Darrell Evans HOFer ?

[bryanlc]

Looking for some opinions on Darrell Evans. Is it his 248 career average keeping him out ?

Any chance the veterans committee will recognize him ?


Would a letter writing campaign have any affect on consideration ?

[Fuzzy Bear]

His .248 BA isn't helping. What's really keeping Evans out of the HOF is the perception (accurate, in my mind) that he's not a career third baseman.

[SABR Matt]

Darrell Evans is absolutely a HOFer.

Third base is a TERRIBLY weak position historically. Not many great players play there for long. Evans was one of the best who qualified at third.

[Paul Wendt]

> Looking for some opinions on Darrell Evans. Is it his 248 career average keeping him out ?

I think that knocked him off the writers ballot quickly.

> Any chance the veterans committee will recognize him ?

It's a new system, with the living Hall of Fame members meeting in person during induction weekend to put ten players on the printed ballot. If attendance is high that may practically make up the minds of more than half the voters.

> Would a letter writing campaign have any affect on consideration ?

I doubt it. Yes if the letter recruits one or two eloquent spokesmen, IMO preferably a National League pitcher. If Tom Seaver stands up and says "Darrell Evans only hit .248 but . . ." and he continues with praise for Evans as a batter.

Evans and Nettles will be in the pool together [not this winter]. They have almost the same batting record, Evans = Nettles + 500 walks. Nettles's stellar reputation with the glove and Evans's DH time might make that an obstacle. Their timing was poor for gaining a Dave Concepcion foothold on the ballot --not to say viability, merely 15 years on the ballot. Their careers nearly coincided with Mike Schmidt and George Brett. Brett had just retired when Nettles hit the ballot (with shortstop Concepcion). Next year Schmidt and Evans arrived together.

On the other hand, maybe DaEvans will find himself compared with National Leaguers only, a couple years from now after they have elected Ron Santo. Maybe we will read that the Hall of Famers decided to nominate five from each league because so many of them played, managed, or g-managed mainly in one league.

[bryanlc]

His .248 BA isn't helping. What's really keeping Evans out of the HOF is the perception (accurate, in my mind) that he's not a career third baseman.

Thanks for thoughts.

Could his play at first and for the Giants at short show versatility instead of being a negative ?

[Yankwood]

I've always thought of Evans as a one-dimensional ballplayer who didn't get enough out of that "dimension" to warrant HOF consideration.

[Ursa Major]

Gee, I wish he would get elected, for one mercenary reason. Ursa Minor and I were at the Hall of Fame fan fest in San Francisco last year and stood in line for two hours for "free autographs". Since they changed the signers every half hour, it was kind of a grab bag who you got. We ended up with Bob Feller (very nice man who was delighted that a 13 year old knew who he way [Okay, I'd prepped him during the wait]) and Darrell Evans. It would have been rude to get Feller's autograph and then bolt the line, so we got one autograph each (on a ball separate from Feller's - DUH) from Evans.

Still, if this thread draws in any Evans fans who would like a free Darrell Evans autographed ball (with sticker of authenticity) for the cost of the postage and packaging -- PM me.

[Cougar]

For a long time, Darrell Evans and Dave Kingman were the only eligible players with over 400 HR who weren't in the HOF. Now there are a large number of these folks, of course....But I suspect a number of them will get it eventually (Dawson, McGriff, McGwire, etc.) Jose Canseco won't make it.

Anyway, there were some very good reasons to exclude Kong. Evans I'm less sure about. Indeed, the .248 BA is extremely detrimental to Darrell's candidacy, almost certainly the major stumbling block.

In terms of the positional argument...that Evans may not have been a "real" third baseman...I figure (from B-R) that Evans played 54.5% of his career games at 3b, with most of the rest at either 1b or DH.

George Brett played only 62.5% of his games as a 3rd baseman...but no one evet says he wasn't primarily a 3b. I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

Pretty much, it's context...both of these player compiled most of their 1b/DH time after their 35th birthday. To a certain degree holding this against them penalizes then for longevity a little. The fact is, they're third basemen who lost some fielding ability/durability towards the end of their career.

[Fuzzy Bear]

For a long time, Darrell Evans and Dave Kingman were the only eligible players with over 400 HR who weren't in the HOF. Now there are a large number of these folks, of course....But I suspect a number of them will get it eventually (Dawson, McGriff, McGwire, etc.) Jose Canseco won't make it.

Anyway, there were some very good reasons to exclude Kong. Evans I'm less sure about. Indeed, the .248 BA is extremely detrimental to Darrell's candidacy, almost certainly the major stumbling block.

In terms of the positional argument...that Evans may not have been a "real" third baseman...I figure (from B-R) that Evans played 54.5% of his career games at 3b, with most of the rest at either 1b or DH.

