Fallacy of "shoulder bypass"

[JJA]

I just got Coop Derenne's book "The Scientific Approach to Hitting: Research Explores the Most Difficult Skill in Sport ". In general the book is pretty bad, not worth buying at all, but there was one graph I found of particular interest:

http://mysite.verizon.net/jjanagnost/derenne.jpg

This is some data that Derenne got from measurements of Wade Bogg's swing. In the graph is the measured angles of the hips, shoulders, and bat (apparently when looking down on the batter from above).

What the data shows in Bogg's swing is that there is about a 30 degree X-factor during his setup, i.e., his shoulders are turned in about 30 degrees as compared to his hips at setup. As the swing progresses, the hips open first to increase the shoulder-hip differential to about a maximum of 50 degrees at about 0.2 seconds from contact in the plot. The bat is lagging back, and then it takes off at a very fast rate until the contact point.

Now where exactly is Richard's "shoulder bypass"? Where exactly does that bat bypass the shoulders? This graph shows what is really happening, the momentum transfer from lower body to torso to bat. Richard's contentions are absolute nonsense as the hard data above shows.

-JJA

[Go Cardinals]

Funny how the high level players don't try to rotate their shoulder, because they know that they will pull off the ball.

[Go Cardinals]

this clip clearly shows how the shoulders rotate naturally by the hips:

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bondsoverhead.gif

[jbooth]

this clip clearly shows how the shoulders rotate naturally by the hips:

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bondsoverhead.gif

Nice spin Richard. Shoulders rotating naturally from the hips pulling them, is NOT the same as "hands bypassing the shoulders."

The hips turn the shoulders and the shoulders start the hands. Someday, you'll figure it out. (Maybe.)

[Go Cardinals]

richard?





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[jbooth]

richard?





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It's his fallacy, you just stated it. The hands don't "bypass" anything. The hips turn the shoulders, the shoulders start the hands, the arms make the hands move the knob to lead the bathead, and the bathead whips into the ball; in THAT sequence.

[JJA]

Of course there are lots of kids who are "shoulder swingers". It's a very common flaw in high school kids who try to use the shoulders to "muscle" the ball to get power. In Derenne's graph above, the shoulders get ahead of the hips and fire too soon, leaving only the arms to flail away at the ball at the end. Another term for this is disconnection.

That's why there are lots of guys with hitting cues that emphasize keeping the shoulders "back" (like Lau Jr). It's not what anatomically happens, but the cue can help keep connection so that the swing unloads properly.

But Richard doesn't call it a cue, he says that's what happens in big league swings, that the shoulders are bypassed. Derenne's measured data of a multi-time batting champion shows this position has zero merit.

-JJA

[BoardMember]

Funny how the high level players don't try to rotate their shoulder, because they know that they will pull off the ball.

Funny how you can make a statement as IF you have dinner with "all the pros" on a regular basis........

When you sit down with Albert and Manny for a 1 on 1, feel free to share their feelings.....

Until then, tell us what YOU think, not what you think THEY think........

Sheeeeesh...........Amazing.........

[BoardMember]

this clip clearly shows how the shoulders rotate naturally by the hips:

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bondsoverhead.gif

And the hips rotate "naturally" by the legs and pelvic muscles.......

See how "generically" dumb that sounds........

I see bonds opening the bottom and "firing the top"..........

The top's got a hell of a lot more parts then "the hands" kiddo........

[hiddengem]

Funny how you can make a statement as IF you have dinner with "all the pros" on a regular basis........

When you sit down with Albert and Manny for a 1 on 1, feel free to share their feelings.....

Until then, tell us what YOU think, not what you think THEY think........

Sheeeeesh...........Amazing.........


I spoke with Ron Jackson at length last week about Manny. Ron Jackson was his hitting coach in Boston for 3 or 4 years. What Connor said is accurate with what Manny does. He is very conscious of keeping his front shoulder closed and using his lower half.

[jbooth]

I spoke with Ron Jackson at length last week about Manny. Ron Jackson was his hitting coach in Boston for 3 or 4 years. What Connor said is accurate with what Manny does. He is very conscious of keeping his front shoulder closed and using his lower half.

Yeah, you can THINK about keeping your shoulder in,(and you should) but the lower half pulls it around.

Look at how Kent separates his hands from his foot, and how the front hip opens while the front shoulder stays in and stretches the front external oblique.

Then the shoulder moves to catch up to the hip, and pulls the knob into the swing, and then the hands accelerate away from the shoulder. He gets lead arm extension while the hip turns. The shoulder then pulls on the extended arm after the hip pulls on the shoulder.

