H-Factor by positions by era

[henrich]

1B by Era

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Era 1
Cap Anson 12,823
Roger Connor 10,438
Tommy Tucker 6501
Charlie Comiskey 6330
Patsy Tebeau 4717

Era 2
Dan Brouthers 10,736
Jake Beckley 10,273
Stuffy McInnis 9494
Harry Davis 8912
Jake Daubert 8509
Ed Konetchy 7637
Hal Chase 7568
Frank Chance 7255
Fred Merkle 7172
Jack Doyle 6669
Freddy Tenney 6518
Dan McGann 6428
Dick Hoblitzell 6308
Fred Luderus 5987
Candy LaChance 5657
Chick Gandill 5002
Frank Isbell 4893
Kitty Bransfield 4833
George Stovall 4392

Era 3
Lou Gehrig 20,504
Jimmy Foxx 16,790
Johnny Mize 12,524
Hank Greenberg 11,352
George Sisler 10,845
Bill Terry 9901
Rudy York 9128
George Kelly 8650
Joe Judge 8285
Frank McCormick 8219
George Burns 8109
Wally Pipp 8031
Dolph Camiilli 7973
Phil Cavaretta 7857
Joe Kuhel 7807
Jack Foumier 7707
Charlie Grimm 7569
Hal Trosky 6977
George McQuinn 6304
Lu Blue 6003
Gus Suhr 5454
Earl Sheely 4774
Elbie Fletcher 4700
Walter Holke 4066

Era 4
Gil Hodges 10,839
Mickey Vernon 9445
Joe Adcock 7805
Ted Kluszewski 7737
Roy Sievers 7534
Earl Torgeson 6496
Vic Power 6300
Eddie Robinson 6131
Whitey Lockman 6017
Pete Runnels 5789
Eddie Waitkus 4283

Era 5
Orlando Cepeda 11,742
Ernie Banks 11,717
Harmon Killebrew 11,649
Willie McCovey 10,739
Bill Skowron 9053
Dick Allen 9030
Norm Cash 8601
George Scott 8448
Ron Fairly 8021
Bill White 7776
Deron Johnson 7675
Joe Pepitone 6368
Wes Parker 5473
Donn Clendenon 5452
Ed Kranepool 5267
Don Mincher 5203
Norm Siebern 4901
Denny Cater 4222

Era 6
Eddie Murray 13,756
Rafael Palmeiro 12,333
Tony Perez 11,940
Jeff Bagwell 11,606
Steve Garvey 11,605
Fred McGriff 10,948
Rod Carew 10,930
Mark McGwire 10,477
Keith Hernandez 10,427
Andres Galarraga 10,167
Tino Martinez 10,060
John Olerud 9655
Don Mattingly 9516
Will Clark 9255
Bill Buckner 9046
Mark Grace 8985
Cecil Cooper 8750
Lee May 8512
Pedro Guerrero 8413
Chris Chambliss 8033
Kent Hrbek 7732
Mo Vaughn 7474
Wally Joyner 7407
Cecil Fielder 7283
Bob Watson 6850
Dan Driessen 6799
Eric Karros 6655
JT Snow 6592
John Mayberry 6300
Andre Thornton 5764
Greg Jefferies 5700
Willie Montanez 5534
Mike Hargrove 5249
Jim Spencer 5149
Jason Thompson 5090
David Segui 5064
Pete O'Brien 4943
Bruce Bochte 4834
Alvin Davis 4647
Willie Upshaw 4433

Active players
Frank Thomas 12,936
Jim Thome 9892
Jason Giambi 9232
Albert Pujols 9200
Carlos Delgado 9054
Todd Helton 8771
Ryan Klesko 7904
David Ortiz 7678
Jeff Conine 6721
Derek Lee 6537
Paul Konerko 6485
Richie Sexson 5825
Mike Sweeney 5598
Sean Casey 5515
Tony Clark 5100
Scott Hatteberg 4550

This list includes anyone with 4000 at bats (no omissions were intended).

[henrich]

2B by H-Factor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2B sorted by Era then H-Factor

Era 1
Bid McPhee 8121
Fred Pfeffer 6840

Era 2
Eddie Collins 16075
Nap Lajoie 13,214
Larry Doyle 8265
Johnny Evers 7971
Del Pratt 6919
Bobby Lowe 6799
Cupid Childs 6327
Jimmy Williams 5976
Tom Daley 5963
Dots Miller 5938
Kid Gleason 5894
Buck Herzog 5798
Claude Ritchey 5714
George Cutshaw 5683
Joe Quinn 5527
Billy Hallman 5441
Hobe Ferris 5090
Miller Huggins 4901
Frank LaPorte 4522
Jim Delahanty 4519
Otto Knabe 3719

Era 3
Rogers Hornsby 15,980
Frankie Frisch 13,982
Charlie Gehringer 11,949
Tony Lazzeri 10,753
Joe Gordon 10,265
Billy Herman 8425
Bobby Doerr 8115
Buddy Myer 7453
Marty McManus 6828
George Grantham 6457
Lonny Frey 6403
Tony Cuccinello 5673
Max Bishop 5638
Hughie Critz 5630
Bucky Harris 5570
Sparky Adams 5402
Bill Wambsganss 4909
Frankie Gustine 4142

Era 4
Jackie Robinson 9253
Jim Gilliam 9189
Red Schoendienst 8664
Nellie Fox 8602
Gil McDougald 7554
Billy Goodman 5690
Bobby Avila 5234
Jerry Priddy 5051
Eddie Stanky 4959
Frank Bolling 4692
Don Blasingame 4605
Johnny Temple 4593
Danny O'Connell 4122
Cass Michaels 4063
Pete Suder 3987

Era 5
Bobby Richardson 8220
Bill Mazeroski 7827
Dave Johnson 6579
Tony Taylor 6504
Julian Javier 6347
Dick McAuliffe 6297
Dick Green 5560
Jerry Lumpe 5463
Cookie Rojas 5110
Felix Millian 5102
Glenn Beckert 4546
Tito Fuentes 4497
Tommy Helms 4428
Ron Hunt 4360
Jerry Adair 4187
Sandy Alomar Sr. 4143
Horace Clarke 3930

Era 6
Joe Morgan 13,429
Roberto Alomar 12,264
Ryne Sandberg 10,195
Chuck Knoblauch 9082
Lou Whitaker 8691
Willie Randolph 8545
Frank White 8210
Davey Lopes 8167
Bobby Grich 8100
Steve Sax 7645
Bret Boone 7595
Tony Phillips 7369
Phil Garner 7027
Eric Young 6676
Manny Trillo 6490
Juan Samuel 6429
Delino Deshields 6256
Mariano Duncan 6084
Jorge Orta 6069
Mark McLemore 6005
Carlos Baerga 5867
Tommy Herr 5833
Dave Cash 5482
Rennie Stennett 5388
Bill Doran 5339
Jim Gantner 5226
Johnny Ray 4855
Bip Roberts 4854
Robby Thompson 4837
Harold Reynolds 4655
Glenn Hubbard 4650
Derrel Thomas 4604
Fernando Vina 4604
Randy Velarde 4367
Ron Oester 4267
Mickey Morandini 4246
Mike Lansing 4132
Jerry Remy 4100
Jody Reed 4043

Era 7
Craig Biggio 11,199
Jeff Kent 10,583
Ray Durham 7213
Alfonso Soriano 6775
Luis Castillo 6303
Mark Grudzielanek 6040
Mark Loretta 5178
Jose Vidro 5091
Todd Walker 4884
Damian Easley 4845
Craig Counsell 4528

[henrich]

Eckersley 16,801
Fingers 14,114
Smith 12,291
Rivera 12,258
Hoffman 10,975
Franco 10,645
Gossage 10,552
Sutter 10,311
Myers 9889
10. Reardon 9312
Lyle 8853
Wilhelm 8775
Quisenberry 8709
Mesa 8699
15. Wetteland 8274
Tom Henke 7806
Johnny Murphy 7703
Rick Aguilera 7592
Billy Wagner 7584
20.Roberto Hernandez 7484
Robb Nen 7343
Steve Bedrosian 7201
Tug McGraw 7199
Doug Jones 7084
25. Armando Benitez 7040
Troy Percival 7020
Dave Righetti 6902
Roy Face 6732
Mike Marshall 6665
30.Rod Beck 6654

[henrich]

Era 1
Monte Ward 7711
Ed McKean 7683
Jack Glasscock 6997
Jack Rowe 4911

Era 2
Honus Wagner 16,015
George Davis 10,073
Bill Dahlen 9794Herman Long 8013
Joe Tinker 7727
Bobby Wallace 7217
Tommy Corcoran 7096
Roger Peckinpaugh 6863
Hughie Jennings 6750
Donie Bush 6515
Jack Barry 6417
Art Fletcher 5865
Freddy Parent 5292
Monte Cross 5226
Buck Weaver 5222
Bones Ely 4698
Ivy Olsen 4605
Mickey Doolan 4480
Kid Elberfeld 4322
Al Bridwell 3795
George McBride 3642

Era 3
Frankie Crosetti 9708
Joe Cronin 9499
Luke Appling 8664
Rabbit Maranville 8433
Joe Sewell 8191
Arky Vaughan 8100
Travis Jackson 8094
Dave Bancroft 7373
Lou Boudreau 7256
Marty Marion 6798
Everett Scott 6754
Dick Bartell 6494
Glenn Wright 4791
Eric McNair 5767
Leo Durocher 5662
Billy Jurges 5550
Cecil Travis 5541
Billy Rogell 5530
Red Kress 5441
Woody English 5332
Mark Koenig 4870
Eddie Miller 4433
Wally Gerber 4024
Hod Ford 3941
Rabbit Warstler 3123

Era 4
Phil Rizzuto 10,799
Pee Wee Reese 9958
Vern Stephens 8411
Al Dark 7634
Johnny Pesky 5521
Granny Hamner 5321
Johnny Logan 5291
Roy McMillan 5105
Eddie Joost 4880
Chico Carrasquel 4019

Era 5
Luis Aparicio 10,346
Maury Wills 9629
Bert Campaneris 9572
Dick Groat 7551
Tony Kubek 6272
Jim Fregosi 6021
Rico Petrocelli 5804
Leo Cardenas 5687
Zollo Versalles 5415
Don Kessinger 5365
Woody Held 4821
Denis Menke 4724
Bud Harrelson 4420
Eddie Brinkman 4193
Ron Hansen 3711

Era 6
Cal Ripken Jr. 12,276
Robin Yount 11,164
Ozzie Smith 9874
Barry Larkin 9450
Dave Concepcion 9203
Tony Fernandez 8863
Alan Trammell 8847
Larry Bowa 7256
Bill Russell 6926
Mark Belanger 6739
Garry Templeton 6555
Alfredo Griffin 6534
Tony Womack 6204
Shawon Dunston 6094
Greg Gagne 5963
Jeff Blauser 5865
Chris Speier 5809
Ozzie Guillen 5732
Freddie Patek 5640
Walt Weiss 5571
Jose Vizcaino 5546
Roy Smalley 5488
Jose Offerman 5392
Mike Bordick 5248
Frank Taveras 5209
Bucky Dent 5025
Rick Burleson 4945
Jose Hernandez 4906
Tim Foli 4884
Wilfredo Cordero 4510
Scott Fletcher 4504
Rafael Ramirez 4440
Spike Owen 4370
Dickie Thon 4344
Craig Reynolds 3986
Ivan DeJesus 3964
Rey Sanchez 3945
Dick Schofield 3586
Roger Metzger 3295

