UQFC - Top 21-40 Candidates

[BlueBlood]

Just when you thought it was over. :eek:

C'mon now, you didn't expect us to not want to have all of the top 100 candidates ranked, didja?

Here are the also-rans that narrowly missed the Top 20. For now, all you have to do is right "yes" "maybe" or "no" next to their names. This should automatically lead to most of these guys being ranked. Any ties after the process will result in a ranking vote of the players involved in the tie. Voila.

Here's the list of those that barely missed the Top 20. Post away:

Jim Rice
Gil Hodges
Charlie Bennett
Heinie Groh
Joe Start
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers
Vern Stephens
George Van Haltren
Larry Doyle
Wes Ferrell
Carl Mays
Lou Whitaker
Albert Belle
Dwight Evans
Keith Hernandez
Will Clark
Dave Parker
Darrell Evans
Bill Freehan

[BlueBlood]

My Ballot:

Jim Rice - No
Gil Hodges - Maybe
Charlie Bennett - Yes
Heinie Groh - Maybe
Joe Start - Yes
Tony Mullane - Yes
Bob Caruthers - Yes
Vern Stephens - Yes
George Van Haltren - Yes
Larry Doyle - Yes
Wes Ferrell - Yes
Carl Mays - Yes
Lou Whitaker - Yes
Albert Belle - No
Dwight Evans - No
Keith Hernandez - No
Will Clark - Yes
Dave Parker - Maybe
Darrell Evans - Yes
Bill Freehan - Yes

Edit: Did some Win Shares analysis immediately after posting my ballot and concluded that Parker has a better case than displayed in the usual statistics. Switched him to a maybe.

[jalbright]

Jim Rice--no
Gil Hodges--no
Charlie Bennett--yes
Heinie Groh--yes
Joe Start--yes
Tony Mullane--yes
Bob Caruthers--no
Vern Stephens--yes
George Van Haltren--yes
Larry Doyle--yes
Wes Ferrell--yes
Carl Mays--yes
Lou Whitaker--yes
Albert Belle--no, despite a great peak
Dwight Evans--no
Keith Hernandez--no
Will Clark--yes
Dave Parker--yes
Darrell Evans--yes
Bill Freehan--yes

[Freakshow]

Here are the also-rans that narrowly missed the Top 20. For now, all you have to do is right "yes" "maybe" or "no" next to their names.
I tend to like numerical scales. For this poll something like this:

5 – How did they miss him?
4 – Solid in my book
3 – Maybe not obvious, but clearly over the line
2 – Right around the in/out line
1 – Under the line, probably should not be in the Hall

[leecemark]

Jim Rice - yes
Gil Hodges - no
Charlie Bennett - yes
Heinie Groh - maybe
Joe Start - yes
Tony Mullane - maybe
Bob Caruthers - yes
Vern Stephens - maybe
George Van Haltren - no
Larry Doyle - yes
Wes Ferrell - yes
Carl Mays - no
Lou Whitaker - yes
Albert Belle - maybe
Dwight Evans - maybe
Keith Hernandez - yes
Will Clark - maybe
Dave Parker - maybe
Darrell Evans - no
Bill Freehan - yes

[STLCards2]

Jim Rice - no
Gil Hodges - no
Charlie Bennett - yes
Heinie Groh - no
Joe Start - no
Tony Mullane - yes
Bob Caruthers - no
Vern Stephens - no
George Van Haltren - maybe
Larry Doyle - no
Wes Ferrell - yes
Carl Mays - yes
Lou Whitaker - yes
Albert Belle - maybe
Dwight Evans - maybe
Keith Hernandez - no
Will Clark - no
Dave Parker - no
Darrell Evans - yes
Bill Freehan - maybe

[Paul Wendt]

The final runoff elected all of the honorable mentions from round 3, 1950s-90s, and none from the two earlier periods. Therefore this article covers everyone in round 2 who was not in the final runoff


round 3, 1950s-90s - results for official also-ran

6 Lou Whitaker *
5 Keith Hernandez *
5 Dwight Evans *
5 Albert Belle
4 Will Clark *
3 Dave Parker
2 Darrell Evans
1 Bill Freehan

