Making progress with 11yo

[Skipper_George]

This first vid was shot about 6 weeks ago.

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=b-drag.flv

These were done today.

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=front-slo.flv

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=side-slo.flv


It looks like he is getting his bat drag under control.
Please let me know what I should work on next.

Any help/comments would be apreciated.

SG

[caseyd123]

things I noticed:

-I think he could be getting better separation of the hands from the hips. As the hips begin to rotate, they should be well ahead of the hands...the separation should begin to form on the stride forward (or in his case, the replacing of the front foot). His hips and hands are moving simultaneously forward.
-I think he could be extending his lead arm more as he loads back
-It seems to me like he's spinning rather than transfering weight to the front foot
-I like his nice load, he just needs to use what he built up in that load and get it to the front foot. He doesn't stride but neither do Mike Sweeney or Jim Edmonds yet they are able to shift their weight backword on their load and then forward at the end of the stride (or in his case, the replacing of his front foot). See he builds up all the force with the load, but then simply keeps it back there when he puts his front foot back down and then just rotates from there.
-I like how his shoulders and his top hand look in general.

Tell ya what, he's got the right idea wearin a Pujols shirt ;-) not much better than Albert to base ur swing off

[Swing Coach]

skip,

is looking very good.....two suggestions:

1. When he loads back, have him go back against that back leg instead of over it. WHen he loads back, his weight should not be able to balance on the back leg..remember..against, not over. His front shoulder should still be down and this will give him some spring action back toward the pitcher when he strides. He needs this "positive move forward" for weight shift that he is not getting.

2. Make sure you both understand how to extend through the ball. The couple frames past contact, he should have his arms extended, bat pointed toward center or left center field. Not doing this will rob him of all power, especially opposite field.
great job

[justthefacts]

Your son has come a long way and made a lot of progress.

I would be very careful (Leary) regarding the following advice:

caseyd123 said:

-I think he could be getting better separation of the hands from the hips. As the hips begin to rotate, they should be well ahead of the hands...the separation should begin to form on the stride forward (or in his case, the replacing of the front foot). His hips and hands are moving simultaneously forward.

For the most part this is bull crap. If you look at the homerun swings of most major-league hitters there is very little separation i.e. at the most one frame on a 30 frame per second VCR. What appears to be separation does occur when a major-league hitter is making an adjustment to an off speech pitch i.e. upper body lags behind the hips. Take a look at the homerun clips of Josh Hamilton ( 500 foot homeruns) there is very little separation between hips and upper body.


-I think he could be extending his lead arm more as he loads back

Yes I think he's rather cramped up and I would suggest elevating the lead elbow a bit more to bring it more in plane with the initiation of rotation of the shoulders.

-It seems to me like he's spinning rather than transfering weight to the front foot

I don't think so. I doubt that most people really understand what spinning is ( They are too fixated on creating too much separation between upper and lower body). If you look at this young player what happens is the hips and upper body initiate rotation in the hips come to stop the upper body continues to swing around this is not spinning. Spinning is when everything (lower and upper body) continue to move into contact and after contact. This is not so with this player.

-I like his nice load, he just needs to use what he built up in that load and get it to the front foot. He doesn't stride but neither do Mike Sweeney or Jim Edmonds yet they are able to shift their weight backword on their load and then forward at the end of the stride (or in his case, the replacing of his front foot). See he builds up all the force with the load, but then simply keeps it back there when he puts his front foot back down and then just rotates from there.

I don't think so. This player has a "teeter totter" type of loading which I do not consider optimal. The loading process is when there is a coiling action of the pelvic region i.e. the winding of the spring as opposed to going backwards to go forwards.

-I like how his shoulders and his top hand look in general.

In comparison to what?

Swing Coach said:

1. When he loads back, have him go back against that back leg instead of over it. WHen he loads back, his weight should not be able to balance on the back leg..remember..against, not over. His front shoulder should still be down and this will give him some spring action back toward the pitcher when he strides. He needs this "positive move forward" for weight shift that he is not getting.

In general I agree ( my comments above).

2. Make sure you both understand how to extend through the ball. The couple frames past contact, he should have his arms extended, bat pointed toward center or left center field. Not doing this will rob him of all power, especially opposite field.
great job

Extension is another fallacy. When players "try" to extend they almost always end up disconnecting.

I really like what I see in your sons swing he's creating a very good "fish hook" into contact (staying inside the ball and allowing the rotation to carry the bat through the ball).

Attempting to get extension can create a contact point out in front of the player which makes him then very vulnerable to offspeed pitches.

The goal of a good swing is to create good hard contact as deep in the zone as possible because this then allows for some adjustments out in front specifically the ability to deal with offspeed pitches.

And as I said attempting to get extension usually results in losing rotational connection to the torso which then creates a long swing and kills bat speed.

What most think it is extension is simply the uncoiling of the "whip" i.e. maintaining connection to the rotation the torso yet allowing the arms to get more extended more often than not this is the final adjustment necessary to hit the pitch.

But this all originates from the ability to for the player to develop significant power when taking the ball deep.

As compared to its earlier clip you've done a heck of a job. It also speaks to how much easier it is to work with young players who don't have a lot of swings especially swings in competition. And that's the real test what does he do (what is his swing look like) when he sees a pitched baseball? my experience has been that the mechanics of hitting a stationary ball ( constraints imposed by a stationary ball) are oftentimes totally different than the mechanics of hitting a moving ball ( different constraints).

[LClifton]

Edmonds shift / shift.
Into the inside of the back leg into the inside of the front leg.
48109
Of course I'm not suggesting this young hitter will do it just like this.
Just a reference clip for you.
I like what I see.

One of the comments "staying inside the ball" is a good one.
Just one piece of the swing--- but many kids in an attempt to generate power or the feeling of power come out then around,,,this little guy does not.

That initial path of the knob is quite good, IMO, allowing him to get the "business end" of the bat where it needs to be,,quickly.

[jbooth]

"CaseyD123 said; I think he could be getting better separation of the hands from the hips. As the hips begin to rotate, they should be well ahead of the hands...the separation should begin to form on the stride forward (or in his case, the replacing of the front foot). His hips and hands are moving simultaneously forward."

For the most part this is bull crap. If you look at the homerun swings of most major-league hitters there is very little separation i.e. at the most one frame on a 30 frame per second VCR.

It's not bullcrap, he's absolutely correct. Your problem is; you don't know what separation is.

