, 2.1M for 1 team
Cleveland, 2.1M for 1 team
Pittsburgh, 2.3M for 1 team

[PeteU]

Well, I believe I am using facts. This season, the Rays are averaging about 21,000 and the Marlins around 17,000. In 2008, these just won't cut it. There was a time when these numbers would have led their leagues, but those days are gone. When the Angels come in for a huge 3 game series and possible playoff seedings are on the line (just say Chisox and Twins get in, Rays and Angels have to play them). It is a disgrace to draw , or really just sell 52,000 tickets. Neither Florida team is bad; in fact the Rays are having a miracle season, and the Marlins are still in the hunt. Rays fans in particluar should be coming out of the woodwork to see this very exciting team.

Normally, teams that 'lag' at the box office have huge spikes when they are suddenly having a great season. For example: Look at Chisox attendance and they usually spike when they come out of nowhere and then attendance fallsl back (1967,1977, 1983 etc). This is not unusual; what is unusual is there has been such a small improvement for the Rays (4,000 or so) for a team headed for 100 wins.

Your "facts" are raw numbers without any knowledge behind those numbers. The true facts are that the Rays are in an unprecedented situation where they are the first good team after 10 years of horrible teams. There was never a chance to sufficiently grow much of a fanbase during that time after the first honeymoon year. So what you have is the area finally realizing there is a major league baseball team in the area, and the team slowly but surely growing at the gates as the season progresses. Things don't happen over night in these situation, contrary to what you think.

You cite the White Sox, and looking over the numbers I'm not really seeing your point (a jump of an average of 20 fans in terms of average attendance in 1967?). That aside, the White Sox had been around for decades prior to those years you mentioned. The much better analogy is the Seattle Mariners, who were downright horrible at the gates their first 13 years of existance (and didn't even have a honeymoon season in 1977), lukewarm at the gates for the next 5 years, and didn't get their first year where average attendance was over 30,000 until 1996, a year after their first playoff appearance? Why? Because the Mariners were horrible for their first 13 years.

This is not a one year thing. We are looking at a decade of poor gates. MLB owners have commented about this at winter meetings. They speak off the record, etc as MLB usually like to keep the dirty laundry in house. That's probably the way it should be too.

Whatever you claim MLB owners say off the record means jack. Hearsay off the record conversations don't mean anything. I hate to break it to you like that, but I don't think Rays fans have to be worried about what anyone supposedly said off the record. If it isn't on the record, it doesn't matter.

Put the Rays in NJ this season and they are looking at 3 million. Put the Marlins up in Portland and I am sure they will do much better than in Miami. Or, if it makes better since, switch this and let Portland develop a rivalry with Seattle.

New Jersey isn't going to happen. I don't care if you think it would work, it's not going to happen due to numerous factors, and to spend so much time speculating on something that has such a little chance of occurring is frankly a waste of time.

And unless Portland ponies up money for a new stadium (which there was little effort done by Portland in that department even when the Expos were looking to move), Portland's not going to happen, either.

The Marlins have won 2 WS, which is incredible. I know of the sell offs, but if you went to nearly any MLB club and told fans , "..I think we would jump at it. Ask fans of the Giants, Indians,Phillies, Pirates,etc . What if you made that offer to Red Sox, White Sox, and even Cubs fans a few years ago (like way back in 2003) ??? They would have sold their souls for 2 WS titles!

The Florida experiment did not work. MLB tried, but it didn't work.

Yes, I definitely remember Wayne Huzienga telling Marlins fans in 1997, "Look, we will win a WS, sell off the players, and win another WS in six years, so bear with us." He absolutely said that very thing. He also told me the winning lotto numbers and the names of stocks that would double in value of the course of a year. :rolleyes:

Here is the current situation in a nutshell.

Rays attendance is rising notably and will likely continue to rise through the end of the season as the Rays move closer to clinching a postseason spot, and the season ticket base for next year will likely grow significantly. For a good historical analogy, you need not look any further to the football team across Tampa Bay.

The Marlins, City of Miami, and Miami-Dade County have agreed on a stadium finanicing proposal. Barring a ruling against the team in the Norman Braman case (which legal experts have said is unlikely), construction on the new stadium should begin by the end of the year. The team is going to be on a long term lease at the new ballpark from that point on, meaning any breach of the lease is going to be quite costly and probably not too worth it.

