Mark Teixeira to Angels for Kotchman and another player [Archive]

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tigers527

07-29-2008, 04:12 PM

Jayson Stark reports the thread title

Zito75

07-29-2008, 04:30 PM

Just read the story myself... Personally I'd rather keep Kotchman.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3510042

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 04:40 PM

Angels get:
1B Mark Teixeira

Braves get:
1B Casey Kotchman
P Stephen Marek (AA)

Under the circumstances, I like this trade quite a lot. :)

Evangelion

07-29-2008, 04:45 PM

Teixeira the better hitter, but Kotchman not bad either. They're both good defensive 1B, so neither team loses much, in any, advantage they had at 1B defensively. Good trade for both sides it seems. The Angels have the ability to sign Teixeira after the season, too.

How many years is Kotchman under the control of the Braves? Are the Brave getting a quality prospect in Marek?

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 05:00 PM

NYMets523

07-29-2008, 05:00 PM

Rennie Stennett

07-29-2008, 05:02 PM

The rich get richer

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 05:02 PM

Kotchman is under control until 2011.

He's good but not great. 15-20 HR power. He'll be going to a pitcher's park, too. Considering the position they were in, it's not bad. But considering how much they gave up for him last year, it's not good either.

Listen, those prospects are a sunk cost. There is nothing to lament about them. Besides, I'm a Rangers fan second, so I get to root for them anyway. As for Kotchman, he's a lot like Brian McCann: they don't walk or strike out often and they can hit some doubles and a few homers.

slugger33

07-29-2008, 06:28 PM

Pretty good trade for both sides.

BenHertz

07-29-2008, 06:39 PM

Stephen Marek
- Selected by the Anaheim Angels in the 40th round (1,193rd overall) in the 2004 First-Year Player Draft out of San Jacinto Community College (Houston, Texas).
- 6'2", 200 lbs.
- Bats Left. Throws Right.
- Born: September 3, 1983
- Former starter, currently relief pitcher

Lafferty Daniel

07-29-2008, 06:46 PM

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 07:18 PM

Poor Braves fans. Their organization traded away Salty, Elvis Andrus, and few other decent prospects last season to get Tex. Now they only get Kotchmann and Marek in return? Even if he is a two month rental, the Angels committed grand theft.

I don't need your fake sympathy, pal, and neither do Braves fans. As I was telling Mets523 earlier, those prospects are a sunk cost. It doesn't matter now.

That ws about as good as it was going to get; no one wants to trade a lot for Teixeira because there is a very real possibility that he'll sign a contract in the off-season worth more than $20 million a year. In 2007, when the Braves traded for him, it was known that he was going to be a free agent after the 2008 season. Therefore, his value was a lot higher.

The Angels didn't "fleece" the Braves either. The Angels got a rental player for their 2008 playoff stretch run and they may be able to sign in the off-season, and the Braves got a first baseman that is younger, produces at a similar rate to Brian McCann and is cost-controlled for about three seasons AND a Top 10 pitching prospect from the Angels. Teixeira's straight-up value was much lower this season, and the Braves got exactly what could be expected from him.

Evangelion

07-29-2008, 07:50 PM

If the Angels lose Teixeira and fail to win the WS, what can be said about this deal then? The point I'm making is the Brave traded for Teixeira last season in the middle of the playoff run and it didn't pay off. What can you do? So far, the prospects have yet, if they ever will, to produce for Texas, so I don't under the "Poor Braves fans" sentence.

redlegsfan21

07-29-2008, 07:57 PM

PureBaseballFan

07-29-2008, 08:22 PM

No, need to feel bad for Braves fans as most online have created the mentality that none of the people the team traded away will amount to anything other then Neftali. I don't agree with all of them but that is a different topic.

