The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game – Game On!

[Freakshow]

Let’s get started! In this thread, we’ll produce our collaborative rankings of the top players in history. In the introductory thread for this game, The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game (http://208.84.112.223/showthread.php?t=81257), you’ll find a thorough discussion of the rules. Here’s a briefer presentation of them.

The basic idea is we rank every player in history, taking turns listing the next name.

It would help if you already have a system in place for assessing hundreds of players. Well, I would hope at least 300, to capture every HOF-caliber player.

We’ve established a rotation of Gamers, arranging the names alphabetically to start with. The current rotation is listed in this post. Anyone who wants to join in and play is welcome; your name will be placed at the bottom of the rotation, so wait until it’s your turn to list a player. If you want to quit the game at any time, just let us know and we’ll take your name off the rotation. Periodically, we’ll reorder the rotation.

We’ll use Hall of Fame criteria for ranking players, so everything counts (character, managing, their overall contribution). Active players will be included, but they should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up. Negro leaguers will be included. Japanese league stars with less than four years in MLB will not be included.

Players whose primary contribution was non-playing (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, etc.) will be ranked only on consideration of their playing career, not their total contribution.

Gamers have three options:

1) Add a player - Pretty simple, just recopy the list, adding your guy at the bottom. Doing this means you’re OK with the previous two players listed. A brief justification for your player is a good thing to include, but not required. Place the statement, “[Gamer X] is now on the clock” to signify the end of your turn. More about “on the clock” later.
2) Remove a player – You may remove one of the last two names on the list, adding your player at the bottom. After your player’s name, place this statement in parentheses: “sorry, I had to remove [player X] – Xth time”. (The same player can be removed up to a maximum of three times; after that he stays put the fourth time he is listed. A player may be listed a maximum of three times by the same Gamer.) Then place the “clock” statement to end your turn.
3) Reinstate and add – Before listing your player you can list the name of a player who was Removed in the previous turn. After the reinstated player’s name, place the word “reinstated” in parentheses. (You may not Reinstate and Remove in the same turn.) Then place the “clock” statement to end your turn.

On The Clock – A Gamer ends his official turn with the statement “[Gamer X] is now on the clock”. Gamer X has to wait at least an hour before he may post his official turn. This delay is to encourage discussion and feedback from the other Gamers as to the previous turn, as well as discussing the upcoming pick. They can try to persuade Gamer X to play his turn in a certain way. If Gamer X posts his turn early (<57 minutes after the previous turn) one of the other Gamers must alert him that he posted too early, that his turn is not official. In this case, after the required hour has passed Gamer X must make a post to reaffirm his turn or it will not count.

Unexcused Absence - Gamer X forfeits his turn if he has not posted his official turn (or reaffirmed his turn if posted too early) within 24 hours of being On the Clock. One of the Gamers should alert the Gamer following Gamer X that he is now On the Clock. Gamer X will be placed at the end of the round, if he requests to stay in the game; otherwise he will have no turn this round. This counts as an Unexcused Absence. After two consecutive Unexcused Absences or four overall, a Gamer will be allowed only a 12-hour clock for his turn. (It would be helpful if, when a Gamer is near to having his Clock expire (say, less than four hours to go) if the following gamer sent him a reminder via PM.)

Excused Absence - If Gamer X knows he will be away from the game, he should make this known to the other Gamers before his turn comes up. This way, everyone knows to skip him and put the next Gamer on the Clock. Gamer X will be moved to the end of the current rotation if he requests it; otherwise we’ll simply skip his turn. This eliminates having the game on hold for 24 hours, keeping things moving.

So, each name will have to pass the scrutiny of at least two other voters before it becomes permanent. We’re collaborating to, hopefully, produce a better ranking than any one of us could produce on our own.

In actual play, I would hope that the Remove option would only be used for players you think are listed significantly early, and not to replace guys you have coming up soon in your queue anyway. See the introductory thread for an example of the sequence of play.

Above all, we should maintain a spirit of cooperation. We’re working together to produce the very best rankings that we can. Discussion is encouraged here! We seek to enlighten others, relying on the force of our evidence more than our rhetoric. We hope that all Gamers will engage in a civil discourse that has become the hallmark of this forum.
Pitchers -
1 8 Walter Johnson *
2 15 Lefty Grove *
3 18 Greg Maddux #
4 21 Roger Clemens +
5 23 Cy Young *
6 27 Pete Alexander *
7 31 Christy Mathewson *
8 34 Tom Seaver *
9 35 Satchel Paige --
10 41 Warren Spahn *
11 44 Randy Johnson #
12 46 Steve Carlton *
13 50 Kid Nichols *
14 58 Bob Feller *
15 59 Smokey Joe Williams --
16 66 Bob Gibson *
17 67 Pedro Martinez #
18 74 Carl Hubbell *
19 75 Nolan Ryan *
20 78 Sandy Koufax *
21 84 Robin Roberts *
22 88 Eddie Plank *
23 89 Jim Palmer *
24 95 Bert Blyleven
25 103 Gaylord Perry *
26 105 Ed Walsh *
28 114 Phil Niekro *
29 116 Tim Keefe *
30 118 Mordecai Brown *
31 123 Whitey Ford *
32 126 Juan Marichal *
33 128 Dazzy Vance *
34 129 Bullet Joe Rogan --
36 136 John Clarkson *
37 142 Hal Newhouser *
39 149 Fergie Jenkins *
40 150 Tom Glavine #
41 152 Don Sutton *
42 166 Amos Rusie *
43 172 Curt Schilling +
44 173 John Smoltz #
45 174 Charley Radbourn *
46 176 Rube Foster --
47 177 Mike Mussina #
50 183 Rube Waddell *
51 184 Red Ruffing *
52 187 Don Drysdale *
53 190 Stan Coveleski *
54 192 Early Wynn *
55 201 Ray Brown --
56 202 Jim Bunning *
57 203 Al Spalding *
58 204 Ted Lyons *
59 205 Eppa Rixey *
60 215 Wes Ferrell
61 218 Bill Foster --
62 222 Kevin Brown +
63 223 Joe McGinnity *
64 224 Pud Galvin *
65 229 Dizzy Dean *
66 231 Red Faber *
67 239 Jose Mendez --
68 252 Bob Lemon *
70 259 Clark Griffith *
71 263 Bob Caruthers
72 269 Vic Willis *
74 272 Johan Santana #
76 287 Jim McCormick
77 290 Tommy Bridges
78 296 Carl Mays
79 299 Burleigh Grimes *
80 306 Addie Joss *
81 307 Mickey Welch *
82 308 Billy Pierce
83 310 Dave Stieb
84 312 Tony Mullane
85 313 Urban Shocker
86 316 Tommy John
87 318 Hilton Smith --
88 321 Wilbur Cooper
89 323 Bret Saberhagen
90 330 Dick Redding ---
91 338 Luis Tiant
92 340 Ron Guidry
93 344 Bucky Walters
94 345 Jack Morris
95 349 Lefty Gomez *
97 358 Leon Day --
98 359 Jim Creighton
100 361 David Cone
102 364 Jim Kaat
103 368 Herb Pennock *
104 369 Catfish Hunter *
105 370 Chief Bender *
106 372 Rick Reuschel
107 381 Tommy Bond
108 382 Don Newcombe
109 386 Lon Warneke
111 399 Dolf Luque
112 402 Eddie Cicotte +
113 403 Waite Hoyt *
114 406 Frank Tanana
116 410 Roy Oswalt #
117 415 Dutch Leonard
118 428 Mickey Lolich
119 431 Jerry Koosman
120 432 Bill Jackman ---
121 436 Orel Hershiser
122 437 Roy Halladay #
124 441 Hippo Vaughn
125 449 Dizzy Trout
128 454 Jack Quinn
130 457 Brandon Webb #
131 459 Vida Blue
132 462 Kevin Appier
133 464 Andy Cooper --
134 465 Noodles Hahn
135 468 Silver King
136 470 Virgil Trucks
137 471 Chuck Finley
138 474 Allie Reynolds
139 477 Harry Brecheen
140 479 Smoky Joe Wood
141 485 Babe Adams
Relief Pitchers
27 113 Mariano Rivera #
35 133 Dennis Eckersley *
38 146 Hoyt Wilhelm *
48 178 Rich Gossage *
49 181 Rollie Fingers *
69 258 Bruce Sutter *
73 270 Trevor Hoffman #
75 281 Dan Quisenberry
96 356 Billy Wagner #
99 360 Kent Tekulve
101 362 Lee Smith
110 388 John Franco +
115 408 Firpo Marberry
123 438 John Hiller
126 450 John Wetteland
127 451 Tom Henke
129 455 Sparky Lyle
Catchers
01 10 Josh Gibson --
02 25 Yogi Berra *
03 30 Johnny Bench *
04 49 Mike Piazza +
05 61 Mickey Cochrane *
06 77 Roy Campanella *
07 79 Buck Ewing *
08 98 Ivan Rodriguez #
09 99 Gary Carter *
10 101 Carlton Fisk *
11 124 Bill Dickey *
12 130 Gabby Hartnett *
13 132 Deacon White
14 157 Louis Santop --
15 170 Ted Simmons
16 189 Joe Torre
17 221 Bill Freehan
18 235 Charlie Bennett
19 236 Roger Bresnahan *
20 266 Cal McVey
21 275 Thurman Munson
22 285 Biz Mackey --
23 298 Ernie Lombardi *
24 303 Elston Howard
25 317 Quincy Trouppe ---
26 320 Lance Parrish
27 331 Wally Schang
28 380 Jorge Posada #
29 385 Deacon McGuire
30 387 Gene Tenace
31 390 Walker Cooper
32 392 Ray Schalk *
33 401 Darrell Porter
34 407 Bob Boone
35 420 Ted Radcliffe ---
36 433 Duke Farrell
37 446 Jim Sundberg
38 461 Johnny Kling
39 494 Darren Daulton
First Basemen
01 12 Lou Gehrig *
02 22 Jimmie Foxx *
03 33 Cap Anson *
04 39 Dan Brouthers *
05 47 Hank Greenberg *
06 68 Frank Thomas #
07 70 Johnny Mize *
08 73 Jeff Bagwell +
09 76 Buck Leonard --
10 80 Harmon Killebrew *
11 82 Eddie Murray *
12 86 Willie McCovey *
13 97 Roger Connor *
14 110 Mule Suttles --
15 115 Mark McGwire
16 121 Albert Pujols #
17 137 Dick Allen
18 144 Rafael Palmeiro +
19 158 Jim Thome #
20 168 Joe Start
21 191 Fred McGriff +
22 198 Orlando Cepeda *
23 199 Carlos Delgado #
24 209 Tony Perez *
25 217 George Sisler *
26 232 Keith Hernandez
27 233 Will Clark
28 241 Bill Terry *
29 255 Todd Helton #
30 286 Frank Chance *
31 302 Steve Garvey
32 314 Jake Beckley *
33 322 Don Mattingly
34 329 Norm Cash
35 333 Gil Hodges
36 351 Jim Bottomley *
37 371 John Olerud +
38 389 Mickey Vernon
39 391 Boog Powell
40 397 Jason Giambi #
41 398 Ben Taylor --
42 413 Mark Grace
43 425 Andres Galarraga +
44 430 David Ortiz #
45 445 Jack Fournier
46 472 Ed Konetchy
47 486 Luke Easter ---
48 499 Dolph Camilli
Second Basemen
01 14 Rogers Hornsby *
02 19 Eddie Collins *
03 29 Nap Lajoie *
04 32 Joe Morgan *
05 36 Jackie Robinson *
06 57 Charlie Gehringer *
07 63 Frankie Frisch *
08 72 Craig Biggio +
09 87 Rod Carew *
10 108 Roberto Alomar +
11 120 Ryne Sandberg *
12 140 Bobby Grich
13 154 Ross Barnes
14 160 Lou Whitaker
15 169 Joe Gordon *
16 180 Jeff Kent #
17 188 Billy Herman *
18 210 Bid McPhee *
19 227 Bobby Doerr *
20 248 Hardy Richardson
21 256 Nellie Fox *
22 257 Frank Grant --
23 274 Larry Doyle
24 289 Red Schoendienst *
25 301 Willie Randolph
26 304 Cupid Childs
27 311 Tony Lazzeri *
28 339 Dick McAuliffe
29 375 Bill Mazeroski *
30 377 Johnny Evers *
31 378 Buddy Myer
32 379 Del Pratt
33 394 Fred Dunlap
34 411 Chino Smith ---
35 429 Jim Gilliam
36 442 Julio Franco +
37 448 Bill Monroe ---
38 482 Chuck Knoblauch
39 487 Tony Phillips
40 489 Frank White
41 497 Davey Lopes
Third Basemen
01 16 Mike Schmidt *
02 42 George Brett *
03 45 Eddie Mathews *
04 62 Wade Boggs *
05 83 Frank Baker *
06 92 Chipper Jones #
07 104 Ron Santo
08 134 Paul Molitor *
09 153 Brooks Robinson *
10 159 Jud Wilson --
11 162 Jimmy Collins *
12 193 Edgar Martinez +
13 197 Darrell Evans
14 211 Ezra Sutton
15 212 John Beckwith ---
16 213 Heinie Groh
17 216 Ken Boyer
18 242 Stan Hack
19 245 Pie Traynor *
20 254 Graig Nettles
21 267 Ray Dandridge --
22 268 Tommy Leach
23 282 Bob Elliott
24 295 Scott Rolen #
25 332 Sal Bando
26 336 George Kell *
27 341 Al Rosen
28 343 John McGraw *
29 355 Lave Cross
30 366 Ron Cey
31 373 Buddy Bell
32 393 Robin Ventura +
33 396 Matt Williams
34 424 Ned Williamson
35 426 Levi Meyerle
36 440 Bus Clarkson ---
37 463 Gary Gaetti
38 473 Bill Madlock
39 476 Ollie Marcelle ---
40 483 Bobby Bonilla
41 484 Larry Gardner
42 496 Toby Harrah
43 500 Eddie Yost
Shortstops
01 4 Honus Wagner *
02 26 Alex Rodriguez #
03 37 Pop Lloyd --
04 43 Cal Ripken *
05 51 Arky Vaughan *
06 69 Robin Yount *
07 81 Ernie Banks *
08 94 George Wright *
09 111 Barry Larkin +
10 112 Joe Cronin *
11 117 Alan Trammell
12 122 George Davis *
13 138 Pee Wee Reese *
14 141 Willie Wells --
15 148 Bill Dahlen
16 151 Luke Appling *
17 161 Ozzie Smith *
18 167 Derek Jeter #
19 196 Lou Boudreau *
20 214 John Ward *
21 230 Dickey Pearce
22 234 Bobby Wallace *
23 253 Jack Glasscock
24 264 Hughie Jennings *
25 265 Dobie Moore ---
26 273 Joe Sewell *
27 279 Rabbit Maranville *
28 280 Vern Stephens
29 291 Luis Aparicio *
30 294 Homerun Johnson ---
31 325 Phil Rizzuto *
32 334 Nomar Garciaparra #
33 346 Herman Long
34 357 Dick Lundy ---
35 374 Dave Concepcion
36 400 Johnny Pesky
37 416 Miguel Tejada #
38 418 Jim Fregosi
39 419 Dave Bancroft *
40 434 Omar Vizquel #
41 444 Bert Campaneris
42 453 Tony Fernandez
43 456 Joe Tinker *
44 488 Alvin Dark
45 498 Maury Wills
Left Fielders
01 5 Ted Williams *
02 9 Barry Bonds +
03 11 Stan Musial *
04 38 Turkey Stearnes --
05 40 Rickey Henderson *
06 48 Ed Delahanty *
07 60 Carl Yastrzemski *
08 91 Tim Raines
09 106 Al Simmons *
10 107 Willie Stargell *
11 109 Jesse Burkett *
12 155 Joe Medwick *
13 163 Minnie Minoso
14 164 Fred Clarke *
15 171 Billy Williams *
16 175 Goose Goslin *
17 194 Sherry Magee
18 195 Zack Wheat *
19 208 Ralph Kiner *
20 220 Lou Brock *
21 225 Harry Stovey
22 246 Monte Irvin --
23 249 Jim Rice *
24 260 Albert Belle
25 284 Joe Kelley *
26 309 Jimmy Sheckard
27 319 Tip O'Neill
28 326 Charlie Keller
29 348 Charley Jones
30 350 Bobby Veach
31 352 Heinie Manush *
32 353 Bob Johnson
33 384 Lefty O'Doul
34 404 Frank Howard
35 405 Jose Cruz
36 412 Lance Berkman #
37 417 George J. Burns
38 421 Joe Carter
39 422 Luis Gonzalez #
40 467 George Foster
41 475 Ken Williams
Center Fielders
01 2 Ty Cobb *
02 3 Willie Mays *
03 6 Mickey Mantle *
04 13 Oscar Charleston --
05 17 Tris Speaker *
06 20 Joe DiMaggio *
07 52 Ken Griffey, Jr. #
08 64 Duke Snider *
09 100 Cristobal Torriente --
10 102 Billy Hamilton *
11 119 Cool Papa Bell --
12 127 Paul Hines
13 131 Jim O'Rourke *
14 135 Richie Ashburn *
15 145 Kirby Puckett *
16 156 Larry Doby *
17 186 Max Carey *
18 206 Andre Dawson
19 207 Pete Hill --
20 238 Jim Edmonds #
21 243 Earl Averill *
22 247 George Gore
23 250 Pete Browning
24 251 Jimmy Wynn
25 261 Dale Murphy
26 262 Hugh Duffy *
27 271 Bernie Williams +
28 276 Edd Roush *
29 277 Willard Brown --
30 278 Alejandro Oms ---
31 288 George Van Haltren
32 292 Hack Wilson *
33 305 Lip Pike
34 335 Jimmy Ryan
35 347 Wally Berger
36 363 Fielder Jones
37 365 Al Oliver
38 367 Vada Pinson
39 376 Fred Lynn
40 383 Kenny Lofton +
41 414 Cesar Cedeno
42 427 Brett Butler
43 435 Benny Kauff
44 447 Andruw Jones #
45 466 Amos Otis
46 469 Dummy Hoy
47 480 Dom DiMaggio
48 491 Cy Williams
49 492 Roy Thomas
50 495 Spotswood Poles ---
Right Fielders
01 1 Babe Ruth *
02 7 Hank Aaron *
03 24 Frank Robinson *
04 28 Mel Ott *
05 53 Al Kaline *
06 54 Pete Rose +
07 55 Reggie Jackson *
08 56 Tony Gwynn *
09 65 Sam Crawford *
10 71 Roberto Clemente *
11 85 Martin Dihigo --
12 90 Paul Waner *
13 93 King Kelly *
14 96 Harry Heilmann *
15 125 Joe Jackson +
16 139 Gary Sheffield #
17 143 Dave Winfield *
18 147 Manny Ramirez #
19 165 Sam Thompson *
20 179 Vlad Guerrero #
21 182 Sammy Sosa +
22 185 Enos Slaughter *
23 200 Willie Keeler *
24 219 Elmer Flick *
25 226 Dwight Evans
26 228 Ichiro Suzuki #
27 237 Larry Walker +
28 240 Dave Parker
29 244 Chuck Klein *
30 283 Reggie Smith
31 293 Bobby Bonds
32 297 Jose Canseco
33 300 Gavy Cravath
34 315 Tony Oliva
35 324 Kiki Cuyler *
36 327 Ken Singleton
37 328 Juan Gonzalez +
38 337 Sam Rice *
39 342 Rusty Staub
40 354 Buzz Arlett
41 395 Rocky Colavito
42 409 Harry Hooper *
43 423 Jack Clark
44 439 Harold Baines
45 443 Mike Tiernan
46 452 Darryl Strawberry
47 458 Roger Maris
48 460 Babe Herman
49 478 Paul O'Neill
50 481 Bobby Murcer
51 490 Bobby Abreu #
52 493 Brian Giles #
CURRENT ROTATION OF GAMERS
Round 55:
henrich
dgarza
jjpm74
STLCards2
John Shoemaker
bambambaseball
Freakshow
Erik Bedard
leecemark