Of course, you do NOT want the shoulders to open early, but that doesn't mean they are "bypassed", or that the hands go ahead of them without being pulled initially by the shoulder.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/kent090907sep.gif

[jbooth]

I just got Coop Derenne's book "The Scientific Approach to Hitting: Research Explores the Most Difficult Skill in Sport ". In general the book is pretty bad, not worth buying at all, but there was one graph I found of particular interest:

http://mysite.verizon.net/jjanagnost/derenne.jpg

This is some data that Derenne got from measurements of Wade Bogg's swing. In the graph is the measured angles of the hips, shoulders, and bat (apparently when looking down on the batter from above).

What the data shows in Bogg's swing is that there is about a 30 degree X-factor during his setup, i.e., his shoulders are turned in about 30 degrees as compared to his hips at setup. As the swing progresses, the hips open first to increase the shoulder-hip differential to about a maximum of 50 degrees at about 0.2 seconds from contact in the plot. The bat is lagging back, and then it takes off at a very fast rate until the contact point.

Now where exactly is Richard's "shoulder bypass"? Where exactly does that bat bypass the shoulders? This graph shows what is really happening, the momentum transfer from lower body to torso to bat. Richard's contentions are absolute nonsense as the hard data above shows.

-JJA

I think what Ricard might mean by "bypass" the shoulders is this;

when you extend the hands back as you stride out, and then turn the hips, you have connected the hips to the hands, through the shoulders. Therefore, the shoulders WILL turn, so you don't have to think about making them turn. You can think "bypass" them in the sense that you don't have to turn them on their own.

But, that still doesn't answer his dumb statement that the hands bypass the shoulders, and that the shoulders don't start the hands moving. The reason for extending the hands back and getting them "loaded is so that they will move as soon as the hips pull them, through the link; that is the shoulders. The shoulders are the link between the hips and the hands. If the hands go on their own, without the shoulder link pulling them, then the hands are also going ahead of the hips. And, everyone knows, the hips are the power source. Richard even says that. That's his first engine.

Well, if the hands move ahead of the shoulders, and the shoulders are moved by the hips, then the hands are moving ahead of the hips, which means you aren't using the first engine, you're just using the arms/hands.

Of course, the above logic is too much for his pea brain.

It's very simple, the legs move the hips, the hips move the shoulders, the shoulders move arms, the arms move the bat, in THAT sequence.

By the time that your front foot is weighted, the slack is all gone, all connections are made, the hips are linked to the hands, so yes, the link happens in the above sequence, but then for a few degrees of rotation, everything is moving as a unit. THEN, it unloads in reverse of the load. The hips stop, then the shoulders decelerate, and then the hands come around, and start to decelerate, and then the bathead accelerates/whips into the ball.

[Kevin G]

Another interesting debate.
As always "feel isn't real".... but I like to make sense of the feelings of the best.
Pre launch, the back scap does adduct, not as an imminent source of power, but to contract close to the axis of rotation (the spine) to keep the radius from spine to shoulder narrow. As the knob moves forward in a well synchronized way to the rotation, the back arm "slots" and passes through the "T" position that many of you have seen (where the back forearm is nearly vertical as the bat lowers into the momentum plane).
At this moment, 2 things occur.....
1. The narrow arc of the back shoulder drops inside and catches up to the bigger arc of the knob and hands and "nudges" it's rotation in what I feel is a sort of "harmonic addition" (much like consecutive pushes on the back of a child on a swing... each push excerts the same force but the result is a higher arcing swing) This results in a sort of "neutrality", or feeling of "nothingness"
2. Through the back forearm "T" position the back arm for an instant acts like a cantilever, rendering the bat somewhat "weightless".

These simultaneous events could result in some sort of feeling of "bypass" or other nonsense. IMO

[mudvnine]

Yeah, you can THINK about keeping your shoulder in,(and you should) but the lower half pulls it around.

Look at how Kent separates his hands from his foot, and how the front hip opens while the front shoulder stays in and stretches the front external oblique.

Then the shoulder moves to catch up to the hip, and pulls the knob into the swing, and then the hands accelerate away from the shoulder. He gets lead arm extension while the hip turns. The shoulder then pulls on the extended arm after the hip pulls on the shoulder.

