The BBF HOF Forum Collaboration Game – Game On! [Archive] - Page 10

jjpm74

11-03-2008, 04:20 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber
232. Keith Hernandez
233. Will Clark
234. Bobby Wallace
235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan
237. Larry Walker
238. Jim Edmonds
239. Jose Mendez
240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore

STLCards2 is on the clock.

Freakshow

11-03-2008, 05:40 AM

Helton had a phenomenal peak for a first baseman (or anyone)
A few comparisons that come to mind that we haven't listed yet:

Helton Win Shares 2000-05
29-26-27-34-30-25

Dale Murphy Win Shares 1982-87
32-32-33-31-22-29

Ken Singleton Win Shares 1975-80
33-24-36-28-32-27

Rusty Staub Win Shares 1966-71
18-28-28-27-30-32

Jimmy Wynn Win shares 1965-70
31-14-28-32-36-27

dgarza

11-03-2008, 05:52 AM

Helton Win Shares 2000-05
29-26-27-34-30-25

Dale Murphy Win Shares 1982-87
32-32-33-31-22-29

Ken Singleton Win Shares 1975-80
33-24-36-28-32-27

Rusty Staub Win Shares 1966-71
18-28-28-27-30-32

Jimmy Wynn Win shares 1965-70
31-14-28-32-36-27
Helton and Murphy are the two I can live with as picks.
In fact, I think Helton is next on my list, IIRC.

leecemark

11-03-2008, 05:58 AM

--Murphy is the only one of that group I solidly support for the Hall.

jjpm74

11-03-2008, 07:55 AM

Helton and Murphy are the two I can live with as picks.
In fact, I think Helton is next on my list, IIRC.

I'm pretty much in the same boat in terms or not removing those two players. Staub and Wynn would also be safe for me once we pass #250. Singleton is closer to #300.

Whenever Helton is added again, this will be his 4th and permanent time.

It'll be interesting to see how we round out the top 250. We're solidly in the gray area here, IMO. These are the only players left who I support for the HOF:

Pitchers: Bruce Sutter, Johan Santana, Edd Roush, Carl Mays, Clark Griffith
C: None. The closest: Thurman Munson, Biz Mackey
1B: None. The closest: Todd Helton, Jake Beckley, Gil Hodges
2B: Frank Grant, Nellie Fox
SS: Rabbit Maranville, Hughie Jennings, Joe Sewell
3B: None. The closest: Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer, Al Rosen
OF: Albert Belle, Joe Kelley

STLCards2

11-03-2008, 05:35 PM

John Shoemaker

11-03-2008, 10:32 PM

My queue as we near the start of round 31:

1. Todd Helton
2. Jose Canseco
3. Bob Lemon
4. Ray Dandridge
5. Albert Belle

I will select Todd Helton for the fourth time when my next turn comes up if nobody has selected him first.

henrich

11-04-2008, 03:26 PM

Anybody heard from WCF, am I supposed to skip him. If not I'll wait until about 10:00 to post.

I'm thinking of Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, or Herb Pennock. Any thoughts?

STLCards2

11-04-2008, 03:28 PM

Anybody heard from WCF, am I supposed to skip him. If not I'll wait until about 10:00 to post.

I'm thinking of Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, or Herb Pennock. Any thoughts?

Yeah, if you put Rice or Pennock - expect them to get booted...and quickly. Murphy would stick, most likely.

henrich

11-04-2008, 03:31 PM

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with your opinion on those two guys. IMO Rice was a stud and Pennock is underrated. However, I am listening...

STLCards2

11-04-2008, 03:43 PM

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with your opinion on those two guys. IMO Rice was a stud and Pennock is underrated. However, I am listening...

I am not neccessarily giving my personal opinion on the two- just stating a fact. Niether of these guys will make it - promise. Somebody (if not several for each) will dump them. If you want your guys to stick - go with Murphy.

henrich

11-04-2008, 06:07 PM

I hear you, but at this late stage of the 200's, is it so outrageous for them not to stick? One's a hall of fame player already, the other could (should) be in Jan/July of this coming year...as noted by his 72% of the vote. I'm not so sure that if they are removed again at the upcoming spot, that the egg on the face would not be more on the one who removes, not on the one who posts either of these two. Murphy if memory serves has only received 20% support. I'm not saying that the writers always get it right, but it is an indicator from those that do watch the games every night.

For me, Murphy would not be an outrageous error if he were included, but it's not a travesty either for me. Rice is rated higher, and Pennock even more so. These are based upon numbers they actually put up, not on projected stats.

Half an hour to post. Let me know what you think...I'm still listening, I've got one vote against Pennock and rice. Dgarza's opinion matters as he follows me:)

dgarza

11-04-2008, 06:35 PM

H, only Pennock is worth removing from your options by me.

Windy City Fan

11-04-2008, 06:50 PM

Windy City Fan

11-04-2008, 06:58 PM

Anybody heard from WCF, am I supposed to skip him. If not I'll wait until about 10:00 to post.

I'm thinking of Jim Rice, Dale Murphy, or Herb Pennock. Any thoughts?

Murphy is the best of the lot. Rice looks good on the surface, but isn't so hot if you look beyond the raw numbers. Pennok doesn't have much of a HOF case. Jack Morris looks better and he's not particularly close to my list.

henrich

11-04-2008, 07:28 PM

dgarza

11-04-2008, 08:33 PM

henrich

11-04-2008, 08:40 PM

wynn was difficult for me too, I was rationalizing what those who do park adjustments would of him, I was trying to be considerate there. On my straight stat approach I have him as the 46th ranked CF with a score of 7865 just ahead of Eric Davis at 7823. So I'm definitely okay with the removal.

AstrosFan

11-04-2008, 09:33 PM

I'm not sure how reinstatement works. I intend to reinstate Wynn (as he was removed in the turn prior to mine), and add Graig Nettles. Do I put Wynn back at the 249th spot, and add Nettles at 252, or do they go at 251 and 252?

jjpm74

11-04-2008, 09:34 PM

AstrosFan

11-04-2008, 09:36 PM

Wow, that was a quick response. Thanks!

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber
232. Keith Hernandez
233. Will Clark
234. Bobby Wallace
235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan
237. Larry Walker
238. Jim Edmonds
239. Jose Mendez
240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Graig Nettles

Freakshow is on the clock.

Freakshow

11-05-2008, 05:26 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Graig Nettles
253. Bob Lemon

As we near the HOF line, many of these picks seem to be relying on nothing but a consideration of hitting. No SS for 19 spots (Jennings, Glasscock and Sewell should be listed by now). One pitcher in 21 spots!? :eek: Lemon is a member of the three halls; other pitchers considered include Hoffman, Caruthers, Griffith and Grimes.

Rice is a really poor pick, but we've talked endlessly about his case on these boards. At least it wasn't Canseco. :ughh Browning squeezes into my tolerable zone, I guess.

Erik Bedard is on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-05-2008, 06:11 AM

leecemark

11-05-2008, 06:54 AM

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 06:54 AM

I really don't like the picks of Rice, Browning, and Nettles. Nettles is the only one I can do anything about at this point, so expect removal of him. Or maybe not, if someone can convince me otherwise. I'm also thinking Glasscock with my next pick. I would like to go with a Negro Leaguer, but at this point my knowledge in that area is lacking to the point that I'm not sure who's next. Alejandro Oms?

Glasscock would be a good choice here as he is overdue.

The next NeLers for me are Frank Grant (2B), Alejandro Oms (OF), Biz Mackey (C). All 3 are grey area guys, IMO though I think Grant is about due.

Erik Bedard

11-05-2008, 08:03 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock (Graig Nettles removed - 1st time)

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

AstrosFan

11-05-2008, 08:32 AM

--Nettles has a very good argument for best available 3B. He is at least a good, if not better, choice than Browning, Rice and Wynn.
--If you want a Negro Leaguer and want to address short positions you might consider SS Dobie Moore, 3B Ray Dandridge, C Biz Mackey or maybe pitcher Hilton Smith. Actualy I guess your CF Alejandro Ohms would be pretty reasonable too.
--I'm thinking Nellie Fox with my next pick.

I rank Wynn a little ahead, but I think a better comparison would be that regardless of who you rank ahead, there isn't much difference between Wynn and Nettles.

Fox would be an excellent choice.

John Shoemaker

11-05-2008, 09:58 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles (Reinstated)
256. Todd Helton

First of all I reinstated Graig Nettles - a very under-rated third baseman.

#1 in my queue is Todd Helton. Erik Bedard first selected him at #228 but he was removed. Jjpm74 reinstated him at #230 but again he was removed. Erik Bedard selected him for a third time at #244 but yet again he was removed. I definitily think he should have made the top 250 on our list but the best I could do now is select him for a fourth time at #256.

leecemark is now on the clock.

leecemark

11-05-2008, 10:03 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox

--Nettles is a pretty marginal HoF candidate IMO, but he is not out of place amoung recent picks. Helton survives only because this is his 4th choosing. Fox I feel pretty good about here. He is one of the few solid HoFers left on the board for me.

--Blueblood is on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-05-2008, 10:19 AM

Not standing out as bad among recent picks is a pretty weak reason to keep somebody on the list. There have been several questionable picks in the last few, of which Nettles is not the worst, but that does not make him more worthy than several players who have yet to appear. Saying he's more deserving of this spot than Jim Rice or Pete Browning is not exactly a ringing endorsement, IMO.

leecemark

11-05-2008, 10:37 AM

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 12:07 PM

--I may be leading the league in removals, but at this point anybody who has a reasonable case for Cooperstown is safe from me. We are past 250 now after all. the difference between 255 and 300 is pretty small.
--Nettles I go back and forth on. I was voting for him as the BBF monthly elections wound down, but he didn't make the cut in the first annual election was the field was much stronger. I'd like him in the Hall more than Darell Evans who made our list quite some time ago.

Nettles is easily the best third baseman who was left on the board. Leaving here is fine, IMO. The only surprise to me is that you didn't add Dale Murphy here (who would also be appropriate at this point).

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 01:00 PM

Still a number of HOFers left on the board. It'll be interesting to see where many of these players end up. I bolded the handful that I actually support as HOFers:

C
Rick Ferrell
Ernie Lombardi
Al Lopez
Biz Mackey

1B
Jake Beckley
Jim Bottomley
Frank Chance
George Kelley
Ben Taylor

2B
Johnny Evers
Frank Grant*
Tony Lazzeri
Bill Mazeroski
Ray Schalk
Red Schoendienst

SS
Luis Aparicio
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Hughie Jennings
Rabbit Maranville
Phil Rizzuto
Joe Sewell
Joe Tinker

3B
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
George Kell
Freddie Lindstrom

LF
Chick Hafey
Joe Kelley
Heinie Manush

CF
Hugh Duffy
Edd Roush
Lloyd Waner
Hack Wilson

RF
Willard Brown
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Tommy McCarthy
Sam Rice
Ross Youngs

P
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Candy Cummings
Leon Day
Lefty Gomez
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Bruce Sutter*
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

AstrosFan

11-05-2008, 01:00 PM

Best not on board by position:

C Munson or Howard
1B Chance
2B Randolph
3B Bando
SS Jennings
LF Belle
CF Murphy
RF Bo. Bonds, Singleton, or R. Smith
P (This space available to do as you wish. I really have no idea with the pitchers anymore.)

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 01:27 PM

Position Players in the Bill James top 25 by position not yet selected:

C

14 Thurman Munson
15 Elston Howard
18 Darrell Porter
19 Lance Parrish
20 Wally Schang
21 Bob Boone
22 Ernie Lombardi
23 Gene Tenace
24 Rim McCarver
25 Darren Daulton

1B

12 Don Mattingly
20 Norm Cash
23 Mickey Vernon
25 Frank Chance

2B

17 Willie Randolph
19 Tony Lazzeri
20 Larry Doyle
21 Chuck Knoblauch
22 Dick McAuliffe
23 Davey Lopes
24 Buddy Myer
25 Johnny Evers

3B

11 Sal Bando
14 Al Rosen
16 Ron Cey
18 Bob Elliott
19 Buddy Bell
20 Tommy Leach
22 Robin Ventura
23 Matt Williams
24 Ed Yost
25 Ken Caminiti

SS

13 Luis Aparicio
15 Jim Fregosi
16 Phil Rizzuto
18 Hughie Jennings
19 Maury Wills
20 Johnny Pesky
22 Vern Stephens
23 Joe Sewell
24 Tony Fernandez
25 Bert Campaneris

LF

17 Charlie Keller
19 Frank Howard
20 Albert Belle
24 Jimmy Sheckard
25 Roy White

CF

12 Dale Murphy
13 Wally Berger
15 Edd Roush
17 Fred Lynn
18 Vada Pinson
19 Hack Wilson
20 Hugh Duffy
21 Cesar Cedeno
22 Amos Otis
24 Dom DiMaggio
25 Brett Butler

RF

14 Dave Parker
15 Bobby Bonds
17 Bobby Murcer
18 Ken Singleton
20 Reggie Smith
21 Tony Oliva
24 Rusty Staub
25 Pedro Guerrero

Highest ranked pitchers still on the board:

38 Carl Mays
44 Lon Warneke
46 Don Newcombe
50 Edie Cicotte
52 Luis Tiant Jr.
55 Wilbur Cooper
57 Bruce Sutter*
59 Billy Pierce
61 Virgil Trucks
62 Burleigh Grimes
63 Tommy John
64 Catfish Hunter
65 Jim Kaat
66 Ron Guidry
67 Lefty Gomez
68 Dan Quisenberry
69 Bucky Walters
70 Clark Griffith
71 Urban Shocker
72 Mickey Lolich
74 Dave Stieb
76 Dwight Gooden
77 Tommy Bridges
78 Waite Hoyt
79 Bret Saberhagen
80 Addie Joss

AstrosFan

11-05-2008, 01:39 PM

I didn't realize Mattingly was still not elected. I'd put him ahead of Chance.

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 01:42 PM

Top 100 Pitchers project highest ranked still available:

Tier 3:

Ron Guidry

Tier 4:

Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Lefty Gomez
Trevor Hoffman
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Tony Mullane
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry
Johan Santana
Bruce Sutter*
Vic Willis

Tier 5:

Chief Bender
David Cone
Wilbur Cooper
Burleigh Grimes
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Cannonball Dick Redding
Brett Saberhagen
Urban Shocker
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Bucky Walters
Smoky Joe Wood

BlueBlood

11-05-2008, 02:49 PM

Mark & I have been drinking the same Kool Aid for some time now. Nellie Fox was going to be my next pick.

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox
258. Frank Grant

I think we might have dropped the ball a bit when it comes to NEL-ers. I know this pick will stick so I'm putting him in now. Arguably pointless considering the person after me might have listed him next but I'm going to go with what I believe in the most.

jjpm74 is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 03:52 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox
258. Frank Grant
259. Bruce Sutter

Grant and Fox were literally my next 2 picks, so no removal from me. From this point forward, I don't plan on removing a player unless they are grossly (over 50-60 slots) early and given the fact that blueblood and leecemark seem to have similar tastes as me, that's a very unlikely scenario.

Also considered closely: Hughie Jennings, Rabbit Maranville, Joe Sewell, Dale Murphy

While Short Stop is the only defensive position left where I have 3 players I support for the HOF, there's still a dearth of about 9 pitchers who I can see a clear HOF case for.

STLCards2 is now on the clock.

dgarza

11-05-2008, 04:26 PM

While Short Stop is the only defensive position left where I have 3 players I support for the HOF, there's still a dearth of about 9 pitchers who I can see a clear HOF case for.

Dearth means "shortage".

Sorry, it's just that I've seen you use that word often with the opposite intent.

jjpm74

11-05-2008, 05:55 PM

Dearth means "shortage".

Sorry, it's just that I've seen you use that word often with the opposite intent.

I probably could have phrased it better, but IMO we are short about 8-10 pitchers to this point so the word dearth is fitting here.

Freakshow

11-06-2008, 05:05 AM

259. Bruce SutterI don't support Sutter here, perhaps the weakest player ever elected by the BBWAA. He's probably not among the next 50 in my queue. Hoffman is a much better choice among relievers.

Freakshow

11-06-2008, 05:31 AM

Players on the board in the 3 Halls (Cooperstown, BBFHOF, Hall of Merit)
Biz Mackey
Edd Roush
Hughie Jennings
Joe Kelley
Joe Sewell
Clark Griffith
Willard Brown

Players in the BBFHOF and Hall of Merit
Bob Caruthers
Cupid Childs
Homerun Johnson
Cal McVey
Dobie Moore
Alejandro Oms

dgarza

11-06-2008, 06:26 AM

Players on the board in the 3 Halls (Cooperstown, BBFHOF, Hall of Merit)
Biz Mackey
Edd Roush
Hughie Jennings
Joe Kelley
Joe Sewell
Clark Griffith
Willard Brown

Griffith is in the BBFHOF as a contributor, correct?

STLCards2

11-06-2008, 07:13 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox
258. Frank Grant
259. Bruce Sutter
260. Clark Griffith

I would remove Sutter, but it seems there is a bit of a gentelman's agreement not to remove players at this point unless they are horrid selections.