ALL PLAYERS LISTED, ALPHABETICALLY (#1 to 100)
9 Aaron, Hank* 1 Alexander, Pete* 3 Anson, Cap* 3 Bagwell, Jeff+ 5 Baker, Frank*
6 Banks, Ernie* 2 Bench, Johnny* 2 Berra, Yogi* 4 Biggio, Craig+ 1 Blyleven, Bert
5 Boggs, Wade* 7 Bonds, Barry+ 5 Brett, George* 3 Brouthers, Dan* 2 Campanella, Roy*
4 Carew, Rod* 1 Carlton, Steve* 2 Carter, Gary* 8 Charleston, Oscar* 1 Clemens, Roger+
9 Clemente, Rob* 8 Cobb, Ty* 2 Cochrane, Mickey* 4 Collins, Eddie* 3 Connor, Roger*
9 Crawford, Sam* 7 Delahanty, Ed* 9 Dihigo, Martin* 8 DiMaggio, Joe* 2 Ewing, Buck*
1 Feller, Bob* 3 Foxx, Jimmie* 4 Frisch, Frankie* 3 Gehrig, Lou* 4 Gehringer, Charlie*
1 Gibson, Bob* 2 Gibson, Josh* 3 Greenberg, Hank* 8 Griffey, Jr, Ken# 1 Grove, Lefty*
9 Gwynn, Tony* 9 Heilmann, Harry* 7 Henderson, Rickey+ 4 Hornsby, Rogers* 1 Hubbell, Carl*
9 Jackson, Reg* 1 Johnson, Randy# 1 Johnson Walter* 5 Jones, Chipper# 9 Kaline, Al*
9 Kelly, King* 3 Killebrew, Harmon* 1 Koufax, Sandy* 4 Lajoie, Nap* 3 Leonard, Buck*
6 Lloyd, Pop* 1 Maddux, Greg# 8 Mantle, Mickey* 1 Martinez, Pedro# 5 Mathews, Eddie*
1 Mathewson, Chr*8 Mays, Willie* 3 McCovey, Willie* 3 Mize, Johnny* 4 Morgan, Joe*
3 Murray, Eddie* 7 Musial, Stan* 1 Nichols, Kid* 9 Ott, Mel* 1 Paige, Satchel*
1 Palmer, Jim* 2 Piazza, Mike+ 1 Plank, Ed* 7 Raines, Tim 6 Ripken, Cal*
1 Roberts, Robin*9 Robinson, Frank* 4 Robinson, Jackie* 6 Rodriguez, Alex# 2 Rodriguez, Ivan#
9 Rose, Pete+ 9 Ruth, Babe* 1 Ryan, Nolan* 5 Schmidt, Mike* 1 Seaver, Tom*
8 Snider, Duke* 1 Spahn, Warren* 8 Speaker, Tris* 8 Stearnes, Turkey* 3 Thomas, Frank#
8 Torriente, Cri*6 Vaughan, Arky* 6 Wagner, Honus* 9 Waner, Paul* 1 Williams, Joe*
7 Williams, Ted* 6 Wright, George* 7 Yastrzemski, Carl* 1 Young, Cy* 6 Yount, Robin*
(#101-200)3 Allen, Dick 2 Alomar, Roberto+ 6 Appling, Luke* 8 Ashburn, Richie* 4 Barnes, Ross
8 Bell, Cool Pa* 6 Boudreau, Lou* 1 Brown, Mordecai* 7 Burkett, Jesse* 8 Carey, Max*
3 Cepeda, Orlan* 7 Clarke, Fred* 1 Clarkson, John* 5 Collins, Jimmy* 1 Coveleski, Stan*
6 Cronin, Joe* 6 Dahlen, Bill 6 Davis, George* 3 Delgado, Carlos# 2 Dickey, Bill*
8 Doby, Larry* 1 Drysdale, Don* 1 Eckersley, Dennis* 5 Evans, Darrell 1 Fingers, Rollie*
2 Fisk, Carlton* 1 Ford, Whitey* 1 Foster, Rube* 1 Glavine, Tom# 4 Gordon, Joe
7 Goslin, Goose* 1 Gossage, Rich* 4 Grich, Bobby 9 Guerrero, Vlad# 8 Hamilton, Billy*
2 Hartnett, Gab* 4 Herman, Billy* 8 Hines, Paul 9 Jackson, Joe+ 1 Jenkins, Fergie*
6 Jeter, Derek# 1 Keefe, Tim* 9 Keeler, Willie* 4 Kent, Jeff# 6 Larkin, Barry+
7 Magee, Sherry 1 Marichal, Juan* 5 Martinez, Edgar+ 3 McGriff, Fred+ 3 McGwire, Mark
7 Medwick, Joe* 7 Minoso, Minnie 5 Molitor, Paul* 1 Mussina, Mike# 1 Newhouser, Hal*
1 Niekro, Phil* 8 O’Rourke, Jim* 3 Palmeiro, Rafael+ 1 Perry, Gaylord* 8 Puckett, Kirby*
3 Pujols, Albert#1 Radbourn, Charley* 9 Ramirez, Manny# 6 Reese, Pee Wee* 1 Rivera, Mariano#
5 Robinson, Bro* 1 Rogan, Joe* 1 Ruffing, Red* 1 Rusie, Amos* 4 Sandberg, Ryne*
5 Santo, Ron 2 Santop, Louis* 1 Schilling, Curt+ 9 Sheffield, Gary# 7 Simmons, Al*
2 Simmons, Ted 9 Slaughter, Enos* 6 Smith, Ozzie* 1 Smoltz, John# 9 Sosa, Sammy+
7 Stargell, Will*3 Start, Joe 3 Suttles, Mule* 1 Sutton, Don* 3 Thome, Jim#
9 Thompson, Sam* 2 Torre, Joe 6 Trammell, Alan 1 Vance, Dazzy* 1 Waddell, Rube*
1 Walsh, Ed* 6 Wells, Willie* 7 Wheat, Zack* 4 Whitaker, Lou 2 White, Deacon
1 Wilhelm, Hoyt* 7 Williams, Billy* 5 Wilson, Jud* 9 Winfield, Dave* 1 Wynn, Early*
(#201-300)
6 Aparicio, Luis* - 8 Averill, Earl* - 5 Beckwith, John - 7 Belle, Albert - 2 Bennett, Charlie
9 Bonds, Bobby - 5 Boyer, Ken - 2 Bresnahan, Roger* - 1 Bridges, Tommy - 7 Brock, Lou*
1 Brown, Kevin+ - 1 Brown, Ray* - 8 Brown, Willard* - 8 Browning, Pete - 1 Bunning, Jim*
9 Canseco, Jose - 1 Caruthers, Bob - 3 Chance, Frank* - 3 Clark, Will - 9 Cravath, Gavy
5 Dandridge, Ray* - 8 Dawson, Andre - 1 Dean, Dizzy* - 4 Doerr, Bobby* - 4 Doyle, Larry
8 Duffy, Hugh* - 8 Edmonds, Jim# - 5 Elliott, Bob - 9 Evans, Dwight - 1 Faber, Red*
1 Ferrell, Wes - 9 Flick, Elmer* - 1 Foster, Bill* - 4 Fox, Nellie* - 2 Freehan, Bill
1 Galvin, Pud* - 6 Glasscock, Jack - 8 Gore, George - 4 Grant, Frank* - 1 Griffith, Clark*
1 Grimes, Burleigh* - 5 Groh, Heinie - 5 Hack, Stan - 3 Helton, Todd# - 3 Hernandez, Keith
8 Hill, Pete* - 1 Hoffman, Trevor# - 7 Irvin, Monte* - 6 Jennings, Hughie* - 6 Johnson, Homerun
7 Kelley, Joe* - 7 Kiner, Ralph* - 9 Klein, Chuck* - 5 Leach, Tommy - 1 Lemon, Bob*
2 Lombardi, Ernie* - 1 Lyons, Ted* - 2 Mackey, Biz* - 6 Maranville, Rabbit* - 1 Mays, Carl
1 McCormick, Jim - 1 McGinnity, Joe* - 4 McPhee, Bid* - 2 McVey, Cal - 1 Mendez, Jose*
6 Moore, Dobie - 2 Munson, Thurman - 8 Murphy, Dale - 5 Nettles, Graig - 8 Oms, Alejandro
9 Parker, Dave - 6 Pearce, Dickey - 3 Perez, Tony* - 1 Quisenberry, Dan - 7 Rice, Jim
4 Richardson, Hardy - 1 Rixey, Eppa* - 5 Rolen, Scott# - 8 Roush, Edd* - 1 Santana, Johan#
4 Schoendienst, Red* - 6 Sewell, Joe* - 3 Sisler, George* - 9 Smith, Reggie - 1 Spalding, Al*
6 Stephens, Vern - 7 Stovey, Harry - 1 Sutter, Bruce* - 5 Sutton, Ezra - 9 Suzuki, Ichiro#
3 Terry, Bill* - 5 Traynor, Pie* - 8 Van Haltren, George - 9 Walker, Larry+ - 6 Wallace, Bobby*
6 Ward, John* - 8 Williams, Bernie+ - 1 Willis, Vic* - 8 Wilson, Hack* - 8 Wynn, Jimmy
(#301-400)
9 Arlett, Buzz - 5 Bando, Sal - 3 Beckley, Jake* - 5 Bell, Buddy - 1 Bender, Chief*
8 Berger, Wally - 1 Bond, Tommy - 3 Bottomley, Jim* - 3 Cash, Norm - 5 Cey, Ron
4 Childs, Cupid - 9 Colavito, Rocky - 6 Concepcion, Dave - 1 Cone, David - 2 Cooper, Walker
1 Cooper, Wilbur - 1 Creighton, Jim - 5 Cross, Lave - 9 Cuyler, Kiki* - 1 Day, Leon*
4 Dunlap, Fred - 4 Evers, Johnny* - 1 Franco, John+ - 6 Garciaparra, Nomar# - 3 Garvey, Steve
3 Giambi, Jason# - 1 Gomez, Lefty* - 9 Gonzalez, Juan - 1 Guidry, Ron - 3 Hodges, Gil
2 Howard, Elston - 1 Hunter, Catfish* - 1 John, Tommy - 7 Johnson, Bob - 7 Jones, Charley
8 Jones, Fielder - 1 Joss, Addie* - 1 Kaat, Jim - 5 Kell, George* - 7 Keller, Charlie
4 Lazzeri, Tony* - 8 Lofton, Kenny+ - 6 Long, Herman - 6 Lundy, Dick - 1 Luque, Dolf
8 Lynn, Fred - 7 Manush, Heinie* - 3 Mattingly, Don - 4 Mazeroski, Bill* - 4 McAuliffe, Dick
5 McGraw, John* - 2 McGuire, Deacon - 1 Morris, Jack - 1 Mullane, Tony - 4 Myer, Buddy
1 Newcombe, Don - 7 O'Doul, Lefty - 3 Olerud, John+ - 9 Oliva, Tony - 8 Oliver, Al
7 O'Neill, Tip - 2 Parrish, Lance - 1 Pennock, Herb* - 6 Pesky, Johnny - 1 Pierce, Billy
8 Pike, Lip - 8 Pinson, Vada - 2 Posada, Jorge# - 3 Powell, Boog - 4 Pratt, Del
4 Randolph, Willie - 1 Redding, Dick - 1 Reuschel, Rick - 9 Rice, Sam* - 6 Rizzuto, Phil*
5 Rosen, Al - 8 Ryan, Jimmy - 1 Saberhagen, Bret - 2 Schalk, Ray* - 2 Schang, Wally
7 Sheckard, Jimmy - 1 Shocker, Urban - 9 Singleton, Ken - 1 Smith, Hilton* - 1 Smith, Lee
9 Staub, Rusty - 1 Stieb, Dave - 3 Taylor, Ben* - 1 Tekulve, Kent - 2 Tenace, Gene
1 Tiant, Luis - 2 Trouppe, Quincy - 7 Veach, Bobby - 5 Ventura, Robin+ - 3 Vernon, Mickey
1 Wagner, Billy# - 1 Walters, Bucky - 1 Warneke, Lon - 1 Welch, Mickey* - 5 Williams, Matt
(#401-500)
9 Abreu, Bobby#
1 Adams, Babe
1 Appier, Kevin
9 Baines, Harold
6 Bancroft, Dave*
7 Berkman, Lance#
1 Blue, Vida
3 Bonilla, Bobby
2 Boone, Bob
1 Brecheen, Harry
7 Burns, George J.
8 Butler, Brett
3 Camilli, Dolph
6 Campaneris, Bert
7 Carter, Joe
8 Cedeno, Cesar
1 Cicotte, Eddie+
9 Clark, Jack
5 Clarkson, Bus
1 Cooper, Andy*
7 Cruz, Jose
6 Dark, Alvin
2 Daulton, Darren
8 DiMaggio, Dom
3 Easter, Luke
2 Farrell, Duke
6 Fernandez, Tony
1 Finley, Chuck
7 Foster, George
3 Fournier, Jack
4 Franco, Julio+
6 Fregosi, Jim
5 Gaetti, Gary
3 Galarraga, Andres+
5 Gardner, Larry
9 Giles, Brian#
4 Gilliam, Jim
7 Gonzalez, Luis#
3 Grace, Mark
1 Hahn, Noodles
1 Halladay, Roy#
5 Harrah, Toby
1 Henke, Tom
9 Herman, Babe
1 Hershiser, Orel
1 Hiller, John
9 Hooper, Harry*
7 Howard, Frank
8 Hoy, Dummy
1 Hoyt, Waite*
1 Jackman, Bill
8 Jones, Andruw#
8 Kauff, Benny
1 King, Silver
2 Kling, Johnny
4 Knoblauch, Chuck
3 Konetchy, Ed
1 Koosman, Jerry
1 Leonard, Dutch
1 Lolich, Mickey
4 Lopes, Davey
1 Lyle, Sparky
5 Madlock, Bill
1 Marberry, Firpo
5 Marcelle, Ollie
9 Maris, Roger
5 Meyerle, Levi
4 Monroe, Bill
9 Murcer, Bobby
9 O'Neill, Paul
3 Ortiz, David#
1 Oswalt, Roy#
8 Otis, Amos
4 Phillips, Tony
8 Poles, Spot
2 Porter, Darrell
1 Quinn, Jack
2 Radcliffe, Ted
1 Reynolds, Allie
4 Smith, Chino
9 Strawberry, Darryl
2 Sundberg, Jim
1 Tanana, Frank
6 Tejada, Miguel#
8 Thomas, Roy
9 Tiernan, Mike
6 Tinker, Joe*
1 Trout, Dizzy
1 Trucks, Virgil
1 Vaughn, Hippo
6 Vizquel, Omar#
1 Webb, Brandon#
1 Wetteland, John
4 White, Frank
8 Williams, Cy
7 Williams, Ken
5 Williamson, Ned
6 Wills, Maury
1 Wood, Joe
5 Yost, Eddie