George Brett played only 62.5% of his games as a 3rd baseman...but no one evet says he wasn't primarily a 3b. I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

Pretty much, it's context...both of these player compiled most of their 1b/DH time after their 35th birthday. To a certain degree holding this against them penalizes then for longevity a little. The fact is, they're third basemen who lost some fielding ability/durability towards the end of their career.

Using Brett as a comparision to Evans isn't the best way to clarify the "Is he a third baseman?" issue, in part because Brett's career stats are such that he'd be a HOFer if he were a career 1B or LF with marginal defensive value. The same holds true for Paul Molitor, who'd be a HOFer if he never played the infield. The same will, I believe, eventually hold true for Edgar Martinez.

How to evaluate Evans? He was done as a full-time first baseman at age 36, and pulled 1B/DH duty pretty much after that. But there were 241 games in 1976-77 where Evans played 1B and LF. Why was that?

It doesn't seem that Evans couldn't play the position anymore. In 1976, the Braves traded Evans to the Giants for first baseman Willie Montanez. Evans moved to 1B with the Giants mainly because the Giants had Ken Reitz, a glove man all the way, at 3B in 1976-77. The Giants acquired Bill Madlock in 1978, but they chose to move Evans back to 3B, and shift Madlock to 2B. (Willie McCovey returned to the Giant 1B slot in 1977 and the Giants opted to go with Terry Whitfield in LF in 1978.) The moves seem crazy, but the 1978 Giants improved by 14 games over 1977, so Evans deserves some credit for the improvement.

As Evans held down 3B through 1982, I will assume that he COULD have played 3B in 1976-77. That would give him 1,683 games at 3B, putting him at about 67 percent of his career at 3B. That makes his case better.

I still have a problem with Evans vs. Nettles. Nettles has comparable offensive stats. He wasn't quite the walks guy Evans was, but he was much, much better defensively. He was, arguably, the equal of Brooks Robinson in the field, and Nettles had a higher career Offensive Winning Percentage than Brooks Robinson. Nettles, IMO, has a much more clear cut case than Evans, in that he is very similar.

There's also Bob Elliott, who is an extremely underrated third baseman, who had a .641 Offensive Winning Percentage (higher than Evans'). Elliott WAS regarded, while active, as a star, whereas no one regarded Evans as a star player while active. I know the BA was a hangup for some folks, but there is something to the fact that Elliott was regarded as a star by observers of his time and Evans wasn't.

I don't see Evans as the clear cut HOFer some people here do. I think he's like Craig Biggio; he became one of Bill James' ideosyncratic favorites, and, in the process, went from extremely underrated to somewhat overrated.

[Cougar]

I'm with you on Brett being a clear HOFer and Evans being more borderline, but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. I'm just talking about what position one wants to associate a guy with.

Putting it another way -- you bring up Bob Elliott as a third baseman of equal or greater value...and you may be right. Elliott was really good; I've got Evans ahead of him myself, mostly on career length, but I could get talked out of that. (I'm also with you that Nettles is better than Evans by a little bit.)

Anyway, back to Elliott: He came up as an outfielder, and after he switched to 3b he spent portions of several seasons in the cow pastures. He only played 69% of his career games at the hot corner.

So, ought we to consider Elliott a third baseman, or a multi-position guy? Probably a third baseman, but you see my point that this positional things is more art than science.

The Brett comparison was strictly on time spent at 3b. Brett spent nearly 40% of his career as a 1b or DH. But who cares? He made the Hall of Fame while he was still a third baseman.

With Evans, probably you've got to look harder at the whole career, especially since Evans was unusually productive towards career end. He really didn't play a lot of DH...only 253 games over 5 seasons in the AL, and in only the last of those seasons did he play more as a DH than in the field. Basically, we're talking about a guy who was a pretty good fielding 3b until age 35 (that got bounced to 1b or LF by team needs in a couple of seasons), and then got shifted to 1b as age encroached, where he was still a pretty good glove for a few seasons.

That sounds like a guy you basically call a third baseman to me...he probably doesn't get a huge defensive bonus, but the alternative -- calling him a multi-positional player, or a 3b-1b-OF hybrid -- seems too harsh.

[bryanlc]

Hey Guys,
Thanks so much for all the great info and opinions. My baseball knowledge pails in comparison to you'all and I love reading your arguments for and against.

The reason I'm interested in Evans is because I recorded a 45 minute interview with him last night. The guy is a total class act who at 61 is still throwing BP for the Orange County Flyers as their hitting coach along side Gary Carter. I've watched him manage the last few years and really like his style. His 1600 walks keep popping out at me as a greatly under valued stat.

Here is a link to some photos from the Flyers game last night.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/675827

[Paul Wendt]

I suppose you are missing the point re the "career thirdbaseman". Of course Evans is a thirdbaseman, so he is commonly compared with other thirdbasemen. In that comparison, the fact that Evans was not a career thirdbaseman is a count against him. After one notes that Darrell Evans was a terrific defensive thirdbaseman and Buddy Bell was a terrific defensive thirdbaseman, one acknowledges that Evans moved to a less valuable position and Bell played third thruout his mlb career (except his rookie season when Nettles was in place).

