Vote for best player of each franchise

[NYMets523]

ESPN is having a "Vote for the best player of each franchise". Kinda like the Hometown Hero a couple years ago.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?page=bbtnfranchisegreats


Baseball Tonight Results:
Cards: Stan Musial; Bob Gibson; Lou Brock
Reds: Johnny Bench; Pete Rose; Frank Robinson
White Sox: Frank Thomas; Luke Appling; Nellie Fox
Blue Jays: Carlos Delgado; George Bell; Tony Fernandez
Astros: Craig Biggio; Jeff Bagwell; Larry Dierker
Expos: Vladamir Guerrero; Andre Dawson; Gary Carter
Cubs: Ernie Banks; Billy Williams; Sammy Sosa
Brewers: Robin Young; Paul Molitor; Cecil Cooper
Diamondbacks: Randy Johnson; Luis Gonzalez; Steve Finley
Padres: Tony Gwynn; Dave Winfield; Trevor Hoffman
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera; Mike Lowell; Dontrelle Willis
Royals: George Brett; Hal McRae; Frank White
Pirates: Honus Wagner; Roberto Clement; Willie Stargell
Rays: Carl Crawford; Aubrey Huff; Scott Kazmir
Angels: Garret Anderson; Nolan Ryan; Tim Salmon
Twins: Walter Johnson; Rod Carew; Harmon Killebrew
Indians: (Post if you recall them)
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.; Edgar Martinez; Ichiro Suzuki
Mets: Tom Seaver; Darryl Strawberry; Mike Piazza
Rockies: Todd Helton; Larry Walker; Dante Bichette
Athletics: Rickey Henderson; Lefty Grove; Jimmie Foxx
Tigers: Ty Cobb; Al Kaline; Charlie Gehringer
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez; Rafael Palmeiro; Juan Gonzalez
Braves: Hank Aaron; Warren Spahn; Chipper Jones
Phillies: Mike Schmidt; Steve Carlton; Robin Roberts
Red Sox: Ted Williams; Carl Yastrzemski; Roger Clemens
Yankees: Babe Ruth; Lou Gehrig; Joe DiMaggio
Orioles:
Dodgers:

[Ubiquitous]

oh goody Lou Brock is a choice, now to set up a bot . . .

[NYMets523]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Johnny Bench
White Sox: Luke Appling
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Roberto Alomar
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Andre Dawson
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Mike Lowell
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Carl Crawford
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Todd Helton
A's: Rickie Henderson
Orioles: Cal Ripken, Jr.
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Duke Snider

The White Sox, A's, and Dodgers were tough for me. White Sox I don't know a whole lot about. A's had a lot of good choices. Went with Henderson because, as Bill James says, if you split him in half you have 2 Hall of Famers. Dodgers had great choices but it's hard to pick one. Campanella's career was unfortunately cut short, Koufax could have pitched longer but the Dodgers were dumb and wouldn't let him pitch only 6 innings after his injury.

[Brad Harris]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Johnny Bench
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Roberto Alomar
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Gary Carter
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Scott Kazmir
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Larry Walker
A's: Lefty Grove
Orioles: Cal Ripken, Jr.
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Roy Campanella

[Mattingly]

Not that my vote amounts to much, but here it is anyway:

Reds: Johnny Bench
Cards: Stan the Man
White Sox: Eddie Collins
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Roberto Alomar
Astros: Nolan Ryan
Nats/Les Expos: Vladimir Guerrero
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Paul Molitor
D’Backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn (easiest vote by far, though Winfield is notable)
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Scott Kazmir
Angels: Garret Anderson
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Tris Speaker (though I know that Bob Feller will always get more votes)
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr
Mets: Tom Seaver (why even mention anyone else?)
Rockies: Todd Helton
Athletics: Rickey Henderson
Orioles: Brooke Robinson
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Alex Rodriguez
Braves: Hammerin’ Hank Aaron (the true King)
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams (like there was ever a doubt)
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Sandy Koufax

[GiambiJuice]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Johnny Bench
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Carlos Delgado
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Tim Raines
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Carl Crawford
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Kirby Puckett
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Larry Walker
A's: Jimmie Foxx
Orioles: Cal Ripken, Jr.
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Duke Snider

[KCGHOST]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Frank Robinson
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Carlos DelGado
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Tim Raines
Cubs: Cap Anson
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Scott Kazmir
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Tris Speaker
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Todd Helton
A's: Jimmy Foxx
Orioles: Eddie Murray
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Duke Snider

[NYMets523]

Baseball Tonight started this tonight. They did the Cardinals. Musial was #1, Gibson was #2, and Brock was #3. The fans voted for Musial #1, Ozzie Smith #2, and Gibson #3.

