Cause of Sidearm

[FeelGoodChicken]

My 10u throws/pitches sidearm. I went on a quest seeking information as to why he throws sidearm, what caused him to do so, the injury factor compared to overhand throwing, and such things related. I’m offering information that I have found out so that it may help someone in a similar situation, and also seeking opinions or discussion.

Information I gathered varied vastly. Some say there is no more of a risk of injure, pending proper balance and mechanics which is an understood statement, while others point to Tommy John’s surgery. Why he throws side arm ranged from his natural arm motion to something he picked up and found easy to do. All this did was to confuse the issue more than when I started.

I’ve talked to coaches, parents, baseball enthusiast, physical therapist, pediatrician, and pitchers, all without my son present.

I decided a week ago to take my son to a physical therapist at the recommendation of his pediatrician.

Without the clinical detail and with my lack of knowledge of anatomy I’ll try to explain his findings in brief. When my son is in a relaxed posture his shoulders are more forward. The PT says, as I understand it, his chest muscles are stronger thus pulling the shoulders forward. In this state, with shoulders forward, an overhand throw is obstructed by the make up of the shoulder. To compensate, my son was forced into a side arm angle. The PT has given us exercises to strengthen the back muscles which should align his shoulders evenly and making the overhand throw easier. That was his assessment with my paraphrasing.

This assessment rang true for me because I see that his shoulders are slightly forward. When I place mine in that position and try to throw overhand, it is a bit painful and awkward. I am not sure as to the reason his shoulders are positioned as such but since his awareness of it, his posture seems straighter. His throwing has made progress with overhand but not with the power and accuracy he had before. That will come again in time.

All of this begs more questions. Are there other kids who throw side arm and have the same problem? Is there really a natural arm slot or as kids, players choose to throw in the easiest slot available to them due to lack of or strength of muscles required to throw a baseball? Will my son’s shoulders be aligned evenly, after building up his back muscles, in a relax posture or during the pitching motion? Et. al.

I just found all of this interesting and thought yall might too.

[BigShug27]

I'm a 10 year old pitcher, almost 11, and I pitch sidearm. I started becauise I was havinb trouble pitching over the top. That and my arm hurt sometimes after just 25 pitches. Its worked for me. My dad did a lot of searching on the intrenet to make sure it was o.k.. My coaches hate it other coaches hate it. other players hate it, but I love it. My control is great, my dad says i throw too many striikes. He always yells at me Hey cowboy what are you doing throwing 0-2 fastballs doen the middle. My arm feels good and I've learmed to throw a nasty slider i dont think Ill go back. Sometimes I go a little more 3/4 to get more speed or something that breaks down, but my change up that I have now breaks a lot too and i'v e got a curve ball that I learned watching shawn Green of the Mariners. All of my grips I learned on my own and probably arent how your supposed to grip them.

[nychamps2k7]

From what i know there is absolutly no harm to throwing sidearm provided he doesnt do this when in the outfield or 3rd base. What position is your son? Because often middle infielders will throw side arm due to the fact that when turning a DP its just plain easier to throw sidearm.

You should have your son learn to vary his release point based on the distance of the throw and the position of his feeting. If he is making a throw on the run then he can throw side arm but if his feet are set he should throw 3/4.

[son who is sidearm]

my son has now been throwing sidearm pretty much his entire life except when he was younger and the coaches from his team would tell me and him he had to throw from over the top( let me tell u they did not know what they were talking about). he is now entirely side arm no matter what position he plays. i have done all the internet searching i could, talked to several retired(semi and pro)ball player and instructors. they all told me its what feels comfortable to the person and the danger is no greater then any other arm slot. the mechanics is what is the most important part of throwing whether u are pitching or playing in the field.

during the course of my sons pitching he has had coaches that would not give him the chance to show what he could do but when he was finally given the chance he just plainly blew their minds and most of the batters he faced. my son made the middle school team this past year and was the #2 starter and the #1 was a 8th grader.

my son could throw from over the top but his controll was all over the place and he has always said it did not feel comfortable to him and he felt more natural when he threw from a lower arm slot. his power is pretty much the same from both slots and he can just plain chuck a ball he has always been able too.

imho its not what we want them to do or how to do it but up to the person that is doing it. for it is their body and they know how it feels when they are doing it. it is just up to us to get them the most and all the information they will need to continue to progress and become the best players they can become

[Chris O'Leary]

My 10u throws/pitches sidearm. I went on a quest seeking information as to why he throws sidearm, what caused him to do so, the injury factor compared to overhand throwing, and such things related. I’m offering information that I have found out so that it may help someone in a similar situation, and also seeking opinions or discussion.