Of course, you do NOT want the shoulders to open early, but that doesn't mean they are "bypassed", or that the hands go ahead of them without being pulled initially by the shoulder.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/kent090907sep.gif

JB, you've written numerous times about the front external oblique stretch and I agree with you on it; I'm curious if you have any drill that you use to teach young players how to incorpoate it into their swing if they're swing timing is slightly off and they're not there yet?

[CoachB25]

Just to insert a silly thought to all of this, anyone figure out yet that the shoulders are linked to the hips via the Serape Effect? As those hips fire, the shoulders have to respond via the various linked muscles attached. Unless several noted studies are wrong, you can't bypass those muscles. I'm still trying to figure out how those hands move without the shoulders. I've looked for the anatomical link that allows electrical signals to be sent straight from the brain to the hands. I've also tried to look for the anatomical link where the hands have their own brain. Again, silly.

[jbooth]

JB, you've written numerous times about the front external oblique stretch and I agree with you on it; I'm curious if you have any drill that you use to teach young players how to incorpoate it into their swing if they're swing timing is slightly off and they're not there yet?

Keep your front shoulder in while you start the hips.

[Maxx]

Just to insert a silly thought to all of this, anyone figure out yet that the shoulders are linked to the hips via the Serape Effect? As those hips fire, the shoulders have to respond via the various linked muscles attached. Unless several noted studies are wrong, you can't bypass those muscles. I'm still trying to figure out how those hands move without the shoulders. I've looked for the anatomical link that allows electrical signals to be sent straight from the brain to the hands. I've also tried to look for the anatomical link where the hands have their own brain. Again, silly.

JC santana had an article a few years ago in the NSCA's S&C journal about the serape effect. Also the book Anatomy Trains talks about it as well.

[JJA]

I think what Ricard might mean by "bypass" the shoulders is this;

when you extend the hands back as you stride out, and then turn the hips, you have connected the hips to the hands, through the shoulders. Therefore, the shoulders WILL turn, so you don't have to think about making them turn. You can think "bypass" them in the sense that you don't have to turn them on their own.

But, that still doesn't answer his dumb statement that the hands bypass the shoulders, and that the shoulders don't start the hands moving. The reason for extending the hands back and getting them "loaded is so that they will move as soon as the hips pull them, through the link; that is the shoulders. The shoulders are the link between the hips and the hands. If the hands go on their own, without the shoulder link pulling them, then the hands are also going ahead of the hips. And, everyone knows, the hips are the power source. Richard even says that. That's his first engine.

Well, if the hands move ahead of the shoulders, and the shoulders are moved by the hips, then the hands are moving ahead of the hips, which means you aren't using the first engine, you're just using the arms/hands.

Of course, the above logic is too much for his pea brain.

It's very simple, the legs move the hips, the hips move the shoulders, the shoulders move arms, the arms move the bat, in THAT sequence.

By the time that your front foot is weighted, the slack is all gone, all connections are made, the hips are linked to the hands, so yes, the link happens in the above sequence, but then for a few degrees of rotation, everything is moving as a unit. THEN, it unloads in reverse of the load. The hips stop, then the shoulders decelerate, and then the hands come around, and start to decelerate, and then the bathead accelerates/whips into the ball.


I agree. What I think he's struggling with fundamentally is the idea that "turning like heck" and other similar cues promote the shoulders opening early with all of the corresponding problems. What he doesn't realize is that with all cues, it's how the cue is used in practice that makes it either good or bad. One can certainly use the cue "turn like heck" and still achieve proper sequencing.

[Encinitas]

I agree. What I think he's struggling with fundamentally is the idea that "turning like heck" and other similar cues promote the shoulders opening early with all of the corresponding problems. What he doesn't realize is that with all cues, it's how the cue is used in practice that makes it either good or bad. One can certainly use the cue "turn like heck" and still achieve proper sequencing.

If you teach proper separation, you do not have to teach shoulder rotation. If you get into a good stretch and fire position, and the player's front arm is not collapsing (he maintains whatever lead arm stretch he had) the shoulder's will rotate. For instance, Yeager knows the kinetic link and does not he teach that shoulder rotation should bring the bat into the zone. Now he is not comfortable with the term "Bypass", but he damn sure understands why someone would use it, and in practical application effectively teaches bypass. By that I mean there is never discussion of rotation of the shoulders when working with a student. I don't see what the major difference is between what Richard in this area and Yeager.

[Go Cardinals]

Yeah, you can THINK about keeping your shoulder in,(and you should) but the lower half pulls it around.