* honorable mention in round two, advanced to round three in discussion.
The first five came out of the 1980s-90s field, which the group evidently judged much stronger than the 1950s-60s and the 1970s.


round 3, 1910s-40s - results for official honorable mention and also-ran

10 Heinie Groh (5)
10 Larry Doyle (1)
7 Carl Mays (1)
7 Wes Ferrell (1)
5 Vern Stephens (2)
4 Gavvy Cravath *
2 Wilbur Cooper *
1 Wally Schang
1 Wally Berger
0 Charlie Keller *

* honorable mention in round two, advanced to round three in discussion.
(#) number of votes in the final runoff, used here to break ties at the left margin.
The first three and Cravath to Schang came out of the 1910s-20s field, which the group evidently judged stronger than the 1930s-40s.

round 3, 1870s-1900s - results for official honorable mention and also-ran

6 Tony Mullane * (4)
5 Charlie Bennett * (8)
5 Joe Start (5)
5 Bob Caruthers (3)
5 George Van Haltren (2)
1 George Gore *
1 Jimmy Ryan
0 Jimmy Sheckard
0 Tommy Leach
0 Cupid Childs *

* honorable mention in round two, advanced to round three in discussion.
(#) number of votes in the final runoff, used here to break ties at the left margin.
The first four and Gore came out of the 1870s-80s field, which the group evidently judged much stronger than the 1890s-1900s.

[Paul Wendt]

bold means yes; Hall of Merit members
underline means maybe; strong showings in some HOM elections

Jim Rice
Gil Hodges
Charlie Bennett
Heinie Groh
Joe Start
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers
Vern Stephens
George Van Haltren (maybe)
Larry Doyle
Wes Ferrell
Carl Mays
Lou Whitaker
Albert Belle
Dwight Evans
Keith Hernandez
Will Clark
Dave Parker
Darrell Evans
Bill Freehan

The Hall of Merit also recognizes
round 3 also-ran:
- Gore, Childs, Sheckard, Keller
other round 1 winner:
- Pearce, McVey, Sutton, Glasscock, Browning ;; Pierce, Boyer, Wynn, Nettles
other Top 100:
- Pike, Richardson ;; Saberhagen
others in round 1:
- Jones ;; Randolph, Stieb

;; represents the six decades 1890s-1940s. From those decades the Hall of Merit recognizes only some of our round 3 participants.

[Paul Wendt]

bold means yes; BBFever HOF members
underline means maybe; strong showing in the current BBFHOF election
italic means maybe maybe; the BBFHOF decisively rejected only Gil Hodges ("plain" listing) in a sense that the Hall of Merit decisively rejected everyone with a plain listing above

Jim Rice
Gil Hodges
Charlie Bennett
Heinie Groh
Joe Start
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers
Vern Stephens
George Van Haltren
Larry Doyle
Wes Ferrell
Carl Mays
Lou Whitaker
Albert Belle
Dwight Evans
Keith Hernandez
Will Clark
Dave Parker
Darrell Evans
Bill Freehan

The Baseball-Fever Hall of Fame also recognizes
round 3 also-ran:
- Gore, Childs, Cooper
other round 1 winner:
- McVey, Glasscock, Boyer, Quisenberry
other Top 100:
- Richardson
others in round 1:
- O'Doul, in the BBFHOF "contributor" category (with Joe Torre from our Top 20)

[dgarza]

Jim Rice - YES
Gil Hodges - MAYBE
Charlie Bennett - NO
Heinie Groh - NO
Joe Start - NO
Tony Mullane - YES
Bob Caruthers - YES
Vern Stephens -YES
George Van Haltren - YES
Larry Doyle - YES
Wes Ferrell - MAYBE
Carl Mays - YES
Lou Whitaker - MAYBE
Albert Belle - YES
Dwight Evans - MAYBE
Keith Hernandez - YES
Will Clark - MAYBE
Dave Parker - YES
Darrell Evans - MAYBE
Bill Freehan - NO

[Paul Wendt]

The two articles just above show that the HOM and BBFHOF honor more than 20 eligible players who are not in the Hall of Fame and not in our Top 20. That suggests they both honor more than 40 eligible players who are not in the Hall of Fame.

