Steve Bartman offered $25,000 for one autograph

[ipitch]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1070512,bartman072308.article

What do you think? I bet he doesn't show.

[sturg1dj]

I saw the clip again and one thing I would like to point out. There were several fans that went for the ball including the person directly in front of Bartman. How glad do you think that guy is that he didn't get a hand on that ball?

[NYMets523]

http://photo.gangus.com/d/26788-2/ackbar.jpg

[Steve Jeltz]

I saw the clip again and one thing I would like to point out. There were several fans that went for the ball including the person directly in front of Bartman. How glad do you think that guy is that he didn't get a hand on that ball?


Moises Alou was quoted earlier this year as saying that he probably would not have caught the ball anyway, even if Bartman was not there.

[Zito75]

Wow. I can't believe the Cubs fans are still beating this dead horse. If I were Bartman, I'd take the $25K and move as far away as possible.

[Mattingly]

Since $25k is a sizeable percentage of most people's salaries, and presuming he intends to pay his federal and state taxes on this, if I were him, I'd just bring the photo ID, take the money and run. I'd also check all the exits to make sure that someone "interesting" and fairly large wasn't waiting for me. :eek:

Of course, I'd do this before the playoffs, since if the Cubs' run doesn't happen to work out, his name may be remembered. However, if the Cubs do go all the way (win or lose), he may be "forgiven" for his unintentional misdeed, especially if the Cubbies win it all.

[StanTheMan]

I would signif I were him.....

To Cub Nation,

The Marlins scored 8 FREAKING runs after the play. Blaming me is idiotic, and another example of the most misguided fans in sports.

Your Pal, Steve Bartman

[Brooklyn]

Moises Alou was quoted earlier this year as saying that he probably would not have caught the ball anyway, even if Bartman was not there.

It would have been nice if he had said that immediately after the game, instead of waiting 5 years

[SamtheBravesFan]

Moises Alou was quoted earlier this year as saying that he probably would not have caught the ball anyway, even if Bartman was not there.

Then he pulled a 180 and said he would have caught it at some point.

[Ubiquitous]

I would signif I were him.....

To Cub Nation,

The Marlins scored 8 FREAKING runs after the play. Blaming me is idiotic, and another example of the most misguided fans in sports.

Your Pal, Steve Bartman

That would be almost ironic I think if he signed it that way since he is/was a Cubs fan and it was him and his reaching out in a misguided attempt to snare another ball (that is right he already caught one earlier in the game) that helped lead to the 8 freakin runs.

[KCGHOST]

Yep, the fans are hot to bust Bartman's chops while overlooking Alex Gonzalex letting a routine grounder go right through his legs.

[Gary Dunaier]

That would be almost ironic I think if he signed it that way since he is/was a Cubs fan and it was him and his reaching out in a misguided attempt to snare another ball (that is right he already caught one earlier in the game) that helped lead to the 8 freakin runs.

The ball was already in the stands, so Bartman (and the other fans nearby) were within their rights to try for the ball.

[bob]

They need a scapegoat, every time the cubs look to threaten they cock it up all by themselves. Its easier to blame it entirely on 1 person in 1 play than say "Well throughout the whole series we were just second best, try again next year though".

[Ubiquitous]

The ball was already in the stands, so Bartman (and the other fans nearby) were within their rights to try for the ball.


Well you also have the right to take a hammer to your knee but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

[Stumanji]

Well you also have the right to take a hammer to your knee but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Are you serious?

You would have reached for it. We all would have.

I'm not going to sit in my seat and let a ball hit me in the face because I think, maybe, this guy might leap into the stands and catch it.

On top of that, after sitting in the 100-level seats at Safeco Field a dozen or more times, having not had one ball come within 30 feet of me, there's no way I'm backing off a chance to get my hands on a foul ball, especially a playoff ball, hit right to me. 99.9% of all fans would have reacted the same way that Bartman did.

Anyone that says they would have backed off to let Alou catch it is living a lie.

[ipitch]

Not too surprisingly, Bartman won't be attending.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3503093&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

ROSEMONT, Ill. -- Steve Bartman has refused yet another offer to cash in on the moment he became the most famous -- or infamous -- Chicago Cubs fan in history.

Bartman friend Frank Murtha says that Bartman won't accept an offer of $25,000. For the money, all Bartman would have to do is attend the National Sports Collectors Convention in Rosemont and autograph a photograph of himself tipping a foul ball that seemed destined for Cubs outfielder Moises Alou's glove during a 2003 playoff game with the Florida Marlins.