Windy City is on the clock.

jjpm74

11-06-2008, 11:36 AM

I don't support Sutter here, perhaps the weakest player ever elected by the BBWAA. He's probably not among the next 50 in my queue. Hoffman is a much better choice among relievers.

What makes Hoffman so much better than Sutter? I also have Quisenberry ahead of Hoffman. Hoffman was basically the Lee Smith of his generation. Unfortunately, there are no uberstats that are useful to look at when weighing the effectiveness of a reliever so I'd be curious as to how each of us is arriving at our rankings when it comes to relievers from this point forward.

I'm not especially hot on any player at this point, so if anyone wants to post their queues, it'd be helpful. The only other players left that I consider HOFers are Joe Sewell, Rabbit Maranville and Hughie Jennings.

jjpm74

11-06-2008, 11:46 AM

Griffith is in the BBFHOF as a contributor, correct?

His official status is Executive/Pioneer which technically puts him in as both an early player and contributor according to his Bio on the NBHoFM website.

dgarza

11-06-2008, 02:01 PM

I'm not especially hot on any player at this point, so if anyone wants to post their queues, it'd be helpful.
Bold - strongest consideration

C - McVey, Lombardi, Munson, Parrish, Cooper
1 - Bottomly, Mattingly, Giambi, Beckley, Garvey
2 - Doyle, Lazzeri, Schoendienst, Childs, Pratt
SS - Stephens, Garciaparra, Tejada, McKean, Aparicio
3 - Rosen, Meyerle, Lyons, Elliot, Zimmerman
RF - Oliva, Cuyler, Rice, Gonzalez, Colavito
CF - Duffy, Wilson, Murphy, Oliver, Van Haltren
LF - Belle, O'Neill, Johnson, Manush, Veach
SP - McCormick, Welch, Mathews, Mullane, Gomez
CL - Hoffman, Smith, Wagner, Marberry, Quisenberry

Windy City Fan

11-06-2008, 03:31 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox
258. Frank Grant
259. Bruce Sutter
260. Clark Griffith
261. Albert Belle (2nd time on the list)

Can't argue with the total package of Griffith and Sutter is a reasonable pick (though Quisenberry and maybe Hoffman are slightly better). Anyway, as promised, I'm going with Albert Belle again. I ask anyone who considers removing him to explain how Kirby Puckett is almost a 120 slots better with a similiar length career.

John Shoemaker

11-06-2008, 03:38 PM

henrich is now on the clock as we start round 32.

jjpm74

11-06-2008, 03:47 PM

I like Belle enough at this point that I'd reinstate him if he were removed before me.

Freakshow

11-07-2008, 08:55 AM

What makes Hoffman so much better than Sutter? Compare Hoffman's prime to Sutter's whole career:

Player OPS+ ERA+ SV WHIP IP G From To
+-----------------+----+----+---+-----+------+----+----+----+
Trevor Hoffman 62 154 519 1.020 852.2 815 1994 2007
Bruce Sutter 75 136 300 1.140 1042.1 661 1976 1988 Top 12 Years

Hoffman
YEAR WARP3 ERA+
1998 8.7 263
1996 8.6 178
1997 7.3 147
1994 6.4 161
2004 6.2 168
1999 5.6 196
2006 5.6 189
2000 6.2 143
2002 5.7 137
2007 5.4 135
2005 5.0 130
2001 4.7 117
career 86.5 144

Sutter
YEAR WARP3 ERA+
1977 9.5 327
1984 8.4 229
1979 8.4 187
1980 6.4 149
1981 5.4 136
1978 5.3 126
1976 4.2 142
1982 4.7 126
1985 3.0 85
1983 2.8 86
1988 1.1 77
1986 0.6 91
career 59.8 136

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 10:56 AM

12 years WARP3? What I really want to know is his 3.1417 years WARP3. His 6.21978 years WARP 3 might also help illustrate his effectiveness over Sutter as well. ;)

Sutter won a Cy Young award, was a 6 time all star, won 4 Rolaids Relief awards.

Hoffman was a 6 time All Star with 0 Cy Youngs and won the Rolaids Relief Award 2 times.

Being able to hang on forever and compile lots of pretty numbers does not make someone a HOFer. Being dominant within one's own era does. The only other reliever in Sutter's era who approached the level of dominance he achieved was Dan Quisenberry. In Hoffman's time, we have Rivera, Wagner and an onslaught of talented young closers all who outshine Hoffman.

Something that weighs heavily in determining a closer's effectiveness (unlike other positions) is their ability to shut the door on important games in the post season. Hoffman had a complete meltdown in the 1996 and 1998 post seasons and was a non-factor in 2005 and 2006. Bruce Sutter played an integral role in the 1982 post season.

Freakshow

11-07-2008, 12:11 PM

12 years WARP3? What I really want to know is his 3.1417 years WARP3. His 6.21978 years WARP 3 might also help Your boy Sutter wins in 3.1417 years WARP3, 27.2 to 25.5. By 6.21978 years WARP3, Sutter trails 44.7 to 44.4. :p

It's hard to see Hoffman, a player with nearly 50% more value in his career, along with being his generation's leader in saves (unlike Sutter), and having an excellent peak himself, as being worse than Sutter.

There's really no difference in their Cy Young support. Hoffman was 2nd twice; total 1.07 award shares. Sutter balances this with being 1st once and had 1.14 award shares.

Being able to hang on forever and compile lots of pretty numbers is better than being cut down before accumulating great career value. The small sample size of postseason play doesn't change the picture much.

dgarza

11-07-2008, 12:23 PM

Being able to hang on forever and compile lots of pretty numbers is better than being cut down before accumulating great career value. It's not better necessarily in and of itself, but it really doesn't apply in Hoffman's case anyway because he really hasn't been "hanging on" much at all.
In 2006 he was 10th in MVP voting and 2nd in CY voting. And he was pretty much stellar in 2007 until August hit. So, what, he's been "hanging on" for something like a year and a half?
Myself, I would not call what Hoffman is doing "hanging on". It's not that kinid of career path, yet.

Looking at Sutter's 1983 & 1985-1988, wasn't he "hanging on" for quite a few years? Without those years, he has well under 300 saves.

Freakshow

11-07-2008, 01:32 PM

Relievers with best ERA+ in a season, at least one save, at least 100 G+IP

Cnt Player ERA+ IP SV ERA G Year Age
+----+-----------------+----+-----+--+------+---+----+---+
1 Dennis Eckersley 606 73.1 48 0.61 63 1990 35
2 Jonathan Papelbon 515 68.1 35 0.92 59 2006 25
3 Jose Mesa 415 64 46 1.12 62 1995 29
4 Brad Ziegler 384 59.2 11 1.06 47 2008 28
5 John Smoltz 383 64.1 45 1.12 62 2003 36
6 Dale Murray 372 69.2 10 1.03 32 1974 24
7 Tim Burke 355 91 18 1.19 55 1987 28
8 Eric Gagne 335 82.1 55 1.20 77 2003 27
9 B.J. Ryan 333 72.1 38 1.37 65 2006 30
10 Rollie Fingers 332 78 28 1.04 47 1981 34
11 Bruce Sutter 327 107.1 31 1.34 62 1977 24
12 Takashi Saito 327 64.1 39 1.40 63 2007 37
13 Carlos Marmol 326 69.1 1 1.43 59 2007 24
14 Ugueth Urbina 323 69.1 34 1.30 64 1998 24
15 Armando Benitez 317 69.2 47 1.29 64 2004 31
16 Joey Eischen 316 53.2 2 1.34 59 2002 32
17 Joe Nathan 314 67.2 39 1.33 68 2008 33
18 J.J. Putz 314 71.2 40 1.38 68 2007 30
19 Rafael Betancourt 312 79.1 3 1.47 68 2007 32
20 Mariano Rivera 308 70.2 39 1.40 64 2008 38
21 Mike Jackson 307 64 40 1.55 69 1998 33
22 John Wetteland 307 85.1 43 1.37 70 1993 26
23 Mariano Rivera 307 78.1 43 1.38 71 2005 35
24 Ted Abernathy 298 106.1 28 1.27 70 1967 34
25 Joe Nathan 292 72.1 44 1.62 73 2004 29
26 Damaso Marte 292 79.2 11 1.58 71 2003 28
27 Billy Wagner 292 77.2 38 1.51 75 2005 33
28 Randy Myers 291 59.2 45 1.51 61 1997 34
29 Shigetoshi Hasega 291 73 16 1.48 63 2003 34

John Shoemaker

11-07-2008, 03:41 PM

henrich's clock has now run out - dgarza is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 03:53 PM

While not a big list, there are several relief pitchers who have shown up periodically in HOF related projects and conversations that we don't already have listed in this project. 2 in particular should be coming up in the next few turns, IMO:

Dan Quisenberry
Trevor Hoffman

Quiz is in the BBFHOF and Hoffman is often discussed as a HOF lock.

Two others made it into the UQFC Top 150 and are somewhere in the 300s, IMO:

Sparky Lyle
Firpo Marberry

As for the rest:

Rick Aguilera
Roy Face
John Franco
Gene Garber
Tom Henke
John Hiller
Doug Jones
Gary Lavelle
Mike Marshall
Lindy McDaniel
Jeff Montgomery
Randy Myers
Jesse Orosco
Troy Percival
Ron Perranoski
Dan Plesac
Dave Righetti
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
Kent Tekulve
Billy Wagner
John Wetteland

dgarza

11-07-2008, 04:13 PM

As for the rest:

Rick Aguilera
Roy Face
John Franco
Gene Garber
Tom Henke
John Hiller
Doug Jones
Gary Lavelle
Mike Marshall
Lindy McDaniel
Jeff Montgomery
Randy Myers
Jesse Orosco
Ron Perranoski
Dan Plesac
Dave Righetti
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
Kent Tekulve
John WettelandWagner and Percival should be listed as well. I have Wanger right after Hoffman and before Smith.

dgarza

11-07-2008, 04:19 PM

henrich's clock has now run out - dgarza is now on the clock.
I will keeping Griffith. His playing career does not add up to a #260 slot, but I suppose the rest of his baseball accomplishes do.
Albert Belle is a no-brainer keeper.

I'll be looking at either Duffy or McCormick or Welch for my pick.

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 04:36 PM

Wagner and Percival should be listed as well. I have Wanger right after Hoffman and before Smith.

Good catch.

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 04:37 PM

I will keeping Griffith. His playing career does not add up to a #260 slot, but I suppose the rest of his baseball accomplishes do.
Albert Belle is a no-brainer keeper.

I'll be looking at either Duffy or McCormick or Welch for my pick.

Of those three, I'd rank them McCormick, Duffy, Welch.

Freakshow

11-07-2008, 08:02 PM

I'll be looking at either Duffy or McCormick or Welch for my pick.A consensus ranking would be:
1. Duffy
2. Welch
3. McCormick

Duffy is a member of Cooperstown, the BBFHOF and has been close, at times, to the Hall of Merit.

Welch is a member of Cooperstown and is consistently better-supported than McCormick by the BBFHOF and HOM electorates.

McCormick is not a member of any of the three halls, nor seems likely to be.

leecemark

11-07-2008, 08:19 PM

--McCormick would be a definate removal for me. I'm not keen on Duffy or Welch either, but I guess I'd leave them alone anyway.

STLCards2

11-07-2008, 08:30 PM

--McCormick would be a definate removal for me. I'm not keen on Duffy or Welch either, but I guess I'd leave them alone anyway.

I'd put in Willis, Bridges, Tiant, Pierce, John, Caruthers, Saberhagen, Shocker, and a few others over all three of them.

Some others leading pitcher candidates: Mullane, Cicotte, Mays, Santana, Hoffman, Quizenberry, L. Smith, Rueschel, Stieb, Joss, and Gomez

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 08:31 PM

--McCormick would be a definate removal for me. I'm not keen on Duffy or Welch either, but I guess I'd leave them alone anyway.

Thirty Four pitchers left on the board have been ranked ahead of both Mickey Welch and Jim McCormick in the top 100 pitchers project:

Ron Guidry
Bob Caruthers
Eddie Ciccotte
Lefty Gomez
Trevor Hoffman
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Tony Mullane
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry
Johan Santana
Vic Willis
Chief Bender
David Cone
Wilbur Cooper
Burleigh Grimes
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Cannonball Dick Redding
Brett Saberhagen
Urban Shocker
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Bucky Walters
Smoky Joe Wood

Hugh Duffy gets a lot of bonus points from people who are unfamiliar with the fact that offense was incredibly inflated during his most productive time. He also had a very short career. Personally, I don't have any of the 3 in the top 300 and would remove all 3 given the chance.

STLCards2

11-07-2008, 08:40 PM

Just out of curiosity - how much traction would 7 time (legitimate) Gold Glove winning 3B with 6,000 career AB's and a 125 OPS+ get at this point?

jjpm74

11-07-2008, 09:07 PM

Just out of curiosity - how much traction would 7 time (legitimate) Gold Glove winning 3B with 6,000 career AB's and a 125 OPS+ get at this point?

Sounds like a player that just about belongs here. I'd go one further and take a 6 time Gold Glove winner with 7000 ABs and a 114 OPS+ at this point. ;)

henrich

11-07-2008, 09:23 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
253. Bob Lemon
254. Jack Glasscock
255. Graig Nettles
256. Todd Helton
257. Nellie Fox
258. Frank Grant
259. Bruce Sutter
260. Clark Griffith
261. Albert Belle (2nd time on the list)
262. Dale Murphy

I'm hoping that I get this in time. Sorry for the delay to the game as I was away from my computer longer than I thought. I think dgarza cut me a break thanks!

Dgarza is on the clock.

Freakshow

11-07-2008, 10:56 PM

Highest OPS+ on the board, 8500+ PA

Player OPS+ PA From To
Ken Singleton 132 8558 1970 1984
John Olerud 128 9063 1989 2005
Bernie Williams 125 9053 1991 2006
Jake Beckley 125 10470 1888 1907 HOM HOF
Rusty Staub 124 11229 1963 1985
Jimmy Ryan 123 9106 1885 1903
Brian Downing 122 9309 1973 1992
Ed Konetchy 122 8664 1907 1921
Al Oliver 121 9778 1968 1985
G. Van Haltren 121 8979 1887 1903
Chili Davis 120 9996 1981 1999
Harold Baines 120 11092 1980 2001
Jose Cruz 120 8931 1970 1988
Jimmy Sheckard 120 9118 1897 1913 HOM
Mark Grace 119 9290 1988 2003
Luis Gonzalez 118 10531 1990 2008 A
A. Galarraga 118 8916 1985 2004
Don Baylor 118 9401 1970 1988
Jake Daubert 117 8742 1910 1924
Steve Garvey 116 9466 1969 1987
Mickey Vernon 116 9834 1939 1960
Highest OPS+ on the board, 7200-8500 PA

Player OPS+ PA From To
Jason Giambi 146 7776 1995 2008 A
Frank Howard 142 7353 1958 1973
Brian Giles 139 7582 1995 2008 A
Norm Cash 139 7910 1958 1974
Bob Johnson 138 8047 1933 1945
Jack Clark 137 8225 1975 1992
Reggie Smith 137 8050 1966 1982
Boog Powell 134 7810 1961 1977
Bobby Abreu 133 7750 1996 2008 A
Joe Kelley 133 8120 1891 1908 HOM HOF
Jose Canseco 132 8129 1985 2001
Rocky Colavito 132 7559 1955 1968
Greg Luzinski 130 7514 1970 1984
Fred Lynn 129 7923 1974 1990
Bobby Bonds 129 8090 1968 1981
Moises Alou 128 7913 1990 2008 A
Don Mattingly 127 7721 1982 1995
Bobby Veach 127 7557 1912 1925
Ellis Burks 126 8176 1987 2004
George Foster 126 7812 1969 1986
Edd Roush 126 8156 1913 1931 HOM HOF
Larry Doyle 126 7382 1907 1920
Jim Bottomley 125 8355 1922 1937 HOF
Kiki Cuyler 125 8098 1921 1938 HOF
Cy Williams 125 7720 1912 1930
Bobby Bonilla 124 8255 1986 2001
Bobby Murcer 124 7718 1965 1983
Roy Sievers 124 7349 1949 1965
Bob Elliott 124 8190 1939 1953

Highest OPS+ on the board, 6000-7200 PA

Player OPS+ PA From To
Jack Fournier 142 6033 1912 1927
Babe Herman 140 6226 1926 1945
D. Strawberry 138 6326 1983 1999
Pedro Guerrero 137 6115 1978 1992
Mike Tiernan 137 6716 1887 1899
Dolph Camilli 136 6352 1933 1945
Mo Vaughn 132 6410 1991 2003
Juan Gonzalez 132 7155 1989 2005
Rico Carty 132 6318 1963 1979
Bill Nicholson 132 6418 1936 1953
Tony Oliva 131 6879 1962 1976
Magglio Ordonez 129 6502 1997 2008 A
David Justice 129 6601 1989 2002
Bob Watson 129 6962 1966 1984
Ryan Klesko 128 6516 1992 2007
Tim Salmon 128 7039 1992 2006
Kent Hrbek 128 7137 1981 1994
Earle Combs 126 6507 1924 1935 HOF
Scott Rolen 125 6847 1996 2008 A
Eric Davis 125 6147 1984 2001
Rick Monday 125 7162 1966 1984
Ernie Lombardi 125 6349 1931 1947 HOF
Highest OPS+ on the board, 4000-6000 PA

Player OPS+ PA From To
Charlie Keller 152 4604 1939 1952 HOM
Gavvy Cravath 151 4645 1908 1920
Charley Jones 150 4009 1875 1888 HOM
Lance Berkman 147 5792 1999 2008 A
Hack Wilson 144 5556 1923 1934 HOF
Mike Donlin 144 4282 1899 1914
Bill Joyce 143 4149 1890 1898
Tip O'Neill 143 4720 1883 1892
Kevin Mitchell 142 4696 1984 1998
Henry Larkin 141 5302 1884 1893
Jeff Heath 139 5560 1936 1949
Denny Lyons 139 5010 1885 1897
David Ortiz 138 5428 1997 2008 A
Ken Williams 138 5616 1915 1929
Al Rosen 137 4374 1947 1956
Wally Berger 137 5663 1930 1940
Gene Tenace 136 5525 1969 1983
Frank Chance 135 5099 1898 1914 HOF
John McGraw 135 4926 1891 1906 HOF
Oyster Burns 134 5143 1884 1895
John Kruk 133 4603 1986 1995
Danny Tartabull 133 5842 1984 1997
Chick Hafey 133 5113 1924 1937 HOF
Fred Dunlap 133 4264 1880 1891

dgarza

11-08-2008, 07:59 AM

I think dgarza cut me a break thanks!

