Who is the best defensive player of All-Time?

[LightSpeedOO7]

Who do you think is the best defensive player of all-time?

A few obvious choices could be Willie Mays or Ozzie Smith.

And although it may be hard to compare infielders to outfielders i would like to know who, respectively to their position, was or is the best defensive player ever.

[LouGehrig]

1B Hal Chase
2B Bill Mazeroski
3B Brooks Robinson
SS Ozzie Smith
LF Al Simmons
CF James Anthony Piersall
RF Roberto Clemente
C Ivan Rodriguez
P Robert Clayton Shantz OR Harry Breecheen or Harvey Haddix

[LightSpeedOO7]

this is a good comprehensive list however if you had to pick one person who excelled at his position to a level beyond what other could even imagine who would you pick?

[BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT]

BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT

With that clarification, my friend, a question that
would have required some cogitation, now is a question that is a straightforward no-brainer!

And the answer is: BROOKS ROBINSON!

Period!

As a matter of fact, two periods!!

[LightSpeedOO7]

ok that might be one thing we are able to agree upon.

[researcher]

...Gold Gloves since 1957................

Pitcher....Jim Kaat............14
3rd base...Brooks Robinson.....16

I always liked Ozzie, but in reality there have been many outstanding
fielding SS over the years, same for outfielders, and catchers

[trosmok]

I always liked the pioneering defensive players. James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey was perhaps the finest catcher of his day; without him, Bench, Carter, Campy, Fisk, and Ivan R. might have become in or outfielders. The shortstop position was perfected by Luis Aparicio, and Ozzie Smith would be hard to dismiss as anything less than at least his equal. The hot corner is probably one of the most difficult positions to master; it requires a lightning fast instinctual reactions, a smothering glove, flawless footwork, and a gun of an arm, and the good sense to position oneself correctly for the situation. My guess is that Brooks Robinson did this as well as anyone before or since.

[VELCROHIDE]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-02 AT 12:05 PM (EST)]When you think of the small- barely fitting over the hand-gloves used back in the early 1900s the men playing during those times had to have "good" hands to catch the ball because you pretty much were using your hands and had very minimal assistance from the glove.

So, taking a player from that era I'll go with Honus Wagner. Tris Speaker is right on his heels.

Did you know that Red Schoendienst had a say in the styling of a glove but didn't know about putting a patent on his original idea and lost out on the residual benefits. He wasn't bitter, just figured he'd been blessed in so many other ways.;)

[Kroxquo]

>1B Hal Chase
>2B Bill Mazeroski
>3B Brooks Robinson
>SS Ozzie Smith
>LF Al Simmons
>CF James Anthony Piersall
>RF Roberto Clemente
>C Ivan Rodriguez
>P Robert Clayton Shantz OR Harry Breecheen or Harvey
>Haddix

I will disagree with most of your list. Somewhere on the history of the game forum is an all-time defensive team thread, so there has been a discussion about this. This would be my team:

1B - Gil Hodges
2B - Mazeroski
3B - Mike Schmidt
SS - Honus Wagner
LF - Carl Yastrzemski
CF - Wille Mays
RF - Clemente (with strong apologies to Carl Furillo)
C - Johnny Bench
P - Jim Kaat (with Greg Maddux closing fast)

[LouGehrig]

It is quite difficult, but I guess Ozzie because ss is such a difficult position to play.

[LouGehrig]

I forgot about Yaz (I tend to forget all Red Sox players but Williams), and agree he is better defensively than Simmons.

I am biased and prefer that Wagner would be best defensively at ss, but I really cannot take him over Ozzie. I know he played on bad fields etc., and he used a small glove, but based on readings and historical accounts, he was not as good defensively as Ozzie.

Katt is a great choice, but because Shantz had only one great year and, unlike Katt, did not pitch for a long time, he is not given the recognition today that he was afforded in the 1950s.

Hodges belongs in the Hall of Fame and was better defensively than most playing today, but he was right handed, and “even” Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly were better defensively. That is not to take anything away from Hodges. He was great. But from what I have read, Chase was as graceful, efficient, and mean as any first baseman ever.

I saw Schmidt play and listened to Kalas, Ashburn, and Musser (who didn’t know what was happening) for most of his games. He had a tendency to mess up easy plays (not often) and make the great plays. Brooks was the best. Even though I saw most of Clete Boyer’s games and think he was fantastic, he was a notch below Brooks.

Bench was not as good as Rodriguez, and the problem is that there were or are some great defensive catchers who couldn’t hit, and so are not given the credit they deserved. Henry Blanco and Alberto Castillo today, and Wes Westrum then. And don’t forget Roy Campanella. He was at least as good as Westrum or Bench. As a Yankees fan, we feared Campy and rightfully so. He was a great handler of pitchers, had a great arm, and could catch.

[researcher]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-02 AT 09:19 PM (EST)]Seems as if everybody forgets that Berra went 148 straight games
w/o an error.
If I've said it once, .....a hundred times..Ozzie Smith is 6to5 over
any SS I ever saw....BUT I KNOW IT ISN'T TRUE...if the truth be
known (which it won't be) there have probably been 10-15 defensive
SS equal to each other. Belanger-Wagner-Smith-Bancroft-and probably
a dozen who couldn't hit .200 and were dropped.

Willie Mays had "flair" but he wasn't superior to Curt Flood, Tris
Speaker, and likely a dozen others.

First base don't even try..Gold Gloves since they were introduced,
are not the whole story...probably 15-20 equal to each other; with
allowance for inferior equipment in the "old days"

If they were in right field all they needed was a gun like Colivato or Clemente...I don't see how there could be a absolute #1 here.

Same for left field!

If someone was equal, he played before World War II, because I didn't
see him!....BROOKS ROBINSON COVERED MORE GROUND AT THIRD THAN ANYONE
WHO HAS PLAYED IN THE LAST 50 YEARS AT LEAST!

It wasn't a once in a while thing, it seems as if he made a diving
play every game...he could play off 3rd farther than anyone
else, and you couldn't get the ball passed him, on either side of him.
I saw him in a 100 games, and he must have made 150 diving plays, both
to the right and left.........nothing I've ever seen comes close.

