Taking the first pitch... ALWAYS? [Archive]

Jesse

07-30-2008, 08:26 PM

Ted Williams said in his book that he would ALWAYS take the first pitch. What do you guys think about this?
That's not what he said. He said he'd take the first pitch 95 per cent of the time. He also said this rule only applies on the first at bat. So when he talks about the first pitch, he's really talking about the first pitch of the game.

Here are a few selective quotes from the book:

But what advantage is there in taking the first pitch in a game (the rule doesn't apply in succeeding times up) if the pitch is a strike and you've automatically reduced by 33 per cent the number of strikes you'll get? These advantages: You've refreshed your memory of the pitcher's speed and his delivery. You see if he's got it on this particular day. You've given yourself a little time to get settled, to get the tempo.

Sure, the tendency might have been to groove the first pitch on me, but I still didn't feel my chances were good because I hadn't seen a pitch. Make a mistake - swing late on a fast ball, pop up - and you're out, and the next time up there might be a couple men on base in a tight spot and you're still not sure what to expect.

Usually I'd get to see four or five pitches that first time up, maybe even six, and I was learning on them all the time. Second time up, you're even more alert, because now you've had a sampling: What did I do the first time? A home run off what pitch? A ground-out? A strike-out? Why? Did he fool me?

You must learn to make that first time up a key time by striving to find out as much about a pitcher as possible, and you do that by making him pitch.

It's simple arithmetic: You figure to face a pitcher at least three or four times in a game. The more information you log the first time up, the better your chances the next three. The more you make him pitch, the more information you get.

Past confrontations should be going through your mind, but more important than anything else that first time up - and this applies whether you've hit against him in the past or not - is you want to make him pitch.

And the first rule of thumb is this:

Don't hit at anything you haven't seen.

Ted also advocated taking the first pitch because, 99 per cent of the time, if the pitcher knows you're taking what's he going to give you? A fast ball right down the middle. Of all the pitches he's got, which one do you want to see the most? The fast ball. Why? Because that's the ball you want to hit.

nychamps2k7

07-30-2008, 08:27 PM

I always take the first pitch because im the lead off batter so i always make the pitcher work hard and show all his pitches to my teammates. Plus watching the first pitch allows you to analyze everything about a pitcher, his release point, his speed, and his natural drop. The only time i swing away on the first pitch is if a scounting report says 90% of the time he throws a first pitch strike over the plate.

MrSurprise

07-30-2008, 08:57 PM

That's not what he said. He said he'd take the first pitch 95 per cent of the time. He also said this rule only applies on the first at bat. So when he talks about the first pitch, he's really talking about the first pitch of the game.

Here are a few selective quotes from the book:

Ted also advocated taking the first pitch because, 99 per cent of the time, if the pitcher knows you're taking what's he going to give you? A fast ball right down the middle. Of all the pitches he's got, which one do you want to see the most? The fast ball. Why? Because that's the ball you want to hit.

Hit it right on the dot... He is talking about the first pitch he sees in the game, not every at bat. Every other at bat you should have a good scouting report on what the pitcher likes to do on first pitch and so you should go up there knowing what he is about to throw you and if it is that pitch rip it.

kylebee

07-30-2008, 09:05 PM

I guarantee Ted Williams swung at the first pitch at some point in his career.

That being said, you should look for a very specific pitch that you know you can manhandle with a high probability on the first pitch of the AB. If your specialty is hitting middle-in fastballs that are belt-high, look for that and cheat for it. If you get it, crush it for extra bases!

Of course, you should try to work deep counts and tire the pitcher out. It helps your teammates out and gives you the best chance to get on base or drive in runs. Remember: "Pitching is a war of attrition, and what is being attrited is pitcher's arms." - Billy Beane, GM of the Oakland A's

Jesse

07-30-2008, 09:17 PM

I guarantee Ted Williams swung at the first pitch at some point in his career.
Here's another quote from the book:
And despite taking that first pitch, I was still pitched to carefully - an indication of respect, I guess, or maybe that the pitchers didn't trust me. (I hit a home run off Bob Lemon on a first pitch one time, and he yelled, "What the hell are you doing?" He was one guy I didn't want to get ahead of me.)
My interpretation of this is, Ted was thinking all the time. Everything he did at the plate had a reason. This was one of the few times that swinging at the first pitch made sense to him, so he swung. It's as simple as that.

Williamsburg2599

07-30-2008, 09:17 PM

Jake Patterson

07-30-2008, 09:20 PM

always think hit!