Hate to rain on your parade, but I really wasn't. I was waiting for responses to my possible picks.

But Murphy is not one I'd remove either. Although he add an additional factor to my choice pick : Do I pick to have two CFers in a row?

jjpm74

11-08-2008, 08:28 AM

Hate to rain on your parade, but I really wasn't. I was waiting for responses to my possible picks.

But Murphy is not one I'd remove either. Although he add an additional factor to my choice pick : Do I pick to have two CFers in a row?

Was there anyone else you were considering or just those three?

Hughie Jennings and Joe Sewell are still unpicked. Al Rosen is about due. Maybe Thurman Munson?

dgarza

11-08-2008, 08:42 AM

Hugh Duffy gets a lot of bonus points from people who are unfamiliar with the fact that offense was incredibly inflated during his most productive time. He also had a very short career. Duffy was one of the stellar defensive CF/OF of his time (perhaps the best).

At one point, James ranked him #20 among CFers and gave him 5 hypo. GGs.

Not that Duffy is above Billy Hamilton, but he did play more games than Hamilton. Duffy's career was not long, nor was it "very short", more middle-of-the-road at worst. From 1870-1910, only 30 players played more games than Duffy.

Superb in the 1892 World's Championship Series, batting .462/.481/.846 in six games.

dgarza

11-08-2008, 08:45 AM

Was there anyone else you were considering or just those three?

Hughie Jennings and Joe Sewell are still unpicked. Al Rosen is about due. Maybe Thurman Munson?Just those 3. I have less of a gap between them than anyone else.

Rosen is the closest of those. Munson is too soon.

dgarza

11-08-2008, 08:46 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy

AstrosFan is on the clock.

jjpm74

11-08-2008, 08:54 AM

I'm posting my queue mainly in hopes of getting some feedback to make sure I'm not way off the mark. There are only a handful of players left that are unpicked that I think are HOF worthy. Some of these guys may have been picked already:

Catcher: Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Biz Mackey, Bob Boone, Wally Schang, Johnny Kling, Ernie Lombardi, Tony Pena, Ray Schalk

1B: Don Mattingly, Frank Chance, Jake Beckley, Norm Cash, Mickey Vernon, Gil Hodges

2B: Larry Doyle, Red Schoendienst, Willie Randolph, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri, Buddy Myer, Cupid Childs

SS: Joe Sewell, Rabbit Maranville, Luis Aparicio, Vern Stephens, Home Run Johnson, Johnny Pesky, Phil Rizzuto, Dave Concepcion, Tony Fernandez

3B: Al Rosen, Ron Cey, Robin Ventura, Sal Bando, Bob Elliott, Buddy Bell, Judy Johnson, Ed Yost

LF: Joe Kelley, Frank Howard, Jimmy Sheckard, Roy White, Charlie Keller, Heinie Manush

CF: Hack Wilson, Willard Brown, Bernie Williams, Wally Berger, Steve Finley, Jimmy Ryan, George Van Haltren, Roy Thomas, Edd Roush, Vada Pinson, Amos Otis, Cy Seymour, Kenny Lofton, Dummy Hoy, Mike Donlin, Alejandro Oms

RF: Rusty Staub, Bobby Bonds, Reggie Smith, Tommy Henrich, Kiki Cuyler, Fielder Jones, Darryl Strawberry

SP: Johan Santana, Hilton Smith, Leon Day, Ron Guidry, Carl Mays, Billy Pierce, Addie Joss, Eddie Ciccotte, Lefty Gomez, Vic Willis, Burleigh Grimes, Don Newcombe, Wilbur Cooper, Urban Shocker, Cannonball Dick Redding, Dave Stieb, Brett Saberhagen, Bucky Walters, Chief Bender

RP: Dan Quisenberry, Lee Smith, Firpo Marberry, John Hiller, Sparky Lyle, Billy Wagner

DH: Hal McRae

My next pick will in all likelihood be Dan Quisenberry or Joe Sewell.

Freakshow

11-08-2008, 09:55 AM

I'm posting my queue mainly in hopes of getting some feedback to make sure I'm not way off the mark. There are only a handful of players left that are unpicked that I think are HOF worthy. Some of these guys may have been picked already:Yes, Grant, Parker and now Duffy have been picked.

BTW, the number sequence has been askew for some time now, since Nettles was removed from #252. The numbers for the last 11 listed need to be corrected.

dgarza

11-08-2008, 10:36 AM

The numbers for the last 11 listed need to be corrected.Done......

dgarza

11-08-2008, 10:37 AM

DH: Hal McRae

Just curious...how far off is he for you?

dgarza

11-08-2008, 10:43 AM

My next pick will in all likelihood be Hughie Jennings, Dan Quisenberry or Bob Caruthers unless they are picked before my next turn comes up.Caruthers is the best of them strictly as players (Jennings has the managerial pluses, however). Despite only 8 full season which were mainly in the AA, Caruthers is not a bad pick with the offensive boost.

jjpm74

11-08-2008, 12:39 PM

Just curious...how far off is he for you?

I'd place him around #300. He's not someone I'd remove if he were added at this point.

STLCards2

11-08-2008, 12:40 PM

3B: Al Rosen, Tommy Leach, Graig Nettles Ron Cey, Robin Ventura, Sal Bando, Bob Elliott, Buddy Bell, Judy Johnson, Ed Yost

.

Surely Rolen (6,000 AB's - a little lowish), 7 rightfully earned GGs, and 125 ERA+) has got to be in that list somewhere.

He might be in my next 10 guys.

jjpm74

11-08-2008, 01:27 PM

Surely Rolen (6,000 AB's - a little lowish), 7 rightfully earned GGs, and 125 ERA+) has got to be in that list somewhere.

He might be in my next 10 guys.

I didn't include active players in that list for the most part. Rolen is someone who is probably at least as good if not better than the 3Bs I listed above.

Some other active players who are probably about due: Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Jorge Posada, Chase Utley, Magglio Ordonez, Johan Santana, C.C. Sabathia, Roy Halladay

Erik Bedard

11-08-2008, 02:18 PM

Would you put Jim Ray Hart, Walker Cooper, Dick McAuliffe, Babe Herman, or John Tudor in your queue?

I have no problem with Berkman, Halladay, or Santana. However, I think that the rest have careers too short at this point, and the players listed above are comparable.

AstrosFan

11-08-2008, 04:48 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry
242. Stan Hack
243. Earl Averill
244. Chuck Klein
245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin
247. George Gore
248. Hardy Richardson
249. Jim Rice
250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers

Caruthers added. Freakshow is on the clock. I know it was the 19th century, and he only played 10 seasons, but he hit great and pitched great, and at this point, I see no reason he shouldn't be on. It'll be interesting to see where John Montgomery Ward goes now.

Erik Bedard

11-08-2008, 04:50 PM

I'm predicting 214th.

dgarza

11-08-2008, 05:20 PM

I'm predicting 214th.Funny, so am I.

Paul Wendt

11-08-2008, 07:01 PM

I'm posting my queue mainly in hopes of getting some feedback to make sure I'm not way off the mark.
Still in the pool there are 23 members of the Hall of Merit or 22 plus Bob Caruthers who is provisionally on the ladder here. I have added them to your queue in small print, if necessary (9). Underline marks those in your queue (14) and those the HOM ranks first at the fielding position.

Catcher: Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Biz Mackey, Bob Boone, Wally Schang, Johnny Kling, Ernie Lombardi, Tony Pena, Ray Schalk
Cal McVey, Quincy Trouppe

1B: Don Mattingly, Frank Chance, Jake Beckley, Norm Cash, Mickey Vernon, Gil Hodges

2B: Frank Grant, Red Schoendienst, Willie Randolph, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri, Buddy Myer, Cupid Childs

SS: Hughie Jennings, Joe Sewell, Rabbit Maranville, Luis Aparicio, Vern Stephens, Johnny Pesky, Phil Rizzuto, Dave Concepcion, Tony Fernandez
Grant Johnson, Dobie Moore, Dick Lundy

3B: Al Rosen, Tommy Leach, Ron Cey, Robin Ventura, Sal Bando, Bob Elliott, Buddy Bell, Judy Johnson, Ed Yost

LF: Joe Kelley, Frank Howard, Jimmy Sheckard, Roy White, Charlie Keller, Heinie Manush
Charley Jones

CF: Hack Wilson, Bernie Williams, Wally Berger, Steve Finley, Jimmy Ryan, George Van Haltren, Roy Thomas, Edd Roush, Vada Pinson, Amos Otis, Cy Seymour, Kenny Lofton, Dummy Hoy, Mike Donlin
Alejandro Oms, Lip Pike, Willard Brown

RF: Rusty Staub, Bobby Bonds, Reggie Smith, Tommy Henrich, Kiki Cuyler, Fielder Jones CF, Darryl Strawberry

SP: Bob Caruthers, Johan Santana, Hilton Smith, Leon Day, Ron Guidry, Carl Mays, Billy Pierce, Addie Joss, Eddie Ciccotte, Lefty Gomez, Vic Willis, Burleigh Grimes, Don Newcombe, Wilbur Cooper, Urban Shocker, Cannonball Dick Redding, Dave Stieb, Brett Saberhagen, Bucky Walters, Chief Bender

RP: Dan Quisenberry, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Firpo Marberry, John Hiller, Sparky Lyle, Billy Wagner

DH: Hal McRae
Fielder Jones was a great centerfielder.

Freakshow

11-08-2008, 11:30 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings

I'm not crazy about Duffy this soon, but I left him alone. Jennings has an amazing peak together with a successful managing career.

Erik Bedard is on the clock.

leecemark

11-09-2008, 05:54 AM

--Frank Chance is the only solid Hall of Famer left on the board for me - and he only makes it due to his record as a player-manager. He isn't next on my list though because firstbase is already very heavily represented. 1B is tied with RF at 29 players each for most (excluding pitcher with 70). Catcher is the least well represented at 19. Thirdbase at 20, secondbase at 22 and SS at 23 could also use a little boost.
--At catcher the closest players in my consideration set are Thurmon Munson, Elton Howard, Lance Parrish, Ernie Lombardi and Biz Mackey. At third its Ray Dandridge, John McGraw, Scott Rolen, Robin Ventura and Buddy Bell (or should Bill Madlock be consider now?). At SS its Dobie Moore, Joe SEwell, Rabbit Maranville and Dave Bancroft. Thoughts on any of these players?

BlueBlood

11-09-2008, 07:21 AM

Dandridge/Moore should both be showing up sooner rather than later. You and I can knock them into the list with a one-two punch. ;)

leecemark

11-09-2008, 07:42 AM

--One player who I forgot in my list above is Cal McVey. He would address the shortage at catcher, although it - nor anything else - can't really be called his primary position. His career was a little short, but not exceptionally so for his era. He is someone I've supported for pretty much every Hall project I've participated in, moreso than anybody else left. How might he fare if I went with him next?

jjpm74

11-09-2008, 08:07 AM

dgarza

11-09-2008, 09:27 AM

--At catcher the closest players in my consideration set are Thurmon Munson, Elton Howard, Lance Parrish, Ernie Lombardi and Biz Mackey.
McVey and Lombardi are the only HOFers I have left myself. The next catcher I have after them is Munson, but I have considerable gap between my 2 HOFer-types and any next catcher. Munson is a close HOF "maybe", but him and anyone else is too early.

At third its Ray Dandridge, John McGraw, Scott Rolen, Robin Ventura and Buddy Bell (or should Bill Madlock be consider now?). Given those 3B you are considering, yes, Madlock belongs on the short list. Someone who is missing more would be Bob Elliott.

The players you've mentioned I would keep (even with some reservation) are :
Lombardi
McVey
Mackey
Dandridge
McGraw
Madlock
Moore
Sewell

Freakshow

11-09-2008, 10:34 AM

--At third its Ray Dandridge, John McGraw, Scott Rolen, Robin Ventura and Buddy Bell (or should Bill Madlock be consider now?). Thoughts on any of these players?Absolutely no on Bill Madlock. He was a weak glove, career a bit short. Among his own contemporaries at 3B I would list Bando, Bell, Cey and Harrah before him. I have oldtimers Leach, Cross, McGraw and Williamson ahead of Mad Dog. Modern guys I would list first are Rolen, Ventura and Williams. I also like Elliott, Rosen and Yost more. I would list Madlock in about a hundred places. Not my kind of guy, often missed a lot of games, notorious for being a hot-head and a malcontent.

Erik Bedard

11-09-2008, 03:15 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore

I mentioned last time that I wanted to adress the shortage of Negro League players and shortstops. Two birds with one stone.

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

John Shoemaker

11-09-2008, 04:22 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Jose Canseco

Both Hughie Jennings and Dobie Moore are in the top 10 in my queue so I certainly won't remove either one.

The top 2 players in my queue are Jose Canseco and Ray Dandridge. Both have previously been selected and removed -Dandridge once and Canseco twice. The next 2 gamers that select after me indicated that they are considering selecting Dandridge this round - so I decided to leave the selecting of Ray to one of them and I selected Jose Canseco for the third time.

leecemark is now on the clock.

leecemark

11-09-2008, 07:46 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
Jose Canseco (removed 3rd time)
266. Cal McVey

--OTOH you could have picked Dandridge and had a keeper. Its still way too early for Canseco.
--Blublood is on the clock.

John Shoemaker

11-09-2008, 08:01 PM

If nobody else picks Ray Dandridge before I pick next round I will pick him.

jjpm74

11-09-2008, 09:11 PM

Ray Dandridge would have been a good choice in that he's unlikely to be picked before we get back to you, but it's very unlikely that anyone following you would have removed him at this point.

Canseco isn't someone I'd consider for a while still and his removal here was a good choice. By the same token, Cal McVey was a good choice and is someone I will reinstate if he is removed.

While we wait for Blueblood to pick, I have 4 players on my short list in no particular order: Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Dan Quisenberry, Tommy Leach. I'm looking for feedback on all 4; especially Rusty Staub since there's been very little conversation about him to this point. At this point, I'm leaning towards Tommy Leach, as he was a great defensive player and someone who IMO doesn't get enough attention around here. At least some of the reason is that he was never the best player on his own team. Thing is, how can you ever be the best player on your own team when you spend the majority of your career in the shadows of one of the top 3 players in the history of the game in Honus Wagner? I might add Quisenberry, but I'm not sure how the rest of the group feels about him and I'm not too keen on the idea of adding two relievers in a row (I added Sutter last turn).

STLCards2

11-09-2008, 09:21 PM

While we wait for Blueblood to pick, I have 4 players on my short list in no particular order: Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Dan Quisenberry, Tommy Leach. I'm looking for feedback on all 4; ).

I am past the point of removal unless it is an absolutely rediculous case. I wouldn't remove any of them, however...

I am considering Rolen, Willis, Bridges, Roush, and Pierce.

leecemark

11-09-2008, 09:30 PM

--Leach or Sewell would be excellent choices. Quiz would be okay I guess. I'm not really sure where relievers should be slotted. Staub seems a bit of a reach here.

dgarza

11-10-2008, 05:26 AM

266. Cal McVey

Didn't you have someone else here? I don't remember you picking McVey.

leecemark

11-10-2008, 05:33 AM

--What do you mean you don't remember it? I just made the pick last night.

dgarza

11-10-2008, 05:43 AM

While we wait for Blueblood to pick, I have 4 players on my short list in no particular order: Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Dan Quisenberry, Tommy Leach.
Sewell : Not the best pick, but an OK one. I should not remove. One of the better SS left.

Staub : I don't think he should be making an appearance this soon. A removal.