Bartman was vilified by Cubs fans, who thought that he helped prevent the team from reaching the World Series. Alou has made conflicting statements on whether he would have caught the ball.

Bartman has declined all offers to make appearances or money off his brush with fame.

[Ubiquitous]

Are you serious?

You would have reached for it. We all would have.

Actually I wouldn't have, considering I've been in similar situations and I got out of the way of my home team trying to make the play.


I'm not going to sit in my seat and let a ball hit me in the face because I think, maybe, this guy might leap into the stands and catch it.
So BArtman acted in self defense? That is a novel defense.


On top of that, after sitting in the 100-level seats at Safeco Field a dozen or more times, having not had one ball come within 30 feet of me, there's no way I'm backing off a chance to get my hands on a foul ball, especially a playoff ball, hit right to me. 99.9% of all fans would have reacted the same way that Bartman did.


Yeah and Bartman already caught one foul ball in the game. Considering he was a Cubs fan I would think he would have a stronger desire to see his Cubs in the World Series then catching a second foul ball.
Anyone that says they would have backed off to let Alou catch it is living a lie.[/QUOTE]

[StanTheMan]

That would be almost ironic I think if he signed it that way since he is/was a Cubs fan and it was him and his reaching out in a misguided attempt to snare another ball (that is right he already caught one earlier in the game) that helped lead to the 8 freakin runs.

This is where the Cub fans lose me, and lose respect. Ubiq... I don't know if you are a Cubs fan or not... and can't be bothered right now to check your profile or review your prior posts.... sorry.

Bartman did NOTHING to cause 8 runs to score. Period He touched a ball that MOISES ALOU said he could not have even caught. For argument's sake lets say he DID prevent an out for being recorded. It was NOT the 3rd out of the inning, iirc. I simply cannot say he had ANYTHING to do whatsoever with causing 8 runs to score. To do so, or even to suggest one out not recorded even HELPED LEAD TO 8 runs (Ubiq's words above) is borderline suggesting that one does not truly understand the game, more specifically does not understand the relationship between one play, or one out, and subsequent plays later in the game.

It's akin to saying after a 10-2 loss. "If we could have just scored that run in the second inning to tie the game at 2-2, I'm sure we would have won, as they would have NEVER scored the other 8 later in the game."

It just doesn't work like that. Baseball is NOT that linear.

My OP was not intended to be ironic at all, but rather a sharp smack in the face from Bartman to Cub nation that the need to re-think the play, the game, the series, and how they inadvertenly place blame on Bartman.... when in reality it is merely misplaced blame that should be squarely on the team, imo.

Heck, they even lost game 7, after having a lead. What's next... Blaming Bartman for causing them NOT to have a big enough lead late the game after he touched the ball?

A good example is Cardinal fans, to be honest. Game 6, 1985 World Series, Don Dekinger blows a call at first late in the game. I don't run into Cardinal fans who don't remember Jack Clark's error later that game... or the fact that John Tudor completely butchered game 7, and the whole team imploded, generating MORE blame for themselves that Dekinger should get.

Cub fans also conveniently forget that the NEXT season, the Cubs won MORE games than the Bartman year, yet finished a dozen games or so out of first place. The Bartman team, hailed as the BEST in a long time by Cubs fans (until this year, really) was in reality mediocre when compared to other good teams' in its own division in the last 10 or so years. Sure, 2003 was a tough year to swallow for the Cubs fans, but they have never been good at understanding reality anyway. (apologies for painting with a broad brush there.) Heck, the blew up the Bartman ball... COOKED THE PIECES of it, and placed water vapor from the cooking into a pasta dish and ATE THE BALL at a restaurant. Ridiculous.

[Ubiquitous]

IF ALou catches it, and ALou later claimed he never made the statement that he wouldn't have caught it, then it is two outs with Pierre on 2nd. IF everything else happens then at the end of the 8th it is 3-2 Cubs. 7th game in all probability never happens and the Cubs go to the World Series.

Is Bartman completely to blame for the Cubs failure in 2003? Of course not, but he isn't some innocent guy either free from blame. He screwed up and his screw up helped keep his favorite team from going to the World Series.

Is it Bill Buckners fault that the Red Sox didn't win the World Series? No, but he is partly to blame for that failure in 1986.