* = hall of famer
# = active in 2008
+ = ineligible for HOF

[BlueBlood]

1. Babe Ruth

Classic is now on the clock

[Brad Harris]

Since we're supposed to wait an hour to encourage discussion, here's what my thoughts are regarding the best ever at each position:

C - Bench
1B - Gehrig
2B - Collins/Hornsby
3B - Schmidt
SS - Wagner
LF - Bonds
CF - Cobb
RF - Ruth
P - Clemens

So who's #2 overall? I've got three candidates: Bonds, Cobb and Wagner. I've argued for Wagner over Cobb before, but I just don't think so now which really leaves Cobb vs. Bonds. At this level, the tiniest thing can move someone down up or down the board. Bonds' steroid use (though I don't count against him for HOF purposes) is a factor in determining whether he was really greater than Cobb. And, unfortunately for Barry, I've got to give Cobb the nod because of it.

So that puts Cobb at #2. Is he really more deserving than Ruth of #1 though? I'm leaning towards "no" but it's awfully close. Ruth's pitching resume is just a huge plus in determining talent/production from each and they were close enough as contemporaries that I'm not going to give Cobb a mental break here because he didn't play in the 20s until he was later on in years.

On the other hand, Cobb was largely hailed as the better player back when both players were still living. How much of the difference between these two is actual value versus perceived value and how much is the difference between the two types of games they played? I dunno, but I've got a little less than an hour to figure it out. :laugh

[BlueBlood]

No! I demand a re-rank already. Cobb has an easy Top Ten argument, and a very credible Top 5 argument, but not Top 2. Better than Wagner? Better than Mays? I also think Josh Gibson and Ted Williams aren't stretches for that spot. Frankly, I'd put Cobb at about fourth. Mays & Wagner are absolutely better in my eyes.

[Freakshow]

For this first round, we'll waive the one hour wait requirement, just to get things going. However, after the first rotation, Gamers are expected to wait at least an hour (57 minutes, actually) after the previous turn.

[Brad Harris]

Oh to heck with it...

1. Ty Cobb (sorry, I had to remove Ruth - 1st time)

dgarza is now on the clock

[Erik Bedard]

I can see Wagner, but I personally have Cobb #2. So you won't see a removal from me.

EDIT: Well, now I'll have to reinstate Ruth if dgarza doesn't.

[BlueBlood]

Ok, so Classic posted Cobb before he was supposed to. Then I responded that I didn't agree with Ty at #2. Then Classic was allowed to re-post his pick in order to get things going in the first round, removed Ruth, and placed Cobb at the top. This project is off to a :banghead: start.

Classic, what made you want to buck the consensus?

[Freakshow]

Personally, I usually rank Mays #2 over Wagner and Cobb, due to league quality issues. Another strike against Cobb is that, using HOF criteria he suffers in the character and leadership sorts of areas.

[BlueBlood]

Considering how this project works, Cobb may end up lower now than Classic intended. Surely, the next guy (dgarza) will chuck Ruth at the top. Then, if the next person doesn't put Cobb at #2, Classic potentially ends up having wasted his pick. There's definitely a strategy to this in order to have at least some things go your way, if not all.

If it's of any use, here's my position bests:

C - Gibson
1B - Gehrig
2B - Hornsby
SS - Wagner
3B - Schmidt
RF - Ruth
CF - Mays
LF - T Williams
P - W Johnson

Oh, and Erik, you need to check your PMs. Very important.

[Freakshow]

I can see Wagner, but I personally have Cobb #2. So you won't see a removal from me.

EDIT: Well, now I'll have to reinstate Ruth if dgarza doesn't.
dgarza's options:
1 - Add a player at #2 after Cobb
2 - Reinstate Ruth at #2 and add another player at #3
3 - Remove Cobb and put another player in his place at #1

[Erik Bedard]

Let's say dgarza puts Ruth in at #2. Can I remove Cobb from #1 and put in Cobb at #2?

[dgarza]

So what about this :

In actual play, I would hope that the Remove option would only be used for players you think are listed significantly early, and not to replace guys you have coming up soon in your queue anyway. See the introductory thread for an example of the sequence of play.

Ruth has already been planned to be removed, but it's not like he's significantly early at #1.

[Brad Harris]

Another strike against Cobb is that, using HOF criteria he suffers in the character and leadership sorts of areas.
That sure didn't play out in the BBWAA voting in 1936 when Cobb received more votes than Ruth. Surely those voters were in a better position to observe and possess first-hand knowledge of both players than we are. I have a very strong impression that the majority of observers who watched both men play picked Cobb over Ruth as the greatest they ever saw.

And whatever "character" or "leadership" - two very broadly defined terms so far as the HOF is concerned - issues Cobb had, they certainly weren't felt to be hindrances to his team's success. Cobb was hired to manage the Tigers at the age of 34! No less a gentleman than Connie Mack hired Ty Cobb to help turn his A's back into contenders in 1927-28 before Cobb finally hung up his spikes for good. Fans erupted in effusive praise for Cobb in his first game in Detroit after signing with Philadelphia. These don't seem like the kinds of things you'd expect of someone with "character" and "leadership" problems.

Furthermore, I think Cobb brought an element of intimidation to his opponents that is very likely unmatched in influence in baseball history.

Perhaps it boils down to me preferring the kind of game Cobb played over the kind Ruth brought to baseball, but in the end, I feel better going with Cobb, regardless of what subsequent players decide to do. :)

[BlueBlood]

dgarza, different standards should apply early in the game, particularly for the Top 10. I think Freakshow's talking more about the difference between a player being #260 or #270....not much of a difference, as long as we're making the right sort of groupings around that point. As I predicted in the startup thread, the earliest rounds will have a lot of re-ranking whereas people won't care much later on unless a pick is absolutely absurd.

[dgarza]

I would like to request to have the rules/schedule/etc stickied

so that we don't have to dig them out

[dgarza]

1. Babe Ruth (sorry, I had to remove Cobb - 1st time)

Erik Bedard is on the clock

[dgarza]

Maybe we'll only get 2 players listed at the end of Round 1.:dance
????

[Erik Bedard]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb

Freakshow is now on the clock

[Freakshow]

Let's say dgarza puts Ruth in at #2. Can I remove Cobb from #1 and put in Cobb at #2?
Reading the rules literally, nothing says that the guy you add can't be the one you just removed. So, yes, that would be allowed.

Oh, and Classic is playing by the rules. If he thinks Cobb is #1, well that's not really such an isolated point of view. It's up to the following Gamers to let that stand, or not.

OTOH, unless Classic thinks Ruth was seriously overranked, he should not have replaced him. As I wrote in the lead thread:

we should maintain a spirit of cooperation. We’re working together to produce the very best rankings that we can.

[dgarza]

Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think

[Freakshow]

One more thing we should do in this first round, since the posts and edits are flying hot and fast:

When you post your turn, Quote the previous turn.

Thank you.

[leecemark]

--I suggest that removals of Ruth from the #1 spot are pretty much a waste of time. I agree that there are several other very reasonable choices for the best ever, but there is such a strong consenus for him there that removing him will, for practical purposes, only get the project off to a slow start. I'd say that in the early going removals might be best used if you think someone is overrated by at least 5 spots. As we progress then that might drop to 10 or even 20 as the difference are smaller and the rank matters less (is say 62 really more prestigous than 75 or 150 more than 170?).

[Freakshow]

Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think
Edit post #17 with your turn.

Then, if that changes Erik's turn, he can edit #19.