Quisenberry : Not the pest pick, even for a closer. Like Sutter, he would be a bit too soon. Even though I probably would not remove him, still I would rather see at least 4-5 other closers ahead of him (Wagner, Smith, Franco, etc.). Plus, like you said, your last pick was a closer. I think we can hold off on closers at the moment.

Leach : Although his prime was at 3B, more games were played in the OF. I feel I can't give hime full 3B credit. I could go back and forth on that issue, but I think he's too soon because of that.

In the end, I think Sewell is your best pick here. I have Quisenberry ranked a bit ahead of Sewell, but would rather see you skip another Closer as a pick.

dgarza

11-10-2008, 05:52 AM

I am considering Rolen, Willis, Bridges, Roush, and Pierce.
I'd rank them :
1. Willis - I think he's your strongest pick here
2. Bridges - Interesting choice. Not one of the next 5-10 pitchers I would pick, but still probably deserves to stay.
3. Roush - I should be OK with him here.
4. Pierce - Another forgotten great. About the same as Bridges.
5. Rolen - I'm not so keen on him at this point. I would remove.

dgarza

11-10-2008, 05:54 AM

--What do you mean you don't remember it? I just made the pick last night.Did you change it? I thought you picked Dandridge. Did I imagine that?

leecemark

11-10-2008, 06:04 AM

--You must have. Dandridge was on my list of possibilities, but it was a long list.

John Shoemaker

11-10-2008, 06:42 AM

In hindsight I was the one that should have picked Dandridge instead of Canseco this round and waited to select Canseco until the next round - since Canseco was immediately removed - but Dandridge had already been removed once before so he was no guarantee. But, as I said before if nobody picks Dandridge before I select next I will definitily select Dandridge.

BlueBlood

11-10-2008, 07:30 AM

Might as well try again. Absolutely ridiculous for him not to stick.

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge

jjpm74 is now on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-10-2008, 07:42 AM

I am considering Rolen, Willis, Bridges, Roush, and Pierce.

1. Roush
2. Pierce
3. Rolen
4. Willis
5. Bridges

Bridges I would have to think long and hard about removing. The others would be safe if I were after you.

jjpm74

11-10-2008, 08:14 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach

No removal of Dandridge or McVey for me. Both are overdue.

I ultimately went for Leach mainly because I'm fairly confident that Sewell will be picked in the next round and because I didn't want to pick 2 closers in a row.

For those who doubt Leach's ability, he scored an A+ in defensive win shares at 3B and as a CF. In his era, 3B and CF were defensively similar so it would make sense that he would play both positions. He was also great offensively despite being overshadowed by Homus Wagner. Leach doesn't get enough credit around here and hopefully he is safe here. He is easily the best defensive 3B left on the board and was no slouch offensively.

STLCards2 is on the clock.

Freakshow

11-10-2008, 10:57 AM

This was my take on Dandridge when I removed him at #179:

Dandridge is a HUGE reach here, at least 100 places too soon. The fine work at the Hall of Merit (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/ray_dandridge) figures Dandridge at about 265 win shares, his excellent glove being offset by an OPS+ of 89. He's comparable to guys like Lave Cross and Red Schoendienst.There are many 3B and several NeL stars I would list before him.

As for Leach, he is unique in baseball history as the only man to play 315 games at both 3B and CF - and he played over 950 games at each position! I'm a long time supporter of him at the Hall of Merit. This was my last ballot comment:

He finished ahead of ten HoMers in 1942. I think it’s what Bill James once said, that all-around players get overlooked, while specialists get overrated; voters like that one area of dominance. Modern comp to, but just a bit behind, Craig Biggio, he could beat you in many ways. Longevity, defense and speed, more important in that era, rate him above Groh. Versatility is a plus; it should not be assumed that any typical thirdbaseman of the era could have successfully handled CF. Had a better peak than Bobby Wallace, but his career was a couple years shorter and he had just a little less defensive value. Among OFers with 750 games 1905-14, he is 2nd in PO/G (behind Speaker) and 2nd in FA (behind Clarke). Players with 1300 or more RBI plus Runs Scored, 1902-11:
1—1883 H. Wagner
2—1726 S. Crawford
3—1429 T. Leach
4—1408 N. Lajoie
5—1392 H. Davis
6—1343 F. Clarke
Leaders in Total Bases, 1901-10:
1—2606 H. Wagner
2—2527 S. Crawford
3—2410 N. Lajoie
4—2128 H. Davis
5—2052 C. Seymour
6—1973 T. Leach
7—1933 F. Clarke
8—1911 J. Sheckard
9—1823 G. Beaumont
10—1783 B. Wallace

Not bad for a “glove”.

Here are nine players who should be listed soon. Players in the 3 Halls:
Biz Mackey
Edd Roush
Joe Kelley
Joe Sewell
Willard Brown

Players in the BBFHOF and HOM:
Cupid Childs
Homerun Johnson
Alejandro Oms

Players in Cooperstown and HOM:
Jake Beckley

Freakshow

11-10-2008, 01:00 PM

By the way, this game hit its 3-month anniversary a couple days ago. After 94 days we have 268 listed; that's 2.85 per day.

Thirty days ago we were trying to nail down Mr. 200, so the pace of the game has slowed. This was partly due to losing two gamers last month. Which prompts a reminder that the door is always open for anyone to join in.

In about ten more spots we will cross the Hall of Fame line, the point where the number of eligible non-HOFers on the list is greater than the numbers of HOFers not on the list. So, make your next pick carefully; it will likely be your last pick within the HOF circle.

dgarza

11-10-2008, 01:57 PM

Another way of looking at "next picks" :

Next best player from the...

1860s - ?
1870s - Bobby Mathews
1880s - Jim McCormick
1890s - George Van Haltren
1900s - Vic Willis
1910s - Bobby Veach
1920s - Hack Wilson
1930s - Hack Wilson
1940s - Ernie Lombardi
1950s - Vern Stephens
1960s - Tony Oliva
1970s - Tony Oliva
1980s - Al Oliver
1990s - Trevor Hoffman
2000s - Trevor Hoffman

(obviously some overlaps)

jjpm74

11-10-2008, 02:33 PM

Another way of looking at "next picks" :

Next best player from the...

1860s -
1870s - Bobby Mathews
1880s - Jim McCormick
1890s - George Van Haltren
1900s - Vic Willis
1910s - Bobby Veach
1920s - Hack Wilson
1930s - Hack Wilson
1940s - Ernie Lombardi
1950s - Vern Stephens
1960s - Tony Oliva
1970s - Tony Oliva
1980s - Al Oliver
1990s - Trevor Hoffman
2000s - Trevor Hoffman

(obviously some overlaps)

Focusing on each decade specifically, here's my take by decade:

1860s - Lip Pike
1870s - Tommy Bond
1880s - Jim McCormick
1890s - Deacon McGuire
1900s - Jimmy Sheckard
1910s - Larry Doyle
1920s - Dave Bancroft
1930s - Wally Berger
1940s - Vern Stephens
1950s - Gil Hodges
1960s - Norm Cash
1970s - Luis Tiant
1980s - Frank White
1990s - Jimmy Key
2000s - Trevor Hoffman

STLCards2

11-10-2008, 04:07 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis

Willis and Roush are the two safe HOF guys for me left- I went with Willis, because I am less confident he would have been picked in the nexy 10 spots or so. I would be shocked if Roush didn't go really soon. If he doesn't go sooner, I have a feeling Tony Larussa's best pal will be my next pick.

Hope Sewell, Pierce, and Oliva go soon as well. Not holding out much hope fro Bridges who I apparantly hold in higher esteem than everybody else here.

Some other pitchers on the near horizon: Joss, John, McCormick, Mays, Saberhagen, Shocker, Mullane and Cicotte

Windy City is on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-10-2008, 04:41 PM

I'd rate those pitchers as follows:

Joss
Mays
Saberhagen
Cicotte
Shocker
John
Mullane
McCormick

I would remove McCormick, John and Mullane for sure at this pick, Cicotte and Shocker would be deliberated over, and the ones above there would be safe. That should change soon, though, so in a round or two all of them might be okay.

Freakshow

11-11-2008, 11:42 AM

Highest WARP3 still on the board:

#91 Willie Randolph 116.1
#105 Luis Gonzalez 110.9
#113 Robin Ventura 108.8
#123 Frank Tanana 106.5
#126 Bernie Williams 106.3
#127 Tony Fernandez 106.2
#129 Buddy Bell 106.1
#135 Dave Concepcion 105.2
#137 John Olerud 104.6
#144 Tommy John 103.8
#150 Bert Campaneris 101.9
#153 Jose Cruz 101.6
#154 Rick Reuschel 101.2
#157 Luis Tiant 100.6
#163 Chuck Finley 99.2
#164 Brett Butler 98.9
#165 Jim Kaat 98.8
#166 Harold Baines 98.6
#166 Kenny Lofton 98.6
#169 Jake Beckley 98.2
#170 Scott Rolen 97.7
#171 Rusty Staub 97.4
#171 Ron Cey 97.4

Bill James' highest ranked (approximate) still on the board:

#123 Don Mattingly
#137 Bobby Bonds
#145 Sal Bando
#155 Wally Berger
#158 Luis Aparicio
#164 Charlie Keller
#166 Willie Randolph
#167 Bobby Murcer
#174 Edd Roush
#175 Thurman Munson
#176 Carl Mays
#177 Al Rosen
#178 Ken Singleton
#185 Tony Lazzeri
#186 Frank Howard
#188 Elston Howard
#189 Jim Fregosi
#193 Reggie Smith
#195 Fred Lynn
#196 Ron Cey
#197 Phil Rizzuto
#198 Lon Warneke

500 Player Pyramid top players still on the board (a "3" ranks among the top 253 players)

3+ Biz Mackey
3+ Luis Aparicio
3+ George Van Haltren
3+ Edd Roush
3+ Carl Mays
3 Joe Kelley
3 Addie Joss
3 Luis Tiant
3 Thurman Munson
3 Joe Sewell
3 Bobby Bonds
3 Mickey Welch
3 Willie Randolph
3 Tommy John
3 Leon Day
3 Catfish Hunter
3- Trevor Hoffman
3- Reggie Smith
3- Ernie Lombardi
3- Don Mattingly
3- Jim Kaat
3- Lee Smith
3- Tony Oliva

John Shoemaker

11-11-2008, 04:27 PM

Windy City Fan's clock has now expired - henrich is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-11-2008, 04:33 PM

Windy City Fan's clock has now expired - henrich is now on the clock.

That also puts Windy City Fan on a 12 hour clock from here on out.

henrich

11-11-2008, 04:48 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn
252. Bob Lemon
253. Jack Glasscock
254. Graig Nettles
255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox
257. Frank Grant
258. Bruce Sutter
259. Clark Griffith
260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman

For me he's the highest rated reliever left. Herb Pennock is my highest rated starter, though I have seen no love for him. I'd be happy with Tiant or John, but that seems to have camps of yes and definite no, so I'll go to the safer Hoffman pick who has more of an overall appeal by most posts that I read, and at the same time he satisfies my needs too..um perhaps that should read requirements instead.

henrich

11-11-2008, 04:49 PM

dgarza is on the clock

jjpm74

11-12-2008, 06:08 AM

This is a quick tally of members of the BBFHOF that have not been picked yet:

Luis Aparicio
Willard Brown
Cupid Childs
Larry Doyle
Burleigh Grimes
Home Run Johnson
Joe Kelley
Biz Mackey
Carl Mays
Tony Mullane
Alejandro Oms
Dan Quisenberry
Cannonball Dick Redding
Edd Roush
Hilton Smith
Joe Sewell
George Van Haltren
Hack Wilson

dgarza

11-12-2008, 08:56 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Jim McCormick

AstrosFan is on the clock

McCormick pitched the most NL innings in the decade 1878-1887.

jjpm74

11-12-2008, 09:20 AM

It's way too early for McCormick and for starters, his contemporary with better counting numbers than McCormick (Mickey Welch) hasn't even shown up yet.

I have these pitchers ahead of McCormick:

Johan Santana
Dan Quisenberry
Hilton Smith
Leon Day
Ron Guidry
Carl Mays
Billy Pierce
Addie Joss
Eddie Ciccotte
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Don Newcombe
Wilbur Cooper
Urban Shocker
Cannonball Dick Redding
Dave Stieb
Brett Saberhagen
Bucky Walters
Chief Bender
Mickey Welch

At the very least 1/2 to 2/3s of the above listed pitchers deserve to be listed ahead of McCormick. McCormick is out of the top 100 pitchers all time and might belong by the time we get to the 350s. I'm hoping one of the next 2 participants share this sentiment and remove McCormick.

In addition to being too early as a pitcher, there are still a number of 3 hall candidates that deserve to be listed ahead of an outlier who struggles for marginal support in the BBFHOF and Progressive Election projects.

leecemark

11-12-2008, 09:29 AM

--Agree McCormick does not belong in the discussion yet.

AstrosFan

11-12-2008, 09:46 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams

McCormick removed (1st time), Williams added. I'm glad to see some people agree with me that this is too high for McCormick. Williams is on the short list of best players not picked. Freakshow is on the clock.

henrich

11-12-2008, 04:41 PM

I'm not sure it was worth removal. I'd been okay with him here or in 12 picks, oh well he'll show up soon.

leecemark

11-12-2008, 09:53 PM

--Hopefully he won't show up again too soon.

John Shoemaker

11-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Freakshow's clock has now expired. Erik Bedard is now on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-13-2008, 12:27 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

dgarza

11-13-2008, 01:07 PM

272. Johan Santana
When I saw his name come up is a few people's "next" lists, I was thinking he was way too soon. But now, looking back at what he's done, I don't think he's that bad a pick.

John Shoemaker

11-13-2008, 01:29 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Jim McCormick

Johan Santana and Bernie Williams are both coming up in my queue so of course they are both fine.

#1 in my queue is Jose Canseco but I have already selected him 3 times. According to the rules of the game someone else will have select him for a fourth time - and I hope soon.

#2 in my queue is Jim McCormick. Dgarza selected him at #271 but he was removed. I think he should have stayed. This round I selected him for the second time at #273.

leecemark is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-13-2008, 01:33 PM

#2 in my queue is Jim McCormick. Dgarza selected him at #271 but he was removed. I think he should have stayed. This round I selected him for the second time at #273.

leecemark is now on the clock.

Why? Is it so that an outlier can be forced on the group way too early? If this is the type of shenanigans to be expected in the next round, I hope the next 9 picks are all pitchers before it gets back to you since there are roughly 30 pitchers who deserve to be listed ahead of Jim McCormick. This is a worse pick than Canseco.

jjpm74

11-13-2008, 01:46 PM

Besides for these pitchers:

Dan Quisenberry
Hilton Smith
Leon Day
Ron Guidry
Carl Mays
Billy Pierce
Addie Joss
Eddie Ciccotte
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Don Newcombe
Wilbur Cooper
Urban Shocker
Cannonball Dick Redding
Dave Stieb
Brett Saberhagen
Bucky Walters
Chief Bender
Mickey Welch

We also still have all these players:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1355997&postcount=2375
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1354489&postcount=2364
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1353195&postcount=2321

Who have a better case than McCormick.

leecemark

11-13-2008, 02:29 PM

Why? Is it so that an outlier can be forced on the group way too early? If this is the type of shenanigans to be expected in the next round, I hope the next 9 picks are all pitchers before it gets back to you since there are roughly 30 pitchers who deserve to be listed ahead of Jim McCormick. This is a worse pick than Canseco.

--John, is all that it takes to get in your queue being nominated and removed by someone else? It seems to me that you have assisted in foisting most of the worst placments on this list. Please take a little time and review the players on various short lists and try and honestly evaluate them before your next turn comes around. Jumping onboard with picks that have been denounced by many other participants is a poor way of building a consensus ranking.

leecemark

11-13-2008, 02:34 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
Jim McCormick (removed 2nd time)
273. Joe Sewell

--Blueblood is on the clock

BlueBlood

11-13-2008, 06:27 PM

I like the pick of Sewell, so I'll add to it by putting in another BBF HOF infielder.

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle

jjpm74 is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-13-2008, 07:04 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson

Also considered Joe Kelley, Dan Quisenberry, Red Schoendienst (as a full package), Frank Chance (as a full package), Edd Roush, Scott Rolen.

STLCards2 is on the clock.

leecemark

11-13-2008, 07:17 PM

--Like Doyle and Munson. Both were on my very short list.

STLCards2

11-13-2008, 07:59 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush

I think Doyle and munson may be a tad early, but not enough to get rid of at this point.

Roush is overdue. Wanted to pick Rolen too, but feared he might get booted.

Still looking at Joss, Pierce, Bridges, John, and Saberhagen as top SP choices.

John Shoemaker

11-13-2008, 08:20 PM

Windy City Fan is now on the clock.

jjpm74

11-13-2008, 09:08 PM

Roush is overdue. Wanted to pick Rolen too, but feared he might get booted.

Still looking at Joss, Pierce, Bridges, John, and Saberhagen as top SP choices.

Roush was a great pick. Rolen is probably safe if added next round.