I'm not happy with what Bartman did, I'm not happy with how Dusty Baker managed that team and in that playoffs, and I'm not happy with Alex Gonzalez and his performance. Talking about Bartman doesn't absolve the others and their mistakes.

[Ubiquitous]

Also Cubs fans don't conveniently forget about 2004 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007. In 2004 the Cubs were the wild card leaders with 6 games to go and they totally wet the bed and went 1-5 in those last games and Cubs fans were furious with the team. 2005 was a huge disappointment and when they did even worse in 2006 they canned Dusty and spent hundreds of millions of dollars to get a better team and appease the fans.


As for the ball, a restaurant bought the ball as a promotional stunt. That wasn't Cubs nation doing that, putting that at the feet of Cubs fans is too broad a brush.

[StanTheMan]

Ubiq... ok... pretty much agree with you, to a point. BUT........



As soon as Baker's managing,

Or Gonzalez glove,

or any Cub hitter making a single out with RISP any other time after Bartman touched that ball either in game 6 or 7,

or any Cub pitcher giving up a hit with RISP instead of getting a single out gets EQUAL blame as Bartman, then one would have to immediately stop painting with such a broad brush.

But we both know Bartman gets nearly infinite amounts of blame moreso that those mentioned above, so I paint away. Whether or not I do so fairly or unfairly is simply a matter of interpretation of what happened after the Steve touched the ball. If it was the first ever foul ball that was worth 8 runs in the more than 125 year history of MLB, then I am glad I was alive to see it? yeah, that's gotta be it.

[Florida White Sox]

They need a scapegoat, every time the cubs look to threaten they cock it up all by themselves. Its easier to blame it entirely on 1 person in 1 play than say "Well throughout the whole series we were just second best, try again next year though".
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k243/So_Fla/cubschoke.jpg

[Ubiquitous]

Ubiq... ok... pretty much agree with you, to a point. BUT........



As soon as Baker's managing,

Or Gonzalez glove,

or any Cub hitter making a single out with RISP any other time after Bartman touched that ball either in game 6 or 7,

or any Cub pitcher giving up a hit with RISP instead of getting a single out gets EQUAL blame as Bartman, then one would have to immediately stop painting with such a broad brush.

But we both know Bartman gets nearly infinite amounts of blame moreso that those mentioned above, so I paint away. Whether or not I do so fairly or unfairly is simply a matter of interpretation of what happened after the Steve touched the ball. If it was the first ever foul ball that was worth 8 runs in the more than 125 year history of MLB, then I am glad I was alive to see it? yeah, that's gotta be it.


Alex Gonzalez got run out of town in 2004. The bloom was off Baker after his 2003 playoff debacle and the fans vs Baker after that was very antagonistic.

As for getting a hit with RISP the Cubs scored 6 runs in game 7, 8 in game 1, 12 in game 2, 5 in game 3, and 8 in game 4. The offense was not the problem in that series. The problem was Bakers insane usage of his pitchers in that series.

[Gary Dunaier]

Is it Bill Buckners fault that the Red Sox didn't win the World Series? No, but he is partly to blame for that failure in 1986.

The game was already tied when Buckner made his error. Even if he had made the play, all that would have happened is that the game would have gone into the 11th inning.

[Ubiquitous]

So are you saying Buckner is blameless?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

A good example is Cardinal fans, to be honest. Game 6, 1985 World Series, Don Dekinger blows a call at first late in the game. I don't run into Cardinal fans who don't remember Jack Clark's error later that game... or the fact that John Tudor completely butchered game 7, and the whole team imploded, generating MORE blame for themselves that Dekinger should get.


And what gets forgotten is that the the runner, Jorge Orta, who was the beneficiary of the blown call DIDN'T SCORE. He was forced out at third just a few pitches later. Here is the play by play from retrosheet.org.

-ROYALS 9TH: MOTLEY BATTED FOR SHERIDAN
-WORRELL REPLACED DAYLEY (PITCHING)
-ORTA BATTED FOR MOTLEY
-Orta singled to first
(This is the famous missed call by Denkinger)
-Balboni singled to left [Orta to second];
-foul messed up by Clark near dugout-no error
-CONCEPCION RAN FOR BALBONI
-On a bunt Sundberg forced Orta (pitcher to third) [Concepcion to second]
MCRAE BATTED FOR BIANCALANA
-Porter allowed a passed ball [Concepcion to third, Sundberg to second]
-McRae was walked intentionally
-WATHAN RAN FOR MCRAE
-IORG BATTED FOR QUISENBERRY
Iorg singled to right [Concepcion scored, Sundberg scored, Wathan to second]
2 R, 3 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Cardinals 1, Royals 2.