Jesse

07-30-2008, 09:33 PM

It's also helpful to remember where Ted was coming from. He was facing pitching better than anything 99.9% of us (or our kids) will ever see. His livelihood, and his legacy, depended on him getting a good pitch to hit and making the most of it. In his mind, the long term benefits of taking the first pitch of each game far outweighed the cost. I'd say it worked out pretty well for him. This may not be the best strategy for you, or the kids you coach.

Here's how he leads off the chapter:
All right. Stop and think. This is your first time up in a big game. You are not concerned about mechanics now. Your practice has made them automatic.
In other words, complex hitting strategy is useless if you don't know how to hit. If you're still trying to learn how to hit a fast ball down the middle, and the pitcher serves one up the first pitch of the game, you should probably swing at it.

korp

07-30-2008, 10:19 PM

In my first at bat of the game or first at bat against I new pitcher I will usually take a pitch unless I see it well or have seen the pitcher recently. Now thats not how I always hit like in highschool I would go up hacking but the problem when you get to college is if pitchers know you do this they will throw you a 2 seam or something that moves enough to destroy your at bat. I take the pitch because it gets my synced on the release point and even though my timing is good from watching other pitches the pitcher has thrown there is no way to completely judge the ball until you step in the box and see one. Baseball is a game of alot of information and the more you have the better off you are. By taking a pitch you have just gained information on speed, spin and the arm slot head on which can make you that much more effective in the rest of that at bat and those to come. If you actually go up and plan to take a first pitch you could even crowd the plate more than normal and get a great view, get plunked by a pitch or throw the pitcher off because you have just came up and crowded the crap out of the plate. Like Jesse said though this is an advanced approach because of how exact the swing must be in pro (and college) baseball the location and pitch selection has to be almost dead on especially when comparing it to highschool baseball.

rkbenn

07-30-2008, 10:51 PM

"Pitching is a war of attrition, and what is being attrited is pitcher's arms." - Billy Beane, GM of the Oakland A's

A's are know for working the count. I see the Giants AAA team and many of these guys do not do as good as a job as the A's. In fact down right awful.

Quiz

07-31-2008, 01:56 AM

It makes sense to take the very first pitch you see from a pitcher in order to pick up his release point properly. Other than that, always taking the first pitch in every at bat is very bad from a game theoretic standpoint, because it gives the pitcher a huge advantage and turns a .300 hitter into something like a .250 hitter (based on MLB data).

You can read more about working the count from both perspectives in Baseball Prospectus 2008.

GetYourBestSwing

09-18-2008, 02:07 AM

I pray the teams we play against preach this type of approach.

Yikes.

Infinite

09-18-2008, 04:11 AM

I think its soley based on situations to be honest...
For me personally I hate outside low pitches or outside pitches in general. If I let the first one pass then they will try to feast. So most times here they will throw to the outside and I try to do something with it.

If I had a pitcher to challenge middle or in I would take the first pitch because I know I will see something good to hit later.

shake-n-bake

09-18-2008, 05:34 AM

My philosophy and what I teach kids to do is to concentrate on staying ahead in the count. Taking a first pitch fastball goes against that. There are exceptions though. One obviously would be a pitcher who's struggling and has put runners on base via walks and/or hit by pitch. The other would be a first at bat early in the game. Another might be a new pitcher entering the game in a difficult situation.

From the pitcher's perspective, the more aggressive he sees hitters early in the count the more he's going to stay away from the middle of the zone and mix in more first pitch breaking balls and change ups. It becomes somewhat of a catch-22 and like alot of precision based activities - timing is everything. I suppose that's why catchers who are skilled in calling a game are so valuable.

Always taking or always tending to swing at the first pitch seems like it plays into the pitchers favor. Then again, not having a consistent approach isn't good either for most hitters. But, what I've seen to be true most often when a pitcher has a great outing is that they're able to get lots of first pitch strikes (both called and swinging) without it being a fence-high fastball. Facing a pitcher, especially after the first time through the lineup, that's not showing he can consistently nibble should make a hitter salivate over a first pitch fastball.