Of the pitchers you mentioned, I like Pierce the best, but wouldn't remove Saberhagen or Joss and would listen to the line of reasoning on Bridges and John. They are too early, IMO, but not so out of place that a good argument in their favor wouldn't help. Especially as we get closer to #300 and beyond.

STLCards2

11-14-2008, 04:53 AM

Windy City Fan is now on the clock.

Oh yes, Windy City is on the clock!:)

dgarza

11-14-2008, 05:04 AM

Still looking at Joss, Pierce, Bridges, John, and Saberhagen as top SP choices.Your 1st three are fine. John and Saberhagen should not be at the stop yet. Their bus does not come for awhile, especially Saberhagen, who is back there with Hershiser and Lolich still.

Tommy John gets some help from pitching for something like 8 decades.
But I still have a problem with a picther who could only manage 3, maybe 4, Very Good+ seasons out of 26. That's only 10%-15% of his seasons. Over 50% of his seasons had ERA+s under 115 (generally under 110). That's over a decade of flirting with mediocrity.

For a pitcher of Saberhagen's caliber, I would like to see more full playing seasons. He threw for 200+ innings in only 4 seasons. He'd have a better career value if he threw more innings, and possibly someone I might consider more strongly at this point.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 07:09 AM

Sorry I missed my turn. I've had computer issues that I'm hoping are resolved.

I agree with recent discussion that Jim McCormick is way too early. A mid-300's guy at best.

I also agree that Munson is too early, about 40-50 places. I would list at least 5 other catchers before him: Schang, Lombardi, Howard, Trouppe and Mackey.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 08:07 AM

We're right at the HOF line.

49 Players in the Cooperstown Hall not yet listed:

Aparicio
Bancroft
BECKLEY
Bender
Bottomley
BROWN W
Chance
Chesbro
Combs
Cooper A
Cuyler
Day
Evers J
Ferrell R
Gomez
Grimes
Hafey
Haines
Hooper
Hoyt
Hunter
Jackson T
Johnson Ju
Joss
Kell
KELLEY
Kelly G
Lazzeri
Lindstrom
Lombardi
MACKEY
Manush
Maranville
Marquard
Mazeroski
McCarthy T
McGraw J
Pennock
Rice S
Rizzuto
Schalk
Schoendienst
Smith H
Taylor B
Tinker
Waner L
Welch M
Wilson H
Youngs

49 Players eligible but not enshrined in Cooperstown:
Allen
Barnes #
Beckwith(n)
Belle A
Bennett C #
Blyleven
Boyer K
Browning P #
Caruthers #
Clark W
Dahlen #
Dawson
Doyle L
Evans Da
Evans Dw
Ferrell W
Freehan
Glasscock #
Gordon
Gore #
Grich
Groh
Hack
Hernandez K
Hines #
Leach To
Magee S
McGwire
McVey C #
Minoso
Moore D(n)
Munson
Murphy Dal
Nettles
Parker D
Pearce D #
Raines
Rice J
Richardson H #
Santo
Simmons T
Start J #
Stovey H #
Sutton E #
Torre
Trammell
Whitaker
White Dea #
Wynn J

dgarza

11-14-2008, 08:18 AM

49 Players in the Cooperstown Hall not yet listed:
Of these, I'd say Welch, Wilson, and Cuyler are coming up soonest.

Erik Bedard

11-14-2008, 08:19 AM

dgarza

11-14-2008, 08:24 AM

I also agree that Munson is too early, about 40-50 places. I would list at least 5 other catchers before him: Schang, Lombardi, Howard, Trouppe and Mackey.Munson is a tad too early for me as well. It's not so much a matter of number of other catchers ahaead of him (because I only have 1 other, maybe 2). It's more a question of quality, especially given his unfortunately shorter career.

leecemark

11-14-2008, 08:32 AM

--We have fewer catchers than any other position. If Munson is near the top of your queue at catcher then he should be near your queue amoung all players. I can see Schang or Howard or Lombardi or Parrish or Mackey or Trouppe ahead of him on a personal list - but not very far ahead. Its a pretty tight grouping.

Paul Wendt

11-14-2008, 08:54 AM

We're right at the HOF line. [at 276. Edd Roush]

49 Players in the Cooperstown Hall not yet listed:
. . .
49 Players eligible but not enshrined in Cooperstown:
. . .
So the group has also nabbed about 50 players not eligible for Cooperstown enshrinement.
275=11x25 (eleven), namely about seven parts HOF, two parts eligible, and two parts not eligible.

I didn't think of this before but I see now that when you list the second decile (between 10th and 20th percentiles) of the hall of fame together with the non-HOFers who are in the same range, that list may run from about #300 to #400 here, and when you list the first decile with non-HOFers in the same range that list may run from about #400 to #1000!

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 09:28 AM

I didn't think of this before but I see now that when you list the second decile (between 10th and 20th percentiles) of the hall of fame together with the non-HOFers who are in the same range, that list may run from about #300 to #400 here, and when you list the first decile with non-HOFers in the same range that list may run from about #400 to #1000!Well, probably not to #1000, although that is probably close to where the worst HOF player actually belongs. I get the impression that if this project pushes along past #500 that there will be some Gamers pushing the limits of their easily-accessed queues. Some of what we then might see:

--Name recognition will become more important, benefiting the HOFers and fanboy favorites.
--The number of Negro leaguers listed will decrease, as we exhaust every name we're familiar with.
--Bill James' position lists may be more frequently relied upon.
--More Gamers will drop out rather than venture into uncharted waters. It would be great if guys like Jim Albright could join in soon.

I imagine the last HOF player will stick on the list well before #1000, probably closer to #500.

leecemark

11-14-2008, 09:42 AM

--I think we have some gamers who are already well past their comfort zone in ranking players. That probably applies to all of us to some degree. I doubt many (any?) of us have firm lists out to 300 - or probably even 200. For some though we may have reached the point of latching on to any name that somebody else mentions. If that applies then I hope they do have the good grace to step aside. Not trying to push anybody out, but if they are out of their depth and unwilling/able to do the homework to catch up....
--Agree there are a few non-partiicpants who would be good additions if we could get them interested. Some of the BBF members who enjoy working the margins of the Hall have not particiapted in this project. Jim Albright, AG2004 and others would be welcome additions.

Paul Wendt

11-14-2008, 10:19 AM

We're right at the HOF line.

49 Players in the Cooperstown Hall not yet listed:

Aparicio
Bancroft
BECKLEY
Bender
Bottomley
BROWN W
Chance
. . .
I see that UPPERCASE names identify members of the Hall of Merit. (J.Beckley, W.Brown, J.Kelley, B.Mackey)

Rather than provide more lists that amount to HOF, not HOM; HOM and BBFHOF; etc
here is another approach.
Among the available HOF members, who beyond the four HOM members enjoys good support of some kind at the HOM. Among the HOM members, who beyond the four HOF members enjoys good support of some kind for Cooperstown.

Hall of Merit members (17)
4 in the Hall of Fame
: J.Beckley, W.Brown, J.Kelley, Mackey
3 among 39 finalists for the pre- and Negro Leagues election, 2006
: G.Johnson, D.Lundy, A.Oms
1 among 200 semifinalists for the regular veteran players election, 2003 2005 and 2007
: B.Pierce

The others (9) have enjoyed no support for Cooperstown afaik.

Hall of Fame members (49? who are sometimes considered as players)
4 in the Hall of Merit
: J.Beckley, W.Brown, J.Kelley, Mackey
4 among the top 25 also-rans in Hall of Merit election 2008 [2009 is now underway]
: J.McGraw, P.Rizzuto, B.Grimes, M.Welch - call it strong support
10 more among the next 75 also-rans in Hall of Merit election 2008
: B.Taylor, D.Bancroft, E.Lombardi, L.Gomez, F.Chance, A.Joss, R.Maranville, L.Aparicio, S.Rice, T.Lazzeri - call it weak support

The two latter groups tallied 273 to 141 points and 79 to 14 points in that HOM election.
A few of the other Hall of Famers (31) must have picked up points in some of the 110 HOM elections before 2008 but I do not have that data handy.

The important point is that while Hall of Merit support for Maranville and Aparicio is weak, that weak support does distinguish them in a good way from nearly 2/3 of the available Hall of Famers for whom there is no support. Eg, at the Hall of Merit there is a weak support for Maranville and Aparicio, none for Tinker and Travis Jackson.

dgarza

11-14-2008, 10:24 AM

--Name recognition will become more important, benefiting the HOFers and fanboy favorites.
Bring 'em on.
I know Jesse Haines from Ed Lopat.

jalbright

11-14-2008, 10:30 AM

Sorry, guys, but this is one project I won't be joining. I've still got other fish to fry, and at this point, this project would demand more of my time for me to be satisfied participating than I'm willing to expend. I do appreciate the kind words and all, though.

Paul Wendt

11-14-2008, 12:41 PM

Well, probably not to #1000, although that is probably close to where the worst HOF player actually belongs. I get the impression that if this project pushes along past #500 that there will be some Gamers pushing the limits of their easily-accessed queues. . . .
Hey, I don't have time consistently to think about matters like rating ballplayers or selecting the best ones (although I do have slow periods like the three days after Veterans Day, so far).

But one thing I do have is a very long queue or three. One of them is career win shares by Bill James through the 2001 season, ie covering 1876-2001.
And your selections #1 to #276 are in my database, essentially as one column with 17000 nulls and 276 numbers 1 to 276.
This I can do quickly (ignoring ties in the cWS rankings). Unfortunately it is little more than trivia. But here it is.

1.
Career Win Shares leaders not selected here
Top 100: 0, 1, 0, 3 (that is 25 at a time; one from the second 25 and three from the fourth 25)
101-200: 4, 8, 10, 14 (" " ; . . . fourteen from the eighth 25)

2.
Career Win Shares leaders selected here
Top 100: 96 selected (some detail just above)
101-200: 64 " " (some detail just above), sum 160 selected
201-300: 32 " ", sum 192
301-400: 18 " ", sum 210
401-500: 6 " ", sum 216
501-600: 5 " ", sum 221
601-700: 9 " ", sum 230
701-800: 2 " ", sum 232
801-900: 4 " ", sum 236 (Schilling, Ezra Sutton, Charlie Bennett, Edmonds)
901-1000: 1 " ", sum 237 (Jeter)

cWS - number of career win shares for rank #n00 (n hundred) on that list
340. (dot means precisely; there is no tie covering ranks 100-101)
287
253
231. (no tie covering ranks 400-401)
208
193
178
166. (no tie covering ranks 800-801)
154
145
(145 career win shares 1876-2001, ranks 994 to 1007 on that list)
(237 of 994-1007 have been selected here, Babe Ruth to Derek Jeter, and 39 others have been selected here.)

3.
When and where did those 39 selections play?, who are not among the top 1000 by cWS 1876-2001?
MLB debut
23: none, dnp mlb (all 23 from blackball*)
6 : 1871 (Start 124 cws, Spalding, McVey, Wright, Barnes, Pearce 3 cws)
8 : 1993-2001
2 : 1948-1949 (Irvin 98 cws, Paige 42 cws)

* If I read correctly that first group of 23 is all Negro Leagues. You have not selected any major leaguers with debuts since 2001, the latest being Ichiro Suzuki and Albert Pujols both 2001.

henrich

11-14-2008, 02:51 PM

I'm thinking of giving windycity some more time. While we are waiting, here's my queue: Let me know your thoughts:

C Howard
1B McInnins, Hodges, Garvey
2B Schoendienst
SS Wills, Campaneris, Vizquel, Concepcion
3B Bob Elliot, Scott Rolen
LF Burkett, Powell (Boog), Baylor
CF Ryan, O'Rourke, Doc Cramer, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Al Oliver
RF Canseco, O'Neill, Gonzalez (Juan), Maris, Baines,
Closers: Lee Smith, Franco
SP Pennock, Hunter, John, Kaat, Blue

These aren't listed in order at their position, just randomly. Also, let me know of any repeats, that I missed.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 03:21 PM

henrich

11-14-2008, 03:28 PM

Burkett and O'Rourke have been on the list for a long time. McInnis, Baylor, Pennock and Blue aren't within 100 places for listing yet; Cramer isn't within 200 places. Also, Boog Powell played 1B mostly.
Sorry about my lack of organization here I was writing in crayon and I got lost on my sheet, and without thought typed him in wrong. Sorry.

Can I assume that the others not addressed are okay in your opinion?

henrich

11-14-2008, 03:30 PM

I understand without comment on why you disagree with me on many of these players, but I vehemently disagree with you on Blue, but I think we've covered that in another thread.

John Shoemaker

11-14-2008, 04:01 PM

According to jjpm74's post #2372 Windy City Fan is on a 12 hour clock so his clock this round has definitily expired.

John Shoemaker

11-14-2008, 04:30 PM

here's my queue: Let me know your thoughts:

C Howard
1B McInnins, Hodges, Garvey
2B Schoendienst
SS Wills, Campaneris, Vizquel, Concepcion
3B Bob Elliot, Scott Rolen
LF Burkett, Powell (Boog), Baylor
CF Ryan, O'Rourke, Doc Cramer, Willie Davis, Vadnear.a Pinson, Al Oliver
RF Canseco, O'Neill, Gonzalez (Juan), Maris, Baines,
Closers: Lee Smith, Franco
SP Pennock, Hunter, John, Kaat, Blue

These aren't listed in order at their position, just randomly. Also, let me know of any repeats, that I missed.

Of course you know that Jose Canseco would be my choice on this list but I'm also glad to see that Juan Gonzalez is coming up in someone elses queue other than mine - I think his time is very near.

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 05:05 PM

I'm thinking of giving windycity some more time. While we are waiting, here's my queue: Let me know your thoughts:

Honestly, I think you've given him more than enough time at this point and if Munson is removed, I hope you at least put another catcher up in his place. As leecemark stated, it's the least represented position. Honestly, there are 5 catchers who I see virtually no separation between, but whatever.

I'm also about 100 slots past anything I've ever done before, so I really am looking for opinions on my queue each round (which is why I've been posting it). I honestly don't feel strongly about anyone at this point. The only people left that are in my personal HOF are Joe Kelley and Dan Quisenberry and both are in the grey area.

The only reason I'm staying in this project is because I'm curious as to who will be the last HOFer listed and at what number.

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 05:06 PM

I understand without comment on why you disagree with me on many of these players, but I vehemently disagree with you on Blue, but I think we've covered that in another thread.

Blue's a one trick pony (to me, the Roger Maris of pitchers). Don't let the glitz of his one dominant season influence you when there are so many other pitchers still unpicked that had better careers than him.

dgarza

11-14-2008, 05:58 PM

C HowardHoward is too soon here. There are active catchers I have ranked ahead of him, such as Posada.

1B McInnins, Hodges, GarveyI would reverse this order. I'd be OK with Garvey. Hodges possibly maybe, if you include his 1969 Mets season. McInnis is no better than Lee May. I'm surprised even to see his name mentioned.

2B SchoendienstReasonable.

SS Wills, Campaneris, Vizquel, ConcepcionNot so hot on any of these. Why not Aparicio?

3B Bob Elliot, Scott RolenElliot would be solid. Rolen can wait.

LF Burkett, Powell (Boog), BaylorOf course, Burkett is picked. Veach? Kelley? 20 others?

CF Ryan, O'Rourke, Doc Cramer, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Al OliverOf course, (Jim) O'Rourke is picked. Now (John) O'Rourke was a CF more so than Jim, and had an impressive bat (but very short career). Do you mean John O'Rourke?
Ryan, Pinson, or Oliver would not be bad picks.

RF Canseco, O'Neill, Gonzalez (Juan), Maris, Baines, Canseco and Gonzalez are going to be hard sells, although I do not think they are as far off as some would assume. Tip O'Neill I like, but he may be a hard sell as well due to his mostly AA involvement.

Closers: Lee Smith, FrancoSolid choices.

SP Pennock, Hunter, John, Kaat, BlueNo to all. Guidry, Cone, or Morris would be better 70s-80s pitchers.

Erik Bedard

11-14-2008, 06:17 PM

henrich

11-14-2008, 06:20 PM

Great feedback! Thanks. O'Rourke was Jim and you're right he was picked-my bad. When we first started this I did a list to 250, but now I'm struggling in certain positions, because I haven't reorganized-crossed names off like I should. I thought Aparicio had been picked. I hope to get reloaded tomorrow, for the next 250 picks. I have rated about 2200 people, but never in order like this, more against their own competition at their dominant position. I'll sort through all of the recommendations and be back in 5 minutes with my latest pick.

henrich

11-14-2008, 06:22 PM

henrich

11-14-2008, 06:23 PM

Blue's a one trick pony (to me, the Roger Maris of pitchers). Don't let the glitz of his one dominant season influence you when there are so many other pitchers still unpicked that had better careers than him.

I'll take another look at it. Thanks for stretching me.

dgarza

11-14-2008, 06:27 PM

Stieb comes up a little short for me-kind of in the class of Dave Stewart.I agree that Stieb comes up short, but more like David Wells. Dave Stewart is much farther down.

henrich

11-14-2008, 06:30 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Steve Garvey

dgarza behind me likes Garvey and he's the number 1 first basemen for myself, and I think it's an injustice that he's not in yet. I hope the Veteran's committee deals him a better fate. My choice at catcher would have been Elston Howard, but Munson, man such a tragic story. I remember my Dad coming home letting me know how about the plane wreck. So sad. He's James Dean for me, cut down in the prime of life.

dgarza is up

jalbright

11-14-2008, 06:37 PM

From henrich:

Munson, man such a tragic story. I remember my Dad coming home letting me know how about the plane wreck. So sad. He's James Dean for me, cut down in the prime of life.

