More valuable: Closers or Setup Men?

[SoxFan68]

Who is more valuable to their teams? Closers or setup men?

It seems to me like closers are overrated a tad because they come into the 9th and this false sense of pressure builds up in the air just because it's the 9th inning. The pressure is just the same, if not MUCH more with runners on base in the 6th, 7th or 8th inning for setup men.

Are they really "saving" the game when their team possesses a three run or even a two run lead? Saves tend to get a lot more respect than holds, which seem to be turning into more of a household number than it was before. I feel like it's more impressive when a reliever comes in with the bases loaded/two RISP and one/no outs with the tying/go ahead run at the plate, then get out of it. On the contrary, a closer is capable of this if the reliever before them can't get the job done but it doesn't seem like this is put to use enough by managers. They save their closer for the ninth and just the ninth inning. Then if their reliever blows it they give up and leave the closer on the bench just because it isn't a "save opportunity"..

Is there some sort of statistical analysis that proves me wrong or right? Opinions regardless of the stats?

[skyking162]

Even though most closers are used in some unimportant save situations, they do tend to rack up higher LIs than setup men. And they do tend to be better pitchers overall, although of course there are exceptions.

Bullpens could definitely be used more efficiently.

[NewEnglandAmazins]

I'll go with Set-Up Men: With Starting Pitchers working fewer innings, Set-up Men are asked to pitch more innings and in tighter situations than the average Closer is accustomed to. Set-up Men help create many Save Opportunities.:twocents:

[skyking162]

Set-up Men are asked to pitch in tighter situations than the average Closer is accustomed to.

In general, that's not true. The link below is a Fangraphs leaderboard of every relief pitcher with at least 30 innings in 2008, sorted with the relievers who have pitched in tighter situations at the top. Notice that they're mostly all closers.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=30&type=0&season=2008&month=0

Top 25:

Name SV LI
Fran Rodriguez 45 2.55
B.J. Ryan 22 2.34
Brian Wilson 32 2.33
C.J. Wilson 24 2.29
George Sherrill 31 2.26
Huston Street 18 2.15
Kevin Gregg 25 2.13
Trevor Hoffman 24 2.01
Kerry Wood 24 2
Brian Fuentes 21 1.98
Ryan Franklin 14 1.98
Heath Bell 0 1.91
Salomon Torres 22 1.91
Brad Lidge 28 1.88
Joe Nathan 31 1.88
Mariano Rivera 28 1.88
Matt Capps 17 1.88
Francis Cordero 22 1.83
Hideki Okajima 1 1.83
Joakim Soria 32 1.82
Brandon Lyon 24 1.8
Takashi Saito 17 1.79
Tyler Walker 0 1.76
Troy Percival 25 1.75
Jon Papelbon 31 1.75

(LI stands for leverage index, and is a measure of the "tightness" of a situation. An LI of 2 means the situation is twice as important as the average situation. The LI column in the chart below is the average LI of all the situations that a pitcher appeared.)

I only included the saves totals to show how many of these pitchers are closers. I agree that saves are a bunk stat.

[philkid3]

It's impossible to answer definitively, but in general it's closers.

[SABR Matt]

Neither.

WHo cares about the label. The best relievers...are the best relievers. Wherever they pitch.

[Memphis]

Even though most closers are used in some unimportant save situations, they do tend to rack up higher LIs than setup men. And they do tend to be better pitchers overall, although of course there are exceptions.

Which is exactly why closers are, for the most part, wasted. Why would you use (i.e. waste) one of your best pitchers to pitch the 9th inning in a 6-3 ballgame? Studies have consistently proved that even a below average pitcher would be successful in this situation about 90% of the time.

Secondly, how many IP's does a closer get through the course of an entire season? 50? 60? 70?

That is not enough innings for, ostensibly, your BEST pitcher. You're not getting your money's worth - especially if he's one of these $6-million closers.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[NewEnglandAmazins]

In general, that's not true. The link below is a Fangraphs leaderboard of every relief pitcher with at least 30 innings in 2008, sorted with the relievers who have pitched in tighter situations at the top. Notice that they're mostly all closers.

This is interesting, how is LI calculated?

[Second Base Coach]

I would want to know two things about you as a relief pitcher when comparing you to either a closer or a middle man on the same team.

First, pitcher records in complete innings, you start it, you finish it. Compare the ERA to league averages, and look at the number of innings of work. How many runs below average are you? How does that stack up with the rest of the team?

Second, if there are runners on base when you come in, what happens to those runners? Do you strand them? Yeah, yeah, I know I am asking a lot and those runners aren't your fault, but I am paying you a lot of money to help us win games, and it sure would help if you did well enough so that the batters you face could not drive them in.

[Xeifrank]

My vote is for... use your best pitcher(s) in the highest leverage situations. This isn't possible all the time, but today's managers sure could do a better job of it.
vr, Xeifrank

[BenHertz]

It varies game-by-game, depending on which inning the other team's best hitters are going to bat.

Sometimes the matchups can look like this:

Setup pitcher(s):
7th inning: 1-2-3 batters.
8th inning: 4-5-6 batters.

Closer:
9th inning: 7-8-9 batters.

[skyking162]

This is interesting, how is LI calculated?

Part 1: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/crucial-situations/
Part 2: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/crucial-situations-part-2/

[KCGHOST]

I guess the average closer is probably better than the average setup guy.

[Brad Harris]

Neither.

WHo cares about the label. The best relievers...are the best relievers. Wherever they pitch.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.