[Double Steal]

OK, I may be getting into the realm oh hearsay here, but if he continues at the rate he is now Ichiro may well be the greatest defensive player of All-Time... OK let the ranting commence...
Seriously, he had one error last year, and had a fielding percentage of .997. Not too bad. History, of course will deem whether this is an anomaly or a trend, but nothing at the beginning of this season leads me to believe otherwise, and he looks to be extremely durable, lending to longevity.

More realistically I think you have to look to DiMaggio as one of the greatest. He always made it look so easy, and no one read the ball better off the bat. In '47 he committed only one error all year, and had a .978 fielding percentage for his career.


Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser - Sandy Koufax

[BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT]

BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT

For anyone in this thread who did not
answer the clarification with Brooks Robinson
just could not have seen him play!

I saw the man for his entire career and
when he amazed the country with his play
against the Big Red Machine in the World Series
and everyone raved about how miraculous the
plays were, the Baltimore fans just didn't have the
heart to tell baseball fans the world over that the
plays Brooks pulled off were "pieces of cake" and
laughable to the the nth degree!!!!

I hate to tell the world now, but I'm the only
person who would tell you - they were ROUTINE!!!
For Brooks, those plays were so easy, I kept waiting
for guffaws from every Orioles fan, but, to spare
feelings, the fans were silent, hoping that another
play would happen that no one but Brooks could
pull off, but, it didn't happen, and every one remained
silent!

If you ever see the tape, trust me, Brooks did
that with his eyes closed, just from the routine!
He was so great defensively, anything hit to the left
side of the infield was doomed!!!

I've seen all the great defensive players in the
last 50 years and not one is even close to Brooks!
Not Ozzie, not Rey with the Mets, not Mays, not
Schmidt, not Boyer, not Aparicio, no one!!!

Do yourself a favor and look at tapes of
Brooks and you won't believe your own eyes - he
was the greatest at defense and that's period!
As a matter of fact, two periods!!!

[Double Steal]

Flat out the best third baseman ever BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT. You may have the guy here. Defined the position that all others are gauged against. You are a lucky guy to have seen him play, as I have only seen film, but he was something. 22 years in Baltimore, and show me 40 year olds playing the hot corner these days, exception Ripkin.

Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser. Sandy Koufax

[researcher]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-02 AT 01:50 AM (EST)]You may be looking at the wrong DiMaggio! Dom was the best of the three brothers!

He covered more ground than Joe, and he had a better arm. Dom had more
put-outs per game than Joe, and beat Joe every time they had a throwing contest...

When Boston and NY would play, sometimes the two brothers would have
a contest, by throwing the ball from the deep outfield at a basket
sitting on home plate. ...Dom DiMaggio would throw the ball, and 1-2 hops into the basket....Joe would have to pack it in.

Joe would tell everyone that his brother was a better fielder than
he was....But Joe could hit the ball.

[wlh99raiders]

ozzie smith, the play where hes diving for a ball and it hit a rock and went back the other way and he grabbed it with his bare hand was the greatest play ever.

[leecemark]

P: Greg Maddux
C: Johnny Bench
1B: Kieth Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
OF: Tris Speaker
OF: Willie Mays
OF: Mike Cameron
---There are 100 CF better than the best corner OF ever.
I'll go with Smith as best ever for the same reason I picked 3 CF and no RF or LF. An average SS has more defensive value than the best 3B who ever lived. If Brooks could have played SS, he would have played SS. For the Ichiro fan - he was not the best defensive OFer on his team until Cameron left this year. I've seen about 85% of his games and he hasn't been anywhere near as good as Cameron. I would like to see him in center now though to see what he could do.

[santotohof]

Paul Blair and Devon White were both cream of the crop

[Bushrod]

Jim Edmonds and Omar Vizquel, Ken Griffey, Jr. should have been mentioned by now. good point about Brooks R. not making the team at shortstop.
What about Terry Puhl? top fielding average for outfielders, career, in history.

are we counting the arm or only the leather?

[leecemark]

--I'd say arm is defiantely part of the defensive package we're talking about. As to Puhl, don't give him too much credit for fielding percentage. That is a pretty small part of what makes up a great defensive outfielder (or player period). I'm alot more interested in how many balls they get too. With very few exceptions, the difference in fileding percent is only a few balls a year - the difference is in the dozens for range factor.

[Iron Jaw]

Brooks would sure be my defensive 3b, with Clete Boyer a close second.

Hard to beat the Say Hey Kid in center. But you sure couldn't go wrong with a Paul Blair (remember, we aren't talking about hitting).

Maz was amazing at second - especially in the years he teamed with Gene Alley at short and both were healthy. He had Dick Groat before Alley, who was adequate, but more known for his excellent bat.

Ozzie was awfully acrobatic at short. Mark Belanger made some tremendous plays at short. Teamed with Brooks, you couldn't get much on that side of the infield. Better try Davey and Boog's side.

Ken Berry was another one of those all field, little hit guys. What a glove that guy had in the OF though.

Jerry Grote was an awfully good defensive catcher. Not the best, but very good. I also liked Tony Pena behind the plate. I didn't like Tony Pena the player, but he was one heck of a catcher - the most unorthodoxed style I've ever seen.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm working on my Gold Gloves awards, and at least statistically Brooksie appears to be a bit overrated :eek:

[ElHalo]

C: Bench (with a strong nod to Buck Ewing and Roger Bresnahan)
1B: George Sisler
2B: Maz
SS: Ozzie Smith
3B: I'm going to go out on a limb on this one and say Alex Rodriguez. If any of you have yet to watch a Yankee game this season, you have to if for no other reason than to see ARod play 3B. I watched a lot of Schmidt's games in Philly, and he wasn't a patch on ARod. I guess that's what happens when you take a gold glove SS and move him to 3B.
LF: Barry Bonds (I'm drawing blanks on other great defensive LF's... he was, statistically at least, better than Yaz)
CF: Tris Speaker (I can't believe nobody mentioned him before you, Leecemark)
RF: Roger Maris (I'm sure I could think of a better rightfielder if I tried hard, but people tend to forget that he was a phenomenal defensive player)
P: Kaat

[Edgartohof]

In response to an earlier statement, If Ichiro keeps it up - for a long while - he could be considered the best defensive right fielder.