It's not what you can see in video or measure in time, it's simply a movement sequence that gets the external oblique stretched before the hands move toward the ball. Depending on how flexible the hitter is, will determine whether you can see it or not. It's simply the old saying, "keep the front shoulder in, while you start the hips." When you do that, the external oblique will stretch and start to pull the shoulders into rotation, then it contracts and accelerates the upper body. If you don't get separation (stretch the oblique), you don't get the additional acceleration. Without separation, the clavicle moves at the same speed as the pelvis, being driven just from the legs, instead of accelerating from getting separation and stretch in the oblique. When you get separation, the hips whip the shoulders around. When you don't, they just move with the hips.

From what I have read from you in the past; you seem to think that separation is counter-rotation, and it is not. And, you stated above that you don't see it. Well, it's hard to see the stretch of the oblique, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You can clearly see Edmonds' front hip move ahead of the front shoulder, and stretch the front oblique. THAT is separation.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/edmonds3.gif

I deleted 4 frames between the left and right images below. Clearly he is moving the hips before the shoulders, ie. "getting separation"

http://firstpickclub.com/images/edmondssep1.jpg

[jbooth]

Edmonds shift / shift.
Into the inside of the back leg into the inside of the front leg.



Yes, and he "cocks" or turns the front hip in with the shift into the back leg, and it starts to turn out with the shift into the front leg, while holding the shoulders in place, winding the rubber band, creating separation.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/edmondssep1.jpg

[hiddengem]

This first vid was shot about 6 weeks ago.

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=b-drag.flv

These were done today.

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=front-slo.flv

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/?action=view&current=side-slo.flv


It looks like he is getting his bat drag under control.
Please let me know what I should work on next.

Any help/comments would be apreciated.

SG


IMO, and I think the opinion shared of many, your sons swing is going the wrong way. He was on his way to a nice looking swing in the begining. In the second link you provided(the front shot), it looks like he is now attempting to get his upperbody going before his lower.(A sign to me that he is trying to turn from the middle) I'm not sure who is telling you to do this or if this is happening naturally, but that needs to be cleaned up. Nyman(Just the Facts) clearly doesn't seem to understand the separation or stretch that every good hitter creates.

Watch Bonds lower half here..and you tell me if his separation is a "setup" thing or if he lower half is starting to rotate way ahead of the upper half. Whatever you do, don't buy into the "rotate from the middle" stuff. Its separation and stretch that gets you in a position to fire at the ball.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bondsoverhead.gif
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/BarryTed.gif

P.S I'm sure you are going to get some Personal Messages telling you that we are all full of crap, just use your head when making your decision on which way to go.

[LClifton]

At foot plant (or near it) in the first clip take a look at his lead arm compare to the second set of clips.
In the first clip take a look at the "sway" ---is it more or less than the 2nd set of clips?
The critical angle of the rear knee / leg---compare the clips. Which one is positionally better to move out?

Working on the bat drag is good. Eliminating it by eliminating an element like lead arm extension (part of the upper body's load) or whatever term you use to describe what is occuring in the first clip--- it is not the way to accomplish it.
Why?
Because he is now trying to derive power by swaying to somehow "load up."

But, that said, when you work on one area other areas can go south.
Frankly, it happens to me. Then I look at the "improved" clips and say "dang it we had some pretty good things happening before.
I would allow this young man to load similar to the first clip and keep a watchful eye on the rear arm to assist with curing the drag.

I still like what I see overall.
Blending elements from the first and the second set of clips would be good.

[caseyd123]

IMO, and I think the opinion shared of many, your sons swing is going the wrong way. He was on his way to a nice looking swing in the begining. In the second link you provided(the front shot), it looks like he is now attempting to get his upperbody going before his lower.(A sign to me that he is trying to turn from the middle) I'm not sure who is telling you to do this or if this is happening naturally, but that needs to be cleaned up. Nyman(Just the Facts) clearly doesn't seem to understand the separation or stretch that every good hitter creates.

Watch Bonds lower half here..and you tell me if his separation is a "setup" thing or if he lower half is starting to rotate way ahead of the upper half. Whatever you do, don't by into the "rotate from the middle" stuff. Its separation and stretch that gets you in a position to fire at the ball.

http://www.hittingillustrated.com/library/Bondsoverhead.gif
http://www.teachersbilliards.com/hitzone/BarryTed.gif

P.S I'm sure you are going to get some Personal Messages telling you that we are all full of crap, just use your head when making your decision on which way to go.

that was something i meant to say too HG, i thought the first clip looked better because he had more lead arm extenstion and hip/hand separation.

i still love the fact that this little man is out there workin on his swing. (love the pujols shirt and the shoeless joe we have on our hands lol)

[Encinitas]

Lot of good things being said a good warning about not straying far from the first clip.

I am not sold on that extremely bent lead arm I see in clip 3. While you might be fixing bat drag, you could do so at the risk of sacrificing a good load. Also a good cue I heard recently from HG (through Yeager) was to keep the bicep of the lead arm close to or touching the pect. I see a really big gap between your son's lead arm and his upper chest. This isn't something I can tell you how to easily fix, but I'll tell you this... Over the years I've tried more things to try and fix bat drag and the one thing that seems to help more than anything is RESIST the forward movement with the top hand. Pushing the lead arm back to get it more straight will lead to drag. Resist with the top hand as the body shifts forward and at the right time the shoulder will load. Your ideal shoulder load occurs as the back hip is firing as we see here with Kent from the back and side:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent090907_back.gifhttp://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent090907_side2.gif

Another clip I made and really like was of Rowand.. stare at his top hand and see how much stronger his back side looks:
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_9_17_side.gif

[BoardMember]

Great clips Enc.........:thumbsup:

Lot of good things being said a good warning about not straying far from the first clip.

I am not sold on that extremely bent lead arm I see in clip 3. While you might be fixing bat drag, you could do so at the risk of sacrificing a good load. Also a good cue I heard recently from HG (through Yeager) was to keep the bicep of the lead arm close to or touching the pect. I see a really big gap between your son's lead arm and his upper chest. This isn't something I can tell you how to easily fix, but I'll tell you this... Over the years I've tried more things to try and fix bat drag and the one thing that seems to help more than anything is RESIST the forward movement with the top hand. Pushing the lead arm back to get it more straight will lead to drag. Resist with the top hand as the body shifts forward and at the right time the shoulder will load. Your ideal shoulder load occurs as the back hip is firing as we see here with Kent from the back and side:

http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent090907_back.gifhttp://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/kent090907_side2.gif

Another clip I made and really like was of Rowand.. stare at his top hand and see how much stronger his back side looks:
http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/rowand_9_17_side.gif

[jbooth]

I am not sold on that extremely bent lead arm I see in clip 3. While you might be fixing bat drag, you could do so at the risk of sacrificing a good load. Also a good cue I heard recently from HG (through Yeager) was to keep the bicep of the lead arm close to or touching the pect. I see a really big gap between your son's lead arm and his upper chest.