[Trickyhop]

You can't blame Bartman for anything. There's no way Alou makes that stupid catch. He showed his true bad sportsmanship that day with his whiney little act. What a panzy. The Marlins had way too much momentum to lose that game, Bartman, Gonzalez or not.

I <3 teh Bart!

Not really.

[Ubiquitous]

Yes but obviously the whole complexion of that inning changes if Orta doesn't get on. That isn't to say it would benefit the Cards but if Orta is out and Balboni singles then Sundberg doesn't bunt then regardless of what happens the PB won't happen and their won't be a need to IBB walk McRae.

In order to get two men on Sundberg would have to find a way to get on without recording an out.

[ipitch]

And what gets forgotten is that the the runner, Jorge Orta, who was the beneficiary of the blown call DIDN'T SCORE. He was forced out at third just a few pitches later.

It's probably forgotten because it's not important that Orta was forced out. When Orta was forced out, the Royals still had a runner on base that shouldn't be on base, and there was still one less out then there should have been.

About the only thing that could erase the bad call would have been a GIDP by Balboni.

[StanTheMan]

On the bunt that allowed Orta to be forced at third, the Cards could have made the out at second (potentially) or at first (definitely) instead of getting Orta at third. That leaves one runner on, and Iorg is the TYING run at that point... his hit brings in ONE run max, and maybe not even a run at all, if the Cards forced Concepcion at sedond on the bunt.

The Royals would have needed another hit, maybe two in all likelihood.

Regardless, the Royals won the game, they might have won it anyway if Denkinger does not butcher the call. The Royals might have needed three hits all with 2 outs..... BUT it is hightly unlikel the Royals would have even BUNTED had Orta been called out at first.

This is what I am getting at. If Alou somehow makes a catch, you could make the case that 8 runs scoring immediately is highly improbable. But you cannot say that a singe run scored because of Bartman, just like I can't say Dekinger blew the game, and the series for the Cards. He did neither, and really did nothing more than make the game slightly easier for the Royals to win.

[Ubiquitous]

Well, actually I can say a single run was Bartman's fault. I can even say that eight runs were Bartman's fault. Furthermore I can even say that it is Bartman's fault that the dinosaurs are extinct. That is the beauty of sports and the beauty of opnion.

[StanTheMan]

Personally, I choose not to make ridiculous statments like that. It's the beauty of contributing intelligently to a terrific message board, or the beauty of a good, healthy baseball debate among friends of mine, or even the stranger sitting next to me at the ballpark....

[timothy]

I'd have went for it. Even if I was a Cubs fan and that out meant Cubs go to World Series... there ya have it... Now I would take the 25 K and run... Isn't he even out of Chicago yet?

[NYMets523]

So are you saying Buckner is blameless?

His error is foolishly blamed as the reason the Red Sox didn't win the WS in 1986. Calvin Schiraldi came in to start the 10th. He got 2 quick outs and then gave up 3 hits which scored a run. Then Stanley came in and threw a wild pitch because he and Barret mixed up signs. That allowed the tying run to come in and Knight (winning run) to go to 3rd. Buckner had to race to the base since Stanley didn't break to the bag after Mookie hit it. Mookie was likely going to be safe. Even if he wasn't, the game just goes to the 11th.

Next game, Schiraldi comes in the 7th the score tied 3-3. He gives up a HR to Knight to lead off the inning and just unravels again.

You can blame Buckner for going 6-32 with 1 RBI but blaming him for that play is dumb.

[Ubiquitous]

So blaming Buckner for making a fielding error would be dumb?

[NYMets523]

Blaming him for making an error is different than blaming him for the Red Sox losing the WS.

[Ubiquitous]

Blaming him for making an error is different than blaming him for the Red Sox losing the WS.

Who is blaming him for losing the WS?

[StanTheMan]

Who is blaming him for losing the WS?

The same guy who posted "I can even say that eight runs were Bartman's fault." Perhaps that guy?

I understand the effect and point about the sentence immediately following that in your original post, but not all here will. The written word can be interpreted in violently different manners, of course.

Buckner's error is incorrectly blamed for several obvious reasons.