[Iron Jaw]

Halo - Alex hasn't been at the position long enough to be considered with the likes of Brooks, etc. But, if you want to choose a Yankee for best defenseman at third, you couldn't go wrong with Clete Boyer (I'm Boyer biased - Ken Boyer was my favorite player when I was a kid - and he wasn't bad defensively or offensively).

Alex is a tall, lanky son of a gun. I wouldn't be surprised to see him evolve into a first sacker in a few years, ala Ernie Banks. Of course, he's still young, but his height is much more fitting for a first baseman. I always thought Cal Ripken would wind up at first (tall, lanky), but he never did.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally posted by VELCROHIDE
[updated:LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-02 AT 12:05 PM (EST)]When you think of the small- barely fitting over the hand-gloves used back in the early 1900s the men playing during those times had to have "good" hands to catch the ball because you pretty much were using your hands and had very minimal assistance from the glove.

So, taking a player from that era I'll go with Honus Wagner. Tris Speaker is right on his heels.Then go with Bid McPhee

[RuthMayBond]

Originally posted by LouGehrig
But from what I have read, Chase was as graceful, efficient, and mean as any first baseman ever. Chase was only the best fielding 1B in 1911

[Roy Hobbs]

I am the only one that tends to think Willie Mays is a bit overrated at CF?

I mean, Mays is one of my favorite players, ranks easily in my top 5 of all time greatest, but defensively I do agree with an earlier poster that there are probably 5-6+ center fielders that were better defensively than Mays.

Sure, I'd probably take Mays over them on my team for his other talents, but defensively I think he gets edged out by several guys, but gets a lot of credit because of flashy plays he made.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally posted by Roy Hobbs
I am the only one that tends to think Willie Mays is a bit overrated at CF?

I mean, Mays is one of my favorite players, ranks easily in my top 5 of all time greatest, but defensively I do agree with an earlier poster that there are probably 5-6+ center fielders that were better defensively than Mays.

Sure, I'd probably take Mays over them on my team for his other talents, but defensively I think he gets edged out by several guys, but gets a lot of credit because of flashy plays he made. He might be slightly overrated, just not as much as Mantle is overrated

[Roy Hobbs]

Originally posted by RuthMayBond
He might be slightly overrated, just not as much as Mantle is overrated

I don't think Mantle is overrated unless you're saying people rate him highly defensively.

He was fine at CF but I don't know anyone that says he was better than Mays.

Offensively you really can't overrate Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays since offensively they are the amongst the top 5 we've ever seen.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally posted by Roy Hobbs
I don't think Mantle is overrated unless you're saying people rate him highly defensively.
He was fine at CF but I don't know anyone that says he was better than Mays.

RMB:
No one's saying that but I've heard people say he was good

Offensively you really can't overrate Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays since offensively they are the amongst the top 5 we've ever seen.

RMB:
We're not talking offensively

[ElHalo]

No one's saying that but I've heard people say he was good


You're saying Mantle wasn't even a good center fielder? How do you support that? Obviously his numbers aren't Speakeresque, but he was solidly above average basically through the early 60's.

[RuthMayBond]

Sorry for the miswording. He was good but I'm not sure if ever deserved one Gold Glove.

[julusnc]

Garry Maddox was always the player that astonished me with his ability in the outfield.


Brooks Robinson and Mark Belanger were a awesome combo for a very long time.

[Iron Jaw]

How many remember the slick fielding Paul Blair in centerfield? He played shallow and was still able to make the plays off the wall.

[RuthMayBond]

BASEBALL_TRIVIA_NUT

For anyone in this thread who did not
answer the clarification with Brooks Robinson
just could not have seen him play!

I saw the man for his entire career and
when he amazed the country with his play
against the Big Red Machine in the World Series
and everyone raved about how miraculous the
plays were, the Baltimore fans just didn't have the
heart to tell baseball fans the world over that the
plays Brooks pulled off were "pieces of cake" and
laughable to the the nth degree!!!!

I hate to tell the world now, but I'm the only
person who would tell you - they were ROUTINE!!!
For Brooks, those plays were so easy, I kept waiting
for guffaws from every Orioles fan, but, to spare
feelings, the fans were silent, hoping that another
play would happen that no one but Brooks could
pull off, but, it didn't happen, and every one remained
silent!

If you ever see the tape, trust me, Brooks did
that with his eyes closed, just from the routine!
He was so great defensively, anything hit to the left
side of the infield was doomed!!!

I've seen all the great defensive players in the
last 50 years and not one is even close to Brooks!
Not Ozzie, not Rey with the Mets, not Mays, not
Schmidt, not Boyer, not Aparicio, no one!!!

Do yourself a favor and look at tapes of
Brooks and you won't believe your own eyes - he
was the greatest at defense and that's period!
As a matter of fact, two periods!!!No one's denying he made individual spectacular plays or that he was among the very best, but if his range was THAT great, he would have blown everyone away in PO, A & fielding range. The truth is, Brooksie was only CLEARLY the best fielding 3B in 1960 and then not again until '67!, again in '68, and probably NOT in '70 (that's as far as I got). There are several years where he very well might have been the best but not CLEARLY so.

[ElHalo]

Now that somebody else has brought up Derek Jeter... yes, I know, his defensive stats are terrible. Yes, I know, ARod should be playing SS.

But wait; no he shouldn't. ESPN said it best in an article last year about the most enjoyable players to watch at each position: That jumping spinning throw Jeter does to first while his legs are spread three feet off the ground is the most aesthetically pleasing play in baseball. Possibly, I'd argue, in all of sports (at least since Barry Sanders retired). I've never seen anything remotely that beuatiful while watching a baseball game. I'll take all the subpar range ractors and defensive win shares you can throw at me, as long as I get to watch Jeter making that play.

Now back to the discussion.