Look at how Kent separates his hands from his foot, and how the front hip opens while the front shoulder stays in and stretches the front external oblique.

Then the shoulder moves to catch up to the hip, and pulls the knob into the swing, and then the hands accelerate away from the shoulder.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/kent090907sep.gif

[Skipper_George]

First of all I want to say thanks for all the comments.

I think that most of you are concerned with the torque/spring/rubberband in which the shoulder stays back as the hips first open up at heel plant.
Believe me I'm aware of this also as I go frame by frame thru the different vids I have he seems to a have less (sometimes none) than when he was dragging the bat. My next step is to work on this stride, more of the one like Edmonds has and also working on the torque/spring/rubberband effect.
I think Epstein’s numbers drill will help with this.

Here's a clip of him keeping the back elbow up. For him, if he keeps the elbow up his hands don't go back as far and helps with back drag. He still has a problem of showing his back to the imaginary pitcher too much when hitting a stationary ball; we are working on that also.

http://s345.photobucket.com/albums/p390/skipper_george/cm_swings/?action=view&current=side-2-slo.flv


I think the elimination of bat drag is a big step in the right direction. When he drags the bat he wouldn’t make contact until his belly button was facing the 3rd baseline and he would never hit the ball to left field. He had major problems hitting the inside pitch because his elbow would be in the way when he tried to tighten up (hands rotating closer to body) his swing.

I'm going to throw him BP tomorrow and I’ll get some vids.
Thanks again.
SG

[justthefacts]

.... but then again....

Jim Booth said:

It's not bullcrap, he's absolutely correct. Your problem is; you don't know what separation is.

Maybe..... then again maybe not.

[QUOTE]It's not what you can see in video or measure in time, it's simply a movement sequence that gets the external oblique stretched before the hands move toward the ball.

I wish I had your x-ray vision ability to see below the skin and of the 600 plus muscle groups in the body know exactly which ones are involved in your definition of "separation". ALL and I repeat ALL the bodies muscle groups are involved in any movement we make. To single out one particular muscle group and say this is the "definition" of separation is absurd my opinion.

http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/journey/images/extobliquesm.jpg

"External Obliques the opposite of the internal obliques, they course downward and inward, largest and strongest abdominal muscles. They are on the surface and begin at ribs 5 to 12 and connect to the linea semilunaris. [In this image you can see them represented by black arrows. Also note the aponeurosis covering the rectus abdominalis.

And since the insertion (upper rib cage) and termination point (top of the pelvis) would require the hips to turn or be offset with respect to the upper body I don't see how separation as YOU DEFINE IT ("external oblique stretched") can occur unless there is a displacement/differential of the hips (pelvis) and upper body (rib cage).

Depending on how flexible the hitter is, will determine whether you can see it or not.

As I said I don't have your same x-ray vision.

It's simply the old saying, "keep the front shoulder in, while you start the hips." When you do that, the external oblique will stretch and start to pull the shoulders into rotation, then it contracts and accelerates the upper body.

Not sure who "adheres to/advocates" the "old saying".

If you don't get separation (stretch the oblique), you don't get the additional acceleration. Without separation, the clavicle moves at the same speed as the pelvis, being driven just from the legs, instead of accelerating from getting separation and stretch in the oblique. When you get separation, the hips whip the shoulders around. When you don't, they just move with the hips.

This is a little closer to what I consider reality. Reality being what most researchers defined as the kinetic chain or kinetic sequence. The kinetic chain/kinetic sequence being the creation of momentum starting in the proximal segments and then proceeding to transfer and be enhanced as it travels to the distal segments.

And the way that most of "us" will really try to understand the biomechanics of movement try to determine/measure separation is to determine how much rotation of the hips occur before initiation of rotation of the upper torso (shoulders).

Initiation of the hip rotation (rotation the pelvis) happens when the pelvis action rotates i.e. you can see the back hip joint moving in the direction of the front hip joint.

The problem with most of these discussions regarding separation there is far too much emphasis on separation is defined by the hips moving (rotating) ahead of the upper body. If you look at "real" hitters most show only a small amount of separation (hips starting to rotate before shoulders). The clip of Edmonds is one of the best examples of this.

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/xxxx4.gif

From what I have read from you in the past; you seem to think that separation is counter-rotation, and it is not.

Jim you're either getting senile, or you haven't really read (comprehended) anything I posted four years. Or you are simply being pigheaded In attempting to show how much you know by showing how much you don't know. I have lobbied against counter rotation since day one. I was the one who demonstrated/explained that it's not about counter rotation it's about scapula loading which to some appears to look like counter rotation.

And, you stated above that you don't see it. Well, it's hard to see the stretch of the oblique, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You're correct Jim I don't have your x-ray vision. I prefer to go by the biomechanical definition of separation as defined by the kinetic sequence.

You can clearly see Edmonds' front hip move ahead of the front shoulder, and stretch the front oblique. THAT is separation.

What I see is Edmonds opening up the front knee with very little or any no hip rotation (active rotational displacement with respect to the upper body). For most young players this is the kiss of death in that it predisposes them of opening up too soon and then forcing them to choose their hands (disconnect) to hit the baseball.

Attempting to extrapolate from major-league players swing to that of a 10 or 11-year-old learning how to use his/her body is comparing apples to oranges in terms of what young players need to do to develop a solid rotational foundation as opposed to what major-league players are able to do with their body.

Sometimes I wonder if any you and others who post "regularly" have really worked with young players with some of the ridiculous comments that I see here.

Taking another look at the above clip of Edmonds.

First Edmonds loads:

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/edload2a.gif

Edmonds opens up the front knee with very little if any rotational hip movement. Opening front knee DOES NOT stretch the external oblique Because it does not create a displacement differential in the transverse horizontal plane between the pelvis and the rib cage.

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/xxxx1.gif

What Edmonds HAS DONE is to create a stretch of the external oblique in his initial set up (look at the differential between his upper and lower body that is part of this set up/stance).

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/edswing1a.gif

And then when he is made the final decision to swing rotation of the hips (back hip joint moving toward the front) and the upper body occur almost simultaneously.

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/edswing2a.gif

And as the hips come to a stop as the reach their range of motion the upper body continues to rotate because of the separation that was created at set up.

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/edswing3a.gif

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/xxxx4.gif

I just don't understand how someone can spend so much time promoting themselves as knowledgeable AND is not able to see what is right in front of their eyes.

HG said

Nyman(Just the Facts) clearly doesn't seem to understand the separation or stretch that every good hitter creates.

As I tried to explain above I doubt that HG or anyone else who uses the bonds clip as an example of what ALL players do have even the remotest clue as to what the swing is all about.