Era 7
Alex Rodriguez 13,080
Derek Jeter 11,826
Omar Vizquel 9663
Julio Franco 9210
Edgar Renteria 7905
Miguel Tejada 7670
Nomar Garciaparra 7115
Royce Clayton 6681
Orlando Cabrera 5852
Jose Valentin 5718
Rich Aurillia 5519
Rafael Furcal 5495
Jimmy Rollins 5397
Julio Lugo 5139
David Eckstein 4947
Michael Young 4861
Neifi Perez 4793
Chris Gomez 4443
Alex S. Gonzalez 3908

[henrich]

Era 1
Deacon White 6605
Billy Nash 6408
Denny Lyons 6273
Jerry Denny 5223
Ned Williamson 5100
Ezra Sutton 4938

Era 2
Frank Baker 9927
Lave Cross 8890
Larry Gardner 8255
Heinie Groh 8060
Jimmy Collins 7859
Heinie Zimmerman 7856
Arlie Latham 7375
Harry Steinfeldt 7078
Art Devlin 5551
Hans Lobert 5509
Bobby Byrne 5273
Bill Bradley 5133
Terry Turner 4969
Wid Conroy 4782
Eddie Foster 4577
Jimmy Austin 4259
Mike Mowrey 4153
Doc Casey 3830

Era 3
Stan Hack 8460
Jimmy Dykes 8222
Red Rolfe 7760
Pinky Higgins 7482
Fred Lindstrom 6802
Joe Dugan 6722
Ken Keltner 6283
Bill Werber 6132
Harlond Clift 6093
Pinky Whitney 5748
Milt Stock 5633
Willie Kamm 5597
Jimmy Johnston 5367
Buddy Lewis 5366
Andy High 5280
Joe Stripp 4304

Era 4
Eddie Matthews 11,514
Bob Eliot 8515
George Kell 6925
Eddie Yost 6009
Willie Jones 5828
Ray Boone 5825
Don Hoak 4338
Bobby Adams 3945

Era 5
Brooks Robinson 13,012
Ken Boyer 9758
Ron Santo 9198
Clete Boyer 6718
Frank Malzone 5485
Bob Bailey 5376
Doug Rader 5275
Ken McMullen 5149
Jim Davenport 4288
Bob Aspromonte 3942

Era 6
Mike Schmidt 15,114
George Brett 13,028
Wade Boggs 10,725
Graig Nettles 10,208
Matt Williams 9678
Darrell Evans 9072
Gary Gaetti 9033
Edgar Martinez 9017
Bobby Bonilla 8768
Sal Bando 8767
Ron Cey 8671
Terry Pendleton 8525
Robin Ventura 8188
Buddy Bell 8111
Vinny Castilla 8089
Carney Lansford 7994
Ken Caminiti 7694
Bill Madlock 7692
Tim Wallach 7598
Todd Zeile 7356
Rich Hebner 7063
Howard Johnson 6960
Toby Harrah 6597
Larry Parrish 6550
Travis Fryman 6539
Doug DeCinces 6536
Aurelio Rodriguez 5951
Enos Cabell 5724
Don Money 5695
Charlie Hayes 5621
Kevin Seitzer 5461
Dean Palmer 5421
Bill Mueller 5394
Joe Randa 5309
Ed Sprague 5220
Ray Knight 5167
Ken Oberkfell 4972
Phil Nevin 4851
David Bell 4841
Jeff King 4795
Brook Jacoby 4295
Luis Salazar 4227
Dave Magadan 4209
Jerry Royster 4108
Steve Buechele 4072
Ken Reitz 4038

Era 7
Chipper Jones 10,922
Scott Rolen 8030
Eric Chavez 6246
Mike Lowell 6192
Troy Glaus 5993
Edgardo Alfonzo 5802
Adrian Beltre 5786
Jeff Cirillo 5619
Aramis Ramirez 5326
Tony Batista 4924

[Cougar]

Where's Pie traynor? did i miss him?

[henrich]

Where's Pie traynor? did i miss him?

That was an oversight on my part. Thanks!

3B Pie Traynor 9133 at the top of Era 3

[henrich]

Era 1
Harry Stovey 9296
Hardy Richardson 6921
Tip O'Neill 6457

Era 2
Ed Delahanty 11,083
Fred Clarke 10,483
Zach Wheat 10,437
Sherry Magee 9800
Jesse Burkett 9423
Joe Kelley 8626
Joe Jackson 8539
Bobby Veach 8017
George Burns 7765
Jimmy Sheckard 7765
Duffy Lewis 7635
Elmer Smith 6857
John Anderson 6843
Kip Selbach 6568
Patsy Dougherty 6180
Topsy Hartsell 6086
Tilly Walker 5793
Les Mann 5703
Bob Bescher 5093
Jack Graney 4691
Howard Shanks 4664
Jack McCarthy 4166

Era 3
Al Simmons 13,606
Goose Goslin 12,582
Joe Medwick 12,315
Bob Meusel 9586
Heinie Manush 9279
Bob Johnson 8759
Gee Walker 8078
Irish Meusel 7927
Chick Hafey 7918
Ken Williams 7322
Augie Galen 7142
Charlie Jamieson 6665
Jeff Heath 6617
Joe Vosmik 6206
Jo-Jo Moore 6204
Roy Johnson 6165
Riggs Stephenson 6074
George Case 5678
Bibb Falk 5395
John Stone 5191
Carson Bigbee 4995
Rip Radcliff 4544

Era 4
Stan Musial 18,647
Ted Williams 17,335
Minnie Minoso 9077
Del Ennis 8907
Gene Woodling 8198
Ralph Kiner 7995
Harvey Kuenn 6966
Hector Lopez 6641
Wally Moon 6579
Hank Sauer 6486
Frank Thomas 6422
Sid Gordon 5861
Peanuts Lowery 4370

Era 5
Carl Yastrzemski 14,884
Lou Brock 12,044
Willie Stargell 11,662
Billy Williams 10,584
Boog Powell 10,041
Tommy Davis 9101
Frank Howard 8931
Willie Horton 8041
Curt Flood 7745
Roy White 7325
Rico Carty 6739
Tommy Harper 6467
Bob Allison 6357
Tom Tresh 5862
Don Buford 5493
Leon Wagner 5384
Cleon Jones 5338
Alex Johnson 5189
Tito Francona 5064
Johnny Briggs 4161
Lee Maye 4040

Era 6
Rickey Henderson 15,519
Pete Rose15,334
Jim Rice 11,347
Tim Raines 11,220
George Foster 10,926
Don Baylor 10,848
Joe Carter 10,321
George Bell 8808
Albert Belle 8686
Greg Luzinski 8513
Dusty Baker 8487
Lonnie Smith 8483
Dave Kingman 8177
Kirk Gibson 8177
Ron Gant 8107
Jose Cruz 7985
BJ Surhoff 7730
Joe Rudi 7729
Brian Downing 7376
Gary Matthews 7363
Lou Pinella 7152
Kevin Mitchell 7029
Greg Vaughn 6970
Vince Coleman 6550
Ben Oglivie 6510
Luis Polonia 6198
Kevin McReynolds 6038
Mike Greenwell 5889
Ralph Garr 5634
Jeff Leonard 5411
Dan Gladden 5401
Bill Robinson 5360
Larry Herndon 5205
Bobby Higginson 5128
Carlos May 5091
Pete Incaviglia 5031
Billy Hatcher 4911
Dave Collins 4897
Al Martin 4896
Lee Mazzilli 4809
Tom Paciorek 4674
Bernard Gilkey 4663
Gary Ward 4558
Mel Hall 4551
Troy O'Leary 4520
Steve Kemp 4431

Era 7
Barry Bonds 20,283
Luis Gonzalez 9705
Moises Alou 8603
Garret Anderson 8324
Brian Giles 7618
Lance Berkman 6746
Cliff Floyd 6390
Carlos Lee 6144
Shannon Stewart 5990
Rondell White 5815
Dmitri Young 5112
Geoff Jenkins 4969
Pat Burrell 4895
Raul Ibanez 4888
Jacque Jones 4858

[henrich]

Era 1
1 Brown Tom 7756
2 Hines Paul 7690
3 Griffin Mike 7599
4 Browning Pete 7344
5 Gore George 5822

Era 2
1 Cobb Ty 20706
2 Speaker Tris 15300
3 Duffy Hugh 10689
4 Hamilton Billy 9243
5 O'Rourke Jim 9176
6 Ryan Jimmy 9025
7 Leach Tommy 8773
8 Van Haltren George 8629
9 Hoy Dummy 7512
10 Beaumont Ginger 7395
11 Mertes Sam 7071
12 Jones Fielder 6865
13 Milan Clyde 6831
14 Strunk Amos 6787
15 Seymour Cy 6637
16 Stahl Chick 6308
17 Brodie Steve 6029
18 Paskert Dode 5960
19 Hofman Solly 5954
20 Oldring Rube 5921
21 Myers Hy 5281
22 Leibold Nemo 5256
23 Thomas Roy 4940
24 Shotton Burt 4655
25 Hemphill Charlie 4388

Era 3
1 DiMaggio Joe 17310
2 Carrey Max 10107
3 Cramer Doc 9846
4 Roush Edd 9197
5 Averill Earl 8679
6 Chapman Ben 8667
7 Wilson Hack 8116
8 Combs Earle 8082
9 Berger Wally 8066
10 Williams Cy 8062
11 Waner Lloyd 7063
12 Jacobson Baby 6266
13 Haas Mule 6164
14 West Sammy 6002
15 Moore Terry 5911
16 Smith Jack 5513
17 Kreevich Mike 5157
18 Schulte Fred 4814
19 Witt Whitey 4714
20 Allen Ethan 4679

Era 4
1 Mantle Mickey 19609
2 Snider Duke 12231
3 Ashburn Richie 8448
4 Hopp Johnny 8148
5 Doby Larry 8063
6 Pafko Andy 7817
7 Thomson Bobby 7569
8 Bruton Bill 6682
9 Bell Gus 6526
10 DiMaggio Dom 6377
11 Piersall Jimmy 5673
12 Virdon Bill 5577
13 Chapman Sam 5401
14 McCosky Barney 5028
15 Busby Jim 4235
16 Tuttle Bill 4003

Era 5
1 Mays Willie 19119
2 Davis Willie 10131
3 Pinson Vada 9885
4 Blair Paul 8924
5 Wynn Jimmy 7865
6 Cardenal Jose 7767
7 Alou Matty 6464
8 Davalillo Vic 6462
9 Tolan Bobby 6027
10 Tovar Cesar 5862
11 Landis Jim 5535
12 Stanley Mickey 5316
13 Gonzalez Tony 5240
14 Berry Ken 3708

