For the umpteenth time -- OVERHAUL THE AS GAME VOTING!!

[Dodgerfan1]

The Major League Baseball All-Star game voting method is a freaking joke! Every year, we get fans voting for favorites rather than those who actually deserve to be an AS. We get fellow players doing the same thing (Varitek voted in as second AL catcher instead of Pierzynski? Most people can't stand AJ, but he was more qualified than Varitek to be on the '08 AS team). We have the ridiculous 'inclusion' rule which states that every team in the league MUST be represented in the game. All this completely lends itself to farce. Why should the losing team in the ASG be saddled with 'visitor' status during the World Series when their all their best players weren't even in the game that decides who the 'visitor' is?

I have thought for years that this type of All-Star selection makes a mockery of the ASG. It's time to overhaul the darned thing. Any comments on this?

Sorry if this was discussed during the AS break. If so, I didn't see it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The Major League Baseball All-Star game voting method is a freaking joke! Every year, we get fans voting for favorites rather than those who actually deserve to be an AS. We get fellow players doing the same thing (Varitek voted in as second AL catcher instead of Pierzynski? Most people can't stand AJ, but he was more qualified than Varitek to be on the '08 AS team). We have the ridiculous 'inclusion' rule which states that every team in the league MUST be represented in the game. All this completely lends itself to farce. Why should the losing team in the ASG be saddled with 'visitor' status during the World Series when their all their best players weren't even in the game that decides who the 'visitor' is?

I have thought for years that this type of All-Star selection makes a mockery of the ASG. It's time to overhaul the darned thing. Any comments on this?

Sorry if this was discussed during the AS break. If so, I didn't see it.

You honestly didn't see it? There were several threads on that subject, here and in some team forums, as well.

Before I merge this, what are your suggestions for improvement? No method would be perfect as has been discussed. The ASG has never claimed to be anything more than an exhibition game staged for the fans, which is why they vote in the first place. Why would it be in the league's interest to take the one tiny cookie they even bother to give the fans besides the actual product of baseball itself?

[Dodgerfan1]

You honestly didn't see it? There were several threads on that subject, here and in some team forums, as well.

Before I merge this, what are your suggestions for improvement? No method would be perfect as has been discussed. The ASG has never claimed to be anything more than an exhibition game staged for the fans, which is why they vote in the first place. Why would it be in the league's interest to take the one tiny cookie they even bother to give the fans besides the actual product of baseball itself?

No, I actually didn't see the threads. I tend to contribute in spurts. Sorry for the retread of the subject!

Personally, I believe that if it's a showcase for the fans, then let it remain that way. Don't make the home team in the WS contingent upon the winner, for one thing. In my opinion, that DOES suggest to the fans that it is something more than just an exhibition game, since it affects 'real' games. If only the best players are not going to be represented, then the ASG should not affect the WS at all. A coin flip would be a fairer method, IMO.

Secondly, I don't believe that anyone would be taking any 'cookie' away from the fans. I didn't suggest there be no ASG, I just suggested the way the voting is done be overhauled. There is no good way to remove bias from the voting, unfortunately (See 1947 MVP voting!). Can we find a way to ensure that fans only vote ONCE? That would alleviate much of the fan bias aspect of it by disallowing ballot box stuffing.

I would also do away with the dumb rule that states every team has to be represented. Why? This rule helps ensure that some deserving players are left out in the cold while a less deserving player is in, merely by virtue of the fact that he plays for a certain team.

There are ways to be able to ensure the best players are actually on the field. Just my two cents, since I missed the conversation a while back!:)

[Captain Cold Nose]

No, I actually didn't see the threads. I tend to contribute in spurts. Sorry for the retread of the subject!

Personally, I believe that if it's a showcase for the fans, then let it remain that way. Don't make the home team in the WS contingent upon the winner, for one thing. In my opinion, that DOES suggest to the fans that it is something more than just an exhibition game, since it affects 'real' games. If only the best players are not going to be represented, then the ASG should not affect the WS at all. A coin flip would be a fairer method, IMO.

Secondly, I don't believe that anyone would be taking any 'cookie' away from the fans. I didn't suggest there be no ASG, I just suggested the way the voting is done be overhauled. There is no good way to remove bias from the voting, unfortunately (See 1947 MVP voting!). Can we find a way to ensure that fans only vote ONCE? That would alleviate much of the fan bias aspect of it by disallowing ballot box stuffing.

I would also do away with the dumb rule that states every team has to be represented. Why? This rule helps ensure that some deserving players are left out in the cold while a less deserving player is in, merely by virtue of the fact that he plays for a certain team.

There are ways to be able to ensure the best players are actually on the field. Just my two cents, since I missed the conversation a while back!:)

I thought as much, spurty. And that actually did cross my mind, you simply weren't around.

So, how would you revamp the voting? That would be the hardest of all, the other proposals you offered are certainly logical, but how would you be able to stop ballot stuffing?

Before the internet, it was a lot harder to vote, but that didn't prevent fans attending games from stuffing ballots, I would take a couple ballots whenever I was at a game and I would use them. It always gave an advantage to players who had home games right before the voting ended. I remember one year Willie Randolph was able to pass Lou Whitaker as the starting second basemen when his Yankees played a home stretch right before the voting ended and the Tigers were on the road.

[KCGHOST]

It's easy to say the voting is a joke, but how about offering a suggested improvement?? Even under the best of circumstances you will always have difficulties with people who prefer players with at least a couple years of top flight play before they will vote them in over an incumbent all-star.

As you have noted the players aren't any better than the fans at voting. Those of us who can remember back to the late fifties when the Cincinnati Reds fans stuffed the ballot to get a bunch of their players elected. This led to a voting rule change that removed the fans from the balloting process all together in favor of the players. That was just as ugly.

It would be nice if they 1) dropped the one player per team rule (exception the host team must get a player on the team) and 2) had a maximum number (5??) so that the managers don't bring half their own team (see Joe Torre).

[Mild Sauce]

They either need to get rid of the fan voting or the home field rule, the two cannot co-exist when you really look at it.

I say get rid of the home field rule. This is an exhibition game that was created as something for the fans to watch. This is something that is supposed to completely be for the fans. Let them vote in the players that they want to watch, that's the reason this game was created in the first place.

[Dodgerfan1]

They either need to get rid of the fan voting or the home field rule, the two cannot co-exist when you really look at it.

I say get rid of the home field rule. This is an exhibition game that was created as something for the fans to watch. This is something that is supposed to completely be for the fans. Let them vote in the players that they want to watch, that's the reason this game was created in the first place.

I can get with this. Ballot box stuffing should not affect a World Series. If I had my 'druthers, I'd rather see a way to prevent ballot box stuffing and KEEP the home field rule in the ASG than to eliminate the home field rule and allow ballot box stuffing. I know the game is for the fans, but it only benefits a handful of fans when the ballot box is stuffed by THOSE fans. The rest of the fans around the country have to deal with the unfair tactics. We frequently gripe about tainted records and tainted players. Well, ballot box stuffing definitely taints the integrity of an ASG. That's coming from one of the fans (me) whom this game was created for. I know that many players no longer have making the ASG as an incentive in their contracts. Who can blame them when the better players are so often overlooked for lesser players? Too much of a crapshoot sometimes the way it is currently.

[spark240]

I know that many players no longer have making the ASG as an incentive in their contracts. Who can blame them when the better players are so often overlooked for lesser players?

Again (for the umpteenth time?), comments like this follow the assumption that the ASG must feature the definitively best players at their positions, for each league. This has never been officially, explicitly stated, and has rarely if ever been the reality; it's always just been an assumption from a certain category of fans.

Even if the ASG is recognized as a popularity contest--and that's all it really can be, as long as there's any voting by anyone involved in selection--it still can make sense for All-Star selection to be incentivized in contracts. After all, we can all cite "name" players who draw fans and media attention despite not being as sabermetrically valuable as others with lower profiles, right?

Come to think of it, the Dodgers may be building their whole team on this principle. :D

[Mild Sauce]

I can get with this. Ballot box stuffing should not affect a World Series. If I had my 'druthers, I'd rather see a way to prevent ballot box stuffing and KEEP the home field rule in the ASG than to eliminate the home field rule and allow ballot box stuffing. I know the game is for the fans, but it only benefits a handful of fans when the ballot box is stuffed by THOSE fans. The rest of the fans around the country have to deal with the unfair tactics. We frequently gripe about tainted records and tainted players. Well, ballot box stuffing definitely taints the integrity of an ASG. That's coming from one of the fans (me) whom this game was created for. I know that many players no longer have making the ASG as an incentive in their contracts. Who can blame them when the better players are so often overlooked for lesser players? Too much of a crapshoot sometimes the way it is currently.

I mostly agree with you. The only thing I don't agree with is that I feel it's for all fans. Even if the players you wanted to see in the game don't get in there, the fans still get to see all the biggest stars of the game play in one single game. That alone is a lot of fun for the fans. Anyway, I'd also just love to get rid of the home field thing, putting the stars from one league against the stars from the other league shouldn't have to do with 2 teams and home field in a series.

[Defense Counts!]

Two questions ...

1) How does fan voting prevent the best players from being in the ASG? The fans only vote for the STARTERS. The rest of the players, including the pitchers, are chosen by the managers. Even if the best player at a certain position doesn't get voted in, the manager can include him.

2) Is there really a "home-field advantage" in the WS? What are the stats on this?

[PF#9]

To address the concerns about players that deserved to be in a given game but did not get selected to go, I have a novel idea which dates almost 50 years.

The way to go is to have 2 ASG's each year, one in an AL park and one in an NL park. So theoretically, many of the best players that did not get selected to the first All-Star game can be selected to the second. To make up for the lost 3 days, on 3 other days of the year there can be scheduled doubleheaders (which would work best with a 4-division alignment, so that there can be only division rivalries).

And as for how this affects the voting process, a new vote would be held for the second game, with most of the players that were in the first game not on the ballot for the second (only a selected few, and even they may not be voted to play). The rule that every team has to be represented would only apply to the first game. Anyone that did not get to play in the first game could automatically get selected for the second.

[Dodgerfan1]

2) Is there really a "home-field advantage" in the WS? What are the stats on this?

I do recall one year in particular, I believe it was in the '80s and the Twins were involved, when the home team won every game of a seven game series. I don't know the actual statistics you are looking for, but there are certain teams that have a decided advantage when playing at home as opposed to on the road.

[NewEnglandAmazins]

2) Is there really a "home-field advantage" in the WS? What are the stats on this?


18 of the last 22 World Series were won by the team with home field advantage with a winning percentage of .679.

[Dodgerfan1]

18 of the last 22 World Series were won by the team with home field advantage with a winning percentage of .679.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. There is a decided home field advantage in the WS and the ASG result decides that advantage. I don't think that's right. Also, it was the 1987 WS I was alluding to above. The Twins defeated the Cards in seven games, every single game being won by the home team.

[NewEnglandAmazins]

There is a decided home field advantage in the WS and the ASG result decides that advantage. I don't think that's right.

Bud Selig shouldn't trivialize homefield advantage in the World Series just to satisfy TV Network executive's need for higher ratings. Why not schedule the ASG on a Sunday and treat it like the Super Bowl (6PM start)? I don't know why it's played on a Tuesday anyway. And if the players need extra incentive, make a shiny All-Star Game trophy for them to hold...if they win.