You don't understand what he means by the bypassing. It is a cue. Everyone knows that the shoulders will rotate.... but by thinking that the shoulders "don't rotate" you won't pull off the ball. The shoulders will get moved by the hips.

that is my interpretation

[hiddengem]

I agree. What I think he's struggling with fundamentally is the idea that "turning like heck" and other similar cues promote the shoulders opening early with all of the corresponding problems. What he doesn't realize is that with all cues, it's how the cue is used in practice that makes it either good or bad. One can certainly use the cue "turn like heck" and still achieve proper sequencing.


Alright JAA...You tell me...Whats Right and Whats wrong? They are clearly different. This is not meant to flame anybody, but to me, one is "turning like heck" and spinning and the other is swinging in the correct sequence while utilizing the correct shift, separation and lead arm extension.
I realize that this may be another drill, but like you said, a cue used in practice can be either good or bad.


http://xs129.xs.to/xs129/08300/steve08297.gif (http://xs.to)http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/UgglaHRDerby.gif

[Mark H]

The shoulders will get moved by the hips.

Whoever said different?

[Mark H]

Alright JAA...You tell me...Whats Right and Whats wrong? They are clearly different. This is not meant to flame anybody, but to me, one is "turning like heck" and spinning and the other is swinging in the correct sequence while utilizing the correct shift, separation and lead arm extension.
I realize that this may be another drill, but like you said, a cue used in practice can be either good or bad.


Of course it's a drill and of course this clip being up here is a copyright violation. Something Richard reportedly is getting more experience in than he wants. I suggest all of you spending time in his pig sty should quit taking your cues about what Steve teaches from Richard.

[hiddengem]

Of course it's a drill and of course this clip being up here is a copyright violation. Something Richard reportedly is getting more experience in than he wants. I suggest all of you spending time in his pig sty should quit taking your cues about what Steve teaches from Richard.

Here we go again, immediately on the attack, so odd. Why the need to bring Richard into this? I didn't get this clip from Richard, in fact I'm not even sure who sent it to me, but I sure as heck didn't get it on his site. And why are you so defensive and immiediatly attacking Richard? He has nothing to do with this, I was simply asking for an explanation from JJA.

[cubsphill]

whos that guy always wearing tight short shorts in every clip? and why?

[PhilliesPhan22]

That first guy really collapses his back side. About the only thing I could hit like that is a ball off of a tee.

[Mark H]

Here we go again, immediately on the attack, so odd. Why the need to bring Richard into this? I didn't get this clip from Richard, in fact I'm not even sure who sent it to me, but I sure as heck didn't get it on his site. And why are you so defensive and immiediatly attacking Richard? He has nothing to do with this, I was simply asking for an explanation from JJA.

Richard just got booted from another site for his antics in a thread where he posted this clip of a drill which was taken off the private side of Steve's website. Track it back.

[Mark H]

That first guy really collapses his back side. About the only thing I could hit like that is a ball off of a tee.


When you are just unloading in a drill like this you can't expect to do what you can do with a stride/momentum development. Having said that, I disagree. Notice the rock back onto his foot in the last frame. In any case, it's a copyrighted clip off a private website. On that website you will find Steve taking many many different types of cuts as he experiments with ways to get a "feel" across to a student. You might do a frame count on that clip, film yourself and see what kind of frame count you can get.

[PhilliesPhan22]

When you are just unloading in a drill like this you can't expect to do what you can do with a stride/momentum development. Having said that, I disagree. Notice the rock back onto his foot in the last frame. In any case, it's a copyrighted clip off a private website. On that website you will find Steve taking many many different types of cuts as he experiments with ways to get a "feel" across to a student. You might do a frame count on that clip, film yourself and see what kind of frame count you can get.

Fair enough. I am assuming you are referring to the "rock back" on his back foot, since I can't see the front one? Yeah, what about it? What am I supposed to see on the "rock back?" Is having "rock back" the secret to being a great hitter. Educate me.

I think I counted 8 frames, but its early and I've been up since early yesterday. Does that guy have any "private" clips or himself on his "private" website of him privately hitting live pitching?

I may try to film myself (I don't own a tripod) , not sure what "frame count" I would get. I am guessing that frame count is the new measure of a good swing? I know if I posted it here I would get torn apart by those advocating the teachings of various hitting gurus, no matter how good my swing looks, how comfortable I am with it, or how successful I am.

[bob_r]

Keep your front shoulder in while you start the hips.
Could you elaborate what you mean by "keep your front shoulder in" does it mean in line with the pitcher?

[Mark H]

Fair enough. I am assuming you are referring to the "rock back" on his back foot, since I can't see the front one? Yeah, what about it? What am I supposed to see on the "rock back?" Is having "rock back" the secret to being a great hitter. Educate me.