Era 6
1 Dale Murphy 10,392
2 Oliver Al 10157
3 Puckett Kirby 10113
4 Davis Chili 9898
5 McGee Willie 9392
6 Wilson Willie 9232
7 Otis Amos 9200
8 Cedeno Cesar 9015
9 Lynn Fred 8853
10 Maddox Garry 8068
11 Butler Brett 7731
12 Monday Rick 7351
13 Van Slyke Andy 7181
14 Rivers Mickey 6948
15 Lemon Chet 6938
16 Johnstone Jay 6455
17 Henderson Dave 6443
18 Moreno Omar 6175
19 Armas Tony 6134
20 Moseby Lloyd 6007
21 Bumbry Al 5977
22 Wilson Mookie 5843
23 Thomas Gorman 5711
24 Hisle Larry 5410
25 LeFlore Ron 5405
26 Jones Ruppert 5390
27 Mumphrey Jerry 5123
28 Unser Del 4920
29 Landreaux Ken 4825
30 Beniquez Juan 4781
31 Grubb Johnny 4760
32 Henderson Ken 4614
33 Manning Rick 4517
Era 7
1 Williams Bernie 11911
2 Burks Ellis 9336
3 Grissom Marquis 9293
4 Davis Eric 7823
5 White Devon 7780
6 Lankford Ray 6794
7 Anderson Brady 6781
8 Nixon Otis 6354
9 Johnson Lance 6331
10 Javier Stan 6164
11 Kelly Roberto 6060
12 Curtis Chad 5792
13 Dykstra Lenny 5784
14 Everett Carl 5321
15 Martinez Dave 5292
16 Hamilton Darryl 5113
17 McRae Brian 4862
18 Lewis Darren 4359

Era 8
1 Griffey Jr. Ken 12924
2 Lofton Kenny 10749
3 Finley Steve 10383
4 Jones Andruw 9580
5 Edmonds Jim 9471
6 Damon Johnny 8469
7 Beltran Carlos 6779
8 Erstad Darin 6595
9 Cameron Mike 6306
10 Hunter Torii 6239
11 Pierre Juan 5942
12 Wilson Preston 5250
13 Cruz Jr. Jose 5029
14 Winn Randy 4967
15 Kotsay Mark 4936
16 Wells Vernon 4931
17 Payton Jay 4422
18 Roberts Dave 4262
19 Rowand Aaron 4180
20 Matthews Jr Gary 3763
21 Patterson Corey 3703
22 Sizemore Grady 3386
23 Granderson Curtis 2777



Note I split the CF's into 8 eras as 1973-2006 seemed too long. I've done the same at all positions, but I been typing in the old spreadsheets for the other positions so I tried to stay consistent. I had typed in CF's twice before, but the computer kept kicking me off and forcing me to log back in, so in frustration I just cut and pasted from my website to save time. Hopefully it works this time, sorry for the confusion with the different eras. If curious just see the website to see how 6 and 7 break apart in eras for the other positions.

[henrich]

Era 1
1 Kelly King 8462
2 Burns Oyster 6832
3 McCarthy Tommy 6308
4 Wolf William 5573

Era 2
1 Crawford Sam 12802
2 Hooper Harry 9776
3 Keeler Wee Willie 9435
4 Thompson Sam 9429
5 Schulte Wildfire 8522
6 Murphy Danny 7844
7 Donovan Patsy 7090
8 Flick Elmer 6575
9 Freeman Buck 6575
10 Collins Shano 6245
11 Stengel Casey 6230
12 Murray Red 6146
13 Griffith Tommy 5559
14 Flack Max 5476
15 Wilson Owen 5392
16 Dowd Tommy 5143
17 Titus Johnny 4951
18 Browne George 4751
19 Mitchell Mike 4616
20 Berry Shad 3800
21 Hartzell Roy 3796

Era 3
1 Ruth Babe 20567
2 Ott Mel 13899
3 Waner Paul 11388
4 Klein Chuck 11220
5 Heilmann Harry 10963
6 Rice Sam 10557
7 Henrich Tommy 9654
8 Walker Dixie 8556
9 Miller Bing 8040
10 Youngs Ross 7666
11 Herman Babe 7573
12 Nicholson Bill 7283
13 Moses Wally 7142
14 Tobin Jack 6176
15 Demaree Frank 6016
16 Walker Curt 5818
17 Southworth Billy 5672
18 Reynolds Carl 5581
19 Campbell Bruce 5557
20 Heathcote Cliff 4890
21 Finney Lou 4676

Era 4

1 Slaughter Enos 11371
2 Bauer Hank 9360
3 Furillo Carl 9148
4 Jensen Jackie 9086
5 Wertz Vic 7432
6 Holmes Tommy 6186
7 Smith Al 6156
8 Philley Dave 5852
9 Valo Elmer 5517
10 Mueller Don 5360
11 Post Wally 5056
12 Marshall Willard 4562
13 Wyrostek Johnny 4076

Era 5
1 Aaron Hank 19142
2 Robinson Frank 16658
3 Kaline Al 13419
4 Clemente Roberto 12811
5 Maris Roger 9486
6 Oliva Tony 8381
7 Colavito Rocky 8186
8 Alou Felipe 7320
9 Callison Johnny 6734
10 Northrup Jim 5412
11 Alou Jesus 4790

Era 6
1 Jackson Reggie 15255
2 Winfield Dave 13451
3 Parker Dave 12494
4 Dawson Andre 12370
5 Evans Dwight 10932
6 Baines Harold 9900
7 Smith Reggie 9426
8 Bonds Bobby 9119
9 Staub Rusty 8992
10 Griffey Ken 8745
11 Hendrick George 8419
12 Clark Jack 8206
13 Murcer Bobby 7680
14 Singleton Ken 7375
15 Washington Claudell 7170
16 Brunansky Tom 6455
17 Burroughs Jeff 6406
18 Zisk Richie 6331
19 Lacy Lee 6000
20 Maldonado Candy 5871
21 Barfield Jesse 5695
22 Cowens Al 5691
23 Hayes Von 5496
24 Moreland Keith 5442
25 Brooks Hubie 5396
26 Gamble Oscar 5389
27 Bass Kevin 5171
28 Ford Dan 4971
29 Puhl Terry 4813
30 Lezcano Sixto 4761
31 Kelly Pat 4712
32 Morales Jerry 4147
33 Wilson Glenn 4037

Era 7
1 Gwynn Tony 11599
2 Walker Larry 11155
3 Canseco Jose 10974
4 O'Neill Paul 10612
5 Gonzalez Juan 10322
6 Strawberry Darryl 9582
7 Justice David 9388
8 Sierra Ruben 9274
9 Bichette Dante 7805
10 Salmon Tim 7338
11 Mondesi Raul 7187
12 Burnitz Jeremy 6335
13 Buhner Jay 6313
14 Jordan Brian 6142
15 Bell Derek 6136
16 Tartabull Danny 5988
17 Lawton Matt 5025
18 Eisenreich Jim 4404
19 Tucker Michael 4095
20 Orsulak Joe 4026

Era 8
1 Ramirez Manny 12059
2 Sosa Sammy 11665
3 Sheffield Gary 11037
4 Guerrero Vladimir 9931
5 Green Shawn 8568
6 Sanders Reggie 8191
7 Suzuki Ichiro 7580
8 Ordonez Magglio 7278
9 Stairs Matt 5344
10 Nixon Trot 5204
11 Kearns Austin 3164
12 Guillen Jose 5172
13 Gibbons Jay 3318
14 Encarnacion Juan 5848
15 Dye Jermaine 7163
16 Drew JD 5624
17 Cuddyer Michael 3335
18 Abreu Bobby 7243

[henrich]

Ramirez, Sosa, Sheffield, Guerrero should all be in italics, sorry.

[henrich]

Era 1
1 Ewing Buck 6982

Era 2
1 Farrell Duke 6523
2 Schalk Ray 5699
3 McGuire Deacon 5597
4 King Johnny 5476
5 Bresnahan Roger 5473
6 O'Connor Jack 5328
7 Davis Spud 5312
8 Hemsley Rollie 5291
9 Zimmer Chief 4946
10 Robinson Wilbert 4781
11 O'Neill Steve 4494
12 Wingo Ivy 4128
13 Peitz Heinie 4114
14 Dooin Red 3282

Era 3
1 Dickey Bill 11772
2 Cochrane Mickey 9537
3 Hartnett Gabby 8963
4 Lombardi Ernie 7802
5 Schang Wally 7516
6 Mancuso Gus 6424
7 Wilson Jimmie 6287
8 Snyder Frank 5319
9 Ferrell Rick 5045
10 Sewell Luke 4876
11 Ruel Muddy 4761

Era 4
1 Berra Yogi 16703
2 Campanella Roy 8689
3 Cooper Walker 6749
4 Lollar Sherm 6003
5 Crandall Del 5726
6 Burgess Smokey 5188
7 Hegan Jim 4622

Era 5
1 Howard Elston 9470
2 Torre Joe 8539
3 McCarver Tim 7189
4 Freehan Bill 6780
5 Roseboro Johnny 6218
6 Grote Jerry 5294
7 Edwards Johnny 4244

Era 6
1 Bench Johnny 12324
2 Fisk Carlton 9128
3 Carter Gary 9006
4 Simmons Ted 8532
5 Munson Thurman 7565
6 Parrish Lance 7421
7 Downing Brian 7376
8 Boone Bob 7121
9 Tenace Gene 6850
10 Porter Darrell 6441
11 Pena Tony 6353
12 Sanguillen Manny 6320
13 Steinback Terry 6115
14 Sundberg Jim 5698
15 Dempsey Rick 5509
16 Scioscia Mike 5025
17 Kennedy Terry 4938
18 Heath Mike 4741
19 Cerone Rick 3945
20 Ashby Alan 3831
21 Wynegar Butch 3792

Era 7
1 Lopez Javy 7793
2 Surhoff BJ 7730
3 Santiago Benito 6717
4 Girardi Joe 5401
5 Tettleton Mickey 5070
6 Johnson Charles 4426
7 Slaught Don 4397
8 Wilson Dan 4291
9 Matheny Mike 4283
10 Hundley Todd 4018

Era 8
1 Rodriguez Ivan 10893
2 Piazza Mike 9678
3 Posada Jorge 8714
4 Kendall Jason 5979
5 Ausmus Brad 5515
6 Alomar Jr. Sandy 5239
7 Varitek Jason 5186
8 Molina Benji 4512
9 Lieberthal Mike 4504
10 Pierzynski AJ 4443
11 Hernandez Ramon 4272
12 LoDuca Paul 4066
13 Martinez Victor 3601
14 Barrett Michael 3587
15 Mauer Joe 2986

[henrich]

Era 1

1 Galvin Pud 12739
2 Keefe Tim 11552
3 Welch Mickey 10560
4 Clarkson John 10483
5 Radbourn Charles 9960
6 McCormick Jim 9239
7 White Will 7961
8 Multane Tony 7777
9 Whitney Jim 7161
10 King Silver 6749
11 Bullinton Charlie 6700
12 Terry Adonis 6225
13 Stivetts Jack 5813
14 Matthews Bobby 5664
15 Chamberlain Icebox 5028
16 Killen Frank 4045
17 Dwyer Frank 4023
18 Meekin Jouette 3360