My own ballot now represents something different.
bold - certainly in the top 40, probably in the top 25
underline - certainly not in the top 25, maybe in the top 40
plain - certainly not in the top 40

Jim Rice
Gil Hodges
Charlie Bennett
Heinie Groh
Joe Start
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers
Vern Stephens
George Van Haltren
Larry Doyle
Wes Ferrell
Carl Mays
Lou Whitaker
Albert Belle
Dwight Evans
Keith Hernandez
Will Clark
Dave Parker
Darrell Evans
Bill Freehan


One thing I like about posting ballots rather than answering polls is that ballots are provisional until the deadline if any. Before answering a poll it is too tempting to think it over and sometimes miss the deadline.

One thing I like about answering polls rather than posting ballots is that poll submissions are permanent, done. After posting a ballot it is too tempting to think it over and maybe revise it.

--
For what it's worth, here are four more in bold.
Ezra Sutton
Hardy Richardson
Jack Glasscock
George Gore

Together with the first 15 on my posted ranking of our Top 20 (see the official UQFC final ballot), that makes 25, six plus four here, fifteen there.
There must be more than 25 whom I would "probably" put in the top 25, because I haven't done the work yet. These are 25 of the probables.

[BlueBlood]

I tend to like numerical scales. For this poll something like this:

5 – How did they miss him?
4 – Solid in my book
3 – Maybe not obvious, but clearly over the line
2 – Right around the in/out line
1 – Under the line, probably should not be in the Hall

That's a quality method that helps give preference to the players that some feel very strongly about. However, now that we're outside of the Top 20, I figure a simplistic formula is better because we can then have a percentage right next to the player. Those that use the list in the future will know exactly what percentage of BBF participants felt a given player belonged in the Hall of Fame. It will be far too tricky to navigate if, say, Gil Hodges has a few vocal supporters that downplay everyone else. Then we'd have Hodges much further up than where the consensus would list him, etc.

Also, this format that we're currently uses allows someone in the 41-60 block to jump up, some in the 21-40 block to jump down, etc. There are a few players that were rejected by the majority by the second or third rounds that already are in a group higher than they should be because they were able to muster up an extra vote or two in the polls.

My vision is for it to be...

The Top 20 - After months of exhaustive polling, these are the candidates we've collectively determined are gross oversights from the Hall of Fame.

#21-100 players that receive 75% support - These are the candidates that BBF don't feel as strongly about as a whole but would still be enshrined if we were the Cooperstown voters.

#21-100 players that receive at least 50% support - These are the candidates that the majority here support and could rise in popularity over time.

#21-100 players that receive at least 25% support - These are candidates with credible cases that shouldn't be immediately overlooked.

#21-100 players that receive less than 25% support - These are candidates unlikely to muster up support in the future, they're here to show where another dividing line begins.

And for the record, "maybe" votes are counted as a positive half point for a candidate.

[jjpm74]

Jim Rice-No
Gil Hodges-No
Charlie Bennett-Yes
Heinie Groh-Maybe
Joe Start-Yes
Tony Mullane-No
Bob Caruthers-Maybe
Vern Stephens-Maybe
George Van Haltren-No
Larry Doyle-Yes
Wes Ferrell-Yes
Carl Mays-Yes
Lou Whitaker-Yes
Albert Belle-No (sorry, too short of a career)
Dwight Evans-No
Keith Hernandez-Maybe
Will Clark-Maybe
Dave Parker-No
Darrell Evans-No
Bill Freehan-Yes

[Brad Harris]

Jim Rice--no
Gil Hodges--no
Charlie Bennett--yes
Heinie Groh--yes
Joe Start--yes
Tony Mullane--yes
Bob Caruthers--yes
Vern Stephens--yes
George Van Haltren--yes
Larry Doyle--yes
Wes Ferrell--yes
Carl Mays--yes
Lou Whitaker--yes
Albert Belle--yes
Dwight Evans--no
Keith Hernandez--no
Will Clark--yes
Dave Parker--yes
Darrell Evans--yes
Bill Freehan--yes