[dgarza]

Stop the clock ...I messed up...I think

Never mind...I didn't mess up...I reposted my old post. What I did was within rules. i just need to get used to how the options work.
If I had reinstated, Cobb would have still been #1, and I wanted Ruth #1.

Sorry

Everything should still be the same

[Freakshow]

--I suggest that removals of Ruth from the #1 spot are pretty much a waste of time. I agree that there are several other very reasonable choices for the best ever, but there is such a strong consenus for him there that removing him will, for practical purposes, only get the project off to a slow start. I'd say that in the early going removals might be best used if you think someone is overrated by at least 5 spots. As we progress then that might drop to 10 or even 20 as the difference are smaller and the rank matters less (is say 62 really more prestigous than 75 or 150 more than 170?).
Yes, that's exactly how I hoped the Game would go.

[BlueBlood]

--I suggest that removals of Ruth from the #1 spot are pretty much a waste of time. I'd say that in the early going removals might be best used if you think someone is overrated by at least 5 spots.

Except for the first five spots. There's kind of a brick wall there. If someone lists a guy sixth that I rank tenth, I'll probably let it slide. But the top of this thing is way different. There's like five guys that will end up in the Top 5 of 80% of these sort of projects so ranking them correctly in your own eyes is very important.

[Erik Bedard]

Just to make sure it didn't get lost:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb

Freakshow is OTC.

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb

Freakshow is now on the clock
Even though I think Mays should be ahead of Cobb, it's not a big enough difference to make me Remove him. Ruth is now safe.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays

jjpm74 is now on the clock

[Brad Harris]

You guys mean...I'm...not...in trouble? :hide:

[Erik Bedard]

It would've been so more fun if you hadn't wasted two people's turns, but I for one don't hate you. I'll let BlueBlood speak for himself.

[jjpm74]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner (I actually think he should be ahead of Mays and Cobb)

John Shoemaker is on the clock

I suggest we have a thread just for the list and a thread for discussion. The back and forth over Ruth and Cobb had me completely lost.

[Brad Harris]

It would've been so more fun if you hadn't wasted two people's turns, but I for one don't hate you. I'll let BlueBlood speak for himself.

Ah, but is it really a waste if I think Cobb is greater than Ruth? I might as easily have said BlueBlood wasted my turn by him picking Ruth #1?

[Freakshow]

I suggest we have a thread just for the list and a thread for discussion. The back and forth over Ruth and Cobb had me completely lost.
I think it's better to have it all in one place. To me, the ranking and discussion are inextricable - the point of the ranking is to spur discussion! Discussions taken outside won't be seen by everyone.

The discussion will ebb and flow, sometimes a lot, sometimes very little. Soon, the official turns will be very obvious as the list increases in length. For now, if posters make sure to end their turn with the "on the clock" statement at the very bottom, it will be easy to see which posts are official turns when scanning over the thread.

[BlueBlood]

4. Honus Wagner (I actually think he should be ahead of Mays and Cobb)

Why not pull a re-rank? This is the top of the list for cryin' out loud. We might as well get the Top Ten that best passes through this game's format, then start giving more leeway after. I really don't care if Joe Morgan's at #25 instead of #21 or #30....as long as it's reasonable. I just do really care about the top.

[jjpm74]

Why not pull a re-rank? This is the top of the list for cryin' out loud. We might as well get the Top Ten that best passes through this game's format, then start giving more leeway after. I really don't care if Joe Morgan's at #25 instead of #21 or #30....as long as it's reasonable. I just do really care about the top.

Because I don't feel that strongly about strict ranking when I think we have our top 4. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and Mays are my top 4. The only difference for me is that I would rank them Ruth, Wagner, Mays, Cobb.

[Freakshow]

Because I don't feel that strongly about strict ranking when I think we have our top 4. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and Mays are my top 4. The only difference for me is that I would rank them Ruth, Wagner, Mays, Cobb.
Right. This Game isn't really gonna nail players accurately; other formats are better for that. Getting players in the right range is about what we're aiming for. It bogs down if people get too persnickety. Again, it's as much about the discussion as the rankings.

I can see myself getting more concerned as we near various milestones, top 25, 50, 100, 150, 200. Does he really belong in the Top 50, something along those lines. And I'd like to have really good Top 200, Top 300, Top 500, Top 1000 lists to reference in the future.

[jjpm74]

I can see myself getting more concerned as we near various milestones, top 25, 50, 100, 150, 200. Does he really belong in the Top 50, something along those lines. And I'd like to have really good Top 200, Top 300, Top 500, Top 1000 lists to reference in the future.

#234 will also be significant.

[Brad Harris]

#234 will also be significant.
Everyone knows the answer to life, the universe and everything is #42. ;)

[Freakshow]

#234 will also be significant.
Yes, but not really. While that is literally the number of players currently in the HOF, by one way of counting, in order to make an apples to apples comparison we'll have to deduct from our list the active players and ineligible players. So at the point we "match" the HOF we'll probably be somewhere in the 260's.

[leecemark]

--I don't know that there is an exact umber of Hall of Famers anyway. There are probably a 100 or so guys that virtually everyone agrees belong. Then maybe 75 more who would be rejected only by small hall advocates and a few people with unusual evaluation techniques. Then probably as many more who have their advocates - be that a majority or a super majority (in which case they are probably in) or just a handfull of vocal advocates. There is a huge gray area on the margins of the Hall. The real problem is that they are a few players in that top 175 who have not been inducted and a few outside that 350 who have.

[jjpm74]

Yes, but not really. While that is literally the number of players currently in the HOF, by one way of counting, inorder to make an apples to apples comparison we'll have to deduct from our list the active players and ineligible players. So at the point we "match" the HOF we'll probably by somewhere in the 260's.

Yes, but I think most would agree that there isn't a big leap from the bottom 40 of the HOF and the top 40 not in the HOF due to various eligibility issues. Even in a project like this where we are including all ball players, I think we'll be well into gray area HOF territory by the time we get into the 230s.

[John Shoemaker]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Barry Bonds

leecemark is now on the clock

[leecemark]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Barry Bonds
6. Hank Aaron
--Windy City Fan is now on the clock

[jjpm74]

Are we including pitchers in this project? The reason I ask is that I've never attempted to compare pitchers to position players.

[dgarza]

Are we including pitchers in this project? The reason I ask is that I've never attempted to compare pitchers to position players.

I assumed we were, and am all set to.

[Freakshow]

Are we including pitchers in this project? The reason I ask is that I've never attempted to compare pitchers to position players.
Yes, of course; pitchers are players, too. Refer to other all-time lists to see how they have slotted pitchers.

[Freakshow]

Just to note, I wrote this in the first post:

A brief justification for your player is a good thing to include

Maybe also include who else you considered listing. Not required, of course.

[Yankeefan94]

Hank Aaron is definitely not the sixth best player ever. He was consistent, but not the sixth greatest player ever. I will probably remove him on my turn if windy city fan doesn't.

[Yankeefan94]

P.S My position bests
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Rogers Hornsby, the greatest cardinal ever
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Honus Wagner
LF Ted Williams/Barry Bonds
CF Ty Cobb (Willie Mays is a close second)
RF Babe Ruth
P Walter Johnson

[Freakshow]

Hank Aaron is definitely not the sixth best player ever. He was consistent, but not the sixth greatest player ever. I will probably remove him on my turn if windy city fan doesn't.
I would probably go with Ted Williams, considering war credit. However, if you're interested in total value, Aaron's not a bad choice. I think he gets high marks for character, as well as having had some impact on the game off the field, I would leave him, he's top 10 easily. But that's just me.

[John Shoemaker]

I had a tough time deciding between Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron when I made my choice for number 5. I went with Barry as the number 5 player but I'm glad leecemark picked Hank at number 6. If it were me I would leave him at number 6.

[Paul Wendt]

At this point I probably wouldn't undo Cy Young, Walter Johnson, or Roger Clemens.

Matty, Lou Gehrig, or Tom Seaver would set me grumbling about New York.

[jjpm74]

Windy city fan's been on the clock for 20 hours. To expedite this in the early rounds, why don't we go to a 6 hour clock and if the person doesn't post within that time frame they lose their turn. I personally don't care if I end up being skipped due to a shorter clock and would rather see this move along at least in the early rounds. The 24 hour clock has the potential to make this project really drag, IMO.

[Freakshow]

Windy city fan's been on the clock for 20 hours. To expedite this in the early rounds, why don't we go to a 6 hour clock and if the person doesn't post within that time frame they lose their turn. I personally don't care if I end up being skipped due to a shorter clock and would rather see this move along at least in the early rounds. The 24 hour clock has the potential to make this project really drag, IMO.
I can see where it's tougher for some on weekends. That being said, WCF signed up for the project, so one would hope he's keeping tabs.

I suggested earlier that the person after him, Yankeefan94, should send WCF a message in the waning hours of his clock; hopefully he's done that and has his turn all ready to go.

Remember, after Yankeefan94's turn we'll go the the hour delay between turns, unless there is general disagreement with that among the electorate. I'm pretty flexible and will try to conduct the Game in a way that's agreeable to the majority of Gamers.

Finally, I prefer this Game to proceed at a liesurely pace. If that means I'm getting only two or three turns in a week for myself, it doesn't bother me. Again, this Game could continue for years. We have, what, 18,000 players we could rank between MLB and Negro leagues?:faint:

[Yankeefan94]

I sent a message to Windy City Fan and told him to post by 6 pm EST.

[Yankeefan94]

P.S
Maybe we should shorten the required between posts, andthe amount of clock time a person gets, but allow more unexcused absences.

[Freakshow]

P.S
Maybe we should shorten the required between posts, andthe amount of clock time a person gets, but allow more unexcused absences.
We could do that. How about:

Shorten post delay from one hour to a half an hour?
Shorten clock maximum from 24 to 18 hours?
Increase unexcused absences from two to four?

What say others?

[jjpm74]

Leisurely is fine as long as we don't end up going 3-4 days without a pick like we did on several occasions with the SOC draft.

[dgarza]

Shorten post delay from one hour to a half an hour?
Either way is fine.

Shorten clock maximum from 24 to 18 hours?
24 hours is easier to remember and keep track of. Plus it allows for all our different schedules. 18 hours is too odd of a time span. If this is meant to be ran rather leisurely, let's keep the time element simple and leisurely as well.

Increase unexcused absences from two to four?

I don't think we have to change this either. But it's not much of an issue either way.

[dgarza]

Leisurely is fine as long as we don't end up going 3-4 days without a pick like we did on several occasions with the SOC draft.
The rules would not allow it to run that leisurely. The longest we should have without a pick is just over 24 hours.

[jjpm74]

The rules would not allow it to run that leisurely. The longest we should have without a pick is just over 24 hours.

We had the same rules in place in the SOC draft. Some people kept forgetting to remind others when it was their turn then the next person would be reluctant to go in place of the person who missed their turn and it started getting messy.

[Yankeefan94]

Should we skip Windy City Fan?? I guess so, so I'll go.

Originally posted by leecemark
1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Barry Bonds
6. Hank Aaron

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Barry Bonds
6. Ted Williams (Sorry, I had to remove Hank Aaron, 1st time.)

Blueblood is now on the clock

[dgarza]

6. Ted Williams (Sorry, I had to remove Hank Aaron, 1st time.)


Gotta agree with this move. After all, I have Williams at #3.

[Freakshow]

We had the same rules in place in the SOC draft. Some people kept forgetting to remind others when it was their turn then the next person would be reluctant to go in place of the person who missed their turn and it started getting messy.
Not quite the same rules. In the SOC draft we didn't want people to totally miss a pick, as their team would be kinda screwed, so everyone felt they had to slow down until the missing guy picked. We even had picks done by proxy.

Here, we don't care, you miss a turn, it's gone, we move on, no harm done.

[BlueBlood]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Josh Gibson - Removed Barry Bonds, first time.

Classic is now on the clock.

[Freakshow]

Just to note, I wrote this in the first post:

A brief justification for your player is a good thing to include

Maybe also include who else you considered listing. Not required, of course.
Gibson strikes me as a rather curious selection this early. Any clue as to why?

[Yankeefan94]

It looks like we will probably get 4 or 5 players in per round the rate we're going

[jjpm74]

Gibson over Charleston? Bonds, Aaron, W. Johnson have stronger cases for the top 10 than Gibson.

[leecemark]

--Six does seem high for Gibson. I do have him over Charleston for best Negro Leaguer and would have no problem with him stickign in the top 10 though. Maybe the best hitter in the history of the Negro Leagues and at least a solid defensive catcher. Thats a pretty impressive candidate.

[BlueBlood]

I have Gibson best at catcher and in the top ten. Part of me think he edges out Mantle, Gehrig, and a few others. Part of me also wanted to go with Walter Johnson or Hank Aaron although I didn't want to do the latter because it had already been done...

I can't in good conscience not knock down Bonds. Sorry. If it had been Aaron, Mantle, Johnson, etc. I'd have kept it the same.

[Freakshow]

I have Gibson best at catcher and in the top ten. Part of me think he edges out Mantle, Gehrig, and a few others. Part of me also wanted to go with Walter Johnson or Hank Aaron although I didn't want to do the latter because it had already been done...

I can't in good conscience not knock down Bonds. Sorry. If it had been Aaron, Mantle, Johnson, etc. I'd have kept it the same.
OK, but I think you also need to consider whether your choice is likely to fly in the face of the consensus. We all have our idiosyncratic favorites, but this Game isn't really the place to try and wedge them in - it's designed to reject unusual placements.

[jjpm74]

Bill Burgess's best player project just elected Gibson as 16th best. While I don;t think he's necessarily that low, I don't think he's top 10.

[dgarza]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Josh Gibson - Removed Barry Bonds, first time.

Classic is now on the clock.

Classic's time is up.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Rogers Hornsby - (removed Josh Gibson - 1st time)

I can't rank Josh that high.

Erik Bedard is on the clock.

[BlueBlood]

So, Gibson, whom a lot of us consider to be the best catcher was replaced with a guy that about half of us (including myself) consider to be the best 2B.

Hornsby has way less of a top ten case if you ask me. I'd prepare for another removal...

[Erik Bedard]

Classic's time is up.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Rogers Hornsby - (removed Josh Gibson - 1st time)

I can't rank Josh that high.