.

It's an indication a hitter got off the back side. As far as hitting with a full swing against live pitching he's 54 with eye problems but you can be assured when he was drafted in the first round back in the day his swing was pretty good.

Keep in mind this is a stop swing drill pure unload from a static position. Pretty dang quick for those conditions. Add in he's 54. I wasn't in that good a shape when I was young and IN shape.

[jbooth]

Could you elaborate what you mean by "keep your front shoulder in" does it mean in line with the pitcher?

No, it just means to keep it where it was in your stance, until the hips make it move.

And, it should be angled in a little bit, so that the separation is short and quick.

The hips shouldn't have to move very much before the shoulder moves.

[JJA]

If Richard thinks "shoulder bypass" is a cue, he should say so and no one would bother him. No, he has said repeatedly and viciously that it's what happens in the swing. Derenne's graph is just more data showing he's wrong, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said previously, trying to restrain the shoulders from opening early is a common cue from many instructors such as Lau. But cues aren't always reality, and this is a perfect example. The shoulders aren't bypassed in the swing, period.

Apparently Steve's swing doing a drill that was posted was taken down so I didn't see it in time. Regardless, I believe it was posted to show that in HG's view Steve is "spinning", therefore "turn like heck" is a bad cue, automatically leads to "spinning".

As I said before, cues can be either good or bad based on how they are supplemented with other instruction. No one uses a single cue to teach a baseball swing. It's the total instruction package that matters, "turn like heck" being one tool in the cue toolbox that might or might not apply to a particular student. For example, Lau uses "turn like heck" to get kids with dead lower bodies to rotate better, and I'm sure he has never heard of PCR. In fact Lau Jr thinks his dad's "6th absolute", "Make a positive, aggressive move back towards that pitcher" should be thought of as turning hard into the pitcher rather than a big stride towards the pitcher. So he uses that same cue all the time. Of course, some people might think that guys that he taught like A-Rod spin because Lau told him to "turn like heck" when he was 16. So be it.

The better question of course is how to use a cue like "turn like heck" to learn to rotate better but at the same have the student avoid "spinning", opening the shoulders early, etc.

[Go Cardinals]

In any case, it's a copyrighted clip off a private website.

What about every swing clip in clips pics and sites? I'm sure SE has plenty of illegal mlb clips all over his site

[hiddengem]

The better question of course is how to use a cue like "turn like heck" to learn to rotate better but at the same have the student avoid "spinning", opening the shoulders early, etc.

I'm not sure you can.

[JJA]

I'm not sure you can.

This of course is one position to take, that it is impossible to use the cue correctly. However, it is exceptionally naive to think that experienced instructors like Lau don't understand obvious swing flaws like opening the shoulders early and "spinning" that can result from using the cue incorrectly. They just have other cues to correct whatever problems may ensue. In Lau's case, he mixes the "knob to the ball cue" with the "no-feet, no-shoulders" drill together with "turn like heck" to help produce the swing he is looking for. Each cue in itself can produce awful results depending on how it is taught and used, but used in conjunction he produces swings that are free from these obvious type of flaws. The devil is definitely in the details.

For example, let's suppose some young kid shows up with a dead lower half, all arm swinger. Very common swing flaw among young players. You give the kid the swing cue "turn like heck". The cue then gets the kid to start using his lower body, but maybe he's opening up way early, pulling off the ball. The cue has helped one problem but created another. The instructor now needs to help the kid correct the new problem without sacrificing the lower body action. That's what instructors do. And frankly it isn't that hard. That's where the difference between and experienced instructor versus an armchair "analyst" comes to the fore. Experienced instructors have seen these problems so often they have lots of different cues to help kids get to where they need to be.

[jbooth]

For example, let's suppose some young kid shows up with a dead lower half, all arm swinger. Very common swing flaw among young players. You give the kid the swing cue "turn like heck". The cue then gets the kid to start using his lower body, but maybe he's opening up way early, pulling off the ball. The cue has helped one problem but created another. The instructor now needs to help the kid correct the new problem without sacrificing the lower body action. That's what instructors do.

That's very true, and it's why you can't learn well from a book, or a video, or from reading this board. You need to be in front of a knowledgeable instructor, who can see the result of the first cue, and then use another accordingly.

The new problem may get cured by another cue, or it may need several different cues until one produces the desired result.