For those who are interested I uploaded the first instructional that I created for David to give you some idea of how I tried to apply PCRW and help David. Obviously it really didn't help David, but maybe more objective viewers might find it a value.

The file can be downloaded from the following location:

HG Info 1 (http://www.setpro.com/demo/HG1Setup.exe)

File size is approximately 40 MB. Once you have downloaded to a folder simply run the program it will walk you through the setup/installation.

This is a limited use demonstration file and is representative of how I create instructional information on how the body swings and throws.

As I have said too many times before we must always remember that we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

[Mark H]

Look at how Kent separates his hands from his foot, and how the front hip opens while the front shoulder stays in...

Bagwell excepted it seems to me most of the separation people refer to happens in the load/momentum development/stride rather than as part of the unload. Perhaps this is the source of the disagreement here?

[jbooth]

...
I wish I had your x-ray vision ability to see below the skin and of the 600 plus muscle groups in the body know exactly which ones are involved in your definition of "separation". ALL and I repeat ALL the bodies muscle groups are involved in any movement we make. To single out one particular muscle group and say this is the "definition" of separation is absurd my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion.

And since the insertion (upper rib cage) and termination point (top of the pelvis) would require the hips to turn or be offset with respect to the upper body I don't see how separation as YOU DEFINE IT ("external oblique stretched") can occur unless there is a displacement/differential of the hips (pelvis) and upper body (rib cage).

That's exactly what happens. The pelvis turns first.

As I said I don't have your same x-ray vision.

Don't need it. But, as you are fond of saying, "we can only see what we want to see." And, you don't seem to want to see this.

Not sure who "adheres to/advocates" the "old saying".

Certainly not you. You have your own invented vocabulary.

The problem with most of these discussions regarding separation there is far too much emphasis on separation as defined by the hips moving (rotating) ahead of the upper body. If you look at "real" hitters most show only a small amount of separation (hips starting to rotate before shoulders). The clip of Edmonds is one of the best examples of this.

Ted Williams considered the hips moving ahead of the upper body as THE most important thing. I think I'll go with him over you. And, if you think Edmonds only has a small amount of separation, then I think your eyes are bad.

Jim you're either getting senile, or you haven't really read (comprehended) anything I posted for years.

Maybe, but I think it is apparent that many people seem to be unable to comprehend anything you say. IMO, you're a poor communicator.

You're correct Jim I don't have your x-ray vision. I prefer to go by the biomechanical definition of separation as defined by the kinetic sequence.

Funny, that's what I base my conclusions upon.

Sometimes I wonder if any you and others who post "regularly" have really worked with young players with some of the ridiculous comments that I see here.

Oh, I've worked with PLENTY of 12 and under players. And, many have gone from not being able to hit much past the shortstop, to hitting it over the fence.

What Edmonds HAS DONE is to create a stretch of the external oblique in his initial set up (look at the differential between his upper and lower body that is part of this set up/stance).


The shoulders and hips are displaced, but there is no stretch yet.

And then when he has made the final decision to swing rotation of the hips (back hip joint moving toward the front) and the upper body occur almost simultaneously.

Key word "almost." I never said separation was huge distance or time. But, there is a stretch that occurs later than you believe, and a hitter needs to make sure it happens by turning the hips first. Again, I'll defer to Ted Williams.

And as the hips come to a stop as they reach their range of motion the upper body continues to rotate because of the separation that was created at set up.

Yes, there is some separation at setup, but full separation is achieved by starting the hips ahead of the shoulders.

I just don't understand how someone can spend so much time promoting themselves as knowledgeable AND is not able to see what is right in front of their eyes.


Wow, that's exactly what I think about you.:eek:

As I have said too many times before we must always remember that we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

Yep, and I'm amazed at what you see.

I see additional hip displacement from the shoulder during the stride and AFTER setup, in all these hitters.

http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm

[BoardMember]

What is "setup to swing"?

In the following clips being discussed, this is my minds "eye" of when set up occurs IE "Opening to prepare to deliver the blow".

IMO, opening is NOT actively "rotating the hips".

It is simply that. Opening the bottom, (as a golfer does when he "flairs the front foot) to deliver the bat quickly and efficiently.

In both of these clips, there is VERY LITTLE angular displacement of the hips before the torso/shoulders ACTUALLY fire:

http://i35.tinypic.com/126bal0.gifhttp://i36.tinypic.com/23wlduw.gif

[jbooth]

What is "setup to swing"?

In the following clips being discussed, this is my minds "eye" of when set up occurs IE "Opening to prepare to deliver the blow".

IMO, opening is NOT actively "rotating the hips".

It is simply that. Opening the bottom, (as a golfer does when he "flairs the front foot) to deliver the bat quickly and efficiently.

In both of these clips, there is VERY LITTLE angular displacement of the hips before the torso/shoulders ACTUALLY fire:

http://i35.tinypic.com/126bal0.gifhttp://i36.tinypic.com/23wlduw.gif

The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?

Are these guys' hips turning before the shoulders, or simultaneously?

http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm

[LClifton]

A different view shows the hip / shoulder relationship better.
One's definition of a little and a lot---- comes into play.
I tried to make the upper line in this clip as consistent as I could.
The lower line I moved along with the movement of the belt loop.
48158

[jbooth]

A different view shows the hip / shoulder relationship better.
One's definition of a little and a lot---- comes into play.
I tried to make the upper line in this clip as consistent as I could.
The lower line I moved along with the movement of the belt loop.
48158

Note how far the hips move before the shoulder moves off the green line.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/texhips2.gif

[BoardMember]

The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?

Are these guys' hips turning before the shoulders, or simultaneously?

http://firstpickclub.com/separation.htm

Of course they aren't Jim. I think you're missing my point.

My point was:

Are we TRYING to rotate the hips as the first move into foot plant? Or are the hips opening "naturally" as a result of the "reach" of the front foot as it opens and begins clearing the bottom side for whole body rotation.

I believe these clips, and my experience, show the latter.

IF you stride into opening the front foot, with the front shoulder staying closed, and do NOT conciously try to turn the hips, the action matches the video IMO.

I think Pauls point was exactly that. No one is rotating the hips into foot plant conciously............

Someone like Pujols for example, who, because of his no stide swing, cocks the front side excessively inward to assist in transfer.

In the following clip, frozen at "weighted foot plant", do you believe he is conciously rotating his hips to this point?

Or do they just open as a result of opening the front leg to clear the front side for SIMALTANEOUS rotation of his hips and shoulders into contact.