It was a routine play.
It ended the game
The team lost the next game
He did not hit well that series
His usual defensive replacement was not inserted into the game at that point

IMO, he allowed a hit. The fact that he did it memorable and spectacular fashion certainly encourages those looking to place blame to look squarely in his direction, when in fact his play was no different (in relation to the final score) than a Boston batter not getting a hit with RISP in that game, or a Boston pitcher not getting an out w RISP at any point in the same game.

Not to mention the next game.

Bartman is even LESS of a factor, as he's just a fan in the stands, and his play was recorded as a strike on the batter... always a positive thing for the pitcher.... he had nothing to do with the eight runs that followed. Yet Cub fans still point fingers in his direction... they are a crazy lot indeed, those that bleed Cubbie Blue. I'll bet you a beer that you could walk up to a random Cub fan and they would not know either #1 8 runs scored AFTER Bartman or #2 The final score of Game 7, or significant details of RISP situations that might have turned the tide in the Cubs favor.

Good for Steve for NOT signing anything related to that photo of him and Moises.

[shoreyart]

well, if not for Buckner, the Sox would have probably not even made it that far- he was an integral part of their success leading up to that- its a shame he was remembered only for that---thats the way it goes, right Leon Durham?

[ReignInBlood]

I think had Moises Alou not reacted the whiny way he did, we wouldn't even be talking about this subject right now. It would have gone completely unnoticed.

[Imgran]

Bartman is not Maier.

The play did not cause any runs. That play did not even end the at bat in which it was made. Get real people, the epic collapse of the cubs in '03 was the whole club's fault, not some poor fool in the stands who did what most fans would do in exactly the same situation.

[Mild Sauce]

Wow. I can't believe the Cubs fans are still beating this dead horse. If I were Bartman, I'd take the $25K and move as far away as possible.

It's not the Cubs fans, it's the media. From what I heard, the guy offering the money isn't even a Cubs fan. Talk to Cubs fans and you'll find that 95% of them don't blame the guy at all. There's too many other things that went wrong to blame the guy, and most Cubs fans are smart enough to know that. There's Moises Alou to blame for flipping out, there's Dusty Baker to blame for not going out there and calming everyone down after it initially happened, there's Alex Gonzalez to blame for booting the double play ball that would've ended the inning, there's Mark Prior to blame for letting all of this get to him, there's Dusty Baker to blame again for not going out to calm Prior down, the second time that inning that someone should've come out to calm everything down, but he failed miserably.

This is the way that almost every Cubs fan sees it. The people going on about Bartman are not the normal Cubs fans, it's the media that's creating everything. Almost every Cubs fan is over the whole Bartman thing and has been for several years now. A whole lot of us never really blamed him in the first place. Was I mad at him for doing that at the time? Yes, but like already mentioned, if it wasn't him it would've been someone else, and I realized that even just minutes after it happened.

To state my conclusion once again, it's not the Cubs fans that keep bringing this guy up again, it's just the media who then goes on to say that Cubs fans still hate the guy despite that not being true for 95% of them (and what team doesn't have a 5% of their fans that are complete morons?).

[NJMetfan4life]

I'm suprised he didn't change his name.

[Stumanji]

Actually I wouldn't have, considering I've been in similar situations and I got out of the way of my home team trying to make the play.

Actually, you WOULD have. I guarantee it. You may sit here saying you WON'T reach for a ball that might be caught, if the fielder makes a great play, but I know better - there's this thing called "The Moment", and you would have been caught up in it.


So BArtman acted in self defense? That is a novel defense.
Nope, didn't say anything about him acting in self-defense. I'm saying I would act in self-defense. I'd act in greed too. I want that ball. Unlike him though, I would have caught it.

Yeah and Bartman already caught one foul ball in the game. Considering he was a Cubs fan I would think he would have a stronger desire to see his Cubs in the World Series then catching a second foul ball.

Like many others have said, it was completely the Cubs fault they lost. If Alou has ten feet of room and he drops it for a foul ball, no one would be blaming HIM for the loss.

[Ubiquitous]

Actually, you WOULD have. I guarantee it. You may sit here saying you WON'T reach for a ball that might be caught, if the fielder makes a great play, but I know better - there's this thing called "The Moment", and you would have been caught up in it.

Really, you know I would have? Even after I just said that in similar plays I didn't?



If Alou has ten feet of room and he drops it for a foul ball, no one would be blaming HIM for the loss.

I'm not sure who HIM is but if it is Alou then they most certainly would have been blaming him for the loss.