[numchuckskillz]

Cardinals: Stan Musial
Reds: Pete Rose
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays but I almost voted for Bonds =)
Blue Jays: Carlos Delgado
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Vladimir Guerrero
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Paul Molitor
Diamondbacks: Randy Johsnon (pretty easy)
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Roberto Clemente
Rays: Carl Crawford
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Kirby Puckett
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Todd Helton
A's: Rickey Henderson
Orioles: Cal Ripken Jr.
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Sandy Koufax

[philkid3]

ESPN's "best" baseball minds came up with Lou Brock as the third best Cardinal ever.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

[NYMets523]

Better than the fans voting Ozzie Smith as the 2nd best Cardinal ever.

[stejay]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Johnny Bench
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Roberto Alomar
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Pedro Martinez
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Randy Johnson
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Scott Kazmir
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Larry Walker
Oakland A's: Lefty Grove
Orioles: Cal Ripken, Jr.
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams/Babe Ruth
Yankees: Babe Ruth/Joe DiMaggio
Dodgers: Sandy Koufax

[KCGHOST]

I guess Hornsby's 10 years in ST. Louis wasn't enough to get him on this list.

[philkid3]

Better than the fans voting Ozzie Smith as the 2nd best Cardinal ever.

Actually, I think it's worse than that. Not necessarily saying a whole lot, but I think Oz is closer to the second best Cardinal than Brock is to the third best Cardinal.

And the BBTN crew SHOULD be smarter than the fans.

[NYMets523]

It's definitely worse. Smith is a career 262/337/328 hitter. Lou Brock's career numbers are much better.

[OleMissCub]

I'm scratching my head with these folks putting Clemente before Wagner on the Pirates list.

I know lay people don't look at things like this, but compare their WARP3 numbers.

Wagner 203 >>>>> Clemente 127

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm scratching my head with these folks putting Clemente before Wagner on the Pirates list.

I know lay people don't look at things like this, but compare their WARP3 numbers.

Wagner 203 >>>>> Clemente 127

Most lay people have never even heard of Honus Wagner.

[Old Sweater]

I'm scratching my head with these folks putting Clemente before Wagner on the Pirates list.

I know lay people don't look at things like this, but compare their WARP3 numbers.

Wagner 203 >>>>> Clemente 127

What do you think they would be if the 2 had switched era's? Early NL baseball wasn't exactly the strongest.

[philkid3]

It's definitely worse. Smith is a career 262/337/328 hitter. Lou Brock's career numbers are much better.

One was an elite fielding shortstop, the other was a terrible fielding corner outfielder. That's a .261 EqA for Smith and a .281 for Brock. With the positional and defensive advanatage, I'll take Oz.


WARP3 is lazy, of course, but as a simple glimpse, Oz had five seasons with a higher total than Brock's best and another just short.


One argument I can see for Brock is how much of his production was as a Cardinal, where he didn't do much for the Cubs while Smith did a bit for the Padres. Brock has a runs created advantage in St. Louis of 1367 to 955, but Smith's best seasons are pretty close to brocks, and, again, that's just hitting. The defensive and positional advantage is huge for Smith (and he also stole bases at a slightly better rate).

[philkid3]

I'm scratching my head with these folks putting Clemente before Wagner on the Pirates list.

I know lay people don't look at things like this, but compare their WARP3 numbers.

Wagner 203 >>>>> Clemente 127

On another board people were making all sorts of funny choices for their top three. Like Joe Jackson as a White Sock, or leaving Wagner off the Pirates list.

[OleMissCub]

What do you think they would be if the 2 had switched era's? Early NL baseball wasn't exactly the strongest.

I think Clemente would have hit 224 home runs a season and batted .782 cuz like, players back then, like totally sucked and stuff. In today's game, Honus Wagner would have only been like Jay Bell or something...maybe not even that.

[philkid3]

So Charles Johnson isn't a candidate for the Marlins.

WTF? I understand you're only voting for one player, but they're listing the top three and he's VERY arguably one of the top three.

[Old Sweater]

I think Clemente would have hit 224 home runs a season and batted .782 cuz like, players back then, like totally sucked and stuff.

Just stating it isn't to sound of proof comparing WARP3 stats of 2 different era's with the early NL being one of the weakest era's of all time. Plus Clemente was able to command the same playing position his whole career unlike Wagner. Wagner was in his 4th or so season before he played SS.

Clemente played 2194 games out of 2370 in RF.

Wagner played SS in 1887 games and 888 games at other positions.