Erik Bedard is on the clock.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Mickey Mantle

Tough choice for me between Mantle, Aaron, and Gehrig. I think Hornsby is a little high, but it's not so egregious that I'm going to remove it.

I just noticed that aside from Hornsby, our top seven is identical to Bill's Greatest Player project. Weird.

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Rogers Hornsby
7. Mickey Mantle

I hate to remove guys. But Hornsby #6? If he was even #8 I could let it go. But I can't leave a guy that high who I don't have in the top ten. Mantle is a little high too, not quite as bad, though. Now who should I add, Aaron or Bonds?

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron (sorry, I had to remove Rogers Hornsby - 1st time)

jjpm74 is on the clock

[leecemark]

--Well done, Freakshow! We may be awhile getting through the top 10 though:cap:.

[Brad Harris]

Sorry I missed my turn. Out of town yesterday. Can I pick now? Do I just wait until my next turn in the rotation?

[Freakshow]

--Well done, Freakshow! We may be awhile getting through the top 10 though:cap:.
Thanks. Yeah I think we're still working out the kinks, getting into a flow.

It's all good. Our aim is to "get it right"; we have forever to "get it done".

I'm thinking of reordering the list for the next round. Any objections?

[Freakshow]

Sorry I missed my turn. Out of town yesterday. Can I pick now? Do I just wait until my next turn in the rotation?
From the rules, under Unexcused Absence: Gamer X will be placed at the end of the round, if he requests to stay in the game;

So your turn will be at the end of this round, after Yankeefan94. I changed the rotation in post #1 to reflect this. I also changed it to three unexcused absences before you're out of the game. Again, if you know you're going to be away and might miss your turn, let us know and you'll be excused.

[dgarza]

Thanks. Yeah I think we're still working out the kinks, getting into a flow.

It's all good. Our aim is to "get it right"; we have forever to "get it done".

I'm thinking of reordering the list for the next round. Any objections?

I would wait to change the order until we get our flow down.
If we are still snagging a little with the current order, changing it up now won't help.

[Brad Harris]

From the rules, under Unexcused Absence: Gamer X will be placed at the end of the round, if he requests to stay in the game;

So your turn will be at the end of this round, after Yankeefan94. I changed the rotation in post #1 to reflect this. I also changed it to three unexcused absences before you're out of the game. Again, if you know you're going to be away and might miss your turn, let us know and you'll be excused.

My bad. For the record: I am requesting to stay in the game. :bowdown:

[jjpm74]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson

John Shoemaker is on the clock

[jjpm74]

I'm thinking of reordering the list for the next round. Any objections?

Whenever you do, please post the new order at the beginning and end of the thread.

[Freakshow]

Whenever you do, please post the new order at the beginning and end of the thread.
Thanks. Good suggestion.
I would wait to change the order until we get our flow down.
If we are still snagging a little with the current order, changing it up now won't help.
My thinking is, it may be the current order that's partly at fault for the snagging.

[dgarza]

My thinking is, it may be the current order that's partly at fault for the snagging.
I'm curious to know how any one order would be better or worse than any other? Is it a time zone thing?

[dgarza]

8. Walter Johnson

I ususally don't have Johnson (or any pitcher) in my top 10, but I've often thought that my leaving them out of the top 10 is questionable.
If we're going to have a pitcher, it's got to be Johnson!

[jjpm74]

I ususally don't have Johnson (or any pitcher) in my top 10, but I've often thought that my leaving them out of the top 10 is questionable.
If we're going to have a pitcher, it's got to be Johnson!

I think if we're including pitchers, there should be at least 1 in the top 10. We'll see if the other participants in this project agree with that sentiment.

[Freakshow]

I'm curious to know how any one order would be better or worse than any other? Is it a time zone thing?
Each voter has his own system, his own ideas of where players should be ranked. Depending on who is following you in the voting has a lot of impact on the likelihood of your choice being stricken from the record. A different order would rearrange this dynamic, making it less (or more) likely for disagreements to occur.

I addressed another aspect of this issue in the introductory thread:

There is a potential pitfall in keeping the same order for each rotation. If you get a few like-minded voters bunched together, there may not be the desired check on questionable selections. Likewise, if you get a very different system following you, you may see every one of your selections Removed, which isn’t much fun. Re-randomizing the rotation would help alleviate these concerns

[henrich]

may I join? Sorry I've been gone a week, so I missed some great dialogue.

[John Shoemaker]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds

I would have liked to see Bonds a little higher but Aaron and Johnson were my next 2 choices so I didn't even consider removing either player. They are all in my top 10.

leecemark is now on the clock.

[Brad Harris]

I think if we're including pitchers, there should be at least 1 in the top 10. We'll see if the other participants in this project agree with that sentiment.

I have always Johnson in the #6-10 range overall.

[henrich]

I have always Johnson in the #6-10 range overall.


I have Johnson #1 overall if you consider Ruth's pitching numbers then Johnson falls to #2 to Ruth. Maybe I should have waited to post that until you said I could play:)

[Freakshow]

may I join? Sorry I've been gone a week, so I missed some great dialogue.
Welcome aboard! Your pick will be at the end of this round (rotation), after Classic. Here's the order for the rest of this round:

leecemark
Windy City Fan
Yankeefan94
Classic
henrich

If I don't reorder, this is the rotation for the third round:

BlueBlood
Classic
dgarza
Erik Bedard
Freakshow
jjpm74
John Shoemaker
leecemark
Windy City Fan
Yankeefan94
henrich

[henrich]

I'm stoked about this one. Should be fun.

[jjpm74]

If I don't reorder, this is the rotation for the third round:

BlueBlood
Classic
dgarza
Erik Bedard
Freakshow
jjpm74
John Shoemaker
leecemark
Windy City Fan
Yankeefan94
henrich

I think you should reorder every round if you have the time to do so for reasons you've already pointed out.

[Freakshow]

I have Johnson #1 overall if you consider Ruth's pitching numbers then Johnson falls to #2 to Ruth. Maybe I should have waited to post that until you said I could play:)
If you had put Johnson #2, I'm sure he wouldn't have stayed there. The group is showing little tolerance for oddball picks, which is how it should be (to some extent). If you've read through this thread you would know that, of course. In any case, it seems unlikely you'll have any opportunity to effect Johnson's placement.

[henrich]

If you had put Johnson #2, I'm sure he wouldn't have stayed there. The group is showing little tolerance for oddball picks, which is how it should be (to some extent). If you've read through this thread you would know that, of course. In any case, it seems unlikely you'll have any opportunity to affect Johnson's placement.

I wasn't looking to make waves, just my own convictions. In my opinion there was no one more dominant than Johnson. I measure dominance by shutouts and K's. His 112 shutouts are an unreal statistic, his 3500+k's are in an elite club. His lifetime E.R.A. of 2.16 is top 5 if memory serves. His 417 wins are 2nd to the Cy Young. He is the top pitcher, as stated earlier, how does one compare a pitcher and a hitter. I just value this pitcher greater than all of the other hitters. I would not consider this an oddball pick at all, just a different opinion.

[Freakshow]

I wasn't looking to make waves, just my own convictions. In my opinion there was no one more dominant than Johnson. I measure dominance by shutouts and K's. His 112 shutouts are an unreal statistic, his 3500+k's are in an elite club. His lifetime E.R.A. of 2.16 is top 5 if memory serves. His 417 wins are 2nd to the Cy Young. He is the top pitcher, as stated earlier, how does one compare a pitcher and a hitter. I just value this pitcher greater than all of the other hitters. I would not consider this an oddball pick at all, just a different opinion.
Certainly, you have every right to that evaluation. I was simply cautioning that it's far from a mainstream opinion to value pitching that much, and that if you listed Johnson in accordance with your conviction, it would likely be a waste.

In this Game, if you insist on listing an idiosyncratic choice you should have a strong case to accompany it and hope that the next two Gamers are like-minded with you.

[henrich]

Certainly, you have every right to that evaluation. I was simply cautioning that it's far from a mainstream opinion to value pitching that much, and that if you listed Johnson in accordance with your conviction, it would likely be a waste.

In this Game, if you insist on listing an idiosyncratic choice you should have a strong case to accompany it and hope that the next two Gamers are like-minded with you.


Good point. I'll consider that. I like that this is greater than my opinion. That's a draw for me to take part.

[dgarza]

The group is showing little tolerance for oddball picks, which is how it should be (to some extent). The tolerance level will be low for the Top 10. That makes sense.
So far, however, I don't think we have had any real oddball picks. Even the players removed have not really been all that out of line.

[leecemark]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson

--Kind of a tough call for me here. I would like to see Mike Schmidt in the top 10, but think he would probably get removed. Gibson is possibly more likley to stick and I'd kind of like to see a Negro Leaguer make the top 10.

--Windy City Fan on the clock.

[Freakshow]

Just for fun, here are the original 13 inductees to the BBFHOF from the first election in October 2003 (players active after 1998 were not eligible):

Aaron
Cobb
Foxx
Gehrig
Hornsby
Johnson
Mathewson
Mays
Musial
Ruth
Wagner
Williams
Young

In retrospect, two players stand out as not belonging here: Mathewson and Foxx. YMMV.

[Brad Harris]

Just for fun, here are the original 13 inductees to the BBFHOF from the first election in October 2003 (players active after 1998 were not eligible):

Aaron
Cobb
Foxx
Gehrig
Hornsby
Johnson
Mathewson
Mays
Musial
Ruth
Wagner
Williams
Young

In retrospect, two players stand out as not belonging here: Mathewson and Foxx. YMMV.

Memories,
Like the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were...

[Freakshow]

Memories,
Like the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were...
When I was a child
I spoke as a child
I understood as a child
I thought as a child

[Erik Bedard]

Speaking of children, I was ten years old when that project began. Now I'm almost 16 and it's still going on.

[Yankeefan94]

Just for fun, here are the original 13 inductees to the BBFHOF from the first election in October 2003 (players active after 1998 were not eligible):

Aaron
Cobb
Foxx
Gehrig
Hornsby
Johnson
Mathewson
Mays
Musial
Ruth
Wagner
Williams
Young

In retrospect, two players stand out as not belonging here: Mathewson and Foxx. YMMV.

Matthewson may be the most questionable choice, but both of players deserve to be in that group. Mantle should be in that group too.

[Windy City Fan]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson

--Kind of a tough call for me here. I would like to see Mike Schmidt in the top 10, but think he would probably get removed. Gibson is possibly more likley to stick and I'd kind of like to see a Negro Leaguer make the top 10.

--Windy City Fan on the clock.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial

Gonna add Stan the Man.

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial

Gonna add Stan the Man.
Now we're rolling!:highfive:

Yankeefan94 is on the clock.

[Yankeefan94]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial

Gonna add Stan the Man.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Joe Dimaggio (Sorry, I had to remove Stan The Man Musial, 1st time.)

Classic is now on the clock

[jjpm74]

I'm not sure I agree with removing Stan Musial and replacing him with Joe DiMaggio. I think of DiMaggio as barely in the top 20 and definitely not as high as #11.

[henrich]

I'm not sure I agree with removing Stan Musial and replacing him with Joe DiMaggio. I think of DiMaggio as barely in the top 20 and definitely not as high as #11.

Oh I definitely agree with you. I think he's next in terms of CF's but there are a lot of other positions out there.

[BlueBlood]

I'm in agreeance. Don't really understand that one. I'd have DiMaggio in the Top 20, perhaps, but Musial at least in the Top 15. List could use another pitcher soon...

[Erik Bedard]

That's the first one that I consider egregious enough to remove.

[henrich]

Classic, you have me a bit anxious about what to do. I have several people I'm looking at, but I also don't know if you'll insert or remove a player here.

[dgarza]

Stan Musial at #11 was way too low for him in the 1st place. Then to remove him???

[BlueBlood]

Stan Musial at #11 was way too low for him in the 1st place. Then to remove him???

Especially, since it was our final chance to remove Bonds. Now he's permanently ranked.

[Brad Harris]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Joe Dimaggio (Sorry, I had to remove Stan The Man Musial, 1st time.)

Classic is now on the clock

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial (Sorry, I had to remove Joe DiMaggio, 1st time.)

henrich is now on the clock

[henrich]

Hitter or pitcher here...

[Brad Harris]

FWIW, had Musial not been replaced with the Yankee Flipper, I'd have put Oscar Charleston down as my pick.

[henrich]

FWIW, had Musial not been replaced with the Yankee Flipper, I'd have put Oscar Charleston down as my pick.


I like your switch back. I'm not heading to Charleston, just got back from there actually:)

I'm thinking of a Red Sock or a Yankee here Ughh.

[Freakshow]

Sorry -- accidental edit -- PM sent

[henrich]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial (Sorry, I had to remove Joe DiMaggio, 1st time.)

henrich is now on the clock

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig

Correct me if I'm wrong b/c it's a new round, but Blue Blood is on the clock unless we are switching the order.

[J W]

Talking strictly based on the numbers, this was posted yesterday at the Hall of Merit:

Is there any doubt that the top three position players of all time are Bonds/Ruth/Williams?

Only offensively, and disregarding position played or era (integration, # of teams)... and even then Mr. Cobb has an argument based on sheer number of ABs accrued.

[Freakshow]

Only offensively, and disregarding position played or era (integration, # of teams)... and even then Mr. Cobb has an argument based on sheer number of ABs accrued.
It's not based only on offense. It takes into account the whole playing careers and gives Williams full war credit.

[Freakshow]

Correct me if I'm wrong b/c it's a new round, but Blue Blood is on the clock unless we are switching the order.
Yes, BlueBlood is up now. We'll go another round with this order.

[BlueBlood]

JW, you're quoting a post I never made...

As for my turn, I either want to chuck in another pitcher (Lefty Grove or Satchel Paige) or a player (Charleston or Speaker now that Gehrig is gone)...I'm wanting to go with a pitcher because they're usually undervalued in these lists.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Lefty Grove

Classic is now on the clock.

[Freakshow]

JW, you're quoting a post I never made...
He was quoting me from #123, which he accidentally deleted. I was making the point that we have Bonds reasonably placed at #9, given he has an arguement as the #1 player ever, but has other issues which drag him down in an assessment of his HOF merit.

