The top 100 pitchers project Round 7: 1986-2007

[jjpm74]

By the 1980s, the role of a starts starts to shift away from a 9 inning person to a 6-7 inning person and the role of the reliever becomes much more specialized.

The following pitchers are no longer active in baseball (with the exception of Curt Schilling who many believe is finished. This is a vote for 15-20. Please note: Pitchers who are currently active will appear on the next poll. I also ask that as with other rounds, we are focusing on playing careers. Please keep the PEDs talk for another thread.

Links to their wiki bios (http://en.wikipedia.org) for anyone interested are also provided, though I assume most here are familiar with this generation of pitchers.

Rick Aguilera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Aguilera)
Kevin Appier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Appier)
Bert Blyleven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Blyleven)
Kevin Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Brown_%28right-handed_pitcher%29)
Tom Browning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Browning)
Roger Clemens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clemens)
David Cone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cone)
Doug Drabek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Drabek)
Dennis Eckersley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Eckersley)
Sid Fernandez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Fernandez)
Chuck Finley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Finley)
John Franco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Franco)
Doc Gooden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Gooden)
Goose Gossage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_Gossage)
Tom Henke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Henke)
Roberto Hernandez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Hernández_%28baseball%29)
Orel Hershiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel_Hershiser)
Charlie Hough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hough)
Doug Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Jones_%28baseball%29)
Jimmy Key (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Key)
Mark Langston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Langston)
Al Leiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Leiter)
Dennis Martinez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Martinez)
Ramon Martinez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramón_Martínez_%28pitcher%29)
Andy Messersmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Messersmith)
Jack Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Morris)
Randy Myers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Myers)
Robb Nen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Nen)
Jesse Orosco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Orosco)
Dan Plesac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Plesac)
Jeff Reardon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Reardon)
Dave Righetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Righetti)
Jose Rijo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Rijo)
Nolan Ryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Ryan)
Bret Saberhagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Saberhagen)
Curt Schilling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Schilling)
Lee Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Smith_%28baseball%29)
Dave Stewart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Stewart_%28baseball%29)
Dave Stieb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Stieb)
Rick Sutcliffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sutcliffe)
Frank Tanana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Tanana)
Fernando Valenzuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Valenzuela)
Frank Voila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Viola)
Bob Welch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Welch_%28baseball%29)
David Wells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wells)
John Wetteland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wetteland)
Todd Worrell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Worrell)

[jjpm74]

Links to previous rounds:

pre-1893 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78102)
1893-1919 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=78755)
1920-1945 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79250)
NeL and pre-NeL (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656)
1946-1968 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79664)
1969-1985 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80460)

pre-1893 winners:

John Clarkson
Tommy Bond
Bob Caruthers
Larry Corcoran
Candy Cummings
Pud Galvin
Tim Keefe
Sliver King
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Charley Radbourne
Al Spalding
John Ward
Mickey Welch

1894-1919 winners:

Chief Bender
Mordecai Brown
Jack Chesbro
Eddie Ciccotte
Clark Griffith
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinty
Kid Nichols
Deacon Phillippe
Eddie Plank
Ed Reulbach
Amos Rusie
Jesse Tannehill
Hippo Vaughn
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Vic Willis
Smoky Joe Wood
Cy Young

1920-1945:

Pete Alexander
Tommy Bridges
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Red Faber
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Waite Hoyt
Walter Johnson
Ted Lyons
Carl Mays
Herb Pennock
Eppa Rixey
Red Ruffing
Urban Shocker
Dazzy Vance
Bucky Walters

NeL and pre-NeL

Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
John Donaldson
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Bill Jackman
Jose Mendez
Satchel Paige
Cannonball Dick Redding
Bullet Joe Rogan
Luis Tiant Sr.
Smoky Joe Williams
Nip Winters

1946-1968

Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Dutch Leonard
Sal Maglie
Juan Marichal
Denny McLain
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Billy Pierce
Robin Roberts
Johnny Sain
Warren Spahn
Dizzy Trout
Virgil Trucks
Hoyt Wilhelm
Early Wynn

1969-1985

Vida Blue
Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
Ron Guidry
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
Jerry Koosman
Mickey Lolich
Sparky Lyle
Tug McGraw
Phil Neikro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Tom Seaver
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant Jr.
Wilbur Wood

Please note that there will be no inactive pitchers added to round 8.