To me if you're considered the games best SS you should be able to man the defensive position most of your career and not 5.7 seasons at other positions.

[OleMissCub]

Just stating it isn't to sound of proof comparing WARP3 stats of 2 different era's with the early NL being one of the weakest era's of all time. Plus Clemente was able to command the same playing position his whole career unlike Wagner. Wagner was in his 4th or so season before he played SS.

Clemente played 2194 games out of 2370 in RF.

Wagner played SS in 1887 games and 888 games at other positions.

To me if you're considered the games best SS you should be able to man the defensive position most of your career and not 5.7 seasons at other positions.

Your logic is flabbergasting. Ozzie Guillen played more games at SS than Honus Wagner. By your logic, Guillen is a more worthy SS?

Furthermore, what does playing one position have to do with anything as far as being the "greatest" of a franchise. Ernie Banks played half his career at short and the other half at first. I guess Mark Grace should be the franchise choice since he played his entire career at first base.

[NYMets523]

Tonight they did the Reds

BBTN:
Bench
Rose
Robinson

Fans:
Rose
Bench
Bucky Walters

[OleMissCub]

Tonight they did the Reds

BBTN:
Bench
Rose
Robinson

Fans:
Rose
Bench
Bucky Walters

Hilarious. No JoeMo or Frank.

Two guys that are intriguing and difficult to place are Tris Speaker and Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson is a difficult guy to classify because I believe his best seasons came with the Indians, however his fame (or infamy) is with the White Sox. Furthermore, if he hadn't been thrown out of the game, it is likely he would have stayed with the White Sox most of the rest of his career. So he is hard to classify.

Tris Speaker is in the same boat as well. He had 9 seasons with the BoSox and 11 with the Indians. Like Jackson, I think his best years came with his first team, the Red Sox. However, 8 of his seasons with the Indians were as player/manager and he led them to a World Series in 1920.

[philkid3]

When I was doing top three for the Reds (on another board), they were one of the harder teams. Basically, there were five guys I could be fine with. I decided on Bench, Rose and Larkin. Morgan wasn't there for that long compared to others, but he was pretty damn awesome in that time and very influential. And he's primarily considered a Red. Frank Robinson had a good argument, but I put him, as a Red, behind the other four.

[NYMets523]

White Sox tonight

BBTN:
Frank Thomas
Luke Appling
Nellie Fox

Fans:
Frank Thomas
Nellie Fox
Carlton Fisk

[philkid3]

I knew the fans wouldn't vote for Appling. In a thread of over 100 people ranking their top threes, I was one of only two people who named Appling (who I could argue for No. 1).

Almost everyone did say Joe Jackson, though, which I thought was lazy and hilarious.

[Mattingly]

Tonight they did the Reds

BBTN:
Bench
Rose
Robinson

Fans:
Rose
Bench
Bucky Walters
Didn't Joe Morgan vote for himself? I thought that his name was inseparable from the Big Red Machine. :rofl: :dance

[NYMets523]

Last night was the Giants. BBTN panel and fans voted the same.

Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Christy Mathewson

[Yankeefan94]

Cards - Rogers Hornsby
Reds - Frank Robinson
White Sox - Joe Jackson
Giants - Willie Mays
Blue Jays - Carlos Delgado
Astros - Nolan Ryan
Nationals - Vlad Guerrero
Cubs - Ernie Banks
Brewers - Robin Yount
D-Backs - Randy Johnson
Padres- Tony Gwynn
Marlins - Gary Sheffield
Royals - George Brett
Pirates - Honus Wagner
Rays - Carl Crawford
Angels - Nolan Ryan
Twins - Walter Johnson
Indians - Tris Speaker
Mariners - Alex Rodriguez
Mets - Tom Seaver
Rockies - Todd Helton
Athletics - Jimmie Foxx
Orioles - Frank Robinson
Tigers - Ty Cobb
Rangers - Ivan Rodriguez
Braves - Greg Maddux
Phillies - Mike Schmidt
Red Sox - Ted Williams
Yankees - Babe Ruth :eek: (This pick was so unexpected!!)
Dodgers - Mike Piazza

There are so many guys that could have won for two different teams but narrowly missed. It's interesting that Frank Robinson was my only multiple winner.

And how the hell did Rogers Hornsby not end up as, at least, the second best Cardinal ever?? That would be like choosing Elroy Face, Dave Parker, and Bill Mazeroski as the three best pirates ever.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:. I think that the fans of baseball need some :hp

[philkid3]

The Blue Jays was failure.