[spark240]

I can even say that it is Bartman's fault that the dinosaurs are extinct. That is the beauty of sports and the beauty of opnion.

I do not think that word, "beauty," means what you think it does.

[spark240]

Bartman has declined all offers to make appearances or money off his brush with fame.

Kind of refreshing, really...

[Ubiquitous]

I do not think that word, "beauty," means what you think it does.

Thank you for the reply.

[StanTheMan]

Really, you know I would have? Even after I just said that in similar plays I didn't?





I'm not sure who HIM is but if it is Alou then they most certainly would have been blaming him for the loss.

The Cubs have had the lead, at home, late in a game that would clinch the NL Pennant AND a trip to the WS exactly how many times in your lifetime....

AND in games that you attended?

AND had a ball hit your direction?

AND had a Cub fielder in the area?

AND you were in the front row, or within five feet of the ball?


Puh-lease.

[Ubiquitous]

The Cubs have had the lead, at home, late in a game that would clinch the NL Pennant AND a trip to the WS exactly how many times in your lifetime....

AND in games that you attended?

AND had a ball hit your direction?

AND had a Cub fielder in the area?

AND you were in the front row, or within five feet of the ball?


Puh-lease.


Please what? I've been in earthquakes that were the biggest and deadliest in almost a century, I've been in buildings on fire, I've been in situations where I and others have been drowning, I've been in various car accidents where people have been injured, I lived in a crime ridden area with automatic gun fire erupting weekly on my street, I've had guns pointed at me, on several occasions I have been stuck by knives, I've been in floods, tornadoes, and have been in numerous major blowups in my employment. A good chunk of my pay is based on not losing my head in times of stress and pressure and doing what is necessary. So please you and others can stop your armchair prognositication from 3,000 miles away on a person you neither know or have met. I'm not some 3 year old kid who has no ability to control his own emotions or is oblivious to his surroundings. If I've been to games where I haven't interfered with a play because I wanted my team to record that 2nd out in the 3rd inning of a meaningless game I think I could control myself in my teams most important game in decades.

[ipitch]

Actually, you WOULD have. I guarantee it. You may sit here saying you WON'T reach for a ball that might be caught, if the fielder makes a great play, but I know better - there's this thing called "The Moment", and you would have been caught up in it.


So, you've never seen a person shy away from a foul ball? It happens every game.

[sturg1dj]

So, you've never seen a person shy away from a foul ball? It happens every game.

agreed

just like some people lean over the side and interfere and some don't. Some fans are paying attention and know what the situation calls for and some do not. Some are also boozed up and some are not. Some have headphones on and some do not.

[cosmo34]

So, you've never seen a person shy away from a foul ball? It happens every game.


I did earlier this year at a Royals/Orioles game. The ball bounced and ended up 2 feet away from me tucked underneath the seat. I could have had it if I immediately scrambled down underneath the seat in front of me, but since I had a 38 dollar (ahem) beverage in my hand, I decided against it. My friend was actually closer to the ball and he didn't move either (he too had one of those beverages that cost as much as a botox treatment).

As a Cubs fan, I can honestly say that I would not have jumped in the way of a player potentially making a play. It's just a freaking ball. You are sitting in grounds that a player can get to a ball. 30 years from now would you rather say "Yea I deflected a ball that Moises had a chance to catch in the 6TH GAME OF THE NLCS. OH BY THE WAY MY FAVORITE TEAM HADN'T WON A WORLD SERIES IN ALMOST A MILLENIA AND IF THEY WON THIS GAME THEY WERE ONE STEP CLOSER TO CHANGING THAT." or "Yea, I came close to a ball at a game once". I would much rather have done the latter. You can go to the friggin team store, buy a ball, ruff it up on the ground, and pass it off as a foul ball so you can look cool. I did that at a Brewers/Yanks game when I was 11. Whooopideefriggindoo, you got a ball. Nobody cares.

With that said, I don't blame Bartman completely for the loss. His moronic antics certainly didn't help, but it wasn't the end of the series (nor was Buckner). But that doesn't mean that Steve should be let off the hook. He interfered with an out in a HUGE game, he deserves to pay the consequences.

[Imgran]

Alou. Had. No. Play.

It was close if there was no one in the stands, but at that angle that close to the wall, Ichiro Suzuki isn't bringing that in if even one fan reaches for the ball out of the 20 or so who could have done.