A "cue" is just that; by definition it is a word, or a few words that remind you of a whole bunch of details that you previously learned. You can't learn from a cue. You learn a movement and then you attach a cue to it, to help remind you of how to do the movement to which it relates.

You could learn perfectly how to move the hips, and then attach any cue words that you want. I could create a cue that only my student would know what it links to. Once he gets the move down correctly, I could tell him that whenever he does it wrong, I'm going to say "Rumplestilskin" and that would work for him. But, if I come on this board and say, "To use the lower body correctly you need to "Rumplestilskin", nobody would understand what it meant.

[RayR]

You could learn perfectly how to move the hips, and then attach any cue words that you want. I could create a cue that only my student would know what it links to. Once he gets the move down correctly, I could tell him that whenever he does it wrong, I'm going to say "Rumplestilskin" and that would work for him. But, if I come on this board and say, "To use the lower body correctly you need to "Rumplestilskin", nobody would understand what it meant.

How true...

[PhilliesPhan22]

It's an indication a hitter got off the back side. As far as hitting with a full swing against live pitching he's 54 with eye problems but you can be assured when he was drafted in the first round back in the day his swing was pretty good.

Keep in mind this is a stop swing drill pure unload from a static position. Pretty dang quick for those conditions. Add in he's 54. I wasn't in that good a shape when I was young and IN shape.

Ok, that makes sense. And if he is off of he back side then his hip were able to fully rotate, correct?

I will give whoever that is credit for being able to move that well at 54. I honestly thought I was looking at someone in his late 30s.

[Encinitas]

Well it's more than not powering or using the shoulders purposefully to power the swing. Rotate like heck is simply not used.

This all gets back to ground forces or using the middle. If you want to power the swing with Pelvic Loading, and rotating from the middle, you have to "turn like heck" to get the damn barrel around as Steve likes to say.

If you shift out using either Richard description or Yeager's, (using ground forces) and it is proper shift with the back knee getting way ahead of the back foot you are at a good starting point. If the front foot is dead during the stride and the back leg is in charge there comes a point where the front leg braces, stops linear movement and continues the hip turn that was started from the back side. Richard for quite some time has been saying the swing puts the foot down, and Yeager says imagine the back knee turning in and the back of the foot coming up is putting the front heel down. There is never any thought of "rotate like heck".

If you load the back leg and separate the upper body load from the lower body load as you stride, the hips will fire. As Dmac would say the role of the hips is to a) provide power, and b) get out of the way so the hands can do their job.

[CoachB25]

Now we're "My cue is better than your cue." My guy means... Some of this ... I'm going to bypass what I really want to say here.

Look, agendas are screaming. Does anyone really know ANYONE that teaches to spin? Hell son, we don't want to hit the ball, we'll just spin like a sob and ... Does anyone really know anyone that doesn't teach controling the front shoulder? Hell son, if you do it fast enough you can fall on your ... Does anyone not teach toe touch - soft front knee - rigid front knee - soft again? Does anyone teach, now son, when the ball gets here, let's think about how to get those hands there without moving that shoulder?


WHY IS EVERYONE AVOIDING JJA'S EXAMPLE FROM SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH? Has anyone answered my statements about the linkage of muscles from the hips to the shoulders and why THEY CAN'T BE BYPASSED?

Well, when I talked to ... they said ... and so now I'm convinced since I know that they aren't nearly as full of BS as ...

Finally, Steve has mentioned several times what he means when he uses the cue "turn like hell." Should anyone have questions of him, ask. He may or may not answer. That is up to him. I think is strange that numerous posters missed the entire point of Paul Nyman's various posts. In doing so, they also missed out on the essence of what Steve teaches. Paul made several posts that were exceedingly clear. Too bad!

[Kevin G]

WHY IS EVERYONE AVOIDING JJA'S EXAMPLE FROM SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH?

This is classic........ maybe because you don't get to say....

"I just got Coop Derenne's book "The Scientific Approach to Hitting: Research Explores the Most Difficult Skill in Sport ". In general the book is pretty bad, not worth buying at all, ........but there was one graph I found of particular interest:(meaning something I can selectively mine out and use IF it supports my position)

It's the same old story over and over again.

PS- for the record, of course I don't believe in any "bypass"

[Chris O'Leary]

It's his fallacy, you just stated it. The hands don't "bypass" anything. The hips turn the shoulders, the shoulders start the hands, the arms make the hands move the knob to lead the bathead, and the bathead whips into the ball; in THAT sequence.

If the hands bypassed the shoulders, the shoulders wouldn't move.