[Brad Harris]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Lefty Grove

Classic is now on the clock.
1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Lefty Grove
14. Oscar Charleston

dgarza is now on the clock.

[BlueBlood]

I think were out of the endless removal phase. I don't see it happening again unless someone tries to pull a fast one. Like Shawn Green at #467 instead of #489. That would be outrageous! :rofl:

[Brad Harris]

I think were out of the endless removal phase. I don't see it happening again unless someone tries to pull a fast one. Like Shawn Green at #467 instead of #489. That would be outrageous! :rofl:

Depends on whether or Mo Vaughn's at #466. ;)

[jjpm74]

Depends on whether or Mo Vaughn's at #466. ;)

I'm thinking of going for Dave Kingman as my next pick. ;)

[BlueBlood]

We mustn't forget Delino Deshields. At least Top 480.

[dgarza]

I think were out of the endless removal phase. Not quite...

[dgarza]

I still don't understand the knock against Rogers Hornsby. He's a clear Top 10 to me.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Lefty Grove
14. Oscar Charleston

dgarza is now on the clock.



1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby - (sorry, removed Lefty Grove - 1st time)

I'm not really sure about Charleston, but I'll leave him.

Lefty Grove is the best lefthanded pitcher out there, but a Top 3 pitcher? I don't think so.
He's not even one of my Top 5 pitchers (he's #6).
He's outside of my Top 25 players. #13 is twice as high as he needs to be, to be generous.

Erik Bedard is now on the clock! :candle:

:crossfingers::crossfingers:

[Freakshow]

I think were out of the endless removal phase. I don't see it happening again unless someone tries to pull a fast one.
You'll always get some nutball's sytem putting Craig Biggio at #35. Hopefully, we won't see too much of that.:lookitup

[BlueBlood]

Hmmm....is Biggio in the Top 50 alright? Because I um, yeah...

[Brad Harris]

You'll always get some nutball's sytem putting Craig Biggio at #35. Hopefully, we won't see too much of that.:lookitup
Funny story, but when that book first came out, a friend here "Bill James ranked Craig Biggio #35 all-time" and, knowing I have a lot of familiarity with James' work, he came demanding an explanation from me. He said "I can name 50 second basemen I'd take over Biggio without thinking about it!" :laugh

[Freakshow]

Funny story, but when that book first came out, a friend here "Bill James ranked Craig Biggio #35 all-time" and, knowing I have a lot of familiarity with James' work, he came demanding an explanation from me. He said "I can name 50 second basemen I'd take over Biggio without thinking about it!" :laugh
Funny story also. Of course, we know that Biggio was a fabulous player, easily a top ten second baseman, an argument to be a top 100 player.

[Erik Bedard]

I still don't understand the knock against Rogers Hornsby. He's a clear Top 10 to me.





1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby - (sorry, removed Lefty Grove - 1st time)

I'm not really sure about Charleston, but I'll leave him.

Lefty Grove is the best lefthanded pitcher out there, but a Top 3 pitcher? I don't think so.
He's not even one of my Top 5 pitchers (he's #6).
He's outside of my Top 25 players. #13 is twice as high as he needs to be, to be generous.

Erik Bedard is now on the clock! :candle:

:crossfingers::crossfingers:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Tris Speaker

Did DiMaggio really go up before Speaker? :eek:

My ranking of Negro Leaguers is rough at best, but I have Charleston and Speaker roughly the same. If Charleston is up, Speaker should be either up already or at/near the front of the queue. Since he wasn't up, I decided to put him there.

Now a third of the top 15 is made up of CFs, 60% of which were put there by yours truly.

[BlueBlood]

^ Lucky for you. I've had my powers stripped twice so far although I guess I went right with the easiest pick of all...

[jjpm74]

Does the 5th best CFer really deserve to be ranked higher than the best 3Bman?

[Freakshow]

Erik posted his turn only 40 minutes after the previous one. I'll let it go this time, but please follow the rules and allow the allotted time for discussion.

Clearly, the best player still on the board is Roger Clemens, IMO. I'm knocking him down a few pegs because of the baggage he's acquired apart from his playing. Still, I really think we need another pitcher. I think it's Grove, considering peak play and minor league credit. Others in the mix would be Young, Maddux and Paige.

I really like Eddie Collins. The Hall of Merit just voted him the #1 second baseman of all time, over Hornsby. I tend to agree. If Schmidt had lasted a couple more years I might favor him. ARod still needs a couple more years.

So, Grove or Collins?

[Freakshow]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Tris Speaker
16. Lefty Grove

With apologies to Clemens and Collins.

jjpm74 is on the clock

[jjpm74]

I'd definitely take Grove over Collins and Speaker. I'd also take Grove over Clemens.

I also think the 1 hour clock should be reduced to 1/2 hour. Especially during heavy traffic times of the day. ;)

[Erik Bedard]

Whoops, forgot we started that one-hour rule. My bad.

I'd put Maddux before Grove, and well ahead of Clemens considering Hall-worthiness. But that's just me.

Yes, the fifth best CF deserves to go up before the best 3B, if he was a greater player.

[jjpm74]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt *removed Tris Speaker 1st time.

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

[John Shoemaker]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt *removed Tris Speaker 1st time.

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker (Reinstated)
18. Ken Griffey Jr.

With my turn I did 2 things with center fielders. First I reinstated Tris Speaker. Then I added Ken Griffey Jr. Both are great center fielders.

leecemark is now on the clock

[leecemark]

--I'll wait the full hour before taking my offical turn. My intention though is to remove Ken Griffey (15-30 slots too early) and add either Cy Young or Greg Maddux. Not much chance someone could convince me not to remove Griffey, but I am interested in opinion on Young and Maddux. Or arguements for others if someone cares to make them (Morgan or Bench anyone?).

[jjpm74]

IMO, we need a modern era pitcher as the next pitcher. Maddux is the next logical choice for a pitcher. On Morgan, no way I'd have him ranked higher than Collins.

[dgarza]

My intention though is to remove Ken Griffey (15-30 slots too early)
30 slots at least.
He's hardly a Top 20 player. And no way he leap-frogs DiMaggio.


and add either Cy Young or Greg Maddux.
I'd go with Young myself (he'd be my next pick). If you want someone more current, I'm a Clemens supporter.

I'd rather see Foxx make the list before Morgan or Bench.

[leecemark]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
----Ken Griffey Jr. (removed, 1st time)
18. Greg Maddux

--Windy City Fan on the clock

[Freakshow]

Does the 5th best CFer really deserve to be ranked higher than the best 3Bman?
Besides making sure we get a few pitchers in the mix, I'm unconcerned with positional representation at this point. Probably when we get past 50 I'll start looking at it more.

[leecemark]

--If you were though....
C: 1
1B: 1
2B: 1
3B: 1
SS: 1
LF: 3
CF: 5
RF: 2
P: 3
--Outfielders in general are a little (well maybe more than a little) heavy. Thats always the case in these things though since thats where the bats play and everybody knows and loves the hitting numbers. Defense is harder to get a handle on.

[BlueBlood]

Alex Rodriguez should be showing up in the Top 25 by the way...

[leecemark]

C: Bench, Berra
1B: Foxx, Anson
2B: Morgan, Collins
3B: Mathews, Brett
SS, Rodriguez, Lloyd
LF: Henderson
CF: DiMaggio
RF: Robinson
P: Young, Alexander, Clemens , Paige

--These are the guys I'd like to see coming up next in some order (this would take us to 35). I'm sure they won't all make it, but I think I got most of the top candidates here. Thoughts on who I missed or on whether any of these don't belong this high? Who are the top 7 of this group to round out the top 25?

[jjpm74]

C: Bench, Berra
1B: Foxx, Anson
2B: Morgan, Collins
3B: Mathews, Brett
SS, Rodriguez, Lloyd
LF: Henderson
CF: DiMaggio
RF: Robinson
P: Young, Alexander, Clemens , Paige

--These are the guys I'd like to see coming up next in some order (this would take us to 35). I'm sure they won't all make it, but I think I got most of the top candidates here. Thoughts on who I missed or on whether any of these don't belong this high? Who are the top 7 of this group to round out the top 25?

These guys belong in the same company as those you listed:

1B Dan Brouthers
RF Mel Ott
P Smoky Joe Williams, Warren Spahn

[henrich]

C: Bench, Berra
1B: Foxx, Anson
2B: Morgan, Collins
3B: Mathews, Brett
SS, Rodriguez, Lloyd
LF: Henderson
CF: DiMaggio
RF: Robinson
P: Young, Alexander, Clemens , Paige

--These are the guys I'd like to see coming up next in some order (this would take us to 35). I'm sure they won't all make it, but I think I got most of the top candidates here. Thoughts on who I missed or on whether any of these don't belong this high? Who are the top 7 of this group to round out the top 25?

I have Brooks Robinson over Matthews at 3B, I have Pete Rose just behind Rickey Henderson in LF with Yaz close behind, Ripken instead of Lloyd for me at SS, Frankie Frisch just ahead of Morgan at 2B, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, and Johnny Mize I have in the neighborhood of Anson, but all behind Foxx, Dickey and Campanella follow Berra and Bench, I have Speaker as the next CF after DiMaggio, and Reggie Jackson following Frank Robinson. I have the pitchers in different order, but in the same ballpark.

[leecemark]

I have Brooks Robinson over Matthews at 3B, I have Pete Rose just behind Rickey Henderson in LF with Yaz close behind, Ripken instead of Lloyd for me at SS, Frankie Frisch just ahead of Morgan at 2B, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, and Johnny Mize I have in the neighborhood of Anson, but all behind Foxx, Dickey and Campanella follow Berra and Bench, I have Speaker as the next CF after DiMaggio, and Reggie Jackson following Frank Robinson. I have the pitchers in different order, but in the same ballpark.


--Brooks Robinson is a lock to be removed if he appears anywhere in the top 50 (and could easily fail to make the top 100). Ditto for Frisch. Murray, Campanella and Dickey should make the top 100, but they aren't top 50 either. Speaker is already on the list - and ahead of DiMaggio, as he should be.

[Brad Harris]

I'd consider the following in the near future also:

1B - Greenberg, Bagwell
2B - Lajoie, Gehringer, Robinson
3B - Boggs, Baker
SS - Vaughan, Ripken
OF - Griffey, Snider, Yaz, Torriente
P - Hubbell, Seaver, R. Johnson, Nichols

[henrich]

--Brooks Robinson is a lock to be removed if he appears anywhere in the top 50 (and could easily fail to make the top 100). Ditto for Frisch. Murray, Campanella and Dickey should make the top 100, but they aren't top 50 either. Speaker is already on the list - and ahead of DiMaggio, as he should be.


Sorry I missed Speaker. Couldn't disagree more with you on Brooks Robinson and Frankie Frisch. Campanella was incredible per at bat what he did in the major leagues. If true then Murray and Dickey are underrated.

I have DiMaggio one spot of Speaker, but no matter.
I

[Freakshow]

Another list, just for fun. I looked this up today at Baseball Prospectus.

EDIT: found two guys I missed earlier

The top 102 all-time in WARP3 (2nd column is WARP1)
1-10
Bonds Ba 236.4 228.0
RUTH 227.8 255.1
MAYS W 220.1 235.5
AARON 217.6 225.0
Clemens 209.0 205.7
JOHNSON W 203.1 216.3
WAGNER 203.0 252.5
YOUNG C 198.8 213.6
COBB 194.3 242.8
MUSIAL 191.5 195.7
11-20
Henderson R 189.8 167.1
COLLINS E 180.6 235.5
OTT 178.0 192.3
SPEAKER 174.6 228.5
RIPKEN 173.1 131.5
Maddux 172.1 166.3
ROBINSON F 167.6 176.0
MORGAN 165.3 173.8
LAJOIE 163.8 214.9
ANSON 163.4 161.3
21-30
HORNSBY 162.8 201.9
SCHMIDT 157.0 156.7
WILLIAMS T 156.8 165.9
MANTLE 155.3 178.2
ROSE 155.2 166.1
Johnson Ra 153.8 148.7
ALEXANDER 150.9 164.0
BLYLEVEN 147.7 151.0
SEAVER 146.6 148.3
MATHEWS E 146.6 143.6
31-40
SPAHN 143.8 144.8
Rodriguez Al 142.0 110.9
BOGGS 139.2 111.8
GEHRIG 139.1 162.0
CARLTON 138.7 140.2
BRETT 137.7 122.1
RYAN N 135.5 137.5
GROVE 134.7 142.3
MURRAY 134.4 123.3
Griffey,Jr 134.2 110.8
41-50
Thomas F 133.8 111.4
NIEKRO P 132.9 136.2
O'ROURKE 132.9 134.1
MATHEWSON 132.7 146.6
Alomar R 132.6 110.9
SMITH O 132.5 122.6
YOUNT 132.0 109.6
YASTRZEMSKI 131.7 145.1
MOLITOR 131.7 112.0
VAUGHAN A 131.5 136.0
51-60
Mussina 131.4 126.1
RAINES 131.1 118.7
JACKSON R 131.0 131.7
PERRY G 130.9 135.3
DAVIS G 130.3 169.3
Palmeiro 130.1 108.5
WHITAKER 129.9 114.6
Glavine 129.7 126.7
CONNOR 128.9 139.7
JENKINS 128.5 132.6
61-70
Rodriguez I 128.5 107.8
ECKERSLEY 128.4 129.9
DAHLEN 127.9 173.2
APPLING 127.9 133.4
CLEMENTE 127.8 134.6
Bagwell 127.2 128.4
TRAMMELL 127.1 101.0
ROBERTS R 126.0 129.0
WINFIELD 125.2 117.3
WANER P 124.6 142.3
71-80
Sheffield 124.2 113.8
GRICH 123.9 117.8
Biggio 123.0 117.1
KALINE 122.9 141.4
CAREW 122.9 120.4
GEHRINGER 122.4 143.1
GWYNN 122.1 119.6
DIMAGGIO J 121.9 131.9
Larkin B 121.8 109.8
Smoltz 121.6 119.1
81-90
BENCH 120.5 126.8
FOXX 119.9 136.4
BANKS 119.9 117.8
ROBINSON B 119.3 129.8
FRISCH 118.8 150.9
GIBSON B 118.6 120.9
EVANS Dw 116.5 104.9
BROUTHERS 116.3 125.3
Martinez P 116.1 114.3
RANDOLPH 116.1 108.7
91-100
CARTER G 115.9 123.7
FISK 115.7 108.3
Kent 114.9 108.0
Schilling 113.9 113.6
Ramirez M 113.9 91.9
CRAWFORD 113.8 142.7
NICHOLS 113.6 124.0
WILLIAMS Bi 113.1 120.4
WALLACE 112.8 157.5
SANTO 112.8 115.5

McCOVEY 112.7 123.2
CRONIN 112.6 121.7

[dgarza]

Mussina makes the Top 55??? Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!

