Dick Groat

[Cowtipper]

Dick Groat played from 1952 to 1967, hitting .286 with 2138 hits. A shortstop, Groat was a member of eight All-Star squads (although he was an All-Star only five years - he was an All-Star during the era of two All-Star games per season), he won the Lou Gehrig Award and in 1960 he won the MVP Award. In 1960, he led the league in batting average and singles, and in 1963 he led the league in doubles.

Groat is statistically similar to two Hall of Famers, Dave Bancroft and Rick Ferrell. A solid defender, The Baseball Page ranks him as the 40th best shortstop in baseball history.

From 1973 to 1978 he received votes for the Hall of Fame, but never more than seven in a voting cycle.

What do you think? Should Dick Groat be in the Hall of Fame?

[BlueBlood]

Groat is statistically similar to two Hall of Famers, Dave Bancroft and Rick Ferrell.

Come on! I thought you had started to say "viewed as mistakes by many" in your recent polls. Don't slip!

[dgarza]

I voted NO.

But I like the guy and he really deserves a serious look.
A rather under-appreciated SS.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Stick it to Coach K and keep the Dookies out.

Groat was a very good player, probably underrated in history and from many accounts a fine team leader. But he is not as good as a few eligible shortstops on the outside. He doesn't jump Trammell, Concepcion, a bunch of 19th Century/early 20th century guys and probably others I can't quite think of right now.

[BlueBlood]

and probably others I can't quite think of right now.

Taiwanese League? New Zealand University Premier League? Sandlot Players?

[Captain Cold Nose]

Taiwanese League? New Zealand University Premier League? Sandlot Players?

I honestly couldn't think of anyone from those. Not shortstops, at least.

Ok, Tony Fernandez.

[dgarza]

and probably others I can't quite think of right now.There really aren't that many. Vern Stephens.

[KCGHOST]

A noticeably below average hitter. He did have good defensive skills and was widely acclaimed for his leadership. Won an MVP award and finished 2d another time. Clearly the BBWAA liked him. Deserves respect but not induction.

[Freakshow]

In the UQFC we rated Groat about the 20th best Hall candidate from the 1960's. He lost his age 22-23 seasons to military service, so he deserves some credit for that, but those were not prime seasons.

Even excluding Negro leagers there is quite a line of shortstops ahead of Groat:

Dahlen
Trammell
Glasscock
Pearce
Concepcion
Long
Stephens
Wills
Campaneris
Bartell
Fregosi
Pesky
Fernandez
Travis

[Paul Wendt]

basketball Hall of Fame

He was collegiate player of the year in 1951 and he is somewhere in the Top 25, Top 50, or Top 100 basketball players. Previously I found that feature online but I don't find it now. I think it was Sport Illustrated. It was not a list but a serious feature with a short biographical article on every one.

[Cougar]

Groat is right on my borderline...I voted yes, but with some hesitation.

Stats are borderline, but the intangibles are pretty huge.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Groat is right on my borderline...I voted yes, but with some hesitation.

Stats are borderline, but the intangibles are pretty huge.

Groat did NOT have a good defensive reputation, but his defensive statistics are better than I thought. He was at league average (one point below) in fielding percentage, but he displayed EXCELLENT range factors.

On the other hand, Groat was considered a quality OFFENSIVE shortstop, but his Offensive Winning Percentage was only .471 for his career. Bancroft, Dark, and Glasscock beat this by a lot (to say nothing of Trammell and Stephens). Groat won a batting title, and he was the only non-outfielder to win an NL batting title between 1949 (Jackie Robinson) and 1971 (Joe Torre). Groat DID miss 2 years to the military, and had he not missed those years, not only would his counting stats be better, but I believe he would have batted over .290 lifetime; he missed what might have been two of his most productive years hitting for average.

There are some intangibles here. Groat WAS a winning player. He played on a Pirate and a Cardinal team that went all the way. The Cards acquired him in 1963, and they went from the second division to second place (going all the way the next season). But much of what we can say for Groat, we can also say for his contemporary, Maury Wills. Really, if Groat, why not Maury Wills? Wills is almost an exact contemporary in age. Wills had a longer career, and Wills was (accurately, I might add) regarded as the superior player. I find it kind of hard to advocate for Groat if Wills isn't going into Cooperstown first. (And, again, we're not even mentioning Alan Trammell!)