That's obviously not what happens in a good swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

I spoke with Ron Jackson at length last week about Manny. Ron Jackson was his hitting coach in Boston for 3 or 4 years. What Connor said is accurate with what Manny does. He is very conscious of keeping his front shoulder closed and using his lower half.

This is different than bypassing the shoulders.

Keeping the front shoulder closed longer can help increase separation and thus power. However, the shoulders have to open up at some point (and after the hips have started to open).

[JJA]

Tweenarock,

That's a very unfair post. The reason I think the book is bad has nothing to do with his hitting philosophy which I could are less about. As an aside, Derenne's hitting philosophy is actually more Lau like than Yeager (he believes that pulling the knob to the ball is a very important cue), but again that's irrelevant. I was hoping the book would be a scientific discussion of the physics of the swing, hopefully Adair with more details. He has access to the ASMI lab and I was really hoping for some hard data on the physics of the swing that he got from the lab.

Alas, not much at all. Mostly his hitting philosophy (yes, yet ANOTHER book on hitting) and he has chapters on stuff like nutrition, conditioning and resistance training programs, etc. Hardly anything with hard data like I was hoping. Interesting, he did present some of his own research about how one should do warm ups in the on-deck circle with a bat 2 ounces LIGHTER than what you normally bat with for optimal performance.

Since there was so little lab data, overall I was disappointed. I "mined out" that graph because that's what it is. Hard data, not a bunch of speculative BS that someone types in a post. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that graph. That data is non-denominational. It describes through direct measurement what is happening in Wade Boggs' swing independent of anyone's belief system.

-JJA

[Kevin G]

Tweenarock,

That's a very unfair post. The reason I think the book is bad has nothing to do with his hitting philosophy which I could are less about. As an aside, Derenne's hitting philosophy is actually more Lau like than Yeager (he believes that pulling the knob to the ball is a very important cue), but again that's irrelevant. I was hoping the book would be a scientific discussion of the physics of the swing, hopefully Adair with more details. He has access to the ASMI lab and I was really hoping for some hard data on the physics of the swing that he got from the lab.

Alas, not much at all. Mostly his hitting philosophy (yes, yet ANOTHER book on hitting) and he has chapters on stuff like nutrition, conditioning and resistance training programs, etc. Hardly anything with hard data like I was hoping. Interesting, he did present some of his own research about how one should do warm ups in the on-deck circle with a bat 2 ounces LIGHTER than what you normally bat with for optimal performance.

Since there was so little lab data, overall I was disappointed. I "mined out" that graph because that's what it is. Hard data, not a bunch of speculative BS that someone types in a post. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that graph. That data is non-denominational. It describes through direct measurement what is happening in Wade Boggs' swing independent of anyone's belief system.

-JJA


Fair enough.

Much of my postings are for the lurkers out there , and to get them to think for themselves and not be sucked in by the culture of "the science is clear".

There is nothing in that gragh that speaks to The Bypass Effect that I can tell.

It is simply a plot of anatomical points moving through space.
A gragh of this "richard" character's hitter should show the same thing...
The fact that there is fart tube that is vented out the back shirt sleeve and is used to power the swing and "bypass" the shoulders ....is not addressed in this graph.

[Encinitas]

Now we're "My cue is better than your cue." My guy means... Some of this ... I'm going to bypass what I really want to say here.

Look, agendas are screaming. Does anyone really know ANYONE that teaches to spin? Hell son, we don't want to hit the ball, we'll just spin like a sob and ... Does anyone really know anyone that doesn't teach controling the front shoulder? Hell son, if you do it fast enough you can fall on your ... Does anyone not teach toe touch - soft front knee - rigid front knee - soft again? Does anyone teach, now son, when the ball gets here, let's think about how to get those hands there without moving that shoulder?


WHY IS EVERYONE AVOIDING JJA'S EXAMPLE FROM SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH? Has anyone answered my statements about the linkage of muscles from the hips to the shoulders and why THEY CAN'T BE BYPASSED?



I don't see where this thread is about "my cue is better than your cue". Call Yeager sometime and suggest to him that we are all "pretty close to the same thing", and merely using a few cues differently.

I have stated the Yeager case, which I find quite similar to what Richard's been saying. There should be no conscious thought of turning your shoulders.

[CoachB25]

I don't see where this thread is about "my cue is better than your cue". Call Yeager sometime and suggest to him that we are all "pretty close to the same thing", and merely using a few cues differently.

I have stated the Yeager case, which I find quite similar to what Richard's been saying. There should be no conscious thought of turning your shoulders.


and who does thinki in the middle of a pitch to turn their shoulders?