There's no doubt Munson died young. However, he was showing the signs of wear we expect from 30-something catchers, having lost about 20 points of OPS+ in his last 250 games. That type often decline precipitously, so it's not disrespect for the deceased to wonder how much he had left as a ballplayer despite the fact as a healthy human he hadn't lived what should have been half his lifetime.

henrich

11-14-2008, 06:40 PM

From henrich:

There's no doubt Munson died young. However, he was showing the signs of wear we expect from 30-something catchers, having lost about 20 points of OPS+ in his last 250 games. That type often decline precipitously, so it's not disrespect for the deceased to wonder how much he had left as a ballplayer despite the fact as a healthy human he hadn't lived what should have been half his lifetime.
Your points ring true, though I didn't have it in me to remove him...

dgarza

11-14-2008, 06:45 PM

McCormick did not get much support. I'll hold off on him for a second.

Strongly looking at :
C : Lombardi
SS : Stephens
RF : Oliva
CF : Wilson, Cuyler
LF : O'Neill
P : Welch - primarily

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 06:51 PM

I agree that Stieb comes up short, but more like David Wells. Dave Stewart is much farther down.

As do I. If someone did write an article about him stating he is a solid HOF candidate, that person probably spent more time crunching numbers in front of the computer and less time actually going to ball games. Stieb was a good pitcher (and one I probably wouldn't remove here), but his HOF case is about on par with Brett Saberhagen, Dave Cone and a slew of other pitchers from the past 40 years.

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 06:53 PM

From henrich:

There's no doubt Munson died young. However, he was showing the signs of wear we expect from 30-something catchers, having lost about 20 points of OPS+ in his last 250 games. That type often decline precipitously, so it's not disrespect for the deceased to wonder how much he had left as a ballplayer despite the fact as a healthy human he hadn't lived what should have been half his lifetime.

FWIW, I added him when I did on the assumption that he had nothing left in the tank, taking him at face value. That's why I waited until we were outside definite HOF range before considering him.

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 06:54 PM

McCormick did not get much support. I'll hold off on him for a second.

Strongly looking at :
C : Lombardi
SS : Stephens
RF : Oliva
CF : Wilson, Cuyler
LF : O'Neill
P : Welch - primarily

Welch is another waste of a pick who will probably get removed.

Oliva is too soon. The rest I'd be okay with here.

jjpm74

11-14-2008, 06:57 PM

dgarza behind me likes Garvey and he's the number 1 first basemen for myself, and I think it's an injustice that he's not in yet. I hope the Veteran's committee deals him a better fate.

Steve Garvey was an excellent pick here (I actually thought he was picked already) and is someone I definitely wouldn't mind seeing in Cooperstown some day.

henrich

11-14-2008, 07:01 PM

Steve Garvey was an excellent pick here (I actually thought he was picked already) and is someone I definitely wouldn't mind seeing in Cooperstown some day.

Thanks, I hadn't heard much for or against him, but when I saw dgarza was okay with him then for me that became a no-brainer for me.

My disorganization has caused too many errors on my end. I thought Stevens was picked! I would go for him dgarza, but you have a number of good ones listed.

John Shoemaker

11-14-2008, 07:04 PM

McCormick did not get much support. I'll hold off on him for a second.

Strongly looking at :
C : Lombardi
SS : Stephens
RF : Oliva
CF : Wilson, Cuyler
LF : O'Neill
P : Welch - primarily

I agree - I'll hold off on McCormick for a little while too.

leecemark

11-14-2008, 07:12 PM

--I'd remove O'Neill and probably Cuyler. Kiki I'd at least listen to an arguement on. The rest I'd be okay with.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 09:35 PM

Ten 1B I would list before Garvey:

Beckley
Mattingly
Hodges
Cash
Vernon
Olerud
Chance
Bottomley
Grace
Giambi

Also, he's about even with Konetchy, Powell, Taylor and Fournier. If elected, Garvey would be one of the 20 worst players in the HOF.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 09:38 PM

McCormick did not get much support. I'll hold off on him for a second.

Strongly looking at :
C : Lombardi
SS : Stephens
RF : Oliva
CF : Wilson, Cuyler
LF : O'Neill
P : Welch - primarilyIs this 19th century LF Tip O'Neill? Or do you mean RF Paul O'Neill? Or C/Mgr Steve O'Neill? Buck O'Neil?

STLCards2

11-14-2008, 09:41 PM

Ten 1B I would list before Garvey:

Beckley
Mattingly
Hodges
Cash
Vernon
Olerud
Chance
Bottomley
Grace
Giambi

Agree with most of these. Beckely and Chance are due to go pretty soon here, especialy if all of Chance's resume is considered.

leecemark

11-14-2008, 09:45 PM

Ten 1B I would list before Garvey:

Beckley
Mattingly
Hodges
Cash
Vernon
Olerud
Chance
Bottomley
Grace
Giambi

Also, he's about even with Konetchy, Powell, Taylor and Fournier.

--Mattingly and Chance I would definately take ahead of Garvey. Arguable on Beckley, Hodges, Cash, Bottomley and Vernon. Olerud, Grace and Giambi I like Garvey much better.

STLCards2

11-14-2008, 09:52 PM

What do people think of Dave Stieb here? I read an article recently (written by a BBF member, as a matter of fact) that made me reassess my opinion of him, to the point where I now support him for the Hall of Fame.

Stieb is a little lower down, but...

Pitchers I am thinking about for next round -
Joss
Bridges
Pierce
John
Cicotte
Saberhagen

Guys I would not remove, but would probably be a bit early here -
Cicotte
Mullane
Stieb
Rueschel
Gomez
Kaat
D. Leonard
Cone
McCormick
L.Smith
Tiant
Shocker
Welch

Guys mentioned recently I would remove - no questions asked
Hunter
Blue
Pennock
Franco
Guidry
Morris

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 09:53 PM

--Mattingly and Chance I would definately take ahead of Garvey. Arguable on Beckley, Hodges, Cash, Bottomley and Vernon. Olerud, Grace and Giambi I like Garvey much better.What hurts Garvey is his league-average OBP. His top season OPS+ of 137 is lower than Cash's career mark of 139. And he didn't mash enough to compensate; he never slugged .500 and only once was his SLG more than 100 points above league.

Freakshow

11-14-2008, 09:58 PM

Sorry about my lack of organization here I was writing in crayon and I got lost on my sheet, and without thought typed him in wrong. Sorry.

Can I assume that the others not addressed are okay in your opinion?No. I was only mentioning the most egregious listings. There are several other on that list I would remove also.

dgarza

11-15-2008, 04:45 AM

Is this 19th century LF Tip O'Neill? My LFer is thee LFer. I did not mistake his position for any other those others. Yes, Tip.

dgarza

11-15-2008, 04:54 AM

I had Garvey slightly behind, but in the same league, as Bottomly, Mattingly, Giambi, and Beckley. None of them really stood out much from each other.

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 07:06 AM

I don't see a significant separation between Garvey and Mattingly, Hodges and Beckley (the 3 who seem to be the consensus next 3 1st baseman, though in varying order). Cash and Vernon I wouldn't remove. Grace, Olerud and Bottomley are definitely below Garvey.

FWIW, these are my next bests by position. If more than 1 player is listed, it's done alphabetically because this means I don't see a significant break between them. * Means picked but not permanent yet:

C: Bob Boone, Elston Howard, Johnny Kling, Biz Mackey, Lance Parrish, Wally Schang
1B: Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Steve Garvey*, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly
2B: Red Schoendienst
SS: Rabbit Maranville, Vern Stephens
3B: Ron Cey, Scott Rolen, Al Rosen, Robin Ventura
LF: Joe Kelley
CF: Willard Brown, Wally Berger, Alejandro Oms, Edd Roush*, Hack Wilson
RF: Rusty Staub
P: Eddie Ciccotte, Leon Day, Burleigh Grimes, Addie Joss, Carl Mays, Don Newcombe, Billy Pierce, Cannonball Dick Redding, Urban Shocker
RP: Dan Quisenberry
DH: Hal McRae

leecemark

11-15-2008, 07:17 AM

--No major quibbles with your list. Bolded the guys I'd like to see come up in the near future;

C: Bob Boone, Elston Howard, Johnny Kling, Biz Mackey, Lance Parrish, Wally Schang
1B: Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Steve Garvey*, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly
2B: Red Schoendienst
SS: Rabbit Maranville, Vern Stephens
3B: Ron Cey, Scott Rolen, Al Rosen, Robin Ventura
LF: Joe Kelley
CF: Willard Brown, Wally Berger, Alejandro Oms, Edd Roush*, Hack Wilson
RF: Rusty Staub
P: Eddie Ciccotte, Leon Day, Burleigh Grimes, Addie Joss, Carl Mays, Don Newcombe, Billy Pierce, Cannonball Dick Redding, Urban Shocker
RP: Dan Quisenberry
DH: Hal McRae

--I'd put Harold Baines ahead of Hal McRae as "top DH", but I'd remove either of them at any point in the top 300. Maybe top 400 for McRae. Baines is similar as a hitter to Vada Pinson, but Pinson's primary position was CF. A pretty huge difference and Pinson is not at the top of any CF charts I've seen yet (although he shouldn't be too far off the chart).

dgarza

11-15-2008, 07:35 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Steve Garvey
278. Tip O'Neill

Legacy : The Tip O'Neill Award is presented annually by the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame to the Canadian born ballplayer judged to have excelled in individual achievement and team contribution while adhering to baseball's highest ideals.

AstrosFan is on the clock

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 07:35 AM

These are the lists I'm referring to when generating positional lists that I then compare statistically to arrive at my queue. If a player is not currently active and doesn't show up on at least 1 of these lists, chances are they are too early. * Means picked but not permanent:

Players in all 3 Halls (NBHoFM, BBFHOF, HOM):

Willard Brown
Joe Kelley
Biz Mackey
Edd Roush*

Players in the BBFHOF and Hall of Merit:

Cupid Childs
Homerun Johnson
Alejandro Oms

Players in Cooperstown and the HOM:

Jake Beckley

Top 100 Pitchers project highest ranked still available:

Tier 3:

Ron Guidry

Tier 4:

Eddie Ciccotte
Lefty Gomez
Addie Joss
Carl Mays
Tony Mullane
Billy Pierce
Dan Quisenberry

Tier 5:

Chief Bender
David Cone
Wilbur Cooper
Burleigh Grimes
Roy Halladay
Orel Hershiser
Catfish Hunter
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jack Morris
Don Newcombe
Roy Oswalt
Cannonball Dick Redding
Brett Saberhagen
Urban Shocker
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Luis Tiant Jr.
Bucky Walters
Smoky Joe Wood

A quick tally of members of the BBFHOF that have not been picked yet:

Luis Aparicio
Willard Brown
Frank Chance (Player-manager)
Cupid Childs
Burleigh Grimes
Home Run Johnson
Joe Kelley
Al Lopez (Player-Manager)
Biz Mackey
Carl Mays
John McGraw (Manager-Player)
Tony Mullane
Lefty O'Doul (player-contributor)
Alejandro Oms
Buck O'Neil (player-pioneer)
Dan Quisenberry
Cannonball Dick Redding
Edd Roush*
Hilton Smith
George Van Haltren
Hack Wilson

Players who received 50% or more of the vote in the last non-annual BBFHOF vote:

Jake Beckley
Lefty Gomez
Addie Joss
Sam Rice
Vern Stephens
Bucky Walters

A quick tally of members of the HOM still available:

Jake Beckley
Willard Brown
Sam Crawford
Home Run Johnson
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
Dick Lundy
Biz Mackey
Alejandro Oms
Willie Randolph
Edd Roush*
Brett Saberhagen
Jimmy Scheckard
Dave Stieb

Bill James' highest ranked (approximate) still on the board:

#123 Don Mattingly
#137 Bobby Bonds
#145 Sal Bando
#155 Wally Berger
#158 Luis Aparicio
#164 Charlie Keller
#166 Willie Randolph
#167 Bobby Murcer
#174 Edd Roush*
#176 Carl Mays
#177 Al Rosen
#178 Ken Singleton
#185 Tony Lazzeri
#186 Frank Howard
#188 Elston Howard
#189 Jim Fregosi
#193 Reggie Smith
#195 Fred Lynn
#196 Ron Cey
#197 Phil Rizzuto

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 07:38 AM

Legacy : The Tip O'Neill Award is presented annually by the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame to the Canadian born ballplayer judged to have excelled in individual achievement and team contribution while adhering to baseball's highest ideals.

AstrosFan is on the clock

Whether he sticks or is removed, I'd like to hear more on him when you get a chance. What kind of impact did he have on the Canadian game?

dgarza

11-15-2008, 08:11 AM

What kind of impact did he have on the Canadian game?I'm not sure what you mean by this. Tip O'Neill did not "bring" the game to Canada, if that's what you are asking. Baseball had been in Canada for a while before O'Neill was even old enough to "develop" or "bring" the game.

He began playing baseball in Canada as a star pitcher. He moved to playing in the US and was developed into a star batter, the first Canadian great star.

Later, he served as President of a Canadian league and also umpired in the Canadian leagues.

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 11:18 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Tip O'Neill did not "bring" the game to Canada, if that's what you are asking. Baseball had been in Canada for a while before O'Neill was even old enough to "develop" or "bring" the game.

He began playing baseball in Canada as a star pitcher. He moved to playing in the US and was developed into a star batter, the first Canadian great star.

Later, he served as President of a Canadian league and also umpired in the Canadian leagues.

I mean just what I said; what was his impact on the Canadian game? I know he didn't bring the game to Canada. He obviously had some kind of impact on Canadian baseball, however or there wouldn't be an award named after him. ;)

I don't know too much about Tip O'Neill (other than that his career is on the borderline enough that I'd listen to any extra credit he deserves for off the field contributions). How long did he serve as president? Umpire? What major decisions, if any were made during the time he was league president? What role did he play in these desicsions? Did he draw major league stars to the Canadian league? Was he league president when Ray Brown and other Negro League stars came to Canada to play?

leecemark

11-15-2008, 12:53 PM

--He'd have to have ALOT of extra credit. Strictly as a player he isn't within 100 slots of being a good choice.

AstrosFan

11-15-2008, 01:06 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Tip O'Neill
278. Willard Brown

Brown seems to have the credentials to merit a spot here. I think Garvey and O'Neill are both too soon. I removed Garvey rather than O'Neill on the assumption that if I didn't, he'd stick, while O'Neill could be removed by the next person. I strongly encourage the next in line to remove the former Speaker of the House.

Freakshow is on the clock.

dgarza

11-15-2008, 02:25 PM

He obviously had some kind of impact on Canadian baseball, however or there wouldn't be an award named after him. ;)There's an award named after Hank Aaron and he didn't bring any kind of impact to the game. Neither did Cy Young.
I don't know if you're fishing for something here or just making an assumption.

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 03:01 PM

There's an award named after Hank Aaron and he didn't bring any kind of impact to the game. Neither did Cy Young.
I don't know if you're fishing for something here or just making an assumption.

I don't know why you get defensive any time anyone asks you any kind of question. :rolleyes:

I asked a simple question I do not know the answer to. What impact on the Canadian game did Tip O'Neill have? He served as president of some kind of Canadian league according to you, right? Which one was it? When was it? What level was it? Who were the stars of the league? What teams did he preside over? What, if anything did he bring to the table as league president?

See this? It's a nice article on Ray Brown's twilight years spent in Quebec:

http://quebec.sabr.org/articles_brown.htm

As you can see, Brown had little left in his tank, but still had productive years in Canada and made a splash in Quebec. Did Tip O'Neill do something similar or does he just have an award named after him? If all he had was an award named after him, he didn't do enough to stick here. If he made some kind of a splash in Canada, he did. Now do you see why I'm asking? Please quit it with the constant defensiveness. I asked because I am interested in learning more about Tip O'Neill's impact on the Canadian game.

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 03:02 PM

--He'd have to have ALOT of extra credit. Strictly as a player he isn't within 100 slots of being a good choice.

I agree, but I'd like to know more about him.

dgarza

11-15-2008, 03:30 PM

Did Tip O'Neill do something similar or does he just have an award named after him? If all he had was an award named after him, he didn't do enough to stick here. If he made some kind of a splash in Canada, he did. Now do you see why I'm asking?
Putting this way makes more sense.
Saying "he had to have done something (more) to get an award named after him" makes me question whether or not I'm missing something else, so I had to ask you more more questions to clarify.
Perhaps if you would have been more direct in the first place, I could have answered your question more efficiently.