Many players are classified at positions where they played only about half of their careers. Duffy, Banks, and Carew for three Hall of Famers.

[leecemark]

--I don't know that the evidence for Evans being a "terrific defensive thirdbaseman" is particularly compelling. He was never regarded as such while active. I know DWS likes him, but defensive metics are not exacty refined. My recollection of Evans is as an adequete 3B and good 1B.
--He was very inconsistent with the bat and was regarded as a disappointment much of his career (one huge season early maybe set the bar too high for him). He did develop into a consistent HR hitter late in his career, but he was almost exclusively a firstbaseman by then (the big contract year in SF and then finding a niche in cozy Tiger Stadium).

[OleMissCub]

What hurts him (and yes, I know these things aren't the end all/be all, but it is stuff many people look at):

- Only an All-Star twice in a 21 year career
- Never finished in top 10 MVP voting
- Never won a Gold Glove

compare that to a contemporary of his like Santo, who isn't even in:

- Nine time All-Star in a 15 year career
- Finished in top 10 MVP voting 4 times
- Won five Gold Gloves


I can't imagine any way that he'd get into the HOF.

[SABR Matt]

Just FWIW...to add to the comment about DWS, my own metric sees Evans as a rather good third baseman defensively, albeit his peak was short.

Year Ps Rk EqG Z-Sc. PCA-BA Wins HOF-M
1971 3B 4 68 1.051 0.310 1.29 1.75
1972 3B 4 124 0.765 0.299 2.12 2.73
1973 3B 1 146 2.021 0.347 3.67 5.57
1974 3B 1 161 2.693 0.372 4.75 7.53

After which he degraded quickly into a below average third baseman and an average first baseman.

That's not conclusive or anything...just another stone to throw into the gravel pit. Baseball-prospectus also likes Darrell Evans at third, FWIW.

with 4, 17, 28 and 12 FRAA in those same four years and a combined Rate2 at third (for his whole career) of 104 (111 in those first four years).

[Fuzzy Bear]

What hurts him (and yes, I know these things aren't the end all/be all, but it is stuff many people look at):

- Only an All-Star twice in a 21 year career
- Never finished in top 10 MVP voting
- Never won a Gold Glove

compare that to a contemporary of his like Santo, who isn't even in:

- Nine time All-Star in a 15 year career
- Finished in top 10 MVP voting 4 times
- Won five Gold Gloves


I can't imagine any way that he'd get into the HOF.

I, too, rate Santo ahead of Evans.

Part of Evans' misfortune was that he played during the era of Mike Schmidt, who WAS a great player, the greatest third baseman ever. And Schmidt was a great defensive player, as well as a great offensive player, so whoever may have won the Gold Glove if Schmidt weren't there was bound to have been overshadowed.

But, as leecemark pointed out, the evidence that Evans was an outstanding defensive player is not overwhelming. Evans had very good range factors, but his fielding percentage was usually below league average. This was a consistent pattern throughout Evans' career, and not just at 3B, but at other positions as well. I believe that Evans was a average-to-good defensive player, and a good defensive player at his best, but I doubt he was a Gold Glove-caliber defensive third baseman, and I believe that Bill James (and others) have overstated Evans' defensive credentials.

[Cougar]

I suppose you are missing the point re the "career thirdbaseman". Of course Evans is a thirdbaseman, so he is commonly compared with other thirdbasemen. In that comparison, the fact that Evans was not a career thirdbaseman is a count against him. After one notes that Darrell Evans was a terrific defensive thirdbaseman and Buddy Bell was a terrific defensive thirdbaseman, one acknowledges that Evans moved to a less valuable position and Bell played third thruout his mlb career (except his rookie season when Nettles was in place).

Many players are classified at positions where they played only about half of their careers. Duffy, Banks, and Carew for three Hall of Famers.

I'll buy that as a totally valid point, and Bell (and Nettles, and Gaetti, etc.) should get credit for maintaining their defensive value that Evans (and, say, Brett, not that it matters in his case) do not merit.

At the same time, one can turn that point on its head. Evans was a valuable enough offensive player that it made sense to move him left on the defensive spectrum to a less challenging position and still benefit from his production. Bell, on the other hand, had so much of his value tied up in his defensive value that once he started to slip, his career was over.

(Granted, Bell lost offense and defense pretty much all at once, but I hope you'll take my point...no decent team was going to make him an everyday 1b/DH even if he retained most of his offensive value.)

[KCGHOST]

I blow hot and cold on Evans. Some days I like him and some days I don't. And I think his career length had something to do with. Some days I think it's great the guy could play 21 seasons then other days i say why didn't he do more.

Today is a why didn't he do more.