21. Will Clark
22. Bill Freehan
23. Darrell Evans
24. Wes Ferrell
25. Joe Start
26. Heinie Groh
27. Carl Mays
28. Lou Whitaker
29. Albert Belle
30. Larry Doyle
31. George Van Haltren
32. Tony Mullane
33. Charlie Bennett
34. Vern Stephens
35. Dave Parker
36. Bob Caruthers
37. Dwight Evans
38. Keith Hernandez
39. Jim Rice
40. Gil Hodges

[Freakshow]

Here's my take:

Jim Rice - M
Gil Hodges - M
Charlie Bennett - Yes
Heinie Groh - Yes
Joe Start - Yes
Tony Mullane - M
Bob Caruthers - Yes
Vern Stephens - No
George Van Haltren - Yes
Larry Doyle - M
Wes Ferrell - Yes
Carl Mays - M
Lou Whitaker - Yes
Albert Belle - M
Dwight Evans - Yes
Keith Hernandez - Yes
Will Clark - Yes
Dave Parker - M
Darrell Evans - Yes
Bill Freehan - Yes

[Freakshow]

Assembling the list of the next 20.

There are ten players remaining from Round 3 polls:

George Gore
Jimmy Ryan
Cupid Childs
Tommy Leach
Jimmy Sheckard
Gavy Cravath
Wilbur Cooper
Wally Berger
Wally Schang
Charlie Keller

To these, add the top 4 also-rans from the 1950's-80s runoff poll:

Bobby Bonds
Ken Boyer
Jim Kaat
Graig Nettles

Add the top "odd-man out" from the Round 2 1980s-90s poll:

Dan Quisenberry

Finally, add the also-rans from the Round 2 1870s-80s poll:

Pete Browning
Dickey Pearce
Jack Glasscock
Cal McVey
Ezra Sutton

[henrich]

Jim Rice yes
Gil Hodges yes
Charlie Bennett no
Heinie Groh no
Joe Start no
Tony Mullane no
Bob Caruthers no
Vern Stephens maybe
George Van Haltren maybe
Larry Doyle maybe
Wes Ferrell no
Carl Mays yes
Lou Whitaker maybe
Albert Belle maybe
Dwight Evans yes
Keith Hernandez yes
Will Clark maybe
Dave Parker yes
Darrell Evans yes
Bill Freehan no

[BlueBlood]

Bumping this thread. This is your last chance to vote.

[JDD]

Jim Rice................................yes
Gil Hodges.............................yes
Charlie Bennett........................................... ..........no
Heinie Groh.............................................. ............no
Joe Start............................................. ................no
Tony Mullane........................................... .............no
Bob Caruthers.........................yes
Vern Stephens........................yes
George Van Haltren........................................... .....no
Larry Doyle.............................yes
Wes Ferrell........................................... ................no
Carl Mays.............................................. ...............no
Lou Whitaker.......................................... ...............no
Albert Belle.............................yes
Dwight Evans..........................yes
Keith Hernandez......................................... .........hellno
Will Clark............................................. .................no
Dave Parker.............................yes
Darrell Evans............................................. ............no
Bill Freehan........................................... ................no

[BlueBlood]

So, I decided to count "maybe" as a postive .25 rather than .5 because they're non-existent support at the moment and it helps break up ties.

Lou Whitaker: 8.5 (77.3%)
- (8 Yes Votes, 2 Maybes)

Charlie Bennett: 8.0 (72.7%)
- (8 Yes Votes)

Larry Doyle/Wes Ferrell/Carl Mays: 7.5 (68.2%)
- (7 Yes Votes, 2 Maybes)

Bob Caruthers/Darrell Evans: 7.25 (65.9%)
- (7 Yes Votes, 1 Maybe)

Joe Start: 7 (63.6%)
- (7 Yes Votes)

Bill Freehan: 6.5 (59.1%)
- (6 Yes Votes, 2 Maybes)

Vern Stephens: 6.25 (56.8%)
- (6 Yes Votes, 1 Maybe)

Dave Parker: 5.75 (52.3%)
- (5 Yes Votes, 3 Maybes)

Tony Mullane/George Van Haltren: 5.5 (50%)
- (5 Yes Votes, 2 Maybes)