[tydie12]

1B. Palmero
2B. Brett Boone
SS. Ozzie Smith, maybe Derek Jeter
3B. I may sound crazy but Aaron Boone, he comes when he needs to and is in the top 3 for best defensive third basemen in the last 10 years at least. A-rod might be my choice in the future
P. Roger Clemens, Whitey Ford
C. Ivan rodrigez(pudge)
RF. Sammy slammin Sosa, three seasons over 60 homeruns!, unbelievable :lookitup
CF. Willy Mays :rolleyes:
LF. :confused:

[RuthMayBond]

P: Greg Maddux
C: Johnny Bench
1B: Kieth Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
OF: Tris Speaker
OF: Willie Mays
OF: Mike Cameron
---There are 100 CF better than the best corner OF ever.
I'll go with Smith as best ever for the same reason I picked 3 CF and no RF or LF. An average SS has more defensive value than the best 3B who ever lived. If Brooks could have played SS, he would have played SS. For the Ichiro fan - he was not the best defensive OFer on his team until Cameron left this year. I've seen about 85% of his games and he hasn't been anywhere near as good as Cameron. I would like to see him in center now though to see what he could do.Wow, yours is REAL close to my list.
By the time all is said and done, IRod will probably pass Bench/Berra/Schalk.
It's close between McPhee & Maz.
And get Cameron out of there. Maybe Andruw Jones by the time it's done?

[ElHalo]

And get Cameron out of there. Maybe Andruw Jones by the time it's done?

What is this "by the time he's done" stuff? Do you expect him to start suddenly getting to balls that he let drop in front of him before? Isn't a player usually as good as they're going to get at defense by their late 20's? Or is it like pitching, where they can continue to learn new things and get better into their 30's?

[RuthMayBond]

What is this "by the time he's done" stuff? Do you expect him to start suddenly getting to balls that he let drop in front of him before? Isn't a player usually as good as they're going to get at defense by their late 20's? Or is it like pitching, where they can continue to learn new things and get better into their 30's?I was referring to, if Andruw dies young or develops fielding problems, he might not have the longevity of Speaker, etc.

[538280]

But, if you want to choose a Yankee for best defenseman at third, you couldn't go wrong with Clete Boyer (I'm Boyer biased - Ken Boyer was my favorite player when I was a kid - and he wasn't bad defensively or offensively).


How can you discuss great defensive Yankee third basemen without mentioning Graig Nettles? Nettles was very fast with extremely quick hands, and I've heard some people say he was almost as good as Brooks Robinson. Nettles put on an amazing show of defensive wizardry in the 1978 World Series, and if it wasn't for his fielding and Reggie Jackson's hitting, the Yankees wouldn't have beaten the Dodgers in '78.

My defensive All-Time Team:

C-Biz Mackey
1B-Hal Chase
2B-Bill Mazeroski
3B-Brooks Robinson
SS-Ozzie Smith
OF-Oscar Charleston
OF-Willie Mays
OF-Andruw Jones

Yes, I think Andruw is just as good defensively as Oscar and Willie. I see him on TV, and he is just amazing. He gets to balls easily that others can't even come close to making.

[ElHalo]

I was referring to, if Andruw dies young or develops fielding problems, he might not have the longevity of Speaker, etc.

Oh, well, ok then I guess. But longevity doesn't really make a person better.

[falbi23]

cesar izturiz is the best defensive player ever to play :D

[zman]

As for players I've actually seen in my lifetime I'd be hard pressed to judge between Brooks and Ozzie but given the demands of their respective positions I'd have to give the nod to Ozzie.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

Brooks Robinson Bar none!!!

[iPod]

I am the only one that tends to think Willie Mays is a bit overrated at CF?

I mean, Mays is one of my favorite players, ranks easily in my top 5 of all time greatest, but defensively I do agree with an earlier poster that there are probably 5-6+ center fielders that were better defensively than Mays.

Sure, I'd probably take Mays over them on my team for his other talents, but defensively I think he gets edged out by several guys, but gets a lot of credit because of flashy plays he made.

Yeah, Mays' glove was probably overrated. There's really no reason, I think, to believe he was any better than Curt Flood, Garry Maddox, Paul Blair, Tris Speaker, Richie Ashburn, Andruw Jones, or any of the other world-class centerfielders in baseball history.

[Iron Jaw]

How can you discuss great defensive Yankee third basemen without mentioning Graig Nettles? Nettles was very fast with extremely quick hands, and I've heard some people say he was almost as good as Brooks Robinson. Nettles put on an amazing show of defensive wizardry in the 1978 World Series, and if it wasn't for his fielding and Reggie Jackson's hitting, the Yankees wouldn't have beaten the Dodgers in '78.
.

I saw Graig Nettles play from the time he was playing AAA ball with the Denver Bears to his last harrah as a Brave and Expo. But Graig was not the defensive wizard Brooks was. The only player I saw that rivaled Brooks was Clete Boyer. Clete doesn't get a lot of recognition, but teammate Mantle said noone was better at fielding the position.

But, of course, I'd go with Robinson.

[SABR Matt]

Bid...mcphee!!!

[antihipster]

The best defensive player my eyes ever witnessed was Ozzie Smith.

I really do not have the data to make such predictions based on stats.

[RuthMayBond]

1B. PalmeroWell, he did, uh, win a Gold Glove :laugh

[RuthMayBond]

Oh, well, ok then I guess. But longevity doesn't really make a person better.Hmm, you voted for Musial over DiMaggio :D

[ElHalo]

Hmm, you voted for Musial over DiMaggio :D

But I did make a point to say that DiMaggio was easily the better player, even though I was voting for Musial.

[RuthMayBond]

But I did make a point to say that DiMaggio was easily the better player, even though I was voting for Musial.As long as you can convince yourself

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I can't believe Keith Hernandez hasn't been mentioned yet!! :(

[RuthMayBond]

I can't believe Keith Hernandez hasn't been mentioned yet!! :(Posts 11, 18, 45 ... :lookitup

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Posts 11, 18, 45 ... :lookitup


Good call. I guess I was too lazy to read EVERY post!