[jjpm74]

I'd also like to remind people that the NeL and pre-Nel round is still open and could use a couple more ballots:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656

[Brad Harris]

Please add a vote for John Franco as I somehow missed that name and have room on my ballot.

Bryan Harvey and Norm Charlton have a case to make this ballot.

[henrich]

I'd also like to remind people that the NeL and pre-Nel round is still open and could use a couple more ballots:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=79656

I'd like to vote, but I'd only cast 3 votes, and that wouldn't be fair, and I don't have the knowledge base here. Sorry.

[bambambaseball]

Sid Fernandez but no Ron Darling? Darling was way better then Fernandez.:eek:

[Brad Harris]

Sid Fernandez but no Ron Darling? Darling was way better then Fernandez.:eek:
Surely you jest?

Darling
136-116 (.540)
364 GS
2360.3 IP
6.06 SO/9IP
1.75 SO/BB
0.91 HR/9IP
1.335 WHIP
3.87 ERA
95 ERA+
42.7 WARP3

Fernandez
114-96 (.543)
300 GS
1866.7 IP
8.40 SO/9IP
2.44 SO/BB
0.92 HR/9IP
1.144 WHIP
3.36 ERA
110 ERA+
52.3 WARP3

I don't have their career win shares or TPR available handily, but why belabor the point?

[leecemark]

--I voted for the max of 20. Probably the top 5 guys I didn't vote for are interchangable with the last 5 I did. Neither group included Darling or Fernandez.

[Paul Wendt]

Please add a vote for John Franco as I somehow missed that name and have room on my ballot.

Bryan Harvey and Norm Charlton have a case to make this ballot.
They do?
Their case for listing in the poll must be shared with others. (Dave Smith?)
There are 16 RPs, 31 SPs, iicc. Relief pitchers do so much less, even with only half as many the differences among them are smaller. :)

This group is a little stronger than the preceding Group 6, in my opinion, judging from my comfort voting for several of their relief pitchers.

I voted for Andy Messersmith and Frank Tanana, not John Franco and Lee Smith.
That may be too much to ask but I didn't scrape the Angels off the very bottom of the barrel either (those would be Dodgers). They are both rather "old" here, with peak seasons slightly earlier than Bly and Ry. But they shouldn't be passed over until round two. Twenty is a full score of men!

[Paul Wendt]

Surely you jest?

I don't have their career win shares or TPR available handily, but why belabor the point?
:eek: but belabor is what we do!

For the second new Baseball Encyclopedia, through the 2004 season, I'll use the present tense. It is my most recent Palmer Encyclopedia.

Pete Palmer lists the top 300 pitchers by Pitcher Wins, or Total Pitcher Index renamed. Sid Fernandez is in a tie for #295-300 with 9.4 wins and Ron Darling doesn't make the cut with -3.7 wins.

By the way, Palmer's top 500 players include 185 pitchers (37%!), all the way down to relievers Gregg Olson and Mike Jackson. I daresay that is based on too much credit for relievers --maybe also for starters, but certainly too much for relievers.
. . . By a different rating that covers relief pitching only, Olson and Jackson are #39tie and #32. The seven guys between them including the tie are Lindy McDaniel, Stu Miller, Paul Quantrill, Mark Eichhorn, Elroy Face, Dan Plesac, and Gene Garber. Back on the list of all pitchers they should be near #185. . . . Ignoring ties, those seven guys among all pitchers rank #205, 162, 265, 179, 196, 219, 196. (Stu Miller #162 worked significantly as a starting pitcher.) I'll take a guess, Palmer ranks less than 40 relief pitchers in his top 200 pitchers and top 500 players, but not many less than 40.