Take a close look:

http://i35.tinypic.com/241ms8h.gif

The point is, I believe HIPS BEFORE HANDS may be happening, BUT NOT because of a concious effort to start the hips rotating early.

This IMO, is a "bandaid emulation of video" that leads to disconnection of the kinetic linkage.......

I believe Pauls point, and I must say I agree, is that the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........

I would NEVER tell a hitter to ROTATE THE HIPS into foot plant.......

Open the bottom to to clear it for launch YES........

There is HUGE difference IMO............

http://i35.tinypic.com/126bal0.gifhttp://i36.tinypic.com/23wlduw.gif

[jbooth]

Of course they aren't Jim. I think you're missing my point.

My point was:

Are we TRYING to rotate the hips as the first move into foot plant? Or are the hips opening "naturally" as a result of the "reach" of the front foot as it opens and begins clearing the bottom side for whole body rotation.

I believe these clips, and my experience, show the latter.

IF you stride into opening the front foot, with the front shoulder staying closed, and do NOT conciously try to turn the hips, the action matches the video IMO.

I think Pauls point was exactly that. No one is rotating the hips into foot plant conciously............

Someone like Pujols for example, who, because of his no stide swing, cocks the front side excessively inward to assist in transfer.

In the following clip, frozen at "weighted foot plant", do you believe he is conciously rotating his hips to this point?

Or do they just open as a result of opening the front leg to clear the front side for SIMALTANEOUS rotation of his hips and shoulders into contact.

Take a close look:

http://i35.tinypic.com/241ms8h.gif

The point is, I believe HIPS BEFORE HANDS may be happening, BUT NOT because of a concious effort to start the hips rotating early.

This IMO, is a "bandaid emulation of video" that leads to disconnection of the kinetic linkage.......

I believe Pauls point, and I must say I agree, is that the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........

I would NEVER tell a hitter to ROTATE THE HIPS into foot plant.......

Open the bottom to to clear it for launch YES........

There is HUGE difference IMO............

http://i35.tinypic.com/126bal0.gifhttp://i36.tinypic.com/23wlduw.gif

I totally disagree.

[TDS]

I tested this with my swing mate and noticed when I attempted to clear the front hip (not rotate) and then fire the shoulders I gained 5mph on my swing.

[justthefacts]

Jbooth said

The debate isn't about whether it's a LITTLE or a LOT. The hip moves before the shoulders. Do you disagree with THAT?

the debate should be my opinion about why the hips NEED to move before the shoulders?

And the amount of movement is important because it does help explain the why players exhibit greater hip movement before the upper torso is engaged at certain times and at certain times they do not.

What I find comical is when these "debates" a reduced to "how much" as opposed to "why".

[BoardMember]

I totally disagree.

And that's ok Jim.

Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.

Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:

http://i35.tinypic.com/9t041h.gifhttp://i35.tinypic.com/20ztfkg.gif

[joof]

My short version of the role of unloading the “pelvic cock” --

IMO the "hips move before the shoulders" in a programmed fashion and in doing so generate momentum for transfer via the kinetic chain. This represents the"initial conditions of a ballistic sequence", while in addition generate, via "twisting action" of the torso, the alignment of the shoulders and top arm positioning for reversal of the scapulas (movement of bat in swing plane) on pitches middle to in or for the requisite extension for pitches away. On pitches middle to in the optimum "hooking" action is produced. On pitches away a combination of scapula reversal and arm extension is executed with degradation of the optimum hooking action.



joof

[BoardMember]

Joof, while I understand, this certainly isn't what you'd tell the 12 year old and his dad about hitting........

My short version of the role of unloading the “pelvic cock” --

IMO the "hips move before the shoulders" in a programmed fashion and in doing so generate momentum for transfer via the kinetic chain. This represents the"initial conditions of a ballistic sequence", while in addition generate, via "twisting action" of the torso, the alignment of the shoulders and top arm positioning for reversal of the scapulas (movement of bat in swing plane) on pitches middle to in or for the requisite extension for pitches away. On pitches middle to in the optimum "hooking" action is produced. On pitches away a combination of scapula reversal and arm extension is executed with degradation of the optimum hooking action.

joof

Cock the front hip and open the front foot 20-30 degrees into plant is a cue that is well understood and easily executed by any age hitter and his father working with his kid.......

[LClifton]

the rubberband is winding during the initial load, that does NOT include conciously turning the hips to wind it...........
This young lady came to me for the first time and when I asked what they were working on --the answer was turning the hips. This is my view of what you get when they conciously turn the hips, out of sequence.
In order to accomplish conscious turning of the hips she;
1. Squished the bug
2. Short cut the load
3. And did, in fact, turn her hips.
48260

Understanding there were several things wrong here this is a pretty good representation of what happens when kids turn the hips as a conscious thought, as opposed to turning their hips timely, powerfully, ie. correctly.

Paul says,
The debate gets comical when relegated to "how much". I really don't pay attention to how much because the degree varies by the
1. type of hitter,
2. to a degree, their flexibility
3. their timing on that pitch,
And I believe that the hips turn reactively. Not that you can't train hitters to rotate their hips better, but that's a different issue.

That said, I believe there is a base, a platform, that is established APPROACHING and into toe touch and I believe this is what Board member is saying. (better than me)
This base is set more UNconsciously--- due to the shift / momentum transfer. It is more reactive. IMO.

If there is no shift-- there is not much need to establish a "base approaching toe touch" nor can you --- because you are simply not in a position to do so.. So they, in general Squish the bug and swing with the arms because that is basically all that is left following a poor shift.

[JJA]

Boardmember,

Very nice post. Nice cue, easy to understand, very nice results as well.

[joof]

BM

Joof, while I understand, this certainly isn't what you'd tell the 12 year old and his dad about hitting........


I do agree. It may take " five different ways" of describing this overall concept and in addition well planned directed instructional exercises and that still may not fulfill our goal of promoting learning. At this point it represents my position(best level of understanding) on the learning curve.

Am still listening and "turning over rocks".


joof

[BoardMember]

Understanding there were several things wrong here this is a pretty good representation of what happens when kids turn the hips as a conscious thought.........

Totally agree.....:thumbsup:

[azmatsfan]

http://www.setpro.com/2008/images/edswing1a.gif

And then when he is made the final decision to swing rotation of the hips (back hip joint moving toward the front) and the upper body occur almost simultaneously.


I just don't understand how someone can spend so much time promoting themselves as knowledgeable AND is not able to see what is right in front of their eyes.


When I look at this clip I see the hips definitely leading the shoulders. I see a classic example of separation. The rotation of the hips and shoulders certainly isn't simultaneous.

[Mark H]

Reading through this thread it seems to me the questions are why, when and how, not whether.