As I said earlier, he was the first great star from Canada. But as to the extent that the award was named after him, I don't know more of the background, but it seems it was named after him more so on his fame/popularity/skill (similar to the Cy Young Award). O'Neill was active & involved in the game after his playing career (a plus) [President & umpire of/in the Eastern League in Canada, 1910-12?], but he was not some huge mover & shaker in Canada who made significant changes (to my knowledge).

dgarza

11-15-2008, 03:32 PM

As you can see, Brown had little left in his tank, but still had productive years in Canada and made a splash in Quebec. Did Tip O'Neill do something similar or does he just have an award named after him? If all he had was an award named after him, he didn't do enough to stick here.

Yet earlier you said (in response to my queue) :

Strongly looking at :
C : Lombardi
SS : Stephens
RF : Oliva
CF : Wilson, Cuyler
LF : O'Neill
P : Welch - primarily

Welch is another waste of a pick who will probably get removed.

Oliva is too soon. The rest I'd be okay with here.
O'Neill was one of "the rest".

Which is it?

One of the reasons I picked O'Neill is because there seemed to be some support out there (including your support).

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 04:28 PM

Yet earlier you said (in response to my queue) :

O'Neill was one of "the rest".

Which is it?

One of the reasons I picked O'Neill is because there seemed to be some support out there (including your support).

Given that you didn't specify which O'Neill you were referring to, I assumed you meant Buck O'Neil or maybe Paul O'Neill since there are no others with that last name that I could see showing up for about another 100 spaces. I didn't even think about Tip O'Neill. Strictly statistically, he isn't even close and it doesn't sound like he has uch extra credit going for him based on your reply.

dgarza

11-15-2008, 04:37 PM

Given that you didn't specify which O'Neill you were referring to, I assumed you meant Buck O'Neil or maybe Paul O'Neill since there are no others with that last name that I could see showing up for about another 100 spaces. I didn't even think about Tip O'Neill. Strictly statistically, he isn't even close and it doesn't sound like he has uch extra credit going for him based on your reply.That doesn't seem fair to me that you assumed it was some other player. Not since I clearly said LF and spelled his name out O'Neill (correctly, with two "L"s). Neither Buck O'Neil nor Paul O'Neill fit that description.
At least 1 other gamer also mentioned Tip O'Neill as a possibility. Freakshow asked for clarification.

jjpm74

11-15-2008, 04:56 PM

That doesn't seem fair to me that you assumed it was some other player. Not since I clearly said LF and spelled his name out O'Neill (correctly, with two "L"s). Neither Buck O'Neil nor Paul O'Neill fit that description.
At least 1 other gamer also mentioned Tip O'Neill as a possibility. Freakshow asked for clarification.

What's not fair about it? It's not my fault you were overly vague and just assumed everyone would figure it out. I thought you got the field wrong or were thinking of someone else. Like I said. Tip O'Neill didn't even occur to me and that's because he's way too early and probably going to be removed. If you want advice on players, particularly those with common names, I strongly suggest you take the extra 10 seconds to type out their first and last names.

jalbright

11-15-2008, 05:15 PM

Guys, let's stop the discussion about how specific certain questions and responses were and move on. This is declining into a playground-style "yes you did", "no I didn't" discussion, and I expect better here. Thank you.

Paul Wendt

11-15-2008, 05:50 PM

I mean just what I said; what was his impact on the Canadian game? I know he didn't bring the game to Canada. He obviously had some kind of impact on Canadian baseball, however or there wouldn't be an award named after him. ;)
I don't know about the award. It is not mentioned in the short SABR biography by Bob Tiemann and Wm Akin (19c Stars, 1989).

Tip O'Neill was from Woodstock in SW Ontario where baseball was already the national game when he was a lad. According to Tiemann & Akin, he relocated to Montreal after his mlb career, with mother and siblings. There he played in some minor leagues (Montreal city or Quebec province and New England?) He served both as president of the Eastern League club in Montreal (no date) and as 1910-1912 umpire in the Eastern League. That "Eastern League" soon became the "International League" or Association. The EL, AA, and PCL were the three highest minor leagues.

Vaguely I recall that the president of the Eastern League was Pat Powers until about 1910. He was also the (founding) president of the N.A. Professional Baseball Leagues, the organization of all minor leagues created in 1901 to try to fight for their own amid the NL-AL war (when the NL unilaterally abrogated the National Agreement, ie scrapped the organized baseball system that it had created during the preceding twenty years.

(O'Neill died in 1915 but there is plenty of time here for service as president and umpire in "the Canadian League", which I don't know.)

--
Tip O'Neill used one of the smallest bats in history. Given his popularity, at least in St Louis in Canada, I wonder why that did not catch on with anyone. Only about 75 years later everyone adopted much smaller bats.

Tip O'Neill was a terrible slider. Probably it cost him durability and longevity. During his conversion from pitcher to batter he suffered from sore arm and sore legs. For a while in 1885(?) he needed a pinch-runner every time he batted (batted? or reached base?).

Was he league president when Ray Brown and other Negro League stars came to Canada to play?
No. He died on a Montreal street in 1915, heart attack.

When did Ray Brown and other black Americans play in Canada? (I know of barnstorming in Western Canada, north of MN and ND, in John Donaldson's time, but I suppose you mean something else.)

If the racial question is going to be part of the assessment of Tip O'Neill we should check out the St Louis Browns boycott of the Cuban Giants in 1887(?), after but not long after the Cap Anson affairs. Was O'Neill one of the ringleaders or one of those who cooperated under duress? (I recall reading that some signed under duress.) Note, I don't know that there is a reliable historical treatment. Some writers would assume from birthplace: Bob Caruthers, Tennessee, must be ringleader; Tip O'Neill, from Ontario, must be under duress. But that would not be good enough for me and it should not be good enough for anyone.

John Shoemaker

11-16-2008, 01:07 PM

Freakshow's clock has now run out. This is the second time in a row his clock has expired. According to the rules of the game he will now be put on a 12 hour clock.

Erik Bedard is now on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-16-2008, 01:18 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms (removed Tip O'Neill, 1st time)

John Shoemaker is on the clock.

John Shoemaker

11-16-2008, 02:18 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms
279. Tip O'Neill (Reinstated)
280. Dave Kingman

Tip O'Neill is not in the top few in my queue but he is very close so I reinstated him.

#1 in my queue is still Jose Canseco. I have already selected him 3 times so someone else will have to select him a fourth time.

#2 in my queue is Jim McCormick. He has already been removed twice and as I stated in post #2434 I'm going to hold off selecting him for a little while - at least for this round.

#3 in my queue is Dave Kingman. I selected him this round - IMO he should be in our top 300 as should Jose Canseco and Jim McCormick.

Leecemark is now on the clock.

Erik Bedard

11-16-2008, 03:27 PM

Discussion of Kingman and Canseco here (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41140&page=27) (starting at post 663). I'd recommend reading through it and hopefully reconsidering your opinion of both players.

leecemark

11-16-2008, 07:32 PM

--Kingman:eek::confused::noidea. Why you would reinstate O'Neill who has received no other support - and when you admit he is not near the top of your queue - is baffling. That poor decision is quickly pushed into the background by your selection of Kingman though. Single worst selection to date. At least 200 and maybe twice that too soon for this one trick pony.
--I'm too disgusted by the way things are going recently to decide what to do right now. I'll probably have a pick in the morning.

John Shoemaker

11-16-2008, 07:48 PM

jjpm74

11-16-2008, 09:32 PM

By not near the top in my queue I ment not in the top 5. O'Neill is still in the top 10 in my queue and I thought that was close enough to reinstate him.

Maybe you could post this queue of yours. It'd be nice to see what your next 20-30 are. ;)

Freakshow

11-16-2008, 09:34 PM

The listing of Kingman, and the lack of universal condemnation of it, makes me wonder how seriously/conscientiously that research is being undertaken by some Gamers. Kingman isn't due up for another 500 places or so. Yes, it's that weak. His case has been discussed on this forum at various times, like here. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40309)

Similarly, but not as egregious, is the listing of Tip O'Neill. A nice hitting peak in a weak league in the late 1880's, but that's the extent of his case. Maybe 100 places from now. He's not in any of the three Halls and is unlikely to ever make any of them.

AstrosFan

11-16-2008, 10:16 PM

Jeez, Freakshow. What have you got against surly sluggers who are the very definition of one-dimensional? :)

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 05:06 AM

The listing of Kingman, and the lack of universal condemnation of it, makes me wonder how seriously/conscientiously that research is being undertaken by some Gamers. Kingman isn't due up for another 500 places or so. Yes, it's that weak. His case has been discussed on this forum at various times, like here. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40309)

Looking at his 2 top candidates (Canseco, Kingman), the home run seems to be extremely important to him in determining his picks. Also looking at the rest of his queue (O'Neill, etc...), it looks like it consists of anyone posted then removed by someone else. If that's not the case, please post your queue, John.

leecemark

11-17-2008, 05:32 AM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy
262. Hugh Duffy
263. Bob Caruthers
264. Hughie Jennings
265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey
267. Ray Dandridge
268. Tommy Leach
269. Vic Willis
270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms
Tip O'Neill (Removed 2nd time)
279. Dave Kingman
280. Rabbit Maranville

--Kingman is worse than O'Neill, but O'Neill doesn't belong and I assume that Kong gets the hook next. His sticking here would be the death knell of the project for me. Blueblood is on the clock.

leecemark

11-17-2008, 05:39 AM

C: Howard, Schang, Parrish
1B: Chance, Mattingly
2B: Schoendienst, Lazzeri
3B: Bando, Bell, Rosen
SS: Stephens, Conception, Long
LF: Rice, Keller
CF: Berger, Wilson
RF: Craveth
SP: Grimes, Welch, Mullane, Smith, Donaldson, Brdiges, Gomez, Guidry. Quisenberry
--Anybody outside this group would need a compelling argument not to be removed by me.

Freakshow

11-17-2008, 06:04 AM

LF: Rice, Keller
--Anybody outside this group would need a compelling argument not to be removed by me.Joe Kelley is WAY overdue for listing, ahead of these two.

leecemark

11-17-2008, 06:35 AM

Freakshow

11-17-2008, 07:36 AM

--You may be right, but simply saying so is not exactly a compelling argument. We need to have more discussion and particularly pre-pick discussion in this thread. Too many candidates are popping up without discussion or justification. We've had a few bad picks along the way, but we seem to be reaching a point where the bad picks are becoming so frequent as to prevent proper pruning. Anybody who can't present a queue and be prepared to defend their selections at this point is probably someone who should be ready to say its been fun but I've gone as far as I can with it.In his prime, Joe Kelley was among the game's elite offensive players. Top OPS+, 1893-1902, 3500+ PA:

Cnt Player OPS+ RC OBP SLG SB PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Ed Delahanty 169 1289 .446 .552 316 6004 1893 1902
2 Jesse Burkett 148 1193 .445 .483 296 6413 1893 1902
3 Joe Kelley 144 1017 .427 .492 378 5680 1893 1902
4 Billy Hamilton 141 848 .472 .448 512 4945 1893 1901
5 John McGraw 138 677 .477 .418 415 4438 1893 1902
6 Willie Keeler 135 984 .414 .462 371 5731 1893 1902
7 Fred Clarke 131 764 .395 .445 318 5048 1894 1902
8 George Davis 131 858 .392 .461 385 5331 1893 1902
9 Elmer Smith 129 687 .408 .450 202 4330 1893 1901
10 Jake Beckley 125 838 .377 .455 168 5641 1893 1902
11 Kip Selbach 125 760 .394 .439 276 5113 1894 1902
12 Hughie Jennings 124 645 .412 .429 318 4592 1893 1902
13 Bill Lange 123 586 .401 .459 399 3609 1893 1899
14 George Van Haltre 121 849 .392 .422 343 5755 1893 1902
15 Hugh Duffy 120 799 .394 .460 292 4855 1893 1901 During most of this period, Kelley played in a contracted league which made it difficult to compile a stratospheric OPS+.

John Shoemaker

11-17-2008, 07:43 AM

Looking at his 2 top candidates (Canseco, Kingman), the home run seems to be extremely important to him in determining his picks. Also looking at the rest of his queue (O'Neill, etc...), it looks like it consists of anyone posted then removed by someone else. If that's not the case, please post your queue, John.

I never analized it like that

Here are the top 10 in my queue:

1. Jose Canseco
2. Jim McCormick
3. Dave Kingman
4. Mickey Welch (who I will probably be voting for this round)
5. Bobby Mathews
6. Tip O'Neill
7. Juan Gonzalez
8. Steve Garvey
9. Jim Kaat
10. Tommy John

In checking my last couple rounds I said when I voted that in my queue were:

Round 33: Johan Santana and Bernie Williams
Round 32: Dobie Moore and Hughie Jennings

Freakshow

11-17-2008, 07:44 AM

The Bill James Handbook 2009 is now on the market. Active players with 250+ Win Shares:

WS Listing
422 139 Gary Sheffield rf
405 68 Frank Thomas 1b
399 26 Alex Rodriguez ss
398 18 Greg Maddux p
396 52 Ken Griffey cf
379 147 Manny Ramirez rf
349 92 Chipper Jones 3b
341 158 Jim Thome 1b
339 180 Jeff Kent 2b
322 44 Randy Johnson p
321 98 Ivan Rodriguez c
320 167 Derek Jeter ss
318 --- Luis Gonzalez lf
314 150 Tom Glavine p
302 --- Jason Giambi 1b
298 199 Carlos Delgado 1b
294 179 Vlad Guerrero rf
293 238 Jim Edmonds cf
289 --- Bobby Abreu rf
288 173 John Smoltz p
286 --- Brian Giles rf
277 --- Moises Alou lf
276 121 Albert Pujols 1b
270 177 Mike Mussina p
267 --- Omar Vizquel ss
261 255 Todd Helton 1b
256 --- Scott Rolen 3b
255 --- Johnny Damon cf
252 67 Pedro Martinez pPlayers last active in 2007 with 200+ career Win Shares

WS Listing
705 9 Barry Bonds lf
437 21 Roger Clemens p
428 72 Craig Biggio 2b
325 49 Mike Piazza c
322 182 Sammy Sosa rf
297 --- Steve Finley cf
288 --- Kenny Lofton cf
280 --- Julio Franco 2b
252 172 Curt Schilling p
237 --- Shawn Green rf
230 --- Ryan Klesko lf
210 --- David Wells p
209 --- Reggie Sanders rf

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 10:08 AM

I never analized it like that

Here are the top 10 in my queue:

1. Jose Canseco
2. Jim McCormick
3. Dave Kingman
4. Mickey Welch (who I will probably be voting for this round)
5. Bobby Mathews
6. Tip O'Neill
7. Juan Gonzalez
8. Steve Garvey
9. Jim Kaat
10. Tommy John

In checking my last couple rounds I said when I voted that in my queue were:

Round 33: Johan Santana and Bernie Williams
Round 32: Dobie Moore and Hughie Jennings

What are you looking at/consulting/using to help develop your queue?

Looking at that list, I see 2 one trick ponies, 3 19th century pitchers who happened to compile a lot of wins, a 1st baseman and 2 pitchers from the 70s and 80s who aren't bad picks here, Steve Garvey and Juan Gone.

While Kaat and John wouldn't be bad here, even with them, there are better alternatives still available.

Freakshow

11-17-2008, 10:57 AM

What are you looking at/consulting/using to help develop your queue?These are five of the top six pitchers in wins still on the board. The other is Tony Mullane.

2. Jim McCormick 265
4. Mickey Welch 307
5. Bobby Mathews 297
9. Jim Kaat 283
10. Tommy John 288

There are three players with 400+ HR still on the board:

1. Jose Canseco 462
3. Dave Kingman 442
7. Juan Gonzalez 434

O'Neill ranks in the bottom half of the following group, IMO:

Best OPS+, mainly deadball career and earlier, 4000+ PA:

Gavvy Cravath 151 4645 1908 1920
Charley Jones 150 4009 1875 1888 HOM
Mike Donlin 144 4282 1899 1914
Bill Joyce 143 4149 1890 1898
Tip O'Neill 143 4720 1883 1892
Henry Larkin 141 5302 1884 1893
Denny Lyons 139 5010 1885 1897
Mike Tiernan 137 6716 1887 1899
Frank Chance 135 5099 1898 1914 HOF
John McGraw 135 4926 1891 1906 HOFI probably wouldn't remove McGraw, Chance, Cravath, Jones and Tiernan.

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 11:04 AM

[/code]I probably wouldn't remove McGraw, Chance, Cravath, Jones and Tiernan.

McGraw and Chance get extra credit for their managerial work. Cravath I can see depending on how much credit he's assigned for minor league banishment. Charley Jones I already know the case for thanks largely to AG2004 and Classic. Why would you let Tiernan slide here? He seems a better fit with the bottom half of that group.

BlueBlood

11-17-2008, 11:27 AM

Let's see what happens. Something's telling me to do this despite their still being a good bit of overdue outfielders.