The Braves got a fine deal in my opinion much better then the proposed Tracy and Owings. Marek could be a good relief pitcher that would be cheap in the next year or two, and Kotchman is a good defensive 1B with some power and he is still young enough to develop a little more. For me it is a smart/good trade for both teams and with the good relationship between LAA and Boras I can see him signing an extension or signing with them after he declares for free agency.

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 08:24 PM

So far, the prospects have yet, if they ever will, to produce for Texas, so I don't under the "Poor Braves fans" sentence.

The only ones to appear in the majors so far with Texas are Saltalamacchia and Harrison

Saltalamacchia: .232/.332/.341, 9 2B, 3 HR, 24 RBI in 190 PA
Harrison: 2-1, 4 GS, 19 2/3 IP, 26 H, 16 ER, 9 BB, 2 SO, 7.32 ERA

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 08:26 PM

No, need to feel bad for Braves fans as most online have created the mentality that none of the people the team traded away will amount to anything other then Neftali.

:eek: I hope I didn't say that. I'm sure that Saltalamacchia and Harrison might do something, but my guess is that Andrus is a bit of a crapshoot and Jones already looks like a bust.

Lafferty Daniel

07-29-2008, 08:31 PM

Lafferty Daniel

07-29-2008, 08:35 PM

:eek: I hope I didn't say that. I'm sure that Saltalamacchia and Harrison might do something, but my guess is that Andrus is a bit of a crapshoot and Jones already looks like a bust.

We'll see. I think they're all too young to write off.

hudsonharden

07-29-2008, 08:47 PM

I expected the Braves to get rid of Teixeira, they needed to get something for him and they really don't have a chance to make the playoffs with the division that they're in. A good move for both sides.

PureBaseballFan

07-29-2008, 08:52 PM

:eek: I hope I didn't say that. I'm sure that Saltalamacchia and Harrison might do something, but my guess is that Andrus is a bit of a crapshoot and Jones already looks like a bust.No, Sam I was reading the MLBtraderumors.com comments on the Tex rumors and man it just devolved into a debate that the only good player the Braves gave up was Neftali and it has just stuck with me.

We get it, the Braves had to get something for Tex. Kotchman is great when it comes to getting on base and can play good D. That said, I'd be pissed if I were a Braves fan because they traded Saltalamacchia, Netfali and Andrus in order to get Tex last season.Personally I am not pissed as the deal from the standpoint of what they wanted from both Tex and Mahay they got what they expected. The team was the let down of course but with what felt like just a constant string of injuries it was hard to keep the same team on the field for long periods of time.

I liked Salty and Andrus while they were with the Braves but since both were blocked (Andrus by Yunel and Lillibridge at the time, Salty by McCann) it was hard to see a way for them to play on this team. I will be cheering on Salty and Andrus, and even cheering on Mark going to the postseason. I guess I am just not the type of fan to stress over the past anymore, as doing that causes nothing but extra unnecessary stress and anger.

NYMets523

07-29-2008, 08:52 PM

Listen, those prospects are a sunk cost.
If it helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. I wouldn't be happy if the Mets traded 4 prospects for a player only to trade him a year later for one player.

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 09:58 PM

If it helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. I wouldn't be happy if the Mets traded 4 prospects for a player only to trade him a year later for one player.

Well, that's you. And I'm not losing sleep because Saltalamacchia was blocked by McCann and was never going to be a first baseman, and Andrus was blocked by Escobar AND Lillibridge. Beau Jones is an afterthought. Harrison and Feliz are the ones I MIGHT worry about. Emphasis on might.

But hey, I'm a Rangers fan too, so I get to root for them anyway! :rofl:

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 10:03 PM

We'll see. I think they're all too young to write off.

I'm not writing them off essentially, but I do mean what I say. I view Andrus as a light-hitting, slick fielding shortstop that can steal bases at his best. Saltalamacchia should do what he has done: hit. Harrison is a pretty good pitching prospect, and Feliz's stats look REALLY, REALLY good, but as I told NYMets, I'm not losing any sleep over any of them.