[Mark H]

Sounds like another case of someone studying what Steve teaches by reading Richard.

[PhilliesPhan22]

I was reading SE's site and looking at his swing. I see a lot of Chase Utley in his swing. Am I way off base with this observation?

[rich]

What the heck happened to this thread men ? Good stuff...I just read all the post then poof ! Hiddengem asked a legitimate question then someone got their Irish up and the guy he asked the question of went into the Mendoza
Protection Program. ???

[dominik]

Of course there's not such a thing as a shoulder bypass. It can't since the hands are connected to the shoulders. But it could be still a good cue which keeps the batter from pulling with his shoulders prematurely and letting the hips pull the soulders through instead.

Maybe it's wrong, but it could be still helpfull as a cue. Very few people can rotate their shoulders and not get their shoulder through, but many pull the shoulders around without using the hips(me for example as you see in my video thread). For those guys it could be a good cue.

[LAball]

Shoulders? Does that meen the upper torso and the turning of the clavical? of the Gleno-humeral joint , controled by by the delts , pecs and lats?

[dominik]

No: It's rotation of the shoulder axis around the head.

[swingbuilder]

Shoulder bypass doesn't mean the shoulders don't turn.

What it does mean is that the shoulders DO NOT power the swing. Or power the turn of the shoulders. Good hitters don't turn the shoulders by way of the shoulders...that would be pulling and more commonly known as spinning:nod:

Also, the hands do bypass the shoulders in a good swing.

Its the shoulders that MUST be along for the ride not the hands.

[Mark H]

Spectacular.

[swingbuilder]

Good to see you have an AHA moment....you need a few!:applaud:

[Mark H]

Swingbuilder my aha moment about you came long before you inexplicably became one of Richard's guys.

[swingbuilder]

Maybe Richard became one of my guys....and a good one at that!

[Mark H]

Swingbuilder I'm embarassed for you.

[swingbuilder]

Mark, you can divert all you want. The bottom line is the shoulders do not power the swing nor do they turn themselves!

[Chris O'Leary]

Mark, you can divert all you want. The bottom line is the shoulders do not power the swing nor do they turn themselves!

I'm not aware of anyone who's ever said that.

[Mark H]

Chris,

No sense encouraging swinngbuilder and really no sense in engaging him in discussion in the afternoon or later. He's a Teacherman guy. Nuff' said.

[LAball]

I wish you guys would say upper torso in stead of shoulders since its one solid unit. The upper torso can be turned by the abdominals or if the abdominals hold in isometric position the pelvis or legs can turn it. Its not brain surgery, but correct anatomical terms would help understanding.

[Mark H]

The upper torso has torsion bar qualities and most people fail to appreciate the range of dynamic movement in terms of degrees the shoulder complex/scaps (forgive me if my terms are not exact, hopefully my meaning is clear) are capable of.

[TDS]

swingbuilder

Mark, you can divert all you want. The bottom line is the shoulders do not power the swing nor do they turn themselves!


Are You saying this from experinece or is this your interpitation of video?
It appears you don't know the difference between unloading the scaps vs turning the spine.

[CoachB25]

Mark, you can divert all you want. The bottom line is the shoulders do not power the swing nor do they turn themselves!


Which would then beg the question, what powers the hands? Do they do it all on their own? Isn't the old argument for years past transposed now with regards to "shoulders" when for years, members on every site known to man have argued that the hands do not have the ability to power themselves.

I feel a tempest coming! Forces unit! HERE WE GO AGAIN! ;-)

[BoardMember]

Which would then beg the question, what powers the hands? Do they do it all on their own? Isn't the old argument for years past transposed now with regards to "shoulders" when for years, members on every site known to man have argued that the hands do not have the ability to power themselves.

I feel a tempest coming! Forces unit! HERE WE GO AGAIN! ;-)

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc340/funnyroadsigns/friday%20signs/feedingmonkeys.jpg

[swingbuilder]

Correct. The hands do however power the barrel by turning it.

TDS, the big muscles of the shoulder are slave to the hips and hands. They (shoulders) are along for the ride.

[TDS]

TDS, the big muscles of the shoulder are slave to the hips and hands. They (shoulders) are along for the ride.
__________________
The Hands and the Hips DRIVE the Swing!

I have always herd that the bigger muscles are to slow which maybe the case, but I don't beleive the muscles around the scap area (shoulder shrug muscles) which are stretching/unstretching are a part of it.