Era 2
1 Johnson Walter 24549
2 Young Cy 20493
3 Alexander Pete 19609
4 Mathewson Christy 18932
5 Plank Eddie 16831
6 Brown Mordecai 13659
7 Nichols Kid 13199
8 Walsh Ed 12626
9 Bender Chief 11681
10 Waddell Rube 11586
11 Willis Vic 11397
12 Powell Jack 9921
13 Cicotte Eddie 9891
14 Adams Babe 9581
15 Reulbach Ed 9572
16 Rusie Amos 9399
17 Marquard Rube 9338
18 McGinnity Joe 9298
19 Vaughn Hippo 8956
20 Mullin George 8907
21 Ames Red 8782
22 Coombs Jack 8747
23 Cooper Wilbur 8732
24 Donovan Bill 8677
25 Leever Sam 8412
26 Leonard Dutch 8259
27 Joss Addie 8146
28 Weyhing Gus 8135
29 Wood Smokey Joe 7989
30 Sallee Slim 7825
31 Rucker Nap 7737
32 Chesbro Jack 7690
33 Phillippe Deacon 7549
34 Wiltse Hooks 7465
35 Moore Earl 7392
36 Tannehill Jesse 7320
37 Dauss Hooks 7236
38 Doak Bill 7194
39 Pfeffer Jeff 6906
40 Toney Fred 6728
41 Tyler Lefty 6698
42 Hendrix Claude 6627
43 Orth Al 6558
44 Fraser Chick 6513
45 Griffith Clark 6450
46 Benton Rube 6365
47 Smith Frank 6206
48 Camnitz Howie 6150
49 Rudolph Dick 6136
50 Hughes Long 6028
51 Leifield Lefty 5961
52 Dineneen Bill 5847
53 Taylor Jack 5602
54 Falkenbourg Cy 5589
55 Ruth Babe 5443
56 Caldwell Ray 5425
57 Cheney Larry 5361
58 Groom Bob 5169
59 Altrock Nick 5000
60 Kennedy Brickyard 4952
61 Howell Harry 4851
62 Ewing Bob 4638
63 Morton Guy 4490
64 Breitenstein Theo 4484
65 Fisher Ray 4430
66 Morgan Cy 4282
67 Crandall Doc 4181
68 Shaw Jim 4137
69 Hamilton Earl 4105
70 Gleason Kid 3894
71 Petty Barney 3893
72 Willett Ed 3790
73 Mitchell Willie 3706
74 Howley Pink 3664
75 Ayers Doc 3307
76 Fromme Art 3298
77 Mamaux Al 3285
78 Schupp Ferdie 3153
79 Sudhoff Willie 2878
80 Cullop Nick 2860
81 Harper Harry 2853
82 Ragan Pat 2850
83 Callahan Nixey 2795
84 Foreman Frank 2781
85 Smith Charlie 2280
86 Newton Doc 2037
87 Mitchell Roy 1899
88 Maul Al 1871
89 Bailey Bill 1785
90 Jacobs Elmer 1781
91 Lowdermilk Grover 1126

Era 3
1 Grove Lefty 14841
2 Ruffing Red 14697
3 Pennock Herb 13312
4 Hubbell Carl 12912
5 Grimes Burleigh 11722
6 Gomez Lefty 11393
7 Shawkey Bob 10585
8 Bush Bullet 10239
9 Newsom Bobo 10227
10 Mays Carl 10097
11 Coveleski Stan 10071
12 Walters Bucky 10047
13 Vance Dazzy 10040
14 Bridges Tommy 9984
15 Derringer Paul 9892
16 Quinn Jack 9836
17 Hoyt Waite 9786
18 Rixey Eppa 9340
19 Faber Red 9331
20 French Larry 9012
21 Dean Dizzy 8995
22 Chandler Spud 8854
23 Warneke Lon 8805
24 Luque Dolf 8800
25 Root Charley 8709
26 Shocker Urban 8698
27 Cooper Mort 8553
28 Nehf Art 8309
29 Jones Sad 8258
30 Fitzsimmons Freddie 8075
31 Haines Jesse 8061
32 Trout Dizzy 8041
33 Lyons Ted 7898
34 Marberry Firpo 7497
35 Lee Bill 7463
36 Leonard Dutch 7450
37 Uhle George 7430
38 Hadley Bump 7283
39 Vander Meer Johnny 7194
40 Passeau Claude 7059
41 Harder Mel 6995
42 Malone Pat 6974
43 Schumacher Hal 6961
44 Rommel Eddie 6784
45 Meadows Lee 6748
46 Zachary Tom 6740
47 Lanier Max 6696
48 Walberg Rube 6695
49 Barnes Jesse 6678
50 Rowe Schoolboy 6603
51 Ehmke Howard 6520
52 Gumbert Harry 6449
53 Whitehill Earl 6225
54 Davis Curt 6159
55 Crowder General 6129
56 Farrell Wes 6040
57 Allen Johnny 6020
58 Ruether Dutch 5968
59 Pipgras George 5954
60 Johnson Syl 5935
61 Mogridge George 5619
62 Sherdel Bill 5579
63 Hallahan Wild Bill 5526
64 Mungo Van 5482
65 Higbe Kirby 5291
66 Benton Al 5237
67 Borowy Hank 5165
68 Lucas Red 5117
69 Bonham Ernie 4993
70 Wyatt Whit 4877
71 Rhem Flint 4854
72 MacFayden Danny 4792
73 Brandt Ed 4762
74 Kramer Jack 4756
75 Morrison Johnny 4681
76 Pearson Monte 4613
77 Smith Bob 4478
78 Auker Eldon 4464
79 Clark Watty 4443
80 Thomas Tommy 4365
81 Lee Thornton 4357
82 Carlson Hal 4295
83 Smith Sherry 4293
84 McQuillan Hugh 4226
85 Sothoron Allen 4211
86 Smith Al 4202
87 Galehouse Denny 4176
88 Hudin Willis 4072
89 Oeschger Joe 4005
90 Barrett Red 3938
91 Mitchell Clarence 3928
92 Muncrief Bob 3870
93 Ring Jimmy 3790
94 Russell Allan 3788
95 Potter Nels 3787
96 Bagby Jim 3766
97 Caster George 3760
98 Dietrich Bill 3745
99 Donahue Pete 3691
100 Collins Rip 3544
101 Kaufman Tony 3495
102 Frankhouse Fred 3462
103 Johnson Hank 3423
104 Johnson Si 3385
105 Vangilder Elam 3359
106 Danforth Dave 3324
107 Sorrell Vic 3269
108 Ostemueller Fritz 3239
109 Butcher Max 3210
110 Hildebrand Oral 3182
111 May Jakie 3120
112 Swift Bill 3116
113 Cadore Leon 3080
114 Brown Lloyd 3075
115 Blaeholder George 3061
116 Stewart Lefty 2963
117 Russell Jack 2958
118 Hogsett Chief 2856
119 Lohman Bill 2800
120 Gaston Milt 2765
121 Kolp Ray 2739
122 Kennedy Vern 2676
123 Smith Eddie 2674
124 Hollingsworth Al 2633
125 Hill Carmen 2584
126 Cantwell Ben 2563
127 Wells Ed 2528
128 Elliot Jumbo 2423
129 Davis Dixie 2290
130 Schaute Joe 2272
131 Knott Jack 2259
132 Grove Orval 2254
133 Weiland Bob 2229
134 Betts Huck 2213
135 Parmalee Roy 2149
136 Heimach Fred 2119
137 Marcum Johnny 2087
138 Zuber Bill 1953
139 Bowman Joe 1937
140 Ferguson Alex 1897
141 Lanning Johnny 1510
142 Burke Bobby 1484
143 Herring Art 1168
144 Beck Boom 1132
145 Frasier Vic 950

Era 4
1 Spahn Warren 18288
2 Ford Whitey 16686
3 Wynn Early 13769
4 Feller Bob 13326
5 Roberts Robin 12602
6 Reynolds Allie 11828
7 Newhouser Hal 11526
8 Pierce Billy 10509
9 Burdette Lew 9619
10 Lemon Bob 9287
11 Trucks Virgil 9234
12 Friend Bob 8969
13 Simmons Curt 8842
14 Turley Bob 8795
15 Raschi Vic 8769
16 Lopat Ed 8684
17 Newcombe Don 8614
18 Podres Johnny 8430
19 Dickson Murry 8156
20 Sain Johnny 7975
21 Shantz Bobby 7862
22 Maglie Sal 7452
23 Antonelli Johnny 7447
24 Garcia Mike 7312
25 Jones Sam 7291
26 Law Vern 7187
27 Brecheen Harry 7051
28 Pollet Howie 6994
29 Haddix Harvey 6770
30 Buhl Bob 6338
31 Erskine Carl 6296
32 Raffensberger Ken 5816
33 Roe Preacher 5566
34 Porterfield Bob 5552
35 Lary Frank 5524
36 Donovan Dick 5425
37 Dobson Joe 5422
38 Blackwell Ewell 5234
39 Schmitz Johnny 5201
40 Nuxhall Joe 5187
41 Rush Bob 4964
42 Branca Ralph 4964
43 Larsen Don 4934
44 Parnell Mel 4872
45 Hoeft Billy 4635
46 Garver Ned 4551
47 Gromek Steve 4479
48 Loes Billy 4285
49 Houtteman Art 4229
50 Conley Gene 4213
51 Purkey Bob 4178
52 Meyer Russ 4137
53 Sullivan Frank 4089
54 Koslo Dave 3886
55 Hearn Jim 3749
56 Heintzelman Ken 3734
57 Brown Hal 3645
58 Herbert Ray 3639
59 Masterson Walt 3585
60 Wight Bill 3564
61 Scarborough Ray 3544
62 McDermott Mickey 3497
63 Kuzava Bob 3411
64 Kramer Jack 3328
65 Hutchinson Fred 3276
66 Hudson Sid 3219
67 Daley Buddy 3099
68 Stobbs Chuck 2982
69 Kellner Alex 2871
70 Wehmeier Herm 2799
71 Delock Ike 2787
72 Foytack Paul 2752
73 McLish Cal 2433
74 Fowler Dick 2302
75 Haynes Joe 2300
76 Coleman Joe 2174
77 Hacker Warren 2172
78 Gumpert Randy 2067
79 Scheib Carl 1685
80 Kretlow Lou 1035