Some comments...

1. Although I used to believe otherwise, I am now of the opinion that there is nothing inherently riskier about throwing sidearm than 3/4. Submariners do seem to run an increased risk of lower back problems, but I don't think they run an increased risk of arm problems.

2. I hold that opinion because many great, injury-free pitchers have been sidearmers. Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Randy Johnson, just to name a few.

3. The only difference between throwing sidearm versus 3/4 is the amount of shoulder tilt.

[FeelGoodChicken]

I tend to agree with you Chris but a lot of factors are involved. These speculations can branch is some many different ways.
But what do you do? Do I let him pitch sidearm now or don’t let him pitch at all and see if his shoulders align properly then re-teach pitching overhand?
I think that is the core question for me right now. Pitch now or wait?



Son who is side arm,

My son can't vary his angle, at least not up to overhand, because of his shoulders right now. So in all positions he throws sidearm.

[Chris O'Leary]

I tend to agree with you Chris but a lot of factors are involved. These speculations can branch is some many different ways.
But what do you do? Do I let him pitch sidearm now or don’t let him pitch at all and see if his shoulders align properly then re-teach pitching overhand?
I think that is the core question for me right now. Pitch now or wait.

I'm not convinced that your PT's theory is correct.

Does he have any pain or discomfort right now?

Do you have any video of your son pitching?

[FeelGoodChicken]

I'm not totally convinced either.

I have old video of him here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6kAZoZNvo


Mechanics are not great but we have worked on the flaws up until our visit to the PT. I have recent video but not on you tube yet.

My son says it doesn't hurt but notice how he shrugs his shoulders at the end of the pitch. He did this during the season also just about every time. This is what started me looking into the sidearm thing.

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm not totally convinced either.

I have old video of him here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6kAZoZNvo

There's nothing really unusual in this video (other than that he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF which I don't like).

He mostly looks like Pedro Martinez.


My son says it doesn't hurt but notice how he shrugs his shoulders at the end of the pitch. He did this during the season also just about every time. This is what started me looking into the sidearm thing.

There's definitely something going on. Something feels weird to him.

How old is he? How many months of the year does he play? How often does he pitch?

[FeelGoodChicken]

There's nothing really unusual in this video (other than that he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF which I don't like).

He mostly looks like Pedro Martinez.




There's definitely something going on. Something feels weird to him.

How old is he? How many months of the year does he play? How often does he pitch?

Actually he was showing the ball to 3B, and I have corrected that to 1b, along with the foot work, striding not stepping toward home, and the leg left.

He is 10, 11 in DEC. Played most of the year, this year, games and practices, but hasn't pitched much. Less than a 100 pitches a week or two, games and practices due to my concerns.

[Chris O'Leary]

He is 10, 11 in DEC. Played most of the year, this year, games and practices,

This could be part of the problem. He's at a vulnerable age and he could be having an overuse/growth plate problem.

Has someone checked his growth plates, especially in his shoulder?

[FeelGoodChicken]

We are going back to his pediatrician soon.

Overuse, I didn't think so but you've got me thinking now. Season was March to June. We have been practicing with other kids twice a week for two hours since June. Those practicing mostly focused on hitting mechanics and not very intense.

[Chris O'Leary]

We are going back to his pediatrician soon.

Good.


Overuse, I didn't think so but you've got me thinking now. Season was March to June. We have been practicing with other kids twice a week for two hours since June. Those practicing mostly focused on hitting mechanics and not very intense.

March to June isn't bad (but year-round is).

What this could be is an ill-timed growth spurt that coincided with the baseball season. During growth spurts the growth plates soften up and make you more vulnerable to problems.

[FeelGoodChicken]

That sounds about right to me because if I am not mistaken he gained 20lbs during the season, grow spurt. Interested to see what the doc says also.

[scorekeeper]

From what i know there is absolutly no harm to throwing sidearm provided he doesnt do this when in the outfield or 3rd base. What position is your son? Because often middle infielders will throw side arm due to the fact that when turning a DP its just plain easier to throw sidearm. …

What HARM could possibly come from an OFr or 3B throwing the ball sidearmed?