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy - 262. Hugh Duffy - 263. Bob Caruthers - 264. Hughie Jennings - 265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey - 267. Ray Dandridge - 268. Tommy Leach - 269. Vic Willis - 270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms
(Dave Kingman - Removed 1st Time)
279. Rabbit Maranville
280. Vern Stephens

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 12:01 PM

This is my updated queue now that several of my front runners were picked. Bold are guys on my short list for this round. I'll pick sometime tonight after I've received some feedback on my short list:

C: Bob Boone, Elston Howard, Johnny Kling, Biz Mackey, Lance Parrish, Wally Schang
1B: Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Steve Garvey, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly
2B: Johnny Evers, Red Schoendienst
SS: Luis Aparicio Phil Rizzuto, Johnny Pesky
3B: Ron Cey, Scott Rolen, Al Rosen, Robin Ventura
LF: Joe Kelley, Charlie Keller, Jimmy Sheckard, Charley Jones, Lefty O'Doul
CF: Wally Berger, Lip Pike, Hack Wilson, Vada Pinson, Amos Otis
RF: Rusty Staub, Bobby Bonds, Reggie Smith, Brian Giles
P: Eddie Ciccotte, Leon Day, Burleigh Grimes, Addie Joss, Carl Mays, Don Newcombe, Billy Pierce, Cannonball Dick Redding, Urban Shocker
RP: Dan Quisenberry
DH: Hal McRae, Harold Baines

Freakshow

11-17-2008, 12:12 PM

Why would you let Tiernan slide here? He seems a better fit with the bottom half of that group.Mainly career length; he's the only 19th century player above 5500 PA and +125 OPS+ who's not on the list. An elite hitter in his prime.

Top OPS+, 1888-97, 3600+ PA:

Cnt Player OPS+ RC OBP SLG PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+
1 Dan Brouthers 158 779 .441 .493 4366 1888 1896
2 Roger Connor 145 875 .408 .486 5205 1888 1897
3 Billy Hamilton 145 944 .458 .445 5641 1888 1897
4 Ed Delahanty 144 954 .401 .501 5172 1888 1897
5 Sam Thompson 143 890 .386 .504 5009 1888 1897
6 Mike Tiernan 142 932 .401 .472 5651 1888 1897
7 Jesse Burkett 139 796 .432 .477 4423 1890 1897
8 Denny Lyons 138 631 .411 .438 4236 1888 1897
9 Elmer Smith 133 590 .410 .457 3660 1888 1897
10 Oyster Burns 131 585 .370 .439 4032 1888 1895
11 Cupid Childs 130 725 .438 .419 4816 1888 1897
12 George Davis 128 725 .380 .457 4631 1890 1897
13 Hugh Duffy 128 998 .396 .468 5924 1888 1897
14 Jimmy Ryan 128 857 .386 .460 5490 1888 1897
15 George Van Haltre 127 887 .395 .442 5725 1888 1897Also, he did not have the luxury of playing in the easier AA. In fact, most of his prime was played in a contracted MLB. Very similar to, just a step behind, #165 on the list. Career 76.2 WARP3 and 302 Win Shares (schedule adjusted). He's about as good as...

Vern Stephens, for whom I've never gotten on the bandwagon. A fine hitter for a shortstop, but 1949 was the only MVP-caliber season. There's a lot of air in his stats, for the war seasons 1943-45 and the Fenway seasons 1948-50. Career wasn't very long, only 1720 games. Average glove. It all tallies to a career of 77.4 WARP3 and 270 Win Shares (war and schedule adjusted).

There are worse players on the list than these two. But I wouldn't put them in the top 300.

John Shoemaker

11-17-2008, 12:52 PM

BlueBlood

11-17-2008, 01:32 PM

George Van Haltren hasn't been listed yet. Great peak & career value, certainly far ahead of a lot of the outfielders some of you have listed in your lengthy queues. Must've been an oversight on your parts.

Paul Wendt

11-17-2008, 02:52 PM

jjpm #2485:
That "short list" isn't short enough!

George Van Haltren hasn't been listed yet. Great peak & career value, certainly far ahead of a lot of the outfielders some of you have listed in your lengthy queues. Must've been an oversight on your parts.
When did George Van Haltren peak?
Maybe in 1887 but he didn't arrive until late June and he was not yet a major league quality batter.

Maybe in 1890 went J.M. Ward sent him back to the mound: an above-average pitcher in the Players League, after a full season without throwing one pitch in earnest. Not bad. Au contraire, that's impressive. But presumably thanks to the pitching he did not play every day, only 67 outfield games, 3 shortstop games, 92 total.
(I presume that teammate-shortstop J.M. Ward was the primary decision-maker. The team is sometimes called "Ward's Wonders" and J.M. was president of the League.)

Van Haltren was a mediocre centerfielder and he never batted 140. So I don't see a peak except for odd early days on the mound. I will happily call him a very good player in his prime, mid-1887 to 1898.

add:
Peak 1896-1898, as Freakshow explained soon below. That peak is obscured by the 132-game schedules in effect for 1893-97. Schedules for those peak seasons 1896-98 called for 132, 132, and 154 games.

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 02:59 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy - 262. Hugh Duffy - 263. Bob Caruthers - 264. Hughie Jennings - 265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey - 267. Ray Dandridge - 268. Tommy Leach - 269. Vic Willis - 270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms
279. Rabbit Maranville
280. Vern Stephens
281. Dan Quisenberry

Dan Quisenberry was a 5 time rolaids reliever of the year winner, has a career 145 ERA+, and is the only releiver not in the HOF who deserves to be there based on who else they have elected who is not currently active.

STLCards2 is on the clock.

STLCards2

11-17-2008, 03:51 PM

1. Babe Ruth - 2. Ty Cobb - 3. Willie Mays - 4. Honus Wagner - 5. Ted Williams
6. Mickey Mantle - 7. Hank Aaron - 8. Walter Johnson - 9. Barry Bonds - 10. Josh Gibson
11. Stan Musial - 12. Lou Gehrig - 13. Oscar Charleston - 14. Rogers Hornsby - 15. Lefty Grove
16. Mike Schmidt - 17. Tris Speaker - 18. Greg Maddux - 19. Eddie Collins - 20. Joe DiMaggio
21. Roger Clemens - 22. Jimmie Foxx - 23. Cy Young - 24. Frank Robinson - 25. Yogi Berra
26. Alex Rodriguez - 27. Pete Alexander - 28. Mel Ott - 29. Napoleon Lajoie - 30. Johnny Bench
31. Christy Mathewson - 32. Joe Morgan - 33. Cap Anson - 34. Tom Seaver - 35. Satchel Paige
36. Jackie Robinson - 37. John "Pop" Lloyd - 38. Turkey Stearnes - 39. Dan Brouthers - 40. Rickey Henderson
41. Warren Spahn - 42. George Brett - 43. Cal Ripken, Jr - 44. Randy Johnson - 45. Eddie Mathews
46. Steve Carlton - 47. Hank Greenberg - 48. Ed Delahanty - 49. Mike Piazza - 50. Kid Nichols
51. Arky Vaughan - 52. Ken Griffey Jr. - 53. Al Kaline - 54. Pete Rose - 55. Reggie Jackson
56. Tony Gwynn - 57. Charlie Gehringer - 58. Bob Feller - 59. Smokey Joe Williams - 60. Carl Yastrzemski
61. Mickey Cochrane - 62. Wade Boggs - 63. Frankie Frisch - 64. Duke Snider - 65. Sam Crawford
66. Bob Gibson - 67. Pedro Martinez - 68. Frank Thomas - 69. Robin Yount - 70. Johnny Mize
71. Roberto Clemente - 72. Craig Biggio - 73. Jeff Bagwell - 74. Carl Hubbell - 75. Nolan Ryan
76. Buck Leonard - 77. Roy Campanella - 78. Sandy Koufax - 79. Buck Ewing - 80. Harmon Killebrew
81. Ernie Banks - 82. Eddie Murray - 83. Home Run Baker - 84. Robin Roberts - 85. Martin Dihigo
86. Willie McCovey - 87. Rod Carew - 88. Eddie Plank - 89. Jim Palmer - 90. Paul Waner
91. Tim Raines - 92. Chipper Jones - 93. King Kelly - 94. George Wright - 95. Bert Blyleven
96. Harry Heilmann - 97. Roger Connor - 98. Ivan Rodriguez - 99. Gary Carter - 100. Cristobal Torriente
101. Carlton Fisk - 102. Billy Hamilton - 103. Gaylord Perry - 104. Ron Santo - 105. Ed Walsh
106. Al Simmons - 107. Willie Stargell - 108. Roberto Alomar - 109. Jesse Burkett - 110. Mule Suttles
111. Barry Larkin - 112. Joe Cronin - 113. Mariano Rivera - 114. Phil Niekro - 115. Mark McGwire
116. Tim Keefe - 117. Alan Trammell - 118. Mordecai Brown - 119. Cool Papa Bell - 120. Ryne Sandberg
121. Albert Pujols - 122. George Davis - 123. Whitey Ford - 124. Bill Dickey - 125. Joe Jackson
126. Juan Marichal - 127. Paul Hines - 128. Dazzy Vance - 129. Bullet Joe Rogan - 130. Gabby Hartnett
131. Jim O'Rourke - 132. Deacon White - 133. Dennis Eckersley - 134. Paul Molitor - 135. Richie Ashburn
136. John Clarkson - 137. Dick Allen - 138. Pee Wee Reese - 139. Gary Sheffield - 140. Bobby Grich
141. Willie Wells - 142. Hal Newhouser - 143. Dave Winfield - 144. Rafael Palmeiro - 145. Kirby Puckett
146. Hoyt Wilhelm - 147. Manny Ramirez - 148. Bill Dahlen - 149. Fergie Jenkins - 150. Tom Glavine
151. Luke Appling - 152. Don Sutton - 153. Brooks Robinson - 154. Ross Barnes - 155. Joe Medwick
156. Larry Doby - 157. Louis Santop - 158. Jim Thome - 159. Jud Wilson - 160. Lou Whitaker
161. Ozzie Smith - 162. Jimmy Collins - 163. Minnie Minoso - 164. Fred Clarke - 165. Sam Thompson
166. Amos Rusie - 167. Derek Jeter - 168. Joe Start - 169. Joe Gordon - 170. Ted Simmons
171. Billy Williams - 172. Curt Schilling - 173. John Smoltz - 174. Charley Radbourn - 175. Goose Goslin
176. Rube Foster - 177. Mike Mussina - 178. Goose Gossage - 179. Vladimir Guerrero - 180. Jeff Kent
181. Rollie Fingers - 182. Sammy Sosa - 183. Rube Waddell - 184. Red Ruffing - 185. Enos Slaughter
186. Max Carey - 187. Don Drysdale - 188. Billy Herman - 189. Joe Torre - 190. Stan Covaleski
191. Fred McGriff - 192. Early Wynn - 193. Edgar Martinez - 194. Sherry Magee - 195. Zack Wheat
196. Lou Boudreau - 197. Darrell Evans - 198. Orlando Cepeda - 199. Carlos Delgado - 200. Willie Keeler
201. Ray Brown - 202. Jim Bunning - 203. - Al Spalding - 204. Ted Lyons - 205. Eppa Rixey
206. Andre Dawson - 207. Pete Hill - 208. - Ralph Kiner - 209. Tony Perez - 210. Bid McPhee
211. Ezra Sutton - 212. John Beckwith - 213. Heinie Groh - 214. John M. Ward - 215. Wes Ferrell
216. Ken Boyer - 217. George Sisler - 218. Bill Foster - 219. Elmer Flick - 220. Lou Brock
221. Bill Freehan - 222. Kevin Brown - 223. Joe McGinnity - 224. Pud Galvin - 225. Harry Stovey
226. Dwight Evans - 227. Bobby Doerr - 228. Ichiro Suzuki - 229. Dizzy Dean - 230. Dickey Pearce
231. Red Faber - 232. Keith Hernandez - 233. Will Clark - 234. Bobby Wallace - 235. Charlie Bennett
236. Roger Bresnahan - 237. Larry Walker - 238. Jim Edmonds - 239. Jose Mendez - 240. Dave Parker
241. Bill Terry - 242. Stan Hack - 243. Earl Averill - 244. Chuck Klein - 245. Pie Traynor
246. Monte Irvin - 247. George Gore - 248. Hardy Richardson - 249. Jim Rice - 250. Pete Browning
251. Jimmy Wynn - 252. Bob Lemon - 253. Jack Glasscock - 254. Graig Nettles - 255. Todd Helton
256. Nellie Fox - 257. Frank Grant - 258. Bruce Sutter - 259. Clark Griffith - 260. Albert Belle
261. Dale Murphy - 262. Hugh Duffy - 263. Bob Caruthers - 264. Hughie Jennings - 265. Dobie Moore
266. Cal McVey - 267. Ray Dandridge - 268. Tommy Leach - 269. Vic Willis - 270. Trevor Hoffman
271. Bernie Williams
272. Johan Santana
273. Joe Sewell
274. Larry Doyle
275. Thurman Munson
276. Edd Roush
277. Willard Brown
278. Alejandro Oms
279. Rabbit Maranville
280. Vern Stephens
281. Dan Quisenberry
282. Scott Rolen

Windy City is on the clock

I know he is a tad short on career PA, but 7-8 legit Gold Gloves and a career 125 OPS+ from a 3rdbaseman is good to go here. If he can go 3-4 more years and keep his OPS+ near 120, he should be a HOF lock.

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 04:59 PM

Windy City is on the clock

I know he is a tad short on career PA, but 7-8 legit Gold Gloves and a career 125 OPS+ from a 3rdbaseman is good to go here. If he can go 3-4 more years and keep his OPS+ near 120, he should be a HOF lock.

Maybe we should skip windy city fan from here out until he posts as to whether or not he is still involved in this project. He's missed his last 2 turns and hasn't been on the site much lately.

I think that'd put henrich on the clock.

John Shoemaker

11-17-2008, 05:07 PM

Maybe we should skip windy city fan from here out until he posts as to whether or not he is still involved in this project. He's missed his last 2 turns and hasn't been on the site much lately.

I think that'd put henrich on the clock.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 05:12 PM

It looks like WCF has been missing from the site for 10 days. Henrich, you're up.

Paul Wendt

11-17-2008, 05:29 PM

25000 views
2500 posts
Does anyone know how many picks?

jjpm74

11-17-2008, 05:45 PM

25000 views
2500 posts
Does anyone know how many picks?

Figure around 370. This is round 33 and there are currently 11 participants. We've fluctuated between 13 and 11 participants throughout.

John Shoemaker

11-17-2008, 06:03 PM

Figure around 370. This is round 33 and there are currently 11 participants. We've fluctuated between 13 and 11 participants throughout.

We are actually starting round 35 now.

Freakshow

11-18-2008, 07:50 AM

Players with 300+ "raw" Win Shares not yet listed:

399 Tony Mullane p
358 Rusty Staub rf
354 Mickey Welch p
344 George Van Haltren cf
339 Jimmy Sheckard lf
334 Jim McCormick p
327 Sam Rice rf
325 Reggie Smith rf
322 Willie Davis cf
321 Vada Pinson cf
321 Harry Hooper rf
318 Jake Beckley 1b
318 Luis Gonzalez lf
316 Jimmy Ryan cf
316 Jack Clark rf
315 Norm Cash 1b
313 Jose Cruz lf
312 Willie Randolph 2b
307 Harold Baines rf
305 Joe Kelley lf
305 Al Oliver cf
302 Bobby Bonds rf
302 Ken Singleton rf
302 Jason Giambi 1b
301 Buddy Bell 3b
301 John Olerud 1b

I'm working on completing Adjusted Win Shares. The leaders so far are Van Haltren 377, Sheckard 371, Ryan 369, Staub 361, and Vernon 353. Beckley and Sam Rice are probably high up there, as well.

Freakshow

11-18-2008, 08:46 AM

Here is the 20th to 30th percentile ranking of players in the hall of fame:

164. Bobby Doerr
165. Dizzy Dean
166. Red Faber
167. Bobby Wallace
168. Roger Bresnahan
169. Jose Mendez
170. Bill Terry
171. Earl Averill
172. Chuck Klein
173. Pie Traynor
174. Monte Irvin
175. Bob Lemon
176. Nellie Fox
177. Frank Grant
178. Bruce Sutter
179. Clark Griffith
180. Hugh Duffy
181. Hughie Jennings
182. Ray Dandridge
183. Vic Willis
184. Joe Sewell
185. Edd Roush
186. Willard Brown

In post #237 I showed the top 10% in the Hall; in post #452 I showed the 80th-90th percentile; in post #659 I showed the 70th-80th percentile; in post #1056 I showed the 60th-70th percentile; in post #1395 I showed the 50th-60th percentile. In post #1740 I showed the 40th-50th percentile. In post #2151 I showed the 30th-40th percentile. Above is the eighth installment of our ranking the HOF players by percentile, players on the "in" side of the Gray Area. Others ranking in this percentile are Ichiro Suzuki, Dickey Pearce, Keith Hernandez, Will Clark, Charlie Bennett, Larry Walker, Jim Edmonds, Dave Parker, Stan Hack, George Gore, Hardy Richardson, Jim Rice, Pete Browning, Jimmy Wynn, Jack Glasscock, Graig Nettles, Todd Helton, Albert Belle, Dale Murphy, Bob Caruthers, Dobie Moore, Cal McVey, Tommy Leach, Trevor Hoffman, Bernie Williams, Johan Santana, Larry Doyle, Thurman Munson and Alejandro Oms.