Era 5
1 Gibson Bob 17057
2 Koufax Sandy 14721
3 Drysdale Don 13746
4 Hunter Catfish 13057
5 Kaat Jim 12501
6 Marichal Juan 11833
7 Bunning Jim 11445
8 Tiant Luis 11361
9 Lolich Mickey 11267
10 Cueller Mike 10587
11 Holtzman Ken 9626
12 McNally Dave 9522
13 Pascual Camilo 9037
14 Osteen Claude 8987
15 McLain Denny 8892
16 Pappas Milt 8758
17 Perry Jim 8696
18 Jackson Larry 8149
19 Downing Al 7824
20 McDowell Sam 7693
21 Stottlemyre Mel 7592
22 Chance Dean 7569
23 Wood Wilbur 7306
24 Terry Ralph 7205
25 Maloney Jim 7125
26 McCormick Mike 6741
27 Singer Bill 6335
28 Grant Mudcat 6272
29 Pizzaro Juan 6272
30 Veale Bob 6248
31 Peters Gary 6145
32 Short Chris 6089
33 Sadecki Ray 6079
34 Lonborg Jim 6015
35 Siebert Sonny 5782
36 Briles Nelson 5683
37 Coleman Joe 5673
38 Dierker Larry 5618
39 Nolan Gary 5599
40 Barber Steve 5564
41 Williams Stan 5510
42 Ramos Pedro 5090
43 Culp Ray 5086
44 Odom Blue 5082
45 Jay Joey 4994
46 Sanford Jack 4877
47 Bell Gary 4793
48 Wilson Earl 4792
49 O'Dell Billy 4783
50 Cardwell Don 4586
51 Horian Joe 4575
52 Peterson Fritz 4570
53 Shaw Bob 4540
54 O'Toole Jim 4479
55 Monboquette Bill 4357
56 Hands Bill 4318
57 Craig Roger 4278
58 Cloninger Tony 4110
59 Washburn Ray 4025
60 Jackson Al 4008
61 Lemaster Denn 3805
62 Bouton Jim 3740
63 Merritt Jim 3717
64 Hargan Steve 3651
65 Ellsworth Dick 3485
66 Johnson Ken 3477
67 Brunet George 3341
68 Buzhardt John 2993
69 Fisher Jack 2912
70 Latman Barry 2909
71 Bosman Dick 2867
72 Wright Clyde 2822
73 Krausse Lew 2536
74 Ortega Phil 2439
75 Wickersham Dave 2168
76 Cheney Tom 1905
77 Foster Alan 1581
78 Tsitouris John 1317
79 Blasingame Wade 1247

Era 6
1 Carlton Steve 20326
2 Ryan Nolan 19159
3 Seaver Tom 18655
4 Palmer Jim 17292
5 Sutton Don 16909
6 Blyleven Bert 15941
7 Perry Gaylord 15449
8 Niekro Phil 13892
9 Jenkins Fergie 13457
10 John Tommy 12575
11 Blue Vida 11925
12 Morris Jack 11678
13 Welch Bob 10509
14 Guidry Ron 10258
15 Koosman Jerry 10251
16 Valenzuela Fernando 10114
17 Reuss Jerry 9942
18 Martinez Dennis 9709
19 Tanana Frank 9638
20 Niekro Joe 8657
21 Stieb Dave 8544
22 Reuschel Rick 8520
23 Langston Mark 8334
24 Rogers Steve 8121
25 Hough Charlie 8087
26 Stewart Dave 8036
27 Messersmith Andy 7870
28 Hooton Burt 7716
29 Sutcliffe Rick 7579
30 Viola Frank 7454
31 Billingham Jack 7176
32 Wise Rick 6957
33 Flanagan Mike 6891
34 Candelaria John 6848
35 Fryman Woody 6787
36 Knepper Bob 6718
37 Matlack Jon 6701
38 Leonard Dennis 6688
39 May Rudy 6660
40 Gullett Don 6606
41 Scott Mike 6434
42 Moore Mike 6357
43 Alexander Doyle 6323
44 Torrez Mike 6264
45 Rhoden Rick 6204
46 Ellis Doc 6141
47 Slaton Jim 6061
48 Forsch Bob 5928
49 Hurst Bruce 5919
50 Andujar Joaquin 5857
51 Forsch Ken 5832
52 McGregor Scott 5789
53 Richard J.R. 5713
54 Caldwell Mike 5649
55 Soto Mario 5559
56 Boddicker Mike 5535
57 Leibrandt Charlie 5421
58 Sanderson Scott 5416
59 Darwin Danny 5402
60 Darling Ron 5400
61 Splittorff Paul 5322
62 Tudor John 5303
63 Dobson Pat 5296
64 Ruthven Dick 5270
65 Bannister Floyd 5253
66 Denny John 5246
67 Norman Fred 5233
68 Jackson Danny 5190
69 Fernandez Sid 5048
70 Candiotti Tom 4965
71 Gross Kevin 4952
72 Ojeda Bob 4933
73 Zahn Geoff 4930
74 Gura Larry 4921
75 Bibby Jim 4919
76 Roberts Dave 4912
77 Rooker Jim 4891
78 Whitson Ed 4886
79 Robinson Don 4806
80 Rijo Jose 4781
81 Gubicza Mark 4751
82 Pattin Marty 4644
83 Petry Dan 4578
84 Goltz David 4575
85 Clancy Jim 4572
86 Gullickson Bill 4429
87 Witt Mike 4403
88 Krukow Mike 4343
89 Drago Dick 4317
90 Smith Zane 4276
91 Wilcox Milt 4257
92 Kison Bruce 4253
93 Davis Storm 4241
94 Barr Jim 4211
95 Browning Tom 4200
96 McCaskill Kirk 4168
97 Medich Doc 4145
98 Grimsley Ross 4115
99 Vuckovich Pete 4072
100 Black Bud 4064
101 DeLeon Jose 3954
102 Renko Steve 3935
103 Cleveland Reggie 3905
104 Stone Steve 3900
105 Mahler Rick 3762
106 Terrell Walt 3669
107 Brett Ken 3652
108 Show Eric 3546
109 Dotson Rich 3513
110 Walk Bob 3503
111 Rawley Shane 3501
112 Christenson Larry 3461
113 McWilliams Larry 3405
114 Curtis John 3380
115 Burris Ray 3345
116 Lee Bill 3338
117 Underwood Tom 3338
118 McGlothen Lynn 3319
119 LaCoss Mike 3313
120 Cox Danny 3283
121 Abbott Glenn 3204
122 Smith Bryn 3168
123 Haas Moose 3163
124 Leary Tim 3163
125 Young Matt 3092
126 Norris Mike 2966
127 Griffin Tom 2899
128 Hawkins Andy 2846
129 Zachry Pat 2814
130 Colborn Jim 2803
131 LaPoint Dave 2767
132 Barker Len 2730
133 Langford Rick 2611
134 Sorenson Lary 2609
135 Trout Steve 2596
136 Fitzmorris Al 2593
137 Rozema Dave 2573
138 Young Curt 2556
139 Lerch Randy 2502
140 Deshaies Jim 2501
141 Bonham Bill 2480
142 Heaton Neal 2469
143 Hammaker Atlee 2440
144 Swan Craig 2383
145 Falcone Pete 2370
146 Rasmussen Dennis 2325
147 Krueger Bill 2179
148 Perez Pascuel 2112
149 Palmer Dave 1928
150 Twitchell Wayne 1589
151 Solomon Eddie 1007
152 Bankhead Scott 852

Era 7
1 Cone David 11223
2 Gooden Dwight 10578
3 Hershiser Orel 9869
4 Brown Kevin 8787
5 Saberhagen Bret 7890
6 Leiter Al 7454
7 Key Jimmy 7288
8 Drabek Doug 6304
9 Martinez Ramon 6187
10 Hentgen Pat 5885
11 Appier Kevin 5874
12 Belcher Tim 5750
13 McDowell Jack 5511
14 Witt Bobby 5505
15 Erickson Scott 5502
16 Neagle Denny 5330
17 Nomo Hideo 5305
18 Stottlemyre Todd 5302
19 Burkett John 5141
20 Astacio Pedro 5027
21 Morgan Mike 5003
22 Kile Darryl 4928
23 Hampton Mike 4897
24 Mulholland Terry 4841
25 Benes Andy 4805
26 Tapani Kevin 4712
27 Nagy Charles 4602
28 Fernandez Alex 4472
29 Radke Brad 4394
30 Smiley John 4314
31 Reynolds Shane 4283
32 Avery Steve 4210
33 Hill Ken 4101
34 Guzman Juan 3933
35 Harnisch Pete 3918
36 Helling Rick 3834
37 Portugal Mark 3589
38 Reed Rick 3525
39 Hermanson Dustin 3504
40 Ashby Andy 3478
41 Alvarez Wilson 3440
42 Estes Shawn 3431
43 Bosio Chris 3264
44 Gardner Mark 3261
45 Burba Dave 3253
46 Valdes Ismael 3248
47 Navarro Jaime 3243
48 Jones Bobby J. 3137
49 Tewksbury Bob 3067
50 Bielecki Mike 3008
51 Hitchcock Sterling 2982
52 Anderson Brian 2981
53 Vazquez Javier 2976
54 Swift Bill 2952
55 Clement Matt 2947
56 Eldred Cal 2874
57 Hanson Erik 2865
58 Rueter Kirk 2798
59 Rapp Pat 2785
60 Lima Jose 2785
61 Castillo Frank 2781
62 Abbott Jim 2658
63 Reynoso Armando 2649
64 Lidle Cory 2498
65 Hamilton Joey 2489
66 Smith Pete 2475
67 Rusch Glendon 2330
68 Clark Mark 2228
69 Olivares Omar 2193
70 Wright Jaret 2089
71 Leiter Mark 2032
72 Baldwin James 2020
73 Kamieniecki Scott 1947
74 Bere Jason 1810
75 Mlicki Dave 1809
76 Halama John 1752
77 Haynes Jimmy 1617
78 Sparks Steve 1593
79 Heredia Gil 1537
80 Osborne Donovan 1448
81 Bohanon Brian 1441
82 Haney Chris 1437
83 D'Amico Jeff 1428
84 Jarvis Kevin 1208
85 Meadows Brian 1074
86 Wilson Paul 1019

Era 8
1 Clemens Roger 23322
2 Maddux Greg 19733
3 Johnson Randy 18376
4 Smoltz John 14215
5 Glavine Tom 13030
6 Martinez Pedro 11755
7 Mussina Mike 11613
8 Schilling Curt 11396
9 Wells David 8756
10 Pettite Andy 8564
11 Gordon Tom 7342
12 Rogers Kenny 7286
13 Wakefield Tim 6450
14 Moyer Jamie 6365
15 Colon Bartolo 5922
16 Schmidt Jason 5670
17 Santana Johan 5486
18 Carpenter Chris 5344
19 Sele Aaron 5247
20 Hudson Tim 5037
21 Millwood Kevin 4760
22 Hernandez Orlando 4736
23 Hernandez Livan 4706
24 Halladay Roy 4382
25 Zito Barry 4317
26 Williams Woody 4240
27 Vazquez Javier 4225
28 Escobar Kelvim 4170
29 Morris Matt 4165
30 Loaiza Esteban 4097
31 Trachsel Steve 4065
32 Oswalt Roy 4050
33 Suppan Jeff 3952
34 Sabathia C.C. 3842
35 Lieber Jon 3826
36 Buehrle Mark 3763
37 Lackey John 3702
38 Peavy Jake 3558
39 Batista Miguel 3528
40 Park Chan Ho 3471
41 Webb Brandon 3440
42 Ortiz Russ 3431
43 Dempster Ryan 3332
44 Burnett AJ 3317
45 Wood Kerry 3223
46 Beckett Josh 3219
47 Zambrano Carlos 3062
48 Byrd Paul 3060
49 Washburn Jerrod 3056
50 Garland Jon 3036
51 Willis Dontrelle 3007
52 Penny Brad 2981
53 Ponson Sidney 2776
54 Wolf Randy 2665
55 Oliver Darren 2615
56 Milton Eric 2607
57 Pavano Carl 2477
58 Ortiz Ramon 2451
59 Wright Jered 2374
60 Tomko Bret 2373
61 Lilly Ted 2303
62 Perez Odaliz 2301
63 Harang Aaron 2278
64 Arroyo Bronson 2202
65 Redmond Mark 2087
66 Sheets Ben 2078
67 Moehler Brian 1913
68 Thomson John 1830
69 Wright Jamey 1830
70 Marquis Jason 1826
71 Elarton Scott 1738
72 Prior Mark 1737
73 Westbrook Jake 1724
74 Padilla Vicente 1703
75 Haren Dan 1656
76 Fogg Josh 1505
77 Dessens Elmer 1466
78 Wang Chien 1422
79 Verlander Justin 1384
80 Lee Cliff 1379
81 Robertson Nate 1254

[henrich]

Prominent DH's not listed elsewhere.
1. Paul Molitor 11,057
2. Don Baylor 10,348
3. Hal McRae 9136

[jjpm74]

Prominent DH's not listed elsewhere.
1. Paul Molitor 11,057
2. Don Baylor 10,348
3. Hal McRae 9136

Is Edgar Martinez mentioned somewhere?