Also, the Alou noncatch didn't even end the at bat in which it went down.

That play didn't result in diddly-squat. Wake up, people!

[Ubiquitous]

Also, the Alou noncatch didn't even end the at bat in which it went down.


That. Is. Kind. Of. The. Point.

[Imgran]

That. Is. Kind. Of. The. Point.

No, the point is that no run scored as a direct result of Alou not squeezing that baseball on the fly. The at bat continued, but at bats have continued after muffed catches in foul territory before. Usually a pitcher just bears down, executes the pitch, and gets out of it with no further damage done.

You have to build a Rube Goldberg machine of causes and effects in order to blame anything at all on Bartman.

And can we come back to the point where you admit finally that Alou had no play on the ball?

[Ubiquitous]

really, you have to build a Goldberg machine?

Alou catches ball now there is 2 outs. Tada no goldberg machine needed.

And no we are not going to finally come to the part where I admit Alou wouldn't have caught it. Alou had a play on the ball and a fan interfered. That fan gave the Marlins an extra out to work with and they took advantage of it. Bartman is not an innocent in the debacle that ensued.

[Ubiquitous]

Hmm maybe we should you know check with the guy who was trying to make the play. What does he think?

Once again, Moises Alou wants to set the record straight: He swears he would have caught Luis Castillo's foul ball in the 2003 National League Championship Series if Cubs fan Steve Bartman hadn't reached over the left-field railing and gotten in his way.

"I had it,'' Alou said Wednesday in the Mets' clubhouse. "I make that catch, (the playoffs would have been a) different story.''



So what about this supposed statement of his in which he says he wouldn't have caught it?

"I don't remember that,'' he said. "If I said that, I was probably joking to make (Bartman) feel better. But I don't remember saying that.''

So why don't you finally admit that Alou could have made the catch?

[StanTheMan]

He might have had a play..... but the lack of a catch there does NOT immediately cause ONE run to score... much less eight of them.

I just consider myself lucky. Our parents saw Mantle and Aaron. Our Grandfathers were fortunate to have seen Williams, Mays and Musial. Our Great Grandfathers (if yours is still alive) might have been fortunate to have seen both Ruth and Dimaggio.

I have seen the only time in the more than 125 year history of this great game when a foul ball not caught was worth eight runs to the opposition. It may never happen again. I am so lucky that I can hardly type this.

[Imgran]

really, you have to build a Goldberg machine?

Alou catches ball now there is 2 outs. Tada no goldberg machine needed.

Except that if the Cubs execute the next sequence of events like a competent baseball team there are STILL two outs, Bartman or no Bartman.

And does the term "two out rally" mean nothing to you? Two outs means absolutely nothing other than that the Marlins can't trade an out for a run, which wouldn't have helped them anyway.

Also -- and this is the greatest folly of the Bartman-blamers -- assuming that what happened around a play is exactly what would still have happened if you exorcized the play is absolute foolishness. All of the factors that led to Prior's collapse were still right there whether a fan reaches for a baseball in a playoff game or not.

Bartman's folly has no *direct* effect, at all, on anything that took place after it. The absolute most you could blame on Bartman is, perhaps, one run scoring if they'd had to trade a run for an out. Anything beyond that is at least 99.999% on the players in the field.

And no we are not going to finally come to the part where I admit Alou wouldn't have caught it. Alou had a play on the ball and a fan interfered. That fan gave the Marlins an extra out to work with and they took advantage of it. Bartman is not an innocent in the debacle that ensued.

Alou had no play on that baseball. It was slicing into the stands at a point 5-6 feet over his head. Best case scenario for Alou, it ricochets off the top of the wall or something -- still way closer to the fans than the outfielder. Alou's never really had that much vertical and he was already on the decline defensively. He was also on the way DOWN from his leap when the ball landed. Even if the fans do nothing it's more likely to hit a fan than it is to hit Alou's glove. No way he makes that catch. If he had, it would have been an absolutely INCREDIBLE play.

Willy Mays in his prime maybe makes the spectacular leaping catch that a ball descending at that angle and disappearing from the field of play that far off the ground requires. But not a 36-year-old Moises Alou. Maybe in what he uses for a head it was closer than it really was but he does not make that play.

[ipitch]

Alou had no play on that baseball. It was slicing into the stands at a point 5-6 feet over his head.

Alou certainly had a play. Whether he would have caught it, nobody knows. Would he really get so angry over a ball that he thought was out of his reach?