[RayR]

When I look at this clip I see the hips definitely leading the shoulders. I see a classic example of separation. The rotation of the hips and shoulders certainly isn't simultaneous.

Of course, they are not simultaneous, but why? That is what is being debated, I think????

Anyway, it has been said and I agree that it is all about the loading (or cocking).

You cannot unload what you haven't loaded...

[azmatsfan]

Of course, they are not simultaneous, but why? That is what is being debated, I think????

Anyway, it has been said and I agree that it is all about the loading (or cocking).

You cannot unload what you haven't loaded...

Certainly loading gets the body ready to shift its weight. And it's the weight shift that powers the rotation. Look at both clips of the softball players. As soon as the weight shift begins, so does the hip rotation. This rotation will occur whether the foot is at 30 degrees or not.

[TDS]

Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:

BM this is what I did in my swing mate test. When I didn't do this it felt like I could not sync body segments. I believe this needs to be done before decision time. IMO this action is part of the load not unload.

[jbooth]

And that's ok Jim.

Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.

Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:

http://i35.tinypic.com/9t041h.gifhttp://i35.tinypic.com/20ztfkg.gif

You've changed the subject. The debate isn't about how to teach separation, or how much you get. There IS separation, and the hips move before the shoulders. The debate started when I responded to the following statement made by JustTheFacts;

For the most part this is bull crap. If you look at the homerun swings of most major-league hitters there is very little separation i.e. at the most one frame on a 30 frame per second VCR. What appears to be separation does occur when a major-league hitter is making an adjustment to an off speech pitch i.e. upper body lags behind the hips. Take a look at the homerun clips of Josh Hamilton ( 500 foot homeruns) there is very little separation between hips and upper body.

He sees very little separation, and I see a lot;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/hamiltonhrderby2.gif

[BoardMember]

BM this is what I did in my swing mate test. When I didn't do this it felt like I could not sync body segments. I believe this needs to be done before decision time. IMO this action is part of the load not unload.

Correct!

I'll bet if you TRIED to actively rotate your hips into foot plant you'd really be screwed up...........:dance

It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating AND what Jim is agreeing to. I know Jim works with students as well, so I'm sure what he says to them works for him.

I just don't feel it happens that way........

IMO, "Clearing the hips" to fire the ENTIRE swing is much different then actively rotating the hips into foot plant, and sends a completely different message.

The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact.........

[jbooth]

Correct!

I'll bet if you TRIED to actively rotate your hips into foot plant you'd really be screwed up...........:dance

It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating AND what Jim is agreeing to. I know Jim works with students as well, so I'm sure what he says to them works for him.

I just don't feel it happens that way........

IMO, "Clearing the hips" to fire the ENTIRE swing is much different then actively rotating the hips into foot plant, and sends a completely different message.

The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact.........

Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.

For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/hamiltonhrderby3.gif

[BoardMember]

Ah Jim, your probably right. It was a natural progression in my head I guess. No harm intended.

Anyway, MY NEW POINT IS...:dance, I don't believe separation is actively being achieved BECAUSE of concious SEPARATE rotation of the hips from the shoulders "before or at" launch.

I think separation happens during the load, as the shoulders are held back/hands are loaded back/scaps are pinched, OR WHATEVER the hell you do during the positive move into foot plant AND THE FRONT FOOT OPENS TO A DEGREE TO CLEAR THE HIPS......

From there, AT foot plant, EVERYTHING GOES HARD AS HELL..........(this may be the miss-reference to "TURN LIKE HELL" that certain people love to use against Steve.

Once this action begins, stuff just happens..........:)

You've changed the subject. The debate isn't about how to teach separation, or how much you get. There IS separation, and the hips move before the shoulders. The debate started when I responded to the following statement made by JustTheFacts;



He sees very little separation, and I see a lot;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/hamiltonhrderby2.gif

[BoardMember]

Sorry Jim, I don't believe the "weighted foot plant" frame you see. I wish you included the feet in your clip...........

Please have another look at your high speed .mpg of Hamilton. I just did.

Weighted foot plant WHEN THE HEAL HITS THE ROAD, is shown in the first few frames of your clip. Go look at it and tell me IF EVERYTHING is rotating together at HEAL PLANT.

While they may not be "ALIGNED", at this point, they are GOING TOGETHER........Check it out.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/HamiltonHRDerby.mpg

When I get home, I'll look at my copy of the clip you posted above, where it show's foot plant, and see If I agree or disagree with your assesment.

Until then......It's fun to discuss stuff with you because there's no "added BS value" of aggenda's.........

Thx!

P.S. As an aside, I don't consider "weighted foot plant" as "when the big toe first touches the ground. I consider "weighted foot plant" as when the front leg bears the weight of the shift, which isn't until the heal is down............

Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.

For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/hamiltonhrderby3.gif

[jbooth]

And that's ok Jim.

Here are 2 hitters with totally different loading patterns. Neither one was trained to "rotate the hips" into plant.

Both were trained to cock the front hip, and open the front foot approx. 30 degrees to clear the hip into "weighted plant", when simataneous rotation begins:

http://i35.tinypic.com/9t041h.gifhttp://i35.tinypic.com/20ztfkg.gif

Well, they're both doing what I think is correct, so however you want to instruct them to do that, I guess, is an individual thing.

[joof]

Got to to be wary of that extrapolated data!! Ha!

Sorry Jim, I don't believe the "weighted foot plant" frame you see. I wish you included the feet in your clip...........


Excellent point!!

I think separation happens during the load, as the shoulders are held back/hands are loaded back/scaps are pinched, OR WHATEVER the hell you do during the positive move into foot plant AND THE FRONT FOOT OPENS TO A DEGREE TO CLEAR THE HIPS......


In our discussions Fpdad(dave s) for the longest has described the unload of the "pelvic cock" as generating a loading of the torso up through the shoulders.

Been a really good thread relating to the "hips ahead of the shoulders" concept.


joof

[Encinitas]

It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating AND what Jim is agreeing to. I know Jim works with students as well, so I'm sure what he says to them works for him.

I just don't feel it happens that way........



No I think to the contrary Yeager "expects it happen" more out of correct weight shift during the stride. If the front heel is not yet weighted, and the back of the foot is coming up, then you are in good shape i.e. the front side block has not happened before the backside push completed. Typically then the rear knee has gotten way out in front of the back foot (ground forces :rofl: :rofl:), such that the back knee is "putting the foot down". At that point the hips are started, and separation has started, and ideally your hands are loading away at this point in time which yields a little more separation.

From reading HG and Retkag both of who recently worked directly with him, I am not sure they spent much time on how hard or purposefully to turn the hips. Granted if you watch his video on what happens in the MLB swing you'll see the segmentation is there, but I'd side a little closer to BM in the case that "trying to turn the hips" is not the thought.