Blyleven = Top 30 :nod:

[Yankeefan94]

Maddux, ahead of Paige, and Clemens?? I shouldn't think so. I think that a lot of people are overrating Maddux because of his outstanding control. No doubt Maddux was, and is great, but he's not better than Paige or Clemens

My pitcher rankings
Walter Johnson
Satchel Paige
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Pete Alexander
Lefty Grove
Tom Seaver
Cy Young
Warren Spahn

It's very close after Spahn.

[Freakshow]

Paige has many colorful legends adorning his career. However, the available stats don't support his case as possibly the greatest pitcher ever. Refer to his Hall of Merit page (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/satchel_paige) at Baseballthinkfactory.

His charisma has lead to him being overrated. Dizzy Dean is a similar case, in a much shorter career.

[dgarza]

These players I'll likely look at next :

C :
1 : Foxx, Brouthers, Anson
2 : Lajoie, Collins
SS : Rodriguez
3 :
LF : Delahanty
CF : DiMaggio
RF : Robinson, Ott
P : Young, Clemens, Mathewson, Alexander, Johnson

[jjpm74]

Speaking of next, it's been about a day since our last pick.

[Freakshow]

Speaking of next, it's been about a day since our last pick.
The clock has expired on Windy City Fan. That's strike two for him. (He can still get his turn in if he posts it before the next Gamer's turn.)

Yankeefan94 is on the clock.

[Windy City Fan]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins

Yay, Maddux is on, so I don't have to put him on. I'll add Eddie Collins!

[Yankeefan94]

...
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins


1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe Dimaggio

I don't expect anyone to remove Dimaggio this time.

[dgarza]

Will there be a new order coming up?

[Freakshow]

Will there be a new order coming up?
If the Gamers at large are happy, I think we can keep it the same for Round 4.

BTW, the last Gamer should have ended his turn with:

henrich is on the Clock.

[henrich]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe Dimaggio

I don't expect anyone to remove Dimaggio this time.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens

I really like Clemens over Maddux, but that's okay, I can live with it. Honestly I could have put Clemens up there when I posted Gehrig, but that's okay. Blueblood, I think, is on the clock

[Yankeefan94]

If the Gamers at large are happy, I think we can keep it the same for Round 4.

BTW, the last Gamer should have ended his turn with:

henrich is on the Clock.

My bad. :)

This weekend I will be away, so if it is my turn on saturday or sunday then just skip me.

[dgarza]

BTW, the last Gamer should have ended his turn with:

henrich is on the Clock.

And who's on the clock now?

[John Shoemaker]

And who's on the clock now?

Blueblood.

[Freakshow]

Blueblood.
Correct. I wrote in #173 that the rotation wasn't being changed unless we had support for it, which we did not. I try to keep the current order of Gamers in the lead post in this thread, so always refer to that.

[Freakshow]

The clock has expired on BlueBlood. He can still get his turn in if he posts it before the next Gamer's turn.

Classic is on the clock.

[John Shoemaker]

I will be camping in Colorado this weekend and all next week. I will be unable to access a computer. When my turns come up just skip by me. I will get back Saturday evening August 23. I'l let everyone know when I get back. I love this game and I look foreward to continuing in it when I get back.

[Erik Bedard]

As far as the new order goes, I'd suggest that it be implemented after every five or ten rounds, or something like that.

[henrich]

I don't care what the order is, i.e., if we re-order or whatever, but I find it difficult to find out who I follow if it isn't posted on the page that we are on. If the order stays the same, then that's easy enough, but if it changes then the request would be to re-post the order on each page, to keep from a misunderstanding.

I fear the person following blueblood, doesn't know that he can post now, due to ignorance that it is his turn that is expiring shortly. We have a couple of people unable to participate this weekend-help us freakshow. :hp

[leecemark]

--The order has not changed and is in the first post of this thread. It is the responsibility of each participant to list the next person in line when they post their pick. If each of us does that there should be no misunderstandings.

[Brad Harris]

1. Babe Ruth
.
.
.
21. Roger Clemens

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx

dgarza is on the clock

[dgarza]

22. Jimmie Foxx

I just can't disagree with that pick. Foxx was very close to being my next move anyway.

[dgarza]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
...
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx


1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young

Erik Bedard is on the clock

At this point, all my Top 15 have been listed; 17 of my Top 20 have been listed; and 18 of my Top 25.

[BlueBlood]

Can we change the clock? I had a friend over that doesn't like baseball and didn't want to have them sit there bored while I messed with this game...it annoyingly already hurt me in another game on this site. :banghead:

Anyway, what I'm saying is that the clock should change to 12 hours. I really couldn't access this site or felt the need too and don't mind that I was going to be skipped. I just don't want to make everyone else here wait because of it.

[Erik Bedard]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
------------
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young

Erik Bedard is on the clock

At this point, all my Top 15 have been listed; 17 of my Top 20 have been listed; and 18 of my Top 25.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Alex Rodriguez

If A-Rod wasn't in the top 25, there would be something seriously wrong with this list. He could be legitimately in the top ten as of right now. I can't believe Griffey went up ahead of him, even though he was removed.

[jjpm74]

Who's on the clock?

[Freakshow]

I don't care what the order is, i.e., if we re-order or whatever, but I find it difficult to find out who I follow if it isn't posted on the page that we are on. If the order stays the same, then that's easy enough, but if it changes then the request would be to re-post the order on each page, to keep from a misunderstanding.

I fear the person following blueblood, doesn't know that he can post now, due to ignorance that it is his turn that is expiring shortly. We have a couple of people unable to participate this weekend-help us freakshow. :hp
I added notes to the rotation in post #1 for the people on vacation. I'd advise Gamers to be sure to read every post in the thread if they want to stay current with the discussion and "other matters".

what I'm saying is that the clock should change to 12 hours.
Gamers seem to be having enough trouble dealing with a 24-hour clock. I don't see a compelling case for shortening it to 12.

BTW, I'm on the clock now. Erik has been neglectful in including this statement at the end of his turn.

[Freakshow]

.....
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Alex Rodriguez

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Alex Rodriguez
25. Frank Robinson

With apologies to Joe Morgan and Pete Alexander, but Frank accomplished much more outside of his playing career than those two. Remember, we're ranking players on their entire contributions, not just playing.

I was tempted to remove ARod, who isn't quite yet top 25, but should get there soon. Foxx was a mistake that high, I think. Neither of those placements is close to being egregious, so I'm moving on.

jjpm74 is on the clock. (leecemark is approaching the on-deck circle)

[jjpm74]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra (Removed Alex Rodriguez 1st time)

Leecemark is now on the clock.

[BlueBlood]

Someone needs to reinstate Alex Rodriguez and then add someone new. I doubt Berra will last here. Bench has a better case. Then there's Piazza, a player where recent evidence discounting the value of defense at catcher might make him the best. Any way you slice it, none are Top 30 and potentially not even Top 40.

[Freakshow]

Someone needs to reinstate Alex Rodriguez and then add someone new. I doubt Berra will last here. Bench has a better case.
I pretty much agree with this. Berra excelled in the AL of the 1950's, a much weaker league than the NL at that time. Berra's throwing reputation is questionable; Bench's is excellent. On Berra's behalf, his managing does add something to his career and may carry him above Bench. In any case, neither belongs in the top 40, IMO.

I would be inclined to undo the last turn, unless a compelling case for Berra is forthcoming.

[dgarza]

Someone needs to reinstate Alex Rodriguez and then add someone new. If Alex Rodriguez is not Top 25, how far off could he possibly be? Not worth removing at this point.

[jalbright]

I'm not going to argue for any catcher other than Josh Gibson in the top 40, but I will take up Berra over Bench:

I can't buy the Win Shares book's decision that Berra beats Bench on defense A to A-, but if you reversed those grades, I'd buy it--and I think it captures that Berra was a fine defender, if not in Bench's class. It would be nice if we had Gold Gloves from Berra's era, so we could compare his haul to Bench's 10, but we can't.

In win shares, they're really close: Berra leads in career, 375-356, but Bench is better in best 3 seasons at 105-97 and nudges Berra in best five consecutive at 155-154. Personally, I'd take Berra overall, but it's obviously close.

Bench was an All-Star an impressive 14 times--but Berra did it 18 times.
Bench won two MVPs--but Berra won three.
Bench is 40th in MVP shares--but Berra is 15th.
Bench was in the top 10 in homers seven times--but Berra did it nine times (though Bench did lead twice to Berra's none)
Bench was in the top 10 in OPS+ four times--but Berra did that seven times.
Bench wins Black Ink handily, as Berra had none and Bench is 105th
Bench was 248th in Gray Ink--but Berra was 113th
Bench was 157th in HOF standards--but Berra was 115th.

As good as Bench was, I'd rather have Berra.

[leecemark]

--I like Bench over Berra, but think they are both reasonable choices at this point. I'd take both over Foxx, but I'm too many turns past to undo that (and he wasn't a terrible selection anyway). Three decisions to make here. Do I reinstate A-Rod? Do I select Bench or Morgan? Or should the next pitcher in line get the call - which would clearly be Alexander? Decisons posted shortly.

[jjpm74]

If Alex Rodriguez is not Top 25, how far off could he possibly be? Not worth removing at this point.

Having Alex Rodriguez in the top 25 is grossly overrating the guy. He's only at the midway point of his career (literally looking at his contract). As good as he is, he's not top 25, IMO and won't be there for at least 5 years. The BIG problem with that is a LOT can happen in 5 years. He could be implicated in the PEDs scandal, have a career ending injury, etc... He's top 40 at this point. The same holds true for Pujols.

[leecemark]

--He has a much longer track record than Pujols (he has played almost twice as many games). For that matter he has played more than DiMaggio -even giving Joe a fair amount of credit for time lost to WWII.
--If we're looking to honor longevity I did miss a player on my shot list who has them all beat though - Cap Anson. We also haven't honored anybody from the first (or second for that matter) generation of players. So will it be Anson. Morgan, Bench or Alexander? My time is runnign out for hanging around the house this morning so I guess I need to pick.....

[leecemark]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez (reinstated 1st time)
27. Cap Anson
--apologises to Bench, Morgan and Alexander
--Windy City Fan is on the clock

[jjpm74]

--He has a much longer track record than Pujols (he has played almost twice as many games). For that matter he has played more than DiMaggio -even giving Joe a fair amount of credit for time lost to WWII.
--If we're looking to honor longevity I did miss a player on my shot list who has them all beat though - Cap Anson. We also haven't honored anybody from the first (or second for that matter) generation of players. So will it be Anson. Morgan, Bench or Alexander? My time is runnign out for hanging around the house this morning so I guess I need to pick.....

Would you rank him higher than Frank Thomas or Ken Griffey Jr. at this point in his career? I definitely wouldn't.

Anson and Morgan would both make solid picks. It came down to them + Berra for me when I made my decision to remove Rodriguez.

[leecemark]

--Rodriguez has already had more great years than either Thomas or Griffey. Thomas was a better hitter at his peak, but had virtually no defensive or baserunning value - and declined quicker than you'd like. Griffey was not a better hitter than A-Rod, played the outfield to Rodriguez infield and also proved to be less durable than you'd like to see in an all time great. Griffey makes my top 40 and Thomas my top 50 -without pitchers included. Way to early for them in this project.

[Yankeefan94]

I'm back from vacation, so once Windy City Fan's turn is up I can go.

[jjpm74]

--Rodriguez has already had more great years than either Thomas or Griffey. Thomas was a better hitter at his peak, but had virtually no defensive or baserunning value - and declined quicker than you'd like. Griffey was not a better hitter than A-Rod, played the outfield to Rodriguez infield and also proved to be less durable than you'd like to see in an all time great. Griffey makes my top 40 and Thomas my top 50 -without pitchers included. Way to early for them in this project.

If Rodriguez never played another game, you'd honestly call him one of the 25 best players of all time?

[dgarza]

Having Alex Rodriguez in the top 25 is grossly overrating the guy. He's only at the midway point of his career (literally looking at his contract). As good as he is, he's not top 25, IMO and won't be there for at least 5 years.
If Alex Rodriguez doesn't have a long enough of a career for you to place him in the Top 25, how is Yogi Berra an easy pick for you?
Berra has 500+ less plate appearances than Rodriguez.

[dgarza]

If Rodriguez never played another game, you'd honestly call him one of the 25 best players of all time?Top 20 at this point.

[henrich]

If Alex Rodriguez doesn't have a long enough of a career for you to place him in the Top 25, how is Yogi Berra an easy pick for you?
Berra has 500+ less plate appearances than Rodriguez.

Plate appearnaces only grants you more opportunity...what you do with that opportunity is sometimes another matter. Now in this battle I have Berra as the greatest catcher at 16,703 to ARod's 13,080 so I agree that Berra is better, but I don't know that plate appearances should be a stat that allows one player to be sighted as better than another, or perhaps I misunderstood the argument.

[dgarza]

Plate appearnaces only grants you more opportunity...what you do with that opportunity is sometimes another matter. Now in this battle I have Berra as the greatest catcher at 16,703 to ARod's 13,080 so I agree that Berra is better, but I don't know that plate appearances should be a stat that allows one player to be sighted as better than another, or perhaps I misunderstood the argument.
You missed the point. I was only comparing career lengths, nothing more. jjpm74's remark about Rodriguez's career length ignores Berra's career length.

[henrich]

You missed the point. I was only comparing career lengths, nothing more. jjpm74's remark about Rodriguez's career length ignores Berra's career length.

then we agree. Sorry.