[devilsadvocate]

Feelgoodchicken,

Can't comment on the possible muscle weakness causing postural issues. That very well could be and you should trust your PT (or find another). However, I would suggest undertaking the physical therapy/strength work for the purpose of correcting the muscle imbalance and associated postural issues - not for changing the arm slot. It may turn out that your son changes his arm slot on his own - that's fine. But I would refrain from arbitrarily changing it for no good reason. And, so far, I have not heard a good reason. Besides, do you really know what the best slot would be for your son? :think:

There is nothing inherently dangerous about throwing sidearm. And the claim that throwing from one position is more dangerous than throwing from another is just plain silly.

[FeelGoodChicken]

Feelgoodchicken,
Besides, do you really know what the best slot would be for your son? :think:


No, I don't know what the best slot is for him, that is what I am trying to find out and for him and me to figure that out I think it would be best if he practice some in different slots.

But I would refrain from arbitrarily changing it for no good reason. And, so far, I have not heard a good reason.

The reason is in the film above. His shoulder action after every pitch is reason enough to question his side arm throwing. Maybe its nothing but maybe it is.


There is nothing inherently dangerous about throwing sidearm. And the claim that throwing from one position is more dangerous than throwing from another is just plain silly.


I don't beleive in a general statements. There is too many factors that go into throwing a baseball to determine if one way is more "dangerous" than the other.

[devilsadvocate]

No, I don't know what the best slot is for him, that is what I am trying to find out and for him and me to figure that out I think it would be best if he practice some in different slots.
Just to be clear, that wasn't a stab at you. My point was that none of us really know the best arm slot for any given pitcher. Infact, even the great Dr. Andrews whose had a look inside the shoulders of many a pitcher doesn't even go around suggesting arm slots as far as I know. ;)

The reason is in the film above. His shoulder action after every pitch is reason enough to question his side arm throwing. Maybe its nothing but maybe it is.
By "shoulder action", do you mean his lifting of his arm after he releases the ball as if he's working out some discomfort? That could certainly be an indicator of a health issue. But I wouldn't limit the focus of any causal analysis to just the arm slot. As was mentioned above, overuse could play a role as could any number of other things. And I wouldn't assume a single causation.

BTW, I think your son has pretty good mechanics for his age.

[son who is sidearm]

fgc from what i am seeing in your son's vid is that he is using more of his upper body and his lower is dragging especial his hip and left leg. by any mean am i mr o'leary but i have been catchin my son for nearly 4 years and watch his mechanics very closely. the reason ur son might be shrugging his shoulder is his shoulder leads his hip thru his motion in stead of his hip leading his shoulder and put some stress there. ie no kick over to help him square his body to the batter.

my sons shoulder are like what u are discribing rolled foward when he is standing straight up and and just relaxed.

if u really want to find out if this is your son's natural arm slot warm him up and then get some 20-30 feet away and have him get in a kneeling position. first have him have his left knee on the ground and his right foot flat on the ground (like he would possing for a picture on the front row) and have him thro u the ball several times i am taking he is a lefty. watch where the arm slot moves too. then have him do this with both knees on the ground again see if the arm slot is the same. do not tell him why u are doing this just have him throw the ball to u. this was done to my son by afew ppl to see where he would throw from when i took him to a few clinics and some instruction on mechanics and when a ex-pro pitcher evaluated my son for me

[FeelGoodChicken]

Just to be clear, that wasn't a stab at you. My point was that none of us really know the best arm slot for any given pitcher. Infact, even the great Dr. Andrews whose had a look inside the shoulders of many a pitcher doesn't even go around suggesting arm slots as far as I know. ;)
I didn’t take it as a stab at first but there has been so much of that around here sometimes that is what your frame of mind gets into. So I took the statement sort of in the middle. I think I tend to agree that there is no natural arm slot. It’s what feels right to the thrower.
By "shoulder action", do you mean his lifting of his arm after he releases the ball as if he's working out some discomfort? That could certainly be an indicator of a health issue. But I wouldn't limit the focus of any causal analysis to just the arm slot. As was mentioned above, overuse could play a role as could any number of other things. And I wouldn't assume a single causation.
And I’m not. That’s why we are going back to his doc on Tuesday to talk about what the PT said. I feel I’m in the middle of the process to finding what is best for my son, if that can be done. The PT sesssion was not covered by insurance and if I felt it neccassary, I’ll seek out another one. At times I feel like I am going over board in all of this and sometimes not.
BTW, I think your son has pretty good mechanics for his age.
My son thanks you and he says his mechanics are a lot better now that he has worked on his legs and foot work. I agree with him.