SamtheBravesFan

07-29-2008, 10:05 PM

I guess I am just not the type of fan to stress over the past anymore, as doing that causes nothing but extra unnecessary stress and anger.

Bingo. :) Focus on the present and some of the future.

yamsi12

07-30-2008, 12:00 AM

it will be interesting to see if they can sign teixeira and k-rod in the off season. Both will be asking for a lot of $$$.

NYMets523

07-30-2008, 12:05 AM

They also have to think about Lackey, Guerrero, and Anderson. They all have options in 2009 but they will probably want to extend them.

Just saw these on Yahoo. Pretty cool
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjweYGEBVBN1spJhIw5pXfwRvLYF?slug=ys-teixeirareport072908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjkYbopgBKxQkH6z3k8qV0MRvLYF?slug=ys-kotchmanreport&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

yamsi12

07-30-2008, 12:54 AM

flash143817

07-30-2008, 01:01 AM

We get it, the Braves had to get something for Tex. Kotchman is great when it comes to getting on base and can play good D. That said, I'd be pissed if I were a Braves fan because they traded Saltalamacchia, Netfali and Andrus in order to get Tex last season.

Honestly, for some reason Kotchman lost his on base ability this season. In the past he used to walk a fair amount, but for some reason his BB rates are way down this year and as such his OBP is only .328 this year at the time of the trade. He's still a good glove man but I think the Angels are cutting him loose at the right time. You are never going to get a better player than Teixeira in return for Kotchman.

They also have to think about Lackey, Guerrero, and Anderson. They all have options in 2009 but they will probably want to extend them.

Just saw these on Yahoo. Pretty cool
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjweYGEBVBN1spJhIw5pXfwRvLYF?slug=ys-teixeirareport072908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjkYbopgBKxQkH6z3k8qV0MRvLYF?slug=ys-kotchmanreport&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Those are interesting scouting reports, although I think they are being a little nice to Kotchman actually. Every time he ranks below the league average he was given a C+. In my book, C is average, so even those ones where he was close below the league average, he should be getting a C- instead of a C+.

That Tex rates out as a too low B+ and Kotchman as a generous C+ tells me everything I need to know about this trade.

As far as the minor leaguer, he has good numbers, but they are in relief. Those numbers as a starter in the minors indicate potential future star, but as a reliever they just aren't as impressive. Even if he pans out he is going to be probably a set-up man at best. Guys like that are nice, but mostly expendable and replaceable.

That being said, I wish they would finally trade Nick Adenhart while he still has top prospect value. His numbers have been awful for a couple of years now but for some reason is still considered their top pitching prospect. I just don't get it.

The Angels will have all the money they need to resign Tex if/when they let K-Rod go and let Anderson's contract finally expire and free up his money. Moreno is not afraid to spend money to make his team better and re-signing Tex certainly does that.

Wade8813

07-30-2008, 09:25 AM

Well, that's you. And I'm not losing sleep because Saltalamacchia was blocked by McCann and was never going to be a first baseman, and Andrus was blocked by Escobar AND Lillibridge. (I'm not trying to pick on you, StBF). I've never understood this reasoning. I've heard it over and over again, but it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, players that will never get a chance in your organization should be traded. But that doesn't make it okay to get less than they're worth in a trade. A lopsided trade doesn't become okay just because the prospects were being blocked in your organization.

I'm not saying that was entirely the case here, since I don't know all the details. But in this (and many other trades), that's the feeling I get from reading other people's responses.

spark240

07-30-2008, 01:11 PM

Poor Braves fans. Their organization traded away Salty, Elvis Andrus, and few other decent prospects last season to get Tex. Now they only get Kotchmann and Marek in return?

This year's transaction has nothing to do with last year's.

I'm a Braves fan, and I was sorry to see Salty and Elvis and Matt Harrison go, particularly because I'd gotten to like those guys by watching them myself in the minors, not just looking at prospect lists... but that has nothing to do with Tex, this year. Whether the Braves make a great trade or a bad trade or no trade of Tex now, those guys are still equally gone.