[jjpm74]

You missed the point. I was only comparing career lengths, nothing more. jjpm74's remark about Rodriguez's career length ignores Berra's career length.

1. I wasn't comparing Berra to Rodriguez. I simply think Rodriguez isn't quite there yet.

2. If you insist on comparing them:
Berra: 3 time MVP, A defense, 18 time all star as a catcher.
Rodriguez: 3 time MVP, B defense, 11 time all star as a 3B/SS.

Maybe someday he'll pass Berra. Right now, it's like comparing an apple to an orange. ;)

[leecemark]

--Berra was an All Star 14 seasons. 4 of those 18 All Star selections came in years when there were 2 games. He was also selected as the AL's starting catcher after he actually lost the starting job on his own team. His last couple selections were out of habit more than merit (as is generally the case for aging stars and surely will be for A-Rod as well).

[Windy City Fan]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez (reinstated 1st time)
27. Cap Anson
28. Grover Cleveland Alexander

Came down to Alexander v Morgan and it was a tough call, but I give Alexander the nod. He's definately ahead of Clemens who is grossly overrated here if you take PEDs into account.

Yankeefan94 is up!

[jjpm74]

His last couple selections were out of habit more than merit (as is generally the case for aging stars and surely will be for A-Rod as well).

We'll see. That's pure speculation at this point.

[leecemark]

--I might also point out it was easier to make the All Star team in an 8 team league, which was the case for most of Berra's career. Doesn't hurt when your manager is picking the squad almost every year either:).

[jjpm74]

--I might also point out it was easier to make the All Star team in an 8 team league, which was the case for most of Berra's career. Doesn't hurt when your manager is picking the squad almost every year either:).

I guess I should also point out Berra's 375 career win shares... or was that just his manager too? :)

[dgarza]

1. I wasn't comparing Berra to Rodriguez. I know you weren't. And that's what I didn't get. You seemed to be holding one standard to Rodriguez (in one part of your arguement), but not to Berra.

[dgarza]

Right now, it's like comparing an apple to an orange. ;)Amoung other things, they are both excellent juicers.

Now let's talk about apples and oranges...
:hide:

[Freakshow]

I'm not going to argue for any catcher other than Josh Gibson in the top 40, but I will take up Berra over Bench:

I can't buy the Win Shares book's decision that Berra beats Bench on defense A to A-, but if you reversed those grades, I'd buy it--and I think it captures that Berra was a fine defender, if not in Bench's class. It would be nice if we had Gold Gloves from Berra's era, so we could compare his haul to Bench's 10, but we can't.

In win shares, they're really close: Berra leads in career, 375-356, but Bench is better in best 3 seasons at 105-97 and nudges Berra in best five consecutive at 155-154. Personally, I'd take Berra overall, but it's obviously close.
This is a case that Win Shares leads one to the wrong conclusion. The major failing is it doesn't even try to address league quality. Berra was playing in a scarcely-integrated AL, a much weaker league than the NL at that time. Bench played in the fully-integrated stronger NL.

The other weakness of using WS here is it makes Berra appear the equal of Bench defensively. In Berra's day, nobody was stealing bases. That his arm wasn't great didn't hurt his team. In Bench's day, everybody was stealing. His great arm was a tremendous asset to his team.

WARP3 reflects these differences much better than win shares. Here are their career and top 5 years in WARP3, showing Bench as much superior:

Bench 120.5; 13.3-12.1-11.0-10.8-9.3
Berra 108.8; 10.3--10.0--9.3--8.7-8.5

EDIT: And Berra would have won few, if any gold gloves. Jim Hegan would have swept up most of them.

[jalbright]

This is a case that Win Shares leads one to the wrong conclusion. The major failing is it doesn't even try to address league quality. Berra was playing in a scrarcely-integrated AL, a much weaker league than the NL at that time. Bench played in the fully-integrated stronger NL.

The other weakness of using WS here is it makes Berra appear the equal of Bench defensively. In Berra's day, nobody was stealing bases. That his arm wasn't great didn't hurt his team. In Bench's day, everybody was stealing. His great arm was a tremendous asset to his team.

WARP3 reflects these differences much better than win shares. Here are their career and top 5 years in WARP3, showing Bench as much superior:

Bench 120.5; 13.3-12.1-11.0-10.8-9.3
Berra 108.8; 10.3--10.0--9.3--8.7-8.5


When they tell me what goes into calculating WARP-3, I'll be more inclined to listen. Until then, I'm unconvinced. One thing I'm sure of is that many people seriously overrate the amount "league quality" affects the game. I mean, even in WWII, the stars that were left didn't run rampant. So the adjustments, whatever they may properly be, are small--far smaller than generally imagined.

[Freakshow]

When they tell me what goes into calculating WARP-3, I'll be more inclined to listen. Until then, I'm unconvinced. One thing I'm sure of is that many people seriously overrate the amount "league quality" affects the game. I mean, even in WWII, the stars that were left didn't run rampant. So the adjustments, whatever they may properly be, are small--far smaller than generally imagined.
The league quality difference is at least enough to move Bench ahead of Berra.

OPS+ is another measure that ignores league quality. As hitters it makes the two appear about even:

Bench 126 OPS+, .627 OWP
Berra 125 OPS+, .631 OWP

Here, playing time is also virtually equal, adjusting for schedule length. Even a small adjustment for LQ moves Bench ahead.

[BlueBlood]

I'm not going to be around until the afternoon on Tuesday at the earliest so feel free to skip me.

[Yankeefan94]

...
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez (reinstated 1st time)
27. Cap Anson
28. Grover Cleveland Alexander



1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Grover Cleveland Alexander
28. Johnny Bench (Sorry, I had to remove Cap Anson, 1st time)

[Freakshow]

Again, don't forget to prompt the next Gamer:

henrich is on the clock (Classic is approaching the on-deck circle)

[Brad Harris]

I'm going to bed and it'll be 10 hours or so before I check back in. I'll take Mel Ott on my turn. Just didn't want to hold things up.

[henrich]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Grover Cleveland Alexander
28. Johnny Bench (Sorry, I had to remove Cap Anson, 1st time)

29. Steve Carlton
I don't know if we should wait for Classic or not, but he said he wanted Mel Ott at 30, although he may want to remove this one:)

Otherwise, Classic you're on the clock. zzzzzzzzz

[leecemark]

--I sure hope he removes him. This is way too early for Carlton. He could still reinstate Anson if he were so inclined as well.

[jjpm74]

It's ironic that Cap Anson gets pulled and Steve Carlton gets added (hopefully temporarily). I'd like to think the participants in the project are more open to looking at the 19th century guys and both Anson and Brouthers deserve a place in the top 40.

[henrich]

It's ironic that Cap Anson gets pulled and Steve Carlton gets added (hopefully temporarily). I'd like to think the participants in the project are more open to looking at the 19th century guys and both Anson and Brouthers deserve a place in the top 40.


I figured this might be a bit controversial, but man Steve Carlton was solid. I have him as the 4th best pitcher of all-time. 329 wins+56 shutouts+over 4000 k's, his Cy Young awards. How many times did he lead the league in wins?? I think you may be underestimating the guy.

there's still time to get them in the top 40. I'm not sure Brouthers makes it there, but surely Anson will.

[Freakshow]

Oh yeah, we'll wait for Classic to take his turn. Carlton is definitely too early, as is Bench. (Just because Berra was put up 15 or 20 spots early doesn't mean we should compound the error.)

19th century players will be an area of disagreement, I assume. In a ranking project like this I tend to be a bit more of a timeliner; I'm disinclined to rank any 19th century guy in the top 40. Anson, in particular, has some baggage in that he is often vilified for his role in solidifying the color line.

That's why this is a fun game. Vive la difference.

[henrich]

Way too early? Top 50? Top 100? Just curious.

[jjpm74]

I figured this might be a bit controversial, but man Steve Carlton was solid. I have him as the 4th best pitcher of all-time. 329 wins+56 shutouts+over 4000 k's, his Cy Young awards. How many times did he lead the league in wins?? I think you may be underestimating the guy.

there's still time to get them in the top 40. I'm not sure Brouthers makes it there, but surely Anson will.

I have Carlton in my top 10 pitchers of all time as well. What he did on bad teams was nothing short of amazing. The guy won 27 games and posted a 1.97 ERA on a team that won a total of 59 games. That is a testament to how great he was. I just think the removal of Anson was a bit dubious (though having Bench in there I can live with). :cap:

[dgarza]

Carlton is definitely too early, as is Bench. (Just because Berra was put up 15 or 20 spots early doesn't mean we should compound the error.)

Completely agree here.
Carlton... great pitcher, but I've got 6 -8 pitchers ahead of him who still need to be ranked.

[henrich]

I'm sure there will be more opinions, but I guess it's why one guy alone isn't doing this project:)

[leecemark]

--Disagree it is too early for Bench. He is the best catcher in major league history.
--Also disagree on Anson. He may have some baggage, but it largely misplaced IMO. Further, not only was he a great ballplayer (easily the best career amoung 19th century players and one of the monumental ones of any time), but he was also a major historical figure.
--Carlton is one fo the top 15 or so pitchers of all time. If he were the 11th or 12th to be named I'd have no problem with it. He has no business being on the board before Spahn, Seaver, Nichols or Paige though - and is behind a few more for me.

[Windy City Fan]

Agreed in that Carlton is waaaay too early. Seaver, Paige, Spahn, Feller, Mathewson, R. Johnson and possibly a few others stand in his way.

Bench isn't a bad choice at all at this point. I think Gibson in the top ten is a stretch, but I don't want to open up that can of worms again. On the other hand, I have to say if Gibson - who never faced a single pitch in the majors - is in the top ten without question, then I don't see how folks can complain and Bench and Berra sneaking into the back end of the top 30.

For 19th century players, I'd be disappointed if one of them didn't make the top 40. I perfer Delehanty over Anson, but I'd settle for Anson.

[jjpm74]

(Just because Berra was put up 15 or 20 spots early doesn't mean we should compound the error.)


At least 3 people participating in ths project disagree with your opinion or he would have been removed. :)

[Freakshow]

One project I had considered doing was to rank all the Hall of Famers into tenth-percentile groups. We now have the top 10% in the Hall compiled here:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Josh Gibson
10. Stan Musial
11. Lou Gehrig
12. Oscar Charleston
13. Rogers Hornsby
14. Lefty Grove
15. Mike Schmidt
16. Tris Speaker
17. Eddie Collins
18. Joe DiMaggio
19. Jimmie Foxx
20. Cy Young
21. Frank Robinson
22. Yogi Berra
23. Pete Alexander

Others ranking in this percentile are Barry Bonds, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez.

[Freakshow]

Way too early? Top 50? Top 100? Just curious.
Well, Bill James' peak-centric system had Carlton #78. The Baseball Survivor project had him #67. I tend to favor career value a bit more; I'd say he's top-60.

[Brad Harris]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Grover Cleveland Alexander
28. Johnny Bench
29. Mel Ott (Sorry, I had to remove Steve Carlton, 1st time)

dgarza is on the clock.

[Freakshow]

Next in Bill James' queue:
Joe Morgan (#15)
Satchel Paige (#17)
Turkey Stearnes (#25)
Rickey Henderson (#26)

Next in the Baseball Survivor queue:
Nap Lajoie (#21)
Christy Mathewson (#23)
Joe Morgan (#26)
Tom Seaver (#27)

Next in the 500 Player Pyramid queue:
Christy Mathewson 9
Nap Lajoie 9-
Joe Morgan 8+
Satchel Paige 8
Rickey Henderson 8
Tom Seaver 8

Next in the WARP3 queue:
Rickey Henderson (#11)
Cal Ripken (#15)
Joe Morgan (#18)
Nap Lajoie (#19)

[dgarza]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
... ... ...
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Grover Cleveland Alexander
28. Johnny Bench
29. Mel Ott


As early as Carlton was, Bench is too early too. Pehaps I underrate catchers, but it just seems too soon.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Pete Alexander
28. Mel Ott
29. Napoleon Lajoie (sorry, Bench removed - 1st time)

Erik Bedard is on the clock.

[BlueBlood]

Alright. Made it safely to the land an hour-and-change from Cooperstown. After missing two consecutive turns, I will resume picking once my # is up. For the record, we're this far along in the process and only one name is to my credit, numero uno, Babe Ruth. And even that managed to meet with controversy. :rofl:

[dgarza]

For the record, we're this far along in the process and only one name is to my credit, numero uno, Babe Ruth. And even that managed to meet with controversy. :rofl:Hold on now. I'm taking credit for Ruth. :debate:

[BlueBlood]

You absolutely can. I'm just saying it's the one slot and name of mine that eventually stuck. If we look at the finer details, I haven't nabbed a single fish yet. :hp

[Erik Bedard]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Pete Alexander
28. Mel Ott
29. Napoleon Lajoie
30. Johnny Bench (reinstated - 1st time)
31. Christy Mathewson

Tough call for me between Mathewson and Seaver. Seaver would get the quota bonus (non-deadball), but Mathewson was better, and coupled with his reputation as the game's gentleman, is what makes me put him ahead based on HoF worthiness.

Freakshow is on the clock.

[jjpm74]

That puts freakshow on the clock.

[dgarza]

I know of three 19th century players who are just ripe for the ranking!

[henrich]

I know of three 19th century players who are just ripe for the ranking!

I think he's thinking Phillies pitcher...early 70's...hmmm.

[henrich]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb
3. Willie Mays
4. Honus Wagner
5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Hank Aaron
8. Walter Johnson
9. Barry Bonds
10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial
12. Lou Gehrig
13. Oscar Charleston
14. Rogers Hornsby
15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt
17. Tris Speaker
18. Greg Maddux
19. Eddie Collins
20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens
22. Jimmie Foxx
23. Cy Young
24. Frank Robinson
25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez
27. Grover Cleveland Alexander
28. Johnny Bench
29. Mel Ott (Sorry, I had to remove Steve Carlton, 1st time)

dgarza is on the clock.

No offense taken at all, I find this a fun project. Very cool.

[Freakshow]

I'll vote later tonight. Just throwing this out there quick: Morgan is the consensus choice at this point (see #240). But can I live with Bench where he is now? Hmm. Whatcha think?