[FeelGoodChicken]

fgc from what i am seeing in your son's vid is that he is using more of his upper body and his lower is dragging especial his hip and left leg. by any mean am i mr o'leary but i have been catchin my son for nearly 4 years and watch his mechanics very closely. the reason ur son might be shrugging his shoulder is his shoulder leads his hip thru his motion in stead of his hip leading his shoulder and put some stress there. ie no kick over to help him square his body to the batter.

my sons shoulder are like what u are discribing rolled foward when he is standing straight up and and just relaxed.

if u really want to find out if this is your son's natural arm slot warm him up and then get some 20-30 feet away and have him get in a kneeling position. first have him have his left knee on the ground and his right foot flat on the ground (like he would possing for a picture on the front row) and have him thro u the ball several times i am taking he is a lefty. watch where the arm slot moves too. then have him do this with both knees on the ground again see if the arm slot is the same. do not tell him why u are doing this just have him throw the ball to u. this was done to my son by afew ppl to see where he would throw from when i took him to a few clinics and some instruction on mechanics and when a ex-pro pitcher evaluated my son for me

That vid is not old as in time frame but old as in his development of mechanics. A lot of things have been worked out and I wish I had a current vid to post. I’ll take a look at your suggestion a couple more times and see what we can do. Right now I like to see his shoulders more aligned instead of rolled forward. A full range of movement would make the drill have more impact.
You say your son’s shoulders are the same. What are you thoughts on that, is it a concern for you?

[son who is sidearm]

i am not too concerned at this point he is 13 going to be 14 in nov and is growing like a weed. this past year he went from 5'1 to 5'6 and his shoe went from kids 7 1/2 to adult size 9. and since the end of his first year middle school season he is now a size 10 1/2.

back several months ago i was in a thread about side arm pitching and this one guy and i cant remeber who it was but a link on a bone in the shoulder. how some are straight and some are curved and the effect it has on the shoulder i.e. the rotater cuff i do believe if i remember right. any way a friend who is a x-ray tech in a hospital did me a favor and took a pic for me and it showed him having type 2. so that is when i told my son what ever u do dont listen to ppl when they say ur going to blow ur shoulder or elbow out throwing that way unless they are a specialist and know about ur style of pitching. as far as trying to change his shoulders i feel they might change some since he is working out but it is with light weights and more isometric then anything else. the only heavy weight he is lifting is legs and some lower back and its really not heavey in my eyes tends to be 50-70 for legs and 30-40 on back.

i am trying to get a friend of mine to tape my son pitching but schedules have not helped and we cant get together. and my old cam corder just plain sux.

i will say this in regards to ur son's vid. concidering his age and knowledge of what he is doing he really looks pretty good with a few minor flaws and i am sure with the right help he will come into his own as he progresses.

pm me and we can talk more if u would like

[FeelGoodChicken]

I put up a new video that was taken this weekend. It’s in slow motion and from a lot of angles to better see how he throws. The last two shots are of close ups of his arm motion but I messed up the filming. Interesting that some of the things I thought we had elimanted are still there. Still looks like he is showing the ball to 2B/CF. He dips into the pitch and his front leg is bent to much which causes his back foot to drag and I think hurts his hip rotation. Not sure what to do about this yet. It’s not on this film but he throw some overhand, accuacry wasn’t consistant but not too bad, seemed to have a little more power. What I do like about his mechanics is that he hides the ball better than most and his timing is great. Batters don’t see the ball until almost at the point of release. I still get amazed when watching slow motion video of pitchers and how flexable and weird their arms get. It’s hard to tell from the low quality video but it looks like he pronates. I asked him about it and he said he wasn’t sure if that’s what he does are not. He says he just pitches. Also, on a good note, not once did he shrug his shoulders and show any sign of discomfort or the like.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yad_zCN3vY8

[WingsOfDesire]

On the actual mechanics I'm afraid I can't help out much. I was never closely examined by any real authority on pitching mechanics growing up; however, I did throw sidearm for the ten years I played baseball. Perhaps not in the earliest years, but I'm pretty positive I developed it around the coach/machine pitch level.