Will Clark: 5.25 (47.7%)
- (4 Yes Votes, 5 Maybes)

Heinie Groh: 4.75 (43.2%)
- (4 Yes Votes, 3 Maybes)

Keith Hernandez: 4.5 (40.9%)
- (4 Yes Votes, 2 Maybes)

Jim Rice: 4.25 (38.6%)
- (4 Yes Votes, 1 Maybe)

Albert Belle: 4.25 (38.6%)
- (3 Yes Votes, 5 Maybes)

Dwight Evans: 4 (36.4%)
- (3 Yes Votes, 4 Maybes)

Gil Hodges: 2.75 (25%)
- (2 Yes Votes, 3 Maybes)




This Project's Top 40 Candidates For The Hall Of Fame

1. Ron Santo
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Dick Allen
5. Bill Dahlen
6. Minnie Minoso
7. Alan Trammell
8. Paul Hines
9. Ted Simmons
10. Deacon White
11. Sherry Magee
12. Bobby Grich
13. Mark McGwire
14. Joe Gordon
15. Ross Barnes
16. Joe Torre
17. Dale Murphy
18. Stan Hack
19. Andre Dawson
20. Harry Stovey
21. Lou Whitaker
22. Charlie Bennett
23. Larry Doyle/Wes Ferrell/Carl Mays
26. Bob Caruthers/Darrell Evans
28. Joe Start
29. Bill Freehan
30. Vern Stephens
31. Dave Parker
32. Tony Mullane/George Van Haltren
34. Will Clark
35. Heinie Groh
36. Keith Hernandez
37. Jim Rice
38. Albert Belle
39. Dwight Evans
40. Gil Hodges

[Freakshow]

21. Lou Whitaker
22. Charlie Bennett
23. Larry Doyle/Wes Ferrell/Carl Mays
26. Bob Caruthers/Darrell Evans
28. Joe Start
29. Bill Freehan
30. Vern Stephens
31. Dave Parker
32. Tony Mullane/George Van Haltren
34. Will Clark
35. Heinie Groh
36. Keith Hernandez
37. Jim Rice
38. Albert Belle
39. Dwight Evans
40. Gil Hodges
Quite a contrast to the runoff election to complete the top 20. Only Bennett does really well in both polls.

Also-ran Ballots Points Percent
Jim Rice 9 8.75 31.3%
Gil Hodges 9 8 28.6%
Charlie Bennett 8 8 28.6%
Heinie Groh 5 5 17.9%
Joe Start 5 5 17.9%
Tony Mullane 4 4 14.3%
Bob Caruthers 3 3 10.7%
Vern Stephens 2 2 7.1%
George Van Haltren 2 2 7.1%
Larry Doyle 1 1 3.6%
Wes Ferrell 1 1 3.6%
Carl Mays 1 1 3.6%

[BlueBlood]

That was expected. This format involves everyone whereas the other polls where a popularity contest. The initial polling was great at gauging strong support, especially for coming up with the Top 20 list but it also meant that if nearly a third were gung-ho about one candidate (Rice, Hodges) then those candidates would appear to do well despite the rest of the electorate being indifferent or wholly against their candidacies. The limit of people we could vote for in the polls also allowed those with a taste for the more idiosyncratic candidates to have a larger say. When I could vote for only four guys, I went for the four I most supported, leaving out others that I did.

Strangely enough, I was starting to rethink Hodge's chances in a favorable light at the time and may have even voted for him in a few rounds. :eek:

[Freakshow]

Strangely enough, I was starting to rethink Hodge's chances in a favorable light at the time and may have even voted for him in a few rounds. :eek:
I know what you mean. I have occasionally supported Hodges; ask me in a week and I may have a different take. His numbers don't quite put him in the Hall, although there's worse HOFers at his position. That's one of the small "buts" that Hodges supporters can point to:

1) But there isn't a HOF first baseman from the 50's. He's arguably the best at his position in his era.

2) But his reputation makes him the best fielding first baseman of his era. He won all the gold gloves when they started in 1957.

3) But by all accounts, he had a great character. He really was a successful manager before that career was cut short.