[scribe114]

Catcher

1. Bench
2. Rodriguez
3. Hegan
4. Campanella
5. Sundberg

First Base

1. Hernandez
2. Power
3. Chase
4. Gallaraga
5. Hodges

Second Base

1. Mazeroski
2. Gehringer
3. Gordon
3. Fox
4. White
5. Boone

Third Base

1. Robinson
2. Caminiti
3. Rolen
4. Aurelio Rodriguez
5. Nettles

Shortstop

1. Belanger
2. Ozzie
3. Ripken
4. Boudreau
5. Marion

Left Field

1. Yaz
2. Bonds
3. Rudi
4. Bob Johnson
5. Minoso

Center Field

1. Speaker
2. Flood
3. Mays
4. D.DiMaggio
5. Griffey

Right Field

1. Clemente
2. Kaline
3. Ichiro
4. Dw. Evans
5. Furillo

Pitcher

1. Kaat or Maddux
2. Shantz
3. Walters
4. Lemon
5. Langston

A few of these fellas I have seen play in my lifetime. Caminiti (Juice or not was the BEST third baseman I ever saw Brooks retired when I was a little fella). I followed this guys career from day one with the Astros and this man had a first step to his left or right like I have never seen and a GUN for an arm. I was very impressed with Caminiti defensively. The only other guy I ever saw with an arm like his at 3b was Aurelio Rodriguez and maybe Scott Rolen.

Flame away at the rest of the selections.

[west coast orange and black]

Paul Blair and Devon White were both cream of the cropman, both of those guys used to really go get 'em, santo. paul ld blair was incredible.

but as the plaque that adorns the say hey kid's statue in willie mays plaza reads:

"the only player who could have caught that ball hit it."

[RuthMayBond]

Catcher

3. Hegan
4. Campanella
5. Sundberg

Wow, even assuming we won't use way old-timers, Campy ahead of Carter/Berra/Pena

First Base
1. Hernandez
2. Power
3. Chase
4. Gallaraga
5. Hodges

Galarraga ahead of Grace/Helton?

Second Base
1. Mazeroski
2. Gehringer
3. Gordon
3. Fox
4. White
5. Boone

Boone ahead of Grich?

Third Base
1. Robinson
2. Caminiti
3. Rolen
4. Aurelio Rodriguez
5. Nettles

Cammy ahead of Schmidt/Bell/Pendleton/Gaetti/Wallach, THAT'S bold

Shortstop
1. Belanger
2. Ozzie
3. Ripken
4. Boudreau
5. Marion

Belanger ahead of Concepcion?

Left Field
1. Yaz
2. Bonds
3. Rudi
4. Bob Johnson
5. Minoso

Rudi ahead of Billy Williams?

Center Field
1. Speaker
2. Flood
3. Mays
4. D.DiMaggio
5. Griffey

Griffey ahead of AJones/Ashburn/Blair/CLemon?

[Imapotato]

You should name this thread

Best hitter who was good defensively

There have been ALOT better defensive players then these mentioned

However, they couldn't hit SQUAT

I think Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith are probably the only two that most know...but in 50 years, no one will remember how good Ozzie was, and will say Why is he in the HOF...lol

[RuthMayBond]

You should name this thread

Best hitter who was good defensivelyOh, you mean the Major League Gold Glove awards :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[moviegeekjan]

I think Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith are probably the only two that most know...but in 50 years, no one will remember how good Ozzie was, and will say Why is he in the HOF...lol 50 years from now there WILL be some old timers who either saw Ozzie live, via TV, or via VHS/DVD, who will step forward with narratives to support Ozzie.

[scribe114]

Well I guess there were no gripes with the Right Fielders.......

(Cammy ahead of Schmidt/Bell/Pendleton/Gaetti/Wallach, THAT'S bold)

Just tried to cross a few decades and there were a few of those guys I saw play. Of all the gentlemen I passed over at 3b I could place Matt Williams ahead of all of them or on par defensively. Can definitely find some room for Schmidt too.

Will get back to Belanger later, I admit I have a hard-on for fundamentally sound infileders.

[IrishEyes12]

I will take Ken Griffey Jr. any day of the week as the greatest outfielder of all time, he has higher fielding percentage than Mays, Speaker, Bonds. Ten consecutive gold gloves. Jim Edmonds and Andruw Jones should be thankful that he got hurt for so many years or he would have 15 or 16 and they would have a lot less. Jones and Cameron have only been playing for a 7-10 years, see where they are in 20 years.

[TRfromBR]

Though I agree with his exclusion from the Hall, I think, based on contemporaneous reports, that Hal Chase was the greatest fielding first baseman ever to play the game. Of course, he had a particularly bad reputation for betting and bribing, even against his own team on occasion. That could get a little frustrating.

[RuthMayBond]

I will take Ken Griffey Jr. any day of the week as the greatest outfielder of all time, he has higher fielding percentage than Mays, Speaker, Bonds. Ten consecutive gold gloves.If only those were the true measures

<Jim Edmonds and Andruw Jones should be thankful that he got hurt for so many years or he would have 15 or 16 and they would have a lot less.>

I'd be thankful if the voters were more careful

<Jones and Cameron have only been playing for a 7-10 years, see where they are in 20 years.>

Not bad if you expect Jones to be playing in 20 years. Jones is already better defensively than Griffey, and the gap widens

[MyDogSparty]

sp: Greg Maddux
ca: Johnny Bench/Ivan Rodriguez
1b: Keith Hernandez
2b: Bill Mazeroski
3b: Brooks Robinson
ss: Ozzie Smith
lf: Carl Yastrzemski
cf: Willie Mays
rf: Al Kaline

Q: Greatest of all-time regardless of position?
A: Brooks Robinson

[Bill Burgess]

It's Wagner. Better all-around than Ozzie, Brooksie, Billy Cox. It's Wagner.

[HDH]

C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Kieth Hernandez or George Sisler
2B Bid McPhee
SS Rabbitt Maranville or Ozzie Smith
3B Craig Nettles or Brooks Robinson
RF Ichiro Suzuki
CF Richie Ashburn
LF Bobby Veach or Max Carey

[john1972]

If only those were the true measures

Not saying Gold Gloves should be the true measure, but what exactly are the true measures? I believe the only real measures are the opinions of the managers and players who played in the time of the player being considered, and a little weighting should be placed on Gold Gloves, especially when a player has accumulated 5+. They can get it wrong several times possibly, but not when a player has been awarded them consistently year after year for most of their career.

There are no other reliable defensive metrics in existence and there never will be to measure defensive excellence. I quite frankly think the only people who know best regarding this area of the game are the players. They know the difference between reputation and genuine fielding excellence.

[ThanksTheo]

Interesting question, and interesting, varied responses.

P - Greg Maddux (Kaat right behind him)
C - Johnny Bench
1B- Keith Hernandez (I'm still struggling with this one)
2B- Nellie Fox
3B- Mr. Brooks Robinson
SS- Honus Wagner (Ozzie not far behind)
LF- Carl Yastrzemski
CF- Tris Speaker
RF- Mel Ott or Al Kaline

I base my opinions on what I've seen and what I read (accounts of the day). Ott transitioned from IF to RF and developed into the best in the business during his time. With the exception of Honus, Mel, and Tris, I've seen them all play. With that in mind:

Overall best fielder - Mr. Brooks Robinson

From that opinion, I've never wavered.

[RuthMayBond]

I believe the only real measures are the opinions of the managers and players who played in the time of the player being considered, and a little weighting should be placed on Gold Gloves, especially when a player has accumulated 5+. They can get it wrong several times possibly, but not when a player has been awarded them consistently year after year for most of their career.

There are no other reliable defensive metrics in existence and there never will be to measure defensive excellence. I quite frankly think the only people who know best regarding this area of the game are the players. They know the difference between reputation and genuine fielding excellence.And where do we get these consensus opinions? (John, you made an entire post without directly trying to pump up one certain recently-retired 2B or trying to criticize another certain soon-to-retire 2B :applaud: :dance :highfive: :faint: :party: :disbelief: :clapping :nod: :laugh :hyper:

[john1972]

And where do we get these consensus opinions? (John, you made an entire post without directly trying to pump up one certain recently-retired 2B or trying to criticize another certain soon-to-retire 2B

Read between the lines my friend. Notice how I said any player who doesn't have 5+ gold gloves could have been awarded them erroneously. Which player that I don't necessarily despise but have a certain distaste for- legitimately I might add- has 4 GG's? Don't underestimate me. :)

And I agree. It is extremely difficult to garner up consensus opinions from people who've passed let alone from the living. But I believe we should trust the consensus opinion of who was the best defensive second baseman of our age- I won't mention the name, yet you seem to prefer overlooking the expertise of the people who actually played the game at the major league level while laying your trust in defensive metrics with proven flaws. You are much more liable to be led astray with that process than I am, I believe.

By the way, here's my all-time defensive team:

P-Maddux
C-Ivan Rodriguez
1st-Keith Hernandez
2nd-Roberto Alomar
SS-Ozzie Smith
3rd-Brooks Robinson
LF-Carl Yastremski
CF-Ken Griffey Jr.
RF-Roberto Clemente or Ichiro

[RuthMayBond]

Read between the lines my friend. Notice how I said any player who doesn't have 5+ gold gloves could have been awarded them erroneously. Which player that I don't necessarily despise but have a certain distaste for- legitimately I might add- has 4 GG's?Well, it's a very convenient cutoff

<But I believe we should trust the consensus opinion of who was the best defensive second baseman of our age- I won't mention the name, yet you seem to prefer overlooking the expertise of the people who actually played the game at the major league level while laying your trust in defensive metrics with proven flaws.>

Still looking for the consensus

[john1972]

Well, it's a very convenient cutoff

<But I believe we should trust the consensus opinion of who was the best defensive second baseman of our age- I won't mention the name, yet you seem to prefer overlooking the expertise of the people who actually played the game at the major league level while laying your trust in defensive metrics with proven flaws.>

Still looking for the consensus

There will never be an absolute consensus for any player in history but a vast majority of opinion can be considered a near consensus. And the player I refer to has that consensus. The only area of the baseball community which disagrees is the sabremetric folks, and as Morgan says roughly, the game of baseball is played on the field not in the books, and to properly evaluate defense you must witness from a knowledgeable standpoint, not look for the answer in arcane defensive "measurements."

[RuthMayBond]

There will never be an absolute consensus for any player in history but a vast majority of opinion can be considered a near consensus. And the player I refer to has that consensus.At least in your opinion

<The only area of the baseball community which disagrees is the sabremetric folks, and as Morgan says roughly, the game of baseball is played on the field not in the books, and to properly evaluate defense you must witness from a knowledgeable standpoint, not look for the answer in arcane defensive "measurements.">

Maybe Joe's right, maybe sabermetrics IS overvaluating him :laugh :laugh

[john1972]

At least in your opinion

<The only area of the baseball community which disagrees is the sabremetric folks, and as Morgan says roughly, the game of baseball is played on the field not in the books, and to properly evaluate defense you must witness from a knowledgeable standpoint, not look for the answer in arcane defensive "measurements.">

Maybe Joe's right, maybe sabermetrics IS overvaluating him :laugh :laugh

How is the near consensus opinion outside the sabermetric community 'my opinion.' Are you disagreeing with my assertion that most knowledgeable baseball people consider that player to be the best defensively at his position for his era?

I don't get your second point. Maybe it's because you seem well suited for a career as a one-line standup comedian. So you're saying sabermetrics evaluates Morgan highly, and with him denigrating the practice only hurts him? I don't think he cares really. If his peers and contemporaries considered him a premier defensive secondbaseman then that overrides all else and is quite frankly all he does or should be caring about.

[RuthMayBond]

How is the near consensus opinion outside the sabermetric community 'my opinion.' Are you disagreeing with my assertion that most knowledgeable baseball people consider that player to be the best defensively at his position for his era? It may not be open and shut, although there weren't a lot of stellar 2B in his era. If he had to go back a few years and compete with Frank White, Grich, Randolph, Gantner, Hubbard... I'm not convinced he was definitely a better defensive 2B than Ryno

[john1972]

It may not be open and shut, although there weren't a lot of stellar 2B in his era. If he had to go back a few years and compete with Frank White, Grich, Randolph, Gantner, Hubbard... I'm not convinced he was definitely a better defensive 2B than Ryno

I'm going by decades. He is the consensus for the nineties. Sandberg maybe the consensus for the 80's-by the way, comparing him to Alomar is inappropriate as I've heard Ryno rarely dove for balls (how laughable is that), but I've heard White was superior. Apparently Grich or Morgan for the seventies.

I've perused the defensive stats of the names you posted and have concluded you primarily base your assertions on range factor. Range factor is the most prone to error stat in existence.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm going by decades. He is the consensus for the nineties.Going by decades does help your case, it is tailor-made for Alomar

<Sandberg maybe the consensus for the 80's-by the way, comparing him to Alomar is inappropriate as I've heard Ryno rarely dove for balls (how laughable is that),>

As laughable as you making him consensus? I've heard Joe Dimaggio rarely dove, what's your point?

<Apparently Grich or Morgan for the seventies.>

Grich, please. As far as eyewitnesses knowing all, I keep going back to the difference in hits in a week between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter

[john1972]

As laughable as you making him consensus? I've heard Joe Dimaggio rarely dove, what's your point?

<Apparently Grich or Morgan for the seventies.>

Grich, please. As far as eyewitnesses knowing all, I keep going back to the difference in hits in a week between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter

You misunderstanding the importance of diving for a ball while playing defense only underscores your ignorance of fielding in general. How in the world can a defensive player, especially one playing at SS or 2B, be truly effective without diving for a ball. It is the primary means of extending one's range along with speed and anticipation.

I don't quite get your second point. Are you saying Grich turns a .300 hitter into a .250 hitter with his range, while Morgan did not exactly? If so, I'll trust your opinion on the matter because I have not witnessed either play.

And I'm not so sure Alomar played in a weak 2B era. Perhaps he made it appear like there was weak competition. My argument is that generally athletes improve over time on the average.

[RuthMayBond]

You misunderstanding the importance of diving for a ball while playing defense only underscores your ignorance of fielding in general. How in the world can a defensive player, especially one playing at SS or 2B, be truly effective without diving for a ball. It is the primary means of extending one's range along with speed and anticipation.Your COMPLETE misunderstanding of what I ACTUALLY said (plus ignoring what you didn't want to talk about) speaks more volumes

<I don't quite get your second point. Are you saying Grich turns a .300 hitter into a .250 hitter with his range, while Morgan did not exactly? If so, I'll trust your opinion on the matter because I have not witnessed either play.>

You win the "put words in someone else's mouth" competition. Please re-read the post

<And I'm not so sure Alomar played in a weak 2B era. Perhaps he made it appear like there was weak competition.>

Then by that, White wasn't that good if there was good competition

[john1972]

<Your COMPLETE misunderstanding of what I ACTUALLY said (plus ignoring what you didn't want to talk about) speaks more volumes>

I am genuinely trying to understand what you actually said. You mentioned how 'Joe Dimaggio rarely dove for balls. What's your Point?' Since you have a curious way of responding with one line statements, I am forced to make some inferences. So your saying Dimaggio was well regarded defensively so if he rarely dove for balls then diving must be unimportant for a defensive player? Well he did play centerfield and we're discussing the infield, but whatever.

<You win the "put words in someone else's mouth" competition. Please re-read the post>

"Grich, please. As far as eyewitnesses knowing all, I keep going back to the difference in hits in a week between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter"

Please expand on this for me or can someone else help in the interpretation of the hidden meaning in this statement. I believe you are stating a preference for Grich defensively, and then making a comment on the value of eyewitness accounts, but I don't get the analogy concerning the difference between a .250 and .300 hitter relating to eyewitness value.



<Then by that, White wasn't that good if there was good competition>

:noidea

[RuthMayBond]

<Your COMPLETE misunderstanding of what I ACTUALLY said (plus ignoring what you didn't want to talk about) speaks more volumes>

I am genuinely trying to understand what you actually said. You mentioned how 'Joe Dimaggio rarely dove for balls. What's your Point?' Since you have a curious way of responding with one line statements, I am forced to make some inferences. So your saying Dimaggio was well regarded defensively so if he rarely dove for balls then diving must be unimportant for a defensive player? Well he did play centerfield and were discussing the infield, but whatever.>

Diving might be more important in the infield (might not, a missed 2B dive only costs you one base) but it can be important even in the outfield. And if diving was always important, that would knock Dimaggio. And just because you heard someone say that Sandberg rarely dives, I want more evidence than that.

<"Grich, please. As far as eyewitnesses knowing all, I keep going back to the difference in hits in a week between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter"

Please expand on this for me or can someone else help in the interpretation of the hidden meaning in this statement. I believe you are stating a preference for Grich defensively, and then making a comment on the value of eyewitness accounts, but I don't get the analogy concerning the difference between a .250 and .300 hitter relating to eyewitness value.>

I am referring to how some people always think eyewitnesses can determine everything. In most eras, everything else equal, a .250 hitter is below average, a .300 hitter is above average. Certainly an eyewitness could tell them apart. I'm saying, in a week with five four-AB games and two travel days, the difference is an entire hit a week. Are you sure you could tell the difference?

<Then by that, White wasn't that good if there was good competition>

:noidea >

You said that there may have been excellent fielders at Alomar's time but he made it look as if no one was close. There were guys that were fairly close to White but by that reasoning maybe White wasn't that good (talent is NOT always distributed evenly across eras, etc)

[hellborn]

I'm going by decades. He is the consensus for the nineties. Sandberg maybe the consensus for the 80's-by the way, comparing him to Alomar is inappropriate as I've heard Ryno rarely dove for balls (how laughable is that), but I've heard White was superior. Apparently Grich or Morgan for the seventies.