TG Coach

09-18-2008, 10:55 AM

Without going back to William's book, I think he took the first pitch whenever he saw a new pitcher not every first pitch. There are times to take the first pitch. If a pitcher has a history of losing effectiveness at the sixtieth pitch, take the first pitch. If the piptcher is walking the park, take a pitch. If the leadoff hitter is out on the first pitch, take a pitch. If the first two hitters are out on three or four pitches, take a pitch. But if a lineup continually takes the first pitch on a pitcher with good control, they're going to hit from a hole all day long.

nick e

10-01-2008, 10:54 PM

I allways take the first pitch. It gives me a chance to gage the speed of the pitcher, and get a feel for the box. Yeah, i could miss a fastball down the middle that could be driven, but id say 7/10 times, that first pitch isnt a strike anyway. Plus, i have no problem hititng with 2 strikes, so taking the first pitch is more of a comfort thing for me. My high school coach tried to change it, and have me swing earlyier in the count because i would allways fall behind 0-2, or 1-2, but as the hits kept comming, he got quieter about me getting behind in the count. Some guys like taking first pitch, others like swinging first pitch. I dont think there is a right or wrong view on taking the first pitch, its just a comfort thing

Quiz

10-02-2008, 01:44 AM

Btw, there is another approach. You try to look for patterns while the other guys are standing there and when you come up to bat, you should have a good idea if the pitcher is leaning towards throwing the first one in the zone or if he is wild or tries to play games.

Personally I don't see anything wrong in going for it if the pitcher always throws the first one as a strike.

Ursa Major

10-02-2008, 01:46 AM

Because he was one of the most adept hitters in baseball history. He could hit better with two strikes than most hitters could with a 2-0 count. Especially if you're in a league with lousy umpires, the first pitch may be the only legitimate strike you see in an at-bat in which you'd strike out if you let it go by. Yes, shrink your "happy zone" a little, but be ready to crush your pitch.

skipper5

10-02-2008, 06:20 AM

Jake Patterson

10-02-2008, 06:35 AM

I allways take the first pitch. It gives me a chance to gage the speed of the pitcher, and get a feel for the box.
This never made any sense to me. What does "seeing the ball" really give you? This is what you should be doing while on deck. We teach timing drills on deck so batters are ready when the get in the box. You lose the ability to hit the ball - what 30% of time? Plus good pitchers never throw the same pitch in the exact same location every time so what are you really learning? Looking at the first pitch gives the pitcher the advantage. Think hit every pitch!

stevebogus

10-02-2008, 07:24 AM

Always take the first pitch?

In terms of HR's the friendliest count for Barry Bonds was 0-0.

Same with McGwire, Sosa, Arod, and Ramirez. 0-0 counts account for the largest proportion of their HR's.

Pujols has hit 48 HR's on a 1-1 count, and 45 on a 0-0 count, so by a slight margin he's not a first-pitch HR hitter like the others.

Here's a link to Mcgwire, who showed a special affinity for 0-0 gopher pitches.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/event_hr.cgi?n1=mcgwima01&type=b

Very few HR's are hit on 3-1 counts.

The problem with looking at the data on that page is you get no sense of how many plate appearances it took to get those HRs. Every AB begins with a 0-0 count, not every AB goes to 3-1. Try this page:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=mcgwima01&year=00

Scroll down the page to find his results by count.

When McGwire swung at the first pitch he hit 124 HRs in 942 AB, a HR 13.16% of the time. On a 3-1 count he hit 20 HRs in 150 ABs, or 13.33% of the time, essentially the same. His best count for HRs was 2-0, where he had a 14.73% HR rate. His worst count was 1-2, a HR just 4.79% of the time. For all counts before 2 strikes McGwire hit HRs at least 11.83% of the time. With two strikes his HR rate falls by over 50%, no better than 5.52% for any of those ABs. Most of this is a statistical illusion. With two strikes a swing and a miss ends the AB with a strikeout. Anything less than 2 strikes and the hitter gets another chance, that opportunity just shifts to a new count.

One quirk in the data: "first pitch" must literally mean the first pitch from a pitcher, but not always a 0-0 count. Some pitching changes occur in the middle of an AB, so in the data you see a few "first pitch" strikeouts and walks.

Drill

10-02-2008, 07:42 AM

Ted Williams said in his book that he would ALWAYS take the first pitch. What do you guys think about this?

Its a head thing that works for some individual's or teams.

If my son gets a fast ball down the middle he is not going to wait on another one. But I do see him watch the pitcher very closely before his up at bat.

good question again,

drill

skipper5

10-02-2008, 07:47 AM

stevebogus: "The problem with looking at the data on that page is you get no sense of how many plate appearances it took to get those HRs. Every AB begins with a 0-0 count, not every AB goes to 3-1. Try this page:"

My logic was flawed. As you point out, what's important is the rate of HR's on each count, not the absolute nos. of HR's on each count.