[leecemark]

Era 3
Frankie Crosetti 9708
Joe Cronin 9499
Luke Appling 8664
Rabbit Maranville 8433
Joe Sewell 8191
Arky Vaughan 8100
Travis Jackson 8094
Dave Bancroft 7373
Lou Boudreau 7256


---what is wrong with this picture?

[tigers527]

Ryne Sandberg 10,195
Chuck Knoblauch 9082
Lou Whitaker 8691
Really? Knoblauch over Whitaker? Whitaker and Sandberg are almost the same player looking at career numbers. One is a HOFer and the other 1 year on the ballot......go figure.

Tony Fernandez 8863
Alan Trammell 8847
ummm ok

[jalbright]

Era 3
Frankie Crosetti 9708
Joe Cronin 9499
Luke Appling 8664
Rabbit Maranville 8433
Joe Sewell 8191
Arky Vaughan 8100
Travis Jackson 8094
Dave Bancroft 7373
Lou Boudreau 7256


---what is wrong with this picture?

What isn't wrong with that picture is more like it. My ranking would like more like:

Vaughan
Appling
Cronin
Boudreau
Sewell
Maranville
==================== In/out, though Maranville's a close call
Bancroft
T. Jackson
Crosetti

[RuthMayBond]

Era 2Talk about some slippery slopes
12 Powell Jack 9921

Era 3
7 Shawkey Bob 10585
8 Bush Bullet 10239
9 Newsom Bobo 102??
15 Derringer Paul 9892
16 Quinn Jack 9836

Era 4
6 Reynolds Allie 11828
9 Burdette Lew 9619

Era 5

10 Cueller Mike 10587
11 Holtzman Ken 9626
12 McNally Dave 9522

Era 6
11 Blue Vida 11925 Wha...?
13 Welch Bob 10509
16 Valenzuela Fernando 10114
17 Reuss Jerry 9942
18 Martinez Dennis 9709
19 Tanana Frank 9638

Era 7
2 Gooden Dwight 10578
3 Hershiser Orel 9869

[henrich]

Is Edgar Martinez mentioned somewhere?

I have him listed at 3B in era 6 if I recall correctly.

[henrich]

Era 3
Frankie Crosetti 9708
Joe Cronin 9499
Luke Appling 8664
Rabbit Maranville 8433
Joe Sewell 8191
Arky Vaughan 8100
Travis Jackson 8094
Dave Bancroft 7373
Lou Boudreau 7256


---what is wrong with this picture?

Crosetti should be in the Hall of Fame

[henrich]

Really? Knoblauch over Whitaker? Whitaker and Sandberg are almost the same player looking at career numbers. One is a HOFer and the other 1 year on the ballot......go figure.


ummm ok

Sandberg is in and the numbers support this, Whitaker is not, and he's very good, but not in, same with Fernandez. Knoblauch gained a lot of press for his inability to not throw the ball to first base and it cut his career short, but as a Twin he enjoyed a great deal of success.

[henrich]

Talk about some slippery slopes
12 Powell Jack 9921

Era 3
7 Shawkey Bob 10585
8 Bush Bullet 10239
9 Newsom Bobo 102??
15 Derringer Paul 9892
16 Quinn Jack 9836

Era 4
6 Reynolds Allie 11828
9 Burdette Lew 9619

Era 5

10 Cueller Mike 10587
11 Holtzman Ken 9626
12 McNally Dave 9522

Era 6
11 Blue Vida 11925 Wha...?
13 Welch Bob 10509
16 Valenzuela Fernando 10114
17 Reuss Jerry 9942
18 Martinez Dennis 9709
19 Tanana Frank 9638

Era 7
2 Gooden Dwight 10578
3 Hershiser Orel 9869


I tried to do the same weight at 10,000 for pitchers, but somehow it seems to be closer to 11,000 because many of these guys I know won't get in, but the 14 categories for pitchers seemed to weigh a little heavy, but the ranking order I believe per era and for comparison across eras is pretty solid.

[henrich]

What isn't wrong with that picture is more like it. My ranking would like more like:

Vaughan
Appling
Cronin
Boudreau
Sewell
Maranville
==================== In/out, though Maranville's a close call
Bancroft
T. Jackson
Crosetti

I think the system that I created gives a lot more weight to championships, then it does in yours and that's why Crosetti is a weaker player for your rankings. I think it means something to be a winner and the press has no one else to watch/read about when no one else is playing, but those in the championship games.

[RuthMayBond]

I think it means something to be a winner You and Charlie Silvera, but it gets old for Santo, Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins ...

[leecemark]

I think the system that I created gives a lot more weight to championships, then it does in yours and that's why Crosetti is a weaker player for your rankings. I think it means something to be a winner and the press has no one else to watch/read about when no one else is playing, but those in the championship games.

--Having Crosetti at the top of this list suggests that you think having great teamates i smore important than being a great player. Sure Crosetti was on alot of pennant winners, but he was never the top guy - or even one of the top 3 or 4 guys - on any of those teams. Often enough he was the worst regular on the team. That hardly makes for a Hall of Fame resume. The only list the Crow should top is "best Yankee shortstops of the 1930s".

[henrich]

Being a champion teammate wouldn't put you at the top of the list, he would have to do something besides that in order to be at the top. He did do well in stolen bases(5th in bonuses at SS within era), I have him 3rd for SS's in HR (in that era), and 8 World Series rings. That should count for something. You have to be strong up the middle to win IMO, and he was part of that.

--Having Crosetti at the top of this list suggests that you think having great teamates i smore important than being a great player. Sure Crosetti was on alot of pennant winners, but he was never the top guy - or even one of the top 3 or 4 guys - on any of those teams. Often enough he was the worst regular on the team. That hardly makes for a Hall of Fame resume. The only list the Crow should top is "best Yankee shortstops of the 1930s".

[henrich]

You and Charlie Silvera, but it gets old for Santo, Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins ...

Santo gets a lot of ink to get sympathy votes in the HOF but he's 3rd in his era at his position. He was good and I think he was a HOF player, but his is not the worst case out there-that belongs to Bert Blyleven. Jenkins and Williams both made the HOF so there numbers meant something. The HOF has been slow to elect (select) 3B. They are the most under represented position there and adding Santo wouldn't be bad in my book, but I'd also add a few others at 3B, besides him.

[henrich]

Look at how many times your system/feelings agrees with the setup that I've put forth. I think the exception is probably more the case than the rule. If it doesn't agree with your feelings/ratings then look at how many of these players are at the top of their eras at their position and it shows you why/how some people are voted in, and others miss the mark. Where the system is undefined currently are 19th century players, does the line vary by position (i.e. is the standard the same for a SS versus a LF?) steroids era-what does that do to the writers opinions?, Pitchers is it 11,000 or 10,000. Those are some thoughts that have been shared and I agree with. I do think that individual stats are important, but remembering it is a team game and within it are the individual stats are a perspective sometimes that is lacking. it's not everything either way, but it should mean something for both sides of the equation.

I think Crosetti and Nettles aren't in because they failed to hit .250 for a career and that is the kiss of death.

For me one example which I've posted briefly about before was the case of Phil Rizzuto vs Pee Wee Reese. Which one was better, for my gut it was Reese b/c he has superior numbers, but when you take championship play into account Reese loses to Rizzuto by 1000 points. That shocked me, but it explained to me that my gut isn't always right, and individual statistics in a team game need to be measured in that way IMO.


QUOTE=leecemark;1265839]--Having Crosetti at the top of this list suggests that you think having great teamates i smore important than being a great player. Sure Crosetti was on alot of pennant winners, but he was never the top guy - or even one of the top 3 or 4 guys - on any of those teams. Often enough he was the worst regular on the team. That hardly makes for a Hall of Fame resume. The only list the Crow should top is "best Yankee shortstops of the 1930s".[/QUOTE]

[dgarza]

Being a champion teammate wouldn't put you at the top of the list, he would have to do something besides that in order to be at the top. Being a championship teammate gives Crosetti at least an extra 4000 points (I'm not including 1942, since I'm not sure how you'd give points for that year the Yankees lost the series).
That's at least 4000 out of his 9708 total points.
41% of his points came from playing with WS Champ teammates.
Crosetti actually only played in 7 of those WS.
His career WS line is .174 / .269 / .261 - that's worth 4000 points?

Without those WS, Crosetti ranks lower than Eric McNair using your system.

Being on a championship teams does put him on the top of your Era 3 list.

[dgarza]

I think Crosetti and Nettles aren't in because they failed to hit .250 for a career and that is the kiss of death.

Why are you using .250 as a benchmark?
.250 is still below league average for both those players.
Are you suggesting that if those players batted .255 (still below average), they'd be in the Hall? Just because they were less below-average?

[RuthMayBond]

I think Crosetti and Nettles aren't in because they failed to hit .250 for a career and that is the kiss of death.Maybe because Crosetti wasn't that good

<For me one example which I've posted briefly about before was the case of Phil Rizzuto vs Pee Wee Reese. Which one was better, for my gut it was Reese b/c he has superior numbers, but when you take championship play into account Reese loses to Rizzuto by 1000 points. That shocked me, but it explained to me that my gut isn't always right>

It's not always wrong either. Put Silvera in the Hall already

[jalbright]

I think the system that I created gives a lot more weight to championships, then it does in yours and that's why Crosetti is a weaker player for your rankings. I think it means something to be a winner .

For the simple reason that being on a winning team doesn't tell us how much individual credit the player deserves for that. Frankie Crosetti had great taste in teammates (J. DiMaggio, Gehrig, Gordon, Keller, Dickey to name some), that's true. This, however, is a great example of what I think is the limited utility of the tool you use. The HOF voters certainly have favored some of the types of guys your system does for similar reasons, but are those reasons (particularly in terms of the weight placed on them) really logical? Results like the highlighted shortstop list suggest to me the answer is no, and that's why the list looks to me like a shuffled deck of cards. It may or may not be a good predictor of what will happen, but I believe it probably does mimic well what has happened. That doesn't mean it's a good ranking tool, for the same reasons Bill James HOF monitor isn't a good ranking tool.