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 01:26 PM

(I'm not trying to pick on you, StBF). I've never understood this reasoning. I've heard it over and over again, but it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, players that will never get a chance in your organization should be traded. But that doesn't make it okay to get less than they're worth in a trade. A lopsided trade doesn't become okay just because the prospects were being blocked in your organization.

I'm not saying that was entirely the case here, since I don't know all the details. But in this (and many other trades), that's the feeling I get from reading other people's responses.

The fact is that Teixeira's value was very high in 2007 because he would be a free agent after the 2008 season. Teixeira's value as a trade piece (assuming the Braves could not sign him to an extension, and they didn't) was not as high in 2008 because of that impending free agency where he could command something in the realm of $20-23 million a season. Because the circumstances changed, it was basically a gamble that the Braves were taking that somehow in 2007 or 2008 that with Teixeira, they would make the playoffs. That did not and will not (as far as we know) happen.

That being said, I can accept what the Braves got back for Teixeira even though they gave so much up. In my view, Saltalamacchia and Andrus were going to be trade pieces anyway, because of the very fact that they were blocked in the organization. I'm not giving up that point. The Braves had an All-Star catcher in Brian McCann whom they weren't going to move to first base permanently (for that matter, they weren't going to move Saltalamacchia to first base either) and they had Yunel Escobar who was making a very good first impression on them; so good, in fact, that it led them to trade Renteria for Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez. Now, they can even choose to trade either shortstop Escobar or Brent Lillibridge for another piece that they need. This is why I take that argument for them.

Harrison, Jones and Feliz weren't necessarily "blocked", of course. The Braves felt that they could afford to trade them because they believe in other arms in their organization (Reyes, Morton, Rohrbough and several others).

It's possible the Braves could have gone another route; they could have just held on to the players and taken their lumps or traded for someone else but that's just in the realm of speculation now.

Besides, who says that it's a lopsided trade right now? That's for the players to decide, based on how well they perform in the major leagues.

Lafferty Daniel

07-30-2008, 01:58 PM

This year's transaction has nothing to do with last year's.

I'm a Braves fan, and I was sorry to see Salty and Elvis and Matt Harrison go, particularly because I'd gotten to like those guys by watching them myself in the minors, not just looking at prospect lists... but that has nothing to do with Tex, this year. Whether the Braves make a great trade or a bad trade or no trade of Tex now, those guys are still equally gone.

They essentially traded away Salty, Andrus, Feliz, and Harrison for Kotchman and Marek.

Lafferty Daniel

07-30-2008, 02:01 PM

Salty will likely end up at 1B, so this notion that he was blocked by McCann is rather shortsighted.

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 02:06 PM

Salty will likely end up at 1B, so this notion that he was blocked by McCann is rather shortsighted.

But Saltalamacchia's value is being a catcher. There aren't that many catchers who can be power hitters. Moving him to first base would mean that would go to waste; he'd just be "another guy", like Casey Kotchman. Texas isn't going to move him to first base. They're probably going to trade Laird so he can catch.

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 02:08 PM

They essentially traded away Salty, Andrus, Feliz, and Harrison for Kotchman and Marek.

Again, that is what circumstances dictate. This just doesn't happen in a vaccum, as this statment seems to imply. The Braves knew this would happen, and yet they did it anyway, trying to get a piece for a playoff run. As it happend, they didn't get into the playoffs at all because so many other things happened (namely, injuries. Lots and LOTS of injuries).

Lafferty Daniel

07-30-2008, 02:12 PM

But Saltalamacchia's value is being a catcher. There aren't that many catchers who can be power hitters. Moving him to first base would mean that would go to waste; he'd just be "another guy", like Casey Kotchman. Texas isn't going to move him to first base. They're probably going to trade Laird so he can catch.