It's approximately level with the ground, and straight out from my body, so it's not really close to a submarine style. I definitely had much more control throwing sidearm growing up, and whenever I had a coach or someone try to get me to pitch overhand, it never really worked out.

I'm not sure if it was because of my grip, my lack of speed, or my sidearming that lead to my natural drop in my fastball, but it definitely seems to disappear when I throw as overhand as I can comfortably, even till today. I can still hear the other bench chanting "Meatballer! Meatballer!" when I started warming up. But I could throw that fastball and curve where ever I wanted to just about. Then when I started putting them down I'd hear, "Hey, he's a sidearmer!"

I stuck with just that fastball and a curve. I overused to curve, but you could get away with it mostly in the levels before high school. Overusing the curve is probably not gonna be kind on my elbow in the years to come, but as I do not play baseball currently, or for the last three to four years, I am not too concerned. However, unlike my brother, who pitches overhand, I can tell that my curve slides/sweeps more than his; which is more prone to dropping.

From my personal experience, I can say that the sidearming helped me as a pitcher, I probably would have gotten creamed if I pitched overhand, because I definitely would have been floating meatballs in there. I know it obviously doesn't apply to all sidearmers, but I did feel there was a benefit to it.

[FeelGoodChicken]

The visit to my son’s regular pediatrician was really a nothing. She is sending him to a Orthopedic Pediatrician after looking at the Physical Therapist evaluation.

[airplouffe86]

from a college player...throwing at 3quarters to side arm is the best way to go. (in the infield)

When i throw somewhat sidearm i feel like i can really use the rotation of my body to throw, and then use my fingers and wrist to seemingly flick the ball 200 feet. Mind you, throwing that way puts just about no stress on your arm.

plus I have noticed with a lot of guys that throwing over the top is less accurate than guys who throw 3 quarters.

There shouldnt be injury problems with throwing sidearm...

What would concern you more in the way he throws is what rotation the ball has when he throws...

Is the rotation back spin or completely sideways? If he can at least keep a decent back spin on the ball there should be no problem. (yes is possible)

[FeelGoodChicken]

from a college player...throwing at 3quarters to side arm is the best way to go. (in the infield)

When i throw somewhat sidearm i feel like i can really use the rotation of my body to throw, and then use my fingers and wrist to seemingly flick the ball 200 feet. Mind you, throwing that way puts just about no stress on your arm.

plus I have noticed with a lot of guys that throwing over the top is less accurate than guys who throw 3 quarters.

There shouldnt be injury problems with throwing sidearm...

What would concern you more in the way he throws is what rotation the ball has when he throws...

Is the rotation back spin or completely sideways? If he can at least keep a decent back spin on the ball there should be no problem. (yes is possible)

I don't have a concern with sidearm when he plays shortstop. I do with pitching. I would also like to see overhand in the outfield mainly because of the movement on his ball when sidearm. His ball spin is sideways, throwing from the outfield in, who knows where the ball is going over that distance.

I don't think sidearm is as big of an issue. The make up of his shoulders and what not which makes him throw sidearm is. I would like to find out what it should be, if it is correctible and should be corrected, normal, or that is just the way he is.

[airplouffe86]

I don't have a concern with sidearm when he plays shortstop. I do with pitching. I would also like to see overhand in the outfield mainly because of the movement on his ball when sidearm. His ball spin is sideways, throwing from the outfield in, who knows where the ball is going over that distance.

I don't think sidearm is as big of an issue. The make up of his shoulders and what not which makes him throw sidearm is. I would like to find out what it should be, if it is correctible and should be corrected, normal, or that is just the way he is.

i would think that its possible for him to keep his arm from shoulder to elbow somewhat parallel to the ground and then vary the angle of the rest of his arm....

If he simply cant do what your asking of him, then like another poster said, he should feel confortable, but for the best consistancy and velocity...the ball should have backspin or at least 3 quarters back spin. That way, from the outfield he will throw more on target.

My little brother has the same problem i think....But i can tell you that he doesnt work at throwing like he should....We throw every once in a while, and he is completely side arm and side spin...Needless to say, I long toss just about 3 times as far as he does.

So ya...remember that he can keep a side arm throwing motion and still have 3 quarters back spin when he releases the baseball...That seems to be ideal for him.