#1 pitcher in Cardinals history

[OhioBoy]

Who is the greatest pitcher in franchise history?

[JessePopHaines16]

Bob Gibson takes that honor.

[OhioBoy]

Bob Gibson takes that honor.

Gibby would have to be #1 on my list as well.

[KCGHOST]

I think most of us will get this right.

[StanTheMan]

I think most of us will get this right.

Yep, Todd Worrell it is.

[Extra Innings]

Gibson, hands down. What a season in '68!

[hubkittel]

I think most of us will get this right.

Don't underestimate the Bob Forsch fans on this site (and I do happen to be one of them so I know of what I speak).

[hubkittel]

John Tudor should be included in this poll. Tudes is the Cardinal career leader in winning % and second all-time in ERA. If we throw out guys like Pete Alexander and Steve Carlton, Tudor is probably the third greatest pitcher in Cardinal history behind Gibby and Dean.

[JessePopHaines16]

How did Jason Isringhausen get on this list?

[STLCards2]

How is Mort Cooper not on the list?

[OhioBoy]

How did Jason Isringhausen get on this list?

Isringhausen is the Cardinals all time saves leader with 217. Felt that was at least deserving of a spot on the list.

[OhioBoy]

How is Mort Cooper not on the list?

It was a tough decision who to put on the list and who to leave off. Dave Foutz, Silver King, Bob Caruthers, Slim Sallee, & Mort Cooper were all guys that I was considering for the last spot.

[OhioBoy]

John Tudor should be included in this poll. Tudes is the Cardinal career leader in winning % and second all-time in ERA. If we throw out guys like Pete Alexander and Steve Carlton, Tudor is probably the third greatest pitcher in Cardinal history behind Gibby and Dean.

A nice winning % but only 62 wins with the Cardinals. Felt that was a bit low to be on this list.

[ol' aches and pains]

I think it's safe to say none of us here ever saw Dizzy Dean pitch, but I hear he was something.

I am old enough to have seen Gibson many times, he and Sandy Koufax were the two best I've ever seen. And Gibson had that added intimidation factor. Jesus, he was scary!

[hubkittel]

A nice winning % but only 62 wins with the Cardinals. Felt that was a bit low to be on this list.

It's a fair point but let me make a more complete argument for Tudes.

In 1985, he went 21-8 with a 1.98 ERA and an ERA+ of 184, striking out 169 and walking 49, and finishing second in Cy Young voting. He also started the season 1-7 before getting it together. This is probably the second best season a Cardinal starting pitcher has ever had next to Gibson's 1968 season (it certainly ranks no worse then fourth among all seasons by a Cardinal starter). He had 14 complete games and ten shutouts that year, winning 20 of 21 decisions down the stretch (the only loss coming when the Cards were shut out by the Dodgers).

In 1986, he was 13-7 (on a club that finished three games under .500) with 2.92 ERA and an ERA+ of 126, striking out 107 and walking 53.

In 1987, he was injured for the first half of the season (having one of the classic Cardinal injuries of the 1980's, ranking up there with Coleman getting run over by the tarp and Danny Cox breaking his ankle while fishing; he was sitting in the dugout at Busch, minding his own business, when a Mets player came sliding into the dugout after a foul ball and broke Tudes kneecap). After coming off the DL, he went 10-2 with a 3.84 ERA and an ERA+ of 108, striking out 54 and walking 32.

In 1988, he was 6-5 (for a club that finished 10 games under .500) with an ERA of 2.29 and an ERA+ of 152, striking out 55 and walking 31. He was traded to the Dodgers in August for Pedro Guerrero and blew his arm out.

A free agent after the 1989 season, he signed with the Cards and in 1990 went 12-4 with a 2.40 ERA and an ERA+ of 158, striking out 63 and walking 30. He then promptly retired.

That's five seasons with the Cards, during one of which he was injured for half the year and another when he was traded in August.

For his Cardinal career, Tudor pitched 881.6 innings and went 62-26 (a winning % of .705; best of any Cardinal pitcher) with a 2.52 ERA (the lowest ERA of any Cardinal pitcher with more than 650 IP) and a WHIP of 1.080 (number one among Cardinal career leaders). That's the best winning %, the lowest ERA, and the best WHIP of all-time among all Cardinal pitchers.