[Imgran]

That photo's a bit deceptive. Alou was on his way DOWN at the time and the ball is not falling straight down -- it's slicing. If he times his jump absolutely perfectly he might just have a crack at it but he went up just a little too soon.it's not exactly a high-probability play.

Also am I the only one who notices Guy In A Gray Jacket also reaching for the ball?

[StanTheMan]

Also am I the only one who notices Guy In A Gray Jacket also reaching for the ball?


That guy is Bart Steveman. Not quite as famous.....

[Mild Sauce]

That guy is Bart Steveman. Not quite as famous.....

Haha, good one. Like I mentioned earlier, if he hadn't touched it, someone else would've. Alou didn't have to freak out, Dusty Baker could've come out right there and calmed everyone down, Alex Gonzalez didn't have to botch that surefire double play ball soon after to get them out of the inning with a win, Dusty Baker again could've come out and calmed everyone down. Mark Prior also didn't have to let all of this get to him. It was the Cubs through and through that cost themselves this one, not Steve Bartman.

[StanTheMan]

And not Bart Steveman either.

[Trickyhop]

Doesn't even look like Alou would have made that catch in that photo, and that's a VERY generous angle.

[Trickyhop]

Please what? I've been in earthquakes that were the biggest and deadliest in almost a century, I've been in buildings on fire, I've been in situations where I and others have been drowning, I've been in various car accidents where people have been injured, I lived in a crime ridden area with automatic gun fire erupting weekly on my street, I've had guns pointed at me, on several occasions I have been stuck by knives, I've been in floods, tornadoes, and have been in numerous major blowups in my employment. A good chunk of my pay is based on not losing my head in times of stress and pressure and doing what is necessary. So please you and others can stop your armchair prognositication from 3,000 miles away on a person you neither know or have met. I'm not some 3 year old kid who has no ability to control his own emotions or is oblivious to his surroundings. If I've been to games where I haven't interfered with a play because I wanted my team to record that 2nd out in the 3rd inning of a meaningless game I think I could control myself in my teams most important game in decades.

Wait, what?

[StanTheMan]

Wait, what?

He's such a cool customer (and has survived stabbings... or at least has had a few operations) that if his favorite team were up late in a game that would clinch their first pennant in nearly 60 years and possibly have a chance to win their first WS since George Burns was less than 10 years old.....

He would be able to see a ball off the bat and know that even though it was slicing through the night sky, know it was coming RIGHT at him, take his eyes off it enough to judge the pace, path, and possible play for the outfielder, then find the ball again, adjust for the wind at this point, judge the fielder once again as the ball is coming down, see that he might have a play or at least would be in the general area, and then decided to NOT try to catch the ball, and perhaps even be able to prevent others from catching it also, so that the fielder would be unobstructed.

I'm still doubting it, and probably sound like a complete azzhat in making my point. But the fact that I am probably less than 3,000 miles from him, all should be forgiven. Just as he no doubt forgave the guys who were making it rain bullets outside the window of his house.

Lastly to equate life threatening situations at work to a foul ball in a playoff game is just a bit shortsided, imo.

[Stumanji]

So, you've never seen a person shy away from a foul ball? It happens every game.

I see fans shy away from line-drives into the stands. People that are holding food or beverage tend to choose their $37 investment over a ball, sure.

But lazy fly balls into the stands, coming DIRECTLY at you?

Really, the only thing that bothers me is the "I'll let the foul ball go if I think my team has a shot at reaching into the stands to catch it" statements.

I just don't buy it.

[The Fonz]

fans DO shy away from fouul balls when the home team is trying to make a play. However, it is not always the case because instinct wants you to reach for the ball.

however, blaming bartman on the cubs choking is insane.


Now beltran in game 7 of the 06 NLCS...that's a different story, lol.

[Imgran]

fans DO shy away from fouul balls when the home team is trying to make a play. However, it is not always the case because instinct wants you to reach for the ball.

however, blaming bartman on the cubs choking is insane.


Now beltran in game 7 of the 06 NLCS...that's a different story, lol.

Well yeah -- unlike Bartman, Beltran was actually a player in uniform on the field, for one thing.,

[Seattle1]

Who wants to see the actual seat that Steve Bartman sat in? If you're superstitious, the seat number ends in 13!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40a_tDIcjbc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Iiqb4K17V8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WhMfSNsyks&feature=related



"Bartman Ball" destroyed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib8s3Ozgccc