The Rays and Marlins are not going anywhere in the near future. I'm sorry you might not like it, but too bad, so sad. My suggestion is just to go root for your Yankees and let the business of other teams sort themselves out on your own. Because what you've argued so far really isn't going to change things, I can tell you that.

[PeteU]

To avoid being too repetitive, I will pose my response to the following pictorally.

There would be no problem with Jersey or Long Island getting a MLB team.


http://www.wstm.com/uploadedImages/wstm/Sports/Stories/Yankees.jpg

http://fantasybaseballnonsense.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/ny-mets-3d-logo.jpg

[GordonGecko]

To avoid being too repetitive, I will pose my response to the following pictorally.

There's no need to be sarcastic, we all know NYC has two teams. The point is Chicago has two teams also, but with half the population. That shows you can fit two more viable teams here, and certainly 1 more would be successful. NYC used to have the Yankees, Giants, and Dodgers, before the last two bolted for a better deal. New Jersey is a logical possibility for the NY area's 3rd team

[PeteU]

There's no need to be sarcastic, we all know NYC has two teams. The point is Chicago has two teams also, but with half the population. That shows you can fit two more viable teams here, and certainly 1 more would be successful. NYC used to have the Yankees, Giants, and Dodgers, before the last two bolted for a better deal. New Jersey is a logical possibility for the NY area's 3rd team

Peter Angelos vehimently objected to a team in Washington, DC for years and would have continued to object if not for MLB finally giving him a specially tailored television rights agreement giving him the lions share of the television market.

In that case, we're talking about two cities 40 miles apart with very distinct identities from each other. In New York's case, we're talking about putting a team in the city's own suburbs right across the Hudson River. And given that the Yankees already have YES, the Yankees aren't going to be bought off by any type of television sharing arrangement.

The Yankees and Mets will not go quietly in this matter. And the anti-trust exemption still being the law of the land, the third team isn't going to have much from which to bargain.

[aqib]

Peter Angelos vehimently objected to a team in Washington, DC for years and would have continued to object if not for MLB finally giving him a specially tailored television rights agreement giving him the lions share of the television market.

In that case, we're talking about two cities 40 miles apart with very distinct identities from each other. In New York's case, we're talking about putting a team in the city's own suburbs right across the Hudson River. And given that the Yankees already have YES, the Yankees aren't going to be bought off by any type of television sharing arrangement.

The Yankees and Mets will not go quietly in this matter. And the anti-trust exemption still being the law of the land, the third team isn't going to have much from which to bargain.

There is the luxary tax which is almost entirely directed at the Yankees, that could be used as a bargaining chip. No one is saying this will happen next week or even in the next 5 years. Just at some point in the future.

[PeteU]

There is the luxary tax which is almost entirely directed at the Yankees, that could be used as a bargaining chip. No one is saying this will happen next week or even in the next 5 years. Just at some point in the future.

Every middle and small market team will veto any such proposal, I'll put good money on it. And probably the Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs Red Sox and White Sox as well, seeing that they wouldn't be getting the same sweet deal.

[Power Wally]

There's no need to be sarcastic, we all know NYC has two teams. The point is Chicago has two teams also, but with half the population. That shows you can fit two more viable teams here, and certainly 1 more would be successful. NYC used to have the Yankees, Giants, and Dodgers, before the last two bolted for a better deal. New Jersey is a logical possibility for the NY area's 3rd team

Balancing the number of sports teams against a metropolitan area's size only happens in a perfect world.

Los Angeles would have at least two NFL teams.

[GordonGecko]

Balancing the number of sports teams against a metropolitan area's size only happens in a perfect world.

Los Angeles would have at least two NFL teams.

Yes, potential market size is only one consideration. But don't forget, the Los Angeles NFL problem is about financing a 0.75 to 1.0+ billion dollar stadium for 8-10 games a year with maybe a potential Super Bowl every 10 years and some concerts here and there. The numbers haven't come together. I think NJ would have much less problems finding an owner with deep pockets to find private financing for a Stadium with 81+ games per year. Plus, the NYC metro market has been baseball crazy for over 100 years.

[aqib]

Balancing the number of sports teams against a metropolitan area's size only happens in a perfect world.

Los Angeles would have at least two NFL teams.

Hahahaha they had two, they didn't support either one. There is reason to beleive NYC area would support a third...