[LClifton]

I'll bet if you TRIED to actively rotate your hips into foot plant you'd really be screwed up...........
True.
It seems to me this IS what Yeager (based on Yeager advocates here) is advocating
It isn't what he advocates.

[justthefacts]

jbooth said

Look at frames 4 thru 8. Frame 4 is when his foot gets weighted. The hips turn while the shoulders are still, in frames 5 and 6.

For two frames after the front foot is weighted the hips turn ahead of the shoulders.

If you look closely you'll see the head of the bat it begins to rotate in going from frame five to frame six. At most there is a very small amount of hip rotation that precedes what some would perceive as shoulder rotation.

But in my opinion this whole discussion is simply a smokescreen skirting around the real issue as to exactly what is being accomplished by this very small amount hip movement prior to when the shoulders start to follow and again it is my contention that the head of the bat moving is the initiation of upper body rotation for high-level players (players that have minimal bat drag and minimal bat lag).

I ask again the questio; exactly what wondrous advantage is there to starting the hips FRACTIONALLY ahead of the shoulders (if indeed that is what is happening).

This whole issue of hips leading the way is in my opinion a joke with respect to really understanding what starting hips early is "allegedly" achieving.

According to Epstein is greater power (rubberbanding). But Epstein advocates counter rotation of the upper body i.e. an extreme amount of differential between hips and shoulders which Hamilton does not exhibit as you hitting 500 foot plus home runs.

So it's not about home run power.

Also counter rotating upper body or creating a large differential between upper body will slow the swing down in terms of how quickly the hitter can get the bat to the ball, IE has the potential to force the player to initiate their swing movement earlier giving them less time to make decisions regarding the flight of the ball.

And then we have the spinning issue which no one has really defined in terms of what the miniscule amount of hip rotation preceding upper body rotation of Hamilton supposedly prevents (prevents spinning).

And last but not least if I'm not mistaken it wasn't hip rotation that HG and retkag were having a problem with which caused them to seek out Yaeger's help.

And it is still undefined/not clear exactly what Yaeger did for either HG and retkag other than they both said that in their opinion he helped them and he was able to explain things better than anyone else whatever that means.

We are chasing a lot of red herrings as well as agendas in these discussions, my not so humble opinion.

[BoardMember]

True.

It isn't what he advocates.

Thx Loren. I'm always careful to say that "what I perceive he's teaching is, is ONLY from my understandings of his advocates say here".

They, knowing the stuff, probably leave out a lot of the little stuff, and it can become missunderstood easily.

They are quick to correct my missunderstandings, which I don't mind.......

Paul, I'm glad we're keeping you entertained. We're certainly keeping ourselves entertained!.............:dance

[jbooth]

P.S. As an aside, I don't consider "weighted foot plant" as "when the big toe first touches the ground. I consider "weighted foot plant" as when the front leg bears the weight of the shift, which isn't until the heal is down............

That's my definition also. And, in that case he is rotating the hip before the foot is weighted.

[jbooth]

If you look closely you'll see the head of the bat it begins to rotate in going from frame five to frame six. At most there is a very small amount of hip rotation that precedes what some would perceive as shoulder rotation.

But in my opinion this whole discussion is simply a smokescreen skirting around the real issue as to exactly what is being accomplished by this very small amount hip movement prior to when the shoulders start to follow and again it is my contention that the head of the bat moving is the initiation of upper body rotation for high-level players (players that have minimal bat drag and minimal bat lag).

I ask again the questio; exactly what wondrous advantage is there to starting the hips FRACTIONALLY ahead of the shoulders (if indeed that is what is happening).

This whole issue of hips leading the way is in my opinion a joke with respect to really understanding what starting hips early is "allegedly" achieving.

According to Epstein is greater power (rubberbanding). But Epstein advocates counter rotation of the upper body i.e. an extreme amount of differential between hips and shoulders which Hamilton does not exhibit as you hitting 500 foot plus home runs.

So it's not about home run power.

Also counter rotating upper body or creating a large differential between upper body will slow the swing down in terms of how quickly the hitter can get the bat to the ball, IE has the potential to force the player to initiate their swing movement earlier giving them less time to make decisions regarding the flight of the ball.

And then we have the spinning issue which no one has really defined in terms of what the miniscule amount of hip rotation preceding upper body rotation of Hamilton supposedly prevents (prevents spinning).

And last but not least if I'm not mistaken it wasn't hip rotation that HG and retkag were having a problem with which caused them to seek out Yaeger's help.

And it is still undefined/not clear exactly what Yaeger did for either HG and retkag other than they both said that in their opinion he helped them and he was able to explain things better than anyone else whatever that means.

We are chasing a lot of red herrings as well as agendas in these discussions, my not so humble opinion.

Maybe someday you'll understand it, but at this point in time, I don't think you're open to having your mind changed.

Ted Williams and many, many MLB hitters have said, for years, that you have to get the lower body into the swing. Hips lead the hands. The separation of hips and shoulders is important in two aspects. One, it adds power to the swing and two, it allows the lower half to "get going" while you hold the top back, so that you can hit fastballs and change-ups. If you swing as a unit, most of the time you will be late on the fastball, and early on the change. The separation gets the lower half committed so that you can release the top as soon as you recognize fastball, and by not committing the upper body too soon, you can wait on the change up.

This guy hit 586 HR's .537 SLG% and .294 lifetime avg.

Do you NOT see how early his hips turn, and how significant the displacement is between the hips and shoulders?

http://firstpickclub.com/video/robinson1.mpg

No MLB player swings with a one piece turn, that simply sets the hip/shoulder displacement prior to rotating. They may not consciously think of turning the hips, but they DO think of keeping the shoulder in. And, they know that they need to turn the hips, therefore, logic should tell you that if they keep the shoulder in and turn the hips (even unconsciously) that the hips will move ahead of the shoulders.

The insanity reigning here, is yours in thinking the swing is one piece.

There is approximately a 30 degree angle between his hips and shoulders and this angle was not set in his stance or before his stride. He created this angle during the stride and as the front foot is getting weighted.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/frobinsonchp.jpg

[BoardMember]

Well, they're both doing what I think is correct, so however you want to instruct them to do that, I guess, is an individual thing.

And I'm good with that comment.......:thumbsup:

[TDS]

Also counter rotating upper body or creating a large differential between upper body will slow the swing down in terms of how quickly the hitter can get the bat to the ball, IE has the potential to force the player to initiate their swing movement earlier giving them less time to make decisions regarding the flight of the ball.