However, I find it remarkable that McGwire's rate of HR's on the first pitch of a count was only 1.5% less than the rate that he hit them on 2-0 counts. Statistically, that's almost insignificant.

IMO, that argues against 'always take the first pitch.'

What do we tell pitchers? Get strike one. A 'get-it-over' fastball on the first pitch of a count often will be the most hittable pitch a batter will see in the count. I'm with Jake. Think hit every pitch.

Also, in high school, for the 3-4-5 batters, a 'get-it-over' hanging curveball on the first pitch is predictable enough to be a part of the game plan for those batters.

stevebogus

10-02-2008, 08:55 AM

skipper5-

It is very easy to look at data and draw the wrong conclusion. Happens all the time.

I would caution against trying to draw too firm af a conclusion based on data from one batter. Also, Things missing from the data is the number of pitches which were

-taken for a ball
-taken for a strike
-swung at and missed or fouled

So, when McGwire didn't swing how many of those pitches were out of the zone? Don't know. I'm sure most of them were called balls, but was it 60% or 90%? can't tell from this data, although I'm sure it exists somewhere, at least for some seasons. Lots of hitters post impressive "ball in play" stats, which is what all those results before 2 strikes represent. You could get similar numbers by removing the strikeouts from the 2-strike data. But the battle begins with balls and strikes and whether or not the pitcher will give the batter a pitch he can hit well. And if the batter gets his pitch, he better be ready because he may not get another. Whatever thought process the batter uses, he needs to be ready to hit his pitch.

wogdoggy

10-02-2008, 10:28 AM

The first pitch might be the best pitch you will see the entire at bat;)

it may be but do you have the timing down yet to do something with it?

nick e

10-02-2008, 09:36 PM

This never made any sense to me. What does "seeing the ball" really give you? This is what you should be doing while on deck. We teach timing drills on deck so batters are ready when the get in the box. You lose the ability to hit the ball - what 30% of time? Plus good pitchers never throw the same pitch in the exact same location every time so what are you really learning? Looking at the first pitch gives the pitcher the advantage. Think hit every pitch!

yeah....you can try to time from the on-deck circle, but anyone who has ever played baseball knows how much diffrent it is once you step into the box. And id rather put a good swing on a ball that i have timed or seen before in the at bat on a 0-2, 1-2, 1-1, 0-1 count, than put a bad swing on the first pitch. It only gives the pitcher an advantage if you as a hitter are not confident enough hitting behind in the count. Like is said in my post, i have more than enough confidence in my hitting ability to hit 0-1, or 0-2. Some guys don't. If you look at the majority of games in which a pitcher is shutting down an opponent, most of the hitters are swinging at 1st pitch, it lets the pitcher get in a grove, and it makes quick outs. Im not in anyway a professional hitter, im just a high school kid who knows what my approach at the plate is. Whether or not you agree, i could honestly care less. I hit well, and thats all that matters. Its just diffrent philosophy's.

wogdoggy

10-03-2008, 05:35 AM

yeah....you can try to time from the on-deck circle, but anyone who has ever played baseball knows how much diffrent it is once you step into the box. And id rather put a good swing on a ball that i have timed or seen before in the at bat on a 0-2, 1-2, 1-1, 0-1 count, than put a bad swing on the first pitch. It only gives the pitcher an advantage if you as a hitter are not confident enough hitting behind in the count. Like is said in my post, i have more than enough confidence in my hitting ability to hit 0-1, or 0-2. Some guys don't. If you look at the majority of games in which a pitcher is shutting down an opponent, most of the hitters are swinging at 1st pitch, it lets the pitcher get in a grove, and it makes quick outs. Im not in anyway a professional hitter, im just a high school kid who knows what my approach at the plate is. Whether or not you agree, i could honestly care less. I hit well, and thats all that matters. Its just diffrent philosophy's.

I agree nick..

wonder if theres a stat on what batter count has the most balls put into play ,,we know theres one on hitting percentages and the count...wonder if hitting percentages go up later in the count versus no count..

scorekeeper

10-03-2008, 11:45 AM

wonder if theres a stat on what batter count has the most balls put into play ,,we know theres one on hitting percentages and the count...wonder if hitting percentages go up later in the count versus no count..