I don't know that Sandberg was the best defensive 2B of any period, but I felt that he was quite good. I saw him play a lot as a Chicago resident at that time, and agree that he didn't dive very much. But, he was amazing at being able to bend at the waist while running full speed and pick up even a low grounder...I've never seen anybody do it quite like him. It was like he moved at exactly the same speed whether he was upright or bent over full. I felt that this made it much less necessary for him to dive for balls, and you would have had to see him play often to know quite what I mean.
Anybody else have this memory of Ryno?
I felt when he was active that Alomar was more showy than great, while White was just plain amazing. Guess I don't quite recall how Frank was on the DP, though, whether he could turn miracles there.

This probably apropos of nothing, but Donnie Sadler turned the best play by a 2B that I've ever seen. He turned a single in the hole into a DP by some incredible miracle, and nobody in the stands could believe what they had seen. I wish that he had gotten more of a chance with the Bosox.

[philipthegreat]

P-Greg Maddux
C- Ivan Rodrigeuz
1b- Don Mattingly
2b- Eddie Collins
3b Brooksie
SS- Ozzie Smith
Of- Willie Mays
of- Jim Edmonds
Of Al Kaline

[HDH]

1880-90 Bid McPhee
1900 Johnny Evers
1910 Edddie Collins
1920 Hughie Critz
1930 Charlie Gehringer
1940 Joe Gordon
1950 Nellie Fox
1960 Bill Mazeroski
1970 Manny Trillo
1980 Ryne Sandberg
1990 Roberto Alomar
2000 Orlando Hudson or Aaron Hill

[The Splendid Splinter]

my great grandpa all defensive team... i found it in his journal. Mind you... my GG lived from 1894 til 2001...

C- Johnny Bench
1B- Todd Helton
2B- Nellie Fox
SS- Ozzie Smith
3B- Brooks Robinson
LF- Bob Meusel
CF- Johnny Mostil
RF- Roberto Clemente


Best Arm in the OF:

1. Roberto Clemente
2. Vladimir Guerrero
3. Bob Meusel

[RuthMayBond]

1900 Johnny EversNap Lajoie?

<1920 Hughie Critz>

Bucky Harris?

<1930 Charlie Gehringer>

Honorable mention to Melillio?

<1940 Joe Gordon>

Doerr?

<1970 Manny Trillo>

Grich?

<2000 Orlando Hudson or Aaron Hill>

Too late of a start for Hill

[RuthMayBond]

my great grandpa all defensive team... i found it in his journal. Mind you... my GG lived from 1894 til 2001...

C- Johnny Bench
1B- Todd Helton
2B- Nellie Fox
SS- Ozzie Smith
3B- Brooks Robinson
LF- Bob Meusel
CF- Johnny Mostil
RF- Roberto Clemente


Best Arm in the OF:

1. Roberto Clemente
2. Vladimir Guerrero
3. Bob Meusel
Nice list. Kinda surprised he'd made Helton all-time defensive 1B after four full seasons

[Seattle1]

Who do you think is the best defensive player of all-time?

Might be Ichiro Suzuki, though he needs to play a few more years before it can be said with certainty.

[RuthMayBond]

Might be Ichiro Suzuki, though he needs to play a few more years before it can be said with certainty.Kinda surprised that, if someone is picking ONE player, they'd go with a guy who's played right field most of his career (of course someone earlier went with Keith Hernandez)

[Seattle1]

Kinda surprised that, if someone is picking ONE player, they'd go with a guy who's played right field most of his career

What difference does it make what position he plays? Do you mean that only certain positions are eligible for consideration for best defensive player?

A perfect, perfect, perfect throw by Ichiro! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7768779383091185517&q=ichiro&total=817&start=50&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) :)

:clapping

[RuthMayBond]

What difference does it make what position he plays? Do you mean that only certain positions are eligible for consideration for best defensive player?I'd think the guy was an outfielder, he'd AT LEAST play the MOST DIFFICULT outfield position for most of his career :shrug:

[HDH]

Nap Lajoie?

<1920 Hughie Critz>

Bucky Harris?

<1930 Charlie Gehringer>

Honorable mention to Melillio?

<1940 Joe Gordon>

Doerr?

<1970 Manny Trillo>

Grich?

<2000 Orlando Hudson or Aaron Hill>

Too late of a start for Hill


I can give Ski Melillio an honorable mention. However, the best defensive 2B are listed correctly with one modification. Orlando Hudson gets the honor for 2000; Aaron Hill is the best today .

[RuthMayBond]

I can give Ski Melillio an honorable mention. However, the best defensive 2B are listed correctly with one modification. Orlando Hudson gets the honor for 2000; Aaron Hill is the best today .Whatever. And I thought you were going by decade

[Lucifer]

P: Greg Maddux
C: Johnny Bench
1B: Kieth Hernandez
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
OF: Tris Speaker
OF: Willie Mays
OF: Mike Cameron
---There are 100 CF better than the best corner OF ever.
I'll go with Smith as best ever for the same reason I picked 3 CF and no RF or LF. An average SS has more defensive value than the best 3B who ever lived. If Brooks could have played SS, he would have played SS. For the Ichiro fan - he was not the best defensive OFer on his team until Cameron left this year. I've seen about 85% of his games and he hasn't been anywhere near as good as Cameron. I would like to see him in center now though to see what he could do.

Mike Cameron? Best of all time? Interesting.......

[RuthMayBond]

Mike Cameron? Best of all time? Interesting.......We'll wait til he gets, oh, more than ten full seasons

[The Splendid Splinter]

We'll wait til he gets, oh, more than ten full seasons

Doesn't matter if he does play 10 full seasons or not... look at my GG list, Helton made it after only 4 years. My GG thought very highly of Mostil who he thinks is the best defensive CFer ever. Better than Blair, Speaker, Ashburn, Mays..... And Mostil only had 7 full seasons.

[RuthMayBond]

Doesn't matter if he does play 10 full seasons or not... look at my GG list, Helton made it after only 4 years. My GG thought very highly of Mostil who he thinks is the best defensive CFer ever. Better than Blair, Speaker, Ashburn, Mays..... And Mostil only had 7 full seasons.Well, that's one person's opinion