Paul, I feel quicker by clearing the hips before footplant. I am still trying to figure out the difference between clearing the hips and rotation into footplant. Is this just a play on words?

[Mark H]

Jim and Paul,

I suspect most of your difference here is semantic in terms of when the separation happens. Certainly after the stride/foward by turning there is usually little lag of shoulder rotation after hip rotation. During the stride/foward by turning is when I see most of the "separation" happening.

[hiddengem]

Maybe someday you'll understand it, but at this point in time, I don't think you're open to having your mind changed.

Ted Williams and many, many MLB hitters have said, for years, that you have to get the lower body into the swing. Hips lead the hands. The separation of hips and shoulders is important in two aspects. One, it adds power to the swing and two, it allows the lower half to "get going" while you hold the top back, so that you can hit fastballs and change-ups. If you swing as a unit, most of the time you will be late on the fastball, and early on the change. The separation gets the lower half committed so that you can release the top as soon as you recognize fastball, and by not committing the upper body too soon, you can wait on the change up.

This guy hit 586 HR's .537 SLG% and .294 lifetime avg.

Do you NOT see how early his hips turn, and how significant the displacement is between the hips and shoulders?

http://firstpickclub.com/video/robinson1.mpg

No MLB player swings with a one piece turn, that simply sets the hip/shoulder displacement prior to rotating. They may not consciously think of turning the hips, but they DO think of keeping the shoulder in. And, they know that they need to turn the hips, therefore, logic should tell you that if they keep the shoulder in and turn the hips (even unconsciously) that the hips will move ahead of the shoulders.

The insanity reigning here, is yours in thinking the swing is one piece.

There is approximately a 30 degree angle between his hips and shoulders and this angle was not set in his stance or before his stride. He created this angle during the stride and as the front foot is getting weighted.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/frobinsonchp.jpg


Good luck Jim...you will never get anywhere with this guy and are waisting your time. He'll never admit you know something he doesn't or be open to changing his stance. He's an engineer that thinks he has figured out the most optimal way to swing a bat. Fine so beit. That DOESN'T mean that way will work when you get in the box. It doesn't mean you'll have success using his way, and it sure as heck doesn't mean major league players swing that way.

There was a player on my team earlier this year that had a one piece swing.(no separation). On video you could barely see any separation(What Nyman is advocating) on load and unload of his upper and lower body. The result was, he had no chance on anything hard away, no chance on anything offspeed. He just had to hope they threw it in the one place he could hit (which was something down and usually in), othewise he was done.

We looked at some video together and did some comparisons and he clearly saw what he was doing wrong. He made some adjustments and has had a much better year because of it.

[wogdoggy]

heres some GREAT advice for your 11 yr old..stealth clipped it and I saved it..

keep it simple and read the last sentence very carefully before you give some bufoon your money for a dvd..



Stealth
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 360

Here is a quote from Dmac that might (I doubt) clear things up;

"You fellows have kind of lost me. For me, the bat quickness helped by the hands (arms) comes from the running start. The running start comes from tipping the bat and then letting it rip with the hands without stopping to set the bat.........just going from the time the bat reaches it's farthest point in the tip. Here are some clips starting with Ruth and working the way up to the guys of today like Bonds, Guerrero, Soriano and the young teenager Robert Stock.

"When they tip it forward, they go from there.....they don't start, and then set their hands and then have to start again. Much like the running start I have yapped about with maddux for years

"What he is doing is getting more batspeed with less effort.......a running start. It does not need to be explained to a kid at all......just tell him to get his hands away from the body a little, point the bat at the sky, tip it towards the pitcher and then let it rip. If he asks why, you respond by telling him he will hit the ball a lot farther. When he does, there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever. If he can't do it, then there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever, because it won't matter.

"About 99% of all guys in the big leaguers were not taught the swing. They just found it along the way through emulation, feel or just blind luck. The clip of Williams is great, because he was 48 years old when it was shot and he is ripping the ball and laughing. He is also tipping the bat and then letting it rip. He is also the best hitter who ever walked and had dozens of instructors telling people that he was just a freak and that you should not copy him. They say the same thing about Bonds today, and the only guy who was smart enough to copy him was Robert Stocks dad, and it is paying off. He copies Bond's running start and the kid can hit balls a long way. Everyone else does not copy it because they think it is too hard to do. Mr Oh hit 868 dingers,was 5' 10, weighed 165 and nobody paid attention to his swing in the USA either.

"Last year in September, I saw the Mariners play a 6 game home series and every day I was there early to watch BP. Outside of Richie Sexon who is 6'9", Ichiro hits the ball farther than anyone on that club. He bangs ball after ball off the restaurant in right field which is about 410 ft away. In BP he tips the bat and lets it rip. He is 5'9" and about 160 lbs. In games he does not do it, because with his 3.6 speed, he was taught at a young age to take advantage of it.

"If your kids can run like Ichiro, then they can be dead hands slap hitters, but if they can't, then they better hit like Molitor, Olerud or Brett or better yet, learn to tip it and rip it and they may hit enough home runs and doubles to make their High School coach really like them.

"If you are built like Frank Thomas, you don't need to tip it either. Ted Williams once said that if he could work with Thomas that Frank would hit 80 home runs every year. It never happened.

"Timing it for a good athlete is not hard, what has happened is that nobody has taught it to anybody. What is really hard is setting your bat behind your shoulder, go from a dead start and then expect rotation to bring the bat around and magically hit the ball. That has been taught to many kids.......good luck"
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"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac

[JJA]

I had several conversations with Doug on this over the phone. My point to him is that he is too far removed from the average to below average player to understand their capabilities. Most boys and girls at little league age cannot hit the average fastball, let alone the good fastball. Sure, they don't hit for power either but if you can't hit the average fastball at all you certainly won't be having much fun and won't be in the game long. These type of typical kids can't be mentioned on the same page as Olerud or Brett. Scouting the best of the best and having professional level sons batting cleanup on a Pac-10 team isn't exactly what most of us deal with on a daily basis.

For players of average to below average talent, "tip and rip" isn't what they need. They need to take kindergarten before they go to graduate school. Getting the kids in a good starting position near the launching position, minimizing extraneous movement that kids this age can't control like big league players, providing a quick, efficient swing is the first - but certainly not last - step for many young players. I KNOW it works. Kids are shocked when they see how much quicker they become when their swing becomes more efficient. They suddenly have the ability to hit the best pitcher's fastball rather then being blown down on three pitches as one can see at any little league game.

I told Doug that I my goal would be to hand him players that had swings like Olerud, Brett, and Thomas and his organization could then teach them the advanced stuff like "tip and rip". If I give him players with that type of base, his job would be a lot easier. He didn't disagree with that!