Fans
1. Joe Carter
2. Roy Halladay
3. Roberto Alomar

BBTN
1. Carlos Delgado
2. George Bell
3. Tony Fernandez


That's failure.

[NYMets523]

They did the Astros tonight but I missed it. I usually watch the later showing but they didn't replay it.

[OleMissCub]

They did the Astros tonight but I missed it. I usually watch the later showing but they didn't replay it.

It was...

ESPN
1 - Biggio
2 - Bagwell
3 - Dierker

Fans
1 - Biggio
2 - Bagwell
3 - Ryan

[sturg1dj]

Cards: Stan Musial
Reds: Johnny Bench
White Sox: Frank Thomas
Giants: Willie Mays
Blue Jays: Dave Steib
Astros: Jeff Bagwell
Expos: Tim Raines
Cubs: Ernie Banks
Brewers: Robin Yount
D'backs: Luis Gonzalez
Padres: Tony Gwynn
Marlins: Miguel Cabrera
Royals: George Brett
Pirates: Honus Wagner
Rays: Scott Kazmir
Angels: Nolan Ryan
Twins: Walter Johnson
Indians: Bob Feller
Mariners: Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mets: Tom Seaver
Rockies: Larry Walker
Oakland A's: Rickey Henderson (crazy, I know)
Orioles: Eddie Murray
Tigers: Ty Cobb
Rangers: Ivan Rodriguez
Braves: Hank Aaron
Phillies: Mike Schmidt
Red Sox: Ted Williams
Yankees: Babe Ruth
Dodgers: Jackie Robinson

[sturg1dj]

The Blue Jays was failure.

Fans
1. Joe Carter
2. Roy Halladay
3. Roberto Alomar

BBTN
1. Carlos Delgado
2. George Bell
3. Tony Fernandez


That's failure.

my pick was none of the above....I picked Dave Steib...and what about Fred McGriff?

[philkid3]

my pick was none of the above....I picked Dave Steib...and what about Fred McGriff?

I picked Stieb as well. He should have been top three. I think Alomar should have been as well.

After that I could have gone with either Delgado or Fernandez.

[NYMets523]

Tonight was the Expos.

BBTN:
Vlad
Dawson
Carter

Fans:
Dawson
Raines
Vlad

[philkid3]

Dawson over Raines?

Um. . . whatever, Baseball Tonight.

[OleMissCub]

Cubs are tonight...

I'm going to go with

1 - Banks
2 - Sosa
3 - Sandberg

[Mild Sauce]

I gotta go:

1. Anson
2. Banks
3. Sandberg

[NYMets523]

The results were:

BBTN
Banks
Williams
Sosa

Fans
Banks
Sosa
Sandberg

[Mild Sauce]

I'm surprised at the lack of love for Anson, but then again, I think he may be too long ago for most fans to really appreciate, but his retiring prompted a change in the name of the franchise from the White Stockings to the Orphans.

[NYMets523]

Brewers

BBTN and Fans
Yount
Molitor
Cooper

Diamondbacks

BBTN
Johnson
Gonzalez
Finley

Fans
Johnson
Gonzalez
Webb


Padres

BBTN
Gwynn
Winfield
Hoffman


Marlins

BBTN
Cabrera
Lowell
Willis

Fans
Cabrera
Sheffield
Conine

[NYMets523]

BBTN/Fans

Royals
George Brett/George Brett
Hal McRae/Jeff Montgomery
Frank White/Brett Saberhagen

Rays
Carl Crawford/Carl Crawford
Aubrey Huff/Scott Kazmir
Scott Kazmir/Fred McGriff

Angels
Garret Anderson/Nolan Ryan
Nolan Ryan/Garret Anderson
Tim Salmon/Tim Salmon

Twins
Walter Johnson/Kirby Puckett
Rod Carew/Walter Johnson
Harmon Killebrew/Harmon Killebrew

Mariners
Ken Griffey, Jr./Ken Griffey, Jr.
Edgar Martinez/Edgar Martinez
Ichiro Suzuki/Ichiro Suzuki

Mets
Tom Seaver/Tom Seaver
Darryl Strawberry/Mike Piazza
Mike Piazza/Darryl Strawberry

[KevinWI]

Angels
Garret Anderson/Nolan Ryan
Nolan Ryan/Garret Anderson
Tim Salmon/Tim Salmon

Wow, I forgot Ryan played for the Angels. :confused:

[zahavasdad]

Joe Jackson wasnt even ON the White Sox List

[NYMets523]

Does anyone remember the BBTN results for the Indians? I missed those.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Joe Jackson wasnt even ON the White Sox List

His best years were in Cleveland, outside of 1920.