[henrich]

There are players in the Hall with an average between .250 and .260 but none below .250 that comes to mind.

Nettles definitely would be in the HOF if he hit a couple points higher for his career.

Crosetti, clearly the lesser of the two examples here probably could have made a stronger case for himself, but if he hit 5 points higher his case would have been much stronger.

Why are you using .250 as a benchmark?
.250 is still below league average for both those players.
Are you suggesting that if those players batted .255 (still below average), they'd be in the Hall? Just because they were less below-average?

[henrich]

This is true for Crosetti, but how many people can you name that have that many championships (250 points for league championships) playoff appearances in a career. It adds more exposure and if they play decently during that time it lends itself toward a stage to the Hall.

You are pointing out an exception rather than the rule as most players are lucky to make it to the playoffs 5x in their careers, let alone win 7 or 8 world series. However a winner is a winner, and the writers like that. If the Yanks thought he was a liability he wouldn't have been around that long. They obviously kept him around for some reason and the role of the SS has evolved quite a bit from that era.

Being a championship teammate gives Crosetti at least an extra 4000 points (I'm not including 1942, since I'm not sure how you'd give points for that year the Yankees lost the series).
That's at least 4000 out of his 9708 total points.
41% of his points came from playing with WS Champ teammates.
Crosetti actually only played in 7 of those WS.
His career WS line is .174 / .269 / .261 - that's worth 4000 points?

Without those WS, Crosetti ranks lower than Eric McNair using your system.

Being on a championship teams does put him on the top of your Era 3 list.

[henrich]

For the simple reason that being on a winning team doesn't tell us how much individual credit the player deserves for that. Frankie Crosetti had great taste in teammates (J. DiMaggio, Gehrig, Gordon, Keller, Dickey to name some), that's true. This, however, is a great example of what I think is the limited utility of the tool you use. The HOF voters certainly have favored some of the types of guys your system does for similar reasons, but are those reasons (particularly in terms of the weight placed on them) really logical? Results like the highlighted shortstop list suggest to me the answer is no, and that's why the list looks to me like a shuffled deck of cards. It may or may not be a good predictor of what will happen, but I believe it probably does mimic well what has happened. That doesn't mean it's a good ranking tool, for the same reasons Bill James HOF monitor isn't a good ranking tool.


A good explanation to the past, a possibly good crystal ball to the future with the ranking order the same as writers, but maybe the line has moved throughout the eras due to expectations/drugs. That's okay with me. The overall ranking IMO works, but we can agree to disagree on that. I recognize the importance of slugging percentage, and on base average and what OPS means to a team in the playoff hunt trading for a Mark Tex.... to help a given team in a given year, but for all-time I find severe limitations on that process of just ranking OPS by position by era. It doesn't resonate to me the difference between one player and another like this system does. To me, the system I have shows me that Babe Ruth was two times more valuable than Tony Gwynn. Both HOF players, but Ruth was that much more valuable. The same could be said for Barry Bonds and Vada Pinson. Both could one day be in the HOF, but Bonds was twice the player Pinson was regardless of alleged steroid use.

[jalbright]

A good explanation to the past, a possibly good crystal ball to the future with the ranking order the same as writers, but maybe the line has moved throughout the eras due to expectations/drugs. That's okay with me. The overall ranking IMO works, but we can agree to disagree on that. I recognize the importance of slugging percentage, and on base average and what OPS means to a team in the playoff hunt trading for a Mark Tex.... to help a given team in a given year, but for all-time I find severe limitations on that process of just ranking OPS by position by era. It doesn't resonate to me the difference between one player and another like this system does. To me, the system I have shows me that Babe Ruth was two times more valuable than Tony Gwynn. Both HOF players, but Ruth was that much more valuable. The same could be said for Barry Bonds and Vada Pinson. Both could one day be in the HOF, but Bonds was twice the player Pinson was regardless of alleged steroid use.

Well, then you're saying that the choices of the HOF are basically all logical and adopting that logic for your rankings. The HOF has had the wisdom to enshrine the obvious candidates, but where you're going to get seriously messed up is in the borderline cases, where some of the abominable VC picks are going to wreak havoc.

Frankie Crosetti might qualify under the logic of a Frankie Frisch VC pick, but he's just as awful if not moreso in large measure because he is a logical extension of the illogic of those awful picks. As a professor of mine once said about a highly illogical set of comments by another student in a Socratic teaching environment, "We might as well base our decisions on the phases of the moon." Mixing that kind of "thinking" into any system limits its utility, IMHO.

[highpockets]

Well, then you're saying that the choices of the HOF are basically all logical and adopting that logic for your rankings. The HOF has had the wisdom to enshrine the obvious candidates, but where you're going to get seriously messed up is in the borderline cases, where some of the abominable VC picks are going to wreak havoc.

Frankie Crosetti might qualify under the logic of a Frankie Frisch VC pick, but he's just as awful if not moreso in large measure because he is a logical extension of the illogic of those awful picks. As a professor of mine once said about a highly illogical set of comments by another student in a Socratic teaching environment, "We might as well base our decisions on the phases of the moon." Mixing that kind of "thinking" into any system limits its utility, IMHO.

Well, isn't it better to fail to account for the mistakes than construct a Ptolemaic retrofit to cover them? Crosetti is an outlier, after all, like Tommy McCarthy. You can't win 'em all. Smarter people than us were fooled by him: Joe McCarthy batted him leadoff. I'm impressed by the relative simplicity of the formula and its relative accuracy. It's a first pass, so obviously it can be improved, but it is far ahead of the formulas people have been relying on as predictive mechanisms so far. For comparison, consider the details of James's HOF Monitor/Standards on baseball-reference.

[jalbright]

Well, isn't it better to fail to account for the mistakes than construct a Ptolemaic retrofit to cover them? Crosetti is an outlier, after all, like Tommy McCarthy. You can't win 'em all. Smarter people than us were fooled by him: Joe McCarthy batted him leadoff. I'm impressed by the relative simplicity of the formula and its relative accuracy. It's a first pass, so obviously it can be improved, but it is far ahead of the formulas people have been relying on as predictive mechanisms so far. For comparison, consider the details of James's HOF Monitor/Standards on baseball-reference.

I have no problem with using it to predict what the Hall will do. That's what it's designed for. However, when it's designed to mimic the insane results around the edges that the Hall has, it loses its value for ranking players, because it intentionally incorporates things into the system to mimic those nutty results. If you're designing a car, would you knowingly mimic a design known to result in exploding gas tanks? If you use that idea to predict a similar design will result in an exploding gas tank, it makes sense--but not using it. My point is that the formula can be very good at what it's designed to do, but because it's designed to mimic mistakes, it's not very good to use in a different way, such as ranking players.

[highpockets]

I have no problem with using it to predict what the Hall will do. That's what it's designed for. However, when it's designed to mimic the insane results around the edges that the Hall has, it loses its value for ranking players, because it intentionally incorporates things into the system to mimic those nutty results. If you're designing a car, would you knowingly mimic a design known to result in exploding gas tanks? If you use that idea to predict a similar design will result in an exploding gas tank, it makes sense--but not using it. My point is that the formula can be very good at what it's designed to do, but because it's designed to mimic mistakes, it's not very good to use in a different way, such as ranking players.

No argument there. The H-Factor seems like a good model for the selection process, certainly in comparison to its well-known predecessors. And in the case of Crosetti, I think the exception proves (i.e. "tests") the rule: Worthy but obscure players are passed over in favor of lesser talents on multiple-championship clubs.

[henrich]

I don't think the Hall of Fame has done an atrocious job, exploding a gas tank would not be the way I would characterize it. For me it would be about correcting the oversights that have been missed in the past. Many of the polls here discuss whether or not a player has been missed by the Veterans' Committee. I think that's a worthwhile discussion. I think I remember you wanting a smaller Hall of Fame. How many ideally would be in for you at each position? Would you have 12-15, vary by position, within era? It's a tough answer for anyone, let alone a group of 550+ writers who all know what they've seen by reporting on it.

That being said about correcting the Hall mistakes, that does not include, kicking anyone out of the Hall, as that would undermine the legacy of any player that may or may not be in.

I would be in favor of ranking the Hall of Fame players by position within the Halls of Cooperstown. Having the writers, or the informed public ranking the Hall by position and giving their top 10 players at each position that have been missed to see how many of them agree with the misses. I do wish the process could be faster. It seems to take years for them to finally get it right on a player, but man one can live on that correction for another 5 years. Too bad, many of those elected never get to see their day of glory.

I feel like next year, Dawson, Rice, Blyleven will all be missed because the stage will belong to Rickey. That's a shame for the above 3 b/c they all deserve it.

What are your thoughts on how it became an exploding gas tank? What would you have done differently to correct the voting for the HOF?


I have no problem with using it to predict what the Hall will do. That's what it's designed for. However, when it's designed to mimic the insane results around the edges that the Hall has, it loses its value for ranking players, because it intentionally incorporates things into the system to mimic those nutty results. If you're designing a car, would you knowingly mimic a design known to result in exploding gas tanks? If you use that idea to predict a similar design will result in an exploding gas tank, it makes sense--but not using it. My point is that the formula can be very good at what it's designed to do, but because it's designed to mimic mistakes, it's not very good to use in a different way, such as ranking players.

[henrich]

I'm too new to this forum page to direct what one should/could do, but of the many projects here, how do we make a difference in the voting process that influences the actual results to get a better results oriented vote to recognize the achievements of many that have been overlooked.

Are there parts to all of our formulas to not only account/predict (H-Factor) to better rank players that the mass of writers with votes can buy into? Or the Veterans Committe?

This is one of the best well-known sites to discuss highly intelligent thoughts on baseball related topics. I wonder how many of the voters/committee members read it to influence their votes. Do they have their own formula? Could they be helped by the able minds of people in this chat room? I think so, I'm very impressed with the baseball IQ here. How does one take it from whatif I was in charge scenarios to directly influencing those that have the power.

If the researchers here, can have their say, how would the Hall be different? Would they listen?

No argument there. The H-Factor seems like a good model for the selection process, certainly in comparison to its well-known predecessors. And in the case of Crosetti, I think the exception proves (i.e. "tests") the rule: Worthy but obscure players are passed over in favor of lesser talents on multiple-championship clubs.

[jalbright]

I don't think the Hall of Fame has done an atrocious job, exploding a gas tank would not be the way I would characterize it. For me it would be about correcting the oversights that have been missed in the past. Many of the polls here discuss whether or not a player has been missed by the Veterans' Committee. I think that's a worthwhile discussion. I think I remember you wanting a smaller Hall of Fame. How many ideally would be in for you at each position? Would you have 12-15, vary by position, within era? It's a tough answer for anyone, let alone a group of 550+ writers who all know what they've seen by reporting on it.

That being said about correcting the Hall mistakes, that does not include, kicking anyone out of the Hall, as that would undermine the legacy of any player that may or may not be in.