[Power Wally]

So, who is the unlucky team to get their territory invaded upon with a competing team in the same league?. Yankees or Mets? Will we flip a coin?

[aqib]

So, who is the unlucky team to get their territory invaded upon with a competing team in the same league?. Yankees or Mets? Will we flip a coin?

We had this discussion in the New York Giants board in the teams of yesteryear section. The concensus was it should be an NL team since the Yankees have the Red Sox as its natural rival, whereas the Mets really don't have one.

[Power Wally]

We had this discussion in the New York Giants board in the teams of yesteryear section. The concensus was it should be an NL team since the Yankees have the Red Sox as its natural rival, whereas the Mets really don't have one.

Did your concensus pick any particular team to fill the void, such as the SF Giants?

[Anubis2051]

theres a pro ball club in atlantic city called the atlantic city surf http://www.acsurf.com/index.php

not anymore, the team folded prior to this season.

[BigMac1212]

How about a Triple-A team, should MLB expand to 32 teams?

[Philtration]

How about the Palisades Park Piscopos?


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/phil62/baseball%20site/joe-piscopo_then_now_502.jpg

[BigMac1212]

How about this for the dimesions: (based on averages of Citi Field & Yankee Stadium II)

LF: 326
LC: 392
CF: 408
RC: 382
RF: 322

[DaBigMotor]

Don't know much about the area, but a debate inside the debate about a 3rd team in the NYC area would perhaps be Jersey vs Brooklyn, would it not?

[Twenty Seven]

The New Jersey Stinkholes

[BigMac1212]

The Jersey City Americans.

It'd be ironic if they were affilated with Toronto

[orioles667083]

The New Jersey Orange Cones, Toll Collectors? Toll Roads?

[GuitarPunk2512]

the bergan cliffhawks, a future team to play in the independent atlantic league, were suppose to get a new stadium at the failing xanadu, but the developer went bankrupt, so idn whats going on with them now.

[SparkyL]

Interesting that this thread was dormant since August of 2008 and now . . "it's baaack"

[LizrdKng67]

To steal a line from the Chairman of the Board from his album "Sinatra at the Sands," how about...the Bayonne Baccalas!

[Celerino Sanchez]

I always thought the Trenton Thunder ( nickname with no s at the end, I hate them) should have been named the Trenton Makes (after the bridge sign) with a the same bridge across the front of the jerseys

[Coach Bombay]

I always thought the Trenton Thunder ( nickname with no s at the end, I hate them) should have been named the Trenton Makes (after the bridge sign) with a the same bridge across the front of the jerseys

That's a horrible name.

[DiggerODell]

The "Jersey Vultures"? Unless of course, they get an expansion club . . . and we all know the Yanks and Mets would never allow that, no matter what considerations were thrown in.

[SparkyL]

That's a horrible name.

Most people in the Trenton area really like that name and were indeed concerned when the Yankees took over the affiliation from the Red Sox that the name would be changed. They are happy it wasn't.

Now . . let's let this ol' thread go back into hibernation.

[Anubis2051]

Interesting that this thread was dormant since August of 2008 and now . . "it's baaack"

Now . . let's let this ol' thread go back into hibernation.

Wow spark, someone really has a problem with this thread. What gives? Threads get resurrected all the time.


I still would love to see a park on the boardwalk in AC, sort of like the coney park, but with the Surf folding, thats not going to happen anytime soon. Jersey City would be amazing too, with a view of manhattan and the statue of liberty.

[BigMac1212]

How about the Tri-States Islanders?

Okay, naming teams is not my strenght.

[Celerino Sanchez]

That's a horrible name.

Ever been to Trenton there coach ? Ever hear of , or see the "Trenton Makes the World Takes" sign ? I think it finished second or third in the naming contest. Ever see the Thunders logo ? Do you understand where the hockey Bruins logo comes from ? Ever give a little thought to something original ?

[DaBigMotor]

Wow spark, someone really has a problem with this thread. What gives? Threads get resurrected all the time.


I still would love to see a park on the boardwalk in AC, sort of like the coney park, but with the Surf folding, thats not going to happen anytime soon. Jersey City would be amazing too, with a view of manhattan and the statue of liberty.

I guess my issue would be some of the dumb assed responses - POOR attempts at flippant humor which are distractions from any real discussion on the issue. A shame that it was brought back up, only to see a majority of the responses look like they came from Peter Griffin.