. . . Wilhelm, Rivera, and Gossage rank 20, 32, and 48 among all pitchers . . . 90, 132, and 159 among all players. Evidently the pitchers are thick on the ground in the 130s to 150s. . . . Among all players the other Hall of Fame relievers rank 154 Eckersley, 240 Fingers, 372 Sutter (pitcher #122).

[jjpm74]

This has a few days remaining and could use a few more votes. :)

[Brad Harris]

This has a few days remaining and could use a few more votes. :)

Always happy to vote a second time, but you never let me. :hide:

[jjpm74]

Only a day left. Does anyone else want to weigh in on this group? I thought this would be the group with the most ballots cast. Not the least. :confused:

[STLCards2]

:eek: but belabor is what we do!

For the second new Baseball Encyclopedia, through the 2004 season, I'll use the present tense. It is my most recent Palmer Encyclopedia.

Pete Palmer lists the top 300 pitchers by Pitcher Wins, or Total Pitcher Index renamed. Sid Fernandez is in a tie for #295-300 with 9.4 wins and Ron Darling doesn't make the cut with -3.7 wins.

By the way, Palmer's top 500 players include 185 pitchers (37%!), all the way down to relievers Gregg Olson and Mike Jackson. I daresay that is based on too much credit for relievers --maybe also for starters, but certainly too much for relievers.
. . . By a different rating that covers relief pitching only, Olson and Jackson are #39tie and #32. The seven guys between them including the tie are Lindy McDaniel, Stu Miller, Paul Quantrill, Mark Eichhorn, Elroy Face, Dan Plesac, and Gene Garber. Back on the list of all pitchers they should be near #185. . . . Ignoring ties, those seven guys among all pitchers rank #205, 162, 265, 179, 196, 219, 196. (Stu Miller #162 worked significantly as a starting pitcher.) I'll take a guess, Palmer ranks less than 40 relief pitchers in his top 200 pitchers and top 500 players, but not many less than 40.

. . . Wilhelm, Rivera, and Gossage rank 20, 32, and 48 among all pitchers . . . 90, 132, and 159 among all players. Evidently the pitchers are thick on the ground in the 130s to 150s. . . . Among all players the other Hall of Fame relievers rank 154 Eckersley, 240 Fingers, 372 Sutter (pitcher #122).


I saw a list from 2005 a few days ago, and Rivera has moved up a little bit.

Do you know if Palmer attempts to include defensive support in his Pitcher Wins? I believe hearing that he does, but if not, that will drasticaly change the rankings.

[jjpm74]

We have a good enough turnout. If there are any last minute folks, this has about 15 minutes to go.

[jjpm74]

The following pitchers will advance to the next round:

Bert Blyleven
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Dennis Eckersley
John Franco
Doc Gooden
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Orel Hershiser
Jimmy Key
Dennis Martinez
Jack Morris
Nolan Ryan
Brett Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Dave Stieb
Frank Tanana
Fernando Vanenzuela
David Wells

[Paul Wendt]

I saw a list from 2005 a few days ago, and Rivera has moved up a little bit.

Do you know if Palmer attempts to include defensive support in his Pitcher Wins? I believe hearing that he does, but if not, that will drasticaly change the rankings.
I don't know anything about revisions to Pitcher Wins or Relief Ranking since 2004/2005.

I do know that Palmer & Gillette introduced a new rating of relief pitching appearances at the SABR convention in 2005. I don't recall its name or details. Of course that yields a new rating of relief pitching seasons and careers. If the lifetime leaders are listed in the latest print encyclopedia, I suppose that is under the name I don't recall, rather than "Relief Ranking".