I could see Teagarden catching full time in Texas. He's really good defensively as long as he can stay healthy.

If he can live up to his 25-30 HR a year potential, Salty would be much more valuable than Kotchman, or any other non-power hitting 1B. I know what you're saying though, it was like last year when there were rumors that Mauer would move from catcher, and thus, lose a lot of value.

Lafferty Daniel

07-30-2008, 02:14 PM

Again, that is what circumstances dictate. This just doesn't happen in a vaccum, as this statment seems to imply. The Braves knew this would happen, and yet they did it anyway, trying to get a piece for a playoff run. As it happend, they didn't get into the playoffs at all because so many other things happened (namely, injuries. Lots and LOTS of injuries).

I know, hindsight is 20/20. I applaud the Braves for trying to win last year, but as a small market Twins fan, I hate to see smart organizations (like the Braves) mortgage the future. Again, I'm probably more high on Salty and Andrus than most.

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 02:18 PM

I could see Teagarden catching full time in Texas. He's really good defensively as long as he can stay healthy.

If he can live up to his 25-30 HR a year potential, Salty would be much more valuable than Kotchman, or any other non-power hitting 1B. I know what you're saying though, it was like last year when there were rumors that Mauer would move from catcher, and thus, lose a lot of value.

Just because Saltalamacchia has that "potential" doesn't mean he's going to do it. That doesn't mean that he'll be a bust, of course, but it's all speculation. It's one of those "wait and see" things.

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 02:21 PM

I know, hindsight is 20/20. I applaud the Braves for trying to win last year, but as a small market Twins fan, I hate to see smart organizations (like the Braves) mortgage the future. Again, I'm probably more high on Salty and Andrus than most.

I don't understand why you'd be that high on Andrus anyway. He's a light hitter who can steal some bases and is good on defense right now. If he doesn't get any stronger or something like that, that's pretty much the ceiling.

I don't really understand this "mortgaging the future" business anyway. Part of the existence of a farm system is to have trade pieces for other players. There are no gaurantees. Those who are kept are expected to produce for the team, or just kept as filler. Some produce, some don't.

Lafferty Daniel

07-30-2008, 02:36 PM

I like Andrus because he's hitting .298 AVG / .356 with 33 SB in 71 games as a 19 year old in AA. Maybe he'll never hit for power (although they said the same thing about Hanley), but I can live with that because of the great D and speed at a scarce position (SS.)

Wade8813

07-30-2008, 02:42 PM

That being said, I can accept what the Braves got back for Teixeira even though they gave so much up. In my view, Saltalamacchia and Andrus were going to be trade pieces anyway, because of the very fact that they were blocked in the organization. I'm not giving up that point. The Braves had an All-Star catcher in Brian McCann whom they weren't going to move to first base permanently (for that matter, they weren't going to move Saltalamacchia to first base either) and they had Yunel Escobar who was making a very good first impression on them; so good, in fact, that it led them to trade Renteria for Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez. Now, they can even choose to trade either shortstop Escobar or Brent Lillibridge for another piece that they need. This is why I take that argument for them.
I'm not saying that trading for Tex, or trading him away again, were bad moves. I don't really know.

But so often, touted prospects are traded, and people say it's okay, because they were blocked in their original organization. My point was that yes, they should often be traded, but you should still get full value for them. Instead of "they were blocked, so it's okay to get less for them".

SamtheBravesFan

07-30-2008, 05:29 PM

I'm not saying that trading for Tex, or trading him away again, were bad moves. I don't really know.

But so often, touted prospects are traded, and people say it's okay, because they were blocked in their original organization. My point was that yes, they should often be traded, but you should still get full value for them. Instead of "they were blocked, so it's okay to get less for them".

But what is "full value" really? How do you judge a worth of a person's potential, especially if they haven't realized it, and may never realize it? It's all based on feelings and speculation, so it could be different for each person.