In my opinion, he's the third best Cardinal pitcher of all-time, after Gibson and Dean. Certainly we can make arguments for Pop Haines or Mort Cooper or Harry Brecheen (or whoever) but one thing that Tudor has in his favor is that he put up his numbers in one of the toughest baseball environments of all-time, MLB in the 1980's. Cooper put up most of his best numbers during the war years and both Brecheen and Haines put theirs up before integration. I don't think there's any doubt that Tudor was playing in a tougher league than any of the other players we might consider as the third best pitcher in Cards history.

Throwing Gibson and Dean out of the argument, John Tudors' numbers put him at the top among all Cardinal pitchers, his peak is as strong as anybody's, and he did it in a tougher league.

[OhioBoy]

It's a fair point but let me make a more complete argument for Tudes.

In 1985, he went 21-8 with a 1.98 ERA and an ERA+ of 184, striking out 169 and walking 49, and finishing second in Cy Young voting. He also started the season 1-7 before getting it together. This is probably the second best season a Cardinal starting pitcher has ever had next to Gibson's 1968 season (it certainly ranks no worse then fourth among all seasons by a Cardinal starter). He had 14 complete games and ten shutouts that year, winning 20 of 21 decisions down the stretch (the only loss coming when the Cards were shut out by the Dodgers).

In 1986, he was 13-7 (on a club that finished three games under .500) with 2.92 ERA and an ERA+ of 126, striking out 107 and walking 53.

In 1987, he was injured for the first half of the season (having one of the classic Cardinal injuries of the 1980's, ranking up there with Coleman getting run over by the tarp and Danny Cox breaking his ankle while fishing; he was sitting in the dugout at Busch, minding his own business, when a Mets player came sliding into the dugout after a foul ball and broke Tudes kneecap). After coming off the DL, he went 10-2 with a 3.84 ERA and an ERA+ of 108, striking out 54 and walking 32.

In 1988, he was 6-5 (for a club that finished 10 games under .500) with an ERA of 2.29 and an ERA+ of 152, striking out 55 and walking 31. He was traded to the Dodgers in August for Pedro Guerrero and blew his arm out.

A free agent after the 1989 season, he signed with the Cards and in 1990 went 12-4 with a 2.40 ERA and an ERA+ of 158, striking out 63 and walking 30. He then promptly retired.

That's five seasons with the Cards, during one of which he was injured for half the year and another when he was traded in August.

For his Cardinal career, Tudor pitched 881.6 innings and went 62-26 (a winning % of .705; best of any Cardinal pitcher) with a 2.52 ERA (the lowest ERA of any Cardinal pitcher with more than 650 IP) and a WHIP of 1.080 (number one among Cardinal career leaders). That's the best winning %, the lowest ERA, and the best WHIP of all-time among all Cardinal pitchers.

In my opinion, he's the third best Cardinal pitcher of all-time, after Gibson and Dean. Certainly we can make arguments for Pop Haines or Mort Cooper or Harry Brecheen (or whoever) but one thing that Tudor has in his favor is that he put up his numbers in one of the toughest baseball environments of all-time, MLB in the 1980's. Cooper put up most of his best numbers during the war years and both Brecheen and Haines put theirs up before integration. I don't think there's any doubt that Tudor was playing in a tougher league than any of the other players we might consider as the third best pitcher in Cards history.

Throwing Gibson and Dean out of the argument, John Tudors' numbers put him at the top among all Cardinal pitchers, his peak is as strong as anybody's, and he did it in a tougher league.

No question about it based solely on production Tudor deserves a spot on the list. I'll make it a point to include him for the next round as I don't want to leave off anyone with a realistic chance of receiving a vote.

[nl1899fan]

Gibson easily wins ahead of Dean, who would have been right up there had he not gotten hurt.

[dan4fitness]

Bob Gibson

[cardinalfaninNY]

What? No Ray Sadecki?






(Just kidding!)

Definitely Gibby.

[hubkittel]

What? No Ray Sadecki?

I think he and Bob Tewksbury were the last pitchers cut from the poll.

[BaylorDan]

While wondering who Bill Doak is I also wonder why Chris Carpenter is not on the list. And John Tudor should be there too.