If there isn’t one, all you have to do is create it. ;)

But to tell the truth, I’m not a big fan of simply comparing the count to the result, and I believe its especially important in this particular case. My reason is, what happens on say a 2-2 count, may well be on the 10th pitch of the at bat! That’s why I do several stats by ball/strike count and by REAL count. Also, I believe it makes a big difference in whether or not the pitcher is pitching with runners on base, so at least those two factors should be included in any STAT you do before you try to come to any real conclusions about the results.

swingbuilder

10-04-2008, 10:23 PM

I'd hit the 1st good hittable pitch that is up in the zone in each AB. It may very well be the best pitch you see in the AB. Don't get caught taking the best pitch in the AB just because its the 1st pitch in the AB. Who the pitcher is and the type pitcher he is with the type stuff he has would have to be considered. I have many big league and ex big league friends who say over and over and over to young players that the best way to hit the CB or slider is to not take the fastball. If the straight ball is the 1st pitch and its up in the zone then "chauffer" it!

FiveFrameSwing

10-05-2008, 12:52 AM

Very few HR's are hit on 3-1 counts.

Why judge this based on HRs? Why not judge it based on a successful at-bat? If you did, I suspect you'd have a different result.

p.s.
Consider reviewing the effective batting average for every pitch count. I believe you'll have a different opinion of the 3-1 count after doing this.

bluezebra

10-06-2008, 10:59 AM

Ted Williams said in his book that he would ALWAYS take the first pitch. What do you guys think about this?

GREAT. If you're Ted Williams. Starting out behind, 0-1, isn't the smartest way to bat.

Bob

scorekeeper

10-06-2008, 11:09 AM

Why judge this based on HRs? Why not judge it based on a successful at-bat? If you did, I suspect you'd have a different result.

Sadly, there isn’t any universal definition of a successful at-bat. Some say it’s an AB culminated by a base hit. Some say its an AB culminated by a solid base hit. Some say it’s an AB culminated by a ball hit solidly, even if it resulted in an out. And some even say it could be an AB culminating in a K, where the batter made the P work very hard. ;)

Consider reviewing the effective batting average for every pitch count. I believe you'll have a different opinion of the 3-1 count after doing this.

If you haven’t read read much about that topic, try this article.

http://www.allbusiness.com/health-care-social-assistance/social-assistance-individual/424290-1.html

virg

10-06-2008, 11:58 AM

Why judge this based on HRs? Why not judge it based on a successful at-bat? If you did, I suspect you'd have a different result.
p.s.
Consider reviewing the effective batting average for every pitch count. I believe you'll have a different opinion of the 3-1 count after doing this.

The thinking man's way. How do You do in Your Own game. When you get a read on that then do another study against the best half or third of the pitchers; the ones not being paddled by Tom,Dick& Harry. Williams did not say what he did at ages 12 to 16 There; he was talking MLB.

On that note, I just saw the Cubs Take every first strike, every one down Main Street and then crumble against the peekaboo stuff that Always followed. At least two whole games of it, like they weren't watching their own ball game. The idea is to watch Your game and the pitcher You are facing, what he can/cannot do, know what You can do well, and do just that. What some pro says he does is just another toss-up.

THop

10-06-2008, 02:40 PM

Good points by virg in my opinion. On a personal note, my younger son’s power numbers and batting average really dropped after transferring to a particular D-1 college for his last 2 years. His coach was adamant about taking at least one strike. I think this might have helped us “get into their bullpen sooner” (over a 3 game series) but NO team we played took the number of first pitch, fastball strikes that we did. Not even close. In fact, LOL, I think that’s why we saw so many of them (in conference games anyhow).

In my opinion, college/draft bound high school, JUCO and D-1 pitchers are just too good for a hitting coach to set this as everyday “policy”. Teach those 12-16 year old hitters to anticipate and capitalize on ALL fastball counts and ALL fastball situations. It will increase their odds of excelling in high school and advancing past that. In my opinion.

THop

mudvnine

10-06-2008, 05:44 PM

Each hitter should have a single location that is "his pitch" where he would love to have the pitcher locate a nice fastball for him to drive.

Look for that pitch and location on all pitches prior to two strikes and drive it . . . if it's not there with less then two strikes let it go.

I never understood letting YOUR pitch go, just because you have no strikes in the count yet; as someone else mentioned, you might not get that nice of a pitch again in that at bat.

What's the old saying? "There's no time like the present", take advantage of a pitcher's mistake when you can. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: