Dr. Mike Marshall

[Masters]

I was wondering everyone’s opinion on Dr. Mike Marshall's Philosophy of pitching? He clams his pitchers throw higher quality pitches, more intensity, and never get hurt. Is this indeed true? Has anyone tried it?

[Jake Patterson]

I was wondering everyone’s opinion on Dr. Mike Marshall's Philosophy of pitching? He clams his pitchers throw higher quality pitches, more intensity, and never get hurt. Is this indeed true? Has anyone tried it?
Masters, we have discussed Doc a great deal. I would search BBF for threads that have "Marshall" and read, read, read... Fastball95 is one of Doc's current students and can answer any question you might have. I would suggest you PM him. I visited Doc some time ago and found the trip well worth the time.
I would also suggest you visit Doc's site.
Jake

[Gmaddux3132]

Masters,

I have been training with Dr. Mike Marshall since august of 07 and all of his "clams" are correct. We throw high quality pitches, more intensity then traditional pitchers, and never will get injured.

The first day I showed up at DOC's camp with threw a bullpen traditionally and the next day we started his training program (Wrist weights and iron ball). After the first day of training the pain in my elbow and shoulder went away and I've been pain free for about a year. So that kind of speaks for its self.

www.Drmikemarshall.com

[Mark H]

And the opposition argument is where's the success?

[mudvnine]

Masters,

I have been training with Dr. Mike Marshall since august of 07 and all of his "clams" are correct. We throw high quality pitches, more intensity then traditional pitchers, and never will get injured.

The first day I showed up at DOC's camp with threw a bullpen traditionally and the next day we started his training program (Wrist weights and iron ball). After the first day of training the pain in my elbow and shoulder went away and I've been pain free for about a year. So that kind of speaks for its self.

www.Drmikemarshall.com

I'm curious as to how you or Dr. Marshall define "intensity", as it is a very subjective term and what is used to measure it when comparing one pitcher against another?

[Quiz]

What does the radar gun say? Anyone able to break 90s or higher with this method yet?

[ralanprod]

I'll sum up where this is going to go...

Marshall teaches a different form of pitching designed to be "safer",
and from most accounts it has been.

People who don't agree with Marshall's training style will point out that it has yet to produce effective results on the big league level.

People who do agree with Marshall will say that is because of lack of opportunity, lack of the methods being used widely, and various conspiracy theories centering around MLB not wanting to change.

People who don't agree with Marshall will say that's bunk, say if a pitcher is good, he is going to make the show regardless of style.

People who agree with Marshall will say player "x" is tearing it up in the _____ league, he just hasn't been given a shot at the biggs yet.

And so on and so on....

[Gmaddux3132]

Ralanprod – I agree with you statements 100% there isn’t a Marshall Pitcher in
Major Leagues today and until there is one there will be skeptics out there. Keep in mind if you’re throwing 90+ and have the opportunity to play pro ball are you going to risk losing that to learn how to throw another way? Chances are no. That is why Marshall’s Pitchers aren’t the cream of the crop. And he doesn’t train pitchers that throw 90+. He usually get guys in the 70’s, low 80’s or ones that have arm problems. To get the full benefit out of Marshall’s pitching mechanics you have to do the FULL program not just parts (which takes 724 days). Most people are just looking for a quick fix. But in reality there isn’t one.

Mark H
“And the opposition argument is where's the success?”

Well I can tell you that I can throw every single day as hard as I can without any soreness. I started Dr. Mike Marshall’s program throwing 75mph to 78mph and at the Florida Marlines Tryout I threw 82mph to 84mph. That’s 6 mph I gained in 7 months. That seems like a far trade I think.

Mudvnine

Intensity is defined as throwing every pitch just as hard as you can. In traditional pitching you are told as a starter to pass yourself to go as long as you can. Don’t throw as hard as you can because you’ll get tired. In Doc’s motion we can throw as hard as our genetics will allow us to, without pain soreness. It wouldn’t be uncommon for us to throw well over 100 pitches and be fine and ready to throw again the next day.

[Gmaddux3132]

Quiz ill let you know when i get there

[PhilliesPhan22]

Doc's students seem to lack in velocity over traditional pitchers. However, that Maxline curve looks like the real deal. Unfotunately to get noticed today its all about velocity.

[Baseball gLove]

My son went to a Jaeger long toss throwing camp for 3 days. He came out of the camp gaining 5 mph after 3 days.

[azmatsfan]

My son went to a Jaeger long toss throwing camp for 3 days. He came out of the camp gaining 5 mph after 3 days.

Are you going to have your son move in with Jaeger for the next two years so he can work with him every day? :p

[Baseball gLove]

He just turned 16 and he's throwing in the mid to high 80's. We are in no hurry to get to 90. I think just growing into his current 6'1", 140 pound frame will get him there. He has 2 year of high school to go.

[Drill]

he we go again

[PhilliesPhan22]

he we go again

This debate isn't as bad as the hitting one:p

[3and0]

He just turned 16 and he's throwing in the mid to high 80's. We are in no hurry to get to 90. I think just growing into his current 6'1", 140 pound frame will get him there. He has 2 year of high school to go.

Wow, someone lankier than me. What does your osn do for conditioninmg and training?

[TG Coach]

he we go again

:grouchy:grouchy:grouchy:grouchy:grouchy

Unfortunately this site doesn't have the icon of two smileys beating on each other.

[Gmaddux3132]

My son went to a Jaeger long toss throwing camp for 3 days. He came out of the camp gaining 5 mph after 3 days.


Then why doesnt your son train every day with him so every 3 days he will gain 5 mph?

[Gmaddux3132]

You guys say that there is no one that does Marshall's pitching mechanics that throws over 90. 2 years ago Dan Robinson came in throwing 89 and threw 95mph at a dodgers tryout and they didn’t take him. Dan quit after that. Jeff Sparks went from throwing 79mph to 96mph but you guys don’t recognize that a real, for what reason?

Doc is the only qualified person to tell you how the body should work in regards to the pitching.
And 40 years of research proves that.
When No one has EVER had an injury using his motion don’t you think you would take a look at it? But because of all the big words and uneducated people out there, you guys look down on it. And because you don’t understand and no one is doing it in the MLB why should you right?

[Masters]

If Jeff and Dan both increased their velocity and threw over 95 that seems like a pretty solid clam to me. :rofl:

[kylebee]

Sigh. Please close this thread.

[Baseball gLove]

You guys say that there is no one that does Marshall's pitching mechanics that throws over 90. 2 years ago Dan Robinson came in throwing 89 and threw 95mph at a dodgers tryout and they didn’t take him. Dan quit after that. Jeff Sparks went from throwing 79mph to 96mph but you guys don’t recognize that a real, for what reason?

Doc is the only qualified person to tell you how the body should work in regards to the pitching.
And 40 years of research proves that.
When No one has EVER had an injury using his motion don’t you think you would take a look at it? But because of all the big words and uneducated people out there, you guys look down on it. And because you don’t understand and no one is doing it in the MLB why should you right?

It's a conspiracy. :shrug: No MLB manager will sign a Marshall pitcher throwing 95 mph at league minimum in order to save millions of dollars. :shrug: They'll let Outman and Lincecum throw but no Marshall guys. :shrug: :shrug::shrug:You guys just keep pouring it on. There is NO proof behind any of your statements. We have been able to peel statement after statement. You guys do not throw faster, you guys do not have superior control and you don't release closer to the plate.

[Baseball gLove]

Then why doesnt your son train every day with him so every 3 days he will gain 5 mph?

Well he already throws faster than most Marshall guys. Why rush?

[Baseball gLove]

If Jeff and Dan both increased their velocity and threw over 95 that seems like a pretty solid clam to me. :rofl:

Last year Jeff Sparks was clocked at a tryout with the Tigers at 84 mph. Marshall's gang claims he was in regression. If so, why show up to show potential employers how slow he's throwing?

[azmatsfan]

I know MM is big on it being all or nothing with his mechanics. And that you have to live in the compound, shave your head, sell flowers in the airport, or whatever. But is it possible there is validity to some of Marshall's ideas? I have to say I am intrigued by the extreme pronation on the pitches, taking some of the pressure off the elbow and some of his weight training to prevent injury. Anyone out there with opinions on just these parts of Marshall's mechanics?

[dm59]

MLB teams let Wakefield in with knuckleballs, Chad Bradford with submarine, Dontrelle with those funky mechanics, etc., etc. So, why wouldn't they let these oh so amazing Marshall guys in, especially with such blazing speeds from superior physics, lack of injury risk and such nasty motion too? The conspiracy theories just make no sense.

[Baseball gLove]

I know MM is big on it being all or nothing with his mechanics. And that you have to live in the compound, shave your head, sell flowers in the airport, or whatever. But is it possible there is validity to some of Marshall's ideas? I have to say I am intrigued by the extreme pronation on the pitches, taking some of the pressure off the elbow and some of his weight training to prevent injury. Anyone out there with opinions on just these parts of Marshall's mechanics?

Yes, there is some merit. If you read the threads you will see that there is some agreement with a part of Marshall's thoughts on pitching, especially pronation.

[Mark H]

Well I can tell you that I can throw every single day as hard as I can without any soreness. I started Dr. Mike Marshall’s program throwing 75mph to 78mph and at the Florida Marlines Tryout I threw 82mph to 84mph. That’s 6 mph I gained in 7 months. That seems like a far trade I think.

.

I understand the conditioning process with Mike is exemplary and it would no doubt be beneficial to any number of athletes to work that hard. How much of the gain is hard work all athletes should be doing and how much is mechanics? Who knows. Good luck with your training.

[Postblank]

Sigh. Please close this thread.
We'll keep it nice and smooth and not make any sudden left turns. Wouldn't want you to toss your cookies again. :ughh

Last year Jeff Sparks was clocked at a tryout with the Tigers at 84 mph. Marshall's gang claims he was in regression. If so, why show up to show potential employers how slow he's throwing?It would take a couple weeks of competitive in-game throwing to get fully out of regression. Not the kind of competition you'd find at a men's league either, at least not for someone of Jeff or Joe's pedigree. But why he showed up in regression was probably more not really wanting to get signed. For the other guys, they're still climbing the training cycle so the benefits of a velocity spike would be offset by not being fully ready yet. (See: Kubenka, Jeff)

I understand the conditioning process with Mike is exemplary and it would no doubt be beneficial to any number of athletes to work that hard. How much of the gain is hard work all athletes should be doing and how much is mechanics? Who knows.I'd argue relation of the benefit between the two inseparable. We no doubt benefit from the overload training with up to thirty pounds of wrist weights and a fifteen pound ball, but those who load their pitching forearm traditionally probably can't even do the 5 lb WW and 2-3 lb ball that a 13-18-year-old Marshall program kid can do.

As far as velocity goes, the traditional loading action isn't a bad way to throw a baseball. But coupled with the injury risk, the traditional body action and inability to train with much higher than a 5.5 oz ball means that only the absolute freaks will survive.

[epic]

It would take a couple weeks of competitive in-game throwing to get fully out of regression. Not the kind of competition you'd find at a men's league either, at least not for someone of Jeff or Joe's pedigree. But why he showed up in regression was probably more not really wanting to get signed. For the other guys, they're still climbing the training cycle so the benefits of a velocity spike would be offset by not being fully ready yet. (See: Kubenka, Jeff)


Postblank,

Two questions:

1. What became of Jeff Kubanka? I haven't heard anything about him since he decided to move on with life.

2. Are you at Doc's right now?

Sam is headed there at the end of next week before he goes back to school. He had a really nice summer season.

[cosmo34]

Then why doesnt your son train every day with him so every 3 days he will gain 5 mph?

I'm sure something called "physical limitations" make this physically impossible.

30 days=50 MPH. Start at 70 and in one month you're throwing 120. Come on.


Doc is the only qualified person to tell you how the body should work in regards to the pitching.

Only? I say again, come on.

[Postblank]

Postblank,

Two questions:

1. What became of Jeff Kubanka? I haven't heard anything about him since he decided to move on with life.

2. Are you at Doc's right now?

Sam is headed there at the end of next week before he goes back to school. He had a really nice summer season.1. Doc mentioned something a while ago about what Kubenka was up to, but I can't really recall what it was. It was some kind of regular job, wife, kid and family pet set-up.

2. I train at Doc's in the morning, but I've moved into my own place better suited for my introversion. I heard Sam was coming down with his girlfriend, I guess the sight's of central Florida are worth sharing with others.

[Deemax]

Whats Marshalls relationship with Jeff Kubenka? Is this someone he trained?

[Postblank]

Whats Marshalls relationship with Jeff Kubenka? Is this someone he trained?Yes, I don't have the precise details but he trained with Marshall down in Florida and got signed by the Dodgers. Marshall said he wasn't ready (he had use of only the torque fastball and either the sinker or a screwker). So he pitched for them anyway, breezed through the system and was a September call up in '98. He had some success the first time around like Sparks, high K/9, high BB/9 and got called up the next season and two really bad outings pretty much finished him.

[Mark H]

I'd argue relation of the benefit between the two inseparable. We no doubt benefit from the overload training with up to thirty pounds of wrist weights and a fifteen pound ball, ...


I understand your point but I should better explain mine. I wasn't speaking to the specific exercises Mike advocates but rather the intensity and consistency of whatever workout regimen an athlete chooses.

[Hargrave]

Traditional throwers are unable to work with anything approaching the consistentcy and intensity of Marshall's training because the act of throwing destroys their arms.

Every throw a traditional thrower performs makes that thrower weaker and more injured.

Every throw a Marshall thrower performs makes that thrower stronger and healthier.

No traditional throwers throw every day at 100 percent intensity. Their arms hurt too much every day. They have to rest to allow the inflammation to subside.

Traditional throwers could not even withstand one day of Marshall iron ball and wrist weight exercises at youth league resistances because their force-application technique would ensure their biological tissues would become separated from their joints.

Say and think what you will about Marshall's technique. But his are the only throwing athletes outside of track and field that throw every day at 100 percent intensity, which utilize specific exercises without anything extraneous, and which do not suffer pain, inflammation, and tenderness.

[PhilliesPhan22]

What to Marshall pitchers do with runners on base? How do the mechanics translate in the stretch position?

[dm59]

Traditional throwers are unable to work with anything approaching the consistentcy and intensity of Marshall's training because the act of throwing destroys their arms. .....his are the only throwing athletes outside of track and field that throw every day at 100 percent intensity, which utilize specific exercises without anything extraneous, and which do not suffer pain, inflammation, and tenderness.That all may be well and good. Nobody here has disputed that, as far as I've seen. What is questioned is the ability to throw at high velocities, not high intensities. That's all. I can throw all day at 15 mph. Does that mean that I'm going to be successful at the highest levels? I don't think so.

[Hargrave]

I don't know the answer to that.

I was a position player with a good arm. I was hurt often and after many arm surgeries, unable to play.

I took few years off, discovered Marshall, began training on my own. My shoulder discomfort disappeared almost immediately.

After two years, I began throwing pain free and almost as well as before I was injured.

It's the basic arm motion javelin throwers use and they achieve very high release velocities even without their running start. I don't think the technique imposes any velocity constraints.

Frankly, I don't care, as the method served its purposes for me.

[kylebee]

The Marshall pitchers have so far struggled with command/control of the pitches. This is most likely because Dr. Marshall trains them to be throwers and to perfect the release of their pitches, rather than actually training them to be pitchers. To be quite fair, however, Dr. Marshall addresses this in his Q&A files and says that he is not training them to be game-ready, and that is something they need to do on their own.

With my experiences in training my HS kids using Coach45's methods (RPM Pitching) - which are a subset of Marshalls to some degree - command/control go out the window very fast, and without specific bullpens (throwing to hitters, catcher-specific drills, simulated games, etc) I can't imagine it would come back very fast. Furthermore, as a sabermetrician, I highly question Dr. Marshall's ideas on how to pitch to the "four types of hitters." He has done very basic statistical research that is flawed and based on limited sample sizes and has drawn conclusions based on this shaky evidence, which limits the types of pitches the pitcher can throw in given counts. Using data from PITCHf/x and other types of tracking systems, we can figure out what the best types of pitches to throw in given counts are to different types of hitters using stats like nRuns100. While that's all a bit verbose for this board, you can read more about it in the SABR board on Baseball Fever if you're interested.

[Gmaddux3132]

I'm sure something called "physical limitations" make this physically impossible.

30 days=50 MPH. Start at 70 and in one month you're throwing 120. Come on.



Only? I say again, come on.

Exactly! Physical limitations. With the traditional Pitching motion you only throw 80% to 90% of your genetic maximum (Physics proves that), but with Marshall's program you get closer to 100% of your maximum.

And with the training he has us do we gain velocity easier over a longer spectrum then throwing long toss and clamming 5 mph.
If a training program really works it should work for everyone and be consistent.

[Gmaddux3132]

The Marshall pitchers have so far struggled with command/control of the pitches. This is most likely because Dr. Marshall trains them to be throwers and to perfect the release of their pitches, rather than actually training them to be pitchers. To be quite fair, however, Dr. Marshall addresses this in his Q&A files and says that he is not training them to be game-ready, and that is something they need to do on their own.

With my experiences in training my HS kids using Coach45's methods (RPM Pitching) - which are a subset of Marshalls to some degree - command/control go out the window very fast, and without specific bullpens (throwing to hitters, catcher-specific drills, simulated games, etc) I can't imagine it would come back very fast. Furthermore, as a sabermetrician, I highly question Dr. Marshall's ideas on how to pitch to the "four types of hitters." He has done very basic statistical research that is flawed and based on limited sample sizes and has drawn conclusions based on this shaky evidence, which limits the types of pitches the pitcher can throw in given counts. Using data from PITCHf/x and other types of tracking systems, we can figure out what the best types of pitches to throw in given counts are to different types of hitters using stats like nRuns100. While that's all a bit verbose for this board, you can read more about it in the SABR board on Baseball Fever if you're interested.


Do you know how RPM started?
The creater wanted the rights to Marshalls Stuff so he could make money. Marshall denied him of those right there for he got angry and became ANTI- marshall. Gave his kids a leg lift and claims that he came up with something new. After having his own son train with marshall for 3 or 4 years getting denied exclucive right and rebeling. doesnt that sound kinda strang to you?

[kylebee]

Do you know how RPM started?
The creater wanted the rights to Marshalls Stuff so he could make money. Marshall denied him of those right there for he got angry and became ANTI- marshall. Gave his kids a leg lift and claims that he came up with something new. After having his own son train with marshall for 3 or 4 years getting denied exclucive right and rebeling. doesnt that sound kinda strang to you?

We could obviously go back and forth on this issue, since I'm sure that's what you were told by Dr. Marshall. Bill says otherwise, and so forth - the truth is somewhere in between.

I will say that I have no problems with someone trying to make a living coaching baseball players. That Dr. Marshall does it for free doesn't mean it's wrong to charge for lessons.

[Gmaddux3132]

Well he already throws faster than most Marshall guys. Why rush?


Most Marshall guys?
And Whats the RUSH?

the fact that if you dont do marshalls program your son will in the end injury himself period.

Now when he does you will think maybe this all could have been prevented if we did mike marshalls program.

[kylebee]

the fact that if you dont do marshalls program your son will in the end injury himself period.

This is humorous coming from a guy named Gmaddux3132. Tell me, how many days did Greg end up on the disabled list in his career? Did he ever train with Dr. Marshall?

[Gmaddux3132]

We could obviously go back and forth on this issue, since I'm sure that's what you were told by Dr. Marshall. Bill says otherwise, and so forth - the truth is somewhere in between.

I will say that I have no problems with someone trying to make a living coaching baseball players. That Dr. Marshall does it for free doesn't mean it's wrong to charge for lessons.

I totally agree! I would love to make money of this motion myself. But he wanted to take all the profits himself and cut doc out.

But to change something and clam that he knows more and thought of something doc didn’t think off? Come on, Really? The guy studied his whole life and he missed something that Bill somehow figured out without a degree in biomechanics or kinesiology?

[Gmaddux3132]

This is humorous coming from a guy named Gmaddux3132. Tell me, how many days did Greg end up on the disabled list in his career? Did he ever train with Dr. Marshall?



No, but if you look at Greg Maddux on every pitch what does he do? Pronate and he has a pendulum swing. Exactly what doc teaches

[Gmaddux3132]

Kyle i love quote
"You have to face reality some time. But there's no sense in facing it until somebody forces you to." -Billy Beane

Thats pretty funny to me

[kylebee]

I totally agree! I would love to make money of this motion myself. But he wanted to take all the profits himself and cut doc out.

But to change something and clam that he knows more and thought of something doc didn’t think off? Come on, Really? The guy studied his whole life and he missed something that Bill somehow figured out without a degree in biomechanics or kinesiology?

No, but if you look at Greg Maddux on every pitch what does he do? Pronate and he has a pendulum swing. Exactly what doc teaches

To your first point: It's called confirmation bias. Furthermore, his statistical approach to attacking hitters is flat out wrong. I could prove him wrong, but he won't listen, so what's the point?

As for Greg Maddux - what if Baseball gLove's son is doing the same thing? He has repeatedly said that he pronates the release of his pitches and uses a pendulum swing arm action.

[Gmaddux3132]

To your first point: It's called confirmation bias. Furthermore, his statistical approach to attacking hitters is flat out wrong. I could prove him wrong, but he won't listen, so what's the point?

As for Greg Maddux - what if Baseball gLove's son is doing the same thing? He has repeatedly said that he pronates the release of his pitches and uses a pendulum swing arm action.

About proving Doc wrong Id like to hear it?
And if baseball glove's son pronates and pendulum he's doing exactly what doc teaches just without the body motion and no training. If he didn’t the training program he wouldn’t have any soreness EVER once he completed it and he'd be able to pitch every game and throw as many pitches as he wanted.

[azmatsfan]

But why he showed up in regression was probably more not really wanting to get signed.

So he pitched for them anyway, breezed through the system and was a September call up in '98. He had some success the first time around like Sparks, high K/9, high BB/9 and got called up the next season and two really bad outings pretty much finished him.

Let me get this straight. The only reason Sparks wasn't signed my a MLB team is because he didn't want to be signed. And then Kubanka didn't make it because of 2 bad outings after tearing it up in the Minors? It seems every time a Marshall cultist fails there's an excuse for it.

[scorekeeper]

kylebee,

Please explain nRuns100 and how it can be used to determine the best types of pitches to throw.

[Gmaddux3132]

Let me get this straight. The only reason Sparks wasn't signed my a MLB team is because he didn't want to be signed. And then Kubanka didn't make it because of 2 bad outings after tearing it up in the Minors? It seems every time a Marshall cultist fails there's an excuse for it.

Everyone of us goes to the tryouts just to have fun and throw to a catcher and throw nasty pitches that make people say WOW. We dont go to get signed because are in regression. Now if we were out of regression and we went to a tryout thats a different story.

Joe played for tommy johns team and they cut him after he gave up 1 hit and struck 5 or 6 guys out keep in mind the one guy that got a hit off him was carl everett and it was a bloop single to center. Explain that!?

[Gmaddux3132]

MLB teams let Wakefield in with knuckleballs, Chad Bradford with submarine, Dontrelle with those funky mechanics, etc., etc. So, why wouldn't they let these oh so amazing Marshall guys in, especially with such blazing speeds from superior physics, lack of injury risk and such nasty motion too? The conspiracy theories just make no sense.

Because they cant teach it. And your right it makes no sense

[Mark H]

Traditional throwers are unable to work with anything approaching the consistentcy and intensity of Marshall's training because the act of throwing destroys their arms.

Every throw a traditional thrower performs makes that thrower weaker and more injured.

Every throw a Marshall thrower performs makes that thrower stronger and healthier.

No traditional throwers throw every day at 100 percent intensity. Their arms hurt too much every day. They have to rest to allow the inflammation to subside.

Traditional throwers could not even withstand one day of Marshall iron ball and wrist weight exercises at youth league resistances because their force-application technique would ensure their biological tissues would become separated from their joints.

Say and think what you will about Marshall's technique. But his are the only throwing athletes outside of track and field that throw every day at 100 percent intensity, which utilize specific exercises without anything extraneous, and which do not suffer pain, inflammation, and tenderness.

Yes they can throw everyday at 100 percent but so far high level ball doesn't seem to care and I don't mean that in a smart aleck way. I should attempt to again clarify my point. Since your post followed mine it seems maybe I did not make myself clear again. I said athlete and workout regimen. I did not say anything about pitchers or throwing. IOW, I'm impressed by the reports of how hard and consistently Mike works his students. This is missing in today's youth ball players to a great extent. Addressing baseball, kids pitch too much and don't throw enough. They don't run enough, lift enough, whatever and this is true of most kids in sports across the board.

[scorekeeper]

I truly don’t get why ya’ll who absolutely hate MM and everything he stands for don’t just ignore the man, his disciples, and everything anyone wants to say about him. What is it you’re afraid of? If he’s such a failure, why not just allow what kingdom he may have to collapse in on itself?

You MM haters are the ones who keep him and what he teaches alive by continuing to takes shots at what is supposed to be a totally discredited dead man! Why do you care if someone wants to throw his way or anyone else’s way? Is he hurting anyone?

[Mark H]

Exactly! Physical limitations. With the traditional Pitching motion you only throw 80% to 90% of your genetic maximum (Physics proves that), but with Marshall's program you get closer to 100% of your maximum.

.

So following your math, Marshall guys should be throwing what, 10 to 20% faster than traditional pitchers?

[Mark H]

I truly don’t get why ya’ll who absolutely hate MM and everything he stands for don’t just ignore the man, his disciples, and everything anyone wants to say about him. What is it you’re afraid of? If he’s such a failure, why not just allow what kingdom he may have to collapse in on itself?

You MM haters are the ones who keep him and what he teaches alive by continuing to takes shots at what is supposed to be a totally discredited dead man! Why do you care if someone wants to throw his way or anyone else’s way? Is he hurting anyone?

If he's involving young people in a pipe dream fantasy world of his own making, then yeah, he is hurting people by wasting their time and youth. If he's right, then maybe one of these days we'll see. It's been years but maybe one of these days someone will prove his stuff works in real games against real high level hitters. I think the reaction you describe as hating is a reaction to Mike and his followers attitude and claims that the rest of the world is a bunch of arm wrecking child abusers and Mike is Neo, the one and only who can lead us out of this mess. Yeah, OK, show me or shut up is many people's reaction.

[kylebee]

kylebee,

Please explain nRuns100 and how it can be used to determine the best types of pitches to throw.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/doubling-up/

Josh Kalk writes for my site as well - you can email him directly (josh@drivelinemechanics.com) if you are interested in his work, or search The Hardball Times for his other work on Runs100 as well.

[scorekeeper]

Josh Kalk writes for my site as well - you can email him directly (josh@drivelinemechanics.com) if you are interested in his work, or search The Hardball Times for his other work on Runs100 as well.

I read that article, but it doesn’t explain nRuns100. That’s why I asked you since you’re a Sabermetrician.

I’ll drop him a line.

[kylebee]

I read that article, but it doesn’t explain nRuns100. That’s why I asked you since you’re a Sabermetrician.

I’ll drop him a line.

Sorry, Josh Kalk is not the originator of the work. John Walsh is:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/searching-for-the-games-best-pitch/

At any rate, I haven't actually done the research, but with tools like PITCHf/x, we can start the analysis. Dr. Marshall's work is outdated and inaccurate in any case.

[scorekeeper]

If he's involving young people in a pipe dream fantasy world of his own making, then yeah, he is hurting people by wasting their time and youth. If he's right, then maybe one of these days we'll see. It's been years but maybe one of these days someone will prove his stuff works in real games against real high level hitters. I think the reaction you describe as hating is a reaction to Mike and his followers attitude and claims that the rest of the world is a bunch of arm wrecking child abusers and Mike is Neo, the one and only who can lead us out of this mess. Yeah, OK, show me or shut up is many people's reaction.

What young people is he involving? From listening to his detractors, as far as I know, all he has is a bunch of never-was’s and never-will-be’s. And even if he did, what harm is he doing them if they make a conscious choice to follow his teachings? Will players end up crippled for life or in a ward for the criminally insane if they listen to MM? Or is it that they’ll miss their big chance to get to the ML or whatever level?

Heck, thousands and thousands of players make poor career choices every single day that have absolutely nothing to do with MM, but you’re gonna worry about the 15 or 20 every year that choose to follow his teachings.

To tell the truth, I couldn’t care less if his stuff works or not! Its none of my concern. But I’d sure be interested in seeing some ratios printed. Let’s get a count of every individual player that say Tom House has influenced in any way what-so-ever. Remember, he’s sold millions of books, articles, and vids, had of thousands of clinics, and prolly given tens of thousands of individual lessons. Once the numbers have been calculated, what percentage actually make it to whatever magic place or level you’re looking for? For the sake of argument, let’s say that place is a 25man MLB roster. Heck if he’s had 500 guys get there, out of the total numbers he’s had the chance to fully effect from say 8YO, his ratio might not be as good as MM’s.

As I said, I really don’t care, but it sure gets old to see the haters take what would probably be a 10-15 post thread, and turn it into a marathon. This one’s a great example. In 3 days there’s been 61 posts, and chances are its gonna end up being 200-300 by the time its done. Heck, if a child molester made a post about abusing ball players it wouldn’t get that kind of action!

[beemax]

As I said, I really don’t care, but it sure gets old to see the haters take what would probably be a 10-15 post thread, and turn it into a marathon. This one’s a great example. In 3 days there’s been 61 posts, and chances are its gonna end up being 200-300 by the time its done. Heck, if a child molester made a post about abusing ball players it wouldn’t get that kind of action!

If you don't care, then why do you keep posting?

A child molester? IMO a very poor, tasteless, and uncalled for analogy there.

People enjoy debating MM stuff on here. Sometimes it gets out of hand, but it always creates action on the board. If you do not like what is going on with a particular thread, I suggest you pm Jake or just ignore it. IMO complaining about 61 posts in 3 days on a single thread is a little hypocritical when you have made 4 posts in the last three hours on said thread.

Anyway, I would like to hear the opinions of all out there who may not have read this quote from MM a few weeks back on his website:

I have absolutely no doubt that I can teach and train baseball pitchers to go three times through major league line-ups twice a week for fifty-two weeks a year for a minimum of twenty consecutive years. The only thing that I cannot guarantee is how skilled they will become.

Thoughts? Comments?

[scorekeeper]

At any rate, I haven't actually done the research, but with tools like PITCHf/x, we can start the analysis. Dr. Marshall's work is outdated and inaccurate in any case.

Outdated, yes. Inaccurate, prolly. Would you care to take a guess about how many others, many of them anointed baseball gurus you could say the same about?

I suspect that as the technology gets better and more people get more access to it and start playing around, a lot of baseball dogma is gonna take a hit, and some will be confirmed with fact rather than guesses.

The only thing that makes me sad, is that no matter what happens, extrapolating the data from the ML to the levels without the technology is gonna forever cause problems. FI, you can make all the findings you want at the ML level, and draw all the conclusions, like what was said about doubling up pitches, but it will always be a mistake to try to apply it to the lower levels, in all but the most general of ways because it will always be an inferior brand of ball in every way.

[kylebee]

FI, you can make all the findings you want at the ML level, and draw all the conclusions, like what was said about doubling up pitches, but it will always be a mistake to try to apply it to the lower levels, in all but the most general of ways because it will always be an inferior brand of ball in every way.

I agree completely.

[scorekeeper]

If you don't care, then why do you keep posting?

How many of my posts have been either pro or con MM?

A child molester? IMO a very poor, tasteless, and uncalled for analogy there.

How do you figure it was an analogy? All it was meant to do was show how something much more important in the scheme of things wouldn’t draw as much attention.

People enjoy debating MM stuff on here. Sometimes it gets out of hand, but it always creates action on the board. If you do not like what is going on with a particular thread, I suggest you pm Jake or just ignore it. IMO complaining about 61 posts in 3 days on a single thread is a little hypocritical when you have made 4 posts in the last three hours on said thread.

As I said, how many of my posts have been pro or con MM? The 1st post I made here was about a metric. The 2nd was because I was tired of hearing the same old garbage. And if you’ll notice, it was neither pro nor con MM. The 3rd post I made was again about that same metric. The 4th was just asking for any kind of proof that the man was hurting anyone. The 5th was again about that metric, but more about pitch f/x. In fact, Kyle seemed to understand that I wasn’t talking about MM, but about the much broader aspects of the game. Then there will be this one where again it isn’t about MM, but rather about people who seem to get some kind of enjoyment out of saying almost exactly the same things over and over again as soon as they see or hear MM.

Anyway, I would like to hear the opinions of all out there who may not have read this quote from MM a few weeks back on his website:

I have absolutely no doubt that I can teach and train baseball pitchers to go three times through major league line-ups twice a week for fifty-two weeks a year for a minimum of twenty consecutive years. The only thing that I cannot guarantee is how skilled they will become.

Thoughts? Comments?

Its curious that you’d spend even one second of your precious life, rifling through someone’s web site you seem to revile. Seems like a waste of time to me, but since you asked …

I think it’s a perfectly good quote, and its very likely he can do exactly what he says. He doesn’t say he can train EVERY baseball pitcher to do it, and he doesn’t make any claims as to how much statistical success they’ll have, no matter how that’s measured. And finally, he definitely doesn’t claim he’ll turn them into HOF pitchers.

So what’s your opinion of what he said.

[beemax]

Scorekeeper,

As for your lack of pro or con posts, I think it is beside the point. I am not interested in getting into a post-off over every quote with you either. I have done it before and it benefits nobody.

As for your quotes:


Its curious that you’d spend even one second of your precious life, rifling through someone’s web site you seem to revile. Seems like a waste of time to me

In your opinion, I may "seem" to revile MM, but I don't. I disagree with some of his methods, as I have posted in here for many months, but all in all I am particularly fascinated by someone thinking so far outside of the box, whether it is right or wrong.

I peruse his Q and A stuff from time to time for that reason.

I think it’s a perfectly good quote, and its very likely he can do exactly what he says. He doesn’t say he can train EVERY baseball pitcher to do it, and he doesn’t make any claims as to how much statistical success they’ll have, no matter how that’s measured. And finally, he definitely doesn’t claim he’ll turn them into HOF pitchers.

So what’s your opinion of what he said.

I think it is a flawed quote because on one hand, he is saying that he can train someone to go through a MLB lineup more often than those who do today, yet he cannot guarantee their success.

I understand that he cannot guarantee their success, but the whole part about going through a lineup three times twice a week is predicated on that success.

There is also zero proof to back up this claim. However, I am not saying that his students are not physically capable of doing this. Let that be known.

[Gmaddux3132]

So following your math, Marshall guys should be throwing what, 10 to 20% faster than traditional pitchers?

No that’s not what I’m saying at all. This is where we are obviously losing you. 10 % to 20% harder then when the person training comes in. Regardless of what the speed they came in throwing. If you start at throwing 50 mph or 90mph you will throw 10% to 20% harder. We had a guy throw 64mph a few years ago and now throws low 80's. I myself have gained 6mph and that was back in march. So the sky is the limit. You will never know how hard you’re going to throw until you do the program. Why do you think everyone that comes to marshall believe everything he says? Because we drank the cool ad? no. I pitched in college had a low 3.00 high 2.00 era. At one time pitched 33 innings in a row not giving up a run. Now the reason I came to marshall was to get ride of the soreness in my arm. Since I’ve been here (since august 2007), I have no pain. And I’m throwing harder then I did when I started his program.

[Gmaddux3132]

If he's involving young people in a pipe dream fantasy world of his own making, then yeah, he is hurting people by wasting their time and youth. If he's right, then maybe one of these days we'll see. It's been years but maybe one of these days someone will prove his stuff works in real games against real high level hitters. I think the reaction you describe as hating is a reaction to Mike and his followers attitude and claims that the rest of the world is a bunch of arm wrecking child abusers and Mike is Neo, the one and only who can lead us out of this mess. Yeah, OK, show me or shut up is many people's reaction.

Well No one in the history of Dr. Marshall's program has ever been hurt. Explain that? Now as for traditional pitching ummm I don’t actually know the Numbers per say but umm lets just say it’s a lot.

What about ASMI? They clam to have all the answers for just $5,000 they'll tell you what u need to do to never get injured. Well we know of 5 or 6 guys that went there that paid and are now injured. Shouldn’t they be held accountable too? And they supposable know what they are talking about because they are biomechanics.

I think I'm going to go with the sure Arm saver Dr. Mike Marshall

When someone does make it, does that mean you’ll have your kid and everyone you know doing it too?

[Gmaddux3132]

Sorry, Josh Kalk is not the originator of the work. John Walsh is:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/searching-for-the-games-best-pitch/

At any rate, I haven't actually done the research, but with tools like PITCHf/x, we can start the analysis. Dr. Marshall's work is outdated and inaccurate in any case.

Yeah? How so

[TG Coach]

You guys say that there is no one that does Marshall's pitching mechanics that throws over 90. 2 years ago Dan Robinson came in throwing 89 and threw 95mph at a dodgers tryout and they didn’t take him. Dan quit after that. Jeff Sparks went from throwing 79mph to 96mph but you guys don’t recognize that a real, for what reason?

Doc is the only qualified person to tell you how the body should work in regards to the pitching.
And 40 years of research proves that.
When No one has EVER had an injury using his motion don’t you think you would take a look at it? But because of all the big words and uneducated people out there, you guys look down on it. And because you don’t understand and no one is doing it in the MLB why should you right?

Here we go again with the Marshall is a genuis again. You guys should all move to Marshalltown and drink the Kool Aid.

[TG Coach]

Last year Jeff Sparks was clocked at a tryout with the Tigers at 84 mph. Marshall's gang claims he was in regression. If so, why show up to show potential employers how slow he's throwing?

Only Sparks' career is in regression.

[Gmaddux3132]

If you don't care, then why do you keep posting?

A child molester? IMO a very poor, tasteless, and uncalled for analogy there.

People enjoy debating MM stuff on here. Sometimes it gets out of hand, but it always creates action on the board. If you do not like what is going on with a particular thread, I suggest you pm Jake or just ignore it. IMO complaining about 61 posts in 3 days on a single thread is a little hypocritical when you have made 4 posts in the last three hours on said thread.

Anyway, I would like to hear the opinions of all out there who may not have read this quote from MM a few weeks back on his website:



Thoughts? Comments?


That's what he is training us to do. He can teach us the skills but if we dont learn them thats our problem. We can throw every day because of the motion he has us doing. Heck ive been throwing 72 pitches everyday since august of 2007, and thats not including the 96 iron balls i throw prior to the 72 pitchs or the 24 wrist wieghts i do that are 20lbs or the lid or football throws. All in all i throw over 200 throws a day. I remember when i first learned this motion. I would go out and throw 12 buckets of 24 baseball and wake up the next day fine. I threw 3 buckets of 24 baseballs a piece to 12 jv players 3 times comes out to 2592 and that was after my workout of over 200 throws already and i woke up the next day fine and did my workout again. It all depends on how fast the fast twitch muscle fibers are in your arm for how fast you can throw. But with mike marshall's motion i believe with no doubt that if you threw 85mph atleast you could dominate in college and even the MLB.

[TG Coach]

the fact that if you dont do marshalls program your son will in the end injury himself period.


This is the extremist stuff that sets people off. A kid isn't guaranteed hurting his arm by not using Marshall's method. I pitched through college without hurting my arm throwing 85-87 (lefty :)).

[Gmaddux3132]

There is also zero proof to back up this claim. However, I am not saying that his students are not physically capable of doing this. Let that be known.

You're right there isn't and the reason for that is no one put in the time to do his full program to completion. It is not till i believe last year that someone actually finished his program. So in the next 5 or 6 years we should see if his claim can be fufilled.

[Gmaddux3132]

Only Sparks' career is in regression.


If you watch clips of Jeff. By the score there’s a think called a radar gun that I believe says 90 or 91 maybe you should take a look at it before you type your ridiculous babble again thanks.

[Gmaddux3132]

This is the extremist stuff that sets people off. A kid isn't guaranteed hurting his arm by not using Marshall's method. I pitched through college without hurting my arm throwing 85-87 (lefty :)).


As did I. But it all depends on the amount of stress you put on your UCL and shoulder. And maybe you’re pronated or pendulum swung your arm idk but Docs program if done right is impossible to hurt yourself. Now I don’t want to have a chance to get hurt if I don’t have to

[Gmaddux3132]

This is the extremist stuff that sets people off.


Extremist? It falls in the same category as if you don’t take a vaccination for Polio your going to die... now is there a chance your wont? Yes, but do I want to take that chance, no probably not.

[Deemax]

Extremist? It falls in the same category as if you don’t take a vaccination for Polio your going to die... now is there a chance your wont? Yes, but do I want to take that chance, no probably not.

Dang.

This is a nice case that your not extremist. :laugh

[Gmaddux3132]

Dang.

This is a nice case that your not extremist. :laugh



Thats my point the fact that docs not extrem...

[Postblank]

Let me get this straight. The only reason Sparks wasn't signed my a MLB team is because he didn't want to be signed. And then Kubanka didn't make it because of 2 bad outings after tearing it up in the Minors? It seems every time a Marshall cultist fails there's an excuse for it.Well, you failed miserably at getting what I said "straight," so I suppose I have to elucidate just for you.

-If Jeff showed up to tryouts out of regression he would've thrown harder. That's all. There are more factors to getting signed at an open tryout than velocity, so your assertion is way off base.

-Kubenka had two horrific outings that sent his ERA into a place that would've required a longer leash to get back down. (There are these things called gamelogs, you can even verify this independently!) He was a prospect that already had established a high BB/9 and was starting to get swung upon. At no point did I claim Kubenka could've had a fantastic career, he had two pitches and it turned out to not be enough.

-Breezing through the minors isn't exactly the same as "tearing through the minors." Kubenka was in the majors two years after getting drafted without much in the way of developmental setbacks. He was by no means a "lights out" guy but he did well enough to keep getting promoted. (This is also easily verifiable information.)

EDIT: Also this cult thing is reaching a whole new strata of annoying. If I was as curt about how some of you choose to live your lives, I can't imagine receiving very even-headed responses.

[kylebee]

Yeah? How so

Marshall used data from the 70's and thinks it applies to today's environment. The facts are: He arrived at his conclusions incorrectly, OBP and SLG correlate best with runs scored (walks allowed is very important; Marshall "does not mind walks"), and that the amount of hits a pitcher allows is largely based on luck (BABIP/DIPS theory, if you care to research it), but Marshall thinks you can control it.

These are all verifiable facts based on sound mathematical principles that any beginner/intermediate student of sabermetrics can understand. If you care to learn more, read up on The Hardball Times and Baseball Prospectus.

[kylebee]

Extremist? It falls in the same category as if you don’t take a vaccination for Polio your going to die... now is there a chance your wont? Yes, but do I want to take that chance, no probably not.

Please. The hyperbole coming out of Dr. Marshall's camp is unbearable, including people like you. It really puts a bad face on people who want to incorporate his methods at the HS/College level, like RPM Pitching and myself.

[kylebee]

And maybe you’re pronated or pendulum swung your arm idk but Docs program if done right is impossible to hurt yourself.

Really? I have proof that you are wrong. Someone's shoulder was hurt in your camp using Marshall's mechanics and full training regimen.

[Baseball gLove]

If you watch clips of Jeff. By the score there’s a think called a radar gun that I believe says 90 or 91 maybe you should take a look at it before you type your ridiculous babble again thanks.

Jeff Sparks was using a kick and stride to get to 92 mph and his foot was turned sideways. Not Marshall approved mechanics.

FYI, he also had surgery on his throwing arm elbow after he had been under Marshall's wing about 8 years.

[PhilliesPhan22]

So, how does pitching from the stretch work with the Marshall Plan???

[Gmaddux3132]

Marshall used data from the 70's and thinks it applies to today's environment. The facts are: He arrived at his conclusions incorrectly, OBP and SLG correlate best with runs scored (walks allowed is very important; Marshall "does not mind walks"), and that the amount of hits a pitcher allows is largely based on luck (BABIP/DIPS theory, if you care to research it), but Marshall thinks you can control it.

These are all verifiable facts based on sound mathematical principles that any beginner/intermediate student of sabermetrics can understand. If you care to learn more, read up on The Hardball Times and Baseball Prospectus.

The facts Doc has acquired are by keeping track of all his pitches during a set time, figuring out the lowest batting average against them and using them in a sequence. Walks are better then giving up a hit but he doesn’t want to walk anyone he wants to strike them all out. Have you ever thrown Doc's sequences? No probably not. You can control what the batter does that’s why the sequences are so valuable. If you can throw the pitches you will dominate. I watched Joe pitch in spring training this year and everyone struck out or hit a weak ground ball pathetically to an infielder. I also had the chance to watch Jeff pitch. He didn’t allow a hit struck 6 guys out in 3 innings.

As for your theories that you are so intrigued about... I don’t have the slightest clue what they nor do I care. Doc's motion and theories are all proven to work therefore I need not go elsewhere. Every other pitching coach has changed his philosophy numerous time over there career of coaching. Now if they're not sure then why would I let them teach me or anyone else for that matter?

[Gmaddux3132]

Please. The hyperbole coming out of Dr. Marshall's camp is unbearable, including people like you. It really puts a bad face on people who want to incorporate his methods at the HS/College level, like RPM Pitching and myself.


You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Once you realize that doc isn’t full of himself and his philosophy holds up by science maybe you'll understand the frustration.

But until then the continuous waste spooling out of your mouth is annoying. After ever statement I make you have something to say and once I Give my response you never bring it up again and find something else to whine about

[Gmaddux3132]

Really? I have proof that you are wrong. Someone's shoulder was hurt in your camp using Marshall's mechanics and full training regimen.


Who's that? Pat?
He had a pre-existing injury. On the front of his shoulder. Oh let me guess that's exactly where it still hurt after his INCORRECT TRAINING. Pat dropped his elbow and pulled across. Shown when he constantly slapped himself in the back (still made fun of by the guys today). Therefore putting stress on his anterior deltoid. Anything else?

[epic]

Who's that? Pat?
He had a pre-existing injury. On the front of his shoulder. Oh let me guess that's exactly where it still hurt after his INCORRECT TRAINING. Pat dropped his elbow and pulled across. Shown when he constantly slapped himself in the back (still made fun of by the guys today). Therefore putting stress on his anterior deltoid. Anything else?

He could be talking about the two guys who hurt themselves in Colorado last year after they began to change...

[epic]

I asked this in another thread, but no one ever responded: Is Pat playing ball now? Are any of the three guys who used to train with Doc but then stayed in Colorado playing now? Did any of them make college teams? Did the two who hurt themselves with the "new" mechanics recover, or are they done?

[Gmaddux3132]

Jeff Sparks was using a kick and stride to get to 92 mph and his foot was turned sideways. Not Marshall approved mechanics.

FYI, he also had surgery on his throwing arm elbow after he had been under Marshall's wing about 8 years.

The leg kick was to and look traditional and the stride is exactly what we do now. Approved by Doc Taught by doc. Ridiculous pitter patters once gain.

Jeff had torn his UCL 3 times before he pitched with DOC. Trained 8 years with 3 separate calcium deposits in his elbow was in spring training with the Brewers hurt his back due to the Med ball drills they had him doing. Was out for a month, came back got into throwing again and jumped into full intensity straight off the bat without easing into it had some discomfort in his arm. The brewers suggested a MRI, and they found the OLD 3 calcium deposits and doc told Jeff to get the surgery because no major league team will sign someone who has a destroyed UCL even though we can tech pitch without one.

[Gmaddux3132]

I asked this in another thread, but no one ever responded: Is Pat playing ball now? Are any of the three guys who used to train with Doc but then stayed in Colorado playing now? Did any of them make college teams? Did the two who hurt themselves with the "new" mechanics recover, or are they done?

Pat is not pitching right now on a team. Sam is in Oklahoma pitch at a school I don’t recall the name, Jason lives next door to me and he's finishing his 15lb and 30lb recoils. Mike Just left this morning to go to school for the fall to play. One of the kids headed back to Pen and is trying to pitch there. One is getting married and isn’t going to play anyone I would guess.

As for the injured players I don’t know what happened to them.

[TG Coach]

If you watch clips of Jeff. By the score there’s a think called a radar gun that I believe says 90 or 91 maybe you should take a look at it before you type your ridiculous babble again thanks.

Speaking of babble, what team is Sparks pitching for? Game, set, match. Shut up!

[Gmaddux3132]

He could be talking about the two guys who hurt themselves in Colorado last year after they began to change...

I think since he works with Pat's dad he’s talking about Pat. Because the 2 guys that changed their mechanics trained with Pat and RPM which Pats dad started and clams to prevent pitching arm injuries yet injured these 2 pitchers that had no problem pitching with Marshall’s mechanics

[TG Coach]

So, how does pitching from the stretch work with the Marshall Plan???

They're so damn fast to the plate with all their velocity, they don't need to hold runners! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[epic]

Pat is not pitching right now on a team. Sam is in Oklahoma pitch at a school I don’t recall the name, Jason lives next door to me and he's finishing his 15lb and 30lb recoils. Mike Just left this morning to go to school for the fall to play. One of the kids headed back to Pen and is trying to pitch there. One is getting married and isn’t going to play anyone I would guess.

As for the injured players I don’t know what happened to them.

Sam will be there the end of next week (Thursday night/early Friday). I hope you and Jason will be around while he's there. He thought about going through San Antonio to see Mike when he heads back, but with current gas prices he won't be able to go that far out of his way. He's anxious to see/work with the javelin.

[PhilliesPhan22]

They're so damn fast to the plate with all their velocity, they don't need to hold runners! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Thats what I thought, thanks;)

[TG Coach]

Sam is in Oklahoma pitch at a school I don’t recall the name

Would that be Nowhere State? I found a Marshall pitcher at an obscure Massachusetts D3. After a 7+ era his first year he was gone.

[Gmaddux3132]

Speaking of babble, what team is Sparks pitching for? Game, set, match. Shut up!


Sir, Jeff has other goals in his life then being the spokes person for DOC. He's 36 years old and furthering his education to be something more then a pitcher. And it doesn’t matter where Jeff is this thread is about DOC’s motion. Jeff has all the skills and abilities to pitch for any club right now. But because of the Lack of intellectual understanding of people mainly you and people like you. He is not accepted. When Jeff pitched for the Devil Rays can you tell me home many left handed hitters got hits off of him? I believe it was something like Left handers are 3-48 against him... That’s pretty good. And the d-rays released him with a 3.54 era that year? Striking out more then 1 batter an inning.

Slowly people are incorporating Dr. Mike Marshall's stuff into pro-ball everyday. Pendulums swing, pronating. I believe that Brett Strom for the St. Louis Cardinals is teaching Doc Pronation Curveball. The only think not accepted in doc motion is the body motion. Once that gets approved you'll be completely confused and then you'll have to start teaching DOC's motion. And when that day comes you might finally understand.

BTW, you couldn’t do one day of the training I do.
Name some training that you or your son does that has made a significant increase in velocity and can be repeated over and over again to get that velocity high and high over his career until he reaches his Maximum velocity. Name something that you do that causes your body to make physiological adjustment and actually make you a stronger pitcher? Explain why you do long toss but you don’t incorporate that throwing motion into your pitching motion? (If you did it would be what doc teaches) Just name one thing that you do that actually trainings a pitcher in your eyes.

[Gmaddux3132]

Would that be Nowhere State? I found a Marshall pitcher at an obscure Massachusetts D3. After a 7+ era his first year he was gone.

It’s actually Becker College. And there are 2 pitchers there. Once again if you do not pitch the sequences and do not do what DOC teaches or are unable to perform the skills you will not be Successful.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

[Gmaddux3132]

Sam will be there the end of next week (Thursday night/early Friday). I hope you and Jason will be around while he's there. He thought about going through San Antonio to see Mike when he heads back, but with current gas prices he won't be able to go that far out of his way. He's anxious to see/work with the javelin.

Yeah we will be here. The Javelin is very interesting and a lot of fun I'm sure he'll enjoy it.

[Gmaddux3132]

So, how does pitching from the stretch work with the Marshall Plan???

Just like our wind up just apposed to our glove foot being behind the rubber its infront

[epic]

Would that be Nowhere State? I found a Marshall pitcher at an obscure Massachusetts D3. After a 7+ era his first year he was gone.

Yes-Western Oklahoma State College. And it is in the middle of nowhere, but they did have a few players drafted this year.

Sam's history and potential have been discussed on this board before. From a high school career where he ocassionally broke 70mph with a 1A team that won a grand total of two games (maybe just one) his last two years, to his training with Doc, to his red shirt year with WOSC (1/2 scholarship) where he was low to mid 80s in the fall, to now-he has a full scholarship at WOSC for this year.

"Nowhere State?" Yes. But these guys, baseball wise, were headed to "No Where Period" before their work with Doc.

[TG Coach]

My son just turned fifteen. He's a 14U eligible playing 16U. He just grew seven inches in the past year to 5'11". He's expected to be 6'2". At 5'11", 145 he's threw 80mph as a freshman. He does long toss to strengthen his arm. I'll guess he'll at least get to the 85-87 I threw at. He has never had a sore arm. I don't allow him to pitch excessively. His pitching from ages 9-11 was very limited.

I don't have to explain anything to you about how and why what he does works. I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1. You completely lack any credibility with me. In my eyes you're a Hare Krishna with a baseball glove.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Just like our wind up just apposed to our glove foot being behind the rubber its infront


But you are still facing the pitcher or sideways?

[TG Coach]

It’s actually Becker College. And there are 2 pitchers there. Once again if you do not pitch the sequences and do not do what DOC teaches or are unable to perform the skills you will not be Successful.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

Becker baseball is a joke. It's an obscure program in an onscure conference. They went 7-23 last year. An average high school player can play at a program like Becker. I'm sorry. I'm not impressed. My son's 16U travel team would beat Becker.

[TG Coach]

But you are still facing the pitcher or sideways?

Marshall pitchers don't compete on the field. They throw to a tarp. I've never seen a tarp throw out a runner so it doesn't matter is the pitcher holds the runner.

[epic]

My son just turned fifteen. He's a 14U eligible playing 16U. He just grew seven inches in the past year to 5'11". He's expected to be 6'2". At 5'11", 145 he's threw 80mph as a freshman. He does long toss to strengthen his arm. I'll guess he'll at least get to the 85-87 I threw at. He has never had a sore arm. I don't allow him to pitch excessively. His pitching from ages 9-11 was very limited.

I don't have to explain anything to you about how and why what he does works. I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1. You completely lack any credibility with me. In my eyes you're a Hare Krishna with a baseball glove.


My oldest son, too, pitched at the D1 level. His greatest regret is that he did not discover Doc's stuff until after his college eligibility was over. Of course, he might well have dismissed it at that time. After all, what he had always done was working. He knows now.

[scorekeeper]

Marshall used data from the 70's and thinks it applies to today's environment. The facts are: He arrived at his conclusions incorrectly, OBP and SLG correlate best with runs scored (walks allowed is very important; Marshall "does not mind walks"), and that the amount of hits a pitcher allows is largely based on luck (BABIP/DIPS theory, if you care to research it), but Marshall thinks you can control it.

These are all verifiable facts based on sound mathematical principles that any beginner/intermediate student of sabermetrics can understand. If you care to learn more, read up on The Hardball Times and Baseball Prospectus.


Kyle,

It is possible that the metrics used today in analyzing ML players simply might not hold true if all P’s were MM students because the entire basis of the numbers might change.

And, although you and I in our understanding of the game know how detrimental walks can be, there is no mathematical or physical principle that says they have to be. Most of the time, a walk changes not just the way the fielders are positioned, but very often pitches and pitch sequences chosen. Also, I think it goes without saying that any runner on base forces a P to devote something less than his full focus on the one guy he should be concentrating on, the batter. If there is something that can be done to improve that mindset, you nor anyone else can definitively prove that it doesn’t help immensely.

How does BABIP/DIPS prove that hits can’t be controlled? Unless I misunderstood what you said, you admit the amount of hits a pitcher allows is largely based on luck. Well, LARGELY is definitely not COMPLETELY, and unless I’m really not understanding the way things work, even if one can only control a minute part of something, that’s still control.

Look, I love numbers too, and love to see what information people can gain from studying them. But I think its important that those numbers be kept in context. Much of the time Sabers spend, is in trying to equalize the numbers they’re looking at by taking into account many different things, like BPFs. That’s why the numbers are very often broken down into categories like against LHPs/RHPs, throwing from the stretch, BAWRISP, and a million others. Until there’s some empirical data proving something one way or the other, all you’re doing is theorizing.

[epic]

LMFAO! Low to mid 80's! BFD! A decent athlete can get there on his own. My son is at 80 just turning fifteen.

I am pleased for your son that he is genetically gifted. I am pleased for my son that he has worked very hard to get where he is now. I am more pleased that his coach thinks enough of him to give him a full ride this year. They hope to return to the JUCO D2 World Series again this year.

I did not say that low to mid 80s is a big deal. But the jump from high 60s is.

Sam is a "decent athlete." He was a varsity basketball player (went to regionals his senior year), varsity cross country, varsity track. He still couldn't get to 80s before he worked with Doc.

I am sorry that you feel the need to insult Sam (I don't believe you've ever met him), and be rude to me. I don't think I have been anything but cordial in this thread.

[TG Coach]

I am sorry that you feel the need to insult Sam (I don't believe you've ever met him), and be rude to me. I don't think I have been anything but cordial in this thread.

My apologies. You're a victim by association. Your partners in crime have been very offensive on this board over the past couple of years. When I see a post stating not doing it Marshall's way will get a kid injured gets me going.

I wasn't making fun of the kid. I was making fun of low to mid 80's being a big deal. Decent high school pitchers throw at this speed. My son probably won't be a pitcher past high school. You should see him hit and run. I was recruited as an outfielder. I just happened to respond when the college coach asked if there was a lefty who come out of the pen and throw strikes. As a freshman it got me on the field. As a soph through senior it had me playing DH on my relief days when I would have been on the field had I kept my mouth shut.

[Postblank]

Would that be Nowhere State? I found a Marshall pitcher at an obscure Massachusetts D3. After a 7+ era his first year he was gone.Reid was a highly unskilled pitcher, his lack of success surprised no one.

Having seen a couple Becker games earlier this Spring, I'd have to agree that their program is a joke.

[epic]

My apologies. You're a victim by association. Your partners in crime have been very offensive on this board over the past couple of years. When I see a post stating not doing it Marshall's way will get a kid injured gets me going.

I wasn't making fun of the kid. I was making fun of low to mid 80's being a big deal. Decent high school pitchers throw at this speed.

Again, I did not say it was a big deal to hit low to mid 80s. I was pointing out the increase. He expects the gun will show a bit more of an increase this fall.

His older brother pitched D1, lefty, was recruited as a pitcher, and never hit over low 80s until he worked with Doc.

"My partners in crime"-really? Of what "crime" have you convicted me?

[Jake Patterson]

EDIT: Also this cult thing is reaching a whole new strata of annoying. If I was as curt about how some of you choose to live your lives, I can't imagine receiving very even-headed responses.
Post, it's only as annoying to you as you allow it to be. Doc has done much to get us to think different about arm injury.

[kylebee]

Who's that? Pat?
He had a pre-existing injury. On the front of his shoulder. Oh let me guess that's exactly where it still hurt after his INCORRECT TRAINING. Pat dropped his elbow and pulled across. Shown when he constantly slapped himself in the back (still made fun of by the guys today). Therefore putting stress on his anterior deltoid. Anything else?

I have video of people with all similar mechanics that created shoulder lag. That being said, you're hopeless, so I'll leave you to your closed mind.

[Baseball gLove]

The leg kick was to and look traditional and the stride is exactly what we do now. Approved by Doc Taught by doc. Ridiculous pitter patters once gain.

Jeff had torn his UCL 3 times before he pitched with DOC. Trained 8 years with 3 separate calcium deposits in his elbow was in spring training with the Brewers hurt his back due to the Med ball drills they had him doing. Was out for a month, came back got into throwing again and jumped into full intensity straight off the bat without easing into it had some discomfort in his arm. The brewers suggested a MRI, and they found the OLD 3 calcium deposits and doc told Jeff to get the surgery because no major league team will sign someone who has a destroyed UCL even though we can tech pitch without one.

Wrong. He turned his hips to closed then opened. This is one of the keys to what I believe is lacking in Marshall's mechanics. If your statement was true, why don't you guys just use this "acquiescence stride" outright, instead of pretending to look traditional?

Brewers didn't hurt his back. Jeff did. How long has doc been working with Jeff? Since 1993? Pitter patter is what you guys do. Deeds speak louder than words. If I were you guys I wouldn't wax poetic, if I don't have anything to wax.

[Hargrave]

BTW, you couldn’t do one day of the training I do.
Name some training that you or your son does that has made a significant increase in velocity and can be repeated over and over again to get that velocity high and high over his career until he reaches his Maximum velocity. Name something that you do that causes your body to make physiological adjustment and actually make you a stronger pitcher? Explain why you do long toss but you don’t incorporate that throwing motion into your pitching motion? (If you did it would be what doc teaches) Just name one thing that you do that actually trainings a pitcher in your eyes.

MM detractors don't understand this very well stated concept.

What we do is train. What traditional pitchers do is practice.

We train the muscles and the motor-unit sequencing - in many ways that compliment each other - to build skill and force physiological adaptations to throwing. That is the defintion of training. MM's intervals of time and resistance build the skill and the strength.

Practice is just rehearsing movement. A bullpen or mirror work is just rehearsing the same thing over and over. The flyout, the bounce, the ball behind the acromial line, the hard landing and push, you are just tearing yourself up every time you throw a bullpen. That's not building, that is destroying.

People think you can do some ab work, run some poles and do general fitness weight lifting and you have training. False.

Training is specific. Specific means identical. How can you get stronger at throwing if you get sore with a regulation baseball? Traditional throwers could not even throw a 2-pound iron ball five times before getting injured.

Baseball is so hidebound and stupid. That's fine, it is an advantage for the rest of us. I mean seriously, in track and field, swimming, the main Olympic sports, this stuff is well known.

I don't agree with state socialism, but the Eastern Bloc countries figured out interval training and sports-specific training decades ago because they saw winning gold medals as part of the people's revolution or something.

They put smart people in charge of their athletes. MLB has a bunch of superstitious old men and suck-ups who yes-man the owners. Varsity coaches and PE teachers in this country undergo no training in the physiology of exercise, the design of training programs, etc.

[Chris O'Leary]

The Marshall pitchers have so far struggled with command/control of the pitches. This is most likely because Dr. Marshall trains them to be throwers and to perfect the release of their pitches, rather than actually training them to be pitchers. To be quite fair, however, Dr. Marshall addresses this in his Q&A files and says that he is not training them to be game-ready, and that is something they need to do on their own.

With my experiences in training my HS kids using Coach45's methods (RPM Pitching) - which are a subset of Marshalls to some degree - command/control go out the window very fast, and without specific bullpens (throwing to hitters, catcher-specific drills, simulated games, etc) I can't imagine it would come back very fast.

I agree with this.

His guys learn how to throw and (to a degree) to control their pitches, but they don't work on commanding their pitches.

That is a big problem, IMO.

[Chris O'Leary]

Exactly! Physical limitations. With the traditional Pitching motion you only throw 80% to 90% of your genetic maximum (Physics proves that), but with Marshall's program you get closer to 100% of your maximum.

I think this is a dubious claim.

[beemax]

MM detractors don't understand this very well stated concept.

What we do is train. What traditional pitchers do is practice.


Shouldn't there be a combination of both, along with pitching in games? IMO pitchers should train, practice, and pitch. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that Doc's guys spend the majority of their time training and not actually pitching.

I can understand the point you were trying to make here. Training is great and I have no doubt that Doc's guys are in good shape. However, shouldn't there be more emphasis put on pitching in game situations, by not only practicing but playing?

[Hargrave]

Shouldn't there be a combination of both, along with pitching in games?

Yes.

The only answer to this is yes.

Marshall's training at the one-on-one thing he does in Florida is not one-stop shopping. You get skilled and fit and then you have to compete yourself.

Listen, fellas, he has no money. He has no lab. He has no research staff. He is 65 years old or something. He retired before they were paid millions.

He figures the best he can do is get them fit and teach them how to compete. The rest is up to them.

Olympic track teams have the millions and all the rest. And the elite athletes. And with that comes the luxury of both supervised training and supervised competing in one long cycle.

We are dealing with the MLB bias that only young players can make it. Stats show that unless you make some decent mark in MLB by age 23, you probably won't amount to much.

That's dumb. It is just superstition and historical bias. Olympic programs will invest in years of training of 20-year-old prospects before they are set loose to compete. Men begin losing muscle mass at age 30, on average, without resistance training. That is true.

But it can be overcome. Jeff, who I know many discount, is 36 and a stud. There is no reason that this system, this bias and superstition, should exist. We can spend years training pitchers and set them loose in weak competition to get their feet under them.

Then better competition. Then better. The best will emerge and rest will fall away. As they do now. No one is saying fire all the talented traditional pitchers and replace them with MM pitchers.

However, the base of training for the MM crew will be there. The skill will develop. After they are fit, they need catchers and hitters and games. Heck, someone will figure it out and take advantage.

That being said, I believe that another great undervalued asset here is for position players. Your sore-armed catcher or third basemen can resurrect a career with just one off-season of hard work. No more sore arm. No surgery required. Millions saved.

Also, he has a great batting technique. It works. His college teams set records in D2. All the great hitters use some aspect of it through trial and error on their own. Any hitter who has hit a wall should look into it.

One short debunk paragraph: there is no cult. How many times do we have to write that there was no brainwashing? Us who have done it have done it because we faced retirement until our arm pain went away. That is the basis of the support for the MM method. It worked for us. He gave the joy of the game back to us.

Let's talk about pain. Detractors, have you ever felt the searing elbow pain as you warmed up your arm for a game? It goes away for a bit when you get warm. But then it comes back. That is your TJ ligament bursting. Pronating releases relieves it immediately.

Have you ever felt like the small muscle in your back below your collar bone is shearing? That is a flaw in the throwing. A torn rotator cuff is coming to breakfast soon.

Have you ever felt the terrible sensation that your deltoid is locked, that the hard throw you just made is like childbirth pain? Make a hard throw and your arm throbs from collarbone to fingers? If you had to make a play on the next pitch, you couldn't?

You want to put it in a sling and cry to your mama. That is from capsular shrinkage after a surgeon burned your collagen and cartilage with a heat probe to shrink the tissue and cure "laxity."

The MM training and locking your arm to your rotation and using your tricep for power cures it.

Many of us are back in game, throwing as well as we did pre-injury, because of this. Please, criticize from the blackboard all you want. But stop the scurrilous attacks. We are ballplayers too, and this got us back out there.

[Gmaddux3132]

My son just turned fifteen. He's a 14U eligible playing 16U. He just grew seven inches in the past year to 5'11". He's expected to be 6'2". At 5'11", 145 he's threw 80mph as a freshman. He does long toss to strengthen his arm. I'll guess he'll at least get to the 85-87 I threw at. He has never had a sore arm. I don't allow him to pitch excessively. His pitching from ages 9-11 was very limited.

I don't have to explain anything to you about how and why what he does works. I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1. You completely lack any credibility with me. In my eyes you're a Hare Krishna with a baseball glove.

I don't have to explain anything to you about how and why what he does works. I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1. You completely lack any credibility with me. In my eyes you're a Hare Krishna with a baseball glove.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see how you listing your son’s qualities on your fingers prove anything. You’re guessing he'll throw 87mph on what bases? The long toss motion is MIKE MARSHALLS PITCHING MOTION. As for the comment about D1 giving you credibility I don’t see how that has any relevance what so ever. I could have played at University of Tennessee, Florida Southern, University of Florida and University of Illinois, but chose to try and get drafted at a JC. What about Joe he played pro ball and you can’t rap your head around anything he tried to say to you. Good luck with your son I wish him the best of luck.

[Gmaddux3132]

I have video of people with all similar mechanics that created shoulder lag. That being said, you're hopeless, so I'll leave you to your closed mind.


Hopeless because I don’t believe what your saying?! No you know how I feel about the rubbish that comes out off everyone’s mouth that clams Mike Marshall doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Leave me to a closed mind? How you have not say anything or provided any information on FACTS to support your clam. Not once it’s all hear say and your opinion.

Submit FACT kyle

O BTW didnt you go to neeman and try his workout but threwup and never returned? How did that workout for you? Correct me if I am wrong.

[Postblank]

Post, it's only as annoying to you as you allow it to be. Doc has done much to get us to think different about arm injury.I was just under the impression that needless personal attacks were frowned upon here, especially going both ways. But that's fine, I suppose I'll stop holding my tongue too and we'll see what's left up, won't we?

[Gmaddux3132]

Wrong. He turned his hips to closed then opened. This is one of the keys to what I believe is lacking in Marshall's mechanics. If your statement was true, why don't you guys just use this "acquiescence stride" outright, instead of pretending to look traditional?

Brewers didn't hurt his back. Jeff did. How long has doc been working with Jeff? Since 1993? Pitter patter is what you guys do. Deeds speak louder than words. If I were you guys I wouldn't wax poetic, if I don't have anything to wax.

Well I asked Jeff how he hurt his back and he told me these 6 months ago. And when Jeff was in the minors they insisted he had a LEG KICK. DOC has changed since then and wants us doing exactly what is Necessary to perform at our best. Why would I be arguing with you if my clams to throw hard then I did before, throwing everyday without pain, and throwing with 100% intensity every single pitch if it were not true? You ever think of that? What do you think all the clams I make about myself and all the clams everyone that does this program are all flaws and we just like to make stuff up to make you mad? Were would the logic be in all of that. And why don’t you try this program yourself? I don’t think anyone that clams this motion is not superior over the tradition motion has ever tried it.

KyleBee said your son pendulum swings and pronates is this true?
If so that’s exactly what we do. By adding a leg kick you are putting stress on your pitching arm knee and hip. By reverse rotating, you cause pitching arm flyout and drag the arm and put stress on your anterior deltoid and when you stride out you come to a complete stop therefore your legs do nothing! your hips do not rotate because you striding closed and if you stride open your hips are already open at release therefore they aren’t contributing to anything either. By bending over you put stress on your lower back and by pulling your arm across you risk injuring your posterior deltoid. All Proven by High speed film. Maybe you should take a look at it sometime. Try 500ps maybe.

[beemax]

No, but if you look at Greg Maddux on every pitch what does he do? Pronate and he has a pendulum swing. Exactly what doc teaches

I can understand what you mean by pendulum swing, but pronate every pitch? Are you certain of that?

[Gmaddux3132]

I think this is a dubious claim.

This clam is correct. Why have I gained 6mph on my fastball since I have started MM's training? When I was trained by Major and minor league pitching coaches all my life that said I have PERFECT mechanics. I have don’t Tom houses, Brett strom,wolfferd, and dick mills training program in hopes of increasing velocity and none of them worked the only one that worked is DR Mike Marshall’s. So why did I gain Velocity during Mike Marshall’s Program and no one else’s?

[Gmaddux3132]

I can understand what you mean by pendulum swing, but pronate every pitch? Are you certain of that?


Not on every pitch I ment Fastballs and Changeups sorry. Which i believe maddux doesnt throw tomany of them.

And in this picture what am i looking for? Pronation? um tobad you have 2 pictures and it stops right before he is about to pronate. try looking at little harder next time

[XV84]

I thought Marshall pitchers pronate through release?

[Gmaddux3132]

I can understand what you mean by pendulum swing, but pronate every pitch? Are you certain of that?

you know what? The more i look at this he is pronating. His thumb is down and if you disagree pictures dont lie sorry.

[Gmaddux3132]

I thought Marshall pitchers pronate through release?

We pronate threw release

[beemax]

Not on every pitch I ment Fastballs and Changeups sorry. Which i believe maddux doesnt throw tomany of them.

And in this picture what am i looking for? Pronation? um tobad you have 2 pictures and it stops right before he is about to pronate. try looking at little harder next time

Doesn't Doc teach pronation through release, not after? These photos show Maddux after release and he has yet to pronate.

In many of my conversations with Doc's students they have said that high speed video is the only way to know for sure on someone's motion. Do you have high-speed of Maddux and do you believe that you have to see high-speed film before you make claims about a pitcher's mechanics?

[fastbal95]

Is Maddux a Marshall train pitcher???

It appears to me that Maddux is actually pronating the release of this pitch. However with only two pictures to go on, its not much.

It would be much better if we had any kind of video on Maddux, especially if it was some sort of high speed video.

[beemax]

Not on every pitch I ment Fastballs and Changeups sorry. Which i believe maddux doesnt throw tomany of them.

Maddux doesn't throw many fastballs or change-ups? That's almost ALL that he throws.

And in this picture what am i looking for? Pronation? um tobad you have 2 pictures and it stops right before he is about to pronate. try looking at little harder next time

Ok, I looked harder.

I never said Maddux didn't pronate. However, you stated that he pendulum swings and pronates exactly the way Doc teaches. This is false because Doc teaches pronation through release, not merely pronation after release.

A couple more:

[fastbal95]

Brett,

How can you say Maddux doesnt pronate through release, only after with only still pitchers to go on???

You cant say pronation isnt happening because of two still pictures. Get some video and then we can get down to the bottom of it.

[beemax]

Brett,

How can you say Maddux doesnt pronate through release, only after with only still pitchers to go on???

You cant say pronation isnt happening because of two still pictures. Get some video and then we can get down to the bottom of it.

I agree that video would be better, no doubt, but gmaddux3132 made these claims without looking at it more closely IMO.

Here is a still of Sparks at and after release from high speed video. The clarity is not as good as Maddux's pictures, but IMO you can see a defined pronation after release caused by his pronation through release. I know Sparks pronates through release because I see it on the video.

The pictures of Maddux are close to and well after release, depending on what you would consider, but I think you can agree that Sparks pronation is a lot more defined than Maddux after release.

[fastbal95]

Jeff definately pronates harder than Maddux. I would say he does this because Jeff throws around 30lb wrist weights and a 15lb lead ball like myself. That overload training would make Jeff's pronator teres muscle much much much stronger than Madduxs which would apply more force which would mean a more forceful pronation. To my knowledge, Maddux does not train with wrist weights or iron/lead balls.

[Baseball gLove]

Well I asked Jeff how he hurt his back and he told me these 6 months ago. And when Jeff was in the minors they insisted he had a LEG KICK. DOC has changed since then and wants us doing exactly what is Necessary to perform at our best. Why would I be arguing with you if my clams to throw hard then I did before, throwing everyday without pain, and throwing with 100% intensity every single pitch if it were not true? You ever think of that? What do you think all the clams I make about myself and all the clams everyone that does this program are all flaws and we just like to make stuff up to make you mad? Were would the logic be in all of that. And why don’t you try this program yourself? I don’t think anyone that clams this motion is not superior over the tradition motion has ever tried it.

KyleBee said your son pendulum swings and pronates is this true?
If so that’s exactly what we do. By adding a leg kick you are putting stress on your pitching arm knee and hip. By reverse rotating, you cause pitching arm flyout and drag the arm and put stress on your anterior deltoid and when you stride out you come to a complete stop therefore your legs do nothing! your hips do not rotate because you striding closed and if you stride open your hips are already open at release therefore they aren’t contributing to anything either. By bending over you put stress on your lower back and by pulling your arm across you risk injuring your posterior deltoid. All Proven by High speed film. Maybe you should take a look at it sometime. Try 500ps maybe.

He is 16 and throws in the mid to high 80's. Maybe he will be injured, maybe he won't. Maybe he'll snap an ankle sliding into 3rd base, or get hit on the elbow by a pitch. He was recently injured because he was pitching a 3 inning shutout. The 1st baseman purposely stepped and grounded on my son's hand. This split his fingernail down the middle. Thankfully, it was determined later that day that he didn't break a bone, but he was done pitching for a few days.

You think legs do nothing? All I have to say is thank you. Please continue to believe and teach this. You are helping to produce less competition for my son. Thank you.

[fastbal95]

Gotta love this guy TG Coach. He's definately a real thinker!

-"Only Sparks' career is in regression."

When did you actually pitch in the majors TG Coach??? Thought so.


-"Speaking of babble, what team is Sparks pitching for? Game, set, match. Shut up!"

What team are you pitching for right now TG Coach? Hell, what pro team did you ever play for????


-"I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1."

Much further is a stretch. Colin pitched at a junior college and did very well. By your logic, you know more than him because you played, excuse me, were on the team, at a D1 school. Well I played professional baseball. So just because of that I guess I know more than you. If Jeff Sparks were to come on here, he must know more than both of us since he actually pitched in the big leagues. Hell, you should actually believe what Mike Marshall says then because he played MLB and lasted quite a long time and actually won many awards, one of them being the Cy Young meaning he was the best pitcher in all of baseball in the National League in 1974.


-"I was making fun of low to mid 80's being a big deal."

When someone gains 10-15 mph on their fastball, NO MaTTER WHERE THEIR STARTING POINT WAS, I would say thats a big deal. Maybe we should just make fun of you because you only through 85-87 mph. Maybe I should make fun of you because you never played pro ball and only made it to the collegiate level.

[scorekeeper]

Just another example of FB95 forgetting to add the most important thing to a post, so I’ll do it for him.

Game, set, match. Shut up!

:bowdown::applaud::laugh:rofl:

[beemax]

Jeff definately pronates harder than Maddux. I would say he does this because Jeff throws around 30lb wrist weights and a 15lb lead ball like myself. That overload training would make Jeff's pronator teres muscle much much much stronger than Madduxs which would apply more force which would mean a more forceful pronation. To my knowledge, Maddux does not train with wrist weights or iron/lead balls.

Again, this debate about Maddux started with a claim that he pronates through release on all of his pitches, just like Doc teaches. I do not see any evidence of that when comparing photos during and after release. I have seen some photos of him pronating, but they are well after release.

Also, it is stated that we need high speed film to see if he does pronate through release, and I agree. That being said, comparing his photos to the stills of Sparks shows a huge difference in terms of pronation.

I do not believe Maddux trains with wrist weights or iron balls either.

[fastbal95]

Brett,

I didnt see where Colin said that Maddux pronates through release. I did see him say that he pendulum swings and pronates though. Maybe I missed something.

Anyways, I think we can both agree that we pronate much harder than any traditional pitchers because of our training. Also, most, if not all, traditional pitchers pull their arm across their body. We are taught however to drive our arms, meaning on our maxline pitches drive the ball to the side of our body, or down our acromial line. I think that the pictures of Jeff shows this pretty well. So their are definate differences that hinder the comparison.

[Postblank]

He is 16 and throws in the mid to high 80's. Maybe he will be injured, maybe he won't. Maybe he'll snap an ankle sliding into 3rd base, or get hit on the elbow by a pitch. He was recently injured because he was pitching a 3 inning shutout. The 1st baseman purposely stepped and grounded on my son's hand. This split his fingernail down the middle. Thankfully, it was determined later that day that he didn't break a bone, but he was done pitching for a few days.
Am I understanding that your son's teammate purposely stepped on his hand? If so, I think offering to throw him some live BP is in order to show there's no hard feelings. :baseball:

[beemax]

Brett,

I didnt see where Colin said that Maddux pronates through release. I did see him say that he pendulum swings and pronates though. Maybe I missed something.


He did not say that Maddux pronates through release, but he said that Maddux pendulum swings and pronates exactly how Doc teaches. I jumped to the conclusion that he meant pronating through release, because that is what Doc teaches, not merely pronating after release. My mistake if I misrepresented what he meant, but I took "exactly what Doc teaches" to mean just that.

[Baseball gLove]

Am I understanding that your son's teammate purposely stepped on his hand? If so, I think offering to throw him some live BP is in order to show there's no hard feelings. :baseball:

It was the 1st baseman of the opposing team. My son's teammate wouldn't be holding him at 1st base or look to injure his teammate.

[Postblank]

It was the 1st baseman of the opposing team. My son's teammate wouldn't be holding him at 1st base or look to injure his teammate.Ah, the extra needed information makes that clearer. Hopefully he got a bowtie for that, that kind of behavior isn't called for at any level.

[TG Coach]

Gotta love this guy TG Coach. He's definately a real thinker!

-"Only Sparks' career is in regression."

When did you actually pitch in the majors TG Coach??? Thought so.


-"Speaking of babble, what team is Sparks pitching for? Game, set, match. Shut up!"

What team are you pitching for right now TG Coach? Hell, what pro team did you ever play for????


-"I've gone much further than you in baseball. I've already pitched at a D1."

Much further is a stretch. Colin pitched at a junior college and did very well. By your logic, you know more than him because you played, excuse me, were on the team, at a D1 school. Well I played professional baseball. So just because of that I guess I know more than you. If Jeff Sparks were to come on here, he must know more than both of us since he actually pitched in the big leagues. Hell, you should actually believe what Mike Marshall says then because he played MLB and lasted quite a long time and actually won many awards, one of them being the Cy Young meaning he was the best pitcher in all of baseball in the National League in 1974.


-"I was making fun of low to mid 80's being a big deal."

When someone gains 10-15 mph on their fastball, NO MaTTER WHERE THEIR STARTING POINT WAS, I would say thats a big deal. Maybe we should just make fun of you because you only through 85-87 mph. Maybe I should make fun of you because you never played pro ball and only made it to the collegiate level.

OK, you hold up Sparks as the poster boy of how to pitch properly. I'll use all the pitchers in the Hall of Fame as poster boys on how to pitch properly.