I would be in favor of ranking the Hall of Fame players by position within the Halls of Cooperstown. Having the writers, or the informed public ranking the Hall by position and giving their top 10 players at each position that have been missed to see how many of them agree with the misses. I do wish the process could be faster. It seems to take years for them to finally get it right on a player, but man one can live on that correction for another 5 years. Too bad, many of those elected never get to see their day of glory.

I feel like next year, Dawson, Rice, Blyleven will all be missed because the stage will belong to Rickey. That's a shame for the above 3 b/c they all deserve it.

What are your thoughts on how it became an exploding gas tank? What would you have done differently to correct the voting for the HOF?

The Veteran's Committees have done most of the damage. The Frankie Frisch led crew gave us a bunch of awful ones, and the 80s came up with some real stinkers. I did a set of polls on the HOF worthiness of guys voted in by various incarnations of the VC, and here's a list of guys who couldn't even muster 40% of BBF participants who thought they were worthy from 1967-1989 alone:

Bancroft, Beckley, Combs, Cuyler, Hafey, Haines, Hooper, Hoyt, Klein, Lombardi, Schoendienst, G. Kelly, Marquard, L. Waner, Youngs, Bottomley, Lindstrom, R. Ferrell, T. Jackson and Kell. There are other picks of this ilk by VC groups, including Judy Johnson from the otherwise fine work by the original Negro Leagues committee. You may say yeah but for a few of these picks, but as a group, they're truly awful choices IMHO. The BBWAA, while not perfect, has Aparicio and Catfish Hunter as their weakest picks, but both at least have some serious point to with prides and at least Aparicio gets more than 40% support. The BBWAA has made some serious omissions, though, such as Santo, Allen, Blyleven (so far) as just a few.

Any system which accurately predicts that Santo, Allen and Blyleven are out while Lindstrom, G. Kelly and Marquard/Haines are in is wonderful in a predictive sense, but IMHO abominable as a ranking tool.

If you haven't, get ahold of a copy of Bill James' Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame? or its earlier edition title Politics of Glory. James describes the unthinking way the Hall "organized" the induction process over time. They yo-yoed BBWAA picks around (on some years, off on others, such that it gummed up that voting and made a VC seem a good idea--and then, when they created the VCs, they left them run free--and Frankie Frisch took full advantage of it, with serious mistakes aplenty. We can't throw them out now, that's true, because it would damage the institution--but those bad VC picks constitute a self-inflicted set of wounds that may never heal. One of the key problems is the proponents of bad choices (take your pick) can now argue for the induction of their man because he's better than George Kelly or Freddy Lindstrom or Rube Marquard or Jesse Haines or Rick Ferrell or another one of the serious mistakes--and it's a lot harder to refute them because of these bad choices than it should be.

[henrich]

Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame is the book that inspired me to write my book. I wanted to see for myself people that should be itemized out, and therefore worthy or not.

Blyleven and Santo I would argue should be in, Allen I think was borderline. s far as your listed mistakes, I again agree, the Veteran's Committee did a horrible job most of the time. However those that you rally hard against, you'll see most of them as the outliers within their era and even more so overall. While admittedly, not perfect, it is the best that I could come up with. I would welcome any suggestions to it. I'll be gone for a few days, but I'll take a look at what you are saying.

[Paul Wendt]

Henrich,

I am confused about this rating system again. Is it your primary purpose to model the HOF selections by the BBWAA voters? (--or by that group plus the veterans committees, I don't recall which.) In other words, do you intend it as a consistent system that fits the past selections awap? Compare the Bill James Hall of Fame "Monitor" and "Standard".

Last month I thought so. In #42 you seem to assent. But I see that you use it as your own personal rating, sometimes.

[philkid3]

For me one example which I've posted briefly about before was the case of Phil Rizzuto vs Pee Wee Reese. Which one was better, for my gut it was Reese b/c he has superior numbers, but when you take championship play into account Reese loses to Rizzuto by 1000 points. That shocked me, but it explained to me that my gut isn't always right, and individual statistics in a team game need to be measured in that way IMO.
Rizzuto had better teammates. How does that definitively explain to you that your gut feeling isn't always right (not that I endorse gut feeling) and rule out the possibility that the system used here is incorrect?

What is the "h-factor" anyway?

[henrich]

Henrich,

I am confused about this rating system again. Is it your primary purpose to model the HOF selections by the BBWAA voters? (--or by that group plus the veterans committees, I don't recall which.) In other words, do you intend it as a consistent system that fits the past selections awap? Compare the Bill James Hall of Fame "Monitor" and "Standard".

Last month I thought so. In #42 you seem to assent. But I see that you use it as your own personal rating, sometimes.

Paul,

I got into this project (writing a book) really as an accident just trying to understand why certain players deserve enshrinement and others are atrocious picks. I can see where people see it as a predictor and if they are comfortable with that-I use it that way too.

This is where others do not agree with me, but I think it holds water for my own ratings. I kind of went into it humbly, "who am I to judge when I didn't see most of these players play?". With that in mind, I gave credence to the writers and their all-knowing powers that are superior to my own. I wanted to "see" what they literally saw. The system is used as a ranking system to me, because the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown is the most important hall of fame in all the major sports, if not of anything. It is the most controversial, because there are strong opinions etc.

Obviously, there are people in the Hall of Fame that many, if they could, would remove from the hallowed ground. I wanted to know who these people were. It's not every Veteran's Committee selection, but there were many that came about this way, and the system shows up that way.

For instance, Roger Bresnahan, Wilbert Robinson as players are largely seen as mistakes selected in 1945. The system shows them as scoring at 5473 and 4781 respectively. It shows that these aberations shouldn't have been in the Hall, so it is remarkable that they made it and it is almost universally seen that these two are poor choices to make it as players only. (I think you know this, but 10,000 is the usual mark of conversation for a hall of famer). I could go on and on about it, but the system exposes why most people's suspicions that some players didn't cut it, and were a product of a good ole boy system.

In brief, if it is good enough for the writers to generally use (knowingly or not) then it must serve as a ranking system for greatness perceived, and all numbers are actual, not projected. If there are any errors, they would be my own, but the intent would be that they would be accurate data. I think the number could be applied to the Negro Leagues, though I haven't done that, nor have I weighted the 19th century guys, as that goes against the grain of the project, but I could see how someone could do that, and make headway.

I see it as both a predictor and a ranking system. The outliers agree with most of the baseball IQ's in this forum. It just gives a little more data as to why.

[henrich]

Rizzuto had better teammates. How does that definitively explain to you that your gut feeling isn't always right (not that I endorse gut feeling) and rule out the possibility that the system used here is incorrect?

What is the "h-factor" anyway?


Good question. I would have thought by stats alone that Vern Stephens vs Rizzuto as the respected Mr. Bill James played out in an entire chapter in his book, "Whatever happened to the Hall of Fame?", would have crushed him.

Stephens had 247 HR to Rizzuto's 38, 1174 RBI's to Rizzutos 563, and though R was faster than S 149 to 25, S still hit for a higher average 286 to 273. This should make Stephens the better player. This was my initial uninformed opinion from stats that I thought were useful.

When I look at a writer's perspective to what they see as useful, chamionships and the playoffs are extremely important. For one, if you are in the playoffs, everyone is watching you, and because the Yanks have 27 championships, being a Yankee means something playing in October. It's expected. Being strong up the middle defensively is extremely important for a team, being a leader is important as well. Shortstop is seen as one of the captains of the field (with apologies to the catcher). Stephens was unable to win a world series, that hurt him in the writers mind. He was perhaps a good stick, but couldn't win the big one. He only made the playoffs once. Rizzuto went to the World Series 10x and his team won 8.

Baseball is a team game, sometimes in a sport hallowed with statistics, we forget that. Who was the best "team" player, that's important to know.

Leading the league in statistics is just one more time in front of the writers that your name appears, for Rizzuto, he must have been well-respected because he won an MVP and he scored 590 bonus points for finishing in the top 10 in stolen bases throughout his career.

This is where Stephens makes his hey though, not just in counting statistics, but in leading the league in HR (520 points), RBI's (580 points), Ave (110 points), and MVP voting (330 points). Even doing all that, he couldn't bring his team to victory.

That's the other side of the coin, Rizzuto gets 4000 points for championships, and another 500 points for his league championships. Whereas Stephens receives 250 points for his role in getting his team to the playoffs.

Result Rizzuto 10,799, Reese 9958, Stephens 8411 for their era.

Do I rank them this way? Yes, because that's what the writers would do. Who am I as a fan to know "better". They seemthem play everyday, I do not, even as much of a fan as I think I am. They know the players better than I do in real sports activity, I'm just making the statistics match the Hall of Fame voting and in the process it creates the ranking system as a by-product.

[Cougar]

I think Henrich knows this, but just in case it isn't clear, Wilbert Robinson is in mainly for his long managing career with Brooklyn, although he was a fairly good catcher on the 1890's Baltimore dynasty as well.

[philkid3]

Do I rank them this way? Yes, because that's what the writers would do.
But what makes the majority of writers correct, instead of, say, one writer who may apply more logic to things?

[henrich]

I think Henrich knows this, but just in case it isn't clear, Wilbert Robinson is in mainly for his long managing career with Brooklyn, although he was a fairly good catcher on the 1890's Baltimore dynasty as well.

I was just looking at early Veteran's Committee choices and chose two early catching inductees. I should have referenced that, I thought I alluded to it, but perhaps not strongly enough.

[henrich]

For instance, Roger Bresnahan, Wilbert Robinson as players are largely seen as mistakes selected in 1945. The system shows them as scoring at 5473 and 4781 respectively. It shows that these aberations shouldn't have been in the Hall, so it is remarkable that they made it and it is almost universally seen that these two are poor choices to make it as players only.
That was my nod to that, sorry I was probably too vague.

[Cougar]

I got it, but I wasn't sure everyone else would. It's no big deal. I'm probably a noodnik for bringing it up.

[henrich]

But what makes the majority of writers correct, instead of, say, one writer who may apply more logic to things?

Kohlberg says that there are 7 levels of morals.

0 level is like animal instinct. I like it, I want it, I will take it.
1 level is accepting the leadership as gospel and obeying. (I'll be a good soldier)

2 level is eye for an eye mentality. He did this to me so I will do the same to him.

3 level is putting yourself in another's shoes and being able to empathize.

4 level is majority rules and that's just the way it is.

5 level is what can we collectively all agree to as a consensus

and the 6th level is doing what you think is right even if it is against the law/rules (See Martin Luther or Ghandi for an example here)

With this in mind, I'd say that the 75% rule for selection is operating under a level of 4.5 which is pretty high, and I don't think the one guy writing is in danger of going to jail for his beliefs even if he thinks it's right to continue posting on his ballot Pete Rose and Joe Jackson, so I don't think the one guy can claim a level 6 status.

The one person can do his/her best to influence the voters by presenting his/her points and trying to persuade others to the reasoning of the one, but that's how decisions are made-welcome to Congress and the lobbyist outside the door. He can change the vote only by indoctrinating the sick system as it presents itself without alienating the people who have the votes. This is a tall order and not too